Sagarin FCS Top 10 Ratings

[Schism55]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26388&stc=1

Flame on....

[centennial]

Oh boy. Here comes the CAA crowd crying bloody murder.

[caribbeanhen]

That looks like a billboard top 40 circa 1964

Beatles
Beatles
Beatles
Beatles
Beatles

[wcugrad95]

I am not saying this won't be proven wrong, but with YSU at 3-5 still being the #8 team in this, that explains a lot about why all the teams get such high ratings when computers are involved. YSU is not a top-25 team (much less a top-8). But every competitive loss they play against other teams in their conference helps that team's ranking when it really shouldn't. I do think the MVFC is the best conference and has teams that are capable of deep runs and/or winning it all, but that kind of anomaly inflates the conference in regards to rankings and polls and skews all the non-MVFC teams lower.

[Reign of Terrier]

Fake News

[Gangtackle11]

Garbage in equals garbage out.

Yet to see a computer make a block, tackle,
or throw a pass.

This thread = 5 seconds of my life I won’t get back.

[TheKingpin28]

I am just going to enjoy to watch the CAA, SoCon, and SL fanboys cry about some hard facts.

[JayMYou]

Sagarin Rating + $1.00 gets you something from the dollar menu.

https://media.tenor.com/images/064b1f8b178d07abd3e047ff222180a1/tenor.gif

[Gangtackle11]

I am just going to enjoy to watch the CAA, SoCon, and SL fanboys cry about some hard facts.

Time to go walk Fido again. Button up its starting to get cold out there.

[Gangtackle11]

Rankings are so off.....he forgot SIU, ISUb & Mizzou State.

[katss07]

Whuuuuuuu? Youngstown? The coaches poll is better.

[TheKingpin28]

Time to go walk Fido again. Button up its starting to get cold out there.

Cry more about it.

[Catatonic]

Rankings are so off.....he forgot SIU, ISUb & Mizzou State.
Perfect response. Nicely done, sir

[Redbird 4th & short]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26388&stc=1

Flame on....

agree this is utter bullspit ... how on earth are we 4 spots behind USD ??? And OMG ... only one ahead of YSU ... utter garbage !!!!! We're currently tied for 2n, but this has us in 6th place. We need to withdraw our FCS membership effective immediately ... we're done with all of this injustice !!!

xdrunkyxxdrunkyxxdrunkyxxdrunkyx or maybe this is the alcohol talking

[WestCoastAggie]

A 3-5 team is really the 8th best team in the country, according to Jeff Sagarin?

https://i.imgur.com/gT83EWF.gif

[citdog]

A 3-5 team is really the 8th best team in the country, according to Jeff Sagarin?

https://i.imgur.com/gT83EWF.gif

They'd beat that 8-0 team you follow which is masquerading as a top 10 team by 5 touchdowns...

[Kemo]

A 3-5 team is really the 8th best team in the country, according to Jeff Sagarin?

https://i.imgur.com/gT83EWF.gif

To be fair, that 3-5, #8 ranked team took the #1 team to overtime, lost by 3 to the #3 team on the road, beat the #4 team, lost by 5 to the #6 team on the road, and took a P5 program to overtime as well. Sagarin factors in score differential and strength of opponent, so that's why they are still are ranked where they are. Of course, Sararin doesn't factor in the injuries and the current mental state of the YSU program.

This isn't suggesting that people should still rank YSU in their top 25 (I don't have them in it); But how many teams in the FCS would have fared better, or even as well, as the Penguins did with that schedule? I'm thinking the answer is about 10, tops.

BTW, I love that GIF. Laugh every time I see it.

[No_Skill]

They'd beat that 8-0 team you follow which is masquerading as a top 10 team by 5 touchdowns...

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/250x250/23266068/hes-right-you-know.jpg

[WestCoastAggie]

They'd beat that 8-0 team you follow which is masquerading as a top 10 team for by 5 touchdowns...

No TF they wouldn't. No BS, but we would shock YSU and make Coach Bo have a meltdown on the field. Brandon Parker and our OL would keep Lamar Raynard clean, allowing him to look like Tom Brady in completing passes to at least 8 different receivers. Meanwhile, our Defense led by Julian McKnight, Jonathan Taylor and Jerry Rice Award Candidate Franklin "Mac" McCain would contribute in causing turnovers.

A healthy A&T is not Robert Morris or Central Conn. No offense guys.

[citdog]

No TF they wouldn't. No BS, but we would shock YSU and make Coach Bo have a meltdown on the field. Brandon Parker and our OL would keep Lamar Raynard clean, allowing him to look like Tom Brady in completing passes to at least 8 different receivers. Meanwhile, our Defense led by Julian McKnight, Jonathan Taylor and Jerry Rice Award Candidate Franklin "Mac" McCain would contribute in causing turnovers.

A healthy A&T is not Robert Morris or Central Conn. No offense guys.

Cool story bro but you are the only one who thinks it is true. How many playoff games has the meac lost in a row???

[Lorne_Malvo]

No TF they wouldn't. No BS, but we would shock YSU and make Coach Bo have a meltdown on the field. Brandon Parker and our OL would keep Lamar Raynard clean, allowing him to look like Tom Brady in completing passes to at least 8 different receivers. Meanwhile, our Defense led by Julian McKnight, Jonathan Taylor and Jerry Rice Award Candidate Franklin "Mac" McCain would contribute in causing turnovers.

A healthy A&T is not Robert Morris or Central Conn. No offense guys.

Lol, they would break it off in your collective asses.

And FU for making me defend YSU.

[Daytripper]

Sagarin puts way too much weight to perceived strength of MVFC. YSU? UNI? Really? Not saying UCA or SHSU should be in top ten, but this is ridiculous on its face.

[caribbeanhen]

Virus alert virus alert Russian hackers are sending Kool-Aid through the inter-webs

Central Arkansas and Jacksonville State beats a half those Valley teams

[Grandpa]

They should arrest sagarin for fraud, impersonating a real pollster. WTF!

[Catbooster]

The internet is a funny place. I haven't seen anyone's ballot with anything close to this yet people are defending it as if they agree with it.

[WestCoastAggie]

Lol, they would break it off in your collective asses.

And FU for making me defend YSU.

Question: Have you seen A&T play at all this year? If not, then have a seat please.

[citdog]

Question: Have you seen A&T play at all this year? If not, then have a seat please.

I have. That's a 5th place team in a real conference.

[caribbeanhen]

Question: Have you seen A&T play at all this year? If not, then have a seat please.

West Coast I have a question for you
will we get a chance to see them play this year or are you contractually obligated to go play in that bowl game?

I think a lot of people on AGS would really like to see you guys play a good team and see what happens

[caribbeanhen]

I have. That's a 5th place team in a real conference.

Does that mean they would be near the top in the Southern conference ?

[NoVABison]

No TF they wouldn't. No BS, but we would shock YSU and make Coach Bo have a meltdown on the field. Brandon Parker and our OL would keep Lamar Raynard clean, allowing him to look like Tom Brady in completing passes to at least 8 different receivers. Meanwhile, our Defense led by Julian McKnight, Jonathan Taylor and Jerry Rice Award Candidate Franklin "Mac" McCain would contribute in causing turnovers.

A healthy A&T is not Robert Morris or Central Conn. No offense guys.

I honestly hope A&T is in the FCS playoffs, so we can see how well they do. I have not seen A&T play this year, but I have seen some of the other MEAC teams playing on Thursday night's on ESPNU, and wasn't impressed with the level of play.

I remember in 2013, South Carolina State had the "#1 Defense" (based on the statistics), and in the chipper, that "#1 Defense" did not fare too well.

[Gangtackle11]

Cry more about it.

Cry? It’s plain laughable. Even a homer MVFC fan should be able to see that.

[citdog]

Does that mean they would be near the top in the Southern conference ?
Nope they'd be right behind JMU in the caa though...

[WestCoastAggie]

I have. That's a 5th place team in a real conference.

So lets break this down. If we're a 5th place team in a "real conference" and someone brings up a hypothetical matchup between us and an 8th place team in this "real conference."

Shouldn't the 5th place team be favored over the 8th place team?

It's not like we're talking about beating ND State, which would be a stretch for all but 3-4 FCS teams. But saying YSU would drag A&T up and down a field because they played a tough schedule is asinine at best. YSU doesn't even have a QB, and our defense lives for stopping the run.

But whatever...

[citdog]

So lets break this down. If we're a 5th place team in a "real conference" and someone brings up a hypothetical matchup between us and an 8th place team in this "real conference."

Shouldn't the 5th place team be favored over the 8th place team?

It's not like we're talking about beating ND State, which would be a stretch for all but 3-4 FCS teams. But saying YSU would drag A&T up and down a field because they played a tough schedule is asinine at best. YSU doesn't even have a QB, and our defense lives for stopping the run.

But whatever...

The only thing worse than meac refs is the quality of play in that league. Still waiting for the number of playoff games in a row that league lost before just deciding that y'all were tired of being whipped.

[WestCoastAggie]

I honestly hope A&T is in the FCS playoffs, so we can see how well they do. I have not seen A&T play this year, but I have seen some of the other MEAC teams playing on Thursday night's on ESPNU, and wasn't impressed with the level of play.

I remember in 2013, South Carolina State had the "#1 Defense" (based on the statistics), and in the chipper, that "#1 Defense" did not fare too well.

That SC State team didn't have something that you need in the post-season; a passing game effective enough to move the chains and help keep their defense off the field.

A&T has an LT and a QB that are in Payton Award discussions, and a WR corps that's one of the deepest in FCS. Our coaching staff also has the ability to call a more aggressive offensive attack, which is what was needed to make a playoff game more competitive than how we did in Richmond last year.

But it's "Celebration Bowl or Bust" right now.

[WestCoastAggie]

The only thing worse than meac refs is the quality of play in that league. Still waiting for the number of playoff games in a row that league lost before just deciding that y'all were tired of being whipped.

If ESPN came knocking on the SoCon's door with a $2 million dollar bowl game pay day, y'all take the offer too. They didn't care about are "sad" playoff losing streak.

[citdog]

That SC State team didn't have something that you need in the post-season; a passing game effective enough to move the chains and help keep their defense off the field.

A&T has an LT and a QB that are in Payton Award discussions, and a WR corp that's one of the deepest in FCS. Our coaching staff also has the ability to call a more aggressive offensive attack, which is what was needed to make a playoff game more competitive than how we did in Richmond last year.

But it's "Celebration Bowl or Bust" right now.

It's CORPS. That was an awful long speil to say "the meac can't compete nationally so we ran away."

[citdog]

If ESPN came knocking on the SoCon's door with a $2 million dollar bowl game pay day, y'all take the offer too. They didn't care about are "sad" playoff losing streak.

They wouldn't though because there are no pc virtue signal points to be won in the SoCon.

[Redbird 4th & short]

No TF they wouldn't. No BS, but we would shock YSU and make Coach Bo have a meltdown on the field. Brandon Parker and our OL would keep Lamar Raynard clean, allowing him to look like Tom Brady in completing passes to at least 8 different receivers. Meanwhile, our Defense led by Julian McKnight, Jonathan Taylor and Jerry Rice Award Candidate Franklin "Mac" McCain would contribute in causing turnovers.

A healthy A&T is not Robert Morris or Central Conn. No offense guys.
maybe not any more, but prior to UNI game 2 weeks ago after which the injuries took a toll, they would have beaten NC A&T by 3-4 TDs minimum.

So let's talk about recent NC A&T performances:

Oct 28 - bye
Oct 21 - beat FCS #63 Beth Cook at home by just 4
Oct 14 - beat FCS #98 FL A&M at neutral site by just 11
Sep 30 - beat FC #99 SC ST on road by just 14

Signature win is FBS Charlotte (1-7) by 4, who would currently rank #42 if in FCS

That isn't a top 25 resumes, much less top 10.

YSU plays top 5-15 FCS teams almost EVERY WEEK, and was losing by FGs, until the MVFC grind wore them down by our game. Granted, they lacked depth to overcome it, but YSU was without doubt a top 10 team until 2 weeks ago. And now they will fight to finish 7th in MVFC.

You mentioned their Central CT win . which was by score of 59-9. Note, Central CT ranks #65, right behind the #63 team you just beat by 4.

[TheKingpin28]

Cry? It’s plain laughable. Even a homer MVFC fan should be able to see that.

Have you thought, that if YSU did not lose almost their entire offense, they would still be in the top 10? The Valley is actually that good when comparing teams head to head. The problem is, they beat each other up and knock each other out of the game, and that causes parity to exist. It is a simple process that anti-MVFC homers do not want to admit.

[Lorne_Malvo]

Question: Have you seen A&T play at all this year? If not, then have a seat please.

Yes. But you keep on with your bad self.

[caribbeanhen]

Have you thought, that if YSU did not lose almost their entire offense, they would still be in the top 10? The Valley is actually that good when comparing teams head to head. The problem is, they beat each other up and knock each other out of the game, and that causes parity to exist. It is a simple process that anti-MVFC homers do not want to admit.

so why did Illinois State lose to a Southland conference team in the playoffs last year?

[Gangtackle11]

Have you thought, that if YSU did not lose almost their entire offense, they would still be in the top 10? The Valley is actually that good when comparing teams head to head. The problem is, they beat each other up and knock each other out of the game, and that causes parity to exist. It is a simple process that anti-MVFC homers do not want to admit.


So only MVFC teams lose players & therefore only they should stay in a top 10 poll? You can’t actually believe you have 7 of the top 10 teams in the FCS. Do you really?

Please go walk your cute little doggie now & think this over.

[caribbeanhen]

Nope they'd be right behind JMU in the caa though...

if that were true that would make them the Southern conference champions

[citdog]

if that were true that would make them the Southern conference champions

It would?

[TheKingpin28]

so why did Illinois State lose to a Southland conference team in the playoffs last year?

You mean a 6-5 team that had no business being in the playoffs? Yeah the bubble was weak and they got in. They also lost to ISUb and EIU. No one would even dare argue they were good last year.

[TheKingpin28]

So only MVFC teams lose players & therefore only they should stay in a top 10 poll? You can’t actually believe you have 7 of the top 10 teams in the FCS. Do you really?

Please go walk your cute little doggie now & think this over.

Never said that, but if YSU did not lose almost everyone on offense, no reason to believe that MVFC does not have 4 in the top 10 and 6 in the top 15/20. You are one of the biggest anti-MVFC out there and we know you enjoy riding the coattails of the CAA to claim it as part of "your" success, but the truth is, right now, The Valley has 5 out of 15 spots that they could claim and it would be hard to argue against it. There is a reason why people rely on Sagarin for ratings and positioning, as it is usually correct and accurate, except when it does not fit your narrative.

[WestCoastAggie]

maybe not any more, but prior to UNI game 2 weeks ago after which the injuries took a toll, they would have beaten NC A&T by 3-4 TDs minimum.

So let's talk about recent NC A&T performances:

Oct 28 - bye
Oct 21 - beat FCS #63 Beth Cook at home by just 4
Oct 14 - beat FCS #98 FL A&M at neutral site by just 11
Sep 30 - beat FC #99 SC ST on road by just 14

Signature win is FBS Charlotte (1-7) by 4, who would currently rank #42 if in FCS

That isn't a top 25 resumes, much less top 10.

YSU plays top 5-15 FCS teams almost EVERY WEEK, and was losing by FGs, until the MVFC grind wore them down by our game. Granted, they lacked depth to overcome it, but YSU was without doubt a top 10 team until 2 weeks ago. And now they will fight to finish 7th in MVFC.

You mentioned their Central CT win . which was by score of 59-9. Note, Central CT ranks #65, right behind the #63 team you just beat by 4.

Concerning Charlotte, WE were up 28-17 on a team with 85 full scholarships at the end of the 3rd Qtr. That was a team that was "supposed" to beat us.

With SC State, their defense is outstanding one that ranks in the top 10 of total defense. Meanwhile, Bethune-Cookman sports one of the best passing defenses around, averaging somewhere around 170 yards per game.

FAMU was a wash, but that was because the majority of the team came down with the flu. We played two teams with a portion, if now their whole defense ranking somewhere in the top 10 in all of the FCS, or played a team while a majority of the team was sick. I will agree that we should've looked better against FAMU, but good teams win games where they don't play anywhere near their best.

Lastly, we blasted Gardner-Webb 45-3.

[Redbird 4th & short]

so why did Illinois State lose to a Southland conference team in the playoffs last year?
I smell bait ?

6-5 ISUr went on road to 9-2 UCA had them soundly beaten thru Q3, until two 4th qtr special teams gaffes .. blocked punt for TD, followed shortly recovered onside kick (from their 50 after penalty) put them on our 37 and gave them FG .. first time either happened to us all year. This handed them 10 points in Q4, plus momentum swing. Only then was the 9-2 SLC team able to beat the 6-5 MVFC team at home by 7. Just 2 special teams gaffes, or 6-5 ISUr beats 9-2 UCA on their field. And we won't even get into the officiating that game, which was noticed by many non-ISU fans here on AGS ....

[Gangtackle11]

Never said that, but if YSU did not lose almost everyone on offense, no reason to believe that MVFC does not have 4 in the top 10 and 6 in the top 15/20. You are one of the biggest anti-MVFC out there and we know you enjoy riding the coattails of the CAA to claim it as part of "your" success, but the truth is, right now, The Valley has 5 out of 15 spots that they could claim and it would be hard to argue against it. There is a reason why people rely on Sagarin for ratings and positioning, as it is usually correct and accurate, except when it does not fit your narrative.

Stop moving the goal posts. The Sagarin poll is 7 of 10 spots not 5 of 15. That is the current argument here. Thanks, I wear my badge proudly when it comes to exposing the MVFC propaganda machine. xpeacex Glad to be recognized.

[Gangtackle11]

I smell bait ?

6-5 ISUr went on road to 9-2 UCA had them soundly beaten thru Q3, until two 4th qtr special teams gaffes .. blocked punt for TD, followed shortly recovered onside kick (from their 50 after penalty) put them on our 40 and gave them FG .. first time either happened to us all year. This handed them 10 points in Q4, plus momentum swing. Only then was the 9-2 SLC team able to beat the 6-5 MVFC team at home by 7. Just 2 special teams gaffes, or 6-5 ISUr beats 9-2 UCA on their field. And we won't even get into the officiating that game, which was noticed by many non-ISU fans here on AGS ....

Check out the officiating in the Villanova-SDSU playoff game last season. Please don’t go this route. It doesn’t show you well.

[NorthChuckSouth]

https://media.tenor.com/images/dc150662d4971024d4c27b087897dbff/tenor.gif
AGS when they saw YSU at number 8

[caribbeanhen]

You mean a 6-5 team that had no business being in the playoffs? Yeah the bubble was weak and they got in. They also lost to ISUb and EIU. No one would even dare argue they were good last year.

This post must've came out of the left side of your mouth in your next post came out of the right side of your mouth

plenty of Valley fans were defending the selection of Illinois state to the playoffs last year

[Redbird 4th & short]

Check out the officiating in the Villanova-SDSU playoff game last season. Please don’t go this route. It doesn’t show you well.
didn't see that game, so don't know.

But I'm just responding to post who's inference required some clarification and context. ISUr vs UCA wasn't two 8-3 teams playing on neutral field, where one team won and clearly outplayed the other team. And since were talking conferences ... were talking about how a 4-4 MVFC team nearly beat an 8-1 SLC team on their field. Which paints a little different picture than poster was suggesting.

No big deal, just repainting the picture with proper context.

[TheKingpin28]

Stop moving the goal posts. The Sagarin poll is 7 of 10 spots not 6 of 15. That is the current argument here. Thanks, I wear my badge proudly when it comes to exposing the MVFC propaganda machine. xpeacex Glad to be recognized.

I do the same with the STATS and Coaches Poll with the East Coast Bias towards the CAA. I am just here to ensure that homerism is ignored and facts are argued, something that you are afraid to do. If YSU was not injured it would not be close and no reason to believe that if SDSU wins, that 4 teams will be in the T10. If they lose, but keep it close and ISUr/WIU is a close game, expect to see another 5 in the top 15. Hell, if UNI beats USeD, we could see 6 in the T15.

The reason why Sagarin has them rated like that (outside of YSU being broken in half) is that if you were to put those teams on a neutral field, there is no reason that those teams could not beat anyone not named JMU.

You are telling me that: NDSU, SDSU, UNI, ISUr, and WIU could not beat SHSU (needed 59 minutes to beat NW St), Elon, JSU (who looks like a joke and even their fans are starting to question their own team), Wofford (who can't win a competitive game by more than 1 score), NCAT (rofl), NAU (who got curb stomped by WIU at home), and SUU (who beat UNI by a FG with less than 2 minutes remaining at home and Weymiller DNP in 5 games).

I would say UCA should be in the T10 and NAU has an argument as well, but you take out YSU and that leaves 6.

SO: NDSU, JMU, USeD, SDSU, WIU, UNI, ISUr, (YSU), JSU, NAU, UCA would be the top 11. Yeah I think that is completely fair that all the teams would beat the others except JMU.

[TheKingpin28]

This post must've came out of the left side of your mouth in your next post came out of the right side of your mouth

plenty of Valley fans were defending the selection of Illinois state to the playoffs last year

Well they were wrong and it completely shocked me that they got in at 6-5.

[caribbeanhen]

didn't see that game, so don't know.

But I'm just responding to post who's inference required some clarification and context. ISUr vs UCA wasn't two 8-3 teams playing on neutral field, where one team won and clearly outplayed the other team. And since were talking conferences ... were talking about how a 4-4 MVFC team nearly beat an 8-1 SLC team on their field. Which paints a little different picture than poster was suggesting.

No big deal, just repainting the picture with proper context.

but you guys always discredit the Southland as a fraud, and you weren't even playing the best team in the Southland so the real Fraud is seven Valley teams in the top 10

[semobison]

This post must've came out of the left side of your mouth in your next post came out of the right side of your mouth

plenty of Valley fans were defending the selection of Illinois state to the playoffs last year

Well I guess sooner or later a Valley team had to lose a first round game. 12-1 the last three years in the first round games in the playoffs! So, you pick the one game a Valley team suffers a loss and continue...yes this has been repetitive... to try to use it as an example...weak sauce! Give me a different example and let's try to keep it to within the last three years and post season.

[Redbird 4th & short]

You mean a 6-5 team that had no business being in the playoffs? Yeah the bubble was weak and they got in. They also lost to ISUb and EIU. No one would even dare argue they were good last year.
we deserved the bid .. you think the FCS committee did us a favor ... Why would they do that ? Our 6-5 was better than several other teams 7-4 ... some who made playoffs, some who did not. Dp people really think different SOS can't make at least 1 game difference in Win-Loss records ... it is incredulous to think it can't make a 1 or 2 game difference.

Case in point .. the YSU and NC A&T debate. Before all of YSU injuries, their 3-5 team would beat NC A&Ts 8-0 team by 3-4 TDs ... just no doubt. Look what NC A&T did in playoff last year with similar record .. other than fact that NC A&T played a decent FBS team last year and got smoked. The got to playoffs and got smoked in 1st round.

SOS matters a lot .. 9-2 is not necessarily better than 7-4. And sometimes 6-5 deserves to get in .. nearly won on road, in fact.

[caribbeanhen]

Well I guess sooner or later a Valley team had to lose a first round game. 12-1 the last three years in the first round games in the playoffs! So, you pick the one game a Valley team suffers a loss and continue...yes this has been repetitive... to try to use it as an example...weak sauce! Give me a different example and let's try to keep it to within the last three years and post season.

OK
heavily favored Illinois state gets beaten soundly by Richmond in there midwest backyard

I think this win by Richmond was the start of a Love affair, Richmond became the mistress of almost all Missouri Valley football conference Poll voters and it still reflects in the pole two years later
Richmond has been ranked way too high in the AGS poll all year and it all goes back to one game where they combined you boys

[Kemo]

This post must've came out of the left side of your mouth in your next post came out of the right side of your mouth

plenty of Valley fans were defending the selection of Illinois state to the playoffs last year
Not sure one could say with a straight face that ISU-Red's loss invalidated their claim as a playoff participate.

I'd actually argue their game against UCA was a microcosm of the Redbirds' season as a whole:

Like the game itself, they could play at a high level (they were soundly beating a team who had 3 more wins than them for most of the game), but they were also inconsistent and could play poorly at times (hence them blowing the lead against UCA in the 4th).

I'm of the opinion that, when it comes to borderline playoff teams, you take someone with the best chance to make some noise (i.e. a team with a high ceiling, but at times, a low floor) over a team that has firmly displayed they are nothing more than mediocre.

[TheKingpin28]

we deserved the bid .. you think the FCS committee did us a favor ... Why would they do that ? Our 6-5 was better than several other teams 7-4 ... some who made playoffs, some who did not. Dp people really think different SOS can't make at least 1 game difference in Win-Loss records ... it is incredulous to think it can't make a 1 or 2 game difference.

Case in point .. the YSU and NC A&T debate. Before all of YSU injuries, their 3-5 team would beat NC A&Ts 8-0 team by 3-4 TDs ... just no doubt. Look what NC A&T did in playoff last year with similar record .. other than fact that NC A&T played a decent FBS team last year and got smoked. The got to playoffs and got smoked in 1st round.

SOS matters a lot .. 9-2 is not necessarily better than 7-4. And sometimes 6-5 deserves to get in .. nearly won on road, in fact.

I have tried making this point with RootingForDukes, but he is too blind to admit his JMU homerism. The reason why I did not think you deserved it was that the bubble was so weak and that they let NCAT in, which caused plenty of heads to roll. That alone was a joke and SUU should have gotten in over NCAT. I just was disappointed that a 6-5 team got in, but out of all of them, that got in, you deserved it with the win over SDSU but EIU could have said they deserved it with the win over you and Miami (OH) who won the MAC East (which was downright awful). Regardless of what happened, NCAT deserved to not be in it especially with EIU beating the RedBirds and they lost to them.

[semobison]

[QUOTE=caribbeanhen;2557908]OK
heavily favored Illinois state gets beaten soundly by Richmond in there midwest backyard

I think this win by Richmond was the start of a Love affair, Richmond became the mistress of almost all Missouri Valley football conference Poll voters and it still reflects in the pole two years later
Richmond has been ranked way too high in the AGS poll all year and it all goes back to one game where they combined you boys[/

Quarterfinal game and yes it was an upset. I was a little surprised but when you get to the final 8 all the teams are pretty good...So a Valley team loses in the quarters and you use it as an example that the conference is overrated....It's more weak sauce...The Valley is deep, go look at the rankings before we started conference play. Most teams have dropped in the polls because they beat the crap out of each other.....I have been watching your anti MVFC posts for a couple of years now, I don't get it? I have nothing but good things to say about the CAA. Great conference just not the best conference...anymore!

[Serpentor]

I am just going to enjoy to watch the CAA, SoCon, and SL fanboys cry about some hard facts.

Kingpin anxiously awaiting at his command center...

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1259927/South-Park-World-of-Warcraft-dude.jpg

[ElCid]

I am just going to enjoy to watch the CAA, SoCon, and SL fanboys cry about some hard facts.

Meh. Maybe some hard algorithms. Facts are decided on the field. Love FCS.

[ElCid]

Kingpin anxiously awaiting at his command center...

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1259927/South-Park-World-of-Warcraft-dude.jpg

That's just funny.

[Winterborn]

Kingpin anxiously awaiting at his command center...

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1259927/South-Park-World-of-Warcraft-dude.jpg

Can't be him, he isn't in his North Star hockey jersey.......

[Redbird 4th & short]

but you guys always discredit the Southland as a fraud, and you weren't even playing the best team in the Southland so the real Fraud is seven Valley teams in the top 10
I agree there is clearly not 7 MVFC teams worth a top 10 ranking as it stands today. I would say there are 3 for sure (NDSU, USD, SDSU) and there used to be 4 before YSU collapse. Then not far behind is ISUr and WIU, and then UNI .. in that order. YSU was a top 10 team, but no more .. war of attrition took its toll. From playoff slotting perspective today, I would have 3 in top 8, then 2 more in top 16, then UNI rounding out the playoff picture for 6 teams.

As for value of systems like Sagarin and Massey, I have always maintained that statistical systems should mainly be relied on for assessing SOS .. granted he clustering of conference teams will eventually be self-perpetuating its standing, making it harder for teams from other conferences to move up.

As for Sagarin and Massey ranking of teams, it usually doe much better job the any subjective poll, though has it's issues noted above. I do think AGS poll is one of the better subjective polls out there .. certainly better than FCP Coaches and Stats.

For ranking though, if I were on FCS selection committee or FCP coaches pool ... I would rely on combination of Massey Composite and AGS, then pick a SOS system like Massey .. then take what I know, do some quick homework, and pick my teams that way.

[TheKingpin28]

Kingpin anxiously awaiting at his command center...

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1259927/South-Park-World-of-Warcraft-dude.jpg

I don't drink rockstar and maybe shave a few pounds, but it is damn close.


Meh. Maybe some hard algorithms. Facts are decided on the field. Love FCS.

You and me both.

[TheKingpin28]

Can't be him, he isn't in his North Star hockey jersey.......

Now you're just trolling to get me mad.

[Redbird 4th & short]

[QUOTE=caribbeanhen;2557908]OK
heavily favored Illinois state gets beaten soundly by Richmond in there midwest backyard

I think this win by Richmond was the start of a Love affair, Richmond became the mistress of almost all Missouri Valley football conference Poll voters and it still reflects in the pole two years later
Richmond has been ranked way too high in the AGS poll all year and it all goes back to one game where they combined you boys[/

Quarterfinal game and yes it was an upset. I was a little surprised but when you get to the final 8 all the teams are pretty good...So a Valley team loses in the quarters and you use it as an example that the conference is overrated....It's more weak sauce...The Valley is deep, go look at the rankings before we started conference play. Most teams have dropped in the polls because they beat the crap out of each other.....I have been watching your anti MVFC posts for a couple of years now, I don't get it? I have nothing but good things to say about the CAA. Great conference just not the best conference...anymore!

this !

[Professor Chaos]

Not sure one could say with a straight face that ISU-Red's loss invalidated their claim as a playoff participate.

I'd actually argue their game against UCA was a microcosm of the Redbirds' season as a whole:

Like the game itself, they could play at a high level (they were soundly beating a team who had 3 more wins than them for most of the game), but they were also inconsistent and could play poorly at times (hence them blowing the lead against UCA in the 4th).

I'm of the opinion that, when it comes to borderline playoff teams, you take someone with the best chance to make some noise (i.e. a team with a high ceiling, but at times, a low floor) over a team that has firmly displayed they are nothing more than mediocre.
Yeah, look at who the options were. 7-4 Albany was probably the first team out and ISUr stacked up very favorably with them when considering their win over Northwestern (the B1G one not the SLC on) and giving the only MVFC loss to #8 seed SDSU.

Everyone's favorite whipping boy NC A&T was more exposed as being undeserving of a playoff invite than ISUr was IMO.

[WestCoastAggie]

The MVFC really has an A&T complex, apparently. Sheesh. All our young men are doing is practicing hard and playing against whose on the schedule.

Y'all MVFC cats are acting like we stole something from you all.

Let it go.

[Redbird 4th & short]

I have tried making this point with RootingForDukes, but he is too blind to admit his JMU homerism. The reason why I did not think you deserved it was that the bubble was so weak and that they let NCAT in, which caused plenty of heads to roll. That alone was a joke and SUU should have gotten in over NCAT. I just was disappointed that a 6-5 team got in, but out of all of them, that got in, you deserved it with the win over SDSU but EIU could have said they deserved it with the win over you and Miami (OH) who won the MAC East (which was downright awful). Regardless of what happened, NCAT deserved to not be in it especially with EIU beating the RedBirds and they lost to them.

your logic is .. uh .. logical .. but you forgot we beat a decent Northwestern team in week 2 .. .. much better win the the Miami OH win.

Regarding last years bubble teams. I did little visual side by side of some bubble teams last fall. It relied on Massey data. It shows each bubble teams results sorted by their opponents ranking (left col). It color codes the quality of he opponent .. green is good, yellow is average, red is bad. it also shows the margin of win as well (middle column) and then W-L outcome (right column) ... all sorted by opponent rank # per Massey side by side with other bubble teams with each cell color coded for quality.

I may try to do this again this year .. but it was a lot of work. ISU clearly had best resume of teams below according to Massey SOS. And even if Massey SOS skewed favorably .. then add 5 to rank of every ISU opponent ..we still have best resume. It wasn't just the NW win, though that was certainly big help.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26392&stc=1

[Winterborn]

Now you're just trolling to get me mad.

Maybe. :D

[Lorne_Malvo]

Chazz Michael Michaels: MVFC is FCS Football!

[cx500d]

I don't drink rockstar and maybe shave a few pounds, but it is damn close.



You and me both.


Rockstar and Jack? Monster and Jack?

[REALBird]

so why did Illinois State lose to a Southland conference team in the playoffs last year?

Because they were a mediocre 6-5. The better team won last year. You seem to keep falling back to that as your only Southland/MVFC argument it seems.

[caribbeanhen]

[QUOTE=caribbeanhen;2557908]OK
heavily favored Illinois state gets beaten soundly by Richmond in there midwest backyard

I think this win by Richmond was the start of a Love affair, Richmond became the mistress of almost all Missouri Valley football conference Poll voters and it still reflects in the pole two years later
Richmond has been ranked way too high in the AGS poll all year and it all goes back to one game where they combined you boys[/

Quarterfinal game and yes it was an upset. I was a little surprised but when you get to the final 8 all the teams are pretty good...So a Valley team loses in the quarters and you use it as an example that the conference is overrated....It's more weak sauce...The Valley is deep, go look at the rankings before we started conference play. Most teams have dropped in the polls because they beat the crap out of each other.....I have been watching your anti MVFC posts for a couple of years now, I don't get it? I have nothing but good things to say about the CAA. Great conference just not the best conference...anymore!

It was an upset was it, not in my eyes

[thebootfitter]

So only MVFC teams lose players & therefore only they should stay in a top 10 poll? You can’t actually believe you have 7 of the top 10 teams in the FCS. Do you really?

Please go walk your cute little doggie now & think this over.Ha ha ha! Poll?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[thebootfitter]

Stop moving the goal posts. The Sagarin poll is 7 of 10 spots not 5 of 15. That is the current argument here. Thanks, I wear my badge proudly when it comes to exposing the MVFC propaganda machine. xpeacex Glad to be recognized.Ha ha ha! Poll???

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Gangtackle11]

Ha ha ha! Poll???

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

You wasted your time responding because I wrote poll instead of rankings? Slow night?

[thebootfitter]

You wasted your time responding because I wrote poll instead of rankings? Slow night?It's an important distinction. Worth making. If you don't understand the importance of the distinction, then consider softening your stance.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Daytripper]

The MVFC really has an A&T complex, apparently. Sheesh. All our young men are doing is practicing hard and playing against whose on the schedule.

Y'all MVFC cats are acting like we stole something from you all.

Let it go.

Well said.

[TheKingpin28]

Maybe. :D

It worked.

[TheKingpin28]

Rockstar and Jack? Monster and Jack?

Jack and Coke

[Serpentor]

Jack and Coke

https://i.imgflip.com/840wq.jpg

[Redbird 4th & short]

[QUOTE=semobison;2557914]

It was an upset was it, not in my eyes
as a Redbird fan, I was pleasantly surprised we got the 2 seed in 2015 .. in my eyes committee got it backwards in 2014 and 2015 as far as our seeds. Should have been higher than 5 in 2014 and lower than 2 in 2015. That said, the Richmond game was case of being out game planned. We lost a lot from 2014 team, and relied heavily on Roberson/Coprich .. give credit to Richmond coaches for their game plan. It took us until mid Q2 to wake up and adjust to what Richmond was doing. But as others said .. it is one data point.

p.s. Redbird fans get very frustrated with how our DBs are taught to pass defend .. essentially they are told to chase, play the man (not look for ball), and then try to disrupt the catch when their arms reach for ball. it works ok most of time .. until you get a well coached offense with a QB who can put the ball on a dime most times .. then it fails, and we get torched. Note, we are usually very high ranked in pass defense QBR, but have occasional games where we get torched ... this is why. It drives Redbird fans crazy that our DBs rarely look for ball when pass defending. This is what Richmond QB did in 2015 and what NAU QB did this year. In short, QBs can throw to covered WRs, so long as there is no Safety nearby .. they can throw with little fear of being picked.

[Reign of Terrier]

The problem with Massey and Sagarin are that they are averages appointing too much certainty than what's justified.

Remember, the FCS has a lot of caveats relative to the FBS (more conferences have less scholarships, more conferences don't play for the championship, there's 11 games a season with on average 8 conference games leaving 2 games for OOC with many teams opting to play a D2 opponent, so there's not a lot of data for comparison between the top tier conferences).

I think there's a systemic problem this year with over-weighting the strength of the MVFC. That's not to say that the MVFC isn't the best conference or that multiple teams deserve to be in the top 10 or top 15, it's just that the logic used to make the conclusions of these rankings is like 3 degrees of separation from the actual playing field.

If your conference is worth anything, it's competitive. The MVFC is competitive, as is the Socon, the Big Sky and the CAA (especially if you omit JMU from the top). The argument that the MVFC is the best conference is valid (based upon prior performances in the playoffs and current competitiveness), but not necessarily sound. The only way you test its soundness is in the playoffs and OOC play.

What's frustrating about the conclusions and potential consequences of taking the computer ratings at face value is that you over-inflate how good the MVFC in a way that disadvantages other programs. If we took these ratings on face value, you'd have to give a seed to like 1/2 the MVFC, giving them advantages involving home field, etc. Thankfully everything is decided on the field, but resorting to computer rankings when there's so much uncertainty with it in college football is really just a cheap way to use a technicality to seal yourself off from fair treatment.

[kalm]

The problem with Massey and Sagarin are that they are averages appointing too much certainty than what's justified.

Remember, the FCS has a lot of caveats relative to the FBS (more conferences have less scholarships, more conferences don't play for the championship, there's 11 games a season with on average 8 conference games leaving 2 games for OOC with many teams opting to play a D2 opponent, so there's not a lot of data for comparison between the top tier conferences).

I think there's a systemic problem this year with over-weighting the strength of the MVFC. That's not to say that the MVFC isn't the best conference or that multiple teams deserve to be in the top 10 or top 15, it's just that the logic used to make the conclusions of these rankings is like 3 degrees of separation from the actual playing field.

If your conference is worth anything, it's competitive. The MVFC is competitive, as is the Socon, the Big Sky and the CAA (especially if you omit JMU from the top). The argument that the MVFC is the best conference is valid (based upon prior performances in the playoffs and current competitiveness), but not necessarily sound. The only way you test its soundness is in the playoffs and OOC play.

What's frustrating about the conclusions and potential consequences of taking the computer ratings at face value is that you over-inflate how good the MVFC in a way that disadvantages other programs. If we took these ratings on face value, you'd have to give a seed to like 1/2 the MVFC, giving them advantages involving home field, etc. Thankfully everything is decided on the field, but resorting to computer rankings when there's so much uncertainty with it in college football is really just a cheap way to use a technicality to seal yourself off from fair treatment.

Compare SoS and SoS of opponents and quality wins and you'll come to similar conclusions.

I'm guessing the OOC SoS of the MVFC and BSC are noticeably higher than the CAA and SoCon which makes sense due to the geography of available non-con FCS opponents. Not faulting the latter two conferences, Id love for us to schedule like that.

As another example, compare the top 5 OOC wins from the CAA, BSC, and the SoCon with the MVFC.

[jmu007]

I just have 1 question. When was the last time a MVFC team not named North Dakota State won an actual title? Conference, National?

Seems to me this whole thread is a bunch of squabbling over participation trophies behind NDSU. =)

[Reign of Terrier]

I think it's also worth mentioning that one of the reasons the Socon doesn't schedule great OOC is geography and the institutions involved themselves. Given the size of Socon schools, unless you're getting a good pay day in an away game (which is not guaranteed at this level), from an institutional standpoint flying to an OOC FCS game isn't worth the cost or sustainable.

Wofford
Furman
Samford
Mercer
Chattanooga
ETSU
VMI
The Citadel
Western Carolina

The above teams are private, the italicized ones have an enrollment of less than 4,000. It's no wonder that the Socon has scheduling/OOC problems since GSU and App State left the conference (and I imagine the CAA has a similar problem with a few small, private colleges in their ranks). Basically, we don't have as much funds to go out and fly to Illinois or the Dakotas to play a football game. Meanwhile most/all of the Big Sky, OVC and MVFC are public institutions with higher enrollments and more money to pull from.

Of the Socon teams, it's no wonder that Samford and Chattanooga and probably Mercer/ETSU in the future are better at scheduling OOC. They are closer to OVC teams in Tennessee and Texas/Arkansas in the Southland or they have the funds to go to other states.

But if you're Wofford, the Citadel or Furman there's a ceiling on the teams you can schedule, given funds and geography. I'd say Furman has been the best at scheduling OOC games and Wofford's been the worst.

[Bison56]

No TF they wouldn't. No BS, but we would shock YSU and make Coach Bo have a meltdown on the field. Brandon Parker and our OL would keep Lamar Raynard clean, allowing him to look like Tom Brady in completing passes to at least 8 different receivers. Meanwhile, our Defense led by Julian McKnight, Jonathan Taylor and Jerry Rice Award Candidate Franklin "Mac" McCain would contribute in causing turnovers.

A healthy A&T is not Robert Morris or Central Conn. No offense guys.


https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/400x/31843655.jpg (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjr8bS7gpvXAhVP7GMKHVL5A50QjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmemegenerator.net%2Finstance%2F3 1843655%2Frick-james-cocaine-is-a-helluva-drug&psig=AOvVaw0UEbEaPZAzqSi2oMA6L5t2&ust=1509544719768368)

[kalm]

I think it's also worth mentioning that one of the reasons the Socon doesn't schedule great OOC is geography and the institutions involved themselves. Given the size of Socon schools, unless you're getting a good pay day in an away game (which is not guaranteed at this level), from an institutional standpoint flying to an OOC FCS game isn't worth the cost or sustainable.

Wofford
Furman
Samford
Mercer
Chattanooga
ETSU
VMI
The Citadel
Western Carolina

The above teams are private, the italicized ones have an enrollment of less than 4,000. It's no wonder that the Socon has scheduling/OOC problems since GSU and App State left the conference (and I imagine the CAA has a similar problem with a few small, private colleges in their ranks). Basically, we don't have as much funds to go out and fly to Illinois or the Dakotas to play a football game. Meanwhile most/all of the Big Sky, OVC and MVFC are public institutions with higher enrollments and more money to pull from.

Of the Socon teams, it's no wonder that Samford and Chattanooga and probably Mercer/ETSU in the future are better at scheduling OOC. They are closer to OVC teams in Tennessee and Texas/Arkansas in the Southland or they have the funds to go to other states.

But if you're Wofford, the Citadel or Furman there's a ceiling on the teams you can schedule, given funds and geography. I'd say Furman has been the best at scheduling OOC games and Wofford's been the worst.

EWU is always at or near the bottom of the Big Sky in athletics budget and would be near the bottom of the SoCon.

That doesn't matter though unless your going to rank a team higher based on geography and spending vs. SoS and quality wins.

[Reign of Terrier]

EWU is always at or near the bottom of the Big Sky in athletics budget and would be near the bottom of the SoCon.

That doesn't matter though unless your going to rank a team higher based on geography and spending vs. SoS and quality wins.

It's relevant if we're talking about SOS and the capability of scheduling a viable SOS. Yet we perform decently in the playoffs. I would compare EWU's to any of the private schools in the socon and bet EWU's is bigger

[thebootfitter]

The problem with Massey and Sagarin are that they are averages appointing too much certainty than what's justified.

YT - You keep making this claim without justifying it.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Professor]

Cool story bro but you are the only one who thinks it is true. How many playoff games has the meac lost in a row???

What's so great about this , his school has 2 count them 2 all time wins in the playoffs and A&T has 1.

Too funny. So worried about A&T and your team isn't going to the playoffs ..... where is that GIF

[Professor]

They wouldn't though because there are no pc virtue signal points to be won in the SoCon.

Sure , you all don't need money. That's why your playing Clemson for 300k and Bama for 500K. Guess they are gonna be competitive

[Reign of Terrier]

YT - You keep making this claim without justifying it.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Rankings are always subjective, computer rankings are at a margin of error. So if team A is ranked 7 in one computer ranking and team B is ranked 8 but the difference comes at, like, .002 vs .003 they may as well be even, but one is still ranked higher

I haven't seen the math for either, but the FCS right now is pretty much a cluster**** outside of the top 5-7 or so. Realistically #8-20 are going to play each other close no matter what. The computers don't weigh wins and losses or point to trends as precisely as possible, they just spit out the math and humans interpret patterns accordingly. Computers help us point out patterns we want to see, but they can only go so far.

[Professor]

I just have 1 question. When was the last time a MVFC team not named North Dakota State won an actual title? Conference, National?

Seems to me this whole thread is a bunch of squabbling over participation trophies behind NDSU. =)

Que jeopardy music

[kalm]

It's relevant if we're talking about SOS and the capability of scheduling a viable SOS. Yet we perform decently in the playoffs. I would compare EWU's to any of the private schools in the socon and bet EWU's is bigger

It's not relevant at all. You're supposed to rank teams by resume not whether they choose or have to stay close to home, OOC

Btw, EWU is around $13.5 million placing it equal to the Citadel, ETSU, and VMI and behind Mercer, Wofford, Samford, and UTC.

http://catamount.boards.net/thread/7701/socon-athletic-budgets

[Serpentor]

I just have 1 question. When was the last time a MVFC team not named North Dakota State won an actual title? Conference, National?

Seems to me this whole thread is a bunch of squabbling over participation trophies behind NDSU. =)


Survey says: Jim Tressel-era Youngstown State, 1997.

Last time another MVFC team won the conference alone (IE, not sharing with NDSU) was 2010, UNI.

[ST_Lawson]

Survey says: Jim Tressel-era Youngstown State, 1997.

Last time another MVFC team won the conference alone (IE, not sharing with NDSU) was 2010, UNI.

Won the championship game...that'd be Western Kentucky in 2002.

Made it to the championship game...YSU in 2016, Illinois State in 2014, UNI in 2005

[Serpentor]

Won the championship game...that'd be Western Kentucky in 2002.

Made it to the championship game...YSU in 2016, Illinois State in 2014, UNI in 2005

My mistake, looks like the MVFC used to be called the Gateway Conference, threw me off.

[Reign of Terrier]

It's not relevant at all. You're supposed to rank teams by resume not whether they choose or have to stay close to home, OOC

Btw, EWU is around $13.5 million placing it equal to the Citadel, ETSU, and VMI and behind Mercer, Wofford, Samford, and UTC.

http://catamount.boards.net/thread/7701/socon-athletic-budgets

This is good information...it's relevant though if we're going to judge teams based upon who they play if these factors lead them to playing less competitively in OOC. I wonder how much money Wofford saves any given year by not flying 80ish people across the country for an FCS OOC game.

[Cocky]

Compare SoS and SoS of opponents and quality wins and you'll come to similar conclusions.

I'm guessing the OOC SoS of the MVFC and BSC are noticeably higher than the CAA and SoCon which makes sense due to the geography of available non-con FCS opponents. Not faulting the latter two conferences, Id love for us to schedule like that.

As another example, compare the top 5 OOC wins from the CAA, BSC, and the SoCon with the MVFC.

Not sure any conference could boast a good OOC schedule this year.
The quality games this year:
EWU v NDSU
Richmond v Sam Houston
SUU v UNI
N AZ v ISUr
Kennesaw v Samford
Elon v Furman
WIU v N AZ


Top 5 teams according to AGS
JMU - ETSU, Norfolk St
NDSU - Miss Valley St., EWU, Robert Morris
JSU - Chattanooga, Liberty ? (not sure which level they are considered)
UCA - Murray St
SD - Drake, ND

One decent game with NDSU v EWU (EWU not having an EWU standard year). Hard to tell if anyone is good or bad outside of their conference this year with these OOC games.

[ST_Lawson]

Over the last 20 years (1997 to present), the MVFC is (if my numbers are correct), 59-38 in the playoffs if you completely exclude NDSU and not counting games where it was MVFC vs MVFC. So, the non-NDSU teams in that span against playoff-level non-MVFC teams are .608.

I don't know how that compares to other conferences, I'm just saying that's what the numbers say.


Not sure any conference could boast a good OOC schedule this year.
The quality games this year:
EWU v NDSU
Richmond v Sam Houston
SUU v UNI
N AZ v ISUr
Kennesaw v Samford
Elon v Furman
WIU v N AZ


Top 5 teams according to AGS
JMU - ETSU, Norfolk St
NDSU - Miss Valley St., EWU, Robert Morris
JSU - Chattanooga, Liberty ? (not sure which level they are considered)
UCA - Murray St
SD - Drake, ND

One decent game with NDSU v EWU (EWU not having an EWU standard year). Hard to tell if anyone is good or bad outside of their conference this year with these OOC games.

Now, I know they're only "technically" FBS, but we don't get any credit for demolishing Coastal Carolina on their home field? We played 3 full-scholarship (one FBS) teams, all on the road, including traveling to 7k ft above sea level and a time zone west of home, then at sea level in a hot and humid game a time zone east of home the next weekend. We won all three games, outscoring the teams 131-44...and you don't consider that a good OOC?

[Gangtackle11]

Over the last 20 years (1997 to present), the MVFC is (if my numbers are correct), 59-38 in the playoffs if you completely exclude NDSU and not counting games where it was MVFC vs MVFC. So, the non-NDSU teams in that span against playoff-level non-MVFC teams are .608.

I don't know how that compares to other conferences, I'm just saying that's what the numbers say.

Those are solid #s. Would never dispute that, but to have 7 out the top 10 FCS teams in the Sagarin smells of a computer glitch or a input malfunction. xpeacex

[kalm]

This is good information...it's relevant though if we're going to judge teams based upon who they play if these factors lead them to playing less competitively in OOC. I wonder how much money Wofford saves any given year by not flying 80ish people across the country for an FCS OOC game.

Relevant to what? You're not saying Wofford should be given consideration in rankings because they play close to home OOC are you?

[Bison56]

Over the last 20 years (1997 to present), the MVFC is (if my numbers are correct), 59-38 in the playoffs if you completely exclude NDSU and not counting games where it was MVFC vs MVFC. So, the non-NDSU teams in that span against playoff-level non-MVFC teams are .608.

I don't know how that compares to other conferences, I'm just saying that's what the numbers say.



Now, I know they're only "technically" FBS, but we don't get any credit for demolishing Coastal Carolina on their home field? We played 3 full-scholarship (one FBS) teams, all on the road, including traveling to 7k ft above sea level and a time zone west of home, then at sea level in a hot and humid game a time zone east of home the next weekend. We won all three games, outscoring the teams 131-44...and you don't consider that a good OOC?
In his defense he is a JSU fan and they play in the OVC, so don't expect to much from them.

[thebootfitter]

Those are solid #s. Would never dispute that, but to have 7 out the top 10 FCS teams in the Sagarin smells of a computer glitch or a input malfunction. xpeacexThis comment smells of human bias. ;-)

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Reign of Terrier]

Relevant to what? You're not saying Wofford should be given consideration in rankings because they play close to home OOC are you?

I'm saying that if you compare the socon's (not just wofford) performance in the playoffs in the last few years to their SOS they do a lot better in the playoffs than SOS would indicate.

The only way to falsify the computer rankings is on-field performance and that's just one example. At this point in the season we're using SOS/OOC as a measure of conference strength in a way that benefits the MVFC that looks inflated and the only way it's going to falsified with playoff performances.

TL;DR too much computers, not enough human judgments. Each by their own can suck, but together we get our best picture.

[Cocky]

Over the last 20 years (1997 to present), the MVFC is (if my numbers are correct), 59-38 in the playoffs if you completely exclude NDSU and not counting games where it was MVFC vs MVFC. So, the non-NDSU teams in that span against playoff-level non-MVFC teams are .608.

I don't know how that compares to other conferences, I'm just saying that's what the numbers say.



Now, I know they're only "technically" FBS, but we don't get any credit for demolishing Coastal Carolina on their home field? We played 3 full-scholarship (one FBS) teams, all on the road, including traveling to 7k ft above sea level and a time zone west of home, then at sea level in a hot and humid game a time zone east of home the next weekend. We won all three games, outscoring the teams 131-44...and you don't consider that a good OOC?

Not really concerned with FBS just trying to compare FCS. Also left out GaSo, UNCC, Bowling Green and others.

Your OOC, which is better than most since you do have one good FCS game, has one good OOC FCS game. If you are trying to compare high level FCS teams across the country its hard to do with a small sample size of games.

[Cocky]

In his defense he is a JSU fan and they play in the OVC, so don't expect to much from them.

Which OOC games have been good match ups this year? I even gave your conference a benefit by including some 500 teams (Richmond also). Did you see a JSU game included in the good games? Sorry I hurt your feeling by not stating your Miss Valley State win was one of the greatest in NDSU history.

[soconjohn5]

Furman and Wofford would be the snot out of YSU this year...Bye Pelini...Go threaten the playoff committee when you don't get in the postseason!

[soconjohn5]

YSU...Remember Carl Tremble? Name ring a bell? Think 1989 playoffs and the second half.

[PaladinNation]

I hope as CCH continues the rebuilding process at Furman and fans start to come back to Paladin Stadium.
We see Furman continue contracting intriguing home and home OOC matchups.

I think the filter that Furman would put on this would be to find matches with similar schools. Elon, Colgate, Lehigh, Richmond, W&M come to mind. Furman has also scheduled Delaware, JaxSt and Hofstra in the past, and way back - home and home with UConn.

Furman's money games are usually with an ACC or SEC foe; Clemson next season. I wish we could get a game or two with against the service academy's - Furman's primary recruiting competition.

I would love to see Furman play a Dakota school home and home, I would love to see Montana come to South Carolina. As Furman becomes more competitive and hopefully faces some of these teams in the playoffs it build enough interest to merit some cross-country matchups.

[citdog]

I hope as CCH continues the rebuilding process at Furman and fans start to come back to Paladin Stadium.
We see Furman continue contracting intriguing home and home OOC matchups.

I think the filter that Furman would put on this would be to find matches with similar schools. Elon, Colgate, Lehigh, Richmond, W&M come to mind. Furman has also scheduled Delaware, JaxSt and Hofstra in the past, and way back - home and home with UConn.

Furman's money games are usually with an ACC or SEC foe; Clemson next season. I wish we could get a game or two with against the service academy's - Furman's primary recruiting competition.

I would love to see Furman play a Dakota school home and home, I would love to see Montana come to South Carolina. As Furman becomes more competitive and hopefully faces some of these teams in the playoffs it build enough interest to merit some cross-country matchups.

5700 average attendence. Ladies softball games draw more than furman football...

[citdog]

YSU...Remember Carl Tremble? Name ring a bell? Think 1989 playoffs and the second half.


Remember Stanley Myers in the 2nd half????

[centennial]

All the people ****ting on YSU. They should've won vs Pitt if it wasn't for some home cooking by the refs. The had a good chance against both NDSU and USD. Today they are injured and have given up. At the start of the season they would take most conference champions to task except maybe JMU.

Also the computers aren't biased. If your teams had done well in the OOC then your conferences would've been rated higher. They didn't. The MVFC did. Both Massey and Sagarin can predict matches better than any human I've seen. So unless you can predict games at over 80% accuracy for W-L or can design a better system we are stuck with the computer polls.

[beerkat]

All the people ****ting on YSU. They should've won vs Pitt if it wasn't for some home cooking by the refs. The had a good chance against both NDSU and USD. Today they are injured and have given up. At the start of the season they would take most conference champions to task except maybe JMU.

Also the computers aren't biased. If your teams had done well in the OOC then your conferences would've been rated higher. They didn't. The MVFC did. Both Massey and Sagarin can predict matches better than any human I've seen. So unless you can predict games at over 80% accuracy for W-L or can design a better system we are stuck with the computer polls.

So injured and giving up is okay for Youngstown this year, but if I try to say that SHSU got blown out last year by JMU because the quarterback was injured and the team gave up this forum would go ape ****

[ElCid]

Both Massey and Sagarin can predict matches better than any human I've seen. So unless you can predict games at over 80% accuracy for W-L or can design a better system we are stuck with the computer polls.

Just to be accurate they are currently picking W/L at rate about 78% for Massey and 75% for Sagarin. For 2017. It's been a down year for both.

I have found them eerily accurate at times. But they have been wildly off as well. I have seen folks pick better, and I have as well, but not over an extended period.

[Reign of Terrier]

All the people ****ting on YSU. They should've won vs Pitt if it wasn't for some home cooking by the refs. The had a good chance against both NDSU and USD. Today they are injured and have given up. At the start of the season they would take most conference champions to task except maybe JMU.

Also the computers aren't biased. If your teams had done well in the OOC then your conferences would've been rated higher. They didn't. The MVFC did. Both Massey and Sagarin can predict matches better than any human I've seen. So unless you can predict games at over 80% accuracy for W-L or can design a better system we are stuck with the computer polls.

There's a difference between ranking teams and picking who would win. And the thing is, we're not stuck with the computer polls anyway (thank God!). We have STATS poll, AGS poll, etc etc.

Having Youngstown ranked so high makes these polls relative outliers. You test the validity of polls or rankings with the result on the field. Unless, Youngstown State makes the playoffs at 6-5 (I don't think they will with this week's bad loss) so at this point it's an unfalsifiable assertion that can't be assessed.

It may be true that Youngstown is a top 10 team, on average. I just don't think it's likely given that they've lost 5 games, the latest a 35 point shut out. A computer doesn't give you a value judgment on how good or bad that it is. It just tells you the average. I'm sure neither Sagarin or Massey saw the 35-0 loss by Youngstown coming up.

These sort of statistical realities always show up after the fact. For instance, a month ago you could say that Wofford's run defense was worse than last year (at one point this year averaging 145 ypg compared to 81 ypg last year), which is weird because we brought back all the starters. Mathematically, you would predict that Wofford would have a worse performance against teams like ETSU and Samford than the year before, but that's not really what happened. Bayesian algorithms only give us a baseline expectation. It's from that baseline we use induction to figure out where the scales will tilt.

For instance, in the Wofford example used, last year we played worse competition and the collective strength of Socon run offenses was not as good as this year; the average expectation gave us a baseline expectation of what to expect, but other variables you can't really put in those algorithms concisely made for better predictions.

So of course Sagarin or Massey will pick better than a human, on average, because their predictions are based upon cold, hard numbers and not informed by any bias before.

Meanwhile, it can't calculate things like not be able to win close games (a trope in college football, not just FCS), and that's quite frankly the reason why Youngstown isn't top 10 by any other ranking.

[Redbird 4th & short]

So injured and giving up is okay for Youngstown this year, but if I try to say that SHSU got blown out last year by JMU because the quarterback was injured and the team gave up this forum would go ape ****
difference right here is YSU played decent FBS team (top 40-50), and then 5 very tough FCS teams (SDSU, NDSU, USD, UNI, ISU) .. only the last of which proved to be tipping point. So we're explaining the presumed demise of YSU (could bounce back) ... strength of schedule (#1 in FCS) and injuries did them in. So they sit 3-5 and not looking good for rest of season right now.

By contrast, SHSU has played #54 SOS so far, and will wind up playing the #66 SOS for full season. UCA has played the #40 SOS so far, and will play the #49 SOS for full season. There's something to be said for what the full season grind does to teams, specially when you play tough teams 80% of the time. If you have enough depth and can manage to stay somewhat healthy. it should prepare you well for playoffs. But it is a grind that tales a toll.

So here's one to throw this whole thing into another tizzy ... what happens if YSU bounces back and wins out in impressive fashion - they have their 3 easiest games left: ISUb, SIU, MoST. They would finish 6-5 having played one of the toughest SOS in FCS, and would only have 1 bad loss (to ISUr). Everyone is assuming we ended their season with 35-0 win ... but what if they win out ???

[JSUSoutherner]

Over the last 20 years (1997 to present), the MVFC is (if my numbers are correct), 59-38 in the playoffs if you completely exclude NDSU and not counting games where it was MVFC vs MVFC. So, the non-NDSU teams in that span against playoff-level non-MVFC teams are .608.

I don't know how that compares to other conferences, I'm just saying that's what the numbers say.



Now, I know they're only "technically" FBS, but we don't get any credit for demolishing Coastal Carolina on their home field? We played 3 full-scholarship (one FBS) teams, all on the road, including traveling to 7k ft above sea level and a time zone west of home, then at sea level in a hot and humid game a time zone east of home the next weekend. We won all three games, outscoring the teams 131-44...and you don't consider that a good OOC?

Completely off topic and independent from the FCS OOC discussion but I don't think CCU is that big of a deal. They're 1-7 and lost to a team that got handled by Tennessee State. They're a joke this year.

Not trying to knock WIU but I think the NAU win was much more impressive than the Coastal beatdown.

[BNATION]

Problem with your argument is the SOS is skewed to teams who played a FBS opponent, I dont think getting blown out by a FBS team should go towards your SOS. Who cares, and Pitt is awful they are 1-7 against FBS opponents so going toe to toe with them is not a accomplishment, half of the teams in our division could do that. The playoffs will sort all this out. If SHSU and Central get to quarters or semis it will be the same story different year. WE do it consistently and then its always "overrated", when in reality it is under achieved. Also, take away Tom Brady and how good does New England look on both sides of the ball. Take Cam Newton from Auburn and how do they look? When your offense centers around one player and he can barely lift his arm you are going to get blown out when your defense spends the entire game on the field. Such ignorance. Do you think NDSU wins 4 in a row without Wentz? Absolutely not. Delaware wins without Falco? I could go on all day.


difference right here is YSU played decent FBS team (top 40-50), and then 5 very tough FCS teams (SDSU, NDSU, USD, UNI, ISU) .. only the last of which proved to be tipping point. So we're explaining the presumed demise of YSU (could bounce back) ... strength of schedule (#1 in FCS) and injuries did them in. So they sit 3-5 and not looking good for rest of season right now.

By contrast, SHSU has played #54 SOS so far, and will wind up playing the #66 SOS for full season. UCA has played the #40 SOS so far, and will play the #49 SOS for full season. There's something to be said for what the full season grind does to teams, specially when you play tough teams 80% of the time. If you have enough depth and can manage to stay somewhat healthy. it should prepare you well for playoffs. But it is a grind that tales a toll.

So here's one to throw this whole thing into another tizzy ... what happens if YSU bounces back and wins out in impressive fashion - they have their 3 easiest games left: ISUb, SIU, MoST. They would finish 6-5 having played one of the toughest SOS in FCS, and would only have 1 bad loss (to ISUr). Everyone is assuming we ended their season with 35-0 win ... but what if they win out ???

[soconjohn5]

Citdog, I remember Stanley Myers in 1998 about like I remember that nine-game losing streak for The Citadel or when Stump Mitchell was stumped at the 1-yard line in 1978.

[Schism55]

Completely off topic and independent from the FCS OOC discussion but I don't think CCU is that big of a deal. They're 1-7 and lost to a team that got handled by Tennessee State. They're a joke this year.

Not trying to knock WIU but I think the NAU win was much more impressive than the Coastal beatdown.
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/page/bottom103117/bottom-10-oh-horrors-florida-gators
Ga Southern #1
Coastal #4
Their fan bases have to be loving their moves up xlolx

[citdog]

Citdog, I remember Stanley Myers in 1998 about like I remember that nine-game losing streak for The Citadel or when Stump Mitchell was stumped at the 1-yard line in 1978.


54-51

[soconjohn5]

58-13

[citdog]

42-35
38-17
19-14

[Professor Chaos]

Completely off topic and independent from the FCS OOC discussion but I don't think CCU is that big of a deal. They're 1-7 and lost to a team that got handled by Tennessee State. They're a joke this year.

Not trying to knock WIU but I think the NAU win was much more impressive than the Coastal beatdown.
I don't think the win in itself is all that impressive but the fact that they beat them by 42 (CCU's worst loss of the year) and outgained them 510-307 is impressive. CCU actually outgained Georgia St despite losing to them 27-21 so it's pretty misleading to compare Georgia St's win over CCU to WIU's win over CCU without putting each in context.

[Schism55]

42-35
38-17
19-14
867-5309 xdrunkyx

[Kemo]

I just have 1 question. When was the last time a MVFC team not named North Dakota State won an actual title? Conference, National?

Seems to me this whole thread is a bunch of squabbling over participation trophies behind NDSU. =)
Conference? All the way back to last season with SDSU as co-champion.

In fact, during NDSU's run of 5 straight national championships, they only won the conference title outright twice.

[TheKingpin28]

https://i.imgflip.com/840wq.jpg

You don't mix yours?

[soconjohn5]

The Citadel–Furman football rivalry







https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/The_Citadel_Athletics_script.svg/52px-The_Citadel_Athletics_script.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Citadel_Athletics_script.svg)
The Citadel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_Bulldogs_football)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Furman_Paladins_logo.svg/71px-Furman_Paladins_logo.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Furman_Paladins_logo.svg)
Furman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furman_Paladins_football)





Sport
Football


First meeting
1913
The Citadel, 75–0


Latest meeting
2016
The Citadel, 19–14


Next meeting
2017


Statistics


Meetings total
96


All-time series
Furman, 58–35–3[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-1)


Largest victory
75–0, The Citadel (1913)


Longest win streak
9, Furman (1982–1990)


Longest unbeaten streak
13, Furman (1939–1954)


Current win streak
3, The Citadel



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/USA_South_Carolina_location_map.svg/200px-USA_South_Carolina_location_map.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_South_Carolina_location_map.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Blue_pog.svg/7px-Blue_pog.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel,_The_Military_College_of_South_Carolin a)

The Citadel

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Purple_pog.svg/7px-Purple_pog.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furman_University)

Furman



Locations in South Carolina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Carolina)


The Citadel–Furman football rivalry is an American college football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football) rivalry game played by The Citadel Bulldogs football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_Bulldogs_football) team of The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel,_The_Military_College_of_South_Carolin a) and the Furman Paladins football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furman_Paladins_football) team of Furman University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furman_University).

Contents

[hide]


1History (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#Histor y)
2Game results (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#Game_r esults)
3Other varsity sports (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#Other_ varsity_sports)
4Discontinued sports (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#Discon tinued_sports)
5References (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#Refere nces)


History[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_footbal l_rivalry&action=edit&section=1)]

The series dates to 1913, and has been played every year that both schools have fielded a football team since 1919, with only an interruption of 1943 through 1945 during World War II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II). Furman dominated the early years of the rivalry, winning 27 of the first 34 contests, which also included three ties. Since 1955, the series has been remarkably even, with many close, hard fought games and three of overtime contests since 2005.
The Paladins and Bulldogs have alternated home sites for most of their history, with contests played twice at the Orangeburg County Fairgrounds in Orangeburg, South Carolina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg,_South_Carolina). Furman won both games played in Orangeburg.
The series was an end of the season fixture on each team's schedule from 1965 through 1992, and returned to the last regular season weekend in 2012. When The Citadel's other primary rival, VMI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMI_Keydets_football), departed the Southern Conference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Conference), Bulldog coaches worked to restore Furman as their primary rival in the minds of their players and fans.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-7)
In the most recent meeting, on September 10, 2016, The Citadel won its third straight over the Paladins by a score of 19–14, en route to an undefeated SoCon season and their second consecutive conference championship.
Game results[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_footbal l_rivalry&action=edit&section=2)]



The Citadel victories
Furman victories
Tie games






No.
Date
Location
Winner
Score


1
November 1, 1913
Charleston, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina)
The Citadel
75–0


2
November 1, 1919
Greenville, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenville,_South_Carolina)
Furman
21–6


3
October 9, 1920
Charleston, SC
Furman
21–6


4
October 29, 1921
Greenville, SC
Furman
42–0


5
October 19, 1922
Charleston, SC
Furman
28–0


6
October 20, 1923
Greenville, SC
Furman
30–14


7
October 25, 1924
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
6–0


8
October 10, 1925
Greenville, SC
Furman
7–0


9
November 20, 1926
Charleston, SC
Furman
7–0


10
November 19, 1927
Charleston, SC
Furman
6–0


11
November 10, 1928
Greenville, SC
Furman
13–0


12
November 9, 1929
Charleston, SC
Tie
0–0


13
November 22, 1930
Greenville, SC
Furman
31–6


14
November 14, 1931
Charleston, SC
Furman
33–7


15
October 27, 1932
Orangeburg, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg,_South_Carolina)
Furman
20–0


16
October 14, 1933
Greenville, SC
Furman
14–0


17
November 10, 1934
Charleston, SC
Furman
6–0


18
November 2, 1935
Greenville, SC
Furman
35–0


19
October 10, 1936
Greenville, SC
Furman
13–7


20
October 16, 1937
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
8–0


21
October 15, 1938
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
9–6


22
October 14, 1939
Charleston, SC
Furman
7–0


23
October 11, 1940
Greenville, SC
Furman
36–7


24
October 18, 1941
Charleston, SC
Tie
13–13


25
November 7, 1942
Greenville, SC
Furman
20–0


26
October 19, 1946
Charleston, SC
Furman
14–0


27
October 17, 1947
Greenville, SC
Furman
7–0


28
October 23, 1948
Greenville, SC
Furman
9–0


29
October 21, 1949
Charleston, SC
Furman
19–7


30
October 21, 1950
Greenville, SC
Furman
21–7


31
October 19, 1951
Orangeburg, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg,_South_Carolina)
Furman
35–14


32
October 17, 1952
Greenville, SC
Tie
7–7


33
October 2, 1953
Charleston, SC
Furman
27–0


34
October 16, 1954
Greenville, SC
Furman
31–20


35
October 15, 1955
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
25–19


36
October 27, 1956
Greenville, SC
Furman
7–0


37
October 26, 1957
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
18–14


38
October 25, 1958
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
24–6


39
October 24, 1959
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
18–14


40
October 22, 1960
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
7–6


41
October 21, 1961
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
9–8


42
October 27, 1962
Greenville, SC
Furman
33–25


43
October 26, 1963
Charleston, SC
Furman
34–25


44
October 24, 1964
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
17–0


45
November 20, 1965
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
28–0


46
November 19, 1966
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
10–6


47
November 18, 1967
Charleston, SC
Furman
14–6


48
October 5, 1968
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
31–12


49
November 15, 1969
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
37–21




No.
Date
Location
Winner
Score


50
November 14, 1970
Greenville, SC
Furman
28–21


51
November 13, 1971
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
35–33


52
November 11, 1972
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
19–13


53
November 10, 1973
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
26–21


54
November 16, 1974
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
24–0


55
November 15, 1975
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
13–9


56
September 25, 1976
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
17–16


57
November 19, 1977
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
10–3


58
November 18, 1978
Greenville, SC
Furman
17–13


59
November 17, 1979
Charleston, SC
Furman
45–44


60
November 22, 1980
Greenville, SC
Furman
28–15


61
November 21, 1981
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
35–18


62
November 20, 1982
Greenville, SC
Furman
27–0


63
November 19, 1983
Charleston, SC
Furman
49–21


64
November 17, 1984
Greenville, SC
Furman
42–14


65
November 16, 1985
Charleston, SC
Furman
42–0


66
November 22, 1986
Greenville, SC
Furman
37–14


67
November 21, 1987
Charleston, SC
Furman
58–13


68
November 19, 1988
Greenville, SC
Furman
30–17


69
November 18, 1989
Charleston, SC
Furman
44–9


70
November 17, 1990
Greenville, SC
Furman
30–17


71
November 23, 1991
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
10–6


72
November 21, 1992
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
20–14


73
October 16, 1993
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
20–10


74
October 15, 1994
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
52–44


75
October 14, 1995
Charleston, SC
Furman
24–3


76
October 19, 1996
Greenville, SC
Furman
35–25


77
October 18, 1997
Charleston, SC
Furman
21–7


78
October 17, 1998
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
25–24


79
October 16, 1999
Charleston, SC
Furman
31–17


80
October 14, 2000
Greenville, SC
Furman
33–7


81
October 13, 2001
Charleston, SC
Furman
30–7


82
October 19, 2002
Greenville, SC
Furman
37–10


83
October 18, 2003
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
10–9


84
October 16, 2004
Greenville, SC
Furman
33–14


85
October 15, 2005
Charleston, SC
Furman
39–313OT


86
October 14, 2006
Greenville, SC
Furman
23–17


87
October 13, 2007
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
54–51OT


88
October 18, 2008
Greenville, SC
Furman
34–20


89
October 24, 2009
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
38–28


90
September 25, 2010
Greenville, SC
Furman
31–14


91
September 10, 2011
Charleston, SC
Furman
16–6


92
November 17, 2012
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
42–20


93
September 28, 2013
Charleston, SC
Furman
24–17


94
November 8, 2014
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
42–35OT


95
October 24, 2015
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
38–17


96
September 10, 2016
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
19–14


97
November 11, 2017
Greenville, SC


Series: Furman leads 58–35–3





Other varsity sports[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_footbal l_rivalry&action=edit&section=3)]



Sport
Last Matchup
All-Time Series


Date
Location
Winner
Score
Attendance
Leader
Record


Baseball
April 28, 2017
Joseph P. Riley Jr. Park (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Riley_Jr._Park) • Charleston, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina)
Furman
4–2
606
The Citadel
133–96


April 29, 2017
Joseph P. Riley Jr. Park • Charleston, SC
Furman
19–2
406


April 30, 2017
Joseph P. Riley Jr. Park • Charleston, SC
Furman
13–1
459


Basketball (M)
December 31, 2016
Timmons Arena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timmons_Arena) • Greenville, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenville,_South_Carolina)
Furman
83–68
1,529
Furman
121–87


February 4, 2017
McAlister Field House (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McAlister_Field_House) • Charleston, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina)
Furman
99–91
4,388


Soccer (W)
October 1, 2017
WLI Field • Charleston, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina)
Furman
1–0
192
Furman
16–2


Volleyball (W)
October 3, 2017
McAlister Field House (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McAlister_Field_House) • Charleston, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina)
Furman
3–1
118
Furman
35–1



Discontinued sports[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_footbal l_rivalry&action=edit&section=4)]



Sport
Last Matchup
All-Time Series


Date
Location
Winner
Score
Leader
Record


Soccer (M)
August 30, 2002[a] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-8)
WLI Field • Charleston, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina)
Furman
3–0
Furman
28–11–2


Wrestling
December 5, 1990[b] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-9)
McAlister Field House (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McAlister_Field_House) • Charleston, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina)
The Citadel
25–12
The Citadel
14–0[c] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-10)




Jump up^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_r ef-8) The Citadel discontinued its men's soccer program after the 2002 season.
Jump up^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_r ef-9) Furman discontinued its wrestling program after the 1990–91 season.
Jump up^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_r ef-10) The results of 3 dual wrestling meets are undocumented.



References[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_footbal l_rivalry&action=edit&section=5)]



Jump up^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_r ef-1) 2012 The Citadel Football Fact Book (http://www.citadelsports.com/sports/fball/2012-13/files/Citadel_Football_Fact_Book.pdf) (PDF). The Citadel. pp. 110–111. Retrieved March 12, 2013.
Jump up^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_r ef-2) Jeff Hartsell (October 13, 2007). "Furman is Higgins' chosen football rival" (http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20071013/ARCHIVES/310139941#). Post and Courier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_and_Courier). Charleston, SC. Retrieved November 1, 2012.
Jump up^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_r ef-3) John Hooper (May 3, 2012). "Southern Conference's Greatest Rivalries: Furman vs Citadel" (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1170866-southern-conferences-greatest-rivalries-furman-vs-citadel). BleacherReport.com. Retrieved November 13, 2012.
Jump up^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_r ef-4) "President Plyler's Scrapbook Collection" (http://library.furman.edu/specialcollections/furman/president_plyler's_scrapbook_collection.htm). James B. Duke Library, Furman University. Retrieved November 13, 2012.
Jump up^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_r ef-5) Phil Kornblut (January 27, 2012). "Citadel and Furman return to end of season football rivalry" (http://sportstalkgolive.com/index.php/2012/01/27/citadel-and-furman-return-to-end-of-season-football-rivalry/). Sports Talk Radio Network. Retrieved November 13, 2012.
Jump up^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_r ef-6) "Furman, Citadel renew long, fierce rivalry" (http://thetandd.com/sports/article_223f1622-ad74-50be-a044-3623c3341a7f.html). Times and Democrat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_and_Democrat). Orangeburg, SC. October 18, 2008. Retrieved November 12, 2008.
Jump up^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_r ef-7) Michael Burns (November 17, 2012). "Similarities, differences make Furman-Citadel rivalry special" (http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20121117/SPORTS/311170014/Similarities-differences-make-Furman-Citadel-rivalry-special?gcheck=1&nclick_check=1). GreenvilleOnline.com. Retrieved November 25, 2012.







[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#)]



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The Citadel–Furman football rivalry

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/The_Citadel_Athletics_script.svg/52px-The_Citadel_Athletics_script.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Citadel_Athletics_script.svg)
The Citadel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_Bulldogs_football)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Furman_Paladins_logo.svg/71px-Furman_Paladins_logo.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Furman_Paladins_logo.svg)
Furman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furman_Paladins_football)





Sport
Football


First meeting
1913
The Citadel, 75–0


Latest meeting
2016
The Citadel, 19–14


Next meeting
2017


Statistics


Meetings total
96


All-time series
Furman, 58–35–3[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-1)


Largest victory
75–0, The Citadel (1913)


Longest win streak
9, Furman (1982–1990)


Longest unbeaten streak
13, Furman (1939–1954)


Current win streak
3, The Citadel



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/USA_South_Carolina_location_map.svg/200px-USA_South_Carolina_location_map.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_South_Carolina_location_map.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Blue_pog.svg/7px-Blue_pog.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel,_The_Military_College_of_South_Carolin a)

The Citadel

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Purple_pog.svg/7px-Purple_pog.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furman_University)

Furman



Locations in South Carolina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Carolina)


The Citadel–Furman football rivalry is an American college football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football) rivalry game played by The Citadel Bulldogs football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_Bulldogs_football) team of The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel,_The_Military_College_of_South_Carolin a) and the Furman Paladins football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furman_Paladins_football) team of Furman University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furman_University).

Contents

[hide]


1History (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#Histor y)
2Game results (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#Game_r esults)
3Other varsity sports (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#Other_ varsity_sports)
4Discontinued sports (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#Discon tinued_sports)
5References (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#Refere nces)


History[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_footbal l_rivalry&action=edit&section=1)]

The series dates to 1913, and has been played every year that both schools have fielded a football team since 1919, with only an interruption of 1943 through 1945 during World War II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II). Furman dominated the early years of the rivalry, winning 27 of the first 34 contests, which also included three ties. Since 1955, the series has been remarkably even, with many close, hard fought games and three of overtime contests since 2005.
The Paladins and Bulldogs have alternated home sites for most of their history, with contests played twice at the Orangeburg County Fairgrounds in Orangeburg, South Carolina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg,_South_Carolina). Furman won both games played in Orangeburg.
The series was an end of the season fixture on each team's schedule from 1965 through 1992, and returned to the last regular season weekend in 2012. When The Citadel's other primary rival, VMI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMI_Keydets_football), departed the Southern Conference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Conference), Bulldog coaches worked to restore Furman as their primary rival in the minds of their players and fans.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_football_rivalry#cite_n ote-7)
In the most recent meeting, on September 10, 2016, The Citadel won its third straight over the Paladins by a score of 19–14, en route to an undefeated SoCon season and their second consecutive conference championship.
Game results[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Citadel%E2%80%93Furman_footbal l_rivalry&action=edit&section=2)]



The Citadel victories
Furman victories
Tie games






No.
Date
Location
Winner
Score


1
November 1, 1913
Charleston, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina)
The Citadel
75–0


2
November 1, 1919
Greenville, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenville,_South_Carolina)
Furman
21–6


3
October 9, 1920
Charleston, SC
Furman
21–6


4
October 29, 1921
Greenville, SC
Furman
42–0


5
October 19, 1922
Charleston, SC
Furman
28–0


6
October 20, 1923
Greenville, SC
Furman
30–14


7
October 25, 1924
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
6–0


8
October 10, 1925
Greenville, SC
Furman
7–0


9
November 20, 1926
Charleston, SC
Furman
7–0


10
November 19, 1927
Charleston, SC
Furman
6–0


11
November 10, 1928
Greenville, SC
Furman
13–0


12
November 9, 1929
Charleston, SC
Tie
0–0


13
November 22, 1930
Greenville, SC
Furman
31–6


14
November 14, 1931
Charleston, SC
Furman
33–7


15
October 27, 1932
Orangeburg, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg,_South_Carolina)
Furman
20–0


16
October 14, 1933
Greenville, SC
Furman
14–0


17
November 10, 1934
Charleston, SC
Furman
6–0


18
November 2, 1935
Greenville, SC
Furman
35–0


19
October 10, 1936
Greenville, SC
Furman
13–7


20
October 16, 1937
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
8–0


21
October 15, 1938
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
9–6


22
October 14, 1939
Charleston, SC
Furman
7–0


23
October 11, 1940
Greenville, SC
Furman
36–7


24
October 18, 1941
Charleston, SC
Tie
13–13


25
November 7, 1942
Greenville, SC
Furman
20–0


26
October 19, 1946
Charleston, SC
Furman
14–0


27
October 17, 1947
Greenville, SC
Furman
7–0


28
October 23, 1948
Greenville, SC
Furman
9–0


29
October 21, 1949
Charleston, SC
Furman
19–7


30
October 21, 1950
Greenville, SC
Furman
21–7


31
October 19, 1951
Orangeburg, SC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg,_South_Carolina)
Furman
35–14


32
October 17, 1952
Greenville, SC
Tie
7–7


33
October 2, 1953
Charleston, SC
Furman
27–0


34
October 16, 1954
Greenville, SC
Furman
31–20


35
October 15, 1955
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
25–19


36
October 27, 1956
Greenville, SC
Furman
7–0


37
October 26, 1957
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
18–14


38
October 25, 1958
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
24–6


39
October 24, 1959
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
18–14


40
October 22, 1960
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
7–6


41
October 21, 1961
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
9–8


42
October 27, 1962
Greenville, SC
Furman
33–25


43
October 26, 1963
Charleston, SC
Furman
34–25


44
October 24, 1964
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
17–0


45
November 20, 1965
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
28–0


46
November 19, 1966
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
10–6


47
November 18, 1967
Charleston, SC
Furman
14–6


48
October 5, 1968
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
31–12


49
November 15, 1969
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
37–21




No.
Date
Location
Winner
Score


50
November 14, 1970
Greenville, SC
Furman
28–21


51
November 13, 1971
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
35–33


52
November 11, 1972
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
19–13


53
November 10, 1973
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
26–21


54
November 16, 1974
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
24–0


55
November 15, 1975
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
13–9


56
September 25, 1976
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
17–16


57
November 19, 1977
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
10–3


58
November 18, 1978
Greenville, SC
Furman
17–13


59
November 17, 1979
Charleston, SC
Furman
45–44


60
November 22, 1980
Greenville, SC
Furman
28–15


61
November 21, 1981
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
35–18


62
November 20, 1982
Greenville, SC
Furman
27–0


63
November 19, 1983
Charleston, SC
Furman
49–21


64
November 17, 1984
Greenville, SC
Furman
42–14


65
November 16, 1985
Charleston, SC
Furman
42–0


66
November 22, 1986
Greenville, SC
Furman
37–14


67
November 21, 1987
Charleston, SC
Furman
58–13


68
November 19, 1988
Greenville, SC
Furman
30–17


69
November 18, 1989
Charleston, SC
Furman
44–9


70
November 17, 1990
Greenville, SC
Furman
30–17


71
November 23, 1991
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
10–6


72
November 21, 1992
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
20–14


73
October 16, 1993
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
20–10


74
October 15, 1994
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
52–44


75
October 14, 1995
Charleston, SC
Furman
24–3


76
October 19, 1996
Greenville, SC
Furman
35–25


77
October 18, 1997
Charleston, SC
Furman
21–7


78
October 17, 1998
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
25–24


79
October 16, 1999
Charleston, SC
Furman
31–17


80
October 14, 2000
Greenville, SC
Furman
33–7


81
October 13, 2001
Charleston, SC
Furman
30–7


82
October 19, 2002
Greenville, SC
Furman
37–10


83
October 18, 2003
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
10–9


84
October 16, 2004
Greenville, SC
Furman
33–14


85
October 15, 2005
Charleston, SC
Furman
39–313OT


86
October 14, 2006
Greenville, SC
Furman
23–17


87
October 13, 2007
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
54–51OT


88
October 18, 2008
Greenville, SC
Furman
34–20


89
October 24, 2009
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
38–28


90
September 25, 2010
Greenville, SC
Furman
31–14


91
September 10, 2011
Charleston, SC
Furman
16–6


92
November 17, 2012
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
42–20


93
September 28, 2013
Charleston, SC
Furman
24–17


94
November 8, 2014
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
42–35OT


95
October 24, 2015
Greenville, SC
The Citadel
38–17


96
September 10, 2016
Charleston, SC
The Citadel
19–14


97
November 11, 2017
Greenville, SC


Series: Furman leads 58–35–3






Bottom Line!

[citdog]

The only important things in your cut and paste that matter are 75-0 and 3 IN A ROW...

[Serpentor]

*Snrk* Did you just paste the entire article in that thread? I mean, the infographic at the top would have been enough...

[soconjohn5]

Not really but keep telling yourself that...It's better therapy than your shrink can provide.

[soconjohn5]

It was worth it Cobra Commander or Destro

[soconjohn5]

Problem is Furman's wins over The Citadel wouldn't fit into an infographic...Too many.

[citdog]

Problem is Furman's wins over The Citadel wouldn't fit into an infographic...Too many.

you spelled vermin wrong

[Professor Chaos]

Seems to be an appropriate time to bring back this classic.

"Da Furman Code!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta9X9mb4erQ

[soconjohn5]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVwyvw0LaIg

[citdog]

Seems to be an appropriate time to bring back this classic.

"Da Furman Code!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta9X9mb4erQ

The Jewish carpenter was displeased by this black magic at a baptist school...

[Redbird 4th & short]

Problem with your argument is the SOS is skewed to teams who played a FBS opponent, I dont think getting blown out by a FBS team should go towards your SOS. Who cares, and Pitt is awful they are 1-7 against FBS opponents so going toe to toe with them is not a accomplishment, half of the teams in our division could do that. The playoffs will sort all this out. If SHSU and Central get to quarters or semis it will be the same story different year. WE do it consistently and then its always "overrated", when in reality it is under achieved. Also, take away Tom Brady and how good does New England look on both sides of the ball. Take Cam Newton from Auburn and how do they look? When your offense centers around one player and he can barely lift his arm you are going to get blown out when your defense spends the entire game on the field. Such ignorance. Do you think NDSU wins 4 in a row without Wentz? Absolutely not. Delaware wins without Falco? I could go on all day.

ISU beat NW last year. YSU took Pitt into OT this year and lost by TD .. and Pitt is not 1-7 or awful; they are 4-5, and ranked about 45th in FBS .. not sure where you got your info. Also note, half the MVFC teams didn't get an FBS game this year, thanks to Barry Alvarez campaign to force Big 10 to ban all FCS games .. since partially rescinded in years they need another home game. So that isn't the true. Also note, NDSU didn't win 4 in a row with Wents .. they won 3 in a row with Jensen, followed by 2 in a row with Wentz .. in fact, the 2nd time Wentz was injured almost entire regular season .. and they won every game without him.

Other note, I have posted here several times, defending SHSU accomplishments over the years. Though noting they sometimes fail to deliver against top tier teams because their schedule does not prepare them for really tough teams. That said, I have said before, SHSU results since 2010 are 2nd only to NDSU and they deserve more credit for this. buyt SHSU has gotten beaten badly several times as they got further into playoffs. I think SHSU should play tougher OOC schedule to help prepare for FCS playoff - might help you against top teams. Still, they have proven themselves to be 2nd best since 2010.

[soconjohn5]

LOL Citdog...Nice one...I like this

[soconjohn5]

I think Professor Chaos is a Georgia Southern fan having some nostalgic moments since they would finish lower than VMI in the SoCon!

[Redbird 4th & short]

I just have 1 question. When was the last time a MVFC team not named North Dakota State won an actual title? Conference, National?

Seems to me this whole thread is a bunch of squabbling over participation trophies behind NDSU. =)

no, it is not .. anyone can tell you who won any given game or natty .. so this thread is not about that at all. It's about rankings and strength of schedule used to determine who wil make playoff and get what seeds. Basically trying to figure out best approach to ranking teams.

Clearly Wins-Losses barely scratches surface and are not a good indicator of who should be ranked where. If that obvious reality is too much to comprehend, the you or anyone are free to stay out of the argument. And I don't know anyone who believes Sagarin or Massey is THE definitive ranking system .. much less that MVFC has 7 teams in top 10. It is a source for good information .. and a much better source than FCP Coaches Poll or Stats poll .. certainly more accurate and far more objective.

[ElCid]

you spelled vermin wrong

I think he spelled SUCKS wrong as well.

[caribbeanhen]

ISU beat NW last year. YSU took Pitt into OT this year and lost by TD .. and Pitt is not 1-7 or awful; they are 4-5, and ranked about 45th in FBS .. not sure where you got your info. Also note, half the MVFC teams didn't get an FBS game this year, thanks to Barry Alvarez campaign to force Big 10 to ban all FCS games .. since partially rescinded in years they need another home game. So that isn't the true. Also note, NDSU didn't win 4 in a row with Wents .. they won 3 in a row with Jensen, followed by 2 in a row with Wentz .. in fact, the 2nd time Wentz was injured almost entire regular season .. and they won every game without him.

Other note, I have posted here several times, defending SHSU accomplishments over the years. Though noting they sometimes fail to deliver against top tier teams because their schedule does not prepare them for really tough teams. That said, I have said before, SHSU results since 2010 are 2nd only to NDSU and they deserve more credit for this. buyt SHSU has gotten beaten badly several times as they got further into playoffs. I think SHSU should play tougher OOC schedule to help prepare for FCS playoff - might help you against top teams. Still, they have proven themselves to be 2nd best since 2010.

if Sam Houston State played a tougher out of conference schedule they might not be making the playoffs

[ST_Lawson]

Not trying to knock WIU but I think the NAU win was much more impressive than the Coastal beatdown.

You're not wrong.

Also, I agree with not counting FBS games for the most part...if you lose. But if you beat an FBS...that should be taken into account somewhat (and I would be saying that even if we didn't beat CCU this season or NIU last season). You should get credit for that.

[JSUSoutherner]

You're not wrong.

Also, I agree with not counting FBS games for the most part...if you lose. But if you beat an FBS...that should be taken into account somewhat (and I would be saying that even if we didn't beat CCU this season or NIU last season). You should get credit for that.

I'm not saying you guys shouldn't be credited for it. It was a game where WIU really showed off and that should be recognized. However, I think beating Coastal shouldn't be championed as one of the better teams you have beat. Because they're not.

[thebootfitter]

Problem with your argument is the SOS is skewed to teams who played a FBS opponent, I dont think getting blown out by a FBS team should go towards your SOS. Who cares, and Pitt is awful they are 1-7 against FBS opponents so going toe to toe with them is not a accomplishment, half of the teams in our division could do that. The playoffs will sort all this out. If SHSU and Central get to quarters or semis it will be the same story different year. WE do it consistently and then its always "overrated", when in reality it is under achieved. Also, take away Tom Brady and how good does New England look on both sides of the ball. Take Cam Newton from Auburn and how do they look? When your offense centers around one player and he can barely lift his arm you are going to get blown out when your defense spends the entire game on the field. Such ignorance. Do you think NDSU wins 4 in a row without Wentz? Absolutely not. Delaware wins without Falco? I could go on all day.

There's so much wrong with this post... I think some folks have already addressed other points (Pitt's record? Wentz at the helm for 4 championships??? Falco???) Too much to really focus on, so I'll just highlight your first statement:
SOS isn't "skewed" by playing an FBS team. SOS is dependent upon the quality of teams you play. If you play a ****ty FBS team, your SOS may decrease. If you play a really good FCS team, your SOS may increase. The FBS label has nothing to do with it other than there are more FBS teams that are stronger than FCS teams and fewer that are weaker. But it still depends upon the specific teams you play. Not the label. And at least per Sagarin's rating system, a team doesn't get rewarded for getting blown out by a strong team. In fact, you might get knocked back in your rating for getting blown out. If you have a really strong SOS and are losing games by just a few points, your rating will be pretty high. If you have a really strong SOS but are getting blown out every week, your rating will probably be pretty low.

[Cocky]

I don't think the win in itself is all that impressive but the fact that they beat them by 42 (CCU's worst loss of the year) and outgained them 510-307 is impressive. CCU actually outgained Georgia St despite losing to them 27-21 so it's pretty misleading to compare Georgia St's win over CCU to WIU's win over CCU without putting each in context.

Context: CCU lost to a team which was beaten by a team with ONE win in the OVC.

Spin it anyway you like but its still not one of your better wins.

[Professor Chaos]

Context: CCU lost to a team which was beaten by a team with ONE win in the OVC.

Spin it anyway you like but its still not one of your better wins.
I know, Team X lost to Team Y who lost to Team Z who lost to Team A and so on. Keep going far enough and everyone beat someone who isn't any good. CCU isn't good but I think they would be fringe top 25 if they were still FCS and WIU treated them like they were a NEC bottom dweller on the road no less. Anytime an FCS team beats an FBS team by 42 it's a quality win, especially when that's the worst loss the FBS team took all year.

[UNIFanSince1983]

http://www.myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com/

Let's settle it once and for all.

[WestCoastAggie]

http://www.myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com/

Let's settle it once and for all.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26397&stc=1

[Cocky]

I know, Team X lost to Team Y who lost to Team Z who lost to Team A and so on. Keep going far enough and everyone beat someone who isn't any good. CCU isn't good but I think they would be fringe top 25 if they were still FCS and WIU treated them like they were a NEC bottom dweller on the road no less. Anytime an FCS team beats an FBS team by 42 it's a quality win, especially when that's the worst loss the FBS team took all year.
You dont have to go far down the chain on CCU for Team ?.

WIU is the best team CCU has played this year so having the largest margin is expected. I will add point margins are about as transitive as W/Ls (still WIU is their best opponent). Some coaches like style points others like to play reserves and some teams, like CCU, allow you to both at the same time.

[Cocky]

Can get confusing?

http://www.myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com/images/Jacksonville_St.gif (http://www.myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com/showalllosers.asp?sport=CFB&winner=Jacksonville+St&year=2017)

http://www.myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com/images/South_Dakota.gif






Read More!Click on the game row to read more about the game.



myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com



Div I - FCS
Jacksonville St
beat
Tennessee Tech
34 - 7



Div I - FCS
Tennessee Tech
beat
Tennessee St
30 - 26



Div I - FCS
Tennessee St
beat
Georgia St
17 - 10



Div I - FBS
Georgia St
beat
ULM
47 - 37



Div I - FBS
ULM
beat
ULL
56 - 50



Div I - FBS
ULL
beat
Idaho
21 - 16



Div I - FBS
Idaho
beat
CS Sacramento
28 - 6



Div I - FCS
CS Sacramento
beat
Southern Utah
54 - 27



Div I - FCS
Southern Utah
beat
Northern Iowa
24 - 21



Div I - FCS
Northern Iowa
beat
S Illinois
24 - 17



Div I - FCS
S Illinois
beat
Illinois St
42 - 7



Div I - FCS
Illinois St
beat
South Dakota
37 - 21



Therefore, Jacksonville St is better than South Dakota in 2017as shown in 12 rounds by a combined score of 414 - 245.








http://www.myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com/images/South_Dakota.gif (http://www.myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com/showalllosers.asp?sport=CFB&winner=South+Dakota&year=2017)

http://www.myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com/images/Jacksonville_St.gif






Read More!Click on the game row to read more about the game.



myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com



Div I - FCS
South Dakota
beat
Bowling Green
35 - 27



Div I - FBS
Bowling Green
beat
Miami OH
37 - 29



Div I - FBS
Miami OH
beat
Buffalo
24 - 14



Div I - FBS
Buffalo
beat
FL Atlantic
34 - 31



Div I - FBS
FL Atlantic
beat
MTSU
38 - 20



Div I - FBS
MTSU
beat
Syracuse
30 - 23



Div I - FBS
Syracuse
beat
Clemson
27 - 24



Div I - FBS
Clemson
beat
Georgia Tech
24 - 10



Div I - FBS
Georgia Tech
beat
Jacksonville St
37 - 10



Therefore, South Dakota is better than Jacksonville St in 2017as shown in 9 rounds by a combined score of 286 - 188.

[Mayville Bison]

ISU beat NW last year. YSU took Pitt into OT this year and lost by TD .. and Pitt is not 1-7 or awful; they are 4-5, and ranked about 45th in FBS .. not sure where you got your info. Also note, half the MVFC teams didn't get an FBS game this year, thanks to Barry Alvarez campaign to force Big 10 to ban all FCS games .. since partially rescinded in years they need another home game. So that isn't the true. Also note, NDSU didn't win 4 in a row with Wents .. they won 3 in a row with Jensen, followed by 2 in a row with Wentz .. in fact, the 2nd time Wentz was injured almost entire regular season .. and they won every game without him.

Other note, I have posted here several times, defending SHSU accomplishments over the years. Though noting they sometimes fail to deliver against top tier teams because their schedule does not prepare them for really tough teams. That said, I have said before, SHSU results since 2010 are 2nd only to NDSU and they deserve more credit for this. buyt SHSU has gotten beaten badly several times as they got further into playoffs. I think SHSU should play tougher OOC schedule to help prepare for FCS playoff - might help you against top teams. Still, they have proven themselves to be 2nd best since 2010.

I'll give them 4th best (unless you mean after the 2010 season then it's 3rd). I'll take one title and any other results in a 7 year period over 7 2nd place finishes.

[kalm]

There's so much wrong with this post... I think some folks have already addressed other points (Pitt's record? Wentz at the helm for 4 championships??? Falco???) Too much to really focus on, so I'll just highlight your first statement:
SOS isn't "skewed" by playing an FBS team. SOS is dependent upon the quality of teams you play. If you play a ****ty FBS team, your SOS may decrease. If you play a really good FCS team, your SOS may increase. The FBS label has nothing to do with it other than there are more FBS teams that are stronger than FCS teams and fewer that are weaker. But it still depends upon the specific teams you play. Not the label. And at least per Sagarin's rating system, a team doesn't get rewarded for getting blown out by a strong team. In fact, you might get knocked back in your rating for getting blown out. If you have a really strong SOS and are losing games by just a few points, your rating will be pretty high. If you have a really strong SOS but are getting blown out every week, your rating will probably be pretty low.

Well said. SoS is not the end all be all just like wins and losses aren't. It takes just a few extra moments to drill down past the computer SoS's when comparing two teams and quality wins/losses. A blow out loss to an FBS is just a one game occurrence, always played on the road, against a team with more schollies who you should lose to. It doesn't shape the entire resume. Many really good FCS teams suffer these and go on to great seasons (look at JMU last year for reference). Hell, I sometimes think blowout losses to FCS teams get over-considered. Great teams can have bad games.

FBS losses are expected and shouldn't weigh that heavily. When there's an upset against a quality FBS team it raises the profile. When there's a near loss it should also raise the profile but not as much. The same can be said for when there's a blowout win of a crappy FBS.

[Cocky]

ISU beat NW last year. YSU took Pitt into OT this year and lost by TD .. and Pitt is not 1-7 or awful; they are 4-5, and ranked about 45th in FBS .. not sure where you got your info. Also note, half the MVFC teams didn't get an FBS game this year, thanks to Barry Alvarez campaign to force Big 10 to ban all FCS games .. since partially rescinded in years they need another home game. So that isn't the true. Also note, NDSU didn't win 4 in a row with Wents .. they won 3 in a row with Jensen, followed by 2 in a row with Wentz .. in fact, the 2nd time Wentz was injured almost entire regular season .. and they won every game without him.

Other note, I have posted here several times, defending SHSU accomplishments over the years. Though noting they sometimes fail to deliver against top tier teams because their schedule does not prepare them for really tough teams. That said, I have said before, SHSU results since 2010 are 2nd only to NDSU and they deserve more credit for this. buyt SHSU has gotten beaten badly several times as they got further into playoffs. I think SHSU should play tougher OOC schedule to help prepare for FCS playoff - might help you against top teams. Still, they have proven themselves to be 2nd best since 2010.

SHSU and JSU have the same OOC problem. Our best top level FCS competition (in our area) play in the SunBelt and CUSA. These teams will not play us. If we could get one to play it would not included a home game.

[Daytripper]

SHSU and JSU have the same OOC problem. Our best top level FCS competition (in our area) play in the SunBelt and CUSA. These teams will not play us. If we could get one to play it would not included a home game.

This. We would love to play North Texas, UTEP, Rice, or UTSA...or even UH or SMU, but they won't do it. We used to get a shot at Baylor, but I guarantee that won't happen again now that the are bad again. Our only FBS games in recent years are Baylor, TAMU and LSU. Hell, we had New Mexico on the schedule and they bailed.

And Texas State is just plain scared...

[kalm]

This. We would love to play North Texas, UTEP, Rice, or UTSA...or even UH or SMU, but they won't do it. We used to get a shot at Baylor, but I guarantee that won't happen again now that the are bad again. Our only FBS games in recent years are Baylor, TAMU and LSU. Hell, we had New Mexico on the schedule and they bailed.

And Texas State is just plain scared...

You both do a nice job of scheduling OOC. xthumbsupx

[Daytripper]

You both do a nice job of scheduling OOC. xthumbsupx

I forgot about Texas Tech a couple of years ago. We made them ****e their pants when they realized we actually were competitive...

[Redbird 4th & short]

I'll give them 4th best (unless you mean after the 2010 season then it's 3rd). I'll take one title and any other results in a 7 year period over 7 2nd place finishes.

i think you have way overstated your point .. would you really trade 1 year of championship for 6 bad years to follow .. really ??? Let me know during bad year 5 if you still feel that way. We're talking about ranking teams in a given year, and then evaluating programs oevr many years. Again, if one and done is all anyone cared about ... not for me. I like to be in the hunt every year. That is how you evaluate a strong program .. that is how you get fans and donors to step up. That is how you attract better recruits and coaches.

[Redbird 4th & short]

SHSU and JSU have the same OOC problem. Our best top level FCS competition (in our area) play in the SunBelt and CUSA. These teams will not play us. If we could get one to play it would not included a home game.

if true, then that would suck. but somehow, 90% of FCS teams are able to schedule FBS games every year.

Side note, thanks to Barry Alvarez, half of the 10% that didn't get FBS are in MVFC this year for 1st time. Big 10 got tired of too many close games and losses .. said it made them uncompetitive .. even though every other FBS conference does it. But ... the Big 10 "wus" rule was since changed to allow Big 10 to play an FCS during years they have extra conference road game, to help them balance home/away slate.

[Mayville Bison]

i think you have way overstated your point .. would you really trade 1 year of championship for 6 bad years to follow .. really ??? Let me know during bad year 5 if you still feel that way. We're talking about ranking teams in a given year, and then evaluating programs oevr many years. Again, if one and done is all anyone cared about ... not for me. I like to be in the hunt every year. That is how you evaluate a strong program .. that is how you get fans and donors to step up. That is how you attract better recruits and coaches.

Yes, I would take a championship followed by 6 3-8 seasons. There are only 21 teams that can call themselves FCS/1AA champions - pretty elite crew in my mind. Even though Idaho State hasn't won one since 81, that's still better than countless other teams.

This may partially be coming from the fact I'm a Vikings fan...

[kalm]

if true, then that would suck. but somehow, 90% of FCS teams are able to schedule FBS games every year.

Side note, thanks to Barry Alvarez, half of the 10% that didn't get FBS are in MVFC this year for 1st time. Big 10 got tired of too many close games and losses .. said it made them uncompetitive .. even though every other FBS conference does it. But ... the Big 10 "wus" rule was since changed to allow Big 10 to play an FCS during years they have extra conference road game, to help them balance home/away slate.

Good point. EWU has played UCONN, WV, and Toledo and have Florida coming up in 2020. Geography isn't much of an excuse.

[WestCoastAggie]

This. We would love to play North Texas, UTEP, Rice, or UTSA...or even UH or SMU, but they won't do it. We used to get a shot at Baylor, but I guarantee that won't happen again now that the are bad again. Our only FBS games in recent years are Baylor, TAMU and LSU. Hell, we had New Mexico on the schedule and they bailed.

And Texas State is just plain scared...

Our local G5 schools will stop scheduling A&T soon as well. After ECU in 2018, we'll only have Duke for an FBS payday.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Yes, I would take a championship followed by 6 3-8 seasons. There are only 21 teams that can call themselves FCS/1AA champions - pretty elite crew in my mind. Even though Idaho State hasn't won one since 81, that's still better than countless other teams.

This may partially be coming from the fact I'm a Vikings fan...
man, you are a glutton for misery. We really enjoyed the Natty run in 2014 up until about the 38 second point in Q4 .. kind of sucked then. But other than that part, I'm pretty sure "Mrs Lincoln actually enjoyed the rest of the play". :D

But the thought of sucking for 6 straight years, or even 4 straight years, is hard to fathom liking the trade you suggest. Under 4 years, I would take your trade for the 1st Natty .. not sure thereafter. I really like being in the hunt every year .. speaking as a former athlete and now over-zealous fan.

And no, the irony of a Bison fan arguing that they would do anything for just ONE Natty ... is not lost on me.

p.s. to further make my point, as an ISUr fan today, I would never trade places with an Idaho State like situation, just to say I won a Natty 25+ years ago .. and I doubt you would either.

[UNIFanSince1983]

I can tell you what UNI struggling like we have for the past years would have been much easier if we had won a Championship already.

[Cocky]

if true, then that would suck. but somehow, 90% of FCS teams are able to schedule FBS games every year.

Side note, thanks to Barry Alvarez, half of the 10% that didn't get FBS are in MVFC this year for 1st time. Big 10 got tired of too many close games and losses .. said it made them uncompetitive .. even though every other FBS conference does it. But ... the Big 10 "wus" rule was since changed to allow Big 10 to play an FCS during years they have extra conference road game, to help them balance home/away slate.
My point is more along the lines of our good FCS teams are now pretend FBS teams. Yes we may have the ability to go play a top-level FBS team but the talent level is so different it’s hard to gauge where you rank on the FCS level.

[Hammersmith]

Maybe some of you would like Sagarin's newest column. He does a total of four ratings. The main one is some kind of synthesis of the other three. Of that latter group, he's created a rating that weighs the more recent games more heavily and has absolutely no link to previous seasons. Only five MVFC in the top-ten, though they still make up five of the top-six. Here it is:

1. 31 NDSU
2. 51 JMU
3. 77 USD
4. 80 SDSU
5. 85 UNI
6. 86 ISUr
7. 87 JSU
8. 89 UCA
9. 91 NAU
10. 97 SUU

[TheKingpin28]

Maybe some of you would like Sagarin's newest column. He does a total of four ratings. The main one is some kind of synthesis of the other three. Of that latter group, he's created a rating that weighs the more recent games more heavily and has absolutely no link to previous seasons. Only five MVFC in the top-ten, though they still make up five of the top-six. Here it is:

1. 31 NDSU
2. 51 JMU
3. 77 USD
4. 80 SDSU
5. 85 UNI
6. 86 ISUr
7. 87 JSU
8. 89 UCA
9. 91 NAU
10. 97 SUU

You are just asking for the CAA fanboys to start crying and bitching about the biases in these ratings.

[nevadagriz]

I think YSU being ranked that high is like if vanderbilt was ranked that high. Both play in the best conference in their divisions and both have a juggernaut in their division. At some point you do have to win games I don't care for close loses. If Vandy was ranked that high people would **** same with YSU this year.

[Gangtackle11]

You are just asking for the CAA fanboys to start crying and bitching about the biases in these ratings.

It’s obvious the NCAA committee renders Sagarin & Massey useless or you would have more than 3 of the 10 spots. Sagarin & Massey are fun for you proud MVFC thundering herd, but likes tits on a bull useless drivel for most of us. xpeacex