Presbyterian College Considering Move to Pioneer?

[DFW HOYA]

So says a petition in the local paper. Anyone heard more on this?
(Link credit: PFL Message Board)

http://www.clintonchronicle.com/sports/petition-delay-action-pc-football

[Model Citizen]

Everyone wants to be Davidson.

[WestCoastAggie]

Interesting.

[Model Citizen]

While Presbyterian's recruiters twist in the wind, it may be comforting to know that the answer to the scholarship question has been predetermined.

[NorthChuckSouth]

If a school switches to non-scholarship, are athletes allowed to transfer without penalty?

[ngineer]

If a school switches to non-scholarship, are athletes allowed to transfer without penalty?

Why, unless their scholarships are revoked?

[Go...gate]

I believe the scholarships would have to be carried to completion.

[Model Citizen]

It's not the same as if the program gets terminated. So basically, a transfer looking to play immediately would need to go to a lower division or NAIA school.

[NorthChuckSouth]

It's not the same as if the program gets terminated. So basically, a transfer looking to play immediately would need to go to a lower division or NAIA school.


I believe the scholarships would have to be carried to completion.

I gotcha.. Just wondering. Personally, I would hate if I went to a school and had my scholarship taken away due to things out of my control and not be able to leave

[Catamount87]

Honestly, this is probably the best thing for Presbyterian to do at this point. They really are between a rock and a hard place. They're a small private school located in a small rural town, with a limited alumni base, located in a region full of either very successful or larger, better funded programs/schools.

[SCPALADIN]

...this would throw another monkey wrench into the Big South master plan.

[wcugrad95]

I believe the scholarships would have to be carried to completion.

Not sure what you meant by this? An athletic scholarship is renewable each year, so if they drop to non-scholarship football the players would be covered for the remainder of the year but would not be on scholarship the next year. I don't think the school can claim "non-scholarship" if they still give athletic scholarships to the guys that are still there. Although this is pretty unusual and obscure, so maybe there are some specific rules. I would actually think the NCAA would waive the transfer and sit rules for players who have no choice but to transfer, but again I'd have to go look for the actual rules and guidelines and that probably is buried somewhere on the site.

[walliver]

PC has no "money games" scheduled after 2019, and there is some speculation on their Reddit (they no longer have a fan website) that that was intentional. Obviously, if they drop scholarships immediately, they would no longer be a "counter" for FBS teams.

As a point of reference, PC is the 7th largest D-I team in their TV market (behind Clemson, Furman, Wofford, and Western Carolina as well as USC-Upstate and UNC-Asheville).

[ST_Lawson]

Not sure what you meant by this? An athletic scholarship is renewable each year, so if they drop to non-scholarship football the players would be covered for the remainder of the year but would not be on scholarship the next year. I don't think the school can claim "non-scholarship" if they still give athletic scholarships to the guys that are still there. Although this is pretty unusual and obscure, so maybe there are some specific rules. I would actually think the NCAA would waive the transfer and sit rules for players who have no choice but to transfer, but again I'd have to go look for the actual rules and guidelines and that probably is buried somewhere on the site.

That'd be my guess. This is one of those situations where, as far as I know, it's never really happened like this before. Schools have dropped divisions and switched to non-scholarship before (example: Centenary College went DI->DIII...no football, but I think the situation is similar), but it's not really dropping divisions, it's just dropping scholarships to 0. I'd imagine that the NCAA would probably make an exemption and allow players to transfer to another school, even another FCS one, if they wanted to continue playing under "scholarship".

The other possibility would be slowly scale back on scholarships. Do like they do when a school changes divisions...take a few years, honor existing scholarships (re-upping them each year), but not issuing any new ones. Play against mostly Pioneer teams in the interim, but they don't count as a Pioneer team (ineligible for the conference autobid, not included in conference standings, etc.) until they have eliminated all scholarships.

[Reign of Terrier]

I think it was a bad idea for PC to go D1 in the first place.

[Model Citizen]

I see that there are more exceptions to the year residency rule (sitting out a year) than I thought.

14.5.5.2.10
One-Time Transfer Exception.

The student transfers to the certifying institution from
another four-year collegiate institution, and all of the following conditions are met (for graduate students,
see Bylaw 14.6.1): (Revised: 1/16/93 effective 8/1/93, 1/11/94, 1/10/95, 1/9/96, 1/11/97, 11/1/00 effective
8/1/01, 4/26/01, 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05, 4/27/06 effective 10/15/06, 12/15/06, 4/27/07 effective 8/1/08,
4/29/10 effective 8/1/10, 4/22/11)


(a) The student is a participant in a sport other than baseball, basketball, bowl subdivision football or
men’s ice hockey at the institution to which the student is transferring. A participant in championship
subdivision football at the institution to which the student is transferring may use this exception
only if the participant transferred to the certifying institution from an institution that sponsors
bowl subdivision football and has two or more seasons of competition remaining in football or the
participant transfers from a Football Championship Subdivision institution that offers athletically
related financial aid in football to a Football Championship Subdivision institution that does not
offer athletically related financial aid in football;


(b) The student has not transferred previously from one four-year institution unless, in the previous
transfer, the student-athlete received an exception per Bylaw 14.5.5.2.6 (discontinued/nonsponsored
sport exception);


(c) At the time of transfer to the certifying institution (see Bylaw 14.5.2), the student would have been
academically eligible had he or she remained at the institution from which the student transferred,
except that he or she is not required to have fulfilled the necessary percentage-of-degree requirements
at the previous institution; and


(d) If the student is transferring from an NCAA or NAIA member institution, the student’s previous
institution shall certify in writing that it has no objection to the student being granted an exception
to the transfer-residence requirement. If an institution receives a written request for a release from a
student-athlete, the institution shall grant or deny the request within seven business days... (complete rule exceeds size limits for one post.)

[Model Citizen]

I think the last part of (a) is The Revenge of Dayton Rule. xlolx

[Laker]

I think it was a bad idea for PC to go D1 in the first place.

Yes- and several other schools that I can think of.

[walliver]

I think it was a bad idea for PC to go D1 in the first place.

It was always something of a head scratcher, but I suspect they felt like they had no choice. D2 had become an academic wasteland. 11 years before, Wofford had decided that D2 was unsustainable and formed a committee to decide whether to move to D-I or D3 and chose D-I. Elon moved up 4 years later. PC, by this time, was having issues with fund-raising due to their location (I actually had a small investment in a "fine dining" restaurant in Clinton that PC set up so that they didn't have to take potential donors to Greenville or Spartanburg to go to eat), and fell far behind schools that they felt were their academic peers. PC's first call when they decided to move was to the SoCon (which politely but forcefully declined).

Unfortunately, enrollment has not increased with the move.

[UNHWildcat18]

What's a PC? If they are going to drop scholarships they should just can the program. The college football landscape is diluted with enough poorly supported programs from FBS to Div3

[Reign of Terrier]

It was always something of a head scratcher, but I suspect they felt like they had no choice. D2 had become an academic wasteland. 11 years before, Wofford had decided that D2 was unsustainable and formed a committee to decide whether to move to D-I or D3 and chose D-I. Elon moved up 4 years later. PC, by this time, was having issues with fund-raising due to their location (I actually had a small investment in a "fine dining" restaurant in Clinton that PC set up so that they didn't have to take potential donors to Greenville or Spartanburg to go to eat), and fell far behind schools that they felt were their academic peers. PC's first call when they decided to move was to the SoCon (which politely but forcefully declined).

Unfortunately, enrollment has not increased with the move.

As I've said in other places, PC's problems amount to geography (Clinton is in the middle of nowhere), lack of recognition (I'm one of the few people on this board who went through the college search in the last decade...I wouldn't have heard of PC had it not been for Wofford and Wofford and Furman are pretty household names in SC), lack of funding, lack of success and lack of enthusiasm.

If they had any of those things they could improve on all the others, except geography.

[ccd494]

Usually when schools drop a sport, they grandfather the scholarships. So, if University X drops tennis and had four sophomores on scholarship, they'd honor the scholarships until graduation.

I'd presume PC would do the same. The current players would keep their scholarships, but no incoming players would receive athletic scholarships.

[Model Citizen]

Usually when schools drop a sport, they grandfather the scholarships.

Doubt the PFL would have a problem with that. Maybe they would insist that Presbyterian be ineligible for the title in year one.

[ccd494]

Doubt the PFL would have a problem with that. Maybe they would insist that Presbyterian be ineligible for the title in year one.

Right. Happened with San Diego one year, right? I also don't think Presbyterian's playoff eligibility would travel much beyond the theoretical.

[Pinnum]

No athlete will lose their scholarship. They will just stop issuing new scholarships to incoming recruits. They want a smooth transition and not to upset their stakeholders (any more than they must).

I wouldn't be shocked if they played a hybrid season before playing a full PFL season. But I am sure the PFL would be okay with them coming in to the PFL schedule without their results counting in the standings because they wouldn't over power the conference.

PC is currently #213 in Sagarin ratings.

The top-4 in the Pioneer are #181 San Diego, #224 Campbell, #228 Dayton, and #230 Butler. So with losing their senior scholarship players and replacing them with non-scholarship freshmen, PC isn't likely to get any better than they are now.

This seems like a no brainer. The PFL would be a great home for PC.

[ST_Lawson]

Is there a reason they'd want to stay DI rather than drop to like DIII or something? Size-wise, I'd think that'd work better for them, but I don't know much about PC.
Do they have a really good basketball team or are awesome in another sport or something?

[woffordgrad94]

PC sucks in ALL sports. I think they should drop to D-3 in everything and forget the pioneer league.

[Pinnum]

Is there a reason they'd want to stay DI rather than drop to like DIII or something? Size-wise, I'd think that'd work better for them, but I don't know much about PC.
Do they have a really good basketball team or are awesome in another sport or something?


Guarantee games.

You can spend the same amount of money as a D2 school but bring in a lot more money by selling games to P5 schools. It also can give some exposure to a small school.

[woffordgrad94]

Guarantee games.

You can spend the same amount of money as a D2 school but bring in a lot more money by selling games to P5 schools. It also can give some exposure to a small school.
Do P5 schools play Pioneer League teams? I didn’t think they ever did.

[clenz]

PC is a school of 1,100 undergrads in a town that wouldn't be in the top 30 largest towns in the state of freaking Iowa.

PC is smaller than all 12 D3s in the state of Iowa - in towns about the same size of all the D3s in the state of Iowa with half of the academic faculty that the D3s in Iowa have. I'm getting my M.S. at a private school that just moved from D3 to NAIA. It has 1,100 full time students and I couldn't imagine that place being D1. This place is on a 40 acre campus in the heart of the second largest metro in the state (260+K people).

Surely that isn't a sustainable way to run a university in South Carolina where there are 900 other college/university settings.

[clenz]

Do P5 schools play Pioneer League teams? I didn’t think they ever did.
Nope.

To count as a FBS win you have to be a full scholarship FCS team.

So you wouldn't get the 1 game of 500-600K per year, but you aren't aren't paying 63 eqivilent scholarships per year.

PC tuition is $50,886. 63 of those is 3.2 million dollars.

Is 1 game at 600K worth 3.2 million in football scholarships - plus Title IX equivalencies.

[Model Citizen]

So with losing their senior scholarship players and replacing them with non-scholarship freshmen, PC isn't likely to get any better than they are now.


This is PC's ninth year in the Big South. During that time they've had one winning season. They have yet to post a winning record in the conference. It could be that their losing reputation is damaging recruiting. With a conference move, maybe they can get better than they are now.

That's a theory I could extend to some other FCS conference bottom feeders as well. Private schools, especially...

[Model Citizen]

Nope.

To count as a FBS win you have to be a full scholarship FCS team.

Nonetheless, San Diego State played San Diego. The game was a last minute replacement...would have happened even if SDSU was P5.

[ST_Lawson]

Guarantee games.

You can spend the same amount of money as a D2 school but bring in a lot more money by selling games to P5 schools. It also can give some exposure to a small school.

Hmm...ok. You'd think going D3 they would save enough to make it work without FBS game money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dbackjon]

Do P5 schools play Pioneer League teams? I didn’t think they ever did.

No. FCS games don't count for bowl eligbility unless the FCS school offers 90% of the max.

[clenz]

Nonetheless, San Diego State played San Diego. The game was a last minute replacement...would have happened even if SDSU was P5.So 1 last minute replacement game?

Good.

Let's let the PFL cling to a last minute replacement once a decade game for their money game

[Pinnum]

Do P5 schools play Pioneer League teams? I didn’t think they ever did.

No. Football will be, for all practical purposes, D3. Football will only get guarantees from FCS schools now.

But the school will be D1 and can still schedule guarantees in other sports. This means they will bring in a few hundred thousand for men's basketball they wouldn't get if they dropped divisions and tens of thousands from the other sports combined.

[Reign of Terrier]

Do you think PC's calculus here would change if they were successful?

[clenz]

No. FCS games don't count for bowl eligbility unless the FCS school offers 90% of the max.
Which is 56.7

Thus, PC needs to spend 2.88m per in football scholarships year to get one 600K payday per year

[clenz]

Do you think PC's calculus here would change if they were successful?
If they were successful would they have to consider dropping divisions or scholarships?

[Reign of Terrier]

they sometimes, perhaps usually schedule 2 FBS games a year.

I think it's also worth mentioning that scholarships aren't exactly cash payments; it's not like they get that money out of the endowment or some booster writes a check. If anything the tuition and fees are probably higher across the board with the school, which prevents other investments, so it's a different kind of deficit.

[Pinnum]

Hmm...ok. You'd think going D3 they would save enough to make it work without FBS game money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The amount spent on athletics from the top D3/D2 schools and the bottom D1 schools is not significant. The revenue is very different.

Really, they are giving up post season opportunities for a balanced budget by keeping all their sports D1.

[Model Citizen]

Which is 56.7

Thus, PC needs to spend 2.88m per in football scholarships year to get one 600K payday per year


Yep. That's why they're talking PFL.

[Pinnum]

Which is 56.7

Thus, PC needs to spend 2.88m per in football scholarships year to get one 600K payday per year

For comparison, PFL teams spend about $1MM a year on football and that includes flying to San Diego.

[Reign of Terrier]

If they were successful would they have to consider dropping divisions or scholarships?

not necessarily. I'd have to see how success effects their bottom line compared to this dumpster fire baseline. The reason I ask is because Wofford is pretty successful and similar size (1600 undergrads, give our take 75). We have our own infrastructure and things are working good, but I wonder how many years of mediocrity it would take for us to make this sort of decision.

I think this is the smart move for PC long-term. I don't see how any alumnus could be enthusiastic about football right now. They briefly had some glory days in D2, but if they want long-term engagement they need to have some success to build on for boosters, attendance and all of that other stuff that keeps a program going.

[dgtw]

I understand giving them free room and board along with free food and textbooks isn't cheap. But is the tuition really a cost? Is letting people go to class for free a financial burden for the school? If the AD is writing a check to the university, is that any different from me taking money out of my wallet and putting it in my front pocket?

[Reign of Terrier]

I understand giving them free room and board along with free food and textbooks isn't cheap. But is the tuition really a cost? Is letting people go to class for free a financial burden for the school? If the AD is writing a check to the university, is that any different from me taking money out of my wallet and putting it in my front pocket?

Exactly. But I think it's more of a burden for smaller schools than bigger schools (even if tuition is more expensive) because you have a smaller pool to divert resources from

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Presby/Davidson would be an instant rivalry

More seriously, this just opens the door for Stetson or Jacksonville to join the Big South... and will continue to put pressure on FGCU to sponsor a football team. The Big South/Pioneer/A-Sun have that deal where they are basically a revolving door - people just never thought that it might be used to go the other direction.

[Pinnum]

I understand giving them free room and board along with free food and textbooks isn't cheap. But is the tuition really a cost? Is letting people go to class for free a financial burden for the school? If the AD is writing a check to the university, is that any different from me taking money out of my wallet and putting it in my front pocket?

What is the replacement value for that seat and would they be able to fill that seat if they weren't giving it away for free? If they could find someone to pay, then there is an actual cost they are encoring for giving the seat away for free.

[clenz]

I understand giving them free room and board along with free food and textbooks isn't cheap. But is the tuition really a cost? Is letting people go to class for free a financial burden for the school? If the AD is writing a check to the university, is that any different from me taking money out of my wallet and putting it in my front pocket?
It depends on how your school charges athletic scholarships.

This is something UNI's atheltic department fights - and the source of the "CUT UNI FUNDING BECAUSE THEY NEED TO BORROW STATE MONEY" from the state and Hawkeye fans. Many schools - specifically private schools - DO NOT charge the athletic department for athletic scholarships. They are treated as a university scholarship and there is almost no way to separate them in the budget as they are a university expense - like every single other scholarship at the school.

UNI charges the athletic department for scholarships. Thus, UNI's athletic department has to pay UNI for the athletic scholarships. This is where the general fund money that is used comes from - and the source of all the angst. UNI uses about 4 million a year in "general fund" fund from the state. That money isn't used for facilities or salary. It's used for scholarships. So UNI's athletic department is borrowing money - which is already earmarked for UNI - to pay our academic side of things with money borrowed from UNI. Sound stupid? Because it is. If UNI would wrap athletic scholarships into the normal financial aid fund that they do for every other scholarship UNI wouldn't use any general fund money and very...very...little of our budget would be supplemented from the school, students and general fund.

To get an idea of what UNI does - think of your schools accounting program. Let's say your accounting program gives out 20 scholarships per year to accounting majors. Now, rather than the university going "Yeah, that is our schools money" they go "Yeah, that needs to come from the accounting department budget and you need to pay the university back for that". That would never happen. Ever.

As I mentioned, I go to a small private school. 2 weeks ago we got the required athletics disclosure they have to send out. The university spends 3.6m on athletics and brings in 3.9m. How can a NAIA school of 1,100 bring in that money? The university doesn't charge the athletic department for athletic scholarships. They are treated as university scholarships.

[clenz]

What is the replacement value for that seat and would they be able to fill that seat if they weren't giving it away for free? If they could find someone to pay, then there is an actual cost they are encoring for giving the seat away for free.
You're also assuming there would be a replacement.

What's interesting is that often times when athletics are dropped - specifically football - an overall enrollment drop is as well.

Athletic scholarships bring students in that wouldn't normally be brought in, as well as being a fantastic marketing tool.

[downbythebeach]

Interestingly I had just heard that Monmouth wants back in the NEC as an affiliate.

[ccd494]

P5/FBS schools aren't the only ones who pay guarantees.

Mississippi Valley State and Robert Morris didn't fly to Fargo to play for free.

I think being in the Pioneer makes more sense for PC than the Big South. Whether the Pioneer makes more sense than, say, the ODAC? I don't know.

[Pinnum]

You're also assuming there would be a replacement.

What's interesting is that often times when athletics are dropped - specifically football - an overall enrollment drop is as well.

Athletic scholarships bring students in that wouldn't normally be brought in, as well as being a fantastic marketing tool.


Who is dropping football?

[Pinnum]

With football scholarships and T9 balancers, PC is giving about 120 scholarships. That is about 10% of their student body.

So they could eliminate these scholarships completely and as long as there isn't a 10% drop in enrollment, they are better off. So, even if there was a 8% enrollment drop, they could be better off. But that isn't going to happen because they can sell recruits on D1 football and people will pay money to play D1 football.

They can easily restructure their non-athlete scholarships to move these athletic equivalencies over to the general scholarship fund and actually end up with better sports overall because they can now attract baseball, soccer, and every kind of student with a lower cost of attendance.

This is going to happen. It makes way too much sense for them not to do it.

[SCPALADIN]

Is there a reason they'd want to stay DI rather than drop to like DIII or something? Size-wise, I'd think that'd work better for them, but I don't know much about PC.
Do they have a really good basketball team or are awesome in another sport or something?

There's really only one DIII conference in the Southeast (SAA). They already have 9 football members...might not be feasible. Maybe the ODAC would work...but that's a LOT of travelling north. The Pioneer seems to make perfect sense.

[Go...gate]

Not sure what you meant by this? An athletic scholarship is renewable each year, so if they drop to non-scholarship football the players would be covered for the remainder of the year but would not be on scholarship the next year. I don't think the school can claim "non-scholarship" if they still give athletic scholarships to the guys that are still there. Although this is pretty unusual and obscure, so maybe there are some specific rules. I would actually think the NCAA would waive the transfer and sit rules for players who have no choice but to transfer, but again I'd have to go look for the actual rules and guidelines and that probably is buried somewhere on the site.

The argument could be made that the athletic scholarship is a promise of both admission and access to a university education that was reasonably relied upon by the student-athlete to their detriment based upon an expectation that the school would continue football. I understand that Boston University, Northeastern and Hofstra handled a number of cases like this when they shut down their football programs.

[ST_Lawson]

There's really only one DIII conference in the Southeast (SAA). They already have 9 football members...might not be feasible. Maybe the ODAC would work...but that's a LOT of travelling north. The Pioneer seems to make perfect sense.

I would think that the Pioneer would have the most traveling of just about any of the potential options, and the issue of where the rest of their sports would go (or would they take their other sports to the ASun Conference?).

Also, what about the USA South Conference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_South_Athletic_Conference
They don't have any schools actually in SC, but they've got a bunch of schools in NC, GA, a couple in VA and one each in TN, KY, and AL.
Here's a map of the schools that I threw together. Blue pins are non-football schools, orange pins are football-playing schools, and the green pin is Presbyterian College.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1T0XTKqkqDuH065ONtkizqwDEou8&usp=sharing
If we're going with 5 hour drive as a "bus trip" and longer being a flight, then it looks like all the schools except maybe Huntingdon and Mary Baldwin (Berea would be "borderline") would be bus trips.

That's gotta be cheaper than flying your team to San Diego, Drake, Butler, Marist, etc.

[Model Citizen]

They are staying in D-I, and probably staying in the Big South for all sports except football. Campbell was in that situation for years, with no problem.

[Go...gate]

This is PC's ninth year in the Big South. During that time they've had one winning season. They have yet to post a winning record in the conference. It could be that their losing reputation is damaging recruiting. With a conference move, maybe they can get better than they are now.

That's a theory I could extend to some other FCS conference bottom feeders as well. Private schools, especially...

Got anybody in mind?

[clenz]

Got anybody in mind?
Yeah...

wHoya thinkin bout?

[Model Citizen]

Got anybody in mind?

Of course I do. But I'll let you commit the hijacking. xsmiley_wix

[WCU-Cats!]

can't say I am really too surprised, very small school to endure the type of losing they have since moving to fcs and still maintain support

[seelarke]

Seems like football could get reshuffled to Pioneer, but maybe not. There's been talk for a while, but I think whats frustrated most PC alumni is other than long emails stating that "strategic planning is happening" there's been no talk of when they'll announce it. Then some stuff got leaked about Pioneer or dropping to D3 and a vote happening soon. No one truly knows if a vote is taking place on moving out of BSC to Pioneer. From what I gather wrestling is probably going to become a sport at PC which makes me think D3 isn't happening. Unless PC is about to announce a huge donation to athletics and the school I don't see how we can add wrestling scholarships when the fuss is about football scholarships.

Guess we won't really find out until Christmas time when the study is complete.

[Model Citizen]

While Presbyterian's recruiters twist in the wind, it may be comforting to know that the answer to the scholarship question has been predetermined.

No one likes predestination jokes anymore?

[Pinnum]

No one likes predestination jokes anymore?

I enjoyed it.

[dbackjon]

No one likes predestination jokes anymore?

Some of us have the grace to not respond :)

[TheKingpin28]

No one likes predestination jokes anymore?

Am I allowed to understand Calvinism?

[Laker]

Am I allowed to understand Calvinism?

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.qfkRHIPPElgbfT1nR6LDTAEsDh&pid=15.1

[aceinthehole]

Interestingly I had just heard that Monmouth wants back in the NEC as an affiliate.
They never wanted to leave for the Big South - the remaining NEC members voted against their request for affiliate membership.

It will be interesting if the hard feelings have gone away from their departure or if the NEC members now see value in having MU in the league for football.

Personally, if I were advising the CCSU President or AD, I would vote in favor of letting them in for a significant annual fee. IMO, the NEC needs the extra league game to help our SOS, thereby reducing the need to get a D-II home game.

Wonder what the NEC Presidents think about MU football now. Is there a chance they come back when their Big South contract expires?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If Monmouth wants to go to the NEC, how are they going to handle the fact that they have 63 scholarships spread around their team? Or is the NEC football scholarship limit a fiction at this point?

[woffordgrad94]

A thought occurred to me today. If it were not for a certain Mr. Richardson, this could easily be Wofford. We’re not much bigger than PC, and Spartanburg, SC ain’t exactly the most popular destination around. We are most fortunate, and I shouldn’t forget that when I want to bitch about the sports programs.

[aceinthehole]

If Monmouth wants to go to the NEC, how are they going to handle the fact that they have 63 scholarships spread around their team? Or is the NEC football scholarship limit a fiction at this point?

First, I'm not sure we know that Monmouth is granting 63 schollys per year.

Second, yes MU would have to abide by NEC financial aid rules if they were to be approved ofr assoicate membership.

Third, NEC rules permit up to 45 scholarships, plus an additional 18 grants-in-aid, providing the opportunity for all programs to be "bowl counter" for FBS opponents, if they chose to do so.

Therefore, I see no reason MU wouldn't agree to the NEC aid policy that would Grant them AQ access and allow them to continue scheduling FBS games. The bigest benefit is that W. Long Branch is in the middle of the NEC geographic footprint.

[ETSUfan1]

If Presby drops to non-scholarship, I hope they crossed all the t's and dotted the i's. ETSU just assumed the SoCon would keep them for all other sports when they dropped football, and that was not the case. The Big South is cluttered with basketball schools. Not sure they'd really want to keep them if they didn't sponsor football in the league.

[NY Crusader 2010]

A thought occurred to me today. If it were not for a certain Mr. Richardson, this could easily be Wofford. We’re not much bigger than PC, and Spartanburg, SC ain’t exactly the most popular destination around. We are most fortunate, and I shouldn’t forget that when I want to bitch about the sports programs.

Did Wofford and Presbyterian come out of the same D-II conference?

[Go...gate]

Presbyterian should make a phone call to Center Valley, PA. The Patriot League could use an eighth football member, and we have at least a couple of members (if not more) who offer fewer than the maximum of 60 scholarships permitted by the conference.

[Reign of Terrier]

Did Wofford and Presbyterian come out of the same D-II conference?

I'm pretty sure yes. Back in the day, Wofford's big rivals were PC and maybe Newberry (that was before my time).

[SCPALADIN]

I'm pretty sure yes. Back in the day, Wofford's big rivals were PC and maybe Newberry (that was before my time).

Wofford was a DII Independent. Presbyterian was in the SAC.

[FUBeAR]

I'm pretty sure yes. Back in the day, Wofford's big rivals were PC and maybe Newberry (that was before my time).

Not before my time. I'm OLD! Yep - unless I'm 'misremembering,' they were all 3 in the NAIA. PC & Newberry were in the SAC8. And Woffy was independent....

Ooooh...and in 'checking my work,' wikipedia tells us...

"The South Carolina Little Three (known as the South Carolina Little Four from 1946 to 1951) was an intercollegiate athletic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_athletics) conference that existed from 1946 to 1964. The conference's three main members, Newberry College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newberry_College), Presbyterian College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_College), and Wofford College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wofford_College), were located in the state of South Carolina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Carolina)."

...and further research suggests that Erskine was the 4th that made them the Little Four. But...the Due West, SC located Flying Fleet dropped Football in 1952.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Presbyterian should make a phone call to Center Valley, PA. The Patriot League could use an eighth football member, and we have at least a couple of members (if not more) who offer fewer than the maximum of 60 scholarships permitted by the conference.

Interesting, but they'd have to fly to all their conference games.

[dgtw]

No one likes predestination jokes anymore?

That one flew right past me. Well played, good sir.


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[Go...gate]

Interesting, but they'd have to fly to all their conference games.

Only three such flights per year, and they could bus to Georgetown.

[walliver]

Currently PC gets March Madness money. If they move to D2 or D3, that check goes away.

Moving football to the PFL could be profitable, as many players are willing to pay so they can claim to play D-I football.


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[FUBeAR]

many players are willing to pay so they can claim to play D-I football.

Seems like a bit of a broad-brush cynical comment that isn't really very fair.

There are a lot of different reasons why many kids choose to go to the schools and to play in the PFL. I've known kids who chose to play at Stetson, Jacksonville, Davidson, and, of course, Mercer (during the 2 years they were recruiting kids for PFL Football). I would say "Playing D1 Football" is actually pretty far down the list of why most of those kids chose their schools.

[van]

Only three such flights per year, and they could bus to Georgetown.

Yeah, but would LU, Laffy, Cross, Bucky, Rams and Gators like to fly to SC every other year?

[Model Citizen]

Hijack completed.

[dbackjon]

Hijack completed.

That is would be hijacked to a PL thread was predetermined.

[NorthChuckSouth]

They never wanted to leave for the Big South - the remaining NEC members voted against their request for affiliate membership.

It will be interesting if the hard feelings have gone away from their departure or if the NEC members now see value in having MU in the league for football.

Personally, if I were advising the CCSU President or AD, I would vote in favor of letting them in for a significant annual fee. IMO, the NEC needs the extra league game to help our SOS, thereby reducing the need to get a D-II home game.

Wonder what the NEC Presidents think about MU football now. Is there a chance they come back when their Big South contract expires?

They might want to.. according to their website:

MONMOUTH AGAINST THE BIG SOUTH

Since starting up Big South league play in 2014, Monmouth owns a 5-12 conference record.
The Hawks own a 2-1 record against Gardner-Webb, are 2-3 against Liberty and Presbyterian and are searching for their first wins over CSU and Kennesaw State.
Monmouth followed up a 1-4 first season in the Big South by going 3-3 in 2015. Last year MU was 0-5 in the Big South. MU opened 1-0 in 2017.
MU was 0-3 against members of the Big South prior to joining the league, including dropping a home and home series with Coastal Carolina and a non-conference tilt with the Flames.
With the win over Liberty, Monmouth won its Big South opener for the first time ever.

[SCPALADIN]

Hijack completed.

I'm surprised it took 9 full pages.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Interestingly I had just heard that Monmouth wants back in the NEC as an affiliate.

Where did you hear that?

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

They never wanted to leave for the Big South - the remaining NEC members voted against their request for affiliate membership.

It will be interesting if the hard feelings have gone away from their departure or if the NEC members now see value in having MU in the league for football.

Personally, if I were advising the CCSU President or AD, I would vote in favor of letting them in for a significant annual fee. IMO, the NEC needs the extra league game to help our SOS, thereby reducing the need to get a D-II home game.

Wonder what the NEC Presidents think about MU football now. Is there a chance they come back when their Big South contract expires?

We should never have left them depart. Serious lack of vision there by the NEC. We need the conference games.

[dgtw]

Seems like football could get reshuffled to Pioneer, but maybe not. There's been talk for a while, but I think whats frustrated most PC alumni is other than long emails stating that "strategic planning is happening" there's been no talk of when they'll announce it. Then some stuff got leaked about Pioneer or dropping to D3 and a vote happening soon. No one truly knows if a vote is taking place on moving out of BSC to Pioneer. From what I gather wrestling is probably going to become a sport at PC which makes me think D3 isn't happening. Unless PC is about to announce a huge donation to athletics and the school I don't see how we can add wrestling scholarships when the fuss is about football scholarships.

Guess we won't really find out until Christmas time when the study is complete.

Wrestling only allows 9.9 scholarships, so that cuts out over 50 free rides.

There is an expense in adding a new sport. But it can be paid for with guys who pay to go to school there and wrestle D1. It also helps in Title IX balance.

I think moving to the Pioneer is a good move. They have a much better chance of competing there than in the Big South.


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[aceinthehole]

We should never have left them depart. Serious lack of vision there by the NEC. We need the conference games.

That was my feeling at the time too, but the President and ADs were very upset about how Monmouth left. Quinnipiac was a lost cause, but MU had a long history with the league and basically walked out without a warning. Also, there was some thought Wagner might be next and I don't think the remaining memebrs wanted the NEC to be the used for football, while the best basketball programs left for greener pastures.

In part, they made the decision to deny MU football membership to "protect" basketball and the rest of the league.

[dgtw]

The meeting is tomorrow. Are there any updates?


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[NorthChuckSouth]

The meeting is tomorrow. Are there any updates?


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According to their reddit page..

"I think the vote is today on the entire Strategic Plan. Seems like wrestling is for sure happening. If you google, Presbyterian College Wrestling there's already a page on the gobluehose website for it. So it seems Pioneer League is our future, but guess we just won't know. According to Fact or Rumour it isn't happening..."


Edit:

Apparently it's happening
https://www.reddit.com/r/bluehose/comments/7bwrpf/pioneer_leagueits_official/

[Go...gate]

Yeah, but would LU, Laffy, Cross, Bucky, Rams and Gators like to fly to SC every other year?

Seems to me it would be a nice road trip.

[Model Citizen]

Please forgive my ignorance of the Big South, but as I understand it, they have six members for football...with Campbell coming in and Liberty gone for the 2018 season. North Alabama does not join until 2019.

Question: if this is Presbyterian's last season in the Big South, will the Big South retain its playoff AQ for 2018?

I guess an alternative scenario would be for PC to phase out a few scholarships, compete in the Big South (or as an independent) in 2018, with no PFL membership until 2019? Can't imagine they would put off PFL membership any longer than that. All the cool kids are already here.

[walliver]

I'm interested in what PC coaches are saying on the recruiting trail. Modern high schools players are social media savvy and most have heard the rumor. If not, competing recruiters likely have said something.
Some rumors are so toxic, that institutions need to flat out deny them. The fact that the Hose have not denied these rumors while in the heat of recruiting season suggests the rumor is true.
I would suspect PC plays at least one more year in the Big South. I doubt they want to piss of the Big South and have to move to the A-Sun.

[Model Citizen]

I would suspect PC plays at least one more year in the Big South. I doubt they want to piss of the Big South and have to move to the A-Sun.

Good point.

[clenz]

Please forgive my ignorance of the Big South, but as I understand it, they have six members for football...with Campbell coming in and Liberty gone for the 2018 season. North Alabama does not join until 2019.

Question: if this is Presbyterian's last season in the Big South, will the Big South retain its playoff AQ for 2018?

I guess an alternative scenario would be for PC to phase out a few scholarships, compete in the Big South (or as an independent) in 2018, with no PFL membership until 2019? Can't imagine they would put off PFL membership any longer than that. All the cool kids are already here.
Yes. I believe you get a year or two "grace" period to get back to 6.

I couldn't quote the rule but I remember this being discussed on Big South threads before when Liberty always threatening to leave and then when CCU announced they were leaving.

[Reign of Terrier]

I heard from a guy who heard from a guy who said that PC doesn't think they can afford the travel cost of the pioneer

[aceinthehole]

I heard from a guy who heard from a guy who said that PC doesn't think they can afford the travel cost of the pioneer

Isn’t travel costs in the Pioneer “pooled” or shared in some way?

I remember reading that Marist doesn’t spend anywhere nearer the travel costs that Limited schollys/grants would cost in the NEC.

[Model Citizen]

A trip to San Diego would cost less than one full ride scholarship at PC. That's with a side trip to Coronado after the game.

[clenz]

I heard from a guy who heard from a guy who said that PC doesn't think they can afford the travel cost of the pioneer
Travel on the season, even using worst case scenario H/A rotation would have to be significantly cheaper than any scholarship options I'd think?

Longest trips would be San Deigo, Drake, Bulter and Valpo in the same season. I haven't looked but I would guess the PFL tries to split travel up pretty even for distance. Sure, that isn't cheap to fly those 4 games. Earlier in this thread I guess there is currently 2.88m being spent on scholarships. I say this as someone who has never been on a plane in my 29 years and 10 months of life (yes, true statement), it can't cost 3 million to fly to those 4 games.

I had also thought I'd heard about the pooling costs that aceinthehole mentioned.

If that's the route they are taking to stay scholarship football that's....weird.
If that's how deep the budget issues are then I can't see them keeping football at all.

[walliver]

As a private school, it is hard to find objective figures concerning PC's budget, but the general consensus seems to be that there are issues. Undergraduate enrollment is at or below 1000 and is not growing. Apparently the pharmacy school is profitable and they are starting a physician's assistant program.

They poured a lot of money into athletics and facilities, and fully-funded football very quickly. On the other hand, Wofford already had a couple of SoCon championships and a trip to the semis before getting up to 63 scholarships and equivalencies. They built a new football stadium (needed), as well as other athletic facilities. I personally felt they spent too much money too quickly without enough outside support.

The Blue Hose were our biggest rivals when I was in school (We were in the NAIA and dropped FU when they refuse to play football home-and-home, and hadn't beaten the Citadel in 20 years). We moved on and I doubt our current students think much of the old rivalry.

My daughter went through the college hunting deal last year and ran into a very large number of students, mostly out of state, who made Upstate SC trips, almost always to Furman, Wofford, and Clemson (usually all three). Very few of these students visited PC.

[dgtw]

I doubt they will be talking away any scholarships from those that have them, just wait for time to do its job to get to zero.

So even after the seniors leave (along with any other transfers) they’ll still have a decent number of scholarships to at least muddle through one more Big South season. Then they can move in 2019 when UNA joins.

They’d still have players on scholarship then, but maybe the PFL can let them in but not be eligible until all the freeloaders are gone.


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[walliver]

I doubt they will be talking away any scholarships from those that have them, just wait for time to do its job to get to zero.

So even after the seniors leave (along with any other transfers) they’ll still have a decent number of scholarships to at least muddle through one more Big South season. Then they can move in 2019 when UNA joins.

They’d still have players on scholarship then, but maybe the PFL can let them in but not be eligible until all the freeloaders are gone.


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They have to maintain "counter" status if they want to keep their money games, which I believe are booked through 2019. I have read they have no money games booked past that point (but that is just message board talk).

[clenz]

They have to maintain "counter" status if they want to keep their money games, which I believe are booked through 2019. I have read they have no money games booked past that point (but that is just message board talk).

It’ll cost about 6 million dollars to maintain counter status through 2019. What are those paydays combined value? Can’t be more than 1m


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[walliver]

It’ll cost about 6 million dollars to maintain counter status through 2019. What are those paydays combined value? Can’t be more than 1m


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The accounting rules are different between public and private schools. Publics generally need to transfer money from one account to another to fund scholarships and then publish those numbers. For a FCS private school, a full ride athletic offer may actually consist of needs-based grants, academic scholarship and athletic scholarship money. It probably costs PC less than $3 Million a year for athletic scholarships, but also means future savings will be less that $3 Million a year, too.

The only way to save big money is to drop football- something that does not currently seem to be on the table.

[Reign of Terrier]

It’ll cost about 6 million dollars to maintain counter status through 2019. What are those paydays combined value? Can’t be more than 1m


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Not to mention, I imagine if they dropped those games there would be a buyout expense


The accounting rules are different between public and private schools. Publics generally need to transfer money from one account to another to fund scholarships and then publish those numbers. For a FCS private school, a full ride athletic offer may actually consist of needs-based grants, academic scholarship and athletic scholarship money. It probably costs PC less than $3 Million a year for athletic scholarships, but also means future savings will be less that $3 Million a year, too.

The only way to save big money is to drop football- something that does not currently seem to be on the table.

[clenz]

The accounting rules are different between public and private schools. Publics generally need to transfer money from one account to another to fund scholarships and then publish those numbers. For a FCS private school, a full ride athletic offer may actually consist of needs-based grants, academic scholarship and athletic scholarship money. It probably costs PC less than $3 Million a year for athletic scholarships, but also means future savings will be less that $3 Million a year, too.

The only way to save big money is to drop football- something that does not currently seem to be on the table.
To be counted as scholarship money by the NCAA and be a counter they must offer at least 56 scholarships worth of aid. That means, no matter what accounting trick they want to use, they are giving out roughly 2.88 million dollars per year in scholarship costs. I did the math earlier in this thread.

2.88 in 2018
2.88 in 2019

That's $5,760,000 in scholarship money. I rounded it to "roughly 6 million" for the purpose of that post sitting in the drive through waiting for my lunch because I forgot mine at home.

The average FCS payout is like a half million dollars.

To keep those two pay days which, on the high side, equal $1.2 in pay outs is....well, it's bad math. It's bad business. It's probably why PC is where they are today. It doesn't matter where the money comes from, it's still 2.88m coming out of "the budget".

That's still a net loss of $4,560,000 for those two years.

I suppose the counter is "They aren't taking scholarships away so they might still be a counter", but they won't be. They'll lose somewhere between 15-20 per year starting instantly. If they are at 58 this year (the minimum) they will be down to 38-45 by next year and then 20 in 2019. Maybe they can get a waiver by the NCAA but I'd imagine that wouldn't be easy.

What you said makes sense in terms of the public vs private in terms of who charges who what. It's what drives me nuts about how UNI runs their athletic department. The university bills the athletic department for it's scholarships separate than all the other aid they give out. It's so stupid. It's why out AD uses "general fund" money. The general fund money is used to pay for the scholarships. It literally goes right into the exact same spot than if they wouldn't charge the AD and would take them out of the same fund and just ear mark it as "athletic aid" just as they do "need based" and "academic". It makes UNI the target of "SHOULDN'T BE D1" news articles when it shouldn't be. All simple accounting tricks. You aren't wrong, but it's mostly semantics where it comes from.

[clenz]

Not to mention, I imagine if they dropped those games there would be a buyout expense
Right.

I'm sure we can find those contracts but the buy out for those two games is less than 5 million....probably.

[Anthony215]

I believe if Presbyterian went the non scholly route and entered the Pioneer League they would still be on the hook for all scholarships for a year but they'd probably allow those on scholarship to look elsewhere and only block their transfer if they opted for another Pioneer League school. Not sure how that move would affect their traveling budget as it gets pretty expensive having to travel from South Carolina to San Diego, NY and Ohio

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Was Presby truly competing at 63 scholarships? They probably never had 63 scholarships through the whole program. For all we know they've been competing with only need-based aid in the Big South.

[clenz]

Was Presby truly competing at 63 scholarships? They probably never had 63 scholarships through the whole program. For all we know they've been competing with only need-based aid in the Big South.
They need to be giving at least 56 equivalencies to have been getting FBS games

[Model Citizen]

No announcement yet, but here's a more direct acknowledgement of the non-scholarship rumor.

https://wellpilgrim.wordpress.com/2017/11/13/say-it-aint-so-hose/

[Model Citizen]

I suppose it's too much to ask anyone who writes under the name "WastedPilgrim" to understand that by going to the PFL, PC will not "abandon its thus far quixotic membership in the Football Championship Subdivision."

Stay away from my Thanksgiving, Pilgrim.

[SU FAN]

I know its tough for PC, good luck to them

[Model Citizen]

Please forgive my ignorance of the Big South, but as I understand it, they have six members for football...with Campbell coming in and Liberty gone for the 2018 season. North Alabama does not join until 2019.

Question: if this is Presbyterian's last season in the Big South, will the Big South retain its playoff AQ for 2018?

I guess an alternative scenario would be for PC to phase out a few scholarships, compete in the Big South (or as an independent) in 2018, with no PFL membership until 2019? Can't imagine they would put off PFL membership any longer than that. All the cool kids are already here.

Noteworthy news today: USC Upstate is moving from the Atlantic Sun to the Big South next year. Although they don't have football, this may be an important part of the realignment picture.

[Reign of Terrier]

Upstate getting football would be really interesting, especially if they went division one.

There could be a regular rivalry game between Upstate and Wofford (for those of you who don't know, Upstate is in Spartanburg, about 14 miles or so from Wofford's campus)

[seelarke]

Upstate getting football would be really interesting, especially if they went division one.

There could be a regular rivalry game between Upstate and Wofford (for those of you who don't know, Upstate is in Spartanburg, about 14 miles or so from Wofford's campus)


Would be shocking to see Upstate go the football route.

[walliver]

Upstate getting football would be really interesting, especially if they went division one.

There could be a regular rivalry game between Upstate and Wofford (for those of you who don't know, Upstate is in Spartanburg, about 14 miles or so from Wofford's campus)


We refuse to play them in basketball as it is. We had a brief series in the early 80's, and a single neutral site game 5 or 6 years ago. We only play them in non-revenue sports. Their current arena is older than the one we recently replaced and needs to be upgraded. As far as I know, football is not in any long term plan for them and likely wouldn't be successful as they are a multi-campus institution with a lot of commuter students. There are actually just 4 miles from Wofford.

I doubt their move has anything to do with the PC situation one way or another. The A-Sun is a geographic disaster. Kennesaw State was the only other member within 300 miles of Spartanburg and they were having to fly non-revenue sports teams to New Jersey and South Florida. The non-football Big South is a geographically compact conference with all teams in the Carolinas or Virginia.

[SCPALADIN]

We refuse to play them in basketball as it is. We had a brief series in the early 80's, and a single neutral site game 5 or 6 years ago. We only play them in non-revenue sports. Their current arena is older than the one we recently replaced and needs to be upgraded. As far as I know, football is not in any long term plan for them and likely wouldn't be successful as they are a multi-campus institution with a lot of commuter students. There are actually just 4 miles from Wofford.

I doubt their move has anything to do with the PC situation one way or another. The A-Sun is a geographic disaster. Kennesaw State was the only other member within 300 miles of Spartanburg and they were having to fly non-revenue sports teams to New Jersey and South Florida. The non-football Big South is a geographically compact conference with all teams in the Carolinas or Virginia.

From what I've come to understand USC Upstate has no intention of starting up football for all the reasons you identified. By joining the Big South they would start out as a scholarship based DI program. They do not have the state funds (or a millionaire coach) to pull it off.

[Reign of Terrier]

I don't think it's likely that they'd start a football program, just that it would be good for Wofford if they did in terms of community engagement, increasing attendance and hype for Wofford in the city, etc

[Laker]

Noteworthy news today: USC Upstate is moving from the Atlantic Sun to the Big South next year. Although they don't have football, this may be an important part of the realignment picture.

MC, do you have a site for this? I hadn't heard about it yet.

[Reign of Terrier]

Spartanburg herald journal is likely the best link (up first) but here's a google news link that will link you to a bunch of sources for different commentary:

https://www.google.com/search?q=USC+upstate+big+south&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjNooSuzcHXAhUEzGMKHShIBUoQ_AUICigB&biw=876&bih=479&dpr=3.13

[WestCoastAggie]

Noteworthy news today: USC Upstate is moving from the Atlantic Sun to the Big South next year. Although they don't have football, this may be an important part of the realignment picture.

Really interesting...

[WileECoyote06]

Word on the street is a MEAC school is moving to the Big South too. xcoffeex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

“A game at Florida Gulf Coast would cost $15,000,” said Chris Hawkins, USC Upstate softball head coach and associate athletics director. “A game at Presbyterian will cost gas money to Clinton and a trip to McDonald’s."

Wow. Good luck trying to recruit softball players.

[WestCoastAggie]

Any folks in the inside of the Big South know of anymore news?

[aceinthehole]

Word on the street is a MEAC school is moving to the Big South too. xcoffeex

Any chance Delaware State is interested in the NEC again?

[Reign of Terrier]

Word on the street is a MEAC school is moving to the Big South too. xcoffeex

South Carolina State?

[WestCoastAggie]

South Carolina State?

Hampton University

[Reign of Terrier]

reallllyyyyy

That's interesting

[Laker]

Hampton University




https://hbcugameday.com/2017/11/15/hampton-rumored-headed-for-big-south-conference/

[Sandlapper Spike]

Presbyterian announces its football program will transition to the Pioneer League by 2021:

http://www.golaurens.com/news/item/28209?utm_content=buffera731b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[CID1990]

Hope they don't regret this move down the road


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[kdinva]

Presbyterian announces its football program will transition to the Pioneer League by 2021:

http://www.golaurens.com/news/item/28209?utm_content=buffera731b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Hmmm. talk about a carousel recently and coming up;

2013: VMI back to the SoCon
2014: Monmouth joins
2015: CCU to move up. Kenny St. joins.
2016: Liberty to move up,
2018: Hampton joins w/Campbell
2019: U North Alabama joins
2020: Presby. moves down.....

[walliver]

Hope they don't regret this move down the road


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I doubt they will in the end. They don't have the resources to compete at FCS level, and playing in the Pioneer will let them play Davidson, Stetson, and Jacksonville (an academic move up from the Big South) and will probably only have 2 or 3 long trips per year. Their money games will be lower costs events against SoCon and other competitive teams looking for a easy D-I win. They may even be able to bring back the Bronze Derby game (although that might be too embarrassing).

Going back to the South Atlantic Conference was probably never really an option, as they would never be able to compete without lowering academic standards. Although Wofford and Elon were able to move up in academic rankings with D-I moves, this didn't work out well for PC, and much of their new initiative is involved with repairing their academic reputation.

[FUBeAR]

Hmmm. talk about a carousel recently and coming up;


2018: Hampton joins w/Mercer

?????

[kdinva]

?????


fixed.........(at least the color schemes were similar).... xdrunkyx

[FUBeAR]

fixed.........(at least the color schemes were similar).... xdrunkyx

So...(another) Typo, huh? xlolx

[dgtw]

I assume the Big South is cool with them (and Liberty) hanging around as non-football members?


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[walliver]

I assume the Big South is cool with them (and Liberty) hanging around as non-football members?


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Liberty is now an affiliate member - all sports except football.
It isn't clear if PC discussed this with the Big South, but I would assume both the Big South and Pioneer were contacted prior to the announcement. Keeping PC in the conference would keep the league at 12 teams, which is advantageous for basketball scheduling.
The Big South is primarily a basketball conference with a handful of football teams.

[kdinva]

So...(another) Typo, huh? xlolx


old age..... xflaggedx