Patriot League Recruiting/Academics/Scholarships

[carney2]

An interesting article in today's (2/9) Allentown, PA newspaper on Patriot League recruiting, Patriot League vs. Ivy League recruiting and the state of Patriot League football in general, given the rising AI.

http://www.mcall.com/sports/college/all-recruitingbrainfeb09,0,3364636.story

Oh yeah, I'm sure that someone will twist this to mean that football scholarships will solve this dilemma. I didn't read it quite that way, but "merit" aid is indeed broached in the final paragraph or two.

[andy7171]

Nice article.

And to thinnk, people didn't understand why I thought Towson didn't belong in the PL.

[Lehigh74]

I thought it was interesting to note that the article says the league has hired a consultant to study the problem.

[carney2]

I thought it was interesting to note that the article says the league has hired a consultant to study the problem.

My dentist also hired a consultant and now you can't get an appointment with less than 6 weeks notice, the prices have doubled, and the quality of service is unchanged. In general, consultants state the obvious; change the packaging, but not the product; adjust your image and PR; and empty your bank account.

[DetroitFlyer]

Let's get one thing straight first, there is now and will forever be only one Ivy League. Try as they might, the PL or PFL or any other conference will never be the Ivy League.

If being competitive in football is your school's only goal, then you let everybody in, regardless of academic ability. IF you want to maintain the academic integrity of your university, you are going to struggle a bit. Although Dayton is not a PL school, we do strive to recruit true student/athletes. We have many kids that major in pre-med, engineering, etc. and acheive high grades in doing so.... We graduate 96% of our football players according to the GSR report the NCAA publishes. AND, we do not have a roster full of "Division III caliber players!!!!!"

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/w-softbl/spec-rel/020707aab.html

Check out the number of football players that have a GPA of 3.5 or above....

It is simply the good, ole, supply and demand curve. There are more schools seeking high level student/athletes that are great football players than their are student/athletes. There are certainly FBS schools like Stanford, the Ivy League, the PL, some schools of the PFL, ( Davidson and to a slightly lesser degree Dayton ), and others, that are all going after the relatively small pot....

It would seem to me that the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Taking a kid with a 3.0 high school average and an 1100 SAT score for football should not be viewed negatively at an "elite" or "elite wannabe" school.

Like most things in life a balance is necessary. At some schools the balance is out of whack and needs to be re-centered. Ever since Title IX, football has been viewed as some kind of evil force in University communities. Some of that was earned by poor past practices, but in my opinion, there is no reason that a school cannot be successful by having a well balanced student body and a well balanced football team from a student/athlete perspective.

[UAalum72]

Ever since Title IX, football has been viewed as some kind of evil force in University communities.
There have ALWAYS been anti-athletic (not just football) views in the intellectual community, even when that community was predominantly conservative, not liberal. Title IX is just a convenient excuse that can be used when the real reason may just be the money.

[citdog]

Try adding another / to it and see how much fun it is to recruit. Cadet/Student/Athlete

[carney2]

Try adding another / to it and see how much fun it is to recruit. Cadet/Student/Athlete

I've always wondered how you guys did it. I would assume that VMI has similar problems.

[citdog]

We are doing pretty damn well the last two recruiting classes Kevin Higgins has brought some BIG and FAST kids into the S.C.C.C.!

[Fordham]

wow citdog - for whatever reason it never hit me until your post how much greater the recruiting challenges you guys have than the rest of us.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fascinating article. Even though I'm a Lehigh fan, I like coach Tavani in ways since he speaks his mind.


Things have changed. The Ivy League declines to be involved in the NCAA Division I Football Championship Subdivision playoffs. It also wants two home games for one road trip when scheduling Patriot League teams.

''That is their arrogance,'' Tavani said. ''We need a hook, something we can build on that will separate us from them.''

...

''You either have to go merit aid and cut down on the size of the squads, or you have to lower your standards, or your Step 3 is keep it the same and watch the level of play diminish... There are no other answers. I've said that privately many times and I don't mind saying it in public.''

Can't get much more upfront than that.

What is touched upon, but not brought up in enough detail IMO, is the fact that the AI floor for Patriot schools has now become higher than the Ivies. Of Tavani's three options for the Patriot League going forward, you could argue that the Ivy League has already gone through this process as well. For years the Ivies were content to see 3) their level of play diminish... but more and more they are choosing 2) lowering their standards, and the result is more Ivy alumni ending up in NFL camps and the Ivies are now, dramatically, fielding better football teams than us. You can say Lafayette and Lehigh lost to Princeton, Harvard and Yale, but where it's really telling was the Fordham/Columbia game which I saw last year. The difference in talent was striking.

The writer also doesn't mention the new pressures of the NEC (fielding partial-scholarship teams, especially title contenders Albany and Monmouth) and resurgent FBS programs (Rutgers and UConn have been raiding places where Lehigh and Lafayette have gotten talent in the past). Tavani, based on this article, feels the squeeze, and I can see it too.

The fact that a consultant has been hired is actually a good thing. It shows that the PL isn't simply willing to let their teams twist in the wind. They want successful football programs that can make a run at the championship. FCS is important to them.

What's the best thing to do? That's worth a blog posting all by itself.

[Fordham]

gotta love Tavani.

[citdog]

wow citdog - for whatever reason it never hit me until your post how much greater the recruiting challenges you guys have than the rest of us.


That and playing in the Southern Conference!

[carney2]

In comparing the Patriot League vs. the Ivy League you have to take size into account. As shown below, the Ivy League institutions are, on the whole, larger than the schools in the Patriot League. If the Ivies choose to drop the floor on their AI for athletes in specific sports, as both the article and many posts on this board indicate has happened, it has considerably less impact on the overall academic index of the institution than for the smaller Patriot League schools. Here are the average number of full-time undergraduates (male and female) for both conferences:

Ivy = 6,920
(If you drop the two mega institutions [Cornell and Penn] from the calculation, the average is still 5,302)

Patriot = 3,925

Obviously, a football program numbering between 90 and 105 has a greater impact on the averages at Patriot League schools than at Ivy institutions.

[ngineer]

An interesting article in today's (2/9) Allentown, PA newspaper on Patriot League recruiting, Patriot League vs. Ivy League recruiting and the state of Patriot League football in general, given the rising AI.

http://www.mcall.com/sports/college/all-recruitingbrainfeb09,0,3364636.story

Oh yeah, I'm sure that someone will twist this to mean that football scholarships will solve this dilemma. I didn't read it quite that way, but "merit" aid is indeed broached in the final paragraph or two.

I commented on this in the other thread. I think Tavani was on the mark--we now have a higher academic profile than the Ivy, hence we have to recruit nationally, now as the pool is getting shallower. Still, the Ivy rep plays a big role, and therefore, the only way to even the playing field is to go to scholarships. As has been proven at Lehigh with wrestling, the academic profile of the team has gone up significantly with the advent of scholarships.

[letsgopards04]

citdog, I think you guys just about as tough as possible. You have to find smart athletes who are willing to live the disciplined military lifestyle which for a lot of these superstars playing D 1A football is not how they want to spend at least 3 years of college. Props!

[letsgopards04]

I think going national is the only way we will survive. I thinking landing this kid from Kansas after 10 days of recruiting speaks volumes to the program that Frank has revived here at Lafayette.

[Go...gate]

I can envision a scenario where HC leaves the PL and joins the MAAC for all sports in the event FB goes to scholarships. Don't know what to say about Georgetown.

Also troubled by Ivy's insistence on two-for-one. Princeton, for example, barely draws over 5,000 for ANY game except Penn, Harvard and Yale (forget the announced attendance figures, which are "tix sold") so there is no longer a $$ advantage to Ivy schools in having the game at an Ivy stadium.

[ngineer]

I can envision a scenario where HC leaves the PL and joins the MAAC for all sports in the event FB goes to scholarships. Don't know what to say about Georgetown.

Also troubled by Ivy's insistence on two-for-one. Princeton, for example, barely draws over 5,000 for ANY game except Penn, Harvard and Yale (forget the announced attendance figures, which are "tix sold") so there is no longer a $$ advantage to Ivy schools in having the game at an Ivy stadium.

I question the 2 for 1 games. We have Yale two years in a row on the road, but have Harvard the same two years at home. Princeton has been alternating back and forth as long as I can remember.

[carney2]

I question the 2 for 1 games. We have Yale two years in a row on the road, but have Harvard the same two years at home. Princeton has been alternating back and forth as long as I can remember.

Just a thought, but the current schedules were agreed to a few years ago and possibly under a different set of rules with different "demands." Frank may have been referring to "if you want to talk to us TODAY about scheduling" demands. I know that he is not happy with the current schedule (thru 2011 or some such) that was put together by the former AD, so that goes back a little way.

[cosmo here]

Just a thought, but the current schedules were agreed to a few years ago and possibly under a different set of rules with different "demands." Frank may have been referring to "if you want to talk to us TODAY about scheduling" demands. I know that he is not happy with the current schedule (thru 2011 or some such) that was put together by the former AD, so that goes back a little way.

well done carney xsmileyclapx :beerchug:

[Go...gate]

Bottom line is Ivy-Patriot should be home and home. We're not talking Penn State-YSU here.

[ngineer]

Just a thought, but the current schedules were agreed to a few years ago and possibly under a different set of rules with different "demands." Frank may have been referring to "if you want to talk to us TODAY about scheduling" demands. I know that he is not happy with the current schedule (thru 2011 or some such) that was put together by the former AD, so that goes back a little way.

Ah....Summer's Eve....:rolleyes: ;)

[Go...gate]

Some interesting debate on this article at the Ivy Voyforums board. They dispute the AI thing, but the Tavani argument nevertheless sounds pretty compelling.

[Keeper]

Besides the fact that academics will be forever more important
than athletics, all conferences are mindful of their competitive
stance. Not only do I see this as a money problem (compared
to the Ivy League's alumni), but also their identity is lacking.
Wouldn't the PL be better served by convincing the Army and
Navy football teams to join the schedule?? The league needs to
be more attractive than it currently is. Coach Tavani's concerns
may be real or somewhat valid, but excuses nevertheless when
one examines successes at other high-standards schools or
lower division programs. Besides the Ivy OOC's, who else do they
play?? May have to spend more to get more.:twocents:

[*****]

... The league needs to be more attractive than it currently is. Coach Tavani's concerns may be real or somewhat valid, but excuses nevertheless when one examines successes at other high-standards schools or lower division programs. Besides the Ivy OOC's, who else do they play??...Well it's not like the PL hasn't had success. We've had pretty indepth discussions of PL OOC before and they play east coast stuff mostly, Ivy, now-CAA, NEC, etc. They have beaten the now-CAA champ in the playoffs this century more than once and they have made the D-I champ game, and they have played tough mostly in every playoff game. :twocents:

[Keeper]

Agreed, that Colgate Lafayette Lehigh were good recently but not now.
Maybe to get the better athlete what about a more attractive
regular season schedule? Colonial, Southern, even Big South teams
have payday games vs FBS, why not PL?

[*****]

Agreed, that Colgate Lafayette Lehigh were good recently but not now.
Maybe to get the better athlete what about a more attractive
regular season schedule? Colonial, Southern, even Big South teams
have payday games vs FBS, why not PL?Don't forget Fordham. PL is looking at their standing :hurray: but they are still need-based so they are not the same as those you mentioned. Change is constant so we'll see. They already play now-CAA and Big South. SoCon is next maybe and FBS?

[DFW HOYA]

I question the 2 for 1 games. We have Yale two years in a row on the road, but have Harvard the same two years at home. Princeton has been alternating back and forth as long as I can remember.

Yale signed consecutive 2 for 1 games with Georgetown through 2014.

[DFW HOYA]

I question the 2 for 1 games. We have Yale two years in a row on the road, but have Harvard the same two years at home. Princeton has been alternating back and forth as long as I can remember.

Yale signed a 3 for 1 series with Georgetown. I have no problem with that--who else is looking to play in DC these days?

[Franks Tanks]

Besides the fact that academics will be forever more important
than athletics, all conferences are mindful of their competitive
stance. Not only do I see this as a money problem (compared
to the Ivy League's alumni), but also their identity is lacking.
Wouldn't the PL be better served by convincing the Army and
Navy football teams to join the schedule?? The league needs to
be more attractive than it currently is. Coach Tavani's concerns
may be real or somewhat valid, but excuses nevertheless when
one examines successes at other high-standards schools or
lower division programs. Besides the Ivy OOC's, who else do they
play?? May have to spend more to get more.:twocents:

Ya our AD's never thought it would be nice to play Army and Navy..please. THEY wont play us or any other patriot teams recently. Lafayette played Army pretty much every year from the early 80's until 1997, and Navy once or twice. They wont play us anymore. I know Lehigh has tried ad nausuem to get agame with either. Holy Cross bet Army in 2002 and since them it seems they wont even look at us, they would rather play VMI.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ya our AD's never thought it would be nice to play Army and Navy..please. THEY wont play us or any other patriot teams recently. Lafayette played Army pretty much every year from the early 80's until 1997, and Navy once or twice. They wont play us anymore. I know Lehigh has tried ad nausuem to get agame with either. Holy Cross bet Army in 2002 and since them it seems they wont even look at us, they would rather play VMI.

I can vouch for this. Recently, Army chose to play Yale instead of one of their Patriot League brethren. Personally, I think their big issue is one of "manliness" - that playing Patriot League schools would open up a debate they'd rather not have, namely why aren't they playing in the Patriot League. Navy and Army prefer to cling to the fantasy that they are big-time programs that can compete for national championships, and by scheduling Yale they will finally be able to close the book on the 1923 National Championship debate. :rolleyes:

I agree that it makes more sense for Army and Navy to play PL ball. The biggest obstacle - an insurmountable one, in fact - in the way of that possibility is arrogance. :twocents:

[carney2]

I can vouch for this. Recently, Army chose to play Yale instead of one of their Patriot League brethren. Personally, I think their big issue is one of "manliness" - that playing Patriot League schools would open up a debate they'd rather not have, namely why aren't they playing in the Patriot League. Navy and Army prefer to cling to the fantasy that they are big-time programs that can compete for national championships, and by scheduling Yale they will finally be able to close the book on the 1923 National Championship debate. :rolleyes:

I agree that it makes more sense for Army and Navy to play PL ball. The biggest obstacle - an insurmountable one, in fact - in the way of that possibility is arrogance. :twocents:

Rehashing old news, but I was at a Lafayette preseason gathering last year when this question came up. Frank Tavani, the Lafayette head coach, tried to handle it with humor, but you could tell that he was serious and a bit miffed when He said that "Army will give a pay day to someone like VMI, but ignores the members of their own conference."

[Pards Rule]

gotta love Tavani.

I did from day one!

[DFW HOYA]

I agree that it makes more sense for Army and Navy to play PL ball. The biggest obstacle - an insurmountable one, in fact - in the way of that possibility is arrogance. :twocents:

No, it doesn't make sense. The PL doesn't require the academies to do so and if they chose to force the issue, Army would probably go back to the MAAC and Navy to the CAA.

There is no good financial reason why the academies should ever walk away from where they are now. The propsect of bowl games (which is a real prospect with Navy and AFA, less so for Army), the three hours of free advertising on CBS that is the Army-Navy game, and a consistent fan base of 30-35K a game to play would disappear overnight in the PL. Navy would rather lose to ND another 40 straight times on national TV if the alternative was hosting Georgetown and Bucknell before friends and family.

Frankly, as long as the USAFA participates in I-A, so will USNA and USMA. The Army brass would never get over the constant Pentagon ribbing of how their branch of the service wasn't "tough enough" to play while Air Force is.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No, it doesn't make sense. The PL doesn't require the academies to do so and if they chose to force the issue, Army would probably go back to the MAAC and Navy to the CAA.

There is no good financial reason why the academies should ever walk away from where they are now. The prospect of bowl games (which is a real prospect with Navy and AFA, less so for Army), the three hours of free advertising on CBS that is the Army-Navy game, and a consistent fan base of 30-35K a game to play would disappear overnight in the PL. Navy would rather lose to ND another 40 straight times on national TV if the alternative was hosting Georgetown and Bucknell before friends and family.

Frankly, as long as the USAFA participates in I-A, so will USNA and USMA. The Army brass would never get over the constant Pentagon ribbing of how their branch of the service wasn't "tough enough" to play while Air Force is.

You make excellent points - and you illustrate mine too. The PL lives in fear that if they push the issue in football that they will bolt altogether... even though that's where Army and Navy really belong in football (IMO). Similarly, there is a "manliness" issue should USAFA stay FBS and Army and Navy become FCS - even though, theoretically, we are all D-I schools.

It is true that financially Army, Navy and AF have the potential of getting to a bowl game - however, their chance at getting to a big-money bowl game is next to zero. Case in point, last year they went 8-4 and went to the Meinike Car Care Bowl and lost to Boston College. The three previous years were the Emerald Bowl, Houston Bowl and the Ponsettia Bowl. Are they even making money on any of these? It's certainly not "big dough". And that's the successful one - Army hasn't been to a bowl since 1996.

As for the free advertising of the Army/Navy game, I seriously doubt the interest in that game would wane if they all of a sudden became FCS. How many times did they sell out when it was an 0-10 team playing a 1-9 team? As for losing their fans, I doubt it would be such a loser for them as long as it was handled properly. The commander-in-chief's trophy doesn't have to go away, either. :twocents:

[Fordham]

No, it doesn't make sense. The PL doesn't require the academies to do so and if they chose to force the issue, Army would probably go back to the MAAC and Navy to the CAA.

There is no good financial reason why the academies should ever walk away from where they are now. The propsect of bowl games (which is a real prospect with Navy and AFA, less so for Army), the three hours of free advertising on CBS that is the Army-Navy game, and a consistent fan base of 30-35K a game to play would disappear overnight in the PL. Navy would rather lose to ND another 40 straight times on national TV if the alternative was hosting Georgetown and Bucknell before friends and family.

Frankly, as long as the USAFA participates in I-A, so will USNA and USMA. The Army brass would never get over the constant Pentagon ribbing of how their branch of the service wasn't "tough enough" to play while Air Force is.

I also agree with your post but the thing that's baffling to me is how a team like Arkansas St. makes it on their 2006 skid (and AWAY, nontheless!) and they don't have room for at least one PL team. Is it unrealistic to expect each squad to give the league one game and rotate it around so that each team gets a chance of playing one of the PL academies? It can even be an extra home game for the fans if they have an "Ark St." game or two on the schedule every year.

Here's last year's skid:

September 2 at Arkansas State L 14-6 0-1
September 9 Kent State W 17-14 1-1
September 16 at Texas A&M L 28-24 1-2
September 23 at Baylor W 27-20 2-2
September 30 Rice L 48-14 2-3
October 7 Virginia Military W 62-7 3-3
October 14 at Connecticut L 21-7 3-4
October 21 TCU L 31-17 3-5
October 28 at Tulane L 42-28 3-6
November 3 Air Force L 43-7 3-7
November 18 at No. 6 Notre Dame L 41-9 3-8 NBC
December 2 at Navy L 26-14 3-9 CBS

2007 (from what I could find):

Sept. 1 at Akron
Sept. 8 Rhode Island
Sept. 15 at Wake Forest
Sept. 22 at Boston College
Sept. 29 Temple
Oct. 6 Tulane
Oct. 13 at Central Michigan
Oct. 20 at Georgia Tech
Nov. 3 at Air Force
Nov. 9 Rutgers
Nov. 17 Tulsa
Dec. 1 Navy*
* - at Baltimore, Md.

It also begs the question of why a CAA school like URI gets on their skid and a PL one doesn't. Is it a scholarship issue?

Finally, if they did this very limited PL venture (1 school per team per year), would the Army fans really object (as long as it was limited) ... and would the Air Force, et. al, brass really object ... if they were either beating or playing a very close game v. a PL school as opposed to a blow out loss to a team like Rice?

I don't know the answer since maybe they'd prefer a blow out to a BCS school, but I would think as long as the schedule didn't have an overabundance of PL schools, they should be fine with it. That is, admittedly, written with my PL colored lenses firmly in place.

[Go...gate]

AFA doesn't seem to have a problem with us - Colgate will play at AFA in '13.

[carney2]

the thing that's baffling to me is how a team like Arkansas St. makes it on their 2006 skid (and AWAY, nontheless!)

Recruiting? "Showing the flag" from coast to coast?

[ngineer]

Good points all by LFN, DF Hoya and Carney. Reality is 90% perception. USMA and USNA are 'national' in scope and will continue to play around the country. They are 'unique' and schools from all over like to play them, plus it helps recruiting.
Further, the Generals and Admirals will never let their alma maters be anything less the 'big time'. Yes, it is an ego thing, but they have the brass to back it up.:rolleyes:
The old Ivy mystique emoting the old-time rivalries when both the academies and the Ivies vied for the mythical national titles still drives their willingness to play. They'll squeeze us in should the opportunity ever arise again that makes sense to them.

[Keeper]

ARMY & NAVY & AFA=
3 more examples of non-common sense in the FBS state.
Why should we expect anything else?
Their programs will continue to erode.
Even Coach Ross could see that.
It won't service their pride very well to suffer one
humiliation after another in the coming years, UNLESS
they are able to capture the coaching talent to do
the job. We shall see.

ARMY NAVY PATRIOTS middies cadets PATRIOTS
makes TOO much sense I guess.

[citdog]

We can't get anymore games with Army either. We beat them a couple of times in the early 90's including our 11-2 SoCon Champ season in 1992 where we had the #1 Ranking at the end of the regular season. We haven't come close to a game with them since that contract expired in 1994. They would not come to Charleston under ANY circumstances. Even though Navy had only a few years before then. I thought that with Coach Ross there that things might change and he would schedule his former team but it didn't happen.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I also agree with your post but the thing that's baffling to me is how a team like Arkansas St. makes it on their 2006 skid (and AWAY, nontheless!) and they don't have room for at least one PL team. Is it unrealistic to expect each squad to give the league one game and rotate it around so that each team gets a chance of playing one of the PL academies? It can even be an extra home game for the fans if they have an "Ark St." game or two on the schedule every year.


IIRC, Army added Arkansas State to their 2005 schedule to have another "I-A" home game. That was the excuse given when they dropped UNH to add that game. They already had UMass on the schedule that year. I'm guessing the 2006 game was the return game of the home and home contract.

BTW, UNH was re-scheduled for a 2008 game in West Point. Not trying to upset the Patriot folks, just reporting the facts.

[Fordham]

Recruiting? "Showing the flag" from coast to coast?

IIRC, Army added Arkansas State to their 2005 schedule to have another "I-A" home game. That was the excuse given when they dropped UNH to add that game. They already had UMass on the schedule that year. I'm guessing the 2006 game was the return game of the home and home contract.

BTW, UNH was re-scheduled for a 2008 game in West Point. Not trying to upset the Patriot folks, just reporting the facts.

Absolutely agree with carney AND LFN's posts about why they schedule the way they do. I think if you look at both Army & Navy's skids the past few years as well as '07 you can see a very high number of TX BCS schools in there and that clearly seems to be by design ... if not for recruiting for f-ball then at least for recruiting overall to the academy. I neither expect them to change that nor am I even arguing that they should since they have their own motivation for going there.

What I don't understand is what their motivation is for scheduling CAA schools over PL ones, which they seem to be doing fairly consistently imo. Is it due to schollies? Is it less appalling for them to lose or play close with a CAA school than a non-scholly PL one? If they have the ability to include a team or two a year from "I-AA" (or very low, non-BCS "I-A" like Temple) I just don't see why they can't make their season tune-up game be against a PL school in a home-only series instead of against someone else. Again, every schedule I've seen has a team or two that no way in he** excites the base at either school and I just don't see why they couldn't throw in just one game per school per year v. a PL team where they know they can get a home only agreement done.

[Doc QB]

Two points:

For you veteran PL fans out there, this same BS all came up in the ealry 1990's, just before the Patriot guys were invited to the post-season. When I was Lehigh in 1991-93, we got smoked by Delaware, Idaho, but the Ivies were a split. Then, they picked up speed, the SAME Allentown Morning Call writer wrote a similar article. Then, Hank Small gets fired, Higgins hired, Lehigh kills everybody for awhile, Colgate tears it up, goes to championship game, everybody is happy. This has happened before.

Second. This has been said before: Patriot League may have been conceived as, "Ivy Lite." Not Lite because of academics, but because of Ivy reputation and tradition that will never die. Was the inception of the Patriot League and its model unique? Playing with real student athletes paying there own way? NOT AT ALL. It has been done, and it is called the Ivy league. Want to be unique, GIVE THE SMART KIDS THE WHOLE DAMN SCHOLARSHIP, beat the Ivys annually, compete and WIN nationally.

Isn't it really that simple?

[Go...gate]

Two points:

For you veteran PL fans out there, this same BS all came up in the ealry 1990's, just before the Patriot guys were invited to the post-season. When I was Lehigh in 1991-93, we got smoked by Delaware, Idaho, but the Ivies were a split. Then, they picked up speed, the SAME Allentown Morning Call writer wrote a similar article. Then, Hank Small gets fired, Higgins hired, Lehigh kills everybody for awhile, Colgate tears it up, goes to championship game, everybody is happy. This has happened before.

Second. This has been said before: Patriot League may have been conceived as, "Ivy Lite." Not Lite because of academics, but because of Ivy reputation and tradition that will never die. Was the inception of the Patriot League and its model unique? Playing with real student athletes paying there own way? NOT AT ALL. It has been done, and it is called the Ivy league. Want to be unique, GIVE THE SMART KIDS THE WHOLE DAMN SCHOLARSHIP, beat the Ivys annually, compete and WIN nationally.

Isn't it really that simple?

Agree with you, Doc. This was the situation between 1992-95 in the PL, when, suddenly, Bucknell, Colgate, Lehigh and then Fordham became good programs and supposedly "too tough" for the Ivies because we PL peasants could let kids at whom the Ivy turned up their noses. The Ivies loved us in the late 80's - early '90's when they whipped us all the time.

[DFW HOYA]

Was the inception of the Patriot League and its model unique? Playing with real student athletes paying there own way? NOT AT ALL. It has been done, and it is called the Ivy league. Want to be unique, GIVE THE SMART KIDS THE WHOLE DAMN SCHOLARSHIP, beat the Ivys annually, compete and WIN nationally. Isn't it really that simple?

If the PL were all playing at the same funding level, sure.

That, of course, is not the case.

[LBPop]

ARMY & NAVY & AFA=
Their programs will continue to erode.


Speaking as just one fan of Georgetown, I would love to see this program "erode" the way Navy's has. I'm sure that is Coach Kelly's (former Ass't. Coach at the Naval Academy) plan.
At the risk of offending my enviromentalist friends out there, "Here's to Erosion" :beerchug:

[Franks Tanks]

Speaking as just one fan of Georgetown, I would love to see this program "erode" the way Navy's has. I'm sure that is Coach Kelly's (former Ass't. Coach at the Naval Academy) plan.
At the risk of offending my enviromentalist friends out there, "Here's to Erosion" :beerchug:


I'M sure he meant erode from national title contender level. Navy has a good team full of incredible, tough, hardworking, and smart kids but they could never compete week in and week out in a BCS conference. The talent on Navy or Army is really equilivant to that of the top 25 FCS teams, with maybe few higher level kids tossed in their. And how do I know? I went the Army before Lafayette and the top line talent wasnt really that much different, Army just had much more depth.

[ngineer]

I'M sure he meant erode from national title contender level. Navy has a good team full of incredible, tough, hardworking, and smart kids but they could never compete week in and week out in a BCS conference. The talent on Navy or Army is really equilivant to that of the top 25 FCS teams, with maybe few higher level kids tossed in their. And how do I know? I went the Army before Lafayette and the top line talent wasnt really that much different, Army just had much more depth.

That's typically been the difference between 'us' and lower-level I-A's of the past and the 'bigger' I-AA conferences (SoCon, A-10, etc.). Depth has usually been the boogie man. The fourth quarter being played just as fast as the first, look at how many games LC and LU in recent memory had with the likes of Delaware where we got caught in the fourth quarter and couldn't hold 'em off. One example real quick, but I think with some time you could come up with several more.

[Franks Tanks]

[/B]

That's typically been the difference between 'us' and lower-level I-A's of the past and the 'bigger' I-AA conferences (SoCon, A-10, etc.). Depth has usually been the boogie man. The fourth quarter being played just as fast as the first, look at how many games LC and LU in recent memory had with the likes of Delaware where we got caught in the fourth quarter and couldn't hold 'em off. One example real quick, but I think with some time you could come up with several more.

Great point, and believe me when I say that every Patriot league team has more than a few guys who could easily play for Army or Navy. It it really very frustrating they wont play ther teams who are in their league for every other sport.

[justballn21]

I can envision a scenario where HC leaves the PL and joins the MAAC for all sports in the event FB goes to scholarships. Don't know what to say about Georgetown.

Also troubled by Ivy's insistence on two-for-one. Princeton, for example, barely draws over 5,000 for ANY game except Penn, Harvard and Yale (forget the announced attendance figures, which are "tix sold") so there is no longer a $$ advantage to Ivy schools in having the game at an Ivy stadium.

As long as coach Gilmore is there he'll never let that happen. He's trying to make Holy Cross as competitive as possible. He would welcome scholarships, and would work to convince administration and father mcfarland of the same. Anyways, the MAAC is the last place he would look to go.

[Fordham]

I hope that your improved club is increasing interest in the program and firing up alums, justballin', which will hopefully lead to a more compelling argument for the administration to support the idea of schollies.

[carney2]

As long as coach Gilmore is there he'll never let that happen. He's trying to make Holy Cross as competitive as possible. He would welcome scholarships, and would work to convince administration and father mcfarland of the same. Anyways, the MAAC is the last place he would look to go.

Unfortunately, Gilmore does not and will not have the final say in this matter should it come to pass. My long distance/rumor mill/thru the grapevine understanding of the mood in 'saderville is that, despite being the folks who initiated this athletic arms race in the Patriot League, the powers that be are dead set against football scholarships.

[Fordham]

carney - that is exactly what I was told from those at the highest levels at Fordham re: HC.

The hope may rest in the fact that things change, particularly if the rest of the schools support the idea. It was just a short time ago that people listed you guys as the primary anti-school in the conference and now that has changed and left HC as the lone hold out (imo).

[carney2]

carney - that is exactly what I was told from those at the highest levels at Fordham re: HC.

The hope may rest in the fact that things change, particularly if the rest of the schools support the idea. It was just a short time ago that people listed you guys as the primary anti-school in the conference and now that has changed and left HC as the lone hold out (imo).

All of this highlights the fact that the League needs some new blood. Holy Cross has a history of not being a "team player." When they determined that they wanted basketball scholarships there was no patience and not much of an attempt to shape policy from the inside. It was "Give them to us or we will take our ball and play elsewhere." My understanding is that Lafayette and Bucknell for sure - and maybe one other (Lehigh?) - said "We'll miss ya, but don't let the door hit you on the way out" Army then said "If they go, we go," and the whole League was on the verge of collapse because if Army left, Navy wouldn't be far behind. Without at least another school or two to pick up the slack, we could be looking at some type of replay if/when the football scholarship issue hits the front burner. All of this is exacerbated by Georgetown because no one really knows where they stand on anything regarding football. I can't believe that I'm saying this, but Marist is looking better and better.

[LBPop]

All of this is exacerbated by Georgetown because no one really knows where they stand on anything regarding football.

The best I can tell is that the AD is very supportive of football and has visions of a big time FCS program. I sense that the school administration doesn't try to impede the program. Instead, I suspect that their attitude could be paraphrased as, "Go ahead and spend all you want on football--but first you have to raise the money yourselves".

The irony here is that I suspect that the AD would support scholarships in the PL for football. Of course, at the moment he has the least to spend. Frankly, I think everyone is simply a fan. If the team starts winning, spectators will come to watch, alumni will write more and larger checks, and the administration will want to associate themselves with the successful football team. "Nothing succeeds like success." :twocents:

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My understanding is that Lafayette and Bucknell for sure - and maybe one other (Lehigh?) - said "We'll miss ya, but don't let the door hit you on the way out" ...

I can't believe this would be true. There's a reason HC was able to hold the league "hostage" over basketball scholarships. We all know that in all sports the Patriot League is the "Big Five" with Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, HC and Bucknell, and if any one left, there would be trouble. Army and Navy (FBS football) and American (no football) are not all-sports members, while Fordham and Georgetown are associates only. If Holy Cross left, we would have been faced with a six-team league with two associates. Even if (say) Villanova joined up we'd still have been a tenuous football league with four all-sports members. Besides, we already lost Fordham in all-sports, and I think in the Patriot League's "hidden charter" item #1 is "Don't let another Fordham happen again.". :twocents:

[DFW HOYA]

All of this is exacerbated by Georgetown because no one really knows where they stand on anything regarding football.

Agreed with LBPop's sentiments above. Georgetown knows where they stand and where they're going, but the rest of the league really doesn't pay much attention.

The PL fan base and Georgetown is a lot like when Virginia Tech basketball was playing in the Big East--it's a school on the fringe of the conference footprint which most fans don't know the first thing about.

[carney2]

I can't believe this would be true. There's a reason HC was able to hold the league "hostage" over basketball scholarships. We all know that in all sports the Patriot League is the "Big Five" with Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, HC and Bucknell, and if any one left, there would be trouble. Army and Navy (FBS football) and American (no football) are not all-sports members, while Fordham and Georgetown are associates only. If Holy Cross left, we would have been faced with a six-team league with two associates. Even if (say) Villanova joined up we'd still have been a tenuous football league with four all-sports members. Besides, we already lost Fordham in all-sports, and I think in the Patriot League's "hidden charter" item #1 is "Don't let another Fordham happen again.". :twocents:

All true.

BUT

My understanding of these times has Lafayette and Bucknell firmly in the anti scholarships camp, and if that meant that someone was going to pull a "Fordham" - well, we'd rather they didn't, but...


Agreed with LBPop's sentiments above. Georgetown knows where they stand and where they're going, but the rest of the league really doesn't pay much attention.

The PL fan base and Georgetown is a lot like when Virginia Tech basketball was playing in the Big East--it's a school on the fringe of the conference footprint which most fans don't know the first thing about.

You and I continue to put on the gloves and go round after round here. I hear lip service statements such as "the AD supports football," and "we hired a high visibility coach." On the other hand, the tangible evidence screams D-II Lite or at best, MAAC. The facilities would apparently embarrass a Texas high school and the "product" does not seem to get better with age. From out here in the hinterland where I am not bombarded with the athletic department and alumni "spin," Georgetown gives no appearance of knowing where they are going with regards to football. We have the "support" and lip service referenced by you and LBPop which says to me "Let's keep a toe in the water just in case we decide to do something," and we have the evidence which indicates a MAAC program in PL clothing. Back in my old home town we had a saying that applies perfectly here:

Don't tell me; show me.

[Pard94]

I know this wouldn't be ideal given that they would never agree to join the PL as a full member due to B-Ball but I think the time is right to do a full court press (pardon the pun) on Villanova. Relatively speaking they stink right now...and that is very unusual for Nova. I think another crap season and Tally would be on the outs. I happen to know Tally was a major source of opposition to the PL in the first place. Let's start kicking them while they are down. Especially if we can convince them unofficially that within three years we will be full schollies for football. Not that Villanova is a perfect match (i'd rather see William & Mary myself), but they are pretty close.

[Pard94]

I also think we should leverage the Weiss/Johns Hopkins connection. If we could convince them to bump their football to I-AA I think they would be a PERFECT match.

[ngineer]

Actually, I think Richmond matches better with the PL in terms of profile than Villanova-although I fully agree that Villanova would bring more of a rivalry to the league, being so nearby to Lafayette and Lehigh. Certainly JHU fits the profile, but I just don't see them going 'bigger time' with their overall athletic commitment. LAX is enough for them.

[Go...gate]

Perhaps Carolyn Schlie Femovich needs to make a recruiting visit to the Main Line...at least we can find out if this is in the cards at all. 'Nova is already a PL Associate Member in Women's Lacrosse.

[DFW HOYA]

I hear lip service statements such as "the AD supports football," and "we hired a high visibility coach." On the other hand, the tangible evidence screams D-II Lite or at best, MAAC. The facilities would apparently embarrass a Texas high school and the "product" does not seem to get better with age. From out here in the hinterland where I am not bombarded with the athletic department and alumni "spin," Georgetown gives no appearance of knowing where they are going with regards to football. We have the "support" and lip service referenced by you and LBPop which says to me "Let's keep a toe in the water just in case we decide to do something," and we have the evidence which indicates a MAAC program in PL clothing. Back in my old home town we had a saying that applies perfectly here: Don't tell me; show me.

Well, what would you do?

[Go...gate]

Well, what would you do?

Just keep plugging away. GU will get there.

[carney2]

94, old buddy, you're looking in your gift basket for a beautifully wrapped Nova; or, better yet, a W&M; or maybe a Richmond; or the rarest of all gifts, a D-I Johns Hopkins. As for me, I'm expecting a winning lottery ticket - and I think that my chances are no worse (or better) than yours.

Time for a reality check, old friend. After all, we have been down this road many times before. The pro-scholarships crowd will take the viewpoint that once the PL has scholarships these schools - and a few others - will be more receptive. In my opinion, we may not be thinking this all the way through. Consider:

Let's assume that the current PL football schools approve football scholarships. Let's go even further and assume that the vote is 6 for and one against. (All indications are that the one against would be Holy Cross. Also, in deference to DFW and LBPop, and not wanting to duke it out with the very passionate and persuasive Texas Hoya twice in one week, I am assuming here that Georgetown would vote for scholarships even though I am not convinced of that.) Now what?

We can reasonably guess that Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh, the four horsemen of this apocalypse, are, to varying degrees, happier than a pig in stuff. They will proceed with all deliberate speed.

At the other end of this spectrum, we have Holy Cross who may (and the operative word here is may) begin looking for the exit. They make no bones about the fact that men's basketball is the only thing that makes their athletic merry-go-round - uh, well - go round. There are no guarantees here one way or the other, but a Holy Cross defection is not out of the question.

Fordham looks pretty solid. They have been competitive in the League in the past and appear to be determined to climb that mountain again. No one who has given this any thought has bet against them being in favor of football scholarships. Still, they are an associate member of the PL for football only. What's to prevent them from deciding that, as long as they are in a scholarship League anyway, why not consolidate all of their athletics in one (scholarship) place - the CAA (formerly A-10)? I'm not saying that this will happen or even that it is likely, but it is an appealing argument, is it not?

As for Georgetown, what happens when they figure out that when we are talking about football scholarsips we have in mind more than 10? More than 15? More than 20? Oh, God, you're not talking 25, are you?!!

All of this is to point out that, although the approval of scholarships may (and again the operative word is may) usher in a courtship period where the League dances with those "perfect" partners, it also could be a period of high risk with the League's very survival at stake. In my opinion, the League needs to seek the kind of partners who can assure its survival before it can take the time (and it will be a long time) to wine and dine your list of "perfect fit" members. On my list Marist and VMI need to be considered well before Villanova and and the impossible W&M and Johns Hopkins.

[ngineer]

94, old buddy, you're looking in your gift basket for a beautifully wrapped Nova; or, better yet, a W&M; or maybe a Richmond; or the rarest of all gifts, a D-I Johns Hopkins. As for me, I'm expecting a winning lottery ticket - and I think that my chances are no worse (or better) than yours.

Time for a reality check, old friend. After all, we have been down this road many times before. The pro-scholarships crowd will take the viewpoint that once the PL has scholarships these schools - and a few others - will be more receptive. In my opinion, we may not be thinking this all the way through. Consider:

Let's assume that the current PL football schools approve football scholarships. Let's go even further and assume that the vote is 6 for and one against. (All indications are that the one against would be Holy Cross. Also, in deference to DFW and LBPop, and not wanting to duke it out with the very passionate and persuasive Texas Hoya twice in one week, I am assuming here that Georgetown would vote for scholarships even though I am not convinced of that.) Now what?

We can reasonably guess that Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh, the four horsemen of this apocalypse, are, to varying degrees, happier than a pig in stuff. They will proceed with all deliberate speed.

At the other end of this spectrum, we have Holy Cross who may (and the operative word here is may) begin looking for the exit. They make no bones about the fact that men's basketball is the only thing that makes their athletic merry-go-round - uh, well - go round. There are no guarantees here one way or the other, but a Holy Cross defection is not out of the question.

Fordham looks pretty solid. They have been competitive in the League in the past and appear to be determined to climb that mountain again. No one who has given this any thought has bet against them being in favor of football scholarships. Still, they are an associate member of the PL for football only. What's to prevent them from deciding that, as long as they are in a scholarship League anyway, why not consolidate all of their athletics in one (scholarship) place - the CAA (formerly A-10)? I'm not saying that this will happen or even that it is likely, but it is an appealing argument, is it not?

As for Georgetown, what happens when they figure out that when we are talking about football scholarsips we have in mind more than 10? More than 15? More than 20? Oh, God, you're not talking 25, are you?!!

All of this is to point out that, although the approval of scholarships may (and again the operative word is may) usher in a courtship period where the League dances with those "perfect" partners, it also could be a period of high risk with the League's very survival at stake. In my opinion, the League needs to seek the kind of partners who can assure its survival before it can take the time (and it will be a long time) to wine and dine your list of "perfect fit" members. On my list Marist and VMI need to be considered well before Villanova and and the impossible W&M and Johns Hopkins.

Short term, I would agree that Marist and VMI make the most sense. If we go schollies, then Villanova would certainly consider the PL, as would Richmond--and maybe even W&M--it was dropping the scholarships that caused the revolt at W&M that lead to their leaving the original Colonial. If we're going to remain 'as is', then VMI/Marist seem the most likey candidates.

[Go...gate]

[/B]

Short term, I would agree that Marist and VMI make the most sense. If we go schollies, then Villanova would certainly consider the PL, as would Richmond--and maybe even W&M--it was dropping the scholarships that caused the revolt at W&M that lead to their leaving the original Colonial. If we're going to remain 'as is', then VMI/Marist seem the most likey candidates.

The profile of those two schools would make them more attractive as all-sports members, which the PL wants via conference-wide edict. W&M and Hopkins are nice to dream about but they will never happen. I think Villanova is a long-shot as an Associate Member, but they "grandfathered in" before the "all-sports" mandate came in a few years ago and that will make a difference.

[Pard94]

94, old buddy, you're looking in your gift basket for a beautifully wrapped Nova; or, better yet, a W&M; or maybe a Richmond; or the rarest of all gifts, a D-I Johns Hopkins. As for me, I'm expecting a winning lottery ticket - and I think that my chances are no worse (or better) than yours.

Time for a reality check, old friend. After all, we have been down this road many times before. The pro-scholarships crowd will take the viewpoint that once the PL has scholarships these schools - and a few others - will be more receptive. In my opinion, we may not be thinking this all the way through. Consider:

Let's assume that the current PL football schools approve football scholarships. Let's go even further and assume that the vote is 6 for and one against. (All indications are that the one against would be Holy Cross. Also, in deference to DFW and LBPop, and not wanting to duke it out with the very passionate and persuasive Texas Hoya twice in one week, I am assuming here that Georgetown would vote for scholarships even though I am not convinced of that.) Now what?

We can reasonably guess that Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh, the four horsemen of this apocalypse, are, to varying degrees, happier than a pig in stuff. They will proceed with all deliberate speed.

At the other end of this spectrum, we have Holy Cross who may (and the operative word here is may) begin looking for the exit. They make no bones about the fact that men's basketball is the only thing that makes their athletic merry-go-round - uh, well - go round. There are no guarantees here one way or the other, but a Holy Cross defection is not out of the question.

Fordham looks pretty solid. They have been competitive in the League in the past and appear to be determined to climb that mountain again. No one who has given this any thought has bet against them being in favor of football scholarships. Still, they are an associate member of the PL for football only. What's to prevent them from deciding that, as long as they are in a scholarship League anyway, why not consolidate all of their athletics in one (scholarship) place - the CAA (formerly A-10)? I'm not saying that this will happen or even that it is likely, but it is an appealing argument, is it not?

As for Georgetown, what happens when they figure out that when we are talking about football scholarsips we have in mind more than 10? More than 15? More than 20? Oh, God, you're not talking 25, are you?!!

All of this is to point out that, although the approval of scholarships may (and again the operative word is may) usher in a courtship period where the League dances with those "perfect" partners, it also could be a period of high risk with the League's very survival at stake. In my opinion, the League needs to seek the kind of partners who can assure its survival before it can take the time (and it will be a long time) to wine and dine your list of "perfect fit" members. On my list Marist and VMI need to be considered well before Villanova and and the impossible W&M and Johns Hopkins.

No doubt I am oversimplifying things. I am, however, going on the assumption that we will be full schollies in three years. If that happens I think we will be in a much better position to pick and choose our dancing partners. So much so I think we can could easily make up for a HC departure (most likely with a Marist addition). So, in my perfect scenario, we add Marist (to make up for HC) and then add Nova and maybe Richmond or JHU. I don't like VMI as much. They are a LONG way away coupled with the whole military thing...not that I am against military schools in any way be it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the league. Actually, correction...in my PERFECT scenario HC comes to their senses and stays in the PL. I think any alternative would leave a very bad taste in their mouth.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No doubt I am oversimplifying things. I am, however, going on the assumption that we will be full schollies in three years. If that happens I think we will be in a much better position to pick and choose our dancing partners. So much so I think we can could easily make up for a HC departure (most likely with a Marist addition). So, in my perfect scenario, we add Marist (to make up for HC) and then add Nova and maybe Richmond or JHU. I don't like VMI as much. They are a LONG way away coupled with the whole military thing...not that I am against military schools in any way be it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the league. Actually, correction...in my PERFECT scenario HC comes to their senses and stays in the PL. I think any alternative would leave a very bad taste in their mouth.

*choking on coffee*

You're saying an league with Army and Navy in it for all-sports except football, another military school doesn't fit?!? xidiotx

I'm pretty shocked that folks feel like we could just "lose" HC and everything would be hunky-dory. I do not believe that at all. Losing one of our top basketball schools to be REPLACED by Marist is not good for the league. ADDING Marist to our already-pretty-good basketball teams while shoring up our football league is another matter entirely.

I tend to agree with carney2 on this:


All of this is to point out that, although the approval of scholarships may (and again the operative word is may) usher in a courtship period where the League dances with those "perfect" partners, it also could be a period of high risk with the League's very survival at stake. In my opinion, the League needs to seek the kind of partners who can assure its survival before it can take the time (and it will be a long time) to wine and dine your list of "perfect fit" members. On my list Marist and VMI need to be considered well before Villanova and and the impossible W&M and Johns Hopkins.

I.E., the league would find it hard to go to scholarships to maybe get associate members and maybe lose out on other associate (or full-time) members. carney2's point is to take on partners that "assure its survival" (read: teams willing to come on in all-sports such as Marist and VMI) rather than chasing associates that would (possibly) only improve football (Richmond, Villanova) or are perfect matches but are with institutions that don't want to join (W&M, JHU).

[carney2]

No doubt I am oversimplifying things. I am, however, going on the assumption that we will be full schollies in three years. If that happens I think we will be in a much better position to pick and choose our dancing partners. So much so I think we can could easily make up for a HC departure (most likely with a Marist addition). So, in my perfect scenario, we add Marist (to make up for HC) and then add Nova and maybe Richmond or JHU. I don't like VMI as much. They are a LONG way away coupled with the whole military thing...not that I am against military schools in any way be it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the league. Actually, correction...in my PERFECT scenario HC comes to their senses and stays in the PL. I think any alternative would leave a very bad taste in their mouth.

I guess my long and boring post was not as clear and obvious as I hoped. My point was that the Patriot League as it is now constituted has so many potential fracture points that its survival to the "dancing partners" stage is not assured. The advent of football scholarships will, I believe, put a lot of pressure on many of these weak points. Please note that, because it is not directly affected by football, I did not mention the Army-Navy fracture point that, I guess, could be activated by the defection of an all sports member. These two form essentially a "league of two" that always has the potential to go tumbling off in its own direction.

I have written this elsewhere, but I will state it yet again:

W&M and/or Johns Hopkins to the Patriot League: not in my lifetime; not in your lifetime; not in the lifetime of anyone currently drawing a breath on this planet; not in this century; not in the 22nd century. Can you say NEVER? Can you say NEVER EVER? I wish I could stop equivocating on this.

[Fordham]

Patriot League's outsmarted itself (http://www.mcall.com/sports/college/all-recruitingbrainfeb09,0,3364636.story). Surprised I haven't seen any of you PA guys post this but it's a point of discussion on the Fordham board. Great article imo, although it doesn't mention the impact of the rise of the NEC schools. Regardless, I give Tavani credit for speaking out and getting heard. He's the first one that I've seen 'go public' with the atrophy occurring on this issue.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thanks Fordham, yeah, this is no doubt a fascinating article - one I'm hoping to take up on the blog sometime in the very near future. It is a good "starting point" on some of these issues that I'll be going over in some depth (I hope) soon.

[Franks Tanks]

Patriot League's outsmarted itself (http://www.mcall.com/sports/college/all-recruitingbrainfeb09,0,3364636.story). Surprised I haven't seen any of you PA guys post this but it's a point of discussion on the Fordham board. Great article imo, although it doesn't mention the impact of the rise of the NEC schools. Regardless, I give Tavani credit for speaking out and getting heard. He's the first one that I've seen 'go public' with the atrophy occurring on this issue.


Yes, a very interisting article indeed. We discussed this on the Lafayette Board www.voy.com/83003/ and it is clear at this point that we must do something to continue to get the athletes that will allow us to complete in the palyoffs and challenge for National Championships.

[DFW HOYA]

Patriot League's outsmarted itself (http://www.mcall.com/sports/college/all-recruitingbrainfeb09,0,3364636.story). Surprised I haven't seen any of you PA guys post this but it's a point of discussion on the Fordham board. Great article imo, although it doesn't mention the impact of the rise of the NEC schools. Regardless, I give Tavani credit for speaking out and getting heard. He's the first one that I've seen 'go public' with the atrophy occurring on this issue.

If Tavani, Coen, et al. were making the decision, it would be an easy one. But it's the presidents that make the call instead. The colalteral damage of such a decision (losing 1 to 3 members, jeopardizing the auto-bid, potentially higher costs for Title IX compliance, the wailing from John Feinstein that the PL is selling out, etc.) will be carefully considered and, if past decisions are any indication, it will take much longer than some fans want.

The PL is really four different constituencies: four private schools (Leh, Laf, Colgate, Bucknell), three Jesuit schools (HC, Fordham, Georgetown), two military academies (USMA, USNA), and the wild card (American). But as it relates to football, this thought: If the PL mandates 63 scholarship football, it could lose the autobid. If it allows schools to add a mix of scholarships and equivalencies at the schools' institutional discretion (mindful that some schools will go to 63 and others won't), they can maintain a mix of memebrship stability.

[carney2]

The PL is really four different constituencies: the core private schools (Leh, Laf, Colgate, Bucknell), the three Jesuit schools (HC, Fordham, Georgetown), the military academies (USMA, USNA), and American, which isn't a strong fit with any of the others. But as it relates to football, this thought: If the PL mandates full scholarship football, it will probably lose the autobid. If it simply allows schools to add a mix of scholarships and equivalencies at the schools' institutional discretion (mindful that some schools will go to 63 and others won't), they can maintain stability.

A very interesting few sentences. The release of everyone on their own recognizance is, of course, the type of "no decision" decision that just might pacify everyone in the short run. I am intersted in the hi-lited sentence above and what your thoughts are as to why mandated football scholarships would cost the League its auto bid. Is it because you foresee defections that would drop League membership beneath the NCAA bottom limit for a bid?

[Pard94]

*choking on coffee*

You're saying an league with Army and Navy in it for all-sports except football, another military school doesn't fit?!? xidiotx

I'm pretty shocked that folks feel like we could just "lose" HC and everything would be hunky-dory. I do not believe that at all. Losing one of our top basketball schools to be REPLACED by Marist is not good for the league. ADDING Marist to our already-pretty-good basketball teams while shoring up our football league is another matter entirely.

I tend to agree with carney2 on this:



I.E., the league would find it hard to go to scholarships to maybe get associate members and maybe lose out on other associate (or full-time) members. carney2's point is to take on partners that "assure its survival" (read: teams willing to come on in all-sports such as Marist and VMI) rather than chasing associates that would (possibly) only improve football (Richmond, Villanova) or are perfect matches but are with institutions that don't want to join (W&M, JHU).

Army and Navy is just not happening. It involves a formal step down whereas some of the others mentioned would just need to switch leagues. They won't even play us in football let alone join us in the league for football. And no offense but VMI is NOT West Point no matter how much they try. They would have been had that pesky little War of Northern Aggression turned out a little different:rolleyes: but it didn't. There is something to be said for being THE United States Military Academy or THE United States Naval Academy. Those institutions would certainly be fine additions to the PL as full members...but that's a pipe dream.

And as I menetioned, it would be ideal if HC would come to their senses and STAY...but I don't think we should back off football scholarships because of that. The basketball thing will even out soon enough now that the field has been leveled. As I recall, Lafayette was pretty damn dominant there for a while when we were all playing by the same rules. I suspect we will dominante again under Fran's direction. We need to stop thinking in "as is" terms and starting thinking from a "to be" perspective.

[Pard94]

If Tavani, Coen, et al. were making the decision, it would be an easy one. But it's the presidents that make the call instead. The colalteral damage of such a decision (losing 1 to 3 members, jeopardizing the auto-bid, potentially higher costs for Title IX compliance, the wailing from John Feinstein that the PL is selling out, etc.) will be carefully considered and, if past decisions are any indication, it will take much longer than some fans want.

The PL is really four different constituencies: four private schools (Leh, Laf, Colgate, Bucknell), three Jesuit schools (HC, Fordham, Georgetown), two military academies (USMA, USNA), and the wild card (American). But as it relates to football, this thought: If the PL mandates 63 scholarship football, it could lose the autobid. If it allows schools to add a mix of scholarships and equivalencies at the schools' institutional discretion (mindful that some schools will go to 63 and others won't), they can maintain a mix of memebrship stability.

No offense but I think that is a bad idea. We have seen what happens in B-ball when members play under different rules "at the institution'd discretion". The league very quickly turns into a one or two trick pony at best. Don't want that in football.

[Tribe4SF]

Patriot League's outsmarted itself (http://www.mcall.com/sports/college/all-recruitingbrainfeb09,0,3364636.story). Surprised I haven't seen any of you PA guys post this but it's a point of discussion on the Fordham board. Great article imo, although it doesn't mention the impact of the rise of the NEC schools. Regardless, I give Tavani credit for speaking out and getting heard. He's the first one that I've seen 'go public' with the atrophy occurring on this issue.

I hate it when W&M folks raise the "we're at a disadvantage" excuse when we have a down year. Our academic profile is far more stringent than what Tavani has, with over 80% of freshmen ranking in the top 10% of their class, and 97% in the top 20%. The issue of scholarships is obviously something that makes a difference, but he knew the type of school he was going to work for when they hired him. I asked Jimmye Laycock his view on the recruiting challenges for W&M when he was first hired in 1980. He said..."You have to see it as a strength, and if you don't really believe it is, then you end up using it as an excuse." If Tavani wants a National Championship, and is wavering in his commitment to his schools academic mission, then maybe he should look for work elsewhere.

[LBPop]

Georgetown gives no appearance of knowing where they are going with regards to football. We have the "support" and lip service referenced by you and LBPop which says to me "Let's keep a toe in the water just in case we decide to do something," and we have the evidence which indicates a MAAC program in PL clothing. Back in my old home town we had a saying that applies perfectly here:

Don't tell me; show me.
I'm going to step out of character here and take issue with what I consider to be an insensitive bit of commentary. Let me offer a few pieces of information that might allow you to be just a bit more patient with those of us who actually know something about Georgetown football beyond the obvious:
If you have read my infrequent but sincere posts, I have repeatedly said that talk doesn't get it done on the field. I actually have taken issue with DFW for whom I have a great deal of respect when he raises the money issue...to me it's an unacceptable excuse. They can win with their current budget and I have said so. It's all about Ws and I have said as much to my son, his teammates and his coaches.
Your revelation that Georgetown "gives no appearance of knowing where they are going with regards to football" is fascinating. I assume that what has "appeared" to you is their performance on the field. Well, that has "appeared" to everyone...it has "appeared" to me in person more than 30 times in the past three season. What those of us who are in a position to know more than the obvious are trying to do is to share that additional information with the readers of this board. Isn't that what this forum is for? Sure, talk doesn't get it done, but that's all that is available here.
I could not agree with you more that Georgetown's on-field performance has been weak. They have 11 days out of each year to show the results of their efforts and we have more than 350 days each year to discuss it. So, that's what we do on this board. Yes, there's little empirical evidence of progress, but let me offer one piece of information that has appeared to anyone lucky enough to have watched Georgetown play the 2nd half of last season. Coach Kelly, with an abbreviated recruiting period, found the PL Rookie of the Year. Sure, that's just one player, but it's a first for the Hoyas and I will bet Charlie Houghton opened a few eyes as the PL D-Coordinators watched his tapes. If you saw the game at Fisher field, you saw Charlie Houghton put on a show. I would urge you to visit DC next season if only to watch this kid carry the football--he's fun.Let me ask a favor. My optimism originates with two people, both of whom are very new to Georgetown--the AD and the head coach. Last year was their first together. Please join me in evaluating what happens in 2007. For the first time in years they know who their #1 QB and their #1 RB will be going into the Spring. Anything less than the "appearance" of five wins and two wins in the PL will be indefensible and I will be right among those whose patience will be tried. Until then, I will continue to offer my occasional insights into what is going on at Georgetown. My guess is that the majority of Patriot League fans are happy to be associated with the school and are quietly rooting for its football program to improve...but maybe not too much. ;)

[Franks Tanks]

I hate it when W&M folks raise the "we're at a disadvantage" excuse when we have a down year. Our academic profile is far more stringent than what Tavani has, with over 80% of freshmen ranking in the top 10% of their class, and 97% in the top 20%. The issue of scholarships is obviously something that makes a difference, but he knew the type of school he was going to work for when they hired him. I asked Jimmye Laycock his view on the recruiting challenges for W&M when he was first hired in 1980. He said..."You have to see it as a strength, and if you don't really believe it is, then you end up using it as an excuse." If Tavani wants a National Championship, and is wavering in his commitment to his schools academic mission, then maybe he should look for work elsewhere.


Oh please dont overstate the scores of W&M's FB players. I know quite a few gentleman who played FB at W&M, one from my high school and two from the neighboring public school. They were great kids and did well in school, but none of their SAT's exceeded 1100, they were all at or right below that level. That is certainly respectable, but dont act like all your players have a 1500 SAT

[DFW HOYA]

I actually have taken issue with DFW for whom I have a great deal of respect when he raises the money issue...to me it's an unacceptable excuse. They can win with their current budget and I have said so. It's all about Ws and I have said as much to my son, his teammates and his coaches.

I think we agree on this. My point, if not made more clearly in the past, is that a lack of funding hurts the ability to recruit depth. This was especially true in the earlier years of PL play where Georgetown did not have depth at skill positions, particularly receiver and o-line.

You can certainly win without depth, as teams do, but the room for error is much tighter.

[citdog]

How about throwing admission requirements out the window like that stellar basketball program of yours? Gtown GRADUATED Patrick Ewing he can't even speak english!

[DFW HOYA]

How about throwing admission requirements out the window like that stellar basketball program of yours? Gtown GRADUATED Patrick Ewing he can't even speak english!

You don't know much about Georgetown, do you? Save the smack for football.

[citdog]

I have a friend who went there and he still cringes when I mention that Ewing has the same diploma hanging on his wall as he does! :nod:

[Tribe4SF]

Oh please dont overstate the scores of W&M's FB players. I know quite a few gentleman who played FB at W&M, one from my high school and two from the neighboring public school. They were great kids and did well in school, but none of their SAT's exceeded 1100, they were all at or right below that level. That is certainly respectable, but dont act like all your players have a 1500 SAT

Who said anything about football players and SAT scores? Your scores can't have been too good, considering your reading ability.

If you're implying that W&M has an easier time admitting football prospects than Lafayette does, you're wrong. The relevant comparison is the academic profiles of the schools to which players are being recruited. That, and the current coaches' propensity to whine about it. Tavani's argument that the academic floor of the Patriot League schools exceeds that of the Ivy League is laughable, and I can't believe the writer didn't challenge that assertion. The only school in the Patriot with a profile approaching the Ivies is Georgetown.

[Go...gate]

I'm going to step out of character here and take issue with what I consider to be an insensitive bit of commentary. Let me offer a few pieces of information that might allow you to be just a bit more patient with those of us who actually know something about Georgetown football beyond the obvious:
If you have read my infrequent but sincere posts, I have repeatedly said that talk doesn't get it done on the field. I actually have taken issue with DFW for whom I have a great deal of respect when he raises the money issue...to me it's an unacceptable excuse. They can win with their current budget and I have said so. It's all about Ws and I have said as much to my son, his teammates and his coaches.
Your revelation that Georgetown "gives no appearance of knowing where they are going with regards to football" is fascinating. I assume that what has "appeared" to you is their performance on the field. Well, that has "appeared" to everyone...it has "appeared" to me in person more than 30 times in the past three season. What those of us who are in a position to know more than the obvious are trying to do is to share that additional information with the readers of this board. Isn't that what this forum is for? Sure, talk doesn't get it done, but that's all that is available here.
I could not agree with you more that Georgetown's on-field performance has been weak. They have 11 days out of each year to show the results of their efforts and we have more than 350 days each year to discuss it. So, that's what we do on this board. Yes, there's little empirical evidence of progress, but let me offer one piece of information that has appeared to anyone lucky enough to have watched Georgetown play the 2nd half of last season. Coach Kelly, with an abbreviated recruiting period, found the PL Rookie of the Year. Sure, that's just one player, but it's a first for the Hoyas and I will bet Charlie Houghton opened a few eyes as the PL D-Coordinators watched his tapes. If you saw the game at Fisher field, you saw Charlie Houghton put on a show. I would urge you to visit DC next season if only to watch this kid carry the football--he's fun.Let me ask a favor. My optimism originates with two people, both of whom are very new to Georgetown--the AD and the head coach. Last year was their first together. Please join me in evaluating what happens in 2007. For the first time in years they know who their #1 QB and their #1 RB will be going into the Spring. Anything less than the "appearance" of five wins and two wins in the PL will be indefensible and I will be right among those whose patience will be tried. Until then, I will continue to offer my occasional insights into what is going on at Georgetown. My guess is that the majority of Patriot League fans are happy to be associated with the school and are quietly rooting for its football program to improve...but maybe not too much. ;)

Well said, LBPop, but this Red Raider hopes you do very well! As Greg Schiano said in his darkest days at Rutgers, "just keep chopping away"! :thumbsup:

[Go...gate]

Who said anything about football players and SAT scores? Your scores can't have been too good, considering your reading ability.

If you're implying that W&M has an easier time admitting football prospects than Lafayette does, you're wrong. The relevant comparison is the academic profiles of the schools to which players are being recruited. That, and the current coaches' propensity to whine about it. Tavani's argument that the academic floor of the Patriot League schools exceeds that of the Ivy League is laughable, and I can't believe the writer didn't challenge that assertion. The only school in the Patriot with a profile approaching the Ivies is Georgetown.

I have great respect for W&M, but I think you are overstating this a bit.

[Tribe4SF]

I have great respect for W&M, but I think you are overstating this a bit.

It really has nothing to do with W&M. Just check the profiles. Percent of freshmen in top 10%, mid 50% SAT range, percent with GPA above 3.0. All of the Patriot schools are fine institutions, but the one overstating things was Tavani. Georgetown 2005 incoming freshmen had 90% in top 10% of class, 98% above 3.0, and mid 50 SAT ranges of 640-740 verbal and 640-730 math. Those numbers are above other Patriot schools, and nearly on par with the Ivies. Colgate is right behind Georgetown, but lags considerably on percent in top 10% of class at 73.

My point in this is that Tavani is exaggerating, and from my view, making excuses. He and Coen publicly lamenting the quality of their players is not going to help the situation. The words "Division III talent" were used in that article. Imagine how his current squad felt when they read that.

[Go...gate]

It really has nothing to do with W&M. Just check the profiles. Percent of freshmen in top 10%, mid 50% SAT range, percent with GPA above 3.0. All of the Patriot schools are fine institutions, but the one overstating things was Tavani. Georgetown 2005 incoming freshmen had 90% in top 10% of class, 98% above 3.0, and mid 50 SAT ranges of 640-740 verbal and 640-730 math. Those numbers are above other Patriot schools, and nearly on par with the Ivies. Colgate is right behind Georgetown, but lags considerably on percent in top 10% of class at 73.

My point in this is that Tavani is exaggerating, and from my view, making excuses. He and Coen publicly lamenting the quality of their players is not going to help the situation. The words "Division III talent" were used in that article. Imagine how his current squad felt when they read that.


Agree that the article was a bit bombastic by Tavani, who, rightly or wrongly, is becoming the voice of Patriot League football. I prefer our coach, Biddle, who learned a lot of his craft from Fred Dunlap and shares his class. He keeps his mouth shut and does his job and lets his record speak for him.

[Franks Tanks]

Who said anything about football players and SAT scores? Your scores can't have been too good, considering your reading ability.

If you're implying that W&M has an easier time admitting football prospects than Lafayette does, you're wrong. The relevant comparison is the academic profiles of the schools to which players are being recruited. That, and the current coaches' propensity to whine about it. Tavani's argument that the academic floor of the Patriot League schools exceeds that of the Ivy League is laughable, and I can't believe the writer didn't challenge that assertion. The only school in the Patriot with a profile approaching the Ivies is Georgetown.

Hey Buddy I dont appreciate the personal attacks, and I can ensure you that my academic record and SAT scores would speak for themselves. Anyway you clearly were attempting to infer that at W&M you are much smarter than us and still recruit athletes that dont deviate from your general student profile. Well this just isnt the facts, since I personally know of 3 instances of players whom I know personally who didnt crack 1100 and have played for W&M recently. We have difficulty getting kids in with below 1100, and you obvioulsy do not. This has nothing to do with the scores and numbers of the student body as a WHOLE. Lafayette is much smaller so recruiting just a few kids with so-so grades can throw off the incoming class numbers, therefore we have to more careful, and have less wiggle room. I frankly dont care how much better you think W&M is than Patriot League schools, I am refering simply to FB admits, and it is clear from my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that you let in kids with slightly above average academic backgrounds. The Fact remains that in these 3 REAL WORLD experiences I feel The Lafayette coaching staff would have had great difficulty admitting them, when they had no problem waltzing into Bill & Mary.

[Andy]

I hate it when W&M folks raise the "we're at a disadvantage" excuse when we have a down year. Our academic profile is far more stringent than what Tavani has, with over 80% of freshmen ranking in the top 10% of their class, and 97% in the top 20%. The issue of scholarships is obviously something that makes a difference, but he knew the type of school he was going to work for when they hired him. I asked Jimmye Laycock his view on the recruiting challenges for W&M when he was first hired in 1980. He said..."You have to see it as a strength, and if you don't really believe it is, then you end up using it as an excuse." If Tavani wants a National Championship, and is wavering in his commitment to his schools academic mission, then maybe he should look for work elsewhere.

The main argument for PL basketball scholarships was that they would broaden the recruiting base, raise the academic profile of the recruiting classes, and help to recruit against the Ivys-and they're working. Why does it raise your ire when Tavani makes the same argument for football?
He's not as you say "wavering in his commitment to his schools academic mission", he's trying to enhance the effectiveness of his recruiting in support of the mission. Your coach has scholarships to help recruit into your stringent academic environment, but our coach shouldn't argue for the same?

By the way, LC's class of 2010--76% top tenth of HS class, 96% top quarter---W & M "far more stringent? come on.

You and I have no idea on how the Ivy comes up with their floor. If they used the same "two standard deviations" as the PL, obviously they would have a higher floor. And if it were that obvious, Tavani would be a fool to make his assertion--he's not a fool and he has 20 years experience recruiting vs the Ivy, I'll take his word over yours.

[Andy]

A quick look at W & M's recruit list on Rivals shows many recruits in common with the PL. There's no difference in the academic quality of the recruits that a "far more stringent academic profile" would seem to demand. One commit had a very PL-like 1100 SAT and an "offered" recruit scored a 980.

[Andy]

Agree that the article was a bit bombastic by Tavani, who, rightly or wrongly, is becoming the voice of Patriot League football. I prefer our coach, Biddle, who learned a lot of his craft from Fred Dunlap and shares his class. He keeps his mouth shut and does his job and lets his record speak for him.

This doesn't sound like a typical Go Gate post. You're suggesting Tavani doesn't have class because he's gone proactive on the scholarship issue and Biddle's a class guy because he stays quiet. If Biddle would speak out on the topic it might help bring about what most of us feel is a desirable end.

[DFW HOYA]

From the Morning Call:

Tavani offers three possible scenarios. ''You either have to go merit aid and cut down on the size of the squads, or you have to lower your standards, or your Step 3 is keep it the same and watch the level of play diminish,'' he said. ''There are no other answers. I've said that privately many times and I don't mind saying it in public.''

No, there's a fourth: work harder. There are a lot more than 200 kids capable of playing PL or Ivy football and coaches like Tavani have to start recruiting more kids outside the Northeast.

I'm not philosophically opposed to scholarships if and when there is consensus. It doesn't appear that's the case right now.

[Tribe4SF]

Hey Buddy I dont appreciate the personal attacks, and I can ensure you that my academic record and SAT scores would speak for themselves. Anyway you clearly were attempting to infer that at W&M you are much smarter than us and still recruit athletes that dont deviate from your general student profile. Well this just isnt the facts, since I personally know of 3 instances of players whom I know personally who didnt crack 1100 and have played for W&M recently. We have difficulty getting kids in with below 1100, and you obvioulsy do not. This has nothing to do with the scores and numbers of the student body as a WHOLE. Lafayette is much smaller so recruiting just a few kids with so-so grades can throw off the incoming class numbers, therefore we have to more careful, and have less wiggle room. I frankly dont care how much better you think W&M is than Patriot League schools, I am refering simply to FB admits, and it is clear from my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that you let in kids with slightly above average academic backgrounds. The Fact remains that in these 3 REAL WORLD experiences I feel The Lafayette coaching staff would have had great difficulty admitting them, when they had no problem waltzing into Bill & Mary.

Sorry about the slam, but you changed the subject, and implied things I didn't say. As to the three guys you know, you're aware I'm sure of the value of anecdotal evidence. I think I'm a little better informed than you about the academic profile of W&M recruits.

[Tribe4SF]

A quick look at W & M's recruit list on Rivals shows many recruits in common with the PL. There's no difference in the academic quality of the recruits that a "far more stringent academic profile" would seem to demand. One commit had a very PL-like 1100 SAT and an "offered" recruit scored a 980.

Remember that Rivals typically is showing Junior SATs. Did W&M sign the 980? The 1100 was Harold Robertson, and I know that was his Junior score. He was a three year all-academic pick in his conference.

Somehow this is turning into a W&M vs. Patriot pissing match, which wasn't my approach at all. I cited W&M's academic profile to highlight the different approach of the coaches, recognizing the scholarship issue. The facts are these for 2005 entering Feshmen.

Lafayette

Mid 50% SATs
- 570-660 verbal
- 600-700 math
GPA 3.0 or higher - 96%
Rank in top tenth - 61%

W&M

Mid 50% SATs
- 630-730 verbal
- 620-710 math
GPA 3.0 or higher - 99%
Rank in top tenth - 80%

The "far more stringent" referred only to Lafayette, and was an excessive comparison. Leave it at "more stringent".

It also should be noted that we recruit a number of walk-ons every year, including a guy who finished in '04 named Lang Campbell. Campbell, by the way, was the A-10 Scholar-Athlete of the year. Coach Clawson at Richmond is showing that it's possible to draw walk-ons to a high academic profile, very expensive school. Richmond's roster has expanded significantly since he took over. And yet Tavani sees no way out. Keep it the way it is and continue to deteriorate. Go merit based and shrink the roster. The only one of his three options that holds the promise of success (in his mind) is lowering standards.

[Andy]

The only one of his three options that holds the promise of success (in his mind) is lowering standards.[/QUOTE]

So you read this:

''In football, we still represent what the Patriot League originated on — high academic standards, need-based aid and quality student athletes,'' Tavani said.

''The rest of the league in other sports has changed that with the onset of merit aid. It's confusing that we are in the Patriot League to the common person. They go, 'Wait a minute, the Patriot League gives scholarships.' They give it in basketball. Yes, they do. But, not in football. We have to answer to that.''

and think he's appealing for lower standards? He's screaming for scholarships! He did another interview during halftime of a bball game --he made a case for scholarships. He wants what W & M, Richmond and now the NEC have.

From lafayette.edu:

Profile of the Class of 2010*
Applied Accepted Enrolled
Men 3,294 1,140 339
Women 2,581 1,029 291

Total 5,875 2,169 630


SAT scores of the middle 50 percent of enrolled students ranged from 580-670 verbal and from 620-710 math.

Of those accepted candidates who reported a class rank, 76 percent were in the top 10th of the secondary school class, 96 percent in the top fourth.

The Class of 2010 includes students from 29 states plus the District of Columbia and territories and 38 countries of citizenship.

[youwouldno]

The argument over whose football players are smarter is ridiculous... and stats based on the undergraduate body as a whole are worthless because different programs are willing to make more or less allowances to bring in players. Even at programs that do a great job bringing in student-athletes, such as W&M and the PL schools, among others, there are plenty of guys that aren't exactly geniuses.

And of course W&M, Richmond, Furman, Wofford and others have a huge advantage against PL schools because the former programs can offer scholarships. The irony of course is that the scholarships make it easier to get good students because the strong academic programs seek those athletes out, and the PL programs basically can't compete. Most student-athletes would not pay to go PL when they can go to a good school in the CAA or SoCon, etc. for free.

The Ivies lose lots of battles themselves but its easier for them to recruit nationally. In any case, Tavani is unquestionably correct and it must be hard for a smart, competitive coach like him (and others in the PL) to be handicapped for no good reason, other than a misplaced arrogance similar to the Ivies refusal to participate in the playoffs.

[Franks Tanks]

Exactly my whole point here is not what school is rated higher, but who they let in to play sports. Of course the G-town comparison comes in, probably one of the 15 best schools in the country, and Alan Inverson gets in. Cleary a large deviation from their genaral student body. Ok so Lafayette is somewhat less accomplished than W&M as far as Freshman class numbers, but again that is not indicitave of who they are allowed to bring in to play football. That is what Taviani is talking about, nobody is saying that is tougher to get into Lafayette that say Columbia, we are saying that due to our small size and zero flexibility to deviate from standards our pool is small and shrinking. Also Tibe you claim to know so much about the recruits and players academic profiles, than what are they in comparison to the general W&M student body??? The three sub 1100's that I am rererencing graduated from W&M and did well while their, but they were let in with no problem. Their is no way based on what I have seen personally that you FB team incoming freshman number sare equal to your regular student.

[Tribe4SF]

Exactly my whole point here is not what school is rated higher, but who they let in to play sports. Of course the G-town comparison comes in, probably one of the 15 best schools in the country, and Alan Inverson gets in. Cleary a large deviation from their genaral student body. Ok so Lafayette is somewhat less accomplished than W&M as far as Freshman class numbers, but again that is not indicitave of who they are allowed to bring in to play football. That is what Taviani is talking about, nobody is saying that is tougher to get into Lafayette that say Columbia, we are saying that due to our small size and zero flexibility to deviate from standards our pool is small and shrinking. Also Tibe you claim to know so much about the recruits and players academic profiles, than what are they in comparison to the general W&M student body??? The three sub 1100's that I am rererencing graduated from W&M and did well while their, but they were let in with no problem. Their is no way based on what I have seen personally that you FB team incoming freshman number sare equal to your regular student.

Of course they're not, and neither are Lafayette's. All of us at high academic profile schools have to carefully choose players who can be successful academically. We all do a good job of that, as evidenced by our APR and GSR numbers. I'm sure Lafayette takes the same approach as W&M. If a kid is down under 1100 SAT, there has to be evidence that he is a good student, and will work hard. W&M is especially sensitive to verbal scores because the first two years are writing intensive. We have an academic review staff that works closely with the admissions office to gauge a recruits preparedness. I can assure you that your three buddies were not "let in with no problem". Based on their success, I'd say admissions correctly judged their character and work ethic.

[Franks Tanks]

Of course they're not, and neither are Lafayette's. All of us at high academic profile schools have to carefully choose players who can be successful academically. We all do a good job of that, as evidenced by our APR and GSR numbers. I'm sure Lafayette takes the same approach as W&M. If a kid is down under 1100 SAT, there has to be evidence that he is a good student, and will work hard. W&M is especially sensitive to verbal scores because the first two years are writing intensive. We have an academic review staff that works closely with the admissions office to gauge a recruits preparedness. I can assure you that your three buddies were not "let in with no problem". Based on their success, I'd say admissions correctly judged their character and work ethic.


Precisely, we are on teh same page. Taviani was sttaing however how much more difficult reruiting is without scholarships and the Ivies breathing down our necks and recruiting the same kids due to our geographic proximity.

[Fordham]

I hate it when W&M folks raise the "we're at a disadvantage" excuse when we have a down year. Our academic profile is far more stringent than what Tavani has, with over 80% of freshmen ranking in the top 10% of their class, and 97% in the top 20%. The issue of scholarships is obviously something that makes a difference, but he knew the type of school he was going to work for when they hired him. I asked Jimmye Laycock his view on the recruiting challenges for W&M when he was first hired in 1980. He said..."You have to see it as a strength, and if you don't really believe it is, then you end up using it as an excuse." If Tavani wants a National Championship, and is wavering in his commitment to his schools academic mission, then maybe he should look for work elsewhere.

1. Your overall academic profile is meaningless unless you tell us what your deviation for football players is. I'm not saying that it might not be excellent, I'm saying that the overall number you're harping on is meaningless to this discussion.

2. Save the Laycock BS for somewhere else. You offhandedly throw out the whole thing this is about which is scholarships (bolded above in your 'throw away' line). If you took the time to understand two things, it may make more sense why Tavani is 'going public' with this or at least leading the charge on the topic: a)
The Patriot League has hired a consulting firm to study the rapidly shrinking talent pool and how it affects the teams.
This means that the time is now to try to apply whatever pressure can be applied to the league. Part of that includes educating as many people in possible in as high profile a way as possible (e.g. - alums, university officials, league officials, those conducting the study, general fans, etc). The point is basically being made that a key decision that could tremendously impact the future of PL football is taking place right now via whatever the league decides to do or not do about what the study group's recommendations are ... and the more people that realize that the status quo means going backwards v. standing pat, the more likely there is to be some sort of 'noise' to try to influence both the study group as well as PL officials. His timing for finally making a public stand looks right on target when considering that bit of tid. Also, b) Tavani's data shows the Ivies floor has changed with the PL's now higher AND, something the article didn't focus on but is also VERY important, the NEC schools have gone scholly ... both of which make it much, much more difficult to recruit in the Northeast. Now, go and tell me what great 'change' Jimmye Laycock experienced that would correspond with these two things. Now tell me how smart he would have sounded when, if presented with these great changes, he simply shrugged and said 'well, the way it's been is what I signed up for" and then kept you guys on an path towards being uncompetitive. 3 cheers for Tavani as far as I'm concerned.

And regarding the new geography that we need to recruit from - why should that be the case? Why should we be forced to bear the increased costs associated with recruiting nationally due to the fact that we can't compete nearly as well as we used to now that other schools are offering full rides and the Ivies are more lenient? Again, there is no philosophical issue that the league has preventing it from going scholly? Why are they forcing the budgets to either be increased or have a greater % of them allocated to recruiting now that we can't simply live off of the Northeast? Seems to me that this should be a school's choice v. something we're forced into doing.

[Go...gate]

This doesn't sound like a typical Go Gate post. You're suggesting Tavani doesn't have class because he's gone proactive on the scholarship issue and Biddle's a class guy because he stays quiet. If Biddle would speak out on the topic it might help bring about what most of us feel is a desirable end.

Please accept my sincere apology, Andy and all Leopards - I did not mean to imply that I don't think Tavani is not a great and classy coach, a good man, or that he has not done a fantastic job (the opposite is true - he saved the LC program just as Biddle saved Colgate's.) I do think, however, that while it is good to be forthright, sometimes you can say too much. I believe Tavani did that here and gave somewhat of an impression that he speaks for all the coaches in the league. Frankly, Femovich should say this kind of stuff - that is her job.

I hope this clears up what I said. I have great respect for Lafayette and root for their success no less than any other Patriot League team (except Colgate, of course :) )

[Go...gate]

From the Morning Call:

Tavani offers three possible scenarios. ''You either have to go merit aid and cut down on the size of the squads, or you have to lower your standards, or your Step 3 is keep it the same and watch the level of play diminish,'' he said. ''There are no other answers. I've said that privately many times and I don't mind saying it in public.''

No, there's a fourth: work harder. There are a lot more than 200 kids capable of playing PL or Ivy football and coaches like Tavani have to start recruiting more kids outside the Northeast.

I'm not philosophically opposed to scholarships if and when there is consensus. It doesn't appear that's the case right now.

Agreed. It can be done.

[Tribe4SF]

1. Your overall academic profile is meaningless unless you tell us what your deviation for football players is. I'm not saying that it might not be excellent, I'm saying that the overall number you're harping on is meaningless to this discussion.

2. Save the Laycock BS for somewhere else. You offhandedly throw out the whole thing this is about which is scholarships (bolded above in your 'throw away' line). If you took the time to understand two things, it may make more sense why Tavani is 'going public' with this or at least leading the charge on the topic: a) This means that the time is now to try to apply whatever pressure can be applied to the league. Part of that includes educating as many people in possible in as high profile a way as possible (e.g. - alums, university officials, league officials, those conducting the study, general fans, etc). The point is basically being made that a key decision that could tremendously impact the future of PL football is taking place right now via whatever the league decides to do or not do about what the study group's recommendations are ... and the more people that realize that the status quo means going backwards v. standing pat, the more likely there is to be some sort of 'noise' to try to influence both the study group as well as PL officials. His timing for finally making a public stand looks right on target when considering that bit of tid. Also, b) Tavani's data shows the Ivies floor has changed with the PL's now higher AND, something the article didn't focus on but is also VERY important, the NEC schools have gone scholly ... both of which make it much, much more difficult to recruit in the Northeast. Now, go and tell me what great 'change' Jimmye Laycock experienced that would correspond with these two things. Now tell me how smart he would have sounded when, if presented with these great changes, he simply shrugged and said 'well, the way it's been is what I signed up for" and then kept you guys on an path towards being uncompetitive. 3 cheers for Tavani as far as I'm concerned.

And regarding the new geography that we need to recruit from - why should that be the case? Why should we be forced to bear the increased costs associated with recruiting nationally due to the fact that we can't compete nearly as well as we used to now that other schools are offering full rides and the Ivies are more lenient? Again, there is no philosophical issue that the league has preventing it from going scholly? Why are they forcing the budgets to either be increased or have a greater % of them allocated to recruiting now that we can't simply live off of the Northeast? Seems to me that this should be a school's choice v. something we're forced into doing.

Who is it that you see forcing Fordham, or Lafayette for that matter, to do anything? Both schools already have a wide footprint for recruiting. Fordhams incoming class has more than half coming from distant states, with 6 from Texas, 3 from Florida, 2 from Illinois, as well as Arizona, Georgia and Ohio. Lafayette has 7 coming in from Florida, as well as kids from Louisiana, Kansas and Michigan. Fans of both schools have been raving about their recruiting classes. Both rosters are dotted with players from distant states. Recruiting travel is obviously nothing new for either school. Again, who's taking away Fordham's choice?

The deviation for W&M is based similarly to the Patriot teams. Athletes must reflect the general student body. Most importantly, a recruit must have a high probability of academic success.

For Fordham, I really don't see the academic floor issue as much of a problem compared to most of the other Patriots. For 2005, a kid with a 1090 SAT was in the mid 50%. That's indicative of a good school, but there are plenty of good athletes out there who would fit in that profile.

Let's hope the Patriot decides to go scholarship. I wouldn't count on that making the regional recruiting competition much easier, however. You'll get a few you wouldn't get otherwise, but you still have to go find the kids who fit with your institution....wherever they may be.

[ngineer]

1. Your overall academic profile is meaningless unless you tell us what your deviation for football players is. I'm not saying that it might not be excellent, I'm saying that the overall number you're harping on is meaningless to this discussion.

2. Save the Laycock BS for somewhere else. You offhandedly throw out the whole thing this is about which is scholarships (bolded above in your 'throw away' line). If you took the time to understand two things, it may make more sense why Tavani is 'going public' with this or at least leading the charge on the topic: a) This means that the time is now to try to apply whatever pressure can be applied to the league. Part of that includes educating as many people in possible in as high profile a way as possible (e.g. - alums, university officials, league officials, those conducting the study, general fans, etc). The point is basically being made that a key decision that could tremendously impact the future of PL football is taking place right now via whatever the league decides to do or not do about what the study group's recommendations are ... and the more people that realize that the status quo means going backwards v. standing pat, the more likely there is to be some sort of 'noise' to try to influence both the study group as well as PL officials. His timing for finally making a public stand looks right on target when considering that bit of tid. Also, b) Tavani's data shows the Ivies floor has changed with the PL's now higher AND, something the article didn't focus on but is also VERY important, the NEC schools have gone scholly ... both of which make it much, much more difficult to recruit in the Northeast. Now, go and tell me what great 'change' Jimmye Laycock experienced that would correspond with these two things. Now tell me how smart he would have sounded when, if presented with these great changes, he simply shrugged and said 'well, the way it's been is what I signed up for" and then kept you guys on an path towards being uncompetitive. 3 cheers for Tavani as far as I'm concerned.

And regarding the new geography that we need to recruit from - why should that be the case? Why should we be forced to bear the increased costs associated with recruiting nationally due to the fact that we can't compete nearly as well as we used to now that other schools are offering full rides and the Ivies are more lenient? Again, there is no philosophical issue that the league has preventing it from going scholly? Why are they forcing the budgets to either be increased or have a greater % of them allocated to recruiting now that we can't simply live off of the Northeast? Seems to me that this should be a school's choice v. something we're forced into doing.

When I played at Lehigh 80% came from PA, NJ and NY followed by a smattering from MD and OH. Now, we are getting kids from almost 25 states. Since we cannot take a lot of kids today that we could years ago because of a higher academic profile, we have to go farther afield to get the combined quality student, but also those that qualify for a grant in aid.
A number of people are curious as to why certain Lehigh Valley players aren't being pursued or offered by Lehigh or Lafayette--it's because they can't get admitted.

[Andy]

I'm not philosophically opposed to scholarships if and when there is consensus. It doesn't appear that's the case right now.

DFW, no offense, but with GT not being a member of the PL for basketball perhaps you're not familiar with how bball scholarships came about in the league. If you were, the thought that LC should not proceed in it's own best interests but rather wait for a consensus would seem laughable to you.

Excellent posts by youwouldno, fordham and others leave me little to add. I would just caution about tribe's minimizing the effects of scholarships on local recruiting. Economic conditions around here--metro area salaries and huge equity build up in even modest homes--makes qualifying for need based aid impossible. Who wants to saddle their kid or themselves with tens of thousands of dollars in dept when they could go A-10 or NEC for nothing? LC took an all-time low two Jersey recruits while Monmouth, with schollies, went hog wild. With scholarships we'll kick butt in Jersey IMO.

[Pard94]

God, it must be the offseason...cause we're talking academic index again...:( How long till summer camp?

[DFW HOYA]

But with GT not being a member of the PL for basketball perhaps you're not familiar with how bball scholarships came about in the league. If you were, the thought that LC should not proceed in it's own best interests but rather wait for a consensus would seem laughable to you.

Understand the context, but that doesn't mean that consensus is not worth pursuing.

[DetroitFlyer]

My Flyers go after top students AND football players on a nationwide basis. We just landed a kid with a 4.0 GPA that was originally leaning towards the Ivy League. My guess, is that with a 4.0 GPA and decent ACT, he was able to get a better aid package at Dayton than at the Ivy schools and he is local to the area so his parents will be able to see him play much more easily.

We also just landed a RB from all the way down in Florida. Decent HS grades, but not Ivy material. Again, I'm betting that his aid package at Dayton was probably good enough for us to land him over other schools that offered him a slot.

Keep in mind that we get these kids without any athletic scholarships, just like the rest of the PFL....

Getting back to the PL, it seems to be a given that academic standards are going to remain a challenge, so I'm still completely confused how "scholarships" make any difference at all.... Most of what I read is that the top teams all offer enough aid now to be at a 50+ scholarship equivalent level, and I think I have read before that some PL teams can play FBS teams and have it count for the FBS team as a win for bowl eligibility. If true, that would mean that the NCAA considers the aid at the PL school(s) equivalent to the rest of scholarship FCS....

So what gives? If the PL is ALREADY providing aid similar to the scholarship FCS conferences, AND the league wants to maintain it's academic integrity, why would "scholarships" offer any benefit at all? I mean if a kid is an average student, and he gets a partial scholly to play at a NEC school, how does that hurt the PL? Odds are he would not get into the PL school anyway, "scholarship" or not.... Same for a PFL school, unless his parents have the cash and want to pay to bill. ( This does occur more than you would think because the PFL schools appeal to many kids and parents for reasons other than football, and many kids think that their playing time opportunity might be better at a PFL school as compared to other schools. To me, this is where the PL might be losing kids to the PFL or NEC or MAAC.

[Franks Tanks]

My Flyers go after top students AND football players on a nationwide basis. We just landed a kid with a 4.0 GPA that was originally leaning towards the Ivy League. My guess, is that with a 4.0 GPA and decent ACT, he was able to get a better aid package at Dayton than at the Ivy schools and he is local to the area so his parents will be able to see him play much more easily.

We also just landed a RB from all the way down in Florida. Decent HS grades, but not Ivy material. Again, I'm betting that his aid package at Dayton was probably good enough for us to land him over other schools that offered him a slot.

Keep in mind that we get these kids without any athletic scholarships, just like the rest of the PFL....

Getting back to the PL, it seems to be a given that academic standards are going to remain a challenge, so I'm still completely confused how "scholarships" make any difference at all.... Most of what I read is that the top teams all offer enough aid now to be at a 50+ scholarship equivalent level, and I think I have read before that some PL teams can play FBS teams and have it count for the FBS team as a win for bowl eligibility. If true, that would mean that the NCAA considers the aid at the PL school(s) equivalent to the rest of scholarship FCS....

So what gives? If the PL is ALREADY providing aid similar to the scholarship FCS conferences, AND the league wants to maintain it's academic integrity, why would "scholarships" offer any benefit at all? I mean if a kid is an average student, and he gets a partial scholly to play at a NEC school, how does that hurt the PL? Odds are he would not get into the PL school anyway, "scholarship" or not.... Same for a PFL school, unless his parents have the cash and want to pay to bill. ( This does occur more than you would think because the PFL schools appeal to many kids and parents for reasons other than football, and many kids think that their playing time opportunity might be better at a PFL school as compared to other schools. To me, this is where the PL might be losing kids to the PFL or NEC or MAAC.


Quite sinply our financial aid is need based, therefore a kid who comes from a solid middle class family may only be awarded about 50% aid and therefore forcing him to pay close to 20k a year himself. Scholarships will allow us to get so many of those kids we may now lose to Nove or W&M or the academies or now the NEC. A kid may really want to go to Lafayette or Colgate nut when they are going to be paying out their ass to go their, they will choose Northeastren or Monmouth everytime for free. Right now we have to recruit kids who are very rich, so paying tuition is no object, or fairly poor so that thay qualify for a bunch of aid and pretty much go for free. We are getting killed by the middle class kids who arent recieving enough aid, and asking them to pay an extra 20k a year to go to Lafayette or Bucknell has been challenging. Taviani is also saying the Ivies dont have this problem as much as people are willing to fork over the additional money for the IVY name.

[DetroitFlyer]

But, I'm still a bit confused. The PFL does not offer any athletic aid for football, only "need based aid" available to all students. So, if the PL only offers "need based aid" as well, what is the difference? Maybe the PL can offer "need based aid for athletes" somehow? Even so, this seems like splitting hairs.... One thing seems certain, whatever the PL does is viewed to be much more like the scholly FCS schools as compared to the PFL or MAAC....

[Franks Tanks]

But, I'm still a bit confused. The PFL does not offer any athletic aid for football, only "need based aid" available to all students. So, if the PL only offers "need based aid" as well, what is the difference? Maybe the PL can offer "need based aid for athletes" somehow? Even so, this seems like splitting hairs.... One thing seems certain, whatever the PL does is viewed to be much more like the scholly FCS schools as compared to the PFL or MAAC....


Our arguement is that we spend more on Football than many a-10 schools for example, and we want to compete at the highest level given the commitment we make. Its a farce that we spend so much but call in "non-scholarship", Taviani is saying might as well get the maximum return on our investment and just offer scholarships as it will attract better athletes and students. We will draw some students away from the Ivies and Academies if we have scholarships, and we will get smart kids who can play.

[Fordham]

[/B]Who is it that you see forcing Fordham, or Lafayette for that matter, to do anything? Both schools already have a wide footprint for recruiting. Fordhams incoming class has more than half coming from distant states, with 6 from Texas, 3 from Florida, 2 from Illinois, as well as Arizona, Georgia and Ohio. Lafayette has 7 coming in from Florida, as well as kids from Louisiana, Kansas and Michigan. Fans of both schools have been raving about their recruiting classes. Both rosters are dotted with players from distant states. Recruiting travel is obviously nothing new for either school. Again, who's taking away Fordham's choice?
Part of the reason we are bringing in such a diverse class, from a geographic perspective, is because we're being forced to recruit nationally now that the Northeast is so tight due to the Ivy/NEC squeeze (not the only reason but certainly an important one imo). What you cite above in terms of our incoming class actually reinforces my point v. taking away from it. I will also reinforce engineer's response in that throughout the 80's to the early 2000's our class was almost entirely made up of kids from the Northeast. The exception to that was success Clawson had in getting FL kids in here but that was done entirely due to his belief that those kids were better prepared to play at this level as opposed to him thinking that if he didn't expand the reach there wouldn't be enough kids in the Northeast to get the job done. Now that a) net worth's have gone up so much, much of which is not due to disposable income but to property values <nod to andy> and b) there are more and more school's offering full rides for football, there simply are not enough kids in the Northeast to serve every PL school's needs any longer.

Second, my response about "being forced" was more in terms of the thoughts expressed by DFW here but that I've seen voiced frequently when we discuss the topic here and elsewhere:
No, there's a fourth: work harder. There are a lot more than 200 kids capable of playing PL or Ivy football and coaches like Tavani have to start recruiting more kids outside the Northeast. I agree with him completely in terms of what he wrote but my post again is just to ask 'why'? Why should our programs be put in a situation where the move to recruit nationally is not solely a particular school's choice but something that's now required to remain competitive since the Northeast has gotten so crowded? Recruiting nationally costs more than just recruiting the Northeast. I haven't seen any PL budget numbers reflect these increased expenditures so my guess is that it's all coming from the same pot of money but now some of it that used to be used for something else is now used up in increased recruiting budgets.

Now, if there is no longer any philosophical objection to scholarships in the PL, why not allow them for football and then allow each school to decide whether or not they want to recruit from the Northeast or go national? I would still hope that we would go national but to me there's a difference between us doing so proactively v. reactively.


Getting back to the PL, it seems to be a given that academic standards are going to remain a challenge, so I'm still completely confused how "scholarships" make any difference at all.... Most of what I read is that the top teams all offer enough aid now to be at a 50+ scholarship equivalent level, and I think I have read before that some PL teams can play FBS teams and have it count for the FBS team as a win for bowl eligibility. If true, that would mean that the NCAA considers the aid at the PL school(s) equivalent to the rest of scholarship FCS....

So what gives? If the PL is ALREADY providing aid similar to the scholarship FCS conferences, AND the league wants to maintain it's academic integrity, why would "scholarships" offer any benefit at all? I mean if a kid is an average student, and he gets a partial scholly to play at a NEC school, how does that hurt the PL? Odds are he would not get into the PL school anyway, "scholarship" or not....
Flyer, the example you're using is not the one that would impact the PL. It's the kid who actually does get in to PL schools but whose parents choose the NEC school because they get a full ride versus paying $20K (or some significant amount) a year to go PL since they don't qualify for need based aid or only qualify for a small portion of it. This is no knock on NEC schools, just stating that our academic allure is not consistently good enough to warrant a big out of pocket check every year when they could get a full ride to one of them. I believe we would do very well if competing on a level playing field for those kids (wouldn't get all of them but having a full ride from a higher rated academic institution is pretty compelling imo).

Look, scholarships may not be a panacea but there's no doubt they help and the reason is because it's simply a numbers game. Think of all kids out there who have grades that are good enough to get into a PL school regardless of income. What the PL is doing today is segmenting a portion of those kids, the ones that come from the poorest families, and allowing us to compete on what is basically a level playing field for those kids since we can offer need based aid that is on par with with a full scholarship from an NEC or A10 school. We do pretty well with that group. Don't win them all but get our fair share.

The larger segment, however, are the kids who come from middle and upper class families (again, it's just a numbers game). Those parents may receive some aid or no aid at all, both of which results in having to pay a significant annual tuition check to have their kid come to play at a PL school v. a full ride offer at an NEC or A10 school. Do we sometimes get kids to still come to school to play for us from these segments despite having to write a big check every year? Yes. Are we competing on a level playing field for them versus schools who are offering full rides? No. Imo, andy nailed this response above but the only thing I'd take issue with is that, for the most part, the wealthy didn't get wealthy by making bad financial decisions. Paying $20K or whatever or more per year when their kid has a full ride to another school is something most parents will not opt for, regardless of how wealthy they are. Again, there are exceptions but in terms of a 'general rule' I believe holds true. In that example, as well, consider us competing with an oustanding academic institution like W&M, 'Nova or Delaware who is offering the kid a full ride. The parents have to cough up a big nut every year to send them to a PL school or they get a full ride to an outstanding institution - what would any sane person do? Now, will schollies get us every one of those kids who is also looking at one of those great schools? Of course not ... but we'd get more than we're getting now since telling them they have to pay a big check every year ends the discussion. (note that this also does not take into account the increased net worth of many families due to skyrocketing property values that may not help a family pay for school but could make them receive much less aid to help them).

The other catch in all of this is that a) simply being able to recruit all potential student-athletes v. just the poor ones and b) <a bit controversial perhaps> the wealthier the family, typically the better the academic profile ... means that we should be able to recruit better students to play for our teams as well. Oddly, then, there is upside for the professor who may think that "no scholarship" is more in line with the academic ideals of our institutions. Again, since there is no longer a philosophical objection to it from the league's standpoint, I just don't see why this isn't a no-brainer.

Finally, I asked DFW this in a fordhamfans thread but will throw it out here as well. Why can't the PL just move to scholarships at the current funding levels? If Lafayette is currently funding at 55 equivalencies, why not give them 55 scholarships to use? Georgetown is funding at 30, give them 30. I'm not aware of any reason that we need to have 63 on the table or else not do schollies and I'm also not aware of any reason why scholarship levels needs to be consistent throughout the league. Keep it separate. Allow Georgetown to use whatever monies they have in the way they see fit v. requiring them to only use it on a smaller segment of potential student-athletes as it is today.

[DetroitFlyer]

I do not believe the NEC to be a threat to the PL at all. At most, the NEC is granting 30 scholarships. It is a virtual certainty that those 30 schollys are split among many players. A partial scholly to Albany, versus an opportunity to obtain a premier education at say Fordham for about the same price or maybe a bit more is not going to be an impediment. Granted, if a NEC school does offer a full scholly, you may lose that kid, but overall, those are small numbers. USD managed to play at a scholarship level last year without any athletic scholarships. Given the "prestige" of the PL schools, and the good aid packages, I simply see this as maybe a bit more challenging for recruiters, but not something that will lead to the demise of the PL as a decent football conference. It is also the reason that I believe that a PFL team or a MAAC team can build a good team, capable of competing with ANYONE, in any given season. I doubt the the PL or the PFL or MAAC will ever build an FCS "dynasty" team, like ASU might be now, but every once in a while, a special team from one of these conferences can hang with anybody.

[DFW HOYA]

Finally, I asked DFW this in a fordhamfans thread but will throw it out here as well. Why can't the PL just move to scholarships at the current funding levels? If Lafayette is currently funding at 55 equivalencies, why not give them 55 scholarships to use? Georgetown is funding at 30, give them 30. I'm not aware of any reason that we need to have 63 on the table or else not do schollies and I'm also not aware of any reason why scholarship levels needs to be consistent throughout the league. Keep it separate. Allow Georgetown to use whatever monies they have in the way they see fit v. requiring them to only use it on a smaller segment of potential student-athletes as it is today.

(First, I don't know Georgetown even has 30.)

In theory, your idea would work, but in practice there may be problems. Some schools may be able to convert the equivalencies right to grants, others may not be able to (or choose not to). Also, there is the issue regarding how scholarships are applied. In the NCAA, offering any grant aid is considered a "counter" for scholarship purposes, so a team could never have more than 63 on a team getting grant aid, no matter if it was $100 or $44,000.

When I discuss the word "consensus", it's not an all or nothing , e.g., everyone at 0 or everyone at 63. But if you can't get the presidents at Holy Cross, Bucknell, Georgetown, or even Fordham to agree with the Tavani argument, what then for the league? Three or four teams isn't a league anymore.

The schools have to decide among themselves what a competitive balance is mindful of costs and competition. Would the Ivy League cut ties with scheduling scholarship teams? Perhaps. If that's still important to the PL presidents, it's another factor to weigh as well.

[Fordham]

I do not believe the NEC to be a threat to the PL at all. At most, the NEC is granting 30 scholarships. It is a virtual certainty that those 30 schollys are split among many players. A partial scholly to Albany, versus an opportunity to obtain a premier education at say Fordham for about the same price or maybe a bit more is not going to be an impediment. Granted, if a NEC school does offer a full scholly, you may lose that kid, but overall, those are small numbers.

I disagree, flyer. get access to a rivals account and you'll see many, many more kids than previous years who either considered Monmouth along with other PL or A10 schools or outright chose them over PL and A10 ones. They really stood out to me this past year and it might just be because they recruit most heavily in NJ, which is typically right in a PL program's wheelhouse (particularly Laf & Lehigh). That is a significant development. Is it the only thing that's making recruiting more difficult? No. Is it a factor? Absolutely imo.


USD managed to play at a scholarship level last year without any athletic scholarships. Given the "prestige" of the PL schools, and the good aid packages, I simply see this as maybe a bit more challenging for recruiters, but not something that will lead to the demise of the PL as a decent football conference. It is also the reason that I believe that a PFL team or a MAAC team can build a good team, capable of competing with ANYONE, in any given season. I doubt the the PL or the PFL or MAAC will ever build an FCS "dynasty" team, like ASU might be now, but every once in a while, a special team from one of these conferences can hang with anybody.

Here I'll go back to Franks Tanks' comment a few posts ago. In the PL, most of our programs spend as much, if not more than, all the full scholarship conferences out there, so why shouldn't we expect the same return on our investment that they do?

If Dayton's football budget matched or surpassed most A10 school's budgets, shouldn't you expect to be able to compete with them v. just have a 'lightning in a bottle' type run every once in a while?

[youwouldno]

Fordham made a good point about recruiting. Recruiting nationally is, in a lot of ways, a sign of weakness rather than a strong point. The most important aspect of recruiting, especially at the FCS level, is talent evaluation. Recruiting regionally makes it a lot easier to do that as opposed to recruiting all across the country (considering budget and time limitations).

The main thing that surprises me is that the PL isn't spurred more by the beatings the Ivy hands them.

[Fordham]

(First, I don't know Georgetown even has 30.) I should have been clearer - my 'if' in front of Lafayette's example was supposed to apply to G-town as well. More of a 'whatever the current number is'.


In theory, your idea would work, but in practice there may be problems. Some schools may be able to convert the equivalencies right to grants, others may not be able to (or choose not to). Also, there is the issue regarding how scholarships are applied. In the NCAA, offering any grant aid is considered a "counter" for scholarship purposes, so a team could never have more than 63 on a team getting grant aid, no matter if it was $100 or $44,000. Candidly, DFW, I just don't know and not even sure I follow. One thing I do know is that the 'choose not to' option is something I think should be allowed. If HC has their philosophical or Title IX or whatever problems with it - let them continue doing what they're doing. If Colgate wants to spend their significant budget in the way that they see fit, let them. Is that any different from how they enacted the hoops' schollies? If memory serves, the league competed for a while with Lafayette not offering while playing in a league against scholarship teams in Bucknell & HC. Seems like it gave some time for Lafayette to see how it played out and then decide to make the move at a later date. If they had waited for league-wide consensus, would Bucknell ever have had their "One <or two> Shining Moment<s>"? Someone correct me here if wrong since I'm not incredibly well versed in PL hoop's history but I think that's correct.


When I discuss the word "consensus", it's not an all or nothing , e.g., everyone at 0 or everyone at 63. But if you can't get the presidents at Holy Cross, Bucknell, Georgetown, or even Fordham to agree with the Tavani argument, what then for the league? Three or four teams isn't a league anymore. 1. From my personal conversations at Fordham (which includes our President), I'm led to believe that there is much more consensus on this, with the one exception being HC. I understand that this is anecdotal but mention it nonetheless.

b. Allow me one poor analogy/oversimplification. Before I had kids I remember a friend who had two and was well onto 3 said 'if you wait for the perfect moment to have them, you'll never have them' and a thought like that keeps gnawing at me during this discussion. Every single ancillary issue should not need to be resolved prior to the league making a move on scholarships.

I'd prefer seeing us go towards this in a way that permits as much freedom of choice as possible AND maintains our current mix of league members. This way, we can let the impact of that decision play out and see if we've become more attractive to schools who can increase our academic profile by affiliating with the league such as 'Nova or Richmond. If we find that it didn't make a difference, you at least still have your same membership in tact and can also make decisions on schools who may not add as much immediate impact but who are improving and may also be all-sports members (e.g.- Marist). Does anyone really think HC will pack up and leave the entire league if they are granted the flexibility to keep doing things as they are now?

Thirdly, let's not tie overall program funding in with scholarships. This is part of 2 above but I just think it's superfluous to the scholarship issue. When you reference competitiveness below (and I know it's always been your hot button issue given the huge funding gap between Gtown and other PL programs), how will offering scholarships change that? Better yet, how will NOT offering scholarships change that imbalance? Personally, I want you guys in the league regardless of how you fund. I'd prefer to see you guys get on par with the rest of us since I think you'd be positioned great and could be the sleeping giant that we all see (AND a collosal pain the a*s to play every year). But if your school chooses to put itself at a competitive disadvantage - so what? I still think that what you add to the PL in terms of academic reputation is worth it (but that may be because I'm biased towards our rivals). Again, regardless, let's not mix up league-wide funding balance with the scholarship discussion.


The schools have to decide among themselves what a competitive balance is mindful of costs and competition. Would the Ivy League cut ties with scheduling scholarship teams? Perhaps. If that's still important to the PL presidents, it's another factor to weigh as well. Good point and one that clearly should be taken into consideration. I think the counter is that for the league as a whole (and unfortunately Fordham is the biggest example of this) the founding principle of having our schedule be almost exclusively PL or Ivy has gone out the window due to the Ivies, not the PL. Now that you add their move to 2 for 1's only and the question is how much value should be put on it when there is much less reciprocation than there was in the past? Personally, I love the Ivy affiliation but not in such an imbalanced way. If there would be a return to a PL & Ivy-only relationship that works both ways, I would support it (not that this adds much to the argument). However, if it's a relationship as it currently stands (2 for 1's and some members still having a lot of difficulty scheduling them), then I'd be fine with seeing it go. Regardless, though, I do think that needs to be part of the discussion (and I assume it is).

[Go...gate]

DetroitFlyer, would you guys consider being in the PL? (I'm only half-kidding - you have a distinguished program of long-standing)

[LBPop]

We are getting killed by the middle class kids who arent recieving enough aid, and asking them to pay an extra 20k a year to go to Lafayette or Bucknell has been challenging. Taviani is also saying the Ivies dont have this problem as much as people are willing to fork over the additional money for the IVY name.

I can probably speak to this as well as anyone on this board. LBMom and I faced this very issue three years ago. According to the "non-scholarship" formula, we were entitled to no financial aid. Well, I can tell you that despite the precision of that ingenious formula, paying for Georgetown has had a huge impact on our lives. And Tavani is right, the only schools that we felt were worth that expense were the Ivys (and Georgetown)...so that's who LBKid visited. Other PL schools invited him, but with no offense intended to anyone else, he wanted the "name" degree and that's what we are paying for. However, if Lafayette, Bucknell or any of the other outstanding PL schools could have offered him some serious money, you can bet we would have listened.

We are fortunate enough that we can make the sacrifice and still live our lives, but I fully understand the problem. Even if Georgetown went "scholarship" but with no additional money, it would allow the coaches to spend it where it would help them the most. Frankly, I suspect that if that happened at Georgetown a lot of Alumni who hesitate to pay for new lockers, might pony up to fund additional scholarships to attract more talent and win.

[Tribe4SF]

In the NCAA, offering any grant aid is considered a "counter" for scholarship purposes, so a team could never have more than 63 on a team getting grant aid, no matter if it was $100 or $44,000.
.

That's not correct. FCS schools are allowed to have up to 85 players receiving scolarship aid. A partial scholarship is calculated to be a percentage of a full scholarship. For public schools like W&M, the monetary value of the scholarship makes no difference. Half an in-state scholarship counts the same as half an out-of-state scholarship. The total full-scholarship count may not exceed 63. W&M's "counters" last year were around 68. JMU's, I believe, was close to 80. They have made extensive use of partials the last few years.

[DetroitFlyer]

I have heard "rumblings" over the years that the PL would be a good fit for UD Football IF it was not all on the east coast. For Dayton, every road game would be a plane trip. At least in the PFL we can bus to Valpo, Butler, Morehead State, and Davidson - too long IMHO. I think that if Dayton were to increase the profile of football, ( as in spend more money ), the PL would be great, but because of geography, it will probably never happen.... We are not far from Georgetown in our current spending, ( $700,000 to $900,000 per year ), but getting to $3,000,000+ per year would take some doing.... At this point, I'm just hoping we can play a PL team every year. Good start with Fordham over the next few seasons....

[Franks Tanks]

I do not believe the NEC to be a threat to the PL at all. At most, the NEC is granting 30 scholarships. It is a virtual certainty that those 30 schollys are split among many players. A partial scholly to Albany, versus an opportunity to obtain a premier education at say Fordham for about the same price or maybe a bit more is not going to be an impediment. Granted, if a NEC school does offer a full scholly, you may lose that kid, but overall, those are small numbers. USD managed to play at a scholarship level last year without any athletic scholarships. Given the "prestige" of the PL schools, and the good aid packages, I simply see this as maybe a bit more challenging for recruiters, but not something that will lead to the demise of the PL as a decent football conference. It is also the reason that I believe that a PFL team or a MAAC team can build a good team, capable of competing with ANYONE, in any given season. I doubt the the PL or the PFL or MAAC will ever build an FCS "dynasty" team, like ASU might be now, but every once in a while, a special team from one of these conferences can hang with anybody.

I totally understand and agree with what you are saying regarding the NEC. However, Taviani has claimed that this year we have lost a few prized recruites to the NEC, Monmouth in particular I believe, amd he sees this trend as continuing and further limting our pool. Bad enough we have to fight and lose to the Ivies and A-10 in recruiting battles constatntly but now we have a new threat in the NEC. Also I undertand you point that we can compete against the big boys but not consistently, but when you spending more that 3 mil a year on football and getting whipped by the scholarships schools and Ivies it pretty much sucks. The survival of the PL is and probably wil lnever be in doubt, But recently we have been quite successful competing in the playoffs, and being so close to more has stoked the fire and incresed our desire to truely compete on the national stage. Also I have always very much admired the Dayton program, you always seem to field competitive, hardworking teams filled with talented and smart players. All done with a pretty small budget...certainly impressive. But for us in the PL it would be nice to land those few difference makers every years and take our competition to the next level. We certainly dont want to sell out or embarress the great situation we have going, but it would be nice to pull a kid away from Princeton or an A-10 every once in a while with the lure of scholarships and a great education. And we can do this with the same budget and maintaining if not improving the type of students we are brining in.

[LeopardFan04]

I can probably speak to this as well as anyone on this board. LBMom and I faced this very issue three years ago. According to the "non-scholarship" formula, we were entitled to no financial aid. Well, I can tell you that despite the precision of that ingenious formula, paying for Georgetown has had a huge impact on our lives. And Tavani is right, the only schools that we felt were worth that expense were the Ivys (and Georgetown)...so that's who LBKid visited. Other PL schools invited him, but with no offense intended to anyone else, he wanted the "name" degree and that's what we are paying for. However, if Lafayette, Bucknell or any of the other outstanding PL schools could have offered him some serious money, you can bet we would have listened.

We are fortunate enough that we can make the sacrifice and still live our lives, but I fully understand the problem. Even if Georgetown went "scholarship" but with no additional money, it would allow the coaches to spend it where it would help them the most. Frankly, I suspect that if that happened at Georgetown a lot of Alumni who hesitate to pay for new lockers, might pony up to fund additional scholarships to attract more talent and win.


Great points LBPop...thanks for sharing your family's experience with all of this...

[DFW HOYA]

FCS schools are allowed to have up to 85 players receiving scolarship aid. A partial scholarship is calculated to be a percentage of a full scholarship.

Correction noted--thanks for the clarification.

[letsgopards04]

Who said anything about football players and SAT scores? Your scores can't have been too good, considering your reading ability.

If you're implying that W&M has an easier time admitting football prospects than Lafayette does, you're wrong. The relevant comparison is the academic profiles of the schools to which players are being recruited. That, and the current coaches' propensity to whine about it. Tavani's argument that the academic floor of the Patriot League schools exceeds that of the Ivy League is laughable, and I can't believe the writer didn't challenge that assertion. The only school in the Patriot with a profile approaching the Ivies is Georgetown.

We are talking the academic floor for athletes not general population. And yes they are different.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just a heads-up, later today I am planning to make an attempt to tackle this thorny issue later on my blog.

[Fordham]

looking forward to it LFN. Go get 'em.

[Andy]

I do not believe the NEC to be a threat to the PL at all.....A partial scholly to Albany, versus an opportunity to obtain a premier education at say Fordham for about the same price or maybe a bit more is not going to be an impediment.

Flyer, please consider these numbers: an in-state s/ath receiving a $10k partial would pay approx. $2900 per year to attend Albany, out of state approx. $9200/yr. That same kid receiving $10k in need based aid would still have a $32,000 nut to pay Fordham every year. Huge difference, obviously.

On the effects of scholarships: In 1986, when the non-scholarship Patriot League was formed, Holy Cross' scholarship (and I assume red-shirt) players were allowed to exhaust their eligibility. In the ensuing six seasons, HC won 5 championships with a combined league record of 25-1. (LC, '88) Since then they've played to a winning percentage of .295.

When HC demanded and got bball scholarships with s/aths entering in the fall of '98, they went from a league record of 3-9 to a championship at 10-2 two seasons later. Since then a non-schol team has not finished higher than third.

BTW, Tavani has said LC lost five '06 recruits to NEC scholarships. No word on this year, although a quick look at Rivals shows PL offered players like Dave Ogden and Chris Mastrangelo choosing NEC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Part I is up. Comparing the Ivy and Patriot when it comes to athletic recruiting.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

[LeopardFan04]

nice writeup LFN

[Go...gate]

Well done.

[Tribe4SF]

Part I is up. Comparing the Ivy and Patriot when it comes to athletic recruiting.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

Why can't you reveal the AI formula? It's different for every school? Unwritten agreement among the Ivies? Sounds like the Patriot "AI" is also an unwritten agreement, and certainly varies among the members. Most schools have an AI of some sort. As discussed earlier, if a kid is down under 1100 SAT, he will need a strong GPA to counterweight it.

There sure is alot of secrecy around this issue. It's fine to push for scholarships for Patriot football, but the "cloak and dagger" approach smells a bit like a hustle. Tavani should just lay the numbers out there. With all the responses from PL folks about "what's W&M's AI", no one has stated what any of the Patriot's AIs are. What's the floor for the PL and Ivy, and how is it known?

"Playing the Game", by the way, is no news to me. I was recruited by Dartmouth in 1966, and to say they were creative would be an understatement.

[Go...gate]

Why can't you reveal the AI formula? It's different for every school? Unwritten agreement among the Ivies? Sounds like the Patriot "AI" is also an unwritten agreement, and certainly varies among the members. Most schools have an AI of some sort. As discussed earlier, if a kid is down under 1100 SAT, he will need a strong GPA to counterweight it.

There sure is alot of secrecy around this issue. It's fine to push for scholarships for Patriot football, but the "cloak and dagger" approach smells a bit like a hustle. Tavani should just lay the numbers out there. With all the responses from PL folks about "what's W&M's AI", no one has stated what any of the Patriot's AIs are. What's the floor for the PL and Ivy, and how is it known?

"Playing the Game", by the way, is no news to me. I was recruited by Dartmouth in 1966, and to say they were creative would be an understatement.

As much as I love this debate, I never want to lose sight of the fact that WE'RE ALL FINE SCHOOLS (YOU TOO, W&M, WOFFORD, FURMAN, VILLANOVA, DELAWARE et al.) AND ANYONE WHO GETS THE OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE AN EDUCATION IN OUR INSTITUTIONS IS GETTING A GREAT BENEFIT!

[Neighbor2]

Yada, yada, yada . . .

All of this continued discussion about Lehigh football and its seasonal performance v. difficulty of enrollment is becoming a bit tiring.

Yes, Lehigh is an academic institution first. Good for you. However, this holier than thou attitude that continues to be put forth is becoming tedious. If you decide to play at the level of most persons who post here, do what you have to do to become a partner in this arena, otherwise, either shut-up about your lack of success or move to a lower classification.

My goodness, it's the same whine every year. Too tough to take? Sorry.

This opinion is being expressed by someone who has attended Lehigh games for 45 years, has provided funding to the Lehigh Athletics Partnership, etc. I enjoy attending and am pleased when Lehigh has success, but give up this usual posture . . . please! It serves no positve purpose in advancing Lehigh's acceptance.

Fire away.

[ngineer]

I don't see this thread as 'Lehigh whining'---it's an annual discussion amongst all the PLers to fill the void of winter, but having just come through the recruiting period and realizing the unique situation we all are in, not just Lehigh. I agree that there shouldn't be whining. We've chosen to play at this level so we should do the best we can with what we have. However, I don't see yearning to see what we could do with regular scholarships, as basketball and wrestling now have, as whining. I see it as wanting to get better and reach for a higher level of performance. Schools such as Stanford, Notre Dame, Rice, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, have not had their names besmirched for going the scholarship route. Indeed, our wrestling team has improved immensely over the past 10 years since scholarships were introduced--and I mean both in terms of academics and performance on the mat.

[LeopardFan04]

Fellow Leopards: Have you seen the letter that appears in the new Alumni News regarding scholarships...here's a part of it for everyone...I disagree with this scenario (I think most here would since we're all fairly "pro-athletics" or we wouldn't spend time on here)...

"Starting out in four sports, the scholarships will spread like a virus. Each sport will be demanding its share. President Weiss will see control of athletics slide over from the president to the athletic director. In time, Lafayette will have a two-tier student body: athletes and students."

The other part of the letter references the book Colleges That Change Lives: 40 Schools That Will Change the Way You Think about Colleges and states that "well-known schools such as Goucher, Antioch, Earlham, St. John's and Reed plus 35 others" are good schools and don't give scholarships. While I don't doubt the academic prowess of these schools, I don't consider them to be peers, not in the way that Lehigh, Bucknell, and Colgate are, as well as other schools like William and Mary for instance. I think Division I athletics give the school visibility that we'd otherwise not have. :twocents: :twocents:

[Go...gate]

Fellow Leopards: Have you seen the letter that appears in the new Alumni News regarding scholarships...here's a part of it for everyone...I disagree with this scenario (I think most here would since we're all fairly "pro-athletics" or we wouldn't spend time on here)...

"Starting out in four sports, the scholarships will spread like a virus. Each sport will be demanding its share. President Weiss will see control of athletics slide over from the president to the athletic director. In time, Lafayette will have a two-tier student body: athletes and students."

The other part of the letter references the book Colleges That Change Lives: 40 Schools That Will Change the Way You Think about Colleges and states that "well-known schools such as Goucher, Antioch, Earlham, St. John's and Reed plus 35 others" are good schools and don't give scholarships. While I don't doubt the academic prowess of these schools, I don't consider them to be peers, not in the way that Lehigh, Bucknell, and Colgate are, as well as other schools like William and Mary for instance. I think Division I athletics give the school visibility that we'd otherwise not have. :twocents: :twocents:

Sounds like Art Rothkopf wrote that letter.

[Fordham]

Fellow Leopards: Have you seen the letter that appears in the new Alumni News regarding scholarships...here's a part of it for everyone...I disagree with this scenario (I think most here would since we're all fairly "pro-athletics" or we wouldn't spend time on here)...

"Starting out in four sports, the scholarships will spread like a virus. Each sport will be demanding its share. President Weiss will see control of athletics slide over from the president to the athletic director. In time, Lafayette will have a two-tier student body: athletes and students."

The other part of the letter references the book Colleges That Change Lives: 40 Schools That Will Change the Way You Think about Colleges and states that "well-known schools such as Goucher, Antioch, Earlham, St. John's and Reed plus 35 others" are good schools and don't give scholarships. While I don't doubt the academic prowess of these schools, I don't consider them to be peers, not in the way that Lehigh, Bucknell, and Colgate are, as well as other schools like William and Mary for instance. I think Division I athletics give the school visibility that we'd otherwise not have. :twocents: :twocents:

well that's disturbing.

what's the take on this, pard fans?

is this a positive where a minority group of alums are reacting to newfound and clear administration support for the idea of scholarships ...

or a negative whereby the article represents not only more than a minority of alums but also is a rationale/viewpoint supported by the administration?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"Starting out in four sports, the scholarships will spread like a virus. Each sport will be demanding its share. President Weiss will see control of athletics slide over from the president to the athletic director. In time, Lafayette will have a two-tier student body: athletes and students."

:rolleyes: Reactionist nonsense. I'm sure this has already happened at Bucknell or Holy Cross. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I'd love for this letter-writer cite some evidence of an academically-challenging school that has offered scholarships and gone to the dogs as a result. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


The other part of the letter references the book Colleges That Change Lives: 40 Schools That Will Change the Way You Think about Colleges

I think the letter-writer might want to reconsider that one: look at this reader's comment from Amazon.com:


In a nutshell, Pope espouses that liberal arts undergraduate education in the Ivies is faltering, if not failing, but America has plenty of great liberal arts educational centers... If you think Ivy (for undergraduate) is the answer before reading these three books, you may discover a change of opinion after reading these books.

So now Lafayette can no longer look to Harvard, Yale, Princeton as contemporaries and look instead to McDaniel, Ursinus and Clark as contemporaries? xlolx I'd think Rothkopf choked on his cheerios when he read this.

[letsgopards04]

Fellow Leopards: Have you seen the letter that appears in the new Alumni News regarding scholarships...here's a part of it for everyone...I disagree with this scenario (I think most here would since we're all fairly "pro-athletics" or we wouldn't spend time on here)...

"Starting out in four sports, the scholarships will spread like a virus. Each sport will be demanding its share. President Weiss will see control of athletics slide over from the president to the athletic director. In time, Lafayette will have a two-tier student body: athletes and students."

The other part of the letter references the book Colleges That Change Lives: 40 Schools That Will Change the Way You Think about Colleges and states that "well-known schools such as Goucher, Antioch, Earlham, St. John's and Reed plus 35 others" are good schools and don't give scholarships. While I don't doubt the academic prowess of these schools, I don't consider them to be peers, not in the way that Lehigh, Bucknell, and Colgate are, as well as other schools like William and Mary for instance. I think Division I athletics give the school visibility that we'd otherwise not have. :twocents: :twocents:


Good post boss,

I must have missed this when I was checking out the alumni notes. This definately sounds like Rothkopf. You can have scholarships and high quality students. All a scholarship is is a form of merit based aid. The smartest of the smart get merit scholarships. I have no problem with a gifted athlete getting a scholarship to play football as long as he/she has the grades to get in. It is tough as potential college athlete passing up a full ride to a scholly school to simply get your need met and be left with 20-30k to pay. This article shows the ignorance that people have thinking that schollys create a two-tiered system. There are plenty of schools that buck this trend (Stanford, Duke, etc). I feel bad for the writer that he or she does not know what they are talking about. Another point that I am contesting is the writers listing of non-scholly schools is that I think they are all D3. This is their prerogative and I support D3 athletics. In fact Reed's curriculum leaves little time for anything other than studying. I have done research into that school as a past recipient of mail from them and the joint seems extremely intense. I don't even think they have NCAA athletics. Many schools can't support D1 athletics. Scholarships used in conjunction with rigorous standards can be good for all parties. If Lafayette's standards fell with the introduction of scholarships I would want that changed. Now I am beginning to ramble!!

Adieu

[Tribe4SF]

Fellow Leopards: Have you seen the letter that appears in the new Alumni News regarding scholarships...here's a part of it for everyone...I disagree with this scenario (I think most here would since we're all fairly "pro-athletics" or we wouldn't spend time on here)...

"Starting out in four sports, the scholarships will spread like a virus. Each sport will be demanding its share. President Weiss will see control of athletics slide over from the president to the athletic director. In time, Lafayette will have a two-tier student body: athletes and students."

The other part of the letter references the book Colleges That Change Lives: 40 Schools That Will Change the Way You Think about Colleges and states that "well-known schools such as Goucher, Antioch, Earlham, St. John's and Reed plus 35 others" are good schools and don't give scholarships. While I don't doubt the academic prowess of these schools, I don't consider them to be peers, not in the way that Lehigh, Bucknell, and Colgate are, as well as other schools like William and Mary for instance. I think Division I athletics give the school visibility that we'd otherwise not have. :twocents: :twocents:

The academic reactionaries are a constant with regard to scholarship athletics. At W&M, they're the minority, but they still make noise occasionally, and some professors remain hostile to athletes. The track record is there at schools like W&M and Richmond, so supporters of sholarships have real evidence to point out.

The detractor's argument at W&M relates to resources that could be better used in other ways (from their view). When I've been engaged with them in the past, I tell them that since it's all private and designated money, they need to make their case to donors, and that they can start with me. The conversation usually ends at that point.

[LeopardFan04]

The academic reactionaries are a constant with regard to scholarship athletics. At W&M, they're the minority, but they still make noise occasionally, and some professors remain hostile to athletes. The track record is there at schools like W&M and Richmond, so supporters of sholarships have real evidence to point out.

The detractor's argument at W&M relates to resources that could be better used in other ways (from their view). When I've been engaged with them in the past, I tell them that since it's all private and designated money, they need to make their case to donors, and that they can start with me. The conversation usually ends at that point.


Great! :hurray: