I wish the Pioneer would disband

[fc97]

Been watching FCS since Elon entered the fold 97-99. Since the creation of the Pioneer, it was an annoyance but they stayed out. Now that they continually get a playoff spot, I wish they would be forced to disband. It just makes too much sense for them to not just have their teams fold into proper conferences.

Big South:
Campbell - already going
Jacksonville (A-Sun connection)
Steston (A-Sun connection)

CAA:
Davidson (because the A-10 link)
Butler (because of the Big East link)
Dayton (because the A-10 link)

OVC:
Morehead State

NEC:
Marist

MVC:
Valparaiso
Drake

Big Sky:
San Diego (as its the closest conference)

Obviously this would weaken some conferences' SoS, but, overall this would make sense to me..... I just don't understand "budget" football when you have to fly to so many stupid games.

[BadlandsGrizFan]

Ya just what the Big Sky needs....another freaking team to make the schedules even more unbalanced.

[Sycamore62]

Been watching FCS since Elon entered the fold 97-99. Since the creation of the Pioneer, it was an annoyance but they stayed out. Now that they continually get a playoff spot, I wish they would be forced to disband. It just makes too much sense for them to not just have their teams fold into proper conferences.

Big South:
Campbell - already going
Jacksonville (A-Sun connection)
Steston (A-Sun connection)

CAA:
Davidson (because the A-10 link)
Butler (because of the Big East link)
Dayton (because the A-10 link)

OVC:
Morehead State

NEC:
Marist

MVC:
Valparaiso
Drake

Big Sky:
San Diego (as its the closest conference)

Obviously this would weaken some conferences' SoS, but, overall this would make sense to me..... I just don't understand "budget" football when you have to fly to so many stupid games.

them getting an AQ playoff spot opened up 3 at large spots i think.

[wapiti]

I think they should drop to Div 2.

[Lehigh'98]

I think they should drop to Div 2.

I don't think their basketball teams would go for it.

[UNIFanSince1983]

I think they should drop to Div 2.

I am sure they would play D3 football if they could and keep all their other programs in D1.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I am sure they would play D3 football if they could and keep all their other programs in D1.

Didn't Dayton dominate D3 when they were in it?

The fact that Dayton and Butler don't commit to football baffles me. They have the money and resources to be good because of their brand hoops programs. Why half-ass it?

[POD Knows]

Been watching FCS since Elon entered the fold 97-99. Since the creation of the Pioneer, it was an annoyance but they stayed out. Now that they continually get a playoff spot, I wish they would be forced to disband. It just makes too much sense for them to not just have their teams fold into proper conferences.

Big South:
Campbell - already going
Jacksonville (A-Sun connection)
Steston (A-Sun connection)

CAA:
Davidson (because the A-10 link)
Butler (because of the Big East link)
Dayton (because the A-10 link)

OVC:
Morehead State

NEC:
Marist

MVC:
Valparaiso
Drake

Big Sky:
San Diego (as its the closest conference)

Obviously this would weaken some conferences' SoS, but, overall this would make sense to me..... I just don't understand "budget" football when you have to fly to so many stupid games.**** this noise

[clenz]

Didn't Dayton dominate D3 when they were in it?

The fact that Dayton and Butler don't commit to football baffles me. They have the money and resources to be good because of their brand hoops programs. Why half-ass it?
This is why the rule exists.

D3 schools had enough of the bull**** and told the NCAA to make them **** or get off the pot when it came to football.

Thus the Dayton Rule of 1993

[RootinFerDukes]

This is dumb. These conferences don't owe any of those institutions homes if they don't bring anything meaningful to the table. If they don't have a conference home, they should look long and hard in the mirror and decide to disband their football programs instead. Many of those are basketball schools wasting money on non-scholly fcs football that doesn't even compete for jack squat.

[JSUSoutherner]

Cause another useless cupcake is just what the OVC needs.

[clenz]

**** this noise
That would allow your son to get his Summit League Football League going.

MVFC would become the MVC and go

Drake
Illinois State
Indiana State
Missouri State
Murray State - football comes with their basketball addition
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Valparasio
Youngstown State - if they want to hang around

Summit League would be
NDSU
USD
SDSU
WIU
UND
and I suppose you could maybe talk UNC, Weber and SUU out of the Big Sky?

That's you boys wet dream.

[fc97]

You're right, no one owes them anything except maybe the OVC and Big South and potentially the MVC.

[JSUSoutherner]

That would allow your son to get his Summit League Football League going.

MVFC would become the MVC and go

Drake
Illinois State
Indiana State
Missouri State
Murray State - football comes with their basketball addition
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Valparasio
Youngstown State - if they want to hang around

Summit League would be
NDSU
USD
SDSU
WIU
UND
and I suppose you could maybe talk UNC, Weber and SUU out of the Big Sky?

That's you boys wet dream.

We can trade you guys Murray for YSU.

[BisonFan02]

That would allow your son to get his Summit League Football League going.

MVFC would become the MVC and go

Drake
Illinois State
Indiana State
Missouri State
Murray State - football comes with their basketball addition
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Valparasio
Youngstown State - if they want to hang around

Summit League would be
NDSU
USD
SDSU
WIU
UND
and I suppose you could maybe talk UNC, Weber and SUU out of the Big Sky?

That's you boys wet dream.

That....minus YSU....is your new non scholly PFL. The Summit members run the MVFC. :D

That bottom league....adding Weber and SUU...is MILES better than that MVC garbage above.

[clenz]

We can trade you guys Murray for YSU.
Most likely scenario - not this magical PFL disbands but Murray State leaving - if the OVC is looking for a quick grab is Western Illinois

The OVC seems to have this thing with not letting a team use football as a home if not everything else. That takes YSU out.

Murray State will get an MVFC invite. OVC needs a team. Illinois funding is going down. The Summit League is in flux a bit and if it expands it will go south and west. WIU is about to be even more on an island in the OVC.

WIU is a bit of an outlier in the OVC, but not by much with SEMO, EIU and SIU-E up there.

[walliver]

I have no problems with the PFL. They probably don't merit an auto-bid to the playoffs, but the 24 team field also tends to let in a few undeserving at-large bids during some years.

These are schools who picked a playing level at which to play football. The idea of forcing PFL teams to play in full-scholarship leagues makes about as much sense as forcing the Sun Belt into the SEC.

[clenz]

I have no problems with the PFL. They probably don't merit an auto-bid to the playoffs, but the 24 team field also tends to let in a few undeserving at-large bids during some years.

These are schools who picked a playing level at which to play football. The idea of forcing PFL teams to play in full-scholarship leagues makes about as much sense as forcing the Sun Belt into the SEC.
I'd be all for letting PFL teams play D3 again IF there are very strict rules put in place for how their program is funded.

Basically they'd have to use a multiplier to fund their program that way their other programs aren't funding non-scholarship football at a level that other D3s aren't.

Hell, take the average football budget of the top 10 D3s and tell them you can't spend more than that.

[ccd494]

I still don't understand why people get so upset the PFL exists. It doesn't affect your team, or your enjoyment of your team's games, at all. So Campbell is playing San Diego, why does it make you enjoy South Dakota State vs. North Dakota State less?

These schools want to sponsor football because they see value in bringing some of their fans and alumni to campus 4-5 times per year, and going to a game a pleasant thing to do in the fall, but don't see the value in having 50+ scholarships and competing to go to the playoffs that no one watches on tv anyways. So what? Who cares if they are labeled FCS or FBS or D-II or D-III. Don't like what they do? Don't play them!

[JSUSoutherner]

Most likely scenario - not this magical PFL disbands but Murray State leaving - if the OVC is looking for a quick grab is Western Illinois

The OVC seems to have this thing with not letting a team use football as a home if not everything else. That takes YSU out.

Murray State will get an MVFC invite. OVC needs a team. Illinois funding is going down. The Summit League is in flux a bit and if it expands it will go south and west. WIU is about to be even more on an island in the OVC.

WIU is a bit of an outlier in the OVC, but not by much with SEMO, EIU and SIU-E up there.

Or we can take WIU AND YSU. xnodx

JSU
YSU
WIU
EIU
a finally competent APSU

That's not a half bad collection of teams.

[clenz]

I can’t get a read on YSU. They seem quite happy in the Horizon, and with no where to go with football they settled on the Gateway and have lived with it.

I think if they could make Indy work, they would. They strike me as a BYU or Notre Dame type team when it comes to football.

[woffordgrad94]

This is dumb. These conferences don't owe any of those institutions homes if they don't bring anything meaningful to the table. If they don't have a conference home, they should look long and hard in the mirror and decide to disband their football programs instead. Many of those are basketball schools wasting money on non-scholly fcs football that doesn't even compete for jack squat.
This is my opinion too. I alo think letting them play at the D-2 or D-3 level at only football with rules in place concerning their budgets like Clenz said would be a good idea. In any event, these teams do not need to be playing FCS football with eveyone else.

[Daytripper]

The Southland should take them all and make them a separate division...xdrunkyx

[Go Green]

Been watching FCS since Elon entered the fold 97-99. Since the creation of the Pioneer, it was an annoyance but they stayed out. Now that they continually get a playoff spot, I wish they would be forced to disband. It just makes too much sense for them to not just have their teams fold into proper conferences.



Bubble teams from Power Basketball conferences routinely make similar complaints about lower-tier conference champs getting an auto-bid to the NCAA tournament.

[UNIFanSince1983]

I can’t get a read on YSU. They seem quite happy in the Horizon, and with no where to go with football they settled on the Gateway and have lived with it.

I think if they could make Indy work, they would. They strike me as a BYU or Notre Dame type team when it comes to football.

They were an Independent from 88-96. Prior to joining the Gateway. I am sure they would love it to get back to that, but not sure it is feasible in FCS. Heck, even in FBS it isn't really feasible anymore which is why ND made that agreement with the ACC.

[FargoBison]

Bubble teams from Power Basketball conferences routinely make similar complaints about lower-tier conference champs getting an auto-bid to the NCAA tournament.

There is one major difference, those conferences all give out the max scholarships and aren't behaving like Division III teams. If they did that, it wouldn't fly.

[UNIFanSince1983]

There is one major difference, those conferences all give out the max scholarships and aren't behaving like Division III teams. If they did that, it wouldn't fly.

Not entirely true. The Ivy gets an auto-bid with providing 0 athletic scholarships...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I still don't understand why people get so upset the PFL exists. It doesn't affect your team, or your enjoyment of your team's games, at all. So Campbell is playing San Diego, why does it make you enjoy South Dakota State vs. North Dakota State less?

These schools want to sponsor football because they see value in bringing some of their fans and alumni to campus 4-5 times per year, and going to a game a pleasant thing to do in the fall, but don't see the value in having 50+ scholarships and competing to go to the playoffs that no one watches on tv anyways. So what? Who cares if they are labeled FCS or FBS or D-II or D-III. Don't like what they do? Don't play them!

+1. Not sure why people are so triggered by the existence of the PFL.

[FargoBison]

Not entirely true. The Ivy gets an auto-bid with providing 0 athletic scholarships...

Technically I guess from a scholarship standpoint but they operate their programs on a high mid-major level outside of that and really I don't think it is too hard to get financial aid for most of their players.

[woffordgrad94]

+1. Not sure why people are so triggered by the existence of the PFL.
Wofford has NEVER played onr of these schools in football to my knowledge. We scheduled Jacksonville once, but then they backed out for some reason...maybe they were skeered. :)

[BucBisonAtLarge]

them getting an AQ playoff spot opened up 3 at large spots i think.
+1

[Go Green]

We scheduled Jacksonville once, but then they backed out for some reason...maybe they were skeered. :)

They screwed Penn this season as well. Penn had to scramble to find a replacement, and the best they could do was D-II Ohio Dominican.

If Jacksonville was scared of Penn, they shouldn't have been. The Quakers are having a down year this season, facing rebuilding issues similar to what Dartmouth went through last season.

[TheValleyRaider]

I still don't understand why people get so upset the PFL exists. It doesn't affect your team, or your enjoyment of your team's games, at all. So Campbell is playing San Diego, why does it make you enjoy South Dakota State vs. North Dakota State less?

These schools want to sponsor football because they see value in bringing some of their fans and alumni to campus 4-5 times per year, and going to a game a pleasant thing to do in the fall, but don't see the value in having 50+ scholarships and competing to go to the playoffs that no one watches on tv anyways. So what? Who cares if they are labeled FCS or FBS or D-II or D-III. Don't like what they do? Don't play them!

Yeah, pretty much this. I wouldn't necessarily take shots at the playoff, but it's not like San Diego getting in (and beating a full scholarship team in Cal Poly) is the reason overall ratings are low. Just the nature of the sport at this level.

[dgtw]

At least they want to go to the playoffs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[woffordgrad94]

Wofford ended up with like Lincoln or Virginia-Wise the year that Jacksonville pulled out at the last minute...someone we have no business playing. But it’s all we could get or we would have only had 4 home games that year. It pisses you off because it takes away a likely D1 win and makes it that much harder to make the playoffs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wofford ended up with like Lincoln or Virginia-Wise the year that Jacksonville pulled out at the last minute...someone we have no business playing. But it’s all we could get or we would have only had 4 home games that year. It pisses you off because it takes away a likely D1 win and makes it that much harder to make the playoffs.

You literally made the playoffs that year with 7 D-I wins while a 10 D-I team sat at home. Not sure I'd be using THAT as a crybaby example.

[fmftballmgr]

That would allow your son to get his Summit League Football League going.

MVFC would become the MVC and go

Drake
Illinois State
Indiana State
Missouri State
Murray State - football comes with their basketball addition
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Valparasio
Youngstown State - if they want to hang around

Summit League would be
NDSU
USD
SDSU
WIU
UND
and I suppose you could maybe talk UNC, Weber and SUU out of the Big Sky?

That's you boys wet dream.

This would work for me. It still would be a tough schedule but it keeps Murray away from the 4 Dakota schools.

[woffordgrad94]

You literally made the playoffs that year with 7 D-I wins while a 10 D-I team sat at home. Not sure I'd be using THAT as a crybaby example.
Not crying...just pointing out that might be a reason, fair or unfair, that I’m not really high on the PFL. And if that 10 win team was some PFL team, I personally do not think that they deserved the playoffs because they would have likely been beaten 50-0 in the first round...but that’s just my opinion on the matterr.

[POD Knows]

That would allow your son to get his Summit League Football League going.

MVFC would become the MVC and go

Drake
Illinois State
Indiana State
Missouri State
Murray State - football comes with their basketball addition
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Valparasio
Youngstown State - if they want to hang around

Summit League would be
NDSU
USD
SDSU
WIU
UND
and I suppose you could maybe talk UNC, Weber and SUU out of the Big Sky?

That's you boys wet dream.It would be nice to have one more team for the Summit, you won't get the Utah's out of the BSC I don't think but I could live with this if they would move.

[bonarae]

Another thread of somebody bashing the PFL...

What makes me tick though is that many FCS football fans can't really accept the fact that there are conferences with a variety of restrictions (think the Ivies and HBCUs not sending their autobids to the playoffs), budgets and tastes.

What makes me wonder further is a what-if scenario. If only the ex-FCS/I-AA schools who dropped football since the 1990s were still playing today, do you think the problematic scenario would change or improve, especially in the Northeast, where it has affected the most? (Assume those FCS teams who are now playing G5 FBS are what they are today.)

[NY Crusader 2010]

Not crying...just pointing out that might be a reason, fair or unfair, that I’m not really high on the PFL. And if that 10 win team was some PFL team, I personally do not think that they deserved the playoffs because they would have likely been beaten 50-0 in the first round...but that’s just my opinion on the matterr.

Hmmm, I wonder if maybe LFN was referring to the 10-1 Lehigh team that missed the playoffs in 2012.

[Laker]

What makes me wonder further is a what-if scenario. If only the ex-FCS/I-AA schools who dropped football since the 1990s were still playing today, do you think the problematic scenario would change or improve, especially in the Northeast, where it has affected the most? (Assume those FCS teams who are now playing G5 FBS are what they are today.)

It is too late at night for me to search the teams that have dropped the sport, but you could probably have at least enough for a division in the Northeast alone- Vermont (1974), BU, St. John's off the top of my head. Add in the California schools over the years you would have quite a few.

[NY Crusader 2010]

It is too late at night for me to search the teams that have dropped the sport, but you could probably have at least enough for a division in the Northeast alone- Vermont (1974), BU, St. John's off the top of my head. Add in the California schools over the years you would have quite a few.

Siena
Canisius
St. Peter's
La Salle
Iona
Northeastern
Hofstra

And that's just off the top of my head the past 10-15 years.

[Go...gate]

Siena
Canisius
St. Peter's
La Salle
Iona
Northeastern
Hofstra

And that's just off the top of my head the past 10-15 years.

Don't forget Fairfield.

[bonarae]

It is too late at night for me to search the teams that have dropped the sport, but you could probably have at least enough for a division in the Northeast alone- Vermont (1974), BU, St. John's off the top of my head. Add in the California schools over the years you would have quite a few.

You are correct. Some Northeast and California colleges and universities share a "football allergy" but to different degrees... while California football prepsters like to go out of state to play CFB (see Brady and Edelman, they played in Midwestern FBS schools out of HS and JuCo respectively in CA), the same is not that true for the Northeast prepsters; often they either hang up their cleats or move on to other sports e.g. lacrosse.

For the likes of New Haven, ETSU, ODU and Mercer that have restarted football within the past 10 years after several years of football absence, there are also the likes of Pacific, Cal State Fullerton, BU and Hofstra that have moved on from their football past. xsmhx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Don't forget Fairfield.

Seton Hall
St. John's
Vermont

Much of the pressure came from the Dayton Rule in retrospect. Many Eastern schools would have probably kept D-III programs, but they want D-I hoops and D-I non-scholly wasn't worth it to them.

[kalm]

Another thread of somebody bashing the PFL...

What makes me tick though is that many FCS football fans can't really accept the fact that there are conferences with a variety of restrictions (think the Ivies and HBCUs not sending their autobids to the playoffs), budgets and tastes.

)

Maybe it has something to do with you guys considering "taste" a metric in discussing committment to athletics.

[DFW HOYA]

Seton Hall
St. John's
Vermont

Much of the pressure came from the Dayton Rule in retrospect. Many Eastern schools would have probably kept D-III programs, but they want D-I hoops and D-I non-scholly wasn't worth it to them.

Vermont (Div. I/Yankee Conference) dropped in 1974, Seton Hall (D-III independent) in 1982. Both were well before the Dayton rule.

I'm not convinced that the Dayton rule ended the MAAC programs--after all, in 1992, there were 27 sub-Division I teams moved to I-AA and only one (Div. II Santa Clara) failed to move up. What killed MAAC football was the league office telling the school presidents football was not a priority and that they should focus on basketball to elevate the conference.

In fact, the opposite occurred. The MAAC, once a legitimate Eastern conference in the days of Lionel Simmons and when LaSalle was a 4-seed in the NCAA tournament, is now consigned to the 14 and 15 seeds.

[Laker]

Speaking of a lack of commitment to football- sometimes it isn't the team, but the fans.

This is why I can't stand pseudo-intellectuals. Columbia alumni are dismayed that their team is finally winning. They didn't support them when they were losing, they made fun of them. Now that they are winning, the alumni are showing that they are the real losers.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/24/nyregion/columbia-football-winning.html?_r=0&referer=

[ElCid]

Speaking of a lack of commitment to football- sometimes it isn't the team, but the fans.

This is why I can't stand pseudo-intellectuals. Columbia alumni are dismayed that their team is finally winning. They didn't support them when they were losing, they made fun of them. Now that they are winning, the alumni are showing that they are the real losers.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/24/nyregion/columbia-football-winning.html?_r=0&referer=

What a bunch of pathetic losers. Maybe they should disband their school.

[ccd494]

What killed MAAC football was the league office telling the school presidents football was not a priority and that they should focus on basketball to elevate the conference.

In fact, the opposite occurred. The MAAC, once a legitimate Eastern conference in the days of Lionel Simmons and when LaSalle was a 4-seed in the NCAA tournament, is now consigned to the 14 and 15 seeds.

I mean, that was likely to happen anyways. The media landscape is designed to kill off mid majors from interloping on big time college hoops. Gonzaga aside, it's really just the A-10 hanging on as a conference that can get a high seed/at large. Even Conference USA, the Missouri Valley and the Mountain West are getting elbowed aside. You can't make the NCAAs as an at large or high seed without a robust non-conference schedule. If you are from a non-power conference and are any good, you aren't going to get to play top teams (and don't even dream of a home game). It makes North Carolina more money to play all home games against crap opponents and the neutral site games against other big teams.

When Lionel Simmons and LaSalle were a #4 seed in 1990, Maine hosted or recently hosted BC, UConn and #1 DePaul. Good luck getting that to happen again.

The MAAC devaluing football didn't harm MAAC basketball. MAAC basketball, and every other non-major conference, was already doomed.

[fmftballmgr]

Also another thing to consider is that not funding scholarships allow those schools to put their money in other sports. Like Morehead can put that money into men's basketball. Everybody in a conference should at least have to fund most of the same majority sports to put everybody on even playing field. I did not want Belmont and SIUe in the ovc cause they did not have football and Morehead should have been kicked out because they don't fund the scholarships.

Austin Peay tried it and discovered it did not save them a lot and they were getting it handed to them. So they went back to funding it, made the commitment to football. Renovated their stadium and facilities and have worked it program into a respectable program for at least this year

[clenz]

Another thread of somebody bashing the PFL...

What makes me tick though is that many FCS football fans can't really accept the fact that there are conferences with a variety of restrictions (think the Ivies and HBCUs not sending their autobids to the playoffs), budgets and tastes.

What makes me wonder further is a what-if scenario. If only the ex-FCS/I-AA schools who dropped football since the 1990s were still playing today, do you think the problematic scenario would change or improve, especially in the Northeast, where it has affected the most? (Assume those FCS teams who are now playing G5 FBS are what they are today.)
It has to do with the fact they want to be a D1 program, but they don't want to fund a D1 level. It's a sham.

If you're going to be D1 you should be able to fund at a D1 level. I want nothing more than for the NCAA to put a floor on the FCS level for scholarships funded. Make the floor 45-50 over a two year rolling period. The FBS has a floor of 75 (I think...maybe 78) over a 2 year rolling period.

The FCS should absolutely have a floor. It's a travishamockery to have D1 programs dwarfed in funding by D2, D3 and NAIA schools. To be, regularly, losing to D2, D3 and NAIA programs.

D2 funds at 36 scholarships. NAIA at 24. If you can't give more than a D2 school you either shouldn't be D1 as an athletic department or you shouldn't have football as you can't afford it.

Either fund it and have it, or don't have it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The MAAC devaluing football didn't harm MAAC basketball. MAAC basketball, and every other non-major conference, was already doomed.

Conversely, you can also say that strangling and killing football didn't help, either - which is more pertinent here. The tradeoff was that murdering football was going to result in multiple Gonzagas. Ask Hofstra and Northeastern how that's working out.

About the only school you can argue "made out" by killing football was St. Mary's (CA), however that school is now a walking and talking NCAA violation. I have a high degree of confidence they will be swept up in this tornado engulfing all the NCAA men's hoops program. If you're going to take the "money" and pay 25 year olds from Australia to play hoops for you...

[JSUSoutherner]

Also another thing to consider is that not funding scholarships allow those schools to put their money in other sports. Like Morehead can put that money into men's basketball. Everybody in a conference should at least have to fund most of the same majority sports to put everybody on even playing field. I did not want Belmont and SIUe in the ovc cause they did not have football and Morehead should have been kicked out because they don't fund the scholarships.

Austin Peay tried it and discovered it did not save them a lot and they were getting it handed to them. So they went back to funding it, made the commitment to football. Renovated their stadium and facilities and have worked it program into a respectable program for at least this year

If they can hold on to Healy for a few years they may be giving us a run for our money here soon. At the rate their improving who knows how far they'll be able to take their success.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Conversely, you can also say that strangling and killing football didn't help, either - which is more pertinent here. The tradeoff was that murdering football was going to result in multiple Gonzagas. Ask Hofstra and Northeastern how that's working out.

About the only school you can argue "made out" by killing football was St. Mary's (CA), however that school is now a walking and talking NCAA violation. I have a high degree of confidence they will be swept up in this tornado engulfing all the NCAA men's hoops program. If you're going to take the "money" and pay 25 year olds from Australia to play hoops for you...

Great point. There are numerous alums at Holy Cross who have this belief that dropping football will somehow automatically result in our basketball and hockey programs going into the stratosphere. I don't understand why people think there is a correlation between dropping football and elevating basketball. Did Villanova's basketball program become irrelevant once they brought football back in 1987 (and quality FCS football at that)? Butler dropped football before making two straight Final Fours, correct? Northeastern and Hofstra are great examples. Though I believe the claim at Hofstra is that the money saved from football was not re-routed into other athletics but into academics instead.

[NY Crusader 2010]

It has to do with the fact they want to be a D1 program, but they don't want to fund a D1 level. It's a sham.

If you're going to be D1 you should be able to fund at a D1 level. I want nothing more than for the NCAA to put a floor on the FCS level for scholarships funded. Make the floor 45-50 over a two year rolling period. The FBS has a floor of 75 (I think...maybe 78) over a 2 year rolling period.

The FCS should absolutely have a floor. It's a travishamockery to have D1 programs dwarfed in funding by D2, D3 and NAIA schools. To be, regularly, losing to D2, D3 and NAIA programs.

D2 funds at 36 scholarships. NAIA at 24. If you can't give more than a D2 school you either shouldn't be D1 as an athletic department or you shouldn't have football as you can't afford it.

Either fund it and have it, or don't have it.

Clenz, I totally understand the logic here but the end result of those hypothetical "increase funding or else" policies would almost undoubtedly be dropped programs. It was a near miracle that Holy Cross, Bucknell and Lafayette committed to scholarships, good luck peddling the idea on Valpo and Marist. And given that we're all advocates for college football here, I feel that more schools dropping the sport is a bad thing, no matter who they are. Right now, many across the country are launching a "war on football" because of the health risks associated with the sport.

It would be great for everyone if there was a way around the Dayton rule. For example, why not allow Drake to play in a D-III conference with schools like Grinnell and Lake Forest but not be eligible for the NCAA Playoffs? I have no idea how the Dayton Rule was applied in our case but Holy Cross women's hockey did something like this for years (until next year when we transition to DI and Hockey East). We were in a conference with Manhattanville, Salem State, Norwich and other small D-III schools but could not participate in the conference tournament or NCAA's.

[clenz]

Great point. There are numerous alums at Holy Cross who have this belief that dropping football will somehow automatically result in our basketball and hockey programs going into the stratosphere. I don't understand why people think there is a correlation between dropping football and elevating basketball. Did Villanova's basketball program become irrelevant once they brought football back in 1987 (and quality FCS football at that)? Butler dropped football before making two straight Final Fours, correct? Northeastern and Hofstra are great examples. Though I believe the claim at Hofstra is that the money saved from football was not re-routed into other athletics but into academics instead.
This is a discussion had on the MVC message board a ton.

There is a very strong divide in the MVC between UNI, Illinois State, Southern Illinois, Missouri State and then the private schools - Drake, Evansville, Bradley, Loyola and I'm sure Valpo will fall on this side moving forward.

The private schools are convinced the public schools are wasting millions on football. If we dropped football and put that 3.5-4 million into basketball the conference would be better off.

1. The privates are already so far behind in terms of competition level they wouldn't want UNI going from 3+ million spend on basketball 7 million spent on basketball. The MVC has called Thursday night of our conference tournament (the night the bottom 4 teams play for a chance to play the #1 and #2 seed on Friday) as Private School Night. I've run the numbers going back to 2003 and on average 3 of those 4 spots are held by private schools in any given year. The average finish of the 4 private schools (first year for Valpo so I'm leaving them out) is the bottom 4 in the league. Those 4 finish the bottom 4 in the All Sports Trophy every year as well.

2. Money doesn't go right from football to mens basketball. That's now how it works on any level.

3. They don't understand the drastic drop in donations that schools would have if football went away.

4. Maybe dropping football at a school like Drake, Butler, Valpo, Stetson, etc.. would have no impact on the rest of the AD. At places like UNI it would have significant impact.

[fmftballmgr]

If they can hold on to Healy for a few years they may be giving us a run for our money here soon. At the rate their improving who knows how far they'll be able to take their success.

That will be the tough thing to do. If he has another year like he is having some mid major is going to come calling offering a deal he can't refuse.

[fmftballmgr]

2. Money doesn't go right from football to mens basketball. That's now how it works on any level.



But that is how some delusional fans at so called mid major basketball schools think, including Murray

[NY Crusader 2010]

But that is how some delusional fans at so called mid major basketball schools think, including Murray

Some delusional fans at Holy Cross think this way as well. As if we drop football tomorrow and, all of a sudden we'll be in the Big East.

[clenz]

But that is how some delusional fans at so called mid major basketball schools think, including Murray
Speaking of Murray - I forgot an entire chunk of my post

The MVC has said they are looking at going to 12. It will happen. Murray State will be part of that 12. This will be the first school the MVC will let in that has football since UNI in 1992. It will be interesting to see what happens and who the 12th school will be.

I really think the MVC is heading towards a Big East split at somepoint in the next decade.

[ccd494]

It has to do with the fact they want to be a D1 program, but they don't want to fund a D1 level. It's a sham.

If you're going to be D1 you should be able to fund at a D1 level. I want nothing more than for the NCAA to put a floor on the FCS level for scholarships funded. Make the floor 45-50 over a two year rolling period. The FBS has a floor of 75 (I think...maybe 78) over a 2 year rolling period.

The FCS should absolutely have a floor. It's a travishamockery to have D1 programs dwarfed in funding by D2, D3 and NAIA schools. To be, regularly, losing to D2, D3 and NAIA programs.

D2 funds at 36 scholarships. NAIA at 24. If you can't give more than a D2 school you either shouldn't be D1 as an athletic department or you shouldn't have football as you can't afford it.

Either fund it and have it, or don't have it.

But they don't want to have D-I football. They just want to have football. If you, tomorrow, told the PFL that they were losing their autobid I don't think there would be a rush to join other conferences or add scholarships. I think they'd say "fine" and keep doing what they are doing. Dayton aside, none of these schools were in D-3 because they wanted to win championships and they thought that was easier. They just figured they could get more competitive games down there so their fans/alums didn't have to show up and watch them lose 55-0.

The difference between FBS having a floor and FCS having a floor is that the FBS is nominally where programs go because they want to have the biggest and best football programs there are. The FCS was created and exists because a large number of schools have thrown up their hands and said "I can't compete with that." If you are already admitting that you are non-competitive with the top of division one, you can't then add a floor. "We want to be substandard, but not TOO substandard." The NCAA already bent over backwards and created a two tier division one, while there is only one tier of D-II and D-III. Where, by the way, you find enormous disparity in aid and resources as well (if you think all D-II football teams offer 30+ scholarships, I have a bridge to sell you).

Just ignore the Pioneer if you don't like it. It's not like they are on ESPN every Saturday at noon, rubbing your face in their existence. It's not like FBS schools feel superior because they have UMass and UTEP at the bottom of their division and not Morehead State and Campbell. They feel superior because they have Alabama and Penn State and the FCS has James Madison and North Dakota State. They don't know that Morehead State exists or what their record is or who they play. Occasionally a PFL team will lose to an NAIA or D-II team. I don't think that the average D-II fan thinks that D-II is better than FCS as a whole because Valdosta State can beat Davidson, just like I'm not going to crow that FCS>FBS because Howard beat UNLV.

[clenz]

If they just want the sport on campus, don’t care about the playoffs, or anything else make it a club sport.

If you are going to run a Division 1 athletic program you should be willing to fund it like a division 1 football program.

[ST_Lawson]

...
The private schools are convinced the public schools are wasting millions on football. If we dropped football and put that 3.5-4 million into basketball the conference would be better off.

1. The privates are already so far behind in terms of competition level they wouldn't want UNI going from 3+ million spend on basketball 7 million spent on basketball. The MVC has called Thursday night of our conference tournament (the night the bottom 4 teams play for a chance to play the #1 and #2 seed on Friday) as Private School Night. I've run the numbers going back to 2003 and on average 3 of those 4 spots are held by private schools in any given year. The average finish of the 4 private schools (first year for Valpo so I'm leaving them out) is the bottom 4 in the league. Those 4 finish the bottom 4 in the All Sports Trophy every year as well.
...

Yea, I just don't get that argument. They're already mostly the bottom of the conference...do they really want you guys to pump more money into your basketball programs and push them even further into the cellar?

[DFW HOYA]

If they just want the sport on campus, don’t care about the playoffs, or anything else make it a club sport.

If you are going to run a Division 1 athletic program you should be willing to fund it like a division 1 football program.

What is that number? Outside of JMU, no I-AA/FCS school funds at the level people expect from Division I, which is why your team is here and not there.

[clenz]

What is that number? Outside of JMU, no I-AA/FCS school funds at the level people expect from Division I, which is why your team is here and not there.

The number should include at meats 50 scholarships. Anything above that is your call.

[Twentysix]

This topic is ludicrous and the pioneer playoff team last year was easily in the top 16 best teams that made the playoffs.

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[Twentysix]

They may not always have a team that is worthy of entrance, but in our most recent playoff they absolutely did.

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[dbackjon]

I'd be all for letting PFL teams play D3 again IF there are very strict rules put in place for how their program is funded.

Basically they'd have to use a multiplier to fund their program that way their other programs aren't funding non-scholarship football at a level that other D3s aren't.

Hell, take the average football budget of the top 10 D3s and tell them you can't spend more than that.


How do you account for the multi-million dollar training facilities, etc that some of the Pioneer League teams have access to (looking at you, Dayton).

Everything is best the way it is. If you are Division I in basketball, then play all your sports there. Otherwise, why compete at all in DI? Should other sports be able to drop down divisions? Should Arizona State be able to start a Men's Lacrosse non-schollie and play in D3?

[woffordgrad94]

This topic is ludicrous and the pioneer playoff team last year was easily in the top 16 best teams that made the playoffs.

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jz1TjCphXE

[Go...gate]

They may not always have a team that is worthy of entrance, but in our most recent playoff they absolutely did.

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They did, indeed.