Entire Patriot League off to Horrendeous Start

[Go Green]

So says STATS.

http://www.fcs.football/cfb/story.asp?i=20171004140608127526604&ref=hea&tm=&src=FCS

[RichH2]

Yeah. We figured that out all by ourselves. :)

[Neighbor2]

The current Patriot League football situation is disgusting. It's as if all the athletic directors and coaches sat around a conference table and debated "Do we really want/need to prosper at this level?" I always believed, when you choose to play, you do so with all the same motivation and tools as your opponents. This group believes otherwise, it seems.

Lehigh, my 'neighbor,' is allowing its football program to wither away. No one shows any enthusiasm. The game day home experience is bland. Media coverage and promotion almost non-existent. Crowds are one-third of what was once common. The 2017 season is a disaster and I'm not sure the management even cares.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lehigh, my 'neighbor,' is allowing its football program to wither away. No one shows any enthusiasm. The game day home experience is bland. Media coverage and promotion almost non-existent. Crowds are one-third of what was once common. The 2017 season is a disaster and I'm not sure the management even cares.

*cough*

I am a firm believer that Lehigh should be beating the drum for some new amenities for Murray Goodman - and indeed I have been beating that drum. But expecting 1999 or 2004 crowds for football games in this day and age is an unrealistic expectation in my view. I do think however that 8,000-9,000 for non-Lafayette games can and should be an achievable goal.

[Neighbor2]

*cough*

I am a firm believer that Lehigh should be beating the drum for some new amenities for Murray Goodman - and indeed I have been beating that drum. But expecting 1999 or 2004 crowds for football games in this day and age is an unrealistic expectation in my view. I do think however that 8,000-9,000 for non-Lafayette games can and should be an achievable goal.

Never meant to overlook your EXCELLENT work, Chuck! I've enjoyed reading you for years. To clarify, I refer to local, 'General Audience' coverage/promotions. The Lehigh Valley region has grown to about 750,000 persons. A better than average FCS football program here should be able to regularly draw 12,000 to a home game. That requires mining new fans. Mainstream local media is being underutilized, I think. You are a great source for existing Lehigh fans, more so than newbies.

There is also the matter of low Lehigh student attendance numbers. Bus service over the mountain needs to be run in a continuous loop beginning at 10am. No student should have to wait more than 10-15 minutes to depart from campus, or to return.

I just don't see the effort to create a fun, engaging and exciting afternoon for all ages.

[DFW HOYA]

So says STATS.

http://www.fcs.football/cfb/story.asp?i=20171004140608127526604&ref=hea&tm=&src=FCS

Apparently there are only five teams in the league, at least in the tone of this article.


I am a firm believer that Lehigh should be beating the drum for some new amenities for Murray Goodman - and indeed I have been beating that drum. But expecting 1999 or 2004 crowds for football games in this day and age is an unrealistic expectation in my view. I do think however that 8,000-9,000 for non-Lafayette games can and should be an achievable goal.

If only someone at Lehigh could have steered Goodman's gift into a full-scale rebuild at Taylor Stadium instead of in the valley.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xNeGxMSu-C4/VjtDMYCE2JI/AAAAAAAAAsw/UuvcwXnxnZ4/s1600/lehigh3.jpg

But be careful about unrealistic expectations - without them, what is there to aspire to? If not, before long, 8,000 to 9,000 will become 4,000 to 5,000.

[Go Green]

Apparently there are only five teams in the league, at least in the tone of this article.

Looks like Neighbor is onto something when he suggests more media coverage for the PL. :)

[Mattymc727]

Couple of weeks ago I stated how horrible a loss that was for UNH at Holy Cross. At the time, folks were telling me that HC was for real and we needed to respect them. I was never a believer in HC, I'm not a believer In UNH either. However, didn't think HC would crash so bad. HC literally face planted by following that game up with losses to Dartmouth and Lafayette...

Boy that was an ugly loss for UNH

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If only someone at Lehigh could have steered Goodman's gift into a full-scale rebuild at Taylor Stadium instead of in the valley.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xNeGxMSu-C4/VjtDMYCE2JI/AAAAAAAAAsw/UuvcwXnxnZ4/s1600/lehigh3.jpg

But be careful about unrealistic expectations - without them, what is there to aspire to? If not, before long, 8,000 to 9,000 will become 4,000 to 5,000.

It would have been difficult to pull off because where Taylor Stadium stood now stands the Rausch Business school (with a historical marker delineating that Taylor Stadium stood there). Georgetown isn't the only campus that has to deal with limited space for growth. I never was on campus for the Taylor Stadium days but undergrads loved the fact that they could party in frats (and sometimes classrooms) and then roll down the hill to go into the game whenever. And of course it was within walking distance of a lot of the steelworkers that lived in South Bethlehem.

[CFBfan]

So says STATS.

http://www.fcs.football/cfb/story.asp?i=20171004140608127526604&ref=hea&tm=&src=FCS

from the fan of a team that has 1 Ivy League tile in the last 20 years......so says the STATS

[Go Green]

from the fan of a team that has 1 Ivy League tile in the last 20 years......so says the STATS

Hopefully we will win another "tile" this season! :)

[KPSUL]

Hopefully we will win another "tile" this season! :)
Weren't you in a 3 way tie in 2015 ?

[DFW HOYA]

Hopefully we will win another "tile" this season! :)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Or5djePNA1Y/VxIk0Ku2_UI/AAAAAAAALyY/uA6cWlXXPB4pmPGa2PPneudFLNLYkiMZQCK4B/s1600/screenshot_1532.jpg

[Go Green]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Or5djePNA1Y/VxIk0Ku2_UI/AAAAAAAALyY/uA6cWlXXPB4pmPGa2PPneudFLNLYkiMZQCK4B/s1600/screenshot_1532.jpg

My understanding is that they didn't give out rings until the late 1970s. Prior to that, they gave out individual trophies to members of championship teams. A few guys on the early 1970s and earlier teams told me that they would rather have received rings.

I own three of those pictured above. :)

[Bill]

Apparently there are only five teams in the league, at least in the tone of this article.



If only someone at Lehigh could have steered Goodman's gift into a full-scale rebuild at Taylor Stadium instead of in the valley.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xNeGxMSu-C4/VjtDMYCE2JI/AAAAAAAAAsw/UuvcwXnxnZ4/s1600/lehigh3.jpg

But be careful about unrealistic expectations - without them, what is there to aspire to? If not, before long, 8,000 to 9,000 will become 4,000 to 5,000.

DFW - I LOVE your take on this one. Much like LFN, I never actually played/practiced/coached in Taylor. It was still there during part of my time at Lehigh, but we did everything on the other side of the mountain by then. I agree, the power that be should have found a way to keep Taylor afloat. There is plenty of room on Lehigh's campus - including mountain top campus AND above ATO and the other frats- to build or reconfigure. However, I truly believe that LU's administration does not care as much about running a first class D1 athletic department as others may think. During my time on staff there, I was STUNNED to see what money was NOT spent on athletics...things that a few DIII schools I worked at were doing. Lots of little things can definitely add up to big things.

[citdog]

How can ANYONE be shocked that the football in the patsy league sucks? PLEASE get to DIII where you belong and take the pioneer, meac, swac, and ivy with you. YOU are an EMBARRASSMENT to the rest of us. JUST GET THE **** OUT!!!!

[PAllen]

Never meant to overlook your EXCELLENT work, Chuck! I've enjoyed reading you for years. To clarify, I refer to local, 'General Audience' coverage/promotions. The Lehigh Valley region has grown to about 750,000 persons. A better than average FCS football program here should be able to regularly draw 12,000 to a home game. That requires mining new fans. Mainstream local media is being underutilized, I think. You are a great source for existing Lehigh fans, more so than newbies.

There is also the matter of low Lehigh student attendance numbers. Bus service over the mountain needs to be run in a continuous loop beginning at 10am. No student should have to wait more than 10-15 minutes to depart from campus, or to return.

I just don't see the effort to create a fun, engaging and exciting afternoon for all ages.

That's the way it was in the mid 90s, except the more frequent buses (every 10 minutes instead of 30 over the mountain) started at 9AM.

[Sader87]

How can ANYONE be shocked that the football in the patsy league sucks? PLEASE get to DIII where you belong and take the pioneer, meac, swac, and ivy with you. YOU are an EMBARRASSMENT to the rest of us. JUST GET THE **** OUT!!!!

I'd argue that if you took those leagues out of the FCS, the entire level would collapse shortly after.

Like it or not but the FCS-level is almost defined by the Ivies, the Patriots (historically etc) and the MEAC and SWAC (attendance-wise, historically etc)....take those leagues out of the FCS and you basically just have directional, state schools that are really no different than D2 and D3 programs to most people around the country.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How can ANYONE be shocked that the football in the patsy league sucks? PLEASE get to DIII where you belong and take the pioneer, meac, swac, and ivy with you. YOU are an EMBARRASSMENT to the rest of us. JUST GET THE **** OUT!!!!

TOUCHDOWN, Samford!

[Go...gate]

It would have been difficult to pull off because where Taylor Stadium stood now stands the Rausch Business school (with a historical marker delineating that Taylor Stadium stood there). Georgetown isn't the only campus that has to deal with limited space for growth. I never was on campus for the Taylor Stadium days but undergrads loved the fact that they could party in frats (and sometimes classrooms) and then roll down the hill to go into the game whenever. And of course it was within walking distance of a lot of the steelworkers that lived in South Bethlehem.

Taylor Stadium was a great place to watch a football game.

[Go...gate]

How can ANYONE be shocked that the football in the patsy league sucks? PLEASE get to DIII where you belong and take the pioneer, meac, swac, and ivy with you. YOU are an EMBARRASSMENT to the rest of us. JUST GET THE **** OUT!!!!

You guys have had your difficult times, as well.

[UNHWildcat18]

I'd argue that if you took those leagues out of the FCS, the entire level would collapse shortly after.

Like it or not but the FCS-level is almost defined by the Ivies, the Patriots (historically etc) and the MEAC and SWAC (attendance-wise, historically etc)....take those leagues out of the FCS and you basically just have directional, state schools that are really no different than D2 and D3 programs to most people around the country.

I agree with all of this.....except the pioneer league, I wish they got lost. However I guess beating a team like marist is still a D1 win even though they'd probably lose to the top new england division 2 teams. Those leagues may not mean **** in terms of playoffs but they are important like you have said.

[Go Green]

Apparently there are only five teams in the league, at least in the tone of this article.



If only someone at Lehigh could have steered Goodman's gift into a full-scale rebuild at Taylor Stadium instead of in the valley.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xNeGxMSu-C4/VjtDMYCE2JI/AAAAAAAAAsw/UuvcwXnxnZ4/s1600/lehigh3.jpg

But be careful about unrealistic expectations - without them, what is there to aspire to? If not, before long, 8,000 to 9,000 will become 4,000 to 5,000.

From that view, Taylor looks like the football equivalent of Penn's Palestra.

As for the decision to build the new stadium, my understanding is that Lehigh games were well-attended at the new place for a good 10 years. Administrators can only see so far into the future...

[Neighbor2]

From that view, Taylor looks like the football equivalent of Penn's Palestra.

As for the decision to build the new stadium, my understanding is that Lehigh games were well-attended at the new place for a good 10 years. Administrators can only see so far into the future...

The football environment at Taylor Stadium was as incredible as we older fans describe it. I was a long time season ticket holder there having seen at least 100 games. Yes, it was old and rickety, all the lower level seats were hard concrete covered by some sort of peeling, black, top layer, and the tiny restrooms had leaky steam pipes directly in front of the urinals. But what that place had was a magical, electric, and engaging fan experience. The grandstand was just a few yards from the sidelines. We heard all the shoulder pads crashing, the groans, and the profanity-laced tirades from Coach Whitehead. One could even verbally badger opposing players . . . and they reacted in kind. Ask Joe Sterrett. He quarterbacked Lehigh at Taylor.

Goodman Stadium is the complete opposite. Fans way too far from the field of play. It's difficult for a crowd to really 'get into' the experience. Yes, it's roomy, has beautiful background scenery, etc., but the football fan experience stinks in an emotional way. There's no 'there' there.

[Reign of Terrier]

I'd argue that if you took those leagues out of the FCS, the entire level would collapse shortly after.

Like it or not but the FCS-level is almost defined by the Ivies, the Patriots (historically etc) and the MEAC and SWAC (attendance-wise, historically etc)....take those leagues out of the FCS and you basically just have directional, state schools that are really no different than D2 and D3 programs to most people around the country.

I've never thought of kicking out the aforementioned conferences, but I've also never thought of their significance in the way described above

[LUHawker]

The football environment at Taylor Stadium was as incredible as we older fans describe it. I was a long time season ticket holder there having seen at least 100 games. Yes, it was old and rickety, all the lower level seats were hard concrete covered by some sort of peeling, black, top layer, and the tiny restrooms had leaky steam pipes directly in front of the urinals. But what that place had was a magical, electric, and engaging fan experience. The grandstand was just a few yards from the sidelines. We heard all the shoulder pads crashing, the groans, and the profanity-laced tirades from Coach Whitehead. One could even verbally badger opposing players . . . and they reacted in kind. Ask Joe Sterrett. He quarterbacked Lehigh at Taylor.

Goodman Stadium is the complete opposite. Fans way too far from the field of play. It's difficult for a crowd to really 'get into' the experience. Yes, it's roomy, has beautiful background scenery, etc., but the football fan experience stinks in an emotional way. There's no 'there' there.

I never had the pleasure of attending a game at Taylor Stadium so I can't make a comparison to Goodman. However, I can say that for at least 20+ years, the experience at Goodman was really good. Goodman has a "big-time" feel to it, phenomenal tailgating atmosphere for both adults and kids alike and for most of those years, attendance was good and there was some real "Goodman Magic" at times.

Those days seem to be in the distant past. Attendance is down, especially among students as far as I can tell and the entire game day experience is bland and stale. Here are the issues as I see them:


12:30pm or 12 noon start-times vs. the 1pm times of the 90s - this is a really big deal in my mind. That extra half/hour or hour of time for travel or tailgating makes a bid deal and I believe is a real reason why attendance has drifted down steadily
No lights - my kids play under lights for every sport available, yet wealthy Lehigh can't find $$ for lights. A couple of night games per year would improve attendance and add some novelty to the experience.
No video board. We all walk around with screens in our pockets, but Lehigh still thinks its 1985. Give me a break.
Embarrassing speaker system. When you've got to roll DJ speakers out onto the field, you know you're not trying.
Admin has slowly killed off the Lehigh social scene and student tailgating. Going to games used to be an all-day event that you didn't miss - not so much anymore.


I could go on, but in short, Lehigh isn't trying to make it a real experience. I don't expect "Big-Time" football environment, but I also don't expect high school either. Neighbor is right that the experience is lacking. In more years than not, the product on the field made up for the "experience", but this year, that is also a downer.

[RichH2]

I never had the pleasure of attending a game at Taylor Stadium so I can't make a comparison to Goodman. However, I can say that for at least 20+ years, the experience at Goodman was really good. Goodman has a "big-time" feel to it, phenomenal tailgating atmosphere for both adults and kids alike and for most of those years, attendance was good and there was some real "Goodman Magic" at times.

Those days seem to be in the distant past. Attendance is down, especially among students as far as I can tell and the entire game day experience is bland and stale. Here are the issues as I see them:


12:30pm or 12 noon start-times vs. the 1pm times of the 90s - this is a really big deal in my mind. That extra half/hour or hour of time for travel or tailgating makes a bid deal and I believe is a real reason why attendance has drifted down steadily
No lights - my kids play under lights for every sport available, yet wealthy Lehigh can't find $$ for lights. A couple of night games per year would improve attendance and add some novelty to the experience.
No video board. We all walk around with screens in our pockets, but Lehigh still thinks its 1985. Give me a break.
Embarrassing speaker system. When you've got to roll DJ speakers out onto the field, you know you're not trying.
Admin has slowly killed off the Lehigh social scene and student tailgating. Going to games used to be an all-day event that you didn't miss - not so much anymore.


I could go on, but in short, Lehigh isn't trying to make it a real experience. I don't expect "Big-Time" football environment, but I also don't expect high school either. Neighbor is right that the experience is lacking. In more years than not, the product on the field made up for the "experience", but this year, that is also a downer.
Lehigh has finally started to modify student tailgating rules . Lehigh modifying all alcohol regs to bring social life back onto campus. The practically total ban basically killed Houseparty weekends on the Hill. Students moved parties off campus. LU finally realizing the consequences of being shortsighted.

[CHIP72]

You guys have had your difficult times, as well.

Yeah, like in 1865 with Sherman. xnodxxnodxxlolxxlolx

[Go...gate]

Yeah, like in 1865 with Sherman. xnodxxnodxxlolxxlolx

Sherman had a hell of a running game there. Just hand the ball to the Union army and move the chains.

[Franks Tanks]

Lights help a great deal. Lafayette had nearly 8k for a night game against Princeton although we were coming off that 59-0 loss to Nova.

Games at more convenient times and good tesms should result in 7k ish per game at Laf and Lehigh.

[PAllen]

I never had the pleasure of attending a game at Taylor Stadium so I can't make a comparison to Goodman. However, I can say that for at least 20+ years, the experience at Goodman was really good. Goodman has a "big-time" feel to it, phenomenal tailgating atmosphere for both adults and kids alike and for most of those years, attendance was good and there was some real "Goodman Magic" at times.

Those days seem to be in the distant past. Attendance is down, especially among students as far as I can tell and the entire game day experience is bland and stale. Here are the issues as I see them:


12:30pm or 12 noon start-times vs. the 1pm times of the 90s - this is a really big deal in my mind. That extra half/hour or hour of time for travel or tailgating makes a bid deal and I believe is a real reason why attendance has drifted down steadily
No lights - my kids play under lights for every sport available, yet wealthy Lehigh can't find $$ for lights. A couple of night games per year would improve attendance and add some novelty to the experience.
No video board. We all walk around with screens in our pockets, but Lehigh still thinks its 1985. Give me a break.
Embarrassing speaker system. When you've got to roll DJ speakers out onto the field, you know you're not trying.
Admin has slowly killed off the Lehigh social scene and student tailgating. Going to games used to be an all-day event that you didn't miss - not so much anymore.


I could go on, but in short, Lehigh isn't trying to make it a real experience. I don't expect "Big-Time" football environment, but I also don't expect high school either. Neighbor is right that the experience is lacking. In more years than not, the product on the field made up for the "experience", but this year, that is also a downer.

Unfortunately, the last few administrations have killed off the social scene and historical feel of Lehigh in general. Most of the things that made Lehigh special are gone.

[Sader87]

Unfortunately, the last few administrations have killed off the social scene and historical feel of Lehigh in general. Most of the things that made Lehigh special are gone.

Same at HC for the most part.....rarely see many students or younger alums under 40 or so (forget about locals) at Fitton to tailgate/go to the games like they did in the 1980s.

I've often said/posted that Holy Cross has the oldest fan-base in the country.....average age must be about 55.

[CHIP72]

Lights help a great deal. Lafayette had nearly 8k for a night game against Princeton although we were coming off that 59-0 loss to Nova.

Games at more convenient times and good teams should result in 7k ish per game at Laf and Lehigh.

FWIW, I've attended Lehigh and Lafayette home games on the same day 7 of the last 8 seasons and the last 6 seasons in a row (2010-2017). (I also attended a Lehigh home game in 2011.) Most of those games took place in September (the one exception was in early October), and obviously all of them had Lehigh playing a day game and Lafayette playing a night game. (I think most of Lafayette's games took place on Family Day, which is a higher attendance game for the Leopards, and in most cases the weather is fairly warm during the day in September, which may hurt Lehigh's attendance.) When comparing the attendance for Lehigh's and Lafayette's respective games:

*Lafayette has outdrawn Lehigh in 5 of the 7 seasons, including every year since 2014.
*In the years Lafayette has outdrawn Lehigh, they have done so by a minimum of almost 1800 fans for every game.
*In the years Lehigh has outdrawn Lafayette, they have done so by less than 550 fans in each game.
*Lafayette has drawn at least 6238 fans to every game, and has attracted over 7000 fans to their games in 5 of the 7 seasons in which I've seen them play at home, including every year since 2014 (highest total was 9173 fans).
*Lehigh has drawn at least 5025 fans to every game, has attracted over 7000 fans to their games in just 2 of the 8 seasons in which I've seen them play at home and not since 2011 (highest total was 8168 fans), and has failed to draw at least 6000 fans in 4 of the 8 seasons, including 3 of the last 4 seasons.

I just wanted to throw those statistics out to enhance the discussion.

[ElCid]

I'd argue that if you took those leagues out of the FCS, the entire level would collapse shortly after.

Like it or not but the FCS-level is almost defined by the Ivies, the Patriots (historically etc) and the MEAC and SWAC (attendance-wise, historically etc)....take those leagues out of the FCS and you basically just have directional, state schools that are really no different than D2 and D3 programs to most people around the country.

I would not say that. Although I certainly don't agree with putting them out, the importance of those schools are not that great, especially the Ivies or Pats, outside of the NE or their alumni circles with diehard football fans. Having grown up in the NE in the midst of these conferences and then having gone down south, the excitement level between the NE and the south regarding football in general, including FCS football, is night and day. Now most of my time up north was prior to the "FCS" days, but I have spent some time up north recently and have family there, and outside of mostly alumni support (dwindling support), NE college football, and especially FCS football, is either an unknown or a faint memory to most. The MEACs and the SWACs have a much bigger appeal due to their HBU niche and being down in football land. I don't have a good feel how the average fan in the midwest and west feel but I bet if you asked the average farmer in SD if they thought Lehigh would get into the playoffs, they would have never heard of them. I will not even get into the fact that since the Ivies do not participate in the playoffs, they are all but ignored by most most non-alumni football fans down south and probably everywhere outside of the NE.

Just a different perspective.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Apparently there are only five teams in the league, at least in the tone of this article.



If only someone at Lehigh could have steered Goodman's gift into a full-scale rebuild at Taylor Stadium instead of in the valley.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xNeGxMSu-C4/VjtDMYCE2JI/AAAAAAAAAsw/UuvcwXnxnZ4/s1600/lehigh3.jpg

But be careful about unrealistic expectations - without them, what is there to aspire to? If not, before long, 8,000 to 9,000 will become 4,000 to 5,000.

I remember Taylor Stadium just enough to have some perspective. (In fact I know who has that original pic of Taylor/Lehigh-Lafayette '87 among a few others) What I do remember is having to park several blocks west of the stadium. My guess is somewhere near the old bookstore use to be? I remember always sitting in the concrete bowl behind the Lehigh bench. I'm pretty sure you walked down onto the field to enter/exit the seating area. I never recall sitting in the upper level metal bleacher area. Taylor was the perfect place to watch a game. Just the right size, about 23k, and with the way it was built into the hill the noise stayed in.

I see no problems with Goodman and its location. The place was a gem until for whatever reason the crowds dwindled. Lehigh had easily one of the top 1AA fan bases in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic for the first 25+ years of the subdivisions existence. Lehigh sold out (look it up) a game against Bucknell in 2000! One of the common pictures of Goodman on the internet is from that game. With all that said, the stadium needs some upgrades with lights being the #1. It would completely change the vibe of the place and its setting. The early season games suck when its hot. I have no interest in attending them unless it's a helluva matchup.

[ngineer]

Apparently there are only five teams in the league, at least in the tone of this article.



If only someone at Lehigh could have steered Goodman's gift into a full-scale rebuild at Taylor Stadium instead of in the valley.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xNeGxMSu-C4/VjtDMYCE2JI/AAAAAAAAAsw/UuvcwXnxnZ4/s1600/lehigh3.jpg

But be careful about unrealistic expectations - without them, what is there to aspire to? If not, before long, 8,000 to 9,000 will become 4,000 to 5,000.
Great Pic of ol' Taylor. I loved that place (though the 'amenities' were the pits). The steel upper deck made a hellava noise. As for the gift, the driving force for the new stadium was the University's need to build a new Business College and new other land available, then, other than Taylor.

[ngineer]

Unfortunately, the last few administrations have killed off the social scene and historical feel of Lehigh in general. Most of the things that made Lehigh special are gone.

+1 Excellent points

[Bill]

FWIW, I've attended Lehigh and Lafayette home games on the same day 7 of the last 8 seasons and the last 6 seasons in a row (2010-2017). (I also attended a Lehigh home game in 2011.) Most of those games took place in September (the one exception was in early October), and obviously all of them had Lehigh playing a day game and Lafayette playing a night game. (I think most of Lafayette's games took place on Family Day, which is a higher attendance game for the Leopards, and in most cases the weather is fairly warm during the day in September, which may hurt Lehigh's attendance.) When comparing the attendance for Lehigh's and Lafayette's respective games:

*Lafayette has outdrawn Lehigh in 5 of the 7 seasons, including every year since 2014.
*In the years Lafayette has outdrawn Lehigh, they have done so by a minimum of almost 1800 fans for every game.
*In the years Lehigh has outdrawn Lafayette, they have done so by less than 550 fans in each game.
*Lafayette has drawn at least 6238 fans to every game, and has attracted over 7000 fans to their games in 5 of the 7 seasons in which I've seen them play at home, including every year since 2014 (highest total was 9173 fans).
*Lehigh has drawn at least 5025 fans to every game, has attracted over 7000 fans to their games in just 2 of the 8 seasons in which I've seen them play at home and not since 2011 (highest total was 8168 fans), and has failed to draw at least 6000 fans in 4 of the 8 seasons, including 3 of the last 4 seasons.

I just wanted to throw those statistics out to enhance the discussion.

Chip,
That is interesting. I have to think one of the issues with Lehigh is simply the location of Goodman. Students can't walk to the games - the effort of having to drive/take a bus makes it a chore for all but the die hard fan...and lets face it, most PL teams don't have a die hard student body. We'll see what happens when/if the administration does relax the social policies.

[DFW HOYA]

Standings at the halfway mark of the season. There will be no at-large entrants this year.

Lafayette (2-0 PL, 2-4 overall)
Lehigh (1-0 PL, 1-5 overall)
Holy Cross (1-1 PL, 2-4 overall)
Georgetown (0-0 PL, 1-4 overall)
Bucknell (0-1 PL, 2-3 overall)
Colgate (0-1 PL, 2-4 overall)
Fordham (0-1 PL, 1-5 overall)

Non-Conference Total: 7-29

[dgtw]

Has an autobid team ever had a losing record?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Has an autobid team ever had a losing record?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fitting, Lafayette was 5-6 and won the PL autobid, and we're waiting to see how they're going to do against New Hampshire

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Standings at the halfway mark of the season. There will be no at-large entrants this year.

Lafayette (2-0 PL, 2-4 overall)
Lehigh (1-0 PL, 1-5 overall)
Holy Cross (1-1 PL, 2-4 overall)
Georgetown (0-0 PL, 1-4 overall)
Bucknell (0-1 PL, 2-3 overall)
Colgate (0-1 PL, 2-4 overall)
Fordham (0-1 PL, 1-5 overall)

Non-Conference Total: 7-29

It is an ugly kind of beautiful.

[hawkineer]

Perhaps we shouldn't complain about the Goodman scoreboard xsmiley_wixhttp://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26256&stc=1
Coldest friggin' game that I ever attended. 1987 LU-LC game - last one at Taylor.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26255&stc=1
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26257&stc=1

[CHIP72]

I didn't stay paying attention to Lehigh football until long after Taylor Stadium was torn down, but I still remember the Bethlehem Globe-Times. I also still call the daily newspaper in Northampton County's seat of government the Easton Express, even though it merged with Globe-Times about 25 years ago (either 1991 or 1992, I forget the exact year).

[Sader87]

I would not say that. Although I certainly don't agree with putting them out, the importance of those schools are not that great, especially the Ivies or Pats, outside of the NE or their alumni circles with diehard football fans. Having grown up in the NE in the midst of these conferences and then having gone down south, the excitement level between the NE and the south regarding football in general, including FCS football, is night and day. Now most of my time up north was prior to the "FCS" days, but I have spent some time up north recently and have family there, and outside of mostly alumni support (dwindling support), NE college football, and especially FCS football, is either an unknown or a faint memory to most. The MEACs and the SWACs have a much bigger appeal due to their HBU niche and being down in football land. I don't have a good feel how the average fan in the midwest and west feel but I bet if you asked the average farmer in SD if they thought Lehigh would get into the playoffs, they would have never heard of them. I will not even get into the fact that since the Ivies do not participate in the playoffs, they are all but ignored by most most non-alumni football fans down south and probably everywhere outside of the NE.

Just a different perspective.

I don't disagree with you in terms of fan support or the relevance of say Cornell or Holy Cross to people in the South, Midwest etc.

Point being though, the Ivy League and Patriot League bring a lot of historical perspective to the FCS level of football. If you took those two leagues out of the FCS (not that it will happen) you'd be left with a level of football basically made up mostly of programs that played D2/D3 for much of their existence, are very new etc....essentially a level of football that isn't that different or distinct from D2/D3 football today in terms of history etc...they may not be missed on the field of play per se but their absence in the FCS would leave a void that really couldn't be replaced imo

[RichH2]

Perhaps we shouldn't complain about the Goodman scoreboard xsmiley_wixhttp://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26256&stc=1
Coldest friggin' game that I ever attended. 1987 LU-LC game - last one at Taylor.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26255&stc=1
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26257&stc=1

I still have frostbite from that game. Admit left game about5 mins into 3rd period. Went to Rosie's had 2 Rusty Nails to warm up.
Globe-Times. Wow. Do remember their building. Only because we passed it going to the Greekers.

[ngineer]

Chip,
That is interesting. I have to think one of the issues with Lehigh is simply the location of Goodman. Students can't walk to the games - the effort of having to drive/take a bus makes it a chore for all but the die hard fan...and lets face it, most PL teams don't have a die hard student body. We'll see what happens when/if the administration does relax the social policies.

Goodman was in the same place when we were averaging over 10,000 a game 17 years ago. It aint the stadium. It's the product.

[ngineer]

Great pics. I remember the scoreboard when the clock was a REAL CLOCK, i.e. a round face, and two hands!

[LUHawker]

Chip,
That is interesting. I have to think one of the issues with Lehigh is simply the location of Goodman. Students can't walk to the games - the effort of having to drive/take a bus makes it a chore for all but the die hard fan...and lets face it, most PL teams don't have a die hard student body. We'll see what happens when/if the administration does relax the social policies.

Getting to the game in the early 90's as a student was never a problem. There were always buses or others driving over the mountain. Plenty of hitchhiking students just started up the Hill and got picked up. Attendance was always strong even if a lot of students never made it to the game. Lehigh admin killed off the awesome tailgating - that's why students don't go anymore. Game day was an event then.

[Sader87]

Again, I don't think Lehigh is unique here.

I'm an old SoB but tailgating/game enthusiasm was so much higher at places like HC, Dartmouth, Harvard, Colgate etc when I was a student in the 80s and then a young alum into the 90s. It's basically died off at all those places for the reasons mentioned here (stricter alcohol policies, cell phone/internet, people seem to be busier on Saturdays now etc etc)

The new normal for a really well attended FCS game in the Northeast is about 10K imo. We'll be lucky to get 5-7K for most games now....

[KPSUL]

I nominate this thread to replace "Lafayette @ UNH" as AnyGivenSaturday's one enduring thread!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Coldest friggin' game that I ever attended. 1987 LU-LC game - last one at Taylor.[/IMG]

Uh-huh. I was there. It was the wind - just brutal.

- - - Updated - - -


I nominate this thread to replace "Lafayette @ UNH" as AnyGivenSaturday's one enduring thread!

Never. In fact I shall soon resurrect it.

[UNHWildcat18]

I just want to personally congratulate the 2017 PATRIOT LEAGUE CHAMPS!!!!! LET'S HEAR IT FOR YOUR MONMOUTH HAWKS!!!!1!!111!!!11!!!!1!!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Again, I don't think Lehigh is unique here.

I'm an old SoB but tailgating/game enthusiasm was so much higher at places like HC, Dartmouth, Harvard, Colgate etc when I was a student in the 80s and then a young alum into the 90s. It's basically died off at all those places for the reasons mentioned here (stricter alcohol policies, cell phone/internet, people seem to be busier on Saturdays now etc etc)

The new normal for a really well attended FCS game in the Northeast is about 10K imo. We'll be lucky to get 5-7K for most games now....

The party that is a football tailgate has changed over the course of the years. Lehigh and Lafayette are lucky in that we have such an intense Rivalry and tailgating on that one day a year is so ingrained in the culture of both places that it seems inconceivable to have it go. The trouble is - again, at least at Lehigh - is that it seemed to beg this tradeoff that football fans and friends will get The Rivalry party, but at the expense of the other games of the season. I think that's the big difference between Lehigh and a place like Cross, where your big football Rival went a different direction, even though the same institutional and cultural anti-football feelings exist.

It does seem once you get to State College in PA and into Virginia and further South, people think of it as normal to spend an entire day smoking pork, spending three hours in the parking lot outside a college football game and making a day of attending a game. To me, Bethlehem and Easton are the gateway to that world, but not completely in it the way it once was.

[Engineer86]

Lehigh has finally started to modify student tailgating rules . Lehigh modifying all alcohol regs to bring social life back onto campus. The practically total ban basically killed Houseparty weekends on the Hill. Students moved parties off campus. LU finally realizing the consequences of being shortsighted.

Hardly, and given the past year, it is hard to blame the administration, there are plenty of reasons for the latest crackdown, but the administration is hardly loosening the rules.

[Go...gate]

I just want to personally congratulate the 2017 PATRIOT LEAGUE CHAMPS!!!!! LET'S HEAR IT FOR YOUR MONMOUTH HAWKS!!!!1!!111!!!11!!!!1!!

So, when Monmouth wins the Big South, they get to play Double-Elimination!

[Sader87]

The party that is a football tailgate has changed over the course of the years. Lehigh and Lafayette are lucky in that we have such an intense Rivalry and tailgating on that one day a year is so ingrained in the culture of both places that it seems inconceivable to have it go. The trouble is - again, at least at Lehigh - is that it seemed to beg this tradeoff that football fans and friends will get The Rivalry party, but at the expense of the other games of the season. I think that's the big difference between Lehigh and a place like Cross, where your big football Rival went a different direction, even though the same institutional and cultural anti-football feelings exist.



It does seem once you get to State College in PA and into Virginia and further South, people think of it as normal to spend an entire day smoking pork, spending three hours in the parking lot outside a college football game and making a day of attending a game. To me, Bethlehem and Easton are the gateway to that world, but not completely in it the way it once was.

Another thing that has hurt college football attendance in Massachusetts is the rise of the Patriots since around 2000. This probably hurt BC the most as they are really the only program in New England that has been FBS through the years...they've lost a lot of subway alumni over the last 20 odd years. Other programs have probably felt this a bit too including HC.

[DFW HOYA]

PL Attendance, Oct 14:

Georgetown at Lehigh: 4,438
Fordham at Colgate: 2,622

[Sader87]

Holy Cross just turned in one of its worst performances (with scholarships) evah today in New Haven....the beat goes on.

[aceinthehole]

PL Attendance, Oct 14:

Georgetown at Lehigh: 4,438
Fordham at Colgate: 2,622

5,569 for Dartmouth-SHU at Fairfield, Conn.
3,069 for SFU-Bryant at Smithfield, R.I.

NEC attendance has been better than the PL as well :)

[Go...gate]

PL Attendance, Oct 14:

Georgetown at Lehigh: 4,438
Fordham at Colgate: 2,622

Not a good sign.

[Schism55]

Bump

[citdog]

The patsy league is a JOKE. DAVIDSON would challenge for the patsy league championship this year....

[Go...gate]

It has not been a vintage year for the PL but all programs and conferences have their share of down years.

[van]

It has not been a vintage year for the PL but all programs and conferences have their share of down years.

vintage year when there are 2 playoff worthy teams, this has been verrrrrry far from a vintage year

[DFW HOYA]

This discussion begs a follow up question: is this an aberration or the beginning of a trend?

[RichH2]

This discussion begs a follow up question: is this an aberration or the beginning of a trend?

Likely not a trend given the large number of underclassmen, particularly frosh, on most every 2 deep.

[Go Green]

Not a good sign.

I'm guessing that the Ivy League attendance as a whole in 2017 is down yet again. Dartmouth and Columbia may see marginal increases from last year. And with both Harvard and Yale still in contention, The Game at the Bowl may boost our numbers.

[Doc QB]

This discussion begs a follow up question: is this an aberration or the beginning of a trend?

It will become a trend depending on some coaching hirings/firings. First, LC has a guy w some CAA experience, recruiting higher level athletes, and not falling into a PL trap of offering scholarahip to a kid u would have gotten in the need based days. HC would need to find a guy without PL or IVY roots, one that is a OC/DC from a bigger program who has recruited better talent. LU needs to clean house on D, also with a non-Ivy/PL guy at DC.

Each school needs better salaries for coordinators and position coaches. Its clearly a reason why coaches in PL move on, why we have a proliferation of DIII and first time position coaches, and why our talent hasnt developed. Look at a few places like Columbia, UNH, UPenn...they have coordinators who came from bigger places or were prior head coaches. That takes bucks and school salary commitment. Bagnoli's recipe at Columbia aint a secret, he got more money for asstistants and staff, same kids, more W's.

And if it is a trend, the same coaches and their inability to attract and develop talent is more to blame than AIs, redshirts, and another common complaint here...depth. Sure the AI and RS is an advantage, but there were years we have been way more competitive, and the AI and RS issue didnt seem to hold us back...we had better coaching and better talent evaluation.

Depth is overblown. 100+ kids on the roster is just more guys holding bags on the scout teams. Hoping your next super star is an overlooked walk on is no way to build a program. You only have time to prepare 22 guys on a side each week. There just isnt enough minutes to give four deep first team reps. If you have played, you've seen it. 63 CAA scholarships or almost 60 with most PLs, u still have 20 newbies, redshirting or not, not getting game day prep reps. Why do we struggle if we have to start playing a third teamer as compared to the CAA? Their unerclassman third teamer would start for us, thats why. And that goes to better talent on the roster, that talent getting there by better talent evaluators and better development. It aint depth related to a numbers game, its simply a better 60 kids.

[carney2]

Depth is overblown. 100+ kids on the roster is just more guys holding bags on the scout teams. Hoping your next super star is an overlooked walk on is no way to build a program. You only have time to prepare 22 guys on a side each week. There just isnt enough minutes to give four deep first team reps. If you have played, you've seen it. 63 CAA scholarships or almost 60 with most PLs, u still have 20 newbies, redshirting or not, not getting game day prep reps. Why do we struggle if we have to start playing a third teamer as compared to the CAA? Their unerclassman third teamer would start for us, thats why. And that goes to better talent on the roster, that talent getting there by better talent evaluators and better development. It aint depth related to a numbers game, its simply a better 60 kids.

There you have it! Take your arguments about the AI and redshirting and stuff them where the sun doesn't shine. It's your two-deep. It's consistently terrible recruiting.

[van]

It will become a trend depending on some coaching hirings/firings. First, LC has a guy w some CAA experience, recruiting higher level athletes, and not falling into a PL trap of offering scholarahip to a kid u would have gotten in the need based days. HC would need to find a guy without PL or IVY roots, one that is a OC/DC from a bigger program who has recruited better talent. LU needs to clean house on D, also with a non-Ivy/PL guy at DC.

Each school needs better salaries for coordinators and position coaches. Its clearly a reason why coaches in PL move on, why we have a proliferation of DIII and first time position coaches, and why our talent hasnt developed. Look at a few places like Columbia, UNH, UPenn...they have coordinators who came from bigger places or were prior head coaches. That takes bucks and school salary commitment. Bagnoli's recipe at Columbia aint a secret, he got more money for asstistants and staff, same kids, more W's.

And if it is a trend, the same coaches and their inability to attract and develop talent is more to blame than AIs, redshirts, and another common complaint here...depth. Sure the AI and RS is an advantage, but there were years we have been way more competitive, and the AI and RS issue didnt seem to hold us back...we had better coaching and better talent evaluation.

Depth is overblown. 100+ kids on the roster is just more guys holding bags on the scout teams. Hoping your next super star is an overlooked walk on is no way to build a program. You only have time to prepare 22 guys on a side each week. There just isnt enough minutes to give four deep first team reps. If you have played, you've seen it. 63 CAA scholarships or almost 60 with most PLs, u still have 20 newbies, redshirting or not, not getting game day prep reps. Why do we struggle if we have to start playing a third teamer as compared to the CAA? Their unerclassman third teamer would start for us, thats why. And that goes to better talent on the roster, that talent getting there by better talent evaluators and better development. It aint depth related to a numbers game, its simply a better 60 kids.

+1

[Go Green]

And that goes to better talent on the roster, that talent getting there by better talent evaluators and better development. It aint depth related to a numbers game, its simply a better 60 kids.

Former Dartmouth head coach John Lyons said that he'd be happy to only get 15 admissions slots for football recruits a year so long as they were guys who could really play (i.e., get rid of the AI). And the rest could be walkons under normal admissions standards.

His views did not prevail.

[DFW HOYA]

Former Dartmouth head coach John Lyons said that he'd be happy to only get 15 admissions slots for football recruits a year so long as they were guys who could really play (i.e., get rid of the AI). And the rest could be walkons under normal admissions standards.

His views did not prevail.

15? Imagine if Georgetown could get half that.

[RichH2]

It will become a trend depending on some coaching hirings/firings. First, LC has a guy w some CAA experience, recruiting higher level athletes, and not falling into a PL trap of offering scholarahip to a kid u would have gotten in the need based days. HC would need to find a guy without PL or IVY roots, one that is a OC/DC from a bigger program who has recruited better talent. LU needs to clean house on D, also with a non-Ivy/PL guy at DC.

Each school needs better salaries for coordinators and position coaches. Its clearly a reason why coaches in PL move on, why we have a proliferation of DIII and first time position coaches, and why our talent hasnt developed. Look at a few places like Columbia, UNH, UPenn...they have coordinators who came from bigger places or were prior head coaches. That takes bucks and school salary commitment. Bagnoli's recipe at Columbia aint a secret, he got more money for asstistants and staff, same kids, more W's.

And if it is a trend, the same coaches and their inability to attract and develop talent is more to blame than AIs, redshirts, and another common complaint here...depth. Sure the AI and RS is an advantage, but there were years we have been way more competitive, and the AI and RS issue didnt seem to hold us back...we had better coaching and better talent evaluation.

Depth is overblown. 100+ kids on the roster is just more guys holding bags on the scout teams. Hoping your next super star is an overlooked walk on is no way to build a program. You only have time to prepare 22 guys on a side each week. There just isnt enough minutes to give four deep first team reps. If you have played, you've seen it. 63 CAA scholarships or almost 60 with most PLs, u still have 20 newbies, redshirting or not, not getting game day prep reps. Why do we struggle if we have to start playing a third teamer as compared to the CAA? Their unerclassman third teamer would start for us, thats why. And that goes to better talent on the roster, that talent getting there by better talent evaluators and better development. It aint depth related to a numbers game, its simply a better 60 kids.

Pretty accurate analysis of the first 2-3 years of PL recruiting. Some hits some missies but prevalence of pre schollie talent is evident. The last 2 years staffs have started to actually target and get better talent. Part of the reason IMO for this year's slump. One only has to scan the 2 deeps to see lots of frosh and soph players. LU is paying a big price for the delay in adapting to schollie recruiting specifically on D. We have 8 frosh on the 2 deep there because they are significantly more talented than the upperclassmen but with zero experience. It is even more apoarent in the current verbals around the league. Practically all have multple FBS, Ivy and/or power FCS offers. The learning process has been slower than anticipated ,at least by me :), but I do believe some of us have turned the corner.

[ngineer]

Pretty accurate analysis of the first 2-3 years of PL recruiting. Some hits some missies but prevalence of pre schollie talent is evident. The last 2 years staffs have started to actually target and get better talent. Part of the reason IMO for this year's slump. One only has to scan the 2 deeps to see lots of frosh and soph players. LU is paying a big price for the delay in adapting to schollie recruiting specifically on D. We have 8 frosh on the 2 deep there because they are significantly more talented than the upperclassmen but with zero experience. It is even more apoarent in the current verbals around the league. Practically all have multple FBS, Ivy and/or power FCS offers. The learning process has been slower than anticipated ,at least by me :), but I do believe some of us have turned the corner.

Good points. Our roster certainly shows a plethora of freshman on the field now, of course, some to the rash of injuries the past few weeks. I believe our skill level has improved, but I don't think we have kept pace with our OOC foes and I believe the combination of the AI and no RS rule is a significant difference. That extra year to mature both physically and emotionally at that age can be big. A number of teams with fifth year seniors. Against true 18-19 year old freshmen and sophs will make a difference.

[RichH2]

Good points. Our roster certainly shows a plethora of freshman on the field now, of course, some to the rash of injuries the past few weeks. I believe our skill level has improved, but I don't think we have kept pace with our OOC foes and I believe the combination of the AI and no RS rule is a significant difference. That extra year to mature both physically and emotionally at that age can be big. A number of teams with fifth year seniors. Against true 18-19 year old freshmen and sophs will make a difference.

Valid points. Heck, one is 17. Few teenagers are ready physically to transition up to college. They have the athletic ability but lack the strength and experience. Time will solve that. 2 frosh starting on OL is startling but they are just that good.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Depth is overblown. 100+ kids on the roster is just more guys holding bags on the scout teams. Hoping your next super star is an overlooked walk on is no way to build a program. You only have time to prepare 22 guys on a side each week. There just isnt enough minutes to give four deep first team reps. If you have played, you've seen it. 63 CAA scholarships or almost 60 with most PLs, u still have 20 newbies, redshirting or not, not getting game day prep reps. Why do we struggle if we have to start playing a third teamer as compared to the CAA? Their unerclassman third teamer would start for us, thats why. And that goes to better talent on the roster, that talent getting there by better talent evaluators and better development. It aint depth related to a numbers game, its simply a better 60 kids.

QB Pete Pujals was on the radar of a lot of schools when he was being recruited. Eastern Illinois, home of Sean Payton, Tony Romo and Jimmy Garroppolo, had an offer out to him, and Yale, Penn, and a host of Missouri Valley teams were sniffing around him. Instead, he chose to go to Holy Cross, and instantly he attracted a lot of attention. The Boston media drooled over him after he was the linchpin in a near-victory over Harvard, and over the course of his last four years he was unquestionably one of the Top 3 QBs of the Patriot League all four years he was a starter. Against UConn, he managed to make some tremendous plays to make Husky fans crap their pants and have to pull out the playbook to beat them. Against UNH, he helped the Crusaders put up 51 points on them. Pujals is an incredible talent, one of the best QBs to ever make it to the Patriot League.

But Pujals isn't a 4-time PL champion because of depth. Let's say you blew all the scholarships on 60 players. 15 of them ain't going to work out for a variety of reasons. 15 are going to get hurt. 15 more will be solid contributors but not all-League. That leaves 15 other players, which, you will realize, adds up to maybe 7 players on both sides of the ball. That's not 22 players.

Now you're down to the walk-ons. Many will not work out, but some will. Some become contributors. A few can become all-League. However, the Patriot League cripples itself with roster limits. Only 90 can be on the summer roster. Some kids get hurt? That means you're pretty much guaranteeing you're playing true freshmen, because, remember, the PL doesn't redshirt. Lose two centers? You're screwed. Lose two kickers? Ditto.

It's a complex subject, because not everything can be laid at the feet of roster limits. But you can bet the combination of roster limits AND no redshirts are having a profound effect on the league's teams. And the way this season supports that evidence greatly. The top end talent (Pujals, Edmonds, Pelletier, Anderson) are great individual players, some NFL quality. Someone's earning their money in recruiting, surely. But the overall teams? Not so good. That can be laid to depth. It's not just "more guys holding bags on scout teams", and it's certainly not "third stringers on Delaware are better than Chase Edmonds and Pete Pujals", because it's wrong.

[van]

Good points. Our roster certainly shows a plethora of freshman on the field now, of course, some to the rash of injuries the past few weeks. I believe our skill level has improved, but I don't think we have kept pace with our OOC foes and I believe the combination of the AI and no RS rule is a significant difference. That extra year to mature both physically and emotionally at that age can be big. A number of teams with fifth year seniors. Against true 18-19 year old freshmen and sophs will make a difference.

yes, but if you recruit well, you do not need to depend on frosh and sophs that much, consistent recruiting yields JR and SR starters

[RichH2]

yes, but if you recruit well, you do not need to depend on frosh and sophs that much, consistent recruiting yields JR and SR starters

That is my point. We need all those athletes in there as jrs and srs. If we can keep all our present verbals we will have e3 solid classes in house.

[ngineer]

yes, but if you recruit well, you do not need to depend on frosh and sophs that much, consistent recruiting yields JR and SR starters

You do when you have a host of injuries and Lehigh and others have seen that this year. While it's "next man up", that next man is not always ready for prime time. PL has to expand its rosters.

[Doc QB]

It's a complex subject, because not everything can be laid at the feet of roster limits. But you can bet the combination of roster limits AND no redshirts are having a profound effect on the league's teams. And the way this season supports that evidence greatly. The top end talent (Pujals, Edmonds, Pelletier, Anderson) are great individual players, some NFL quality. Someone's earning their money in recruiting, surely. But the overall teams? Not so good. That can be laid to depth. It's not just "more guys holding bags on scout teams", and it's certainly not "third stringers on Delaware are better than Chase Edmonds and Pete Pujals", because it's wrong.

LFN, not sure in what manner you are targeting my two comments that you tagged with quotes. My opinion is that depth is not a function of the numbers of guys on the roster, but the quality of the guys on the roster. In addition, you can only get so many guys game ready each week. Its a fact. If you have an injury, that next man up is either talented enough to plug the hole, or not. If they are an underclassman, it is an obvious challenge. If you have the ability to redshirt, than that underclassman has potentially had another year of development, maybe not. But if you are recruiting better talent across the board, that next man isn't as big a weakness. Our beloved LU and Patriot league is not unique in its injuries. The teams that aren't as bothered by it obviously, have better talent, not more guys on the roster. Period.

Comparing UDs third stringers to the elite of our league is no comparison, it is ridiculous. But if you look globally across rosters, the CAA unquestionably has better talent, and one can not deny that. Their third stringers are better than ours by and large, that is why they are there, and why they beat up on us as a league collectively, and have multiple teams ranked at any one time. It doesnt make sense to disagree with me on that point, and yet exclaim there is a 'crippling' effect of the AI and redshirts, because that argument also supports my opinion too...they have better talent acquired without our academic requirements and keeping them around longer with redshirts. The denominator is the same, talent.

We have had teams compete with them, as has Colgate. Our recipe for those teams occasionally being at a higher level has been a combination of a few special impact players and less big time injuries to expose the talent gap when the guys further down the depth chart are called upon. What would you call UNH last year? We lose Colton, and their entire offensive package was run/pass option and TE passes at a very inexperienced replacement LB. 60+. Was it because we only had a half dozen LBs on the roster, or maybe ten, or because they just were not as talented?

[RichH2]

PL will remain at a disadvantage as long as we have roster caps, max out at 60 schollies and the AI. Can we still have nationally relevant teams? Sure but not consistently. PL has had some good runs nationally 15-18 years. Should we do better with 60 schollies? Probably. The rruth is the recruiting landscape has changed drastically in the last 15 years. Lots of teams are picking at the pool of prospects that PL has in their niche. Schollie recruiting took most PL teams a few years to learn. Most have done so. The last w classes have been what this league needs every year. Unfortunately that talent is centered predominantly in the frosh and sophs. If we can stay at the same rate PL will be much more competitive OOC. Depth and redshirting will still remain substantial roadblocks to any expectation of annual relevance for more than 1 or 2 PL teams. I seriously doubt Presidents will ever remove the AI. I am hopeful that schollie cap will be phased up to 63. Until then any hope for PL to be a national factor is dim.