Western Carolina at Wofford

[The Cats]

Questions......

Can Richard's Cats pull off a win when the only two undefeated (in conference play) SoCon teams meet Saturday? Could this be the FCS Game of the Week?

Can what is arguably the best offense in the SoCon defeat what is arguably the best defense in the SoCon?


(The Cats have defeated Samford & Chattanooga, while the Terriers beat Furman and Mercer)



Go Cats!

[PaladinFan]

Wofford is tough, and if WCU can be slowed, Wofford will be the one to do it.

The Terriers haven't looked terribly imposing to this point despite being undefeated. I'm hoping that Wofford is able give teams a blueprint on slowing down the Catamounts' offensive attack.

[tenNesseeCat]

I hope their DBs give our WRs the kinda cushion they were giving PC.

Our O has a lot of weapons for teams to try and key on. Now that Sexton is back, he just adds to that. Don't forget, he was all socon before he went down. We put 5 guys on the field that can take it to the house on 1 missed tackle or blown assignment. I think if our D can stop them some, we win. We can score fast enough to gain an extra 1 or 2 possessions. I think it's either a close win one way or the other, or it's a route by WCU.

I'll add that I don't think the Wofford O is good enough to steam roll our D. They will get some yards, but I don't think our D is doomed.

[PaladinFan]

I hope their DBs give our WRs the kinda cushion they were giving PC.

Our O has a lot of weapons for teams to try and key on. Now that Sexton is back, he just adds to that. Don't forget, he was all socon before he went down. We put 5 guys on the field that can take it to the house on 1 missed tackle or blown assignment. I think if our D can stop them some, we win. We can score fast enough to gain an extra 1 or 2 possessions. I think it's either a close win one way or the other, or it's a route by WCU.

I'll add that I don't think the Wofford O is good enough to steam roll our D. They will get some yards, but I don't think our D is doomed.

That's how Wofford plays defense. They'll try to take away the run game and permit the pass. Force an offense to make a bunch of smaller gains to score instead of breaking big plays.

Up tempo teams like WCU can be a bad matchup against Wofford. They will hang onto the ball and try to keep the WCU offense sitting on the sideline. An untimely turnover may result in a 14 point swing and your offense being off the field for 12 minutes.

[FUBeAR]

That's how Wofford plays defense. An untimely turnover may result in a 14 point swing and your offense being off the field for 12 minutes.

Yes - turning the ball over vs. Wofford can QUICKLY lead to a less than desired outcome...

https://s1.postimg.org/37mm9ao7e7/woffmerwinprob.jpg

...and then...



2nd and 10 at MER21
pass complete for 4 yards to the MER25, fumble forced by George Gbesee, fumble recovered by WOF George Gbesee at MER28.


...and then...



2nd and 16 at MER37
pass intercepted by Devin Watson at the WOF19, Devin Watson return 1 yards to the WOF20.


...and then...



2nd and 15 at MER28
pass intercepted by Terrance Morris at the MER37, Terrance Morris return 0 yards to the MER37.


...and then...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxU5fdVNjTQ

[tenNesseeCat]

That's how Wofford plays defense. They'll try to take away the run game and permit the pass. Force an offense to make a bunch of smaller gains to score instead of breaking big plays.

Up tempo teams like WCU can be a bad matchup against Wofford. They will hang onto the ball and try to keep the WCU offense sitting on the sideline. An untimely turnover may result in a 14 point swing and your offense being off the field for 12 minutes.

I agree, but I think it also works the other way. If they let us out to a lead, or we capitalize on a TO in our favor, they aren't built to catch up. They are passing the ball more lately. Seems like I saw them kill the clock more than once with incomplete passes vs PC. They got 4 TO vs Mercer, and still only won by 1. I think they are a good defensive team, and average on O. Our D is average, but I think the difference comes in our O. They haven't faced an offense as good as ours. Furman is the best they've faced, and I think they are lucky they nipped them early. I think FU would win by 2+ TDs if they could play now. I've been thinking for weeks that The Citadel and Wofford aren't as good as their rankings indicate, but they keep winning. - The Citadel vs Samford. Could there be another exposure this week? It's gonna be fun to see.

I'll add that our worst offensive production came this past week, and we still had almost 400 yards with our D and special teams scoring 3 times. Technically the O scored the TD, but the special teams got them the ball on the 1. We had more yards vs Hawaii, our field goal unit just killed us in that game.

[ElCid]

I've been thinking for weeks that The Citadel and Wofford aren't as good as their rankings indicate(d)

Fixed it for you. At least for us. I think Wofford may obviously be a bit too high still. Maybe. We will know better after Saturday. There is little doubt that both The Citadel and Wofford were/are benefiting from last years reputation. We did not earn the previous weeks rankings this year yet. This is a perennial problem with polls in general. It is hard not to look back lacking any other new evidence one way or another. But there is a lot of ball left to play and lots of chances remaining to earn, and lose, standing. Personally I think Samford has been ranked a bit low most of the year, but that was somewhat self induced due to their uneven intensity.

If WCU wins this week, they could very well be 7-2 or 8-1(depending on the Furman game) when they travel to Chucktown in early Nov.

While I think WCU has definitely gotten better on defense, you still have not passed a difficult test yet. The only serious offense you have faced is Samford and while you won the game, the yards given up were concerning. Although the goal line stand was nice. I will feel different if you stuff Wofford's running game.

[Reign of Terrier]

I would agree that Wofford doesn't deserve our #5 ranking (that's in some polls of course, not all). I would also agree that our offense isn't really impressive on the surface. We've only scored 40 points on a D1 opponent twice in the last five years.

Having said that, I think a lot of people on AGS think Western is going to steamroll through this one. Let me be the counterpoint (Note: Though I think Wofford can win, I've picked western. I think this game is 50-50 and I'm covering my bases).

Yes, it is true that Wofford hasn't played great offense. By all measure of our statistics, we are average, but I think we've improved over the last few weeks. Let's not take away from the overall performance of the team. For instance, one commenter has said that we would not beat Furman if we played again. That's not 100% fair; we played probably the most healthy version of the 2017 Furman team. We also had the least amount of film to prepare against them. Yet still, our defense played tough, holding them to their lowest scoring against FCS competition (and, for what it's worth, we were one missed tackle away from holding them to 17; if ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas, but I think it's worth mentioning that the scoreboard often doesn't indicate the aggregate performance of a team).

It's true that Mercer pretty much blew it against us (and subsequently, blew it against ETSU). In this context, I think it's worth mentioning the possibility that Mercer is a great team but has "head problems" when it comes to closing good games (Also: ETSU is better than expected this year). We played a terrible game against Mercer. We should have lost, looking at all stats about 40 minutes in. But our defense made plays and our offense capitalized. What's lost in that hub-bub is that Mercer got 10 points on the board basically due to good returns (they still count, obviously). All of this, and we scored more points on Mercer than any team thus far, including Auburn.

Gardner Webb and PC are the facepalm games. Still, we made improvement in each. As I've said before, the final score against GW and urgency we had in the last two minutes doesn't do proper justice to the amount of control we had of that game. The case could be made that 2 GW's touchdowns were based upon our mistakes (on their last TD, 3 DBs knocked into each other and on their first, it was a scoop and score). Against PC, we were clearly the better team, but at times we just looked sluggish.

If I could summarize Wofford right now, it's that we're good but what prevents us from being great is stupid mistakes and bad play-calling. The good news if you're Wofford is that I think the stupid mistakes have trended downward in recent weeks, but the bad playcalling is still constant. I'm hoping we've just called a conservative game to keep the playbook under wraps, but I am skeptical.

If you're going to contrast Wofford this year with last, I would say (contrary to popular criticism) we are, at least potentially, better offensively. Goodson is an efficient passer, it's a travesty that Blake Morgan hasn't been named offensive POTW once yet and both of our fullbacks are solid, and we have probably the most athletic group of wide outs we've had in a while (who, in my opinion are underutilized). I joke that at times our players bail our coaches dumbskull playcalling and PC kind of tells the tape of it.

Our defense is our defense. Statistically, we haven't gotten as much pressure as you would expect in the first four games. One thing I've noticed is that teams have schemed around the strengths of our DL. Lots of bootlegs (which effect the QB's efficiency at times) and in PC's case they put an extra man to block our 3 with 6. Mikel Horton, our all-freshman-socon nose guard, missed the first two games as well.

If anything, we'll win this game by keeping the score low. I never realized it until it was mentioned in this thread, but by playing defense in a bend-but-don't break way, we play to our offense's strengths (or even, weaknesses). By not allowing teams to score fast we work clock, keeping the score down.

To beat Western, we have to do that, play better special teams, avoid dumb mistakes, minimize turnovers (or at least win the turnover battle) and (gulp) have better offensive playcalling.

Western is rightfully favored. They've got a more impressive win and offensive style points. Having said that, they haven't played a team like us. Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships.

[tenNesseeCat]

Wofford gave up 27 to Mercer, and 24 to GW. GW ran about 15 more plays vs us than they did wofford, and only scored 3 more points. Their offense really only scored about 13 points on our defense. They returned an int to the 1, and scored on the last play of the game with a 40+ yard pass on our reserves. That just doesn't strike me as championship level defense. Especially when their offense isn't blowing the doors off anyone. Don't get me wrong. I think Wofford is a good team, I just don't think their D is going to overwhelm our offense. I think they are slightly better than the UTC defense, and that worked out well for us.

[Catamount87]

I think a lot of people on AGS think Western is going to steamroll through this one.

Anyone that thinks that is smoking some seriously potent wacky weed. This game is going to be tough for both teams.

[Reign of Terrier]

Wofford gave up 27 to Mercer, and 24 to GW. GW ran about 15 more plays vs us than they did wofford, and only scored 3 more points. Their offense really only scored about 13 points on our defense. They returned an int to the 1, and scored on the last play of the game with a 40+ yard pass on our reserves. That just doesn't strike me as championship level defense. Especially when their offense isn't blowing the doors off anyone. Don't get me wrong. I think Wofford is a good team, I just don't think their D is going to overwhelm our offense. I think they are slightly better than the UTC defense, and that worked out well for us.

We gave up 17 to Gardner Webb. Their first TD was on a botched pitch. pitch 6. Their last touchdown also came on a relatively short field (45 yards) and on a play in which three of our DBs ran into each other. We may have given up more points than Western did against GW, but we didn't give up as many yards. Points don't tell the whole story (they never really do). Yardage is a better indicator, but even that is an apples to oranges comparison given the major differences in how Western and Wofford plays.

Wofford averaged 5.8 yards per play and gave up 4.5 per play.
Western averaged 7.6 yards per play and gave up 4.9 per play.

Against Wofford, Gardner Webb won the turnover battle, against Western it was even.

Western scored 6 times on 11 possessions and gave up 5 on 12
Wofford scored 5 times on 10 possessions (11 if you want to count the final possession to run out the clock) and gave up 3 on 9 possessions.

My point here is that there's a lot of apples and oranges here and it's not a fair comparison. We were a fumbled pitch away from a two score lead at half time and another fumble away from a 30 point performance. The former would have changed Gardner webb's gameplan in my opinion. Mistakes were the equalizer against GW, but as I said before the final score and sense of urgency of the last drive didn't do justice to how much Wofford controlled that game.

If we're going to give asterisks out for small mistakes that make a game more competitive, then Wofford takes the cake. Mercer got basically 10 points off special teams (returned the opening kickoff to the 8 and later a punt to the Wofford 23, settled for a FG). Even against Furman (who Wofford so far held to a season low of 23 points) their last touchdown was based upon one mistake on a missed tackle. Doesn't matter. The points still count. I'm open to the argument that there are statistical outliers that manifest in points that don't properly reflect a team's aggregate performance. But if you're going to make that argument, Wofford is an uneqivocally a better defense (and we're already statistically one of the best in the conference).

This game is going to come down to Wofford's offense, not Western. Western will get their points and yardage and I would guess they'll score anywhere from 17 to 38 points. If we keep it under 30, it'll be competitive. If we keep it under 20, we win. Western hasn't seen a team this year that can run it like we can. Grinding clock on offense is part of our defense and it's a strategy they haven't had to cope with. If Wofford breaks even or wins the turnover battle and keeps the possessions for each team under 12, we'll win. Do I think that will happen? I don't know. At first I picked Western to win this game, but the more I analyze obscure stats like scoring possessions as a fraction of total possessions per game and control for factors such as opposing team pace and talent, Western doesn't look as world-beater-ish as they used to be. They are still, unequivocally, the best offense in the Socon, but Wofford will give them a game.

[PaladinFan]

My take?

Western Carolina hasn't played a physical quality run-first team. The best teams they've seen play a similar up and back style they do.

Wofford's defense, in my opinion, has been slightly underwhelming this year. Much was made of their returning stars and defensive line, but they've not necessarily been imposing. Both Mercer and Furman could have and maybe should have beaten them. You can make what you want about a "missed tackle" against Furman, but the Paladins, playing mostly freshmen in the first game of a brand new offensive system, nearly knocked off Wofford at home.

Much of this game, I think, will come down to which team can force the other to adapt their style of play. Wofford doesn't want a shootout, and WCU doesn't want a grinding defensive slug fest.

[Reign of Terrier]

Furman played a lot of freshmen, Wofford didn't know what tendencies Furman would bring. It could go either way. We still played pretty well, so far being the best FCS defensive performance Furman has gone up against by a mile. As many mulligans as you could put it on both sides, that is still true.

[PaladinFan]

Furman played a lot of freshmen, Wofford didn't know what tendencies Furman would bring. It could go either way. We still played pretty well, so far being the best FCS defensive performance Furman has gone up against by a mile. As many mulligans as you could put it on both sides, that is still true.

Furman's defense held Wofford's offense to season lows in points, yards, passing, etc. I think only GWU held Wofford to fewer rushing yards.

Wofford's a good team. They haven't looked nearly as good this year as last year.

[tenNesseeCat]

I agree there is some apples to oranges stuff here, but that's about all we have to look at. our apples and your oranges. GW being the one common opponent. That's one avenue that makes me think Wofford isn't overly opposing on D. We both held them to about the same points. While points don't tell the whole story, yards don't always either. Take away their 40+ yard td pass to end the game, and our yards per play are almost the same. Nearly all we've heard is how soft the WCU defense is. I just don't buy this, it doesn't matter the score, wofford is undefeated. meaning GW scores 27 on us and our defense is viewed as questionable. Wofford lets them score 24, and we've never seen a defense that good. look at our game vs utc. It was our worst offensive outing this year. the score board didn't show that though. I think paladinfan is right, whom ever can force their style more should win. That's why I lean towards WCU. I don't think the wofford D is good enough to shut us down, and I don't think the wofford O is good enough to just run us over. I think WCU has to bring their A+ D in order to win. I just see the pressure on wofford to bring there A+ in both to win. I think WCU can have a sub-par offensive outing vs wofford and still score 21+. I'll just say, we aren't GW and we aren't PC or WCU from last year for that matter, so this should be fun to watch.

[PaladinFan]

I agree there is some apples to oranges stuff here, but that's about all we have to look at. our apples and your oranges. GW being the one common opponent. That's one avenue that makes me think Wofford isn't overly opposing on D. We both held them to about the same points. While points don't tell the whole story, yards don't always either. Take away their 40+ yard td pass to end the game, and our yards per play are almost the same. Nearly all we've heard is how soft the WCU defense is. I just don't buy this, it doesn't matter the score, wofford is undefeated. meaning GW scores 27 on us and our defense is viewed as questionable. Wofford lets them score 24, and we've never seen a defense that good. look at our game vs utc. It was our worst offensive outing this year. the score board didn't show that though. I think paladinfan is right, whom ever can force their style more should win. That's why I lean towards WCU. I don't think the wofford D is good enough to shut us down, and I don't think the wofford O is good enough to just run us over. I think WCU has to bring their A+ D in order to win. I just see the pressure on wofford to bring there A+ in both to win. I think WCU can have a sub-par offensive outing vs wofford and still score 21+. I'll just say, we aren't GW and we aren't PC or WCU from last year for that matter, so this should be fun to watch.

I consider the WCU defense and Wofford offense to be "meh."

I think WCU's offense is more impressive than Wofford's defense. Again, I think this game will be decided based on what happens when Western Carolina has the ball.

As a SoCon fan, I guess I need to pull for Wofford to give the conference a highly ranked undefeated team. As a Furman fan, I have to pull for Western because the Paladins still get their crack at the Catamounts.

[Reign of Terrier]

Furman's defense held Wofford's offense to season lows in points, yards, passing, etc. I think only GWU held Wofford to fewer rushing yards.

Wofford's a good team. They haven't looked nearly as good this year as last year.

I disagree. we were 5-3 and unranked through 8 games last year. We could very well have the same record through 8 games this year, but at times last year we were downright pedestrian. I think we led VMI 3-0 at half in the *last game of the season* last year. We were losing to a Furman team that would finish 3-8 in the second half. Going into Chattanooga (the second to last team we played during the regular season) we hadn't beaten a team with a winning record.

Comparatively, we actually scored more offensive point against Mercer than last year.


I agree there is some apples to oranges stuff here, but that's about all we have to look at. our apples and your oranges. GW being the one common opponent. That's one avenue that makes me think Wofford isn't overly opposing on D. We both held them to about the same points. While points don't tell the whole story, yards don't always either. Take away their 40+ yard td pass to end the game, and our yards per play are almost the same. Nearly all we've heard is how soft the WCU defense is. I just don't buy this, it doesn't matter the score, wofford is undefeated. meaning GW scores 27 on us and our defense is viewed as questionable. Wofford lets them score 24, and we've never seen a defense that good. look at our game vs utc. It was our worst offensive outing this year. the score board didn't show that though. I think paladinfan is right, whom ever can force their style more should win. That's why I lean towards WCU. I don't think the wofford D is good enough to shut us down, and I don't think the wofford O is good enough to just run us over. I think WCU has to bring their A+ D in order to win. I just see the pressure on wofford to bring there A+ in both to win. I think WCU can have a sub-par offensive outing vs wofford and still score 21+. I'll just say, we aren't GW and we aren't PC or WCU from last year for that matter, so this should be fun to watch.

Again, if you would read, our defense didn't allow 24 points. We allowed 17. Gardner Webb scored on a defensive touchdown.

At the end of the day, all we need to do to keep you guys under 30 or 28 is limit you to 10 drives (that's on our offense moving the ball and grinding clock, not our defense) and subsequently not let you score on half of them (that's on our defense). That may sound like a tall order, but as Western has possessed the ball 66 times this season, they've only scored on 32 of them. So basically, Wofford's defense just has to hold Western to an average performance. One may challenge that a few of those possessions by Western weren't scores because they were blowouts, and that's a fair point, but at the same time it's hard to postulate what Western would do against "an average" opponent because a lot of their opponents (Davidson, Chattanooga) weren't average and a couple more weren't average defensively (Samford, Hawaii).

Meanwhile, Wofford has only possessed the ball 40 times and scored on 18 of those drives (note: for all of these stats, I'm not including drives that end a game or half). On average, admittedly that's not as great, but defensively we're solid, allowing teams to score on us 14 of 42 possessions (about 1/3). Western has a similar percentage, however there's more possessions and I'm too lazy to count all of them. I'd be weary of using that number to forecast Western's performances though. Chattanooga's and Davidson's offenses suck, and if you take them out the defense's performances aren't as impressive.

Again, I'm not taking away from Western's offense of their ability to light up the scoreboard on anyone or their ability to possibly shut Wofford down. Both are possibilities. All I'm saying is that, based upon a more statistical (Bayesian) understanding of things, Wofford only needs to play an average game on offense and slightly below average game on defense to make this game competitive and Western needs an above average game defensively (when controlling for overall team quality) to blow Wofford out. They need an average offensive game to stay competitive, but it's very possible that Wofford is a better team they've played.

Turnovers will throw all of this analysis out the window. If Wofford gets a bunch of quick three and outs and turnovers at the beginning, it will look like Citadel/Samford. But if they don't and Western loses the turnover battle while all else holds average, Western may be the one playing catch up.

[tenNesseeCat]

youngterrier, I appreciate your statistical analysis, but there is nearly a games worth of WCU reserve play in the data that you pull from. I'll ask the question out right. Wofford gave up 24 to GW. ok ok ok...1 was a defensive td, and another was a short field score by GW when some of your guys trip over themselves. So your D only gave up 10 points. WCU gave up 27 to GW the week before. One was pretty much a defensive td, and the other was essentially a heave to the end zone as our coach was getting a gatorade bath. By your same analysis, our D only gave up 13. Why then is the Wofford D regarded as the something we've never seen? Using GW as a common comparison, our O plays against a comparable D every time they practice. I just don't get it, when looking at the WCU D, 2+2=4, very average. With Wofford's D, 2+2=y and y=something we've never seen before. If the Wofford D is as good as everyone makes it out to be, I would expect them to give up some points to your upstate rivals, but not Mercer, and surely not lowly GW. PC was about where I expected it to be. IF Wofford can hold us to a below average game on offense by say 10 points, that still gives us 31. Your highest point total on the year. Why is it not a factor that the WCU defense could be the best that Wofford has faced all year? Maybe not better than Furman's or Mercer's but pretty close I would think, and surely better than GW and PC.

[Milktruck74]

Keys to victory:

WCU: Score early and often. If they can get ahead by 7-10 points early, Wofford's offense doesn't play well from behind. How to do that??? Score on Special teams (or get a really short field) or Defense. Scoring on D against a team like Wofford is difficult, since they do a great job at protecting the ball, so a stop on the first or second drive is crucial for the Cats..

Woffy: Run the clock. Wofford needs to just do what they do, hold the ball. It is hard for Newsome to put up those big numbers when Western's Defense is on the field. He is good, but not THAT good.

I hate to be the guy that just states the obvious, but the team that scores more will win. Haha. A high scoring affair favors the Cats, and 17-10 is all Woffy. Either way, it is going to be a good one and I'm looking forward to watching.

[walliver]

The key for the Terriers is for the offense to play consistently. We have had way too many 3-and-outs this year. Our offense has also struggled near the goal line.
Our defense will play bend-not-break and give up lots of field goals, but will need to keep Western out of the end zone. Our new OC is still adapting to his new role, but hopefully will step it up a notch this week.
If the game is close after the first quarter we will be in good shape.

[Reign of Terrier]

I'll break this down piece by piece as there are many points of inquiry


youngterrier, I appreciate your statistical analysis, but there is nearly a games worth of WCU reserve play in the data that you pull from.

I mentioned that in my analysis. It is true that Western got a lot of reserve play in the second half. If you control for the games (i.e omit) in which that happened (Hawaii, Samford, maybe GW even I didn't watch it), the rate on both rates is about the same, and defensively worse for Western. I recognize that one play can not be a representative of an aggregate (what's funny is that Wofford's game about PC proves that, had we not done it multiple times), that's why I'm looking at average drive statistics per game.


I'll ask the question out right. Wofford gave up 24 to GW. ok ok ok...1 was a defensive td, and another was a short field score by GW when some of your guys trip over themselves. So your D only gave up 10 points. WCU gave up 27 to GW the week before. One was pretty much a defensive td, and the other was essentially a heave to the end zone as our coach was getting a gatorade bath. By your same analysis, our D only gave up 13. Why then is the Wofford D regarded as the something we've never seen?

Because one game can't be a representative sample. There's a lot of uncertainty and outliers that happen, and it's especially bad in football (Basketball is probably the opposite). Anyway, just because WCU had performance x against Gardner Webb and Wofford had performance y against Gardner Webb, that doesn't tell you how they'll play each other. Both teams have different offenses from Gardner Webb. Put aside bits that influence outcomes like game pacing and turnovers, just because Wofford gave up 24/10 to Gardner Webb and WCU gave up 27/13, that score itself isn't the best indicator of how each team will play each other. The transitive property doesn't work in football. You're logic here is like (and I'm using this example because it's on the top of my head) Clemson in 2012 thinking they could blow out USC because they only beat Wofford by 16 points (tied going into the fourth). By some transitive property of comparison, that made sense. But it was only one game, and they're not playing defense with defense or offense with offense, but offense against defense.


Using GW as a common comparison, our O plays against a comparable D every time they practice. I just don't get it, when looking at the WCU D, 2+2=4, very average. With Wofford's D, 2+2=y and y=something we've never seen before. If the Wofford D is as good as everyone makes it out to be,

If I'm not mistake, your logic is "how is Wofford's defense better than Western when they had a comparable performance against a similar team." Again, if you're just looking at points, that's a valid argument, but as I've said ad nasuem here, that's not the best indicator. You have to look at the totality of the game, offense and defense to get a better read of it. Let me use an example: at first , Western's performance against Samford defensively sucked; they allowed 34 points. But if you look a second time, Samford had 15 possessions and only scored on 5 of them. Their defense forced Samford off the field with no points 2/3 of the time. That's pretty good. By the same token, it's not the defense's fault that they were on the field 15 times in the first place, it was the offense's for not being more successful or working more clock. You can't score if you don't have the ball, either possessing it or with turnovers, and the best way to possess the ball (between those two options) is to have the offense hold onto it.

A better indicator of your defense's play is its ability to get offenses off the field at high proportions than the final score. Teams that score a lot of points let up a lot of points because statistically, a freak outlier play (or 2 or 3) is more likely to happen the more likely you possess the ball.

Right now, Wofford's problem with offensive performance is our average efficiency (~50 percent) coupled with not having the ball as much (averaging 10 possessions a game). When you only score on half of your possessions and you possess the ball 10 times a game, it's not a surprise we only have 17-24 points going into the fourth quarter. Similarly, if you average defensively giving up points 30%, it's no surprise if the other team in the same circumstance (has 6-14 points) going into the fourth (and that's *before* turnovers)


I would expect them to give up some points to your upstate rivals, but not Mercer, and surely not lowly GW. PC was about where I expected it to be. IF Wofford can hold us to a below average game on offense by say 10 points, that still gives us 31. Your highest point total on the year. Why is it not a factor that the WCU defense could be the best that Wofford has faced all year? Maybe not better than Furman's or Mercer's but pretty close I would think, and surely better than GW and PC.

Mercer's a good team, they stumbled against ETSU, but they are a solid team that can score points. If you want to be nitpicky, we held them to below 50% scoring on possessions in that game, and 2 of those scoring drives happened because they got the ball inside our 25 yard line. I haven't precluded the possibility that Western could stop us. It could happen, I have no doubt in my mind, but when we talk about an average game, it's best to look at offensive efficiency, not point. In that regard, an average Wofford offensive game (possessing the ball 10 or so times a game and scoring on half of the possessions) combined with a below average defensive performance (between 40-50% scoring efficiency by WCU on 9/11-ish) will make the game competitive.

Meanwhile, if we have an above-average game or an average game defensively (<30% or below) an an average game offensively, we'll win.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sorry I type a lot you guys.

[tenNesseeCat]

I'm sorry I type a lot you guys.

No problems here. I like your in-depth analysis.

I understand that we score, and sometimes really fast. Which gives the other team more opportunities on offense. That's one reason I wasn't too upset about what we gave up to Davidson. I mean how many times did we kick the ball back to their offense. With other teams having that many opportunities, we are going to give up some. Looking at the per play #'s our D isn't horrible, but not great. I understand form their poor performance last year, they would be questioned this year, rightfully so. I just feel like one sample from our season thus far (samford) is driving the perception of our D this year. However, I can point out in nearly every other game, where our defense played well, and showed some grit. vs Hawaii, even with our kicking game blowing up like a nuclear bomb in our face, our D played well into the 4th giving our offense multiple chances to get within 1 score. Our D kept us in that game. I just hope our D comes out saturday with something to prove. Because it's apparent they do.

[Reign of Terrier]

No problems here. I like your in-depth analysis.

I understand that we score, and sometimes really fast. Which gives the other team more opportunities on offense. That's one reason I wasn't too upset about what we gave up to Davidson. I mean how many times did we kick the ball back to their offense. With other teams having that many opportunities, we are going to give up some. Looking at the per play #'s our D isn't horrible, but not great. I understand form their poor performance last year, they would be questioned this year, rightfully so. I just feel like one sample from our season thus far (samford) is driving the perception of our D this year. However, I can point out in nearly every other game, where our defense played well, and showed some grit. vs Hawaii, even with our kicking game blowing up like a nuclear bomb in our face, our D played well into the 4th giving our offense multiple chances to get within 1 score. Our D kept us in that game. I just hope our D comes out saturday with something to prove. Because it's apparent they do.

With a team with a quick pace offense, the statistics never reflect the ability of the defense. I don't think Western has a bad defense. At best they have a good defense (30% scoring isn't anything to sneeze at) and at worst we don't know enough given the nature of the sample. My hypothesis is that, thus far, they have an average defense that's exploited weak opponents (Davidson, Chattanooga) and has been exploited by high scoring offenses (Hawaii, Samford). I think GW is a pretty average offense and they played well, but as average defenses and back up offenses do, they made one or two mistakes that manifested in points.

It's not a knock on WCU to call their defense average. An average defense means they can tank it one week and pitch a shutout the next, pending on the opponent. Most importantly, as great as Western's offense is, they don't *need* a great defense to win games.

[wcugrad95]

So this is far from rocket-science or really that different from what has already been said (common sense at it's finest). Western needs possessions, and Wofford wants to limit them for us. The same way that Wofford wants to control the clock, I also think Western needs to NOT have several 3-and-outs - which are common for a team running an offense like WCU's or Samford's. Keeping our D off the field and limiting Wofford's opportunities to have long, clock-eating drives is also important to us, too. And in any football game, of course turnovers and/or a special teams big play can always make a difference.

If anybody thinks WCU will steamroll Wofford, that is just crazy talk. As evident in the polls (which is an argument onto itself), Western has years' worth of mediocrity to overcome to earn respect. The last time we thought we were good and were showing up on people's radars, UTC came to Cullowhee and blew our doors off and we failed to make the playoffs because of that game (in my opinion). I am hopeful that our coaches and players understand that and know they better be up for a fight in every SoCon game we have left.

As for the statistical details, there are always a lot of "ifs" involved. For example, WCU missed 4 FGs (3 were blocked) against Hawaii, and also had the ball at the 2 after getting a short field and didn't score primarily because Adams was out of the game for that drive. Score a couple of times on those possessions and our "score/possession" number raises up. But again, I am sure Wofford and every other team have a few of those to point to, also.

I don't think there is any doubt that this will be the best defense we have seen to date, and vice versa WCU will be the best offense Wofford has seen. All of the analysis seems right to me - scores that creep up to 30+ will mean WCU is in a good position, and scores in the teens to low 20s clearly favor the Terriers. I think we will know a whole lot about this game based on the first 2 drives each team has.

[Cat-in-GA]

If Wofford's game plan is to play this game close and hold on to a lead in the late fourth quarter, or come from behind in the late fourth quarter, then I hope they stick firm and fast to that design. If this game is tied, or close enough for it to be decided in the final two possessions, then I will place my money on Western Carolina's offense to score. Western's defense is too fast for Wofford to break off a long scoring run, and Wofford's offense is not designed to run a 2 minute drill that conserves enough time for a march down the field. Does anyone remember the WCU @ Wofford game 2 years ago? Wofford was trying to come from behind and ran out of time. This is a better WCU team all around than Wofford faced 2 years ago. My guess is that Wofford will run some reverses and half-back passes early to try to get a jump in the scoring. They will have to succeed in scoring with one of these plays to win.

[Reign of Terrier]

2 years ago, Western scored 3 times off turnovers against a 5-6 Wofford team that was boringly not-as-good as this team. If we turn the ball over three times, I agree, we'll lose

Also, you can ask any of our opponents if we can't score fast. 7 of our 18 scoring drives have been on 6 plays or less. A comparable proportion is under 3:00 minutes, with a couple under 2.

Pro Tip: Don't assume anyone at the D1 level is slower than your team

If the game is tied in the last 3 minutes, my money's on Wofford. We thrive in that environment.

[FUBeAR]

If the game is tied in the last 3 minutes, my money's on Wofford. We thrive in that environment.

StartTime = 1:50:50


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nXo6te188Y&amp;t=110m50s

[ElCid]

If Wofford's game plan is to play this game close and hold on to a lead in the late fourth quarter, or come from behind in the late fourth quarter, then I hope they stick firm and fast to that design. If this game is tied, or close enough for it to be decided in the final two possessions, then I will place my money on Western Carolina's offense to score. Western's defense is too fast for Wofford to break off a long scoring run, and Wofford's offense is not designed to run a 2 minute drill that conserves enough time for a march down the field. Does anyone remember the WCU @ Wofford game 2 years ago? Wofford was trying to come from behind and ran out of time. This is a better WCU team all around than Wofford faced 2 years ago. My guess is that Wofford will run some reverses and half-back passes early to try to get a jump in the scoring. They will have to succeed in scoring with one of these plays to win.


And yet, Samford drove 97 yards in the last minute of that game and the only reason they didn't score on four downs from your 3, and the win, was that their running game is subpar. If Wofford gets the ball with 3-4 minutes left and all they have to do is score to win, I would bet on them every time. The only way WCU wins is if they go up by multiple scores. The Terriers might score quickly. They have this year. But they will suck the clock away from you in a close game. It's what they do.

[FUBeAR]

Samford...the only reason they didn't score on four downs from your 3, and the win, was that their running game is subpar.



Statistic
CIT
SAM


RUSHING


Avg. Per Rush
3.5
4.3



xchinscratchx

[wcugrad95]

And yet, Samford drove 97 yards in the last minute of that game and the only reason they didn't score on four downs from your 3, and the win, was that their running game is subpar. If Wofford gets the ball with 3-4 minutes left and all they have to do is score to win, I would bet on them every time. The only way WCU wins is if they go up by multiple scores. The Terriers might score quickly. They have this year. But they will suck the clock away from you in a close game. It's what they do.

I would argue that Samford can drive 97 yards on ANYBODY the way Hodges was throwing the ball that night. I'd also argue that WCU's defense is much faster and playing a better scheme than in year's past. So it would ***probably*** mean Wofford has to get some really long runs or has to pass the ball to move down the field anywhere close to how Samford did. I am not saying they can't do that, and I am not saying this game can't be similar to the Samford/WCU game (just with fewer total yards) and it ends up the last team with the ball has the best chance to win. There is no doubt in my mind that Western is the most improved team in the league, but Wofford has enjoyed a number of years of success and to quote Ric Flair, "to be the man, we have to beat the man!" For WCU, that means we have made some big steps as a team with our wins the last 2 weeks - beating a ranked opponent, winning for the first time against UTC in a long time (and a longer time since winning a their place). But we still have to prove it against the other guys who have been at the top like Wofford.

[Reign of Terrier]

StartTime = 1:50:50


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nXo6te188Y&amp;t=110m50s

Yeah we missed a field goal. Much better than caving in the fourth quarter or overtime like Mercer (the anti-Peyton Manning team) does. Don't even mention the numerous cases to the contrary in the last year with wofford, where we either needed a score, were down a score or needed to keep the other team from scoring: Citadel in the playoffs, CSU in the playoffs, Mercer this year, Furman this year, Gardner Webb this year, Chattanooga last year, Furman last year, etc etc.

We've had our fair share of close games, and obviously we haven't won all of them (our average margin of loss last year was 4 points), but all but youngstown happened *before* all of the above games mentioned (i.e we're on something of streak)

I recognize that your smack might just be trolling, but is it really wise for a Mercer fan to talk smack about not closing games?

[Reign of Terrier]

And yet, Samford drove 97 yards in the last minute of that game and the only reason they didn't score on four downs from your 3, and the win, was that their running game is subpar. If Wofford gets the ball with 3-4 minutes left and all they have to do is score to win, I would bet on them every time. The only way WCU wins is if they go up by multiple scores. The Terriers might score quickly. They have this year. But they will suck the clock away from you in a close game. It's what they do.

Of the 3 games we lost last year, we were in a position to either tie, take the lead, or put it away late. We were 2 missed field goals and a two point conversion from that. With the exception of the 2pt conversion, I wouldn't say that the offense didn't at the very least put us in a position to win (and even then those two games went to overtime!)

[ElCid]

And yet, Samford drove 97 yards in the last minute of that game and the only reason they didn't score on four downs from your 3, and the win, was that their running game was subpar. If Wofford gets the ball with 3-4 minutes left and all they have to do is score to win, I would bet on them every time. The only way WCU wins is if they go up by multiple scores. The Terriers might score quickly. They have this year. But they will suck the clock away from you in a close game. It's what they do.




Statistic
CIT
SAM


RUSHING


Avg. Per Rush
3.5
4.3



xchinscratchx

OK, I fixed it.xlolx You know what I mean. Pretty bad they couldn't get it done, with the game on the line, from the three, with 4 downs. Kudos to WCU, but it was telling Samford went back to the air on 4th down. Just not sure that WCU deserves all the credit for that one stop.

[ElCid]

Of the 3 games we lost last year, we were in a position to either tie, take the lead, or put it away late. We were 2 missed field goals and a two point conversion from that. With the exception of the 2pt conversion, I wouldn't say that the offense didn't at the very least put us in a position to win (and even then those two games went to overtime!)

Well I wasn't looking at any specific game but as a general practice and strategy.

[FUBeAR]

Yeah we missed a field goal.

...and?...

C’mon now, I think there was a little more ‘thriving’ than that in those last 3 minutes...



3rd and 2 at WOF48
Joe Newman rush for loss of 1 yard to the WOF47 (Smith, Jameel).


4th and 3 at WOF47
Timeout Wofford, clock 01:50.


4th and 3 at WOF47
Timeout Wofford, clock 01:50.


4th and 3 at WOF47
David Marvin punt 50 yards to the YSU3, downed.


TOTAL
5 plays , 19 yards Time of Possession: 3:18




3rd and 6 at YSU39
Will Gay rush for 3 yards to the YSU36 (Kelly, Jaylin).


4th and 3 at YSU36
Timeout Wofford, clock 00:07.


4th and 3 at YSU36
David Marvin field goal attempt from 53 MISSED - short, spot at YSU36, clock 00:00.


TOTAL
4 plays , 7 yards Time of Possession: 0:46




3rd and 1 at YSU02
Lorenzo Long rush for no gain to the YSU2 (Wright, Lee).


4th and 1 at YSU02
Joe Newman rush for no gain to the YSU2, fumble by Joe Newman recovered by WOF TEAM at YSU3, out-of-bounds.


TOTAL
6 plays , 22 yards Time of Possession: 0:00




2nd and 6 at YSU21
Joe Newman rush for loss of 2 yards to the YSU23 (Smith, Jameel).


3rd and 8 at YSU23
PENALTY WOF false start (Ross Demmel) 5 yards to the YSU28.


3rd and 13 at YSU28
Joe Newman pass incomplete to Chandler Gouger, QB hurry by Dellovade, A..


4th and 13 at YSU28
Timeout Wofford, clock 00:00.


4th and 13 at YSU28
Brandon Goodson pass incomplete to Dorian Lindsey.


TOTAL
4 plays , -3 yards Time of Possession: 0:00




Youngstown State at 00:00




TOTAL
0 plays , 0 yards Time of Possession: 0:00


SCORE: Wofford 23-30 Youngstown State

[gofurman]

Yeah we missed a field goal. Much better than caving in the fourth quarter or overtime like Mercer (the anti-Peyton Manning team) does. Don't even mention the numerous cases to the contrary in the last year with wofford, where we either needed a score, were down a score or needed to keep the other team from scoring: Citadel in the playoffs, CSU in the playoffs, Mercer this year, Furman this year, Gardner Webb this year, Chattanooga last year, Furman last year, etc etc.

We've had our fair share of close games, and obviously we haven't won all of them (our average margin of loss last year was 4 points), but all but youngstown happened *before* all of the above games mentioned (i.e we're on something of streak)

I recognize that your smack might just be trolling, but is it really wise for a Mercer fan to talk smack about not closing games?

Since I don't have a dog.. or cat. in this fight I will throw in my 2 cents. Wofford is very good but - c'mon, I have to say this - was possibly lucky to beat Furman in our first game running a new O and new D. Take away a holding call (we go up 24-10 before half) or hit a two point conversion - where they fell for the fake (most of the players went to a knee as our QB walked away which was the whole scheme.. but we missed a key block).. anyway, my point is they won but they haven't looked like the team that was written up by all the FCS guys as (and I quote from one pub) "the SoCon is theirs for the taking". CREDIT to them on winning. Huge credit. And HUGE credit to WCU for finally getting it together up there. That only helps the SoCon.

Several top 25 teams in the SoCon now. Anyway, my unbiased take on this game is probably obvious. Can Wofford stop a real passing game ?? My Dins actually lead the league in yards per pass attempt now (and throw only 29% of our plays but achieve 222 yards through the air) but we didn't have it all going when we played Wofford. Wofford is known for soft corners. That's not an insult.. it's true. Furman is too. Wofford better get pressure or it could be a field day for WCUs passing attack.

The flip is can WCU really stop a strong running game? UTC and Samford don't prove to me that WCU is a run-stopping team. WCU is better on D now, that I will buy. But can they really stop a strong option game? If they had played Citadel at least I would have something. I just realized both teams played GWeb. Again, you can see the offensive power of WCU. Experience and home field do go to Woff. I call it close for a small WCU win but would give the Cats a real edge if they were at home.

I will be interested to see the results - will give something of a blueprint for the other SoCon teams.


good luck to both and no injuries

[tenNesseeCat]

Wofford is known for soft corners. That's not an insult.. it's true. Furman is too. Wofford better get pressure or it could be a field day for WCUs passing attack.


This is something I hit on earlier. Not that they were soft, but were playing VERY soft coverage in the PC game. granted, it was PC they were playing. I feel like Adams could dink and dunk to Hill, Robinson, Newsome, Sexton, Young, ect...eventually one of them will take it the distance, if we see that kind of coverage. 1 of our WR (young) is a converted RB, while Hill and Robinson are built like RBs. Adams for that matter is hard to bring down as well. Just in the Hawaii game, there were at least 3 plays where the announcers thought he was sacked, only for him to escape and run for a good gain. To me, this years team is playing physical on both sides of the ball.

[PaladinFan]

This is something I hit on earlier. Not that they were soft, but were playing VERY soft coverage in the PC game. granted, it was PC they were playing. I feel like Adams could dink and dunk to Hill, Robinson, Newsome, Sexton, Young, ect...eventually one of them will take it the distance, if we see that kind of coverage. 1 of our WR (young) is a converted RB, while Hill and Robinson are built like RBs. Adams for that matter is hard to bring down as well. Just in the Hawaii game, there were at least 3 plays where the announcers thought he was sacked, only for him to escape and run for a good gain. To me, this years team is playing physical on both sides of the ball.

Wofford has played that way for as long as I can remember.

They want to stop the run, limit your big plays, and force you to make a lot of little plays to beat them. Sledding gets tougher and tougher as you get down in the redzone, where the defense has less territory to cover.

Wofford's defense isn't good because they manhandle teams. They are good because they play their assignments, hold their ground, rarely get caught out of position, and tackle well.

[Reign of Terrier]

...and?...

C’mon now, I think there was a little more ‘thriving’ than that in those last 3 minutes...



3rd and 2 at WOF48
Joe Newman rush for loss of 1 yard to the WOF47 (Smith, Jameel).


4th and 3 at WOF47
Timeout Wofford, clock 01:50.


4th and 3 at WOF47
Timeout Wofford, clock 01:50.


4th and 3 at WOF47
David Marvin punt 50 yards to the YSU3, downed.


TOTAL
5 plays , 19 yards Time of Possession: 3:18




3rd and 6 at YSU39
Will Gay rush for 3 yards to the YSU36 (Kelly, Jaylin).


4th and 3 at YSU36
Timeout Wofford, clock 00:07.


4th and 3 at YSU36
David Marvin field goal attempt from 53 MISSED - short, spot at YSU36, clock 00:00.


TOTAL
4 plays , 7 yards Time of Possession: 0:46




3rd and 1 at YSU02
Lorenzo Long rush for no gain to the YSU2 (Wright, Lee).


4th and 1 at YSU02
Joe Newman rush for no gain to the YSU2, fumble by Joe Newman recovered by WOF TEAM at YSU3, out-of-bounds.


TOTAL
6 plays , 22 yards Time of Possession: 0:00




2nd and 6 at YSU21
Joe Newman rush for loss of 2 yards to the YSU23 (Smith, Jameel).


3rd and 8 at YSU23
PENALTY WOF false start (Ross Demmel) 5 yards to the YSU28.


3rd and 13 at YSU28
Joe Newman pass incomplete to Chandler Gouger, QB hurry by Dellovade, A..


4th and 13 at YSU28
Timeout Wofford, clock 00:00.


4th and 13 at YSU28
Brandon Goodson pass incomplete to Dorian Lindsey.


TOTAL
4 plays , -3 yards Time of Possession: 0:00




Youngstown State at 00:00




TOTAL
0 plays , 0 yards Time of Possession: 0:00


SCORE: Wofford 23-30 Youngstown State

Once again, this is anecdote, you're just being contrarian. The trend, as I've demonstrated is more in favor of my original point, as evident by the multiple games cited that were close in the last 2-3 minutes, yet we still won.

[FUBeAR]

Wofford's defense isn't good because they manhandle teams. They are good because they play their assignments, hold their ground, rarely get caught out of position, and tackle well.
The LittleDogs front 5 (3 DL-men & 2 ILB's) did plenty of manhandling up front last year. This year...not so much.

[Reign of Terrier]

Wofford has played that way for as long as I can remember.

They want to stop the run, limit your big plays, and force you to make a lot of little plays to beat them. Sledding gets tougher and tougher as you get down in the redzone, where the defense has less territory to cover.

Wofford's defense isn't good because they manhandle teams. They are good because they play their assignments, hold their ground, rarely get caught out of position, and tackle well.

The bolded is actually an insight I hadn't noticed watching 10 years worth of Wofford football and it kind of led to my digression towards looking at scoring efficiency per possession. The logic of the soft coverage is as PaladinFan says: you may beat us with a pass game, but if you do it's going to take you a while and make you have to make every possession count, because you may not score as much as you want, just because of the time. Meanwhile, the more passes you throw, the more likely it is we'll get a pick. That's not bragging on the Wofford defense, that's just a matter of statistics (QBs that throw more get more TDs...and interceptions). It's actually kind of funny if you look at the stats, your QB may have a great game and it feels like he's really efficient, but when the game's over you look at the stats he has less than 200 yards passing.

It's kind of funny because the PC color commentators were talking about how soft our corners were because of the amount of space we gave them as if that were a magical insight. It's not. Meanwhile, our CBs have the ability to read a play and get to it fast if it's a screen <plays Devon Watson's playoff highlight>

Again, none of this is to say that Western won't be successful against us. They very well may. All I'm saying is that, given Wofford's overall team talent, combined with their gameplan, so long as we minimize mistakes we'll be in good shape to win simply because the pace of the game will limit the maximum points that can be scored.

[Reign of Terrier]

The LittleDogs front 5 (3 DL-men & 2 ILB's) did plenty of manhandling up front last year. This year...not so much.

That is true. We haven't gotten as much pressure as we'd like. PC brought in 6-7 people to block every play (and in many cases there were clear holds that weren't called...I don't like saying that, because many fans say that every game, but this time it was different). We also didn't have our all-socon noseguard for the first two games. Against Gardner Webb, they got the vast majority of their rushing yards against us on their all-everything QB scrambling. There's only been one running back to rush more than 50 yards against us (Kudos to Furman, they're the only team to average more than 4 ypc against us).

I couldn't tell you the last time we allowed a 100 yard rusher, but I don't want to pretend it was a long time ago because I don't want to jinx it.

Having said that, if you ignore the above two paragraphs, we're still the #2 rush defense in conference (and arguably better than Citadel, given that Citadel played a D2, the Samford air raid, ETSU (who passes well, but doesn't run). You can flip that and say we're not getting enough pressure on QBs and in some ways I would agree and that fact is obvious in the amount of sacks we've delivered this year...which is not many. But it's apparent that teams have been scheming around our DL in the sense that they don't want to face them head up. Furman ran a lot of bootlegs, PC brought in extra blockers, etc. The pressure may not manifest in sacks, but in spite of our soft coverage (see prior comment) in the defensive backfield, we're still #2 in pass efficiency defense.

Having said *all of that* I don't think it can be understated how different Western's offense is from every other team we've played. They don't pound the ball at you, they try to leverage angles and they are good at it. What will be key to Wofford's ability to stop Western's run game will be our interior DL (aka the nose guard)'s ability to clog those holes. Looking at the statistics, it doesn't seem like Western has been in a situation where they couldn't run the ball effectively. If we can cause such problems, we'll be in good shape.

[ElCid]

I couldn't tell you the last time we allowed a 100 yard rusher, but I don't want to pretend it was a long time ago because I don't want to jinx it.



Yeah but I do want to jinx itxlolx

It was...YSU!

Update..since I really want to jinx it bad.... for a SOCON game is was Mercer 3 Oct 15....holy crap that is a long time. OT game, but Tee Mitchell, the offender, did not get any yards in OT.

Seriously, Wofford defends the run very well. Hard for anyone to have a breakout game against them.

[Reign of Terrier]

Yeah but I do want to jinx itxlolx

It was...YSU!

Update..since I really want to jinx it bad.... for a SOCON game is was Mercer 3 Oct 15....holy crap that is a long time. OT game, but Tee Mitchell, the offender, did not get any yards in OT.

Seriously, Wofford defends the run very well. Hard for anyone to have a breakout game against them.

That trend goes back all the way to 2013 where we had an abortion of a run defense. But since 2014, against FCS, FBS and non-FCS teams we've only allowed 2 100-yard rushers, the Youngstown State guy who probably ran for more yards than anyone in the FCS did against us in a very very long time (would not be surprised if that was a record) and the Mercer guy.

Having said that...there needs to be some caveats: 1) consistent 100 yard rushers are pretty rare 2) there were quite a few 90something yard rushers in this span and 3) a lot of times, run-first teams rush the ball by committee; so there were lots of games where no one rushed particularly spectacular but still racked up 150-200 yards rushing (e.g Citadel)

I'd love to see how many rush yards over the years have come from scrambles, though. Sooooo many yards.

[ElCid]

That trend goes back all the way to 2013 where we had an abortion of a run defense. But since 2014, against FCS, FBS and non-FCS teams we've only allowed 2 100-yard rushers, the Youngstown State guy who probably ran for more yards than anyone in the FCS did against us in a very very long time (would not be surprised if that was a record) and the Mercer guy.

Having said that...there needs to be some caveats: 1) consistent 100 yard rushers are pretty rare 2) there were quite a few 90something yard rushers in this span and 3) a lot of times, run-first teams rush the ball by committee; so there were lots of games where no one rushed particularly spectacular but still racked up 150-200 yards rushing (e.g Citadel)

I'd love to see how many rush yards over the years have come from scrambles, though. Sooooo many yards.

Hodges got a few against you if I remember correctly. About 95 or something in 2015. He nearly did the same to us last year, 90 something. Receivers all covered up, some double teamed, 3 or 4 pass rushers, and off to the races. I always wondered why they didn't try that in more of their games. I have seen him have huge amounts of green in front of him. And he is a big boy. No doubt they want to save him from some hits as well. I am actually more afraid of Adams doing it. He is much more elusive.

[PaladinFan]

Yeah, but in all honesty, in the modern day SoCon, how many players eclipse 100 yards rushing with any regularity?

It's an impressive stat, but to me not as impressive as it would have been 10-15 years ago when many SoCon teams had top notch feature backs. I mean, there are four SoCon teams that average under 100 yards rushing a game right now.

Of course, if there's one guy in the league that could do it, its Detrez Newsome. He's the only offensive player averaging 100+ yards rushing a game.

[FUBeAR]

Yeah but I do want to jinx itxlolx

It was...YSU!

Update..since I really want to jinx it bad.... for a SOCON game is was Mercer 3 Oct 15....holy crap that is a long time. OT game, but Tee Mitchell, the offender, did not get any yards in OT.

Seriously, Wofford defends the run very well. Hard for anyone to have a breakout game against them.

LOL - Here are ALL of Mercer's Offensive Plays in that overtime.



Mercer at 15:00




1st and 10 at WOF25
MERCER drive start at 15:00.


1st and 10 at WOF25
John Russ pass complete to Avery Ward for 25 yards to the WOF0, 1ST DOWN MER, TOUCHDOWN, clock 15:00.


1st and GOAL at WOF03
kick attempt failed.

[Reign of Terrier]

To be fair 10 years ago was the year that the spread offense burst on the scene. It's a different game than it was then. Games were shorter, had less points. As great as contemporary Wofford defenses are, I don't think they'll ever match the 2003 defense statistically. For instance, during the regular season, the highest a team scored against us was 16. National Champ Delaware scored 24. In contrast, the average wofford playoff team averages giving up 17 points a game.

I'm certain every school has a similar story.

[tenNesseeCat]

I am actually more afraid of Adams doing it. He is much more elusive.

Not to mention, he's only about a step slower that Newsome...maybe. Pretty much all of our weapons are fast and physical.


I'd love to see how many rush yards over the years have come from scrambles, though. Sooooo many yards.

Adams can hit you for 100 plus with his feet. xnodx As in years past, he's our second leading rusher.

[Reign of Terrier]

Not to mention, he's only about a step slower that Newsome...maybe. Pretty much all of our weapons are fast and physical.



Adams can hit you for 100 plus with his feet. xnodx As in years past, he's our second leading rusher.

I think the most likely scenario for Western's offensive success (again, barring turnovers) is: Wofford stops the interior run, Western turns to the pass with mixed success and Adams scrambles for a big day. Wofford plays off balance, opens up Newsome and the passing game.

[ElCid]

Yeah, but in all honesty, in the modern day SoCon, how many players eclipse 100 yards rushing with any regularity?

It's an impressive stat, but to me not as impressive as it would have been 10-15 years ago when many SoCon teams had top notch feature backs. I mean, there are four SoCon teams that average under 100 yards rushing a game right now.

Of course, if there's one guy in the league that could do it, its Detrez Newsome. He's the only offensive player averaging 100+ yards rushing a game.

We have had quite few 100 yard rushers in the last three+ years (35 times during 41 games with 8 different players, during 2014-2017). And it usually rotates between players, rather than be just only one or two players repeatedly. But that is our nature and strategy usually. It is apples and oranges comparing that to a team like WCU or Furman, etc. But having said that, I like that we "usually" have 4 or 5 guys a game at around 50-80 yards rather than just one or two 100 yard rushers and a bunch more at 20-25. Spread the hits out and keep the defenses guessing. When someone gets hot, all the better.

If Newsome goes down, WCU will be hurting. I know he didn't play this past week and they did fine, they have other weapons, but overall he is a key player and is a huge contributor, running, receiving and returning. But that takes it toll on his health as well.

[tenNesseeCat]

http://www.fcs.football/cfb/story.asp?i=20171005110112060628304

[citdog]

http://www.fcs.football/cfb/story.asp?i=20171005110112060628304


If it WERE a math test I'd go with the Wofford fellas....

[Reign of Terrier]

If it WERE a math test I'd go with the Wofford fellas....

Would you...count on it???

[citdog]

Would you...count on it???



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o

[gofurman]

The bolded is actually an insight I hadn't noticed watching 10 years worth of Wofford football and it kind of led to my digression towards looking at scoring efficiency per possession. The logic of the soft coverage is as PaladinFan says: you may beat us with a pass game, but if you do it's going to take you a while and make you have to make every possession count, because you may not score as much as you want, just because of the time. Meanwhile, the more passes you throw, the more likely it is we'll get a pick. That's not bragging on the Wofford defense, that's just a matter of statistics (QBs that throw more get more TDs...and interceptions). It's actually kind of funny if you look at the stats, your QB may have a great game and it feels like he's really efficient, but when the game's over you look at the stats he has less than 200 yards passing.

It's kind of funny because the PC color commentators were talking about how soft our corners were because of the amount of space we gave them as if that were a magical insight. It's not. Meanwhile, our CBs have the ability to read a play and get to it fast if it's a screen <plays Devon Watson's playoff highlight>

Again, none of this is to say that Western won't be successful against us. They very well may. All I'm saying is that, given Wofford's overall team talent, combined with their gameplan, so long as we minimize mistakes we'll be in good shape to win simply because the pace of the game will limit the maximum points that can be scored.

All those little plays give more chances for an opposing penalty too. Force a 12 play drive w lots of throwing you have a high chance of a holding getting called. So I get what Ayers is doing there. Furman does it too to an extent.

The irony w Wofford is that if you believe lots of plays increase the chance for a penalty (which they do!)... Wofford generally has drives of numerous plays themselves. They aren't throwing many bombs. However, perhaps they are going w the premise that running plays result in less Holding calls than passing plays ?

[PaladinFan]

http://www.fcs.football/cfb/story.asp?i=20171005110112060628304

I had not noticed this until the article highlighted it, but the SoCon has two QBs who are top 5 in the country in passing yards per attempt and passing yards per completion (Blazejowski and Adams).

[Reign of Terrier]

All those little plays give more chances for an opposing penalty too. Force a 12 play drive w lots of throwing you have a high chance of a holding getting called. So I get what Ayers is doing there. Furman does it too to an extent.

The irony w Wofford is that if you believe lots of plays increase the chance for a penalty (which they do!)... Wofford generally has drives of numerous plays themselves. They aren't throwing many bombs. However, perhaps they are going w the premise that running plays result in less Holding calls than passing plays ?

The short answer to this is "yes." Most holding plays happen on pass plays or run plays of big gain when the runner is making a stride down field/to the second level

In a basic statistical sense, more plays of anything creates a greater probability of any outcome (touchdown, interception, pass plays, run plays, fumbles, penalties 99 yard gains, 1 yard gains, etc etc to infinity). But some plays are more probable as a baseline than others (plays that don't result in a penalty or a turnover are more probable than those that do; plays that gain yards are more probably than those that don't; completions are usually more common than interceptions; unless you're a very bad team, touchdowns are more common than turnovers).

So if you're an offensive coach, your playcalling and macro-strategy is really just balancing the probabilities. Hatcher and perhaps Spier wants a high-octane offense with 30+ possessions combined in each game; their judge that they can coach a team to score at a higher percentage per possession than their opponents. They know that some drives will be 3 and out, but their macro-strategy accomodates. Meanwhile, option offenses such as Wofford want there to be less than 20 possessions, want highly efficient offensive possessions.

Running the ball as a base strategy is more conservative and perhaps efficient (per possession) than running the air raid. The air raid has more big-play potential, and that's not to say that teams can't win with it, but there's a reason why there's been like 0 Air Raid offenses that have won National Titles at FBS/FCS (perhaps EWU's title counts).

Meanwhile, the reason the Alabamas and MVFCs of the world are more effective than the option teams or air raids is because they have the big play potential (at least per drive) of the air raids, but the ability to slow down the game and grind it out. There's a reason why Harbaugh and Saban are successful coaches everywhere they go. Their offense looks basic, but in a college football environment in which everyone is trying to out-think everyone on the micro-scale, they are the most effective and really the smartest. Meanwhile, teams that are meh with their overall talent can keep things close with the big boys (look at Furman over the Fowler years or Mercer under Lamb)

If I could change anything Wofford does as a football program, I'd bring the Power I.

[PaladinFan]

I disagree that the air raid has more "big play potential." The air raid is a possession-based offense just like Woffords, they just possess the ball by throwing it.

Samfords offense ranks 53/123 in the FCS in passing yards per completion. That ranks near the bottom of SoCon offenses (Citadel 1/123, Furman 3/123, Wofford 5/123, WCU 10/123, Mercer 33/123). I would buy an argument that any one of those offenses is probably more "quick strike" than Samfords.

Hodges is among the country's most efficient QBs, with a 66% completion percentage and over 26 completed passes per game. He is top 15 in passing efficiency, but one of only three QBs in that range with over 170 attempts. That is, he is highly efficient despite a high volume. He is 5th among SoCon QBs in yards per attempt.

Believe it or not, Samford actually averages fewer yards per play (6.10) than Wofford does (6.29). Typically, while Samford throws it a bunch, they don't throw it very far.

I think there's a misconception that air raid teams sort of just launch the ball downfield over and over again. By and large, the air raid is a possession-based offense that just opts to throw the ball instead of run it.

[Reign of Terrier]

I disagree that the air raid has more "big play potential." The air raid is a possession-based offense just like Woffords, they just possess the ball by throwing it.

Samfords offense ranks 53/123 in the FCS in passing yards per completion. That ranks near the bottom of SoCon offenses (Citadel 1/123, Furman 3/123, Wofford 5/123, WCU 10/123, Mercer 33/123). I would buy an argument that any one of those offenses is probably more "quick strike" than Samfords.

Hodges is among the country's most efficient QBs, with a 66% completion percentage and over 26 completed passes per game. He is top 15 in passing efficiency, but one of only three QBs in that range with over 170 attempts. That is, he is highly efficient despite a high volume. He is 5th among SoCon QBs in yards per attempt.

Believe it or not, Samford actually averages fewer yards per play (6.10) than Wofford does (6.29). Typically, while Samford throws it a bunch, they don't throw it very far.

I think there's a misconception that air raid teams sort of just launch the ball downfield over and over again. By and large, the air raid is a possession-based offense that just opts to throw the ball instead of run it.

But that wasn't my argument, and I don't think the data support your argument.

Namely, I better indicator of holding the ball is average TOP as well as possessions per game. It's true that Samford doesn't have as high of yardage per completion as those other teams, but I think there should be some sirens going off when the statistic you're citing shows 3 run-first teams in the top 5.

Put it more bluntly, because Samford (and I'm using them as an arbitrary example) throws it a lot 1) there's more stoppage of the clock (because more incompletions and maybe more use of the sidelines) which results in more possessions which results in more points and 2) *of course* their average per completion goes down.

They have more "big-play potential" in the sense that their OL is more habituated to pass blocking than an option team (but not necessarily a run-first pro set team) and can thus get the ball down the field pretty fast. For example, even though they didn't score, Samford got 97 yards in less than 2 minutes. A pro set team could manage that, an option team probably couldn't usually, but an air raid offense I would argue could do it more efficiently than both just because regularly passing down field is part of their offense.

Now, admittedly, that's hard to measure because you would have to look at completion percentage downfield from QBs in such systems as well as a big sample size of teams trying to run 2 minute drills.

So to put it more briefly, Air raid offenses don't have big play potential because they pass it a lot per se, but because passing is more efficient than running the ball in terms of getting yards with minimum clock. Big plays, by their definition aren't norm in any offense. Players make them. But if we're going to make assessments of general trends associated with different offensive philosophies, air raids have more big play potential than option offenses or pro sets, simply because they work with a more high risk-high reward playbook. That's not to say that they're the best offenses to run in a macro-scheme as they also have the biggest loss play potential too. To put in ways similar to Mike Ayers: when you pass the ball, bad things are more likely than good things. You can throw a completion, an interception, an incomplete pass or get sacked. Three of those four are bad.

[PaladinFan]

I don't necessarily think that big plays are just made by players.

Watch Furman's offense. The Paladins have had four straight weeks with a 60+ yard touchdown reception. All four of those long touchdown passes were made by four different players. That is not even counting the numerous 20-30+ yard passing plays and rushing plays.

None of those 60+ yard touchdown plays is just one guy "making plays." All of them were to wide open Furman receivers. If that happens once, I can buy "breakdown in coverage." When it happens every week, it is hard to argue is isn't a normal part of the offense and something that is ingrained in what Furman is trying to do offensively.

Granted, I think there are only a couple of SoCon teams that are intentionally out there trying to land haymakers on offense and focusing less on possession - Furman, WCU, and maybe ETSU. Most everyone else is pretty satisfied picking up smaller chunks and hoping to break a tackle here and there.

[FUBeAR]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

[longtimemocfan]

Western starts with a turnover. Wofford gets 3 and then Western quickly counters with 7. Wofford gets to see the firepower The Catamounts have.

[Reign of Terrier]

Western is moving the ball effectively. After one quarter they have over 100 yards of offense, many of it on the ground. That's not a good sign if you're Wofford.

Having said that Western is only up 7-3. Wofford has the ball 3rd and 4. From a drive efficiency perspective, Wofford is doing well defensively, but not in the overall yardage category

[Schism55]

Freaking lol @ the guy holding an unfolded cardboard box over his head xrotatehx

[PantherRob82]

Wofford got away with one there. Lucky the DB couldn't haul it in.

[Smitty]

Freaking lol @ the guy holding an unfolded cardboard box over his head xrotatehx


With the boy scout kids next to him sitting in the rain

- - - Updated - - -


Western is moving the ball effectively. After one quarter they have over 100 yards of offense, many of it on the ground. That's not a good sign if you're Wofford.

Having said that Western is only up 7-3. Wofford has the ball 3rd and 4. From a drive efficiency perspective, Wofford is doing well defensively, but not in the overall yardage category

We have been pretty close to making the deep ball as well

[Smitty]

What is up with the stadium sound being piped into the feed? It is pretty annoying

[PantherRob82]

What is up with the stadium sound being piped into the feed? It is pretty annoying

Thats normal in my experience. Normally more in places with bigger crowds. You can hear some pretty funny stuff on most feeds where the crowd is small.

[Reign of Terrier]

At the half, Western up 14-13. Not a bad performance by Wofford. Defense is playing well and adjusted after the first 3 drives. Western had 13 yards on the last 4 drives. Unfortunately, Wofford had a bad pitch that put Western in prime real estate to score.

This game is at a weird place in terms of pacing because it's on pace to be the kind of game Western wants (13+ compared to ~10 what Wofford wants) but the scoreboard is about what Wofford wants.

Wofford gets the ball in the second half.

[PantherRob82]

Both teams looked awful to finish the half.

[Reign of Terrier]

Wofford turns the ball over on downs inside the Western 25. I respect the call, I just disagree with it

[citdog]

Wofford turns the ball over on downs inside the Western 25. I respect the call, I just disagree with it

Take the points Coach Ayers. Even though Marvin trannyed to UGA...

[Reign of Terrier]

21-13 Western. Right now, Wofford is gambling and losing, but we're not playing terrible. Just getting out-executed.

[Reign of Terrier]

Wofford drives down, scores a touchdown and gets the 2 pt conversion. Game tied at 21 in the third

[Reign of Terrier]

End of the third quarter. Western driving inside Wofford's 25. Game tied at 21

[Smitty]

Ugh, it is painful watching our defense bite hard on option plays...

[Smitty]

Ugh, it is painful watching our defense bite hard on option plays...

But not as painful as our field goal unit...

[PantherRob82]

Overtime on the way.

[PantherRob82]

Wofford strikes first. 34-28, XP pending.

[TheKingpin28]

Those glasses on the kicker are straight fire.

[Smitty]

The Western defenders let the ball carrier get 3 yards for a TD before enclosing on him....

[PantherRob82]

35-28

[TheKingpin28]

What just happened right there? Was that a pass, and if so, in what world would one EVER make that "throw"?

And the Umpire just got trucked by the QB.

[Smitty]

Well once again some questionable calls at the end of the game (and at the 2nd half), but good game I guess?

[dewey]

Wofford hamgs on with an interception jn the endzone.

Is Wofford a top 10 team? Or is Western Carolina a top 15 team?

Dewey

[Reign of Terrier]

What just happened right there? Was that a pass, and if so, in what world would one EVER make that "throw"?

And the Umpire just got trucked by the QB.

He got called down before he threw it. Don't think it would change the outcome considering the RB went out of bounds for like a 2 yard loss

- - - Updated - - -


Wofford hamgs on with an interception jn the endzone.

Is Wofford a top 10 team? Or is Western Carolina a top 15 team?

Dewey

I would say we are definitely a top 10 team, and Western is a top 15 team.

I'll give y'all the full breakdown this week if you read the wedge ;)

[tenNesseeCat]

Congrats Wofford...good tough win!

[Smitty]

He got called down before he threw it. Don't think it would change the outcome considering the RB went out of bounds for like a 2 yard loss



Yeah it was a fluke throw but by definition the QB was not down.

The earlier penalty I mentioned was the second quarter penalty of roughing the kicker. It was very generous of the refs to give that

[centennial]

That didn't look like a catch, also rolls on the ground. Not an INT.

[Reign of Terrier]

Going into the fourth quarter, I was pleased with the effort, and knowing Western was a good team, I would have been pleased with either outcome

[Smitty]

Going into the fourth quarter, I was pleased with the effort, and knowing Western was a good team, I would have been pleased with either outcome

Unfortunately it won't show in the polls as we will probably drop back out of the top 25...

[Reign of Terrier]

The overtime stuff that happened is what happens when you have refs trying to protect the players and you don't have replay.

[AshevilleApp2]

Great game!

[Reign of Terrier]

Western is a really good team. They only need to win 3 more games to be playoff eligible, and I think they will.

[PantherRob82]

Unfortunately it won't show in the polls as we will probably drop back out of the top 25...

That would be stupid. You took a Top 10 team to OT on the road. You'll be in my poll.

[Reign of Terrier]

If you drop Western from your poll you should feel bad for being so wrong about everything

[PantherRob82]

If you drop Western from your poll you should feel bad for being so wrong about everything

I might drop Wofford a few spots though. First time seeing them this year and I'm not sure if they should be as high as I have them.

[Reign of Terrier]

I agree, right now I don't think we're a top 5 team. We are steadily improving though.

[Smitty]

If you drop Western from your poll you should feel bad for being so wrong about everything

I don't think they will drop much in the ACS poll but we were barely in the other standard polls and I feel we won't stay.

[TheKingpin28]

10: Wofford Terriers
17: Western Carolina Catamounts

This is where I had both teams entering this week, and as of right now, I could see myself raising WCU slightly and leaving Wofford where they are at. Again, that is of right now wit where the other games are at. Going on the road and taking the game to OT speaks to what WCU is doing right and what Wofford might be doing wrong. That is just me though.

[Catamount87]

Going into the fourth quarter, I was pleased with the effort, and knowing Western was a good team, I would have been pleased with either outcome

No doubt we both were treated to one hell of a football game!

My two keys of the game are a) Wofford's experience with tight games and b) field position. Looking through the statistics there is a huge amount of equality. The big glaring difference is field position. Y'all pinned us back inside the 20 and 10 a number of times and those possessions here huge in leading to good to excellent field position for y'all. Unfortunately, we didn't pin y'all back really at all. Sure we had some great punting but when you are punting from inside your 25, 20 or 15 one needs a great punt just to keep from giving up excellent field position and making it only really good field position. Last key was place kicking. Ugh, just ugh, that IMHO is what ultimately cost us the game.

[Reign of Terrier]

No doubt we both were treated to one hell of a football game!

My two keys of the game are a) Wofford's experience with tight games and b) field position. Looking through the statistics there is a huge amount of equality. The big glaring difference is field position. Y'all pinned us back inside the 20 and 10 a number of times and those possessions here huge in leading to good to excellent field position for y'all. Unfortunately, we didn't pin y'all back really at all. Sure we had some great punting but when you are punting from inside your 25, 20 or 15 one needs a great punt just to keep from giving up excellent field position and making it only really good field position. Last key was place kicking. Ugh, just ugh, that IMHO is what ultimately cost us the game.

Looking back at the stats, Western started only 3 of their 11 drives at or outside their own 25. One of them was due to a turnover and the other due to a touchback. The best starting field position for the Catamounts that wasn't off of a turnover was the 27 yard line.

[wcugrad95]

Trying to attach a picture of the hold/no hold on Wofford's first play of OT that springs their RB to the 2 yard line. Maybe we don't make the tackle, maybe they go on to score anyway, etc. But I would feel much better about our D's chances if Wofford was at 1st and 15 or 20 rather than 1st and goal at the 2. Hopefully that uploads OK, but you can go frame by frame on the ESPN3 replay and see the hold starting, then continuing as Tillman gets past the guy, to this where the guy's hands are extended as he nearly tackles the WCU defender. Worst-case there isn't a hold and we come up and at least have a chance to tackle the guy for a minimum gain. Both the RB and our Safety are roughly the same distance from the original line of scrimmage (25 yard line), so he probably gains some yardage but not 20+.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/dir-docs/catamountpride/3CAD8B00-E0FF-4320-A826-27F1C7DF3723/HoldingNoCall.png

Then the "interception" in the end zone in a bit of a frame-by-frame tell-all:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/dir-docs/catamountpride/B016F241-D150-42B3-9B18-A47392643100/Screen_Shot_2017-10-09_at_11.12.52_AM.png http://forums.delphiforums.com/dir-docs/catamountpride/8DDF7AE1-01DC-46E6-AA58-B6A35734A52B/Screen_Shot_2017-10-09_at_11.13.11_AM.png http://forums.delphiforums.com/dir-docs/catamountpride/3501B3E5-D506-4241-87A8-B18B20D6A219/Screen_Shot_2017-10-09_at_11.13.36_AM.png
Again, we would have have been in a 4th and 8 situation, and we still would have had to do something amazing to get a first down. First pic shows our WR's hands are on the ball, then the 2nd and 3rd pics here clearly show this was an incomplete pass. Robinson was open, and the pass wasn't awful (just a little late and a little behind like we saw multiple times). Credit to the Wofford defender - he seriously sold this one and got away with it!

It's over now, and some of the other things mentioned had a lot to do with the outcome of the game. The holding call wouldn't have been reviewable anyway, but I would have liked to had one more shot at an end zone or a 1st down. And hopefully this would be some kind of ammunition for the use of replay - particularly in a game that goes to OT and is between the 2 teams atop the conference standings.

[citdog]

Trying to attach a picture of the hold/no hold on Wofford's first play of OT that springs their RB to the 2 yard line. Maybe we don't make the tackle, maybe they go on to score anyway, etc. But I would feel much better about our D's chances if Wofford was at 1st and 15 or 20 rather than 1st and goal at the 2. Hopefully that uploads OK, but you can go frame by frame on the ESPN3 replay and see the hold starting, then continuing as Tillman gets past the guy, to this where the guy's hands are extended as he nearly tackles the WCU defender. Worst-case there isn't a hold and we come up and at least have a chance to tackle the guy for a minimum gain. Both the RB and our Safety are roughly the same distance from the original line of scrimmage (25 yard line), so he probably gains some yardage but not 20+.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/dir-docs/catamountpride/3CAD8B00-E0FF-4320-A826-27F1C7DF3723/HoldingNoCall.png

Then the "interception" in the end zone in a bit of a frame-by-frame tell-all:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/dir-docs/catamountpride/B016F241-D150-42B3-9B18-A47392643100/Screen_Shot_2017-10-09_at_11.12.52_AM.png http://forums.delphiforums.com/dir-docs/catamountpride/8DDF7AE1-01DC-46E6-AA58-B6A35734A52B/Screen_Shot_2017-10-09_at_11.13.11_AM.png http://forums.delphiforums.com/dir-docs/catamountpride/3501B3E5-D506-4241-87A8-B18B20D6A219/Screen_Shot_2017-10-09_at_11.13.36_AM.png
Again, we would have have been in a 4th and 8 situation, and we still would have had to do something amazing to get a first down. First pic shows our WR's hands are on the ball, then the 2nd and 3rd pics here clearly show this was an incomplete pass. Robinson was open, and the pass wasn't awful (just a little late and a little behind like we saw multiple times). Credit to the Wofford defender - he seriously sold this one and got away with it!

It's over now, and some of the other things mentioned had a lot to do with the outcome of the game. The holding call wouldn't have been reviewable anyway, but I would have liked to had one more shot at an end zone or a 1st down. And hopefully this would be some kind of ammunition for the use of replay - particularly in a game that goes to OT and is between the 2 teams atop the conference standings.

Two schools ponied up the money to have replay THIS year. They played in Charleston last Saturday.

[Reign of Terrier]

Seeing a lot of fingers pointed at the officials by the Western crowd over the last day or so.

And Wofford has replay capability. It's not rocket science. It's a matter of whether or not we'll use it in games. Don't know why we don't though

[woffordgrad94]

Speaking of bad calls and replays, if a bad call BENEFITS your team you want to try to get the next play off ASAP and never give officials a chance for reviews, or if it’s the end of the game rush to my locker room like a bat out of hell, right? I sure ain’t gonna say, “Mr. Official, that might not have been a touchdown (or interception), would you please take another look?” People talk about sportsmanship, but honestly I ain’t THAT good a sport! I don’t like injuries or cheap shots, but other than that, give me an ill-gotten win over a loss any day of the week and twice on Saturday! It’s not my fault the refs suck...and they usually do.

[wcugrad95]

I am not "that guy" who is pointing to this and saying it cost us the game. Western would have had to do something really special on a 4th-and-8 in a series that we hadn't done anything very good in so far. I was mainly pointing to the fact that I hate the game ended on that play when replay would have surely given us another shot. Western didn't have to score - we needed to get at least 8 yards. There is a high level of probability that we would NOT have gotten it, but I just wish we would have had 1 more chance.

And it is human nature that everybody always thinks the other team gets all the calls. In this case I am not blaming the loss on the calls, and some of the ones that people might question I think were either gotten right by the officials or (as is the case with the interception) would have REQUIRED a replay to get right.

[tenNesseeCat]

i still don't understand our 15 yard holding penalty!?!?!

[cx500d]

i still don't understand our 15 yard holding penalty!?!?!

Aye, but it was a vicious hold

[wcugrad95]

I did send an e-mail to Commissioner Iamarino asking about replay to get the "official" answer about where it is and when it is coming. I thought for anybody who didn't know it might be beneficial (I had heard that it was coming, but didn't know the specifics). Here is his reply:


Thank you for taking the time to assemble the elements of this email. It is unfortunate that we only have two programs using replay this season after our presidents and chancellors approved implementation beginning in 2017. All nine of our programs must have replay by the start of the 2019 season. This added time provides some the opportunity to make necessary changes to their press box facility, or invest in additional communications equipment needed for replay. Having said that, I’d be surprised if 6 or 7 of our members aren’t replay-ready by next year. Clearly it’s an integral part of today’s football.

Our coordinator of officials does a thorough video review of all our games each week and grades the performance of the officials, both on calls they make as well as the ones they don’t make. Our higher-graded officials earn the chance to work in the NCAA’s FCS playoffs at the end of the year, and perhaps be evaluated by some of the FBS conferences and invited to work there. Our lower-graded officials are in jeopardy of not being invited to be part of our roster the following season.

We believe our officials are working at a high level of efficiency, based upon not only our video review system, but also based upon input we receive weekly from our head coaches. But, of course, there’s always room for improvement and the elimination of all missed calls remains our goal, albeit an impossible one to achieve.

Again, thanks for taking the time to contact us and for your support of WCU.

Regards,
John Iamarino


John Iamarino / Commissioner
[email protected]
864-699-6106
Southern Conference
702 N. Pine Street, Spartanburg, SC 29303
www.SoConSports.com
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/[email protected]

[FUBeAR]

watched this one last night. can't believe WCU fans are being so tame about that last call. clearly an incomplete pass/not a game-ending interception & clearly would have been overturned on replay.

But...I guess if your Team also CHOOSES not to use replay and would rather place whether a game is won or lost in the hands of SoCon Officials...then you really can't gripe too much.


More than a few replays in the Mercer @ CIT game this weekend...and it WAS HOTTTT!!!!....but I don't think anyone is regretting the extra 10 minutes or so for the Officials to get the calls correct. Interestingly enough, I would say almost all of the calls reviewed were initially correct and almost all went Mercer's way. So, if review was not in place, we would have a bunch of CIT fans very upset with the officials (just as we would Mercer Fans in the opposite case). Now, there was a punt that hit a Mercer Player (kicking team) in the back which resulted in quite a scrum to possess the football...that they ruled Mercer's ball and let stand after review that maybe was incorrect. The CIT guy came out of the pile with the ball...but maybe he took after the Ref made the call that is was Mercer's and the Mercer guy on the ground let go. I don't know - it was right in front of the CIT bench, so very, very hard to see. Other than that - I think they nailed 'em all and you don't have CIT or Mercer people crying about the outcome being due to the horrible Officiating.

WIN WIN WIN

If a SoCon School doesn't have replay by 2018, their AD should be legally subjected to a blanket party hosted by all of the affected message board posters from the other SoCon Schools!!! Who's in?

[wcugrad95]

@FUBeAR - at least I am being somewhat tame in that the call didn't decide the game. It robbed us of another chance, but no guarantee we convert a 4th down for a first down or score. We had other opportunities to not do something stupid and give up a FG at the end of the first half (coulda/shoulda/woulda taken a knee). We turned the ball over 2 other times to Wofford's 1, we allowed them to have over 36 mins TOP by giving up too many 3rd down conversions, and we missed (badly) a 40-yard FG in the 4th quarter after backing-up a few yards from having a 1st down at their 19 yard line. If either of the 2 FGs are different (one never happens OR the other is converted OR best yet - both), we win the game in regulation by 3 to 6 points. But every team pretty much each week can point to several "ifs" on why they lost. I always hate using excuses of the poor officiating, because I think most fans would agree it is pretty bad on all fronts. I totally agree every school should have instant replay, and they need to institute it next season.

[citdog]

@FUBeAR - at least I am being somewhat tame in that the call didn't decide the game. It robbed us of another chance, but no guarantee we convert a 4th down for a first down or score. We had other opportunities to not do something stupid and give up a FG at the end of the first half (coulda/shoulda/woulda taken a knee). We turned the ball over 2 other times to Wofford's 1, we allowed them to have over 36 mins TOP by giving up too many 3rd down conversions, and we missed (badly) a 40-yard FG in the 4th quarter after backing-up a few yards from having a 1st down at their 19 yard line. If either of the 2 FGs are different (one never happens OR the other is converted OR best yet - both), we win the game in regulation by 3 to 6 points. But every team pretty much each week can point to several "ifs" on why they lost. I always hate using excuses of the poor officiating, because I think most fans would agree it is pretty bad on all fronts. I totally agree every school should have instant replay, and they need to institute it next season.

Well then pressure those hicks in the 'Whee to SPEND THE MONEY. KIND of hypocritical to excoriate Woffy for not having something that YOU don't have either. I know it's only been a decade or so with flush toilets and non familial marriages up there for y'all so baby steps I'm guessing???

[wcugrad95]

I want to pressure *all* the conference members, including WCU. It also has to be pushed by the league, too. I wasn't calling Wofford out - I was saying the entire league needs it. But if you read my comments, I was actually not blaming the loss on the call but on other things from the game. I only blamed the call/lack of replay on us not getting another chance to extend the game.

And as somebody who includes all the references to the Confederacy like you do, seems a little hypocritical of you to be calling somebody out about not being more with the times.

[citdog]

I want to pressure *all* the conference members, including WCU. It also has to be pushed by the league, too. I wasn't calling Wofford out - I was saying the entire league needs it. And as somebody who includes all the references to the Confederacy like you do, seems a little hypocritical of you to be calling somebody out about not being more with the times.

THE Confederacy

[SU DOG]

Unfortunately, my bet is that you won't see IR at Samford next year. Our present facility is not able to have this. Plans are on the drawing board for some terrific Seibert Stadium upgrades that would include a completely new press tower, video board, north end zone enclosing, and several other badly needed improvements. Some monies have already been raised, but no timeline announced. Samford is always slow about changes, but the end result is usually well worth the wait. I really don't think that we could see these new digs ready by next season. Maybe this ultimatum will mean we will need to meet a timeline after all. To have this revamped beautiful stadium ready for 2019, is an exciting thought for this old Dog.

[walliver]

Instant replay with only a limited number of camera angles will be problematic. Goal line cameras are usually not available on FCS ESPN3 broadcasts, and even when they are, the action is frequently blocked. For last weeks games, the sideline cameras were fogged. The last WCU ESPN3 game I tried to watch had horrible camera work as if they decided to skip using a tripod. Even when the SoCon goes all-replay in the next year or so there won't be much for the officials to use.

[Milktruck74]

Replay is not going to make much difference in the SoCon. Replay is only as good as the camera. The average NFL or SEC game has probably 40 different cameras to choose from. And a resolution that can count the hairs in Saban's Nose at 200yards..... The average SoCon game will have the single fixed camera and probably two sideline cams....then you hope those two roaming guys are in a position to actually see what is happening, instead of zooming up some girls skirt in the stands!!! It isn't going to be the fix you think it is.

[FUBeAR]

Instant replay with only a limited number of camera angles will be problematic.


Replay is not going to make much difference in the SoCon. Replay is only as good as the camera. It isn't going to be the fix you think it is.

"Good may be the enemy of Great, but Better is the Vanquisher of Awful." - FUBeAR

I've seen it in use 4 times this year - 3 at Mercer & 1 at CIT...and it was MUCH BETTER. I've seen it not in use at ETSU and not having it cost Mercer their best Defensive Player for 1/2 of a very tight ball game. I saw it (on video) not in use at Wofford against WCU, when the camera angle that WAS available clearly showed that the game-ending and, perhaps, game-determining call, in the home team's favor, was in error.

Y'all sound like the folks that didn't want cars because the noise would scare the horses. :p

[ElCid]

....then you hope those two roaming guys are in a position to actually see what is happening, instead of zooming up some girls skirt in the stands!!!

And this is a bad thing???

[citdog]

And this is a bad thing???



http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/4c/4cf45c2b0951a6226adc2a16e2afc18f5624cd02fecc0cec51 3e0ed9f13560c4.jpg

[Milktruck74]

And this is a bad thing???

Not saying it is....I've spent time in a production truck, so I know where the focus is on those cameras!!!

[FUBeAR]

Not saying it is....I've spent time in a production truck, so I know where the focus is on those cameras!!!

LOL - I used to do some work for CBS Sports and they did a 'bootleg' show they called "Live On the Dish" before NCAA Basketball games. Only people with satellites dishes could see it and this was the early/mid 80's, so not many viewers. So...one of the hosts (you would recognize their names) would go with a mic and hold a camera in his hand down by his side...and he would take along another camera guy...and he would individually interview the most attractive Cheerleader on each Team for their "show." Both cameras were on....the real camera guy doing the Head Shots...and the Interviewer's camera generating some of the original "upskirts"...while the other host at the mid-court desk peppered the Interviewer's ear with all sorts of lewd questions that he was also broadcasting (no censorship - it wasn't network stuff) and the Interviewer would then, without laughing (hopefully), ask the poor girl something much less rude, but still related to the question that the other guy asked him to ask. I think there is some kind of comedy show on now like this....but these guys were doing it almost 40 years ago...hilarious, but certainly not PC these days. FUNNY - I loved working with those guys...meeting the Cheerleaders didn't suck either...considering I was in my early 20's and single....

[Milktruck74]

LOL - I used to do some work for CBS Sports and they did a 'bootleg' show they called "Live On the Dish" before NCAA Basketball games. Only people with satellites dishes could see it and this was the early/mid 80's, so not many viewers. So...one of the hosts (you would recognize their names) would go with a mic and hold a camera in his hand down by his side...and he would take along another camera guy...and he would individually interview the most attractive Cheerleader on each Team for their "show." Both cameras were on....the real camera guy doing the Head Shots...and the Interviewer's camera generating some of the original "upskirts"...while the other host at the mid-court desk peppered the Interviewer's ear with all sorts of lewd questions that he was also broadcasting (no censorship - it wasn't network stuff) and the Interviewer would then, without laughing (hopefully), ask the poor girl something much less rude, but still related to the question that the other guy asked him to ask. I think there is some kind of comedy show on now like this....but these guys were doing it almost 40 years ago...hilarious, but certainly not PC these days. FUNNY - I loved working with those guys...meeting the Cheerleaders didn't suck either...considering I was in my early 20's and single....

My pops was a color analyst for 30 years (NFL,SWC, SEC, FB and some BB)...we had a dish (the 14' one in the back yard, as a tax write-off)...I loved those old days. You could always hear what the talent really thought about the coaching as soon as they cut to commercial break. hahahah. I also think I know who you are taliking about..in fact I think I have seen some of those segments!!!! hahaha. I wasn't in my 20s yet, but the cheerleaders def didn't suck!!!!

[Terrier19]

Would be nice to have Instant Replay throughout the conference....we sure have had many a "dicey" call go against us over the last few years.......But until it happens we have what we have. That call by no means was the reason that Wofford won the game, just put the stamp on it. First and foremost, both players had the same opportunity to come up with the ball, if the western receiver came up from the pile with the ball, guess what, would have been called a TOUCHDOWN.....secondly, I think that Wofford's defense holding Western almost 200 yards below their season averages in yards and more than 2 touchdowns less of their average scoring output may have had more of an impact in the final outcome. Or maybe Wofford being able to control the clock and run the ball for 7 yards short of 400 yards had an impact. Too many times do folks want to point to that singular play as THE REASON the game was won / lost. If that is called incomplete which could have been called, it was still 4th and 8 of an awful looking drive that opened with a bad sack and a scramble out of another sack. I do not subscribe to that type of thinking.

All that to be said, I really like that Western team, Fantastic offense. Very explosive and filled with players across the board. They are a problem to deal with. If they can shore up their defensive liabilities, they are a real challenge to prepare for.

[Terrier19]

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10th post sheesh...

[Terrier19]

Having instant replay would be great throughout the conference....until that is the norm however, no need to cry about the call. Was a tough call either way, and both players (DB and WR) had an equal opportunity to make a play on the ball. IF the receiver came up with the ball, guess what, that would have been called a TOUCHDOWN. Secondly, I think Wofford holding Western close to 200 Yards below their season average, and over 2 touchdowns below their averages while dominating the time of possession and running the ball for 7 yards short of 400 for the game were more the determining factors of the win.

That being said.....I really like that Western team. Uber explosive offense with playmakers across the board.....I think their playcalling can be sketchy at times, but that type of firepower probably corrupts the OC to feel like they can simply dial up any play at any time, and have it work. Also, shoring up that defense would be a primary concern to address. But that team is playoff caliber and a very dangerous team. Good luck to them for the rest of the season.

[wcugrad95]

Thanks Terrier19 - I agree and have stated that it didn't cost us the game, it simply cost us another chance. Stop a few of those 3rd down conversions, don't throw a pick and give up a FG late in the first half, make a 40-yard FG in the 4th quarter, etc. Plenty of reasons to point to. I actually thought the D played fairly well until they were out of gas in the 4th quarter, and that is the Wofford game plan and was caused by all the things mentioned here. I hope we both make it and have long runs in the playoffs.

[Terrier19]

Thanks Terrier19 - I agree and have stated that it didn't cost us the game, it simply cost us another chance. Stop a few of those 3rd down conversions, don't throw a pick and give up a FG late in the first half, make a 40-yard FG in the 4th quarter, etc. Plenty of reasons to point to. I actually thought the D played fairly well until they were out of gas in the 4th quarter, and that is the Wofford game plan and was caused by all the things mentioned here. I hope we both make it and have long runs in the playoffs.

Absolutely...Western impressed me.....That's a fun team to watch.....Im interested in the rest of the season for you guys.....we all have some tough sledding coming up in SoCon play and will be interesting to see how it all shakes out...we are in the middle of a tough stretch with You guys, Citadel, and Samford (and them being on BYE this week)......Good luck and injury free football to you guys going forward....