Samford Picking up another Transfer

[youcanbankit]

Ole Miss Linebacker transferring to Samford.

http://www.olemisssports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/ray_ray_smith_856435.html

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWtTyfwD8lW/

[BEAR]

Nice. Samford needed help on defense last year but still fielded a pretty good team! xthumbsupx

[PaladinFan]

Looks like Samford is making transfers an increasingly larger part of their business model in recruiting.

I have nothing against it, but I'm not a huge fan of relying on a significant number of transfer players. For no other reason, I just think it sends a bad message to the team - you can sign to play here, work hard, earn playing time, and then we still may go get a rental player to supplant you.

[SU DOG]

I don't consider a graduate student who has been on honor rolls a "Rental Player".

[PaladinFan]

I don't consider a graduate student who has been on honor rolls a "Rental Player".

I mean, we can disagree on that. I'm sure he's a fine player, high character guy, and a good student. Still appears to be someone buried on the depth chart looking for playing time somewhere else for a single season.

[SU DOG]

Taking(or not) advantage of a NCAA rule is something we can definitely disagree on. Just hope we can someday get an Ingle Martin to xfer in, and yeah I know he had two years - STILL.

[PaladinFan]

Taking(or not) advantage of a NCAA rule is something we can definitely disagree on. Just hope we can someday get an Ingle Martin to xfer in, and yeah I know he had two years - STILL.

My position on transfers has been consistent for years. If there's a guy that fills a position of need and elevates your team, then go for it.

What I disagree with is making transfers a key part of a team's roster. I feel that way for a number of reasons.

1. Most often, it does not actually make your team significantly better. I think you'll find that the teams that build through recruiting do better than the teams that rely heavily on transfers.

2. It is a diminishing return. You put effort into recruiting and get one semester out of a guy. That is not a real strong return on recruitment investment.

3. As mentioned above, it sends a message that the team is always in the market for ringers to come take your playing time.

4. Most often, these players often aren't difference makers. Ingle Martin was an exception. Joe Flacco was an exception.

5. If you have to keep plugging transfers into a roster, it suggests holes in recruiting. Teams with strong recruiting aren't constantly looking for guys to fill the depth chart.

Again, I'm not anti-transfer. I mostly consider them a non-factor until they show me something on the field. I do think a heavily reliance on transfer players is a bad idea, but that's just my opinion.

I say some of this first hand. Bobby Lamb was a guy that went after transfers, particularly at QB. He is still doing that at Mercer. While Martin was a unique exception, most of these transfers end up being under the radar role players.

[ElCid]

We obviously do not have very many so I am not worried about us really. We only get the odd graduate student using their last year of eligibility. Lately we have had a couple good ones. Filling a hole here and there on the depth chart is fine, but it really should not become a regular part of a team's recruiting strategy. I agree with PaladinFan reason though, in that if a team has a high number of transfers it really is ultimately self defeating.

[SU DOG]

We obviously do not have very many so I am not worried about us really. We only get the odd graduate student using their last year of eligibility. Lately we have had a couple good ones. Filling a hole here and there on the depth chart is fine, but it really should not become a regular part of a team's recruiting strategy. I agree with PaladinFan reason though, in that if a team has a high number of transfers it really is ultimately self defeating.

I have no idea if this kid will help us or not, but he fits the description of the grad student(lately you've had a couple of good ones you point out) wanting to play that one more year. In the SoCon we can all remember Wagner killing Western with Juco xfers from California and other parts unknown. In Samford's case let me give the example of 3 xfers who were each seniors on the 2015 team. Michael Eubank was a bust at QB. The other 2, however, went on to be really good players for Samford in the SoCon. James Bradberry was drafted and is now a starting CB with the Carolina Panthers, while DL Michael Pierce is now solidly entrenched with the Baltimore Ravens.

There are busts and there are those who excel with Ingle Martin certainly being one of the best examples. If my coach refuses a transfer who could help his team become better, then, IMO, he hasn't done his due diligence. If that xfer is better than a kid who is already on the team, then that kid needs to step up HIS game. He shouldn't have been promised anything more than a chance when he was recruited, IMO. Just my opinion, but I do respect other viewpoints.

Again, we are talking about good kids who transfer for different reasons, and definitely NOT trouble makers.

[FUBeAR]

Bobby Lamb was a guy that went after transfers, particularly at QB. He is still doing that at Mercer.

Without commenting on the merits of whatever argument it is that you are trying to make, I have to object to your statement here. What is it that those lawyer types say? - "Assumes facts not in evidence."

Mercer has played 4 seasons of Football since reviving the program and a Transfer QB has taken exactly 0 snaps in a Mercer Football game. Barring some highly unusual & unexpected turn of events, that streak will extend to 5 years. I know of QB's wanting to transfer in, who went on to start at other FCS programs, who were turned away. 1 former SEC QB Starter came back to his home state and did enroll at Mercer in Summer School as a Graduate Transfer, with 2 years of eligibility remaining, prior to the 2016 season, but that situation ended rather quickly & before Fall camp. I won't share details, but if a Head Coach was just 'going after' transfers based on athletic ability or to get a 'big-time' guy in their program, the relationship would not have ended at all.

From what I see these days, in my objective opinion, there is not a school in the SoCon that is 'loading up' on JuCo's or Transfers to the detriment of their programs. Yes, Chatt & Sammy look a wee bit heavy when you look at the numbers, but when you look at it case by case (RB Bridges at Chatt is a great example), there's usually pretty good reasons for the transfers and they just kinda make sense for the kid & for the teams.

Or...maybe, now that I'm now a 2-Team Fan, I'm just not as self-righteous as I used to be.

[FUBeAR]

(lately you've had a couple of good ones you point out)

Um...yeah...do you think El Cid's FBS Grad Transfer Kicker last year may have had some small effect on the outcome of their season...and of Samford's...and of Mercer's?

yep...still salty :-(

[ElCid]

Um...yeah...do you think El Cid's FBS Grad Transfer Kicker last year may have had some small effect on the outcome of their season...and of Samford's...and of Mercer's?

yep...still salty :-(

Hey, like I said, we did have a couple the last couple years. We had a hole we didn't think we would have, and he fit. He was pretty good, tattoos and all.:D But that was obviously the exception. I think he may have been one of the most impactful grad students we have ever had.

[PaladinFan]

Without commenting on the merits of whatever argument it is that you are trying to make, I have to object to your statement here. What is it that those lawyer types say? - "Assumes facts not in evidence."

Mercer has played 4 seasons of Football since reviving the program and a Transfer QB has taken exactly 0 snaps in a Mercer Football game. Barring some highly unusual & unexpected turn of events, that streak will extend to 5 years. I know of QB's wanting to transfer in, who went on to start at other FCS programs, who were turned away. 1 former SEC QB Starter came back to his home state and did enroll at Mercer in Summer School as a Graduate Transfer, with 2 years of eligibility remaining, prior to the 2016 season, but that situation ended rather quickly & before Fall camp. I won't share details, but if a Head Coach was just 'going after' transfers based on athletic ability or to get a 'big-time' guy in their program, the relationship would not have ended at all.

From what I see these days, in my objective opinion, there is not a school in the SoCon that is 'loading up' on JuCo's or Transfers to the detriment of their programs. Yes, Chatt & Sammy look a wee bit heavy when you look at the numbers, but when you look at it case by case (RB Bridges at Chatt is a great example), there's usually pretty good reasons for the transfers and they just kinda make sense for the kid & for the teams.

Or...maybe, now that I'm now a 2-Team Fan, I'm just not as self-righteous as I used to be.

In my view, it is sort of irrelevant whether they take any snaps. In fact, that kind of proves the point I am making (these guys aren't some sort of program-elevating talents).

I'm not passing judgment on it, just noting it. Lamb, in the 15 years I've followed his career, has not built a program reliant on transfers, but has been more likely to take a player than other coaches. In 8 years at Furman Lamb had a transfer QBs come in to be the starter from big name FBS schools for half of that tenure (Martin/Forcier).

I don't know what constitutes too many transfers. Furman played Delaware a few years ago in Greenville and it seemed like every player was a transfer. The SoCon teams are not over the top with it, but some programs are clearly more apt to take on such players than others.

[PaladinFan]

I have no idea if this kid will help us or not, but he fits the description of the grad student(lately you've had a couple of good ones you point out) wanting to play that one more year. In the SoCon we can all remember Wagner killing Western with Juco xfers from California and other parts unknown. In Samford's case let me give the example of 3 xfers who were each seniors on the 2015 team. Michael Eubank was a bust at QB. The other 2, however, went on to be really good players for Samford in the SoCon. James Bradberry was drafted and is now a starting CB with the Carolina Panthers, while DL Michael Pierce is now solidly entrenched with the Baltimore Ravens.

There are busts and there are those who excel with Ingle Martin certainly being one of the best examples. If my coach refuses a transfer who could help his team become better, then, IMO, he hasn't done his due diligence. If that xfer is better than a kid who is already on the team, then that kid needs to step up HIS game. He shouldn't have been promised anything more than a chance when he was recruited, IMO. Just my opinion, but I do respect other viewpoints.

Again, we are talking about good kids who transfer for different reasons, and definitely NOT trouble makers.

There may be others, but Martin and Flacco are examples of guys that took their programs from good teams to national title contenders.

It is important to note, though, that Martin joined a loaded Furman team. Furman had supremely talented players at every position except QB. He was able to join the team that had plenty of options in the running and passing game, a good offensive line, and an extremely good defense. It was set up perfectly for him to succeed.

The reference to Eubank, I think, is a useful one. If I recall, Eubank actually took over the reigns from another FBS transfer (whose name I forget) that started several years for them. Interestingly, Samford actually makes the playoffs when they turn the ball over to a true freshmen kid they recruited. So, the first year in four or five years the majority of the snaps go to someone other than a transfer, Samford makes the post season.

[FUBeAR]

...it is sort of irrelevant whether they take any snaps. (A)

In 8 years at Furman Lamb had a transfer QBs come in to be the starter from big name FBS schools for half of that tenure (B)

(A) Not the point. The point is that, other than in the very brief instance I cited, the 'Transfer QB's @ Mercer' assertion you threw out is just not true.

(B) So, on the average, 1 QB Transfer about every 7 seasons as a Head Coach (9 @ FU + 5 @ MU). In the reality of College Football QB Transfers we see today, I don't think many people would find that excessive. In fact, I would wager that is well below the average / D1 school since 2002.

[PaladinFan]

(A) Not the point. The point is that, other than in the very brief instance I cited, the 'Transfer QB's @ Mercer' assertion you threw out is just not true.

(B) So, on the average, 1 QB Transfer about every 7 seasons as a Head Coach (9 @ FU + 5 @ MU). In the reality of College Football QB Transfers we see today, I don't think many people would find that excessive. In fact, I would wager that is well below the average / D1 school since 2002.

As is your practice, you are intentionally obfuscating the point.

Bobby Lamb coached 9 seasons at Furman, 3 of which the starting QB was a transfer.

Mercer has played 4 seasons of football. With great fanfare he accepted a transfer QB from Vandy that was supposed to compete with John Russ. (Mercer made a big deal of it: http://mercerbears.com/news/2016/3/28/3_28_2016_1006.aspx?path=football). That guy crapped out for whatever reason, but it's not like he didn't transfer.

I'm not suggesting Lamb only runs his program on transfer players. I am suggesting that he has demonstrated a willingness in his career to accept transfer players, and especially at the QB position. I don't see how that point is really up for debate, frankly.

I'm not sure your math, but that's at least 3 transfer QBs (Martin, Forcier, McCrary) in 13 seasons of actual football (9 at Furman, 4 at Mercer). So, that's roughly 1 transfer QB every four years.

[FUBeAR]

Bobby Lamb coached 9 seasons at Furman, 3 of which the starting QB was a transfer.

I'm not sure your math, but that's at least 3 transfer QBs (Martin, Forcier, McCrary) in 13 seasons of actual football (9 at Furman, 4 at Mercer). So, that's roughly 1 transfer QB every four years.

Good to see that you updated your "math" and now are, correctly, crediting Coach Lamb with 9 seasons at FU, instead of the 8 you cited earlier.

As the opening of the 2017 season is only 6 weeks away, I'm going to go out on a limb and credit him with a 5th season at Mercer of not playing a Transfer QB or even having 1 on the in-season roster.

So, that makes 14 seasons Coached & 2 Transfer QB's that have ever played a down of Football for him during games those 14 seasons. 14 / 2 = 7. Average of 1 Transfer QB every 7 seasons.

I don't know what "obfuscating" means exactly, but if I did, I don't think I'm doing it.

Those are just indisputable facts & math; as opposed to the unfounded, oblique, disparaging allusions that initiated this exchange.

[PaladinFan]

Good to see that you updated your "math" and now are, correctly, crediting Coach Lamb with 9 seasons at FU, instead of the 8 you cited earlier.

As the opening of the 2017 season is only 6 weeks away, I'm going to go out on a limb and credit him with a 5th season at Mercer of not playing a Transfer QB or even having 1 on the in-season roster.

So, that makes 14 seasons Coached & 2 Transfer QB's that have ever played a down of Football for him during games those 14 seasons. 14 / 2 = 7. Average of 1 Transfer QB every 7 seasons.

I don't know what "obfuscating" means exactly, but if I did, I don't think I'm doing it.

Those are just indisputable facts & math; as opposed to the unfounded, oblique, disparaging allusions that initiated this exchange.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[FUBeAR]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

i resemble that remark!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg66kwRnOpw

...I think.

[FUBeAR]

Bobby Lamb was a guy that went after transfers, particularly at QB. He is still doing that at Mercer.

https://s17.postimg.org/ccu5a6qm7/IMG_0065.jpg

1 (or more) of these 3 young men; a FR, a R-JR, and/or a R-FR; all who began their college careers as Mercer Bears, will endeavor to replace John Russ this season & mark the 5th consecutive year that no Transfer QB's have even dressed out for a game for The Bears.

*Actually, it marks, at least, the 75th consecutive year with no Transfer QB's playing for Mercer, if we want to be 100% accurate. :)

[youcanbankit]

My position on transfers has been consistent for years. If there's a guy that fills a position of need and elevates your team, then go for it.

What I disagree with is making transfers a key part of a team's roster. I feel that way for a number of reasons.

1. Most often, it does not actually make your team significantly better. I think you'll find that the teams that build through recruiting do better than the teams that rely heavily on transfers.

2. It is a diminishing return. You put effort into recruiting and get one semester out of a guy. That is not a real strong return on recruitment investment.

3. As mentioned above, it sends a message that the team is always in the market for ringers to come take your playing time.

4. Most often, these players often aren't difference makers. Ingle Martin was an exception. Joe Flacco was an exception.

5. If you have to keep plugging transfers into a roster, it suggests holes in recruiting. Teams with strong recruiting aren't constantly looking for guys to fill the depth chart.

Again, I'm not anti-transfer. I mostly consider them a non-factor until they show me something on the field. I do think a heavily reliance on transfer players is a bad idea, but that's just my opinion.

I say some of this first hand. Bobby Lamb was a guy that went after transfers, particularly at QB. He is still doing that at Mercer. While Martin was a unique exception, most of these transfers end up being under the radar role players.

IMO you make some good points, and a lot of transfers dont pan out. I also think it depends on the program, coaches, and the ability to identify talent and match ups needed. There are some real successes that have sustained winning seasons building on transfers and second chances. Sam Herder from Hero sports wrote the following on Jacksonville State...

"Jacksonville State (http://herosports.com/colleges/teams/jacksonville-state-mens-football) @ Georgia Tech (http://herosports.com/colleges/teams/georgia-tech-mens-football) (Sept. 9) – Jacksonville State is a team littered with FBS talent. Mostly because a lot of its players were once on FBS teams. But taking the transfer route has led to three undefeated conference seasons and a national runner-up finish in 2015. The Gamecocks took Auburn to overtime in 2015 before losing 27-20. Last year, they lost 34-13 to LSU. Georgia Tech went 9-4 last season, but should be on upset alert against JSU, who has shown it can match up well with FBS teams."
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25528&stc=1
They seem to have a better process for identifying transfers and how they are managed than some of the other schools.

[JSUSoutherner]

IMO you make some good points, and a lot of transfers dont pan out. I also think it depends on the program, coaches, and the ability to identify talent and match ups needed. There are some real successes that have sustained winning seasons building on transfers and second chances. Sam Herder from Hero sports wrote the following on Jacksonville State...

"Jacksonville State (http://herosports.com/colleges/teams/jacksonville-state-mens-football) @ Georgia Tech (http://herosports.com/colleges/teams/georgia-tech-mens-football) (Sept. 9) – Jacksonville State is a team littered with FBS talent. Mostly because a lot of its players were once on FBS teams. But taking the transfer route has led to three undefeated conference seasons and a national runner-up finish in 2015. The Gamecocks took Auburn to overtime in 2015 before losing 27-20. Last year, they lost 34-13 to LSU. Georgia Tech went 9-4 last season, but should be on upset alert against JSU, who has shown it can match up well with FBS teams."
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25528&stc=1
They seem to have a better process for identifying transfers and how they are managed than some of the other schools.

Many of our transfers are guys who were on our radar to begin with and are guys who are looking to get more playing time close to home. Roc Thomas being the most notable example this. We don't bring in many transfers from far away places. Even our Washington State guy is an Alabama native.

We also cut back hard on the transfers. We only took two this year.

[PaladinFan]

IMO you make some good points, and a lot of transfers dont pan out. I also think it depends on the program, coaches, and the ability to identify talent and match ups needed. There are some real successes that have sustained winning seasons building on transfers and second chances. Sam Herder from Hero sports wrote the following on Jacksonville State...

"Jacksonville State (http://herosports.com/colleges/teams/jacksonville-state-mens-football) @ Georgia Tech (http://herosports.com/colleges/teams/georgia-tech-mens-football) (Sept. 9) – Jacksonville State is a team littered with FBS talent. Mostly because a lot of its players were once on FBS teams. But taking the transfer route has led to three undefeated conference seasons and a national runner-up finish in 2015. The Gamecocks took Auburn to overtime in 2015 before losing 27-20. Last year, they lost 34-13 to LSU. Georgia Tech went 9-4 last season, but should be on upset alert against JSU, who has shown it can match up well with FBS teams."
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25528&stc=1
They seem to have a better process for identifying transfers and how they are managed than some of the other schools.

I don't necessarily think that was an indicator. A 3-8 Furman team was down a single score to Michigan State last year without heavy reliance on transfers. That, to me, said more about Michigan State than Furman.

[youcanbankit]

I don't necessarily think that was an indicator. A 3-8 Furman team was down a single score to Michigan State last year without heavy reliance on transfers. That, to me, said more about Michigan State than Furman.


Good point.

It just seems some programs do a better job than others with their transfers being strong contributors.