PFL going scholarship?

[Go Green]

The Dartmouth football blog picked up an interesting quote from Stetson Coach Roger Hughes that indicated that the Pioneer Football League will be going scholarship soon.

http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2017/04/welcome-to-new-frontier.html

[DFW HOYA]

I think he was referencing Stetson, not the league.

[ccd494]

Yeah, seems more likely he means Stetson taking advantage of the ASUN/Big South deal to add scholarships and join the Big South for football only.

[clenz]

Model Citizen, since I know you'll be in this

How many PFL teams would drop football if scholarships became a thing?
Is there a cut off that some teams would be willing to go to - say 36 like the NEC used to run at?
If the league goes scholarship (again this sounds like Stetson) would the league continue as it is or would programs willing to fund scholarship ball go to the Big South, SoCon, OVC, Big Sky, or a conference willing to have them and the league dissolves?

Given all the apparent hatred of Summit schools to the MVFC and MVC, I'm all for making sure that the MVC/MVFC is protected against them trying to pull some stunt like raiding the Big Sky to start their own football league. With Drake already in the MVC and Valpo potentially in the MVC real soon, I'd love to see both commit to funding a football program at the scholarship level and truly creating a "MVC" football league - assuming it doesn't damage their basketball products.

If those two did make the decision to go scholarship, plus the addition of Murray State the MVC would have 8 football programs and YSU as an affiliate. That gives the MVC schools (and YSU) a perfect 8 game round robin schedule plus 3 OOC games

Drake
Illinois State
Indiana State
Missouri State
Murray State
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Valparaiso
Youngstown State

Yes, that is a weaker league the the MVFC. Replacing SDSU and NDSU with anyone is a step back. However, we can't control what they want to do. That would be a group of schools with a similar athletic department mission (YSU as the only outlier).

I know Model thinks I hate Drake, and it's that isn't inaccurate. I'd just love for them to be a full time rival of UNI though.

[Sycamore62]

Model Citizen, since I know you'll be in this

How many PFL teams would drop football if scholarships became a thing?
Is there a cut off that some teams would be willing to go to - say 36 like the NEC used to run at?
If the league goes scholarship (again this sounds like Stetson) would the league continue as it is or would programs willing to fund scholarship ball go to the Big South, SoCon, OVC, Big Sky, or a conference willing to have them and the league dissolves?

Given all the apparent hatred of Summit schools to the MVFC and MVC, I'm all for making sure that the MVC/MVFC is protected against them trying to pull some stunt like raiding the Big Sky to start their own football league. With Drake already in the MVC and Valpo potentially in the MVC real soon, I'd love to see both commit to funding a football program at the scholarship level and truly creating a "MVC" football league - assuming it doesn't damage their basketball products.

If those two did make the decision to go scholarship, plus the addition of Murray State the MVC would have 8 football programs and YSU as an affiliate. That gives the MVC schools (and YSU) a perfect 8 game round robin schedule plus 3 OOC games

Drake
Illinois State
Indiana State
Missouri State
Murray State
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Valparaiso
Youngstown State

Yes, that is a weaker league the the MVFC. Replacing SDSU and NDSU with anyone is a step back. However, we can't control what they want to do. That would be a group of schools with a similar athletic department mission (YSU as the only outlier).

I know Model thinks I hate Drake, and it's that isn't inaccurate. I'd just love for them to be a full time rival of UNI though.

Clenz, what do you think the budget difference is between a non-scholarship PFL school and if they added scholarships. I know a lot of them get some sort of grant or aid so they probably aren't getting full tuition money paid for by each player on the team so does it go from costing the school $1M to 3M or something since 63 students worth of tuition go to 63 students are paid by the athletic dept?

[Bisonator]

Lol make UNI great again! xlolx

[BisonFan02]

Lol make UNI great again! xlolx

Yup. They need a backup plan.

#Summitleaguefootball

[Sycamore62]

Id rather see
ISU
ISU
WIU
EIU
SIU
UNI
SEMO
MSU
MSU

That puts me within 3.5 hours of every game except UNI and Missouri St. I dont care about the level of competition. all of that comes and goes.

[GodHelpTheBears]

Id rather see
ISU
ISU
WIU
EIU
SIU
UNI
SEMO
MSU
MSU

That puts me within 3.5 hours of every game except UNI and Missouri St. I dont care about the level of competition. all of that comes and goes.

Wasn't this level created to save costs on travel? Hard to argue that point when you're flying your team to freaking Grand Forks.

This isn't far from what the original Gateway was. I'd be fine with this.

[Pinnum]

Clenz, what do you think the budget difference is between a non-scholarship PFL school and if they added scholarships. I know a lot of them get some sort of grant or aid so they probably aren't getting full tuition money paid for by each player on the team so does it go from costing the school $1M to 3M or something since 63 students worth of tuition go to 63 students are paid by the athletic dept?

The grants and aid are available to any student. For instance, at Dayton, if you are a football recruit, there is no communication with the financial aid office and the football program. The same offer that goes to the applicant as a regular student goes to the football player.

It is true that schools like Dayton, Davidson, etc, give financial aid to students (as do all schools) but it is not accurate to say that there would be little impact to the school if they went to scholarship.

The makeup of the students would be drastically different. Scholarships would attract football focused students rather than Dayton students who want to play football. Davidson doesn't want students going to Davidson because of football. They want students that want to study at Davidson and also want the opportunity to play football.

If you leave the football team at a PFL school your financial aid can not be changed. It is not tied to your athletic participation. This ensures that football doesn't get in the way of studying. The student focus is first and the football is secondary. Students are free to leave the team at any time and keep their aid. This is a stark contrast from scholarship football.

The Patriot League's AI was an attempt to limit the impact of football scholarships in hopes that it would not have a negative impact on the makeup of the student body.

There are many schools in the PFL that would eliminate their football program rather than go scholarship. They would rather spend $1m a year (their total spending on football) to attract students that want to play football than to spend $4m a year for only football players.

When you restrict scholarship budgets to only one activity, which is what football scholarship budgets do, you are removing possible funding of other students on campus. This is fine for schools that value their football programs in another manner but PFL schools (overall) have already said they only value the sport as an activity for students, not as the main social event of the campus.

[clenz]

Clenz, what do you think the budget difference is between a non-scholarship PFL school and if they added scholarships. I know a lot of them get some sort of grant or aid so they probably aren't getting full tuition money paid for by each player on the team so does it go from costing the school $1M to 3M or something since 63 students worth of tuition go to 63 students are paid by the athletic dept?
The cost of scholarships makes up the difference in budgets - mostly.

The difference, and why I think many would rather drop football, is that the grant in aid is all financial aid/university related. Not AD related. If Drake has 90 players on their roster that is 90 students paying tuition to the university, minus whatever aid is given. Compare that to scholarship ball where the athletic department is taking money from the university to "give away" to football players.

[Model Citizen]

The PFL will not.change its aid model any time soon. No incentive to do so - plus Viverito is much more comfortable being able to rationalize her involvement in two FCS leagues if one of them is non-scholarship.

Hughes may or may not be expecting scholarships at Stetson. I'm not taking his comment at face value. If Stetson football leaves for the Big South, I think Jacksonville will follow.

Long term continued membership is also questionable for (Patriot League hopeful) Marist and Morehead State. That leaves six schools that I think are fairly solid PFL members. I don't anticipate any of them dropping this sport.

Ultimately, I could see San Diego leading a push for need-based football scholarships, covering what would othetwise be student debt. The Pioneer is years away from accepting that.

Can't see Valpo or Drake joing anything resembling the MVFC. Tuition is too high, revenue is too low.

[DFW HOYA]

The Patriot League's AI was an attempt to limit the impact of football scholarships in hopes that it would not have a negative impact on the makeup of the student body.


The Patriot League's AI was an attempt to curry favor with the Ivy League for the purposes of non-conference scheduling.

[Pinnum]

The Patriot League's AI was an attempt to curry favor with the Ivy League for the purposes of non-conference scheduling.

No.

There was a reason the Patriot League didn't go scholarship for football when other sports did. Many stakeholders at the schools didn't want to see the quality of admitted students decline and see their schools be focused on athletics over academics.

The AI was a compromise to ensure that they weren't losing quality academic and athletic talent due to financial terms.

[jimbo65]

- - - Updated - - -



The makeup of the students would be drastically different. Scholarships would attract football focused students rather than Dayton students who want to play football. Davidson doesn't want students going to Davidson because of football. They want students that want to study at Davidson and also want the opportunity to play football.

.

Apparently Davidson views basketball a bit differently. Like Gtown, I suspect it is all about $.

[kdinva]

No.... Many stakeholders at the schools didn't want to see the quality of admitted students decline and see their schools be focused on athletics over academics.


Hasn't hurt Stanford and most of Vandy's sports teams.....

[jacksfan29]

Lol make UNI great again! xlolx

MUGA!!!

[jacksfan29]

Wasn't this level created to save costs on travel? Hard to argue that point when you're flying your team to freaking Grand Forks.

This isn't far from what the original Gateway was. I'd be fine with this.

Plus you might be able to compete

[DFW HOYA]

- - - Updated - - -
Apparently Davidson views basketball a bit differently. Like Gtown, I suspect it is all about $.

But it's not about $ at Georgetown. Big difference between Davidson at 1,200 FTE's and Georgetown at 17,000 across all schools.

[citdog]

But it's not about $ at Georgetown. Big difference between Davidson at 1,200 FTE's and Georgetown at 17,000 across all schools.

Georgetown is an embarrassment to the entire FCS. It's time for y'all to get the **** out.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown is an embarrassment to the entire FCS. It's time for y'all to get the **** out.

Well, if the ACC calls, I'll let you know.

[citdog]

Well, if the ACC calls, I'll let you know.

No I am speaking poorly of a school that is run by the ****ING JESUITS that cries poverty in football.

[Go...gate]

Well, if the ACC calls, I'll let you know.

Is that Georgetown's hope in the longer term?

[Pinnum]

Hasn't hurt Stanford and most of Vandy's sports teams.....

Sports teams? Do you mean academic reputation? Of course, giving athletic scholarships has not hurt their athletic prowess.

And how can you be sure there has not been a negative impact to the school in academic terms? Just because the schools are well regarded doesn't mean they haven't been held back by a football/athletic focus.

Stanford is not the top ranked school in California in the World University Rankings--that honor goes to D3 Cal Tech (where the 'Big Bang Theory' is set). Who is to say that dropping the focus on athletics wouldn't have yielded an even better academic reputation?

When you look at the Top Schools you see that the schools that don't offer scholarships are overwhelmingly the top schools. Cal Tech, MIT, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, in addition to all of the Ivy league schools and that is only if you look at researched based schools and don't include the elite Liberal Arts schools like Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore...

I think there is just as much evidence that Vanderbilt and Stanford would be just as well off, If not better off, if they weren't focused on athletics as much.

But I might be a little biased since my family has been fortunate to study at the likes of Stanford, Duke, Penn, Johns Hopkins, Chicago, Cornell, Georgia Tech, Cornell, Tsinghua, WashU-STL, as well as other quality schools. I like the Patriot League and the Pioneer. I think they have been wise to be suspicious of becoming too athletics focused.

[citdog]

Sports teams? Do you mean academic reputation? Of course, giving athletic scholarships has not hurt their athletic prowess.

And how can you be sure there has not been a negative impact to the school in academic terms? Just because the schools are well regarded doesn't mean they haven't been held back by a football/athletic focus.

Stanford is not the top ranked school in California in the World University Rankings--that honor goes to D3 Cal Tech (where the 'Big Bang Theory' is set). Who is to say that dropping the focus on athletics wouldn't have yielded an even better academic reputation?

When you look at the Top Schools you see that the schools that don't offer scholarships are overwhelmingly the top schools. Cal Tech, MIT, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, in addition to all of the Ivy league schools and that is only if you look at researched based schools and don't include the elite Liberal Arts schools like Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore...

I think there is just as much evidence that Vanderbilt and Stanford would be just as well off, If not better off, if they weren't focused on athletics as much.

But I might be a little biased since my family has been fortunate to study at the likes of Stanford, Duke, Penn, Johns Hopkins, Chicago, Cornell, Georgia Tech, Cornell, Tsinghua, WashU-STL, as well as other quality schools. I like the Patriot League and the Pioneer. I think they have been wise to be suspicious of becoming too athletics focused.

Why don't you tell the truth about this???? These schools did not and do not want those whom they consider beneath them attending there.

[Pinnum]

Why don't you tell the truth about this???? These schools did not and do not want those whom they consider beneath them attending there.

You mean people that can't read or write? Then, yes, I would agree with that statement. If you mean people from another class of society, then no that isn't accurate at all. One of the biggest problems elite schools have is that they don't get enough applicants from lower income students. It is a shame that low income students instantly think schools are out of reach when the reality is that many schools shovel money into getting them to their campus.

[GodHelpTheBears]

You mean people that can't read or write? Then, yes, I would agree with that statement. If you mean people from another class of society, then no that isn't accurate at all. One of the biggest problems elite schools have is that they don't get enough applicants from lower income students. It is a shame that low income students instantly think schools are out of reach when the reality is that many schools shovel money into getting them to their campus.

I'll add to this a little bit. I am from a working class Missouri Ozarks family and I did not know Washington University existed until I was already in college. I received an unsolicited packet of information, stickers, etc. from RPI in the mail and I threw it away because I thought it was from a for-profit school.

RPI is a step down from the tier you were referring to, but it is still a fine university, especially for students interested in a STEM major, as I was. Missouri State...well, if you want a job in the Missouri Ozarks, it is a good place to go. You won't see it on a ranking list anywhere, but it serves its purpose well. My main concerns at that time were "will I have a manageable debt load when I graduate" and "do I have a support system I can lean on when necessary", so it was between MSU and North Texas, and MSU won because it was cheap.

Still, I occasionally wonder how I would have handled RPI had I been admitted - upstate New York, highly diverse student body, RPI's reputation as a particularly challenging academic environment...

[citdog]

You mean people that can't read or write? Then, yes, I would agree with that statement. If you mean people from another class of society, then no that isn't accurate at all. One of the biggest problems elite schools have is that they don't get enough applicants from lower income students. It is a shame that low income students instantly think schools are out of reach when the reality is that many schools shovel money into getting them to their campus.

I mean the sons of West Virginia coal miners or any blue collar worker. You elitist, mostly yankee, douches want to attend your prep schools and then your colleges without any more than token representation from the working classes or minorities. Hell there is a case right now in NYC that is about segregation and liberals there sound like Dixiecrats trying to defend it...

[cx500d]

You'd still be paying it off, and probably not be doing any better than you are now. Potentially worse due to paying it off.



Still, I occasionally wonder how I would have handled RPI had I been admitted - upstate New York, highly diverse student body, RPI's reputation as a particularly challenging academic environment...

[Pinnum]

I'll add to this a little bit. I am from a working class Missouri Ozarks family and I did not know Washington University existed until I was already in college. I received an unsolicited packet of information, stickers, etc. from RPI in the mail and I threw it away because I thought it was from a for-profit school.

RPI is a step down from the tier you were referring to, but it is still a fine university, especially for students interested in a STEM major, as I was. Missouri State...well, if you want a job in the Missouri Ozarks, it is a good place to go. You won't see it on a ranking list anywhere, but it serves its purpose well. My main concerns at that time were "will I have a manageable debt load when I graduate" and "do I have a support system I can lean on when necessary", so it was between MSU and North Texas, and MSU won because it was cheap.

Still, I occasionally wonder how I would have handled RPI had I been admitted - upstate New York, highly diverse student body, RPI's reputation as a particularly challenging academic environment...


RPI is a great school! I have family that are Clarkson grads and RPI and Clarkson are kind of peers and rivals. Also have a cousin and her husband who graduated from Arkansas Tech. Know the Ozarks region a little bit.

I think you've hit the nail on the head when you mention people not being familiar with a school and not even considering it despite it maybe being a great school for them. I was in the Ozarks area talking about Education to someone and they spoke about Hendrix College and how it was a great school on par with Duke. They had not heard of many of the great schools I suggested that were outside their region.

The reality is that schools, especially private schools, love students from diverse regions of the country that they don't normally have represented in their student body.

The biggest issue, of course, is that students (and parents) are all new to the college selection process and know very little about the biggest financial decision they are about to make in their young lives. I really wish that could change. There is a big miss-match problem in college. C'est la vie...

[Pinnum]

Hell there is a case right now in NYC that is about segregation and liberals there sound like Dixiecrats trying to defend it...

You won't hear any argument from me. I know exactly what you're talking about. There are a lot of hypocrites out there...

But it sounds more like you've not interacted with these schools or people. Like most places, you'll find some you hate and some you'll be shocked at how much you have in common with and share the same views. One of the problems, of course, is that the people you want there are not applying because they believe what you stated.

[Pinnum]

You'd still be paying it off, and probably not be doing any better than you are now. Potentially worse due to paying it off.

Maybe. Maybe not.

http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors

RPI and Missouri State have large discrepancies in pay. Depending on his family's income, the difference in what he paid could be rather insignificant. The difference in average borrowing rate for the two schools is only $4k a year. (If he was lower income, I would advise RPI while if he was from a higher income family then MSU would likely be fine.)

There is a reason people still go to more expensive schools. They do see utility in them. The subsidized state schools are a better value for families that bring in higher incomes and aren't as dependent on the school generating their starting career path. This is, of course, the opposite of what is preached to most low income kids.

[kdinva]

Yeah, seems more likely he means Stetson taking advantage of the ASUN/Big South deal to add scholarships and join the Big South for football only.

+1......Stetson should do this.....plus the Big South needs FB members..... BSouth need somehow to get (back) to seven, if not eight.....

[Go...gate]

Sports teams? Do you mean academic reputation? Of course, giving athletic scholarships has not hurt their athletic prowess.

And how can you be sure there has not been a negative impact to the school in academic terms? Just because the schools are well regarded doesn't mean they haven't been held back by a football/athletic focus.

Stanford is not the top ranked school in California in the World University Rankings--that honor goes to D3 Cal Tech (where the 'Big Bang Theory' is set). Who is to say that dropping the focus on athletics wouldn't have yielded an even better academic reputation?

When you look at the Top Schools you see that the schools that don't offer scholarships are overwhelmingly the top schools. Cal Tech, MIT, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, in addition to all of the Ivy league schools and that is only if you look at researched based schools and don't include the elite Liberal Arts schools like Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore...

I think there is just as much evidence that Vanderbilt and Stanford would be just as well off, If not better off, if they weren't focused on athletics as much.

But I might be a little biased since my family has been fortunate to study at the likes of Stanford, Duke, Penn, Johns Hopkins, Chicago, Cornell, Georgia Tech, Cornell, Tsinghua, WashU-STL, as well as other quality schools. I like the Patriot League and the Pioneer. I think they have been wise to be suspicious of becoming too athletics focused.

Agreed.

[Go...gate]

I mean the sons of West Virginia coal miners or any blue collar worker. You elitist, mostly yankee, douches want to attend your prep schools and then your colleges without any more than token representation from the working classes or minorities. Hell there is a case right now in NYC that is about segregation and liberals there sound like Dixiecrats trying to defend it...

What's wrong with prep schools?

[cx500d]

Maybe. Maybe not.

http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors

RPI and Missouri State have large discrepancies in pay. Depending on his family's income, the difference in what he paid could be rather insignificant. The difference in average borrowing rate for the two schools is only $4k a year. (If he was lower income, I would advise RPI while if he was from a higher income family then MSU would likely be fine.)

There is a reason people still go to more expensive schools. They do see utility in them. The subsidized state schools are a better value for families that bring in higher incomes and aren't as dependent on the school generating their starting career path. This is, of course, the opposite of what is preached to most low income kids.

It depends on what the major is. RPI is skewed high because of tech focus. Misery state is skewed low because of all the non tech degrees.

I love it here where I live now when I see the teachers at the local schools with their degrees from smu, Baylor, tcu, etc. really? Private school tuition for a degree that would have been a quarter as much at north Texas, Texas tech, etc. I guess if daddy was paying for it, but they aren't making any more then those that went to a public school. I for one, as a daddy, won't pay for a private school when there are suitable public schools. As long as they are accredited by the same organizations, they are just fine.


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