Mid-Major Persecution Files: Butler AD name I-AA ADA head

[henfan]

Congrats to Butler and John Parry. Parry will now head the conspiracy to keep mid-major conferences out of the I-AA tournament. Up until now, he's only been involved as a VP. ;)

http://butlersports.collegesports.com/genrel/071205aae.html

[bluehenbillk]

Conspiracy please, if the "mid-majors" are 1-AA than the Pope is a Muslim. Call a spade a spade, they're D-3 programs.

[yomama]

Congrats to Butler and John Parry. Parry will now head the conspiracy to keep mid-major conferences out of the I-AA tournament. Up until now, he's only been involved as a VP. ;)

http://butlersports.collegesports.com/genrel/071205aae.html


I'm shocked that someone on this board doesn't understand who awards playoff bids. Well, it isn't the athletic directors' association.

I don't know what he intends to accomplish in his new position, but I'm sure he'll work from the point of view that the Pioneer is a I-AA league.

[GOTIME]

if people went by bluehenbillk there would only be about 20 division I-AA teams. People from U Delware are dicks man, not just from this board but from experiences at the University as well. Its really pathetic that you try to make constantly put down schools and programs from your own classification to try to make yourself look better. Im just calling a spade a spade.

[Bub]

Well, certainly there is not a lot of I-AA love thrown the Mid-Majors way by many on the board.

[laparka316]

Yeah, it almost makes me want to boycott following I-AA scholarship football, because of all the people who bash non-scholarship football on here for no reason...

[ngineer]

You guys have a valid point. There is a condescending drift that passes throughout the board when mid-majors are discussed. We even get some of that, too, since we're somewhere between mid-major and full scholarship together with the admissions restrictions. Be that as it may, you just have to be proud of your programs for what they represent--what the original intent of college football was supposed to be--the students at one school playing the students of another school. Tis' not a perfect world, but it sure is better than the cesspool of I-A. Hang in here, and take part!

[yomama]

schools that keep football on campus at the D-I level

Please explain.

[yomama]

So you don't know what you mean either. :confused:

[yomama]

The MAAC has done a terrible job of saving football "on campus" or anywhere else. In case you weren't paying attention, you strange little man, MAAC programs have been slipping away.

[ccujacket]

Yeah, it almost makes me want to boycott following I-AA scholarship football, because of all the people who bash non-scholarship football on here for no reason...
Sorry but as a Big South fan it's hard to have much sympathy for the way they treat the Mid-Majors.

[maacfb]

Even though a Mid Major will never contend its still good to have them around imo. Its not those schools faults that the NCAA mandated that if bball is D-1 everything else must be. Honestly Id call the level of play at the better Mid Majors above D3 football. now when you get to the duldrums of Mid Major there are some bad teams. I think there are a few Mid Majors with potential, its just a shame that the MAAC is crumbling while the NEC seems to be doing well.

[henfan]

I'm shocked that someone on this board doesn't understand who awards playoff bids. Well, it isn't the athletic directors' association.

Playoffs?! Where in the title of my thread have I mentioned playoffs? :confused:

Wow, I've given you way too much credit, 'Mommy. I'm stunned that any self-respecting member of the Oliver Stone Conspiracy Buster Club (Mid-Major Division) wouldn't recognize that the vast plot against I-AA schools offering few football equivalancies goes far beyond the scope of awarding playoff bids. For over a decade, The Man's keeping them down at every possible turn. What, you didn't know that? :rolleyes:

For those of you who were totally lost on the implication, Parry's re-appointment is further evidence that low equity football programs do indeed play an integral and welcome role in the operation of the I-AA sub-division, and, yes, that includes the playoffs. Mid-major conferences continue to place reps in position of power within the I-AA structure (including NCAA D-I Management Council) far above the measley PSC or its parent I-AA Football Committee.

Seems that change could be effected if it was truly desired by the low equity conferences and especially if it benefited them and the sub-division as a whole. At a minimum, the low equity conferences certainly maintain enough control within the highest levels of the sub-division to be able to manage any plot against them orchestrated from the lower levels. Doncha think?

[GannonFan]

if people went by bluehenbillk there would only be about 20 division I-AA teams. People from U Delware are dicks man, not just from this board but from experiences at the University as well. Its really pathetic that you try to make constantly put down schools and programs from your own classification to try to make yourself look better. Im just calling a spade a spade.

No actually taking away the teams he refers to, those teams from the 3 mid-major conferences, that would take away 22 teams - so I would believe that would leave us a little under 100 teams. And seeing how you have personal issues with Delaware that are obviously clouding your judgment, I guess being off by 80 or so teams is a legitimate math error. He's saying something even the mid-majors say themselves - if not for the arbitrary rule by the NCAA, all of these schools would be DIII today, playing in exactly the same conferences but at that level. That's where the criticism comes from because they are DIII programs, but have had to label themselves as IAA - as they come nowhere near fielding the same level of teams as the other 100 or so teams in IAA (note, that means a lot of other teams other than Delaware), it makes DIAA look like a lesser classification as schools that are really DIII (and were they even good DIII schools then? I don't recall any of these teams being DIII powers). I have nothing against these schools nor their desire to field football teams, I just have something against the NCAA making a mockery of IAA football by saying these teams are the same as the rest of the teams in IAA. But I'm sure since I sport a Delaware avatar you never made it past the first sentence. Oh well, just keep hatin'.

[yomama]

Playoffs?!



Parry will now head the conspiracy to keep mid-major conferences out of the I-AA tournament.


This is a football board. I assume you meant the I-AA football playoff.

[maacfb]

"That's where the criticism comes from because they are DIII programs, but have had to label themselves as IAA - as they come nowhere near fielding the same level of teams as the other 100 or so teams in IAA (note, that means a lot of other teams other than Delaware)"

this is a true statement

"it makes DIAA look like a lesser classification as schools that are really DIII (and were they even good DIII schools then? I don't recall any of these teams being DIII powers). "

this is ridiculous bc those who actually follow 1-AA understand the mid major ranks & as long as those schools dont get an auto bid (which they dont deserve) they hurt no one. those who dont follow 1-AA dont gives two s***s about Mid Major or Delaware for that matter. to them 1-AA is inferior to 1-A bar none. no mid major is dragging down 1-AA's rep. 1-AA's rep is damaged bc these schools have decided to award less than 85 scholarships and the fact that a sub classification exists. just the name 1-AA is inferior to that of Division 1 and to the average fan that all that matters

[maacfb]

to add to this if Mid Majors started scheduling games against D 1 opponents from BCS conferences and proceded to be down by 80 at the half, than 1-AA's rep would be affected bc than the avergae fan sees a 1-AA get massacred on TV with no idea of the subclassification that exists w/i 1-AA.

[bluehenbillk]

If idiots who don't know the first thing about football, like gotime, want to rip myself or other Delaware posters, even though it has nothing to do with UD go ahead.

The facts are the facts, many, (I'd probably say the majority of, wo/ checking the #'s) of the "mid-majors" are in 1-AA because the NCAA mandated if they had a D-1 hoops team they needed to be "D-I" in all sports. These schools BEFORE this ruling were for the most part D-3 or didn't exist at all. Being that they're still non-scholly can someone tell me what has changed from before this ruling other than the re-classification of 1-AA status??

Believe me, I like 1-AA football, but you can't tell me the A-10 & the Southern are equal to the MAAC or the NEC.

[maacfb]

where did I say that?? I admitted in my first post that that aspect of it is true but to think mid major hurts the 1-AA name is stretching it big time especially when none of those teams even play high profile teams where the average college football fan would see them

[blukeys]

but to think mid major hurts the 1-AA name is stretching it big time especially when none of those teams even play high profile teams where the average college football fan would see them

No, where it hurts the reputation of I-AA is when a "mid - major" loses to a Division III team and this happens every year. This leaves in the mind of at least the D-III fans that D-III is close to I-AA. There is not a D-III team in the nation that can stay close to a team from the A-10, or Southern Conference. And yes I see at least one quality D-III game a year in person.

Nowhere have UD fans "attacked" mid major type football. I am on record for admiring the fact that they are truly no financial aid for football. What UD and other I-AA fans are opposed to are automatic playoff bids for mid major conferences.

One poster has stated that undefeated mid major teams have been shafted by some conspiracy. He has yet to name a team that this happened to or how this fictional team deserved to be in the playoffs. That is the reason for the title of this thread.

Bluehenbillk is correct most mid majors are I-AA because they want to play D-I basketball. This is especially true of Drake and Butler. Prior to the NCAA rule which required Drake to be in D I-AA, Drake was a very competitive quality D-III program. This is where most mid-majors belong and they could then compete for a national title . If you consider this an insult then you don't appreciate the fact that some very good football is played at this level at places such as St. Johns, Union, and Rowan.

[Bub]

Oh for pete sake. Heaven forbid some D-III fan might think their level of football is as good as I-AA, because they beat some some non scholly I-AA. Guess what, go to an NAIA board or D-III board and you'll see some debate about who's better D-III vs NAIA vs D-II. Isn't this the sort of debate that we all enjoy. So what if some D-III fan thinks their team is better than I-AA, because they beat some non scolly team. I consider myself an above average football fan and before my son started looking at schools, I frankly didn't know many of these schools or levels existed. All I knew was BSC and little schools. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that is the average fan view. A loss of this type has zero impact on I-AA status, because for the average fan I-AA has no status. Football is BCS and little schools. If a good D-III beats a poor non scolly I-AA, it means that a better team won, not a better division. If you don't accept this than you must believe that a win by a good fully funded I-AA over a bad I-A establishes I-AA is a better division than I-A, but clearly we don't do that. Not all I-A programs field teams at the same level of commitment, but we don't seek to boot those teams from I-A. Look at I-AA the same way.

[yomama]

...you must believe that a win by a good fully funded I-AA over a bad I-A establishes I-AA is a better division than I-A, but clearly we don't do that.

Oh yes they do.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[blukeys]

I frankly didn't know many of these schools or levels existed. All I knew was BSC and little schools. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that is the average fan view....... Football is BCS and little schools.


That is precisely the kind of thinking many folks on this board are annoyed with and part of the frustration of trying to educate "the average fan" about the difference between the quality of I-AA football and the other "little schools". As long as schools labeled as I-AA are getting beat by teams from the lowest level of college football it makes it much more difficult to convince the "average fan" that there is in fact a difference between the "little schools".

It is generally acknowledged on this board that the best in I-AA can beat the mid to lower I-A's but not the highest ranked BSC teams.

As I stated my chief problem is with those individuals who believe that mid-major teams are being shafted out of playoff berths by some sort of of I-AA conspiracy. Are you of the mind that I-AA conferences deserve an autobid to the playoffs?

[UM_Minuteman]

sorry to tell you MAACFB but 1-aa mid major football programs are a joke. i personally was on one. of these teams and it was nothing like the other 1-aa programs. in mid major programs anyone who wants to put on pads and the uniform can come onto a team and say they play football; they also have absolutly no fan support. DIII progams can easily beat these teams and there are proven facts that show this.

[Bub]

sorry to tell you MAACFB but 1-aa mid major football programs are a joke.
in mid major programs anyone who wants to put on pads and the uniform can come onto a team and say they play football;This comment illustrates one of the problems in this discussion- generalizations! While Minuteman's school may have operated that way, not all do. To my knowledge D-III has no official visits, anyone really can show up and ask to play. However, in at least one I-AA non scholly program players are recruited, the must be recruited for an official visit, the player bound by the NCAA 5 official visit rule and walk ons are not even permitted. A very different experience from what Minuteman had. Just like all I-A & I-AA scholarship programs are not the same, I-AA non schollies aren't all the same. We are painting with too broad a brush!

[Bub]

No, football is pros, BCS (all I-A is BCS), and college football divisions I-AA, II and III. There is also NAIA etc. Know there is a difference.


I know the difference NOW. :o Before my son started looking at schools I really didn't. I was equating my lack of knowledge then to be tsimilar to that of the average fan. Perhaps my knowledge then was substandard, even for the average fan. I hope it is better now. :D

[Bub]

Are you of the mind that I-AA conferences deserve an autobid to the playoffs?

I'm not really sure where I'm at on this point. To be honest I don't have enough information to put forth a defensible position. I do think there is a difference, in my opinion, between the D-III's I've seen and the I-AA non schollies I'm familar with. I'm sure there are I-AA non schollies and D-III that are the same, no doubt. I just don't think the top programs are. A couple years ago St. Ambrose, an NAIA team beat Western Illinois. I don't think this means NAIA is better the I-AA, it just means the better team won that day.

[blukeys]

This comment illustrates one of the problems in this discussion- generalizations! While Minuteman's school may have operated that way, not all do. To my knowledge D-III has no official visits, anyone really can show up and ask to play. However, in at least one I-AA non scholly program players are recruited, the must be recruited for an official visit, the player bound by the NCAA 5 official visit rule and walk ons are not even permitted. A very different experience from what Minuteman had. Just like all I-A & I-AA scholarship programs are not the same, I-AA non schollies aren't all the same. We are painting with too broad a brush!

Bub you seem like a thoughtful guy so don't get your panties in a knot. No one wants to dis all of the mid major programs. Yes, there are differences within I-AA mid majors as there are differences within all the levels of football.

The title of this thread and the initial post by henfan was a humorous slap at a mid major advocate who claims there is a conspiracy of I-AA schools who deny mid-major schools their rightful place in the I-AA playoffs. (Read the thread "Is Holy Cross a division I team?") The fact that this mid major advocate has yet to give one specific example of his conspiracy claim just demonstrates how lame his claims are.

I am friends with a coach of a local D-III college team that is somewhat successful (they have been over .500 for the last 12 years) and I can assure you that serious recruiting goes on at this level. I don't know what the specific rules are for D-III but I can know that the coaches are in regular contact with players that they want.

The reality is that any player who is playing at ANY college level is better than 90% of the high school players he competed against. College athletics in all sports in all levels is a full time job that requires a huge commitment from the student athlete.

[GOTIME]

[QUOTE=blukeys]That is precisely the kind of thinking many folks on this board are annoyed with and part of the frustration of trying to educate "the average fan" about the difference between the quality of I-AA football and the other "little schools".
Maybe you should educate yourselfs on mid-major football before putting up negative statements about it. U know very little if anything at all about the teams you rip. Just look into it first before putting a blank statement about I-AA. Someone in a prior post stated that he wondered if any of these MID-MAJOR teams were even good at D-III, well Wagner won the National Champ. in 89. Did any poster even know that the NEC gave out money? Probably not, but you still lump then in with MAAC teams as being equal.

Yes some Mid-Majors lose to D-III schools from time to time, but so do A-10 schools Delaware to West Chester, Villanova in 01, Montana in 01, and Coastal Carolina last year, but I dont say that D-II is equivalent to I-AA.

[GOTIME]

Just like all I-A & I-AA scholarship programs are not the same, I-AA non schollies aren't all the same. We are painting with too broad a brush!
EXACTLY MY POINT after a genius quote from the MINUTEMAN

[ngineer]

[QUOTE=blukeys]That is precisely the kind of thinking many folks on this board are annoyed with and part of the frustration of trying to educate "the average fan" about the difference between the quality of I-AA football and the other "little schools".
Maybe you should educate yourselfs on mid-major football before putting up negative statements about it. U know very little if anything at all about the teams you rip. Just look into it first before putting a blank statement about I-AA. Someone in a prior post stated that he wondered if any of these MID-MAJOR teams were even good at D-III, well Wagner won the National Champ. in 89. Did any poster even know that the NEC gave out money? Probably not, but you still lump then in with MAAC teams as being equal.

Yes some Mid-Majors lose to D-III schools from time to time, but so do A-10 schools Delaware to West Chester, Villanova in 01, Montana in 01, and Coastal Carolina last year, but I dont say that D-II is equivalent to I-AA.

I believe West Chester and Hampton are D-II schools and not D-III. The D-II's have many more recruiting advantages in terms of scholarships and financial aid packages than those used at D-III level.

[GOTIME]

My mistake, I meant to put D-III for the reference, i was rushing

[GOTIME]

D-II my fault again

[Bub]

Blukeys: My panties aren't in a bind, I don't even wear panties ;) I know the original point of the post, it has gone off kilter, but it seems to be a topic of some interest.

As to D-II, like NAIA they do have money, but frankly not very much. 36 & 24 equivilencies max, many with conference regs limiting them to less. spread this around 110 players or so and it doesn't provide for much per player. To my knowledge players at at least one I-AA non scholly turned down D-II and NAIA money to go Mid Major.

I agree D-III's do recruit, but it is a different type of recruiting. It's a given, most kids want to go to the highest level they can. This requires D-III coaches to put forth an almost mind bogling level of contact with potential recruits, but they are in a tough position to compete with the other divisions. The fact that they can now have some type of spring ball may help them. I know of at least one kid who gave up a I-AA scholly to follow his brother and play at a D-III school. I agree 100%, no matter what level you're at to play college ball is a huge undertaking. My son chose Mid-Major, because of the quality of the education offered at his school and the fact the athletic facilities and coaches were outstanding, but we looked at some very good NAIA, D-II & D-III schools, any of which his mother and I would have been pleased for him to attend. It's all good. :)

[blukeys]

xsmoochx xsmoochx

Glad to see we can kisss and make up.

[yomama]

My son chose Mid-Major, because of the quality of the education offered at his school and the fact the athletic facilities and coaches were outstanding, but we looked at some very good NAIA, D-II & D-III schools, any of which his mother and I would have been pleased for him to attend. It's all good. :)

I'm guessing that "mid-major" wasn't in your football vocabulary until you discovered this board. Didn't your son choose a I-AA school?

On a side note, Drake is fortunate that Ivy League schools don't put many resources into recruiting Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, and Minnesota. It seems everyone has their prejudices. :p

[ngineer]

[QUOTE=ngineer]Hampton is D-I and plays I-AA. In fact they were in the playoffs last year and nearly advanced to the quarterfinals.

You're right Ralph--but who was it that knocked off Villanova a few years back that was a D-II school, which I thought started with an 'H' and was from Connecticut?

[Bub]

I'm guessing that "mid-major" wasn't in your football vocabulary until you discovered this board. Didn't your son choose a I-AA school?

On a side note, Drake is fortunate that Ivy League schools don't put many resources into recruiting Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, and Minnesota. It seems everyone has their prejudices. :p


I had no idea what a mid major was. It seemed easier to type than I-AA non scholarship. But yes he proudly chose Drake, a I-AA university. :)

[ngineer]

[QUOTE=ngineer]The University of New Haven, who coincidentally had this bit of news released yesterday:

UNH looks to make charge into NE-10, bring back football
New Haven Register
http://www.nhregister.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14863916&BRD=1281&PAG=461&dept_id=517515&rfi=8

The University of New Haven wants to join the Northeast-10 Conference and the NE-10 is examining the feasibility of expanding its 15-team conference.

Dr. Steven Kaplan, the university’s president, also said if New Haven is accepted by the Northeast-10, strong consideration would be given to bringing back football.

"We would need some private funding," Kaplan said. "But with the response we received last year, I believe we could get the support needed from donors."

New Haven is a member of the New York Collegiate Athletic Conference, which does not sponsor football. The Chargers, who played in the 1997 NCAA Division II championship game, dropped their football program in 2004 for financial reasons. The cost of running an independent scholarship program with a national schedule was too much.

The Northeast-10, which has 10 football schools, expanded to 15 schools in 2000 after the addition of Southern Connecticut State, UMass-Lowell, Franklin Pierce, St. Rose and Southern New Hampshire. ...

Well, I got it sorta 'half right'--with the 'H' for Haven. Thanks. Hard to believe that a program that was that successful went down the tubes so fast. Hope they get their mojo back.

[yomama]

It's good to see a reasonable adult voice on this board, Bub.

With that, I'm leaving the inmates to you and leaving this asylum.

Happy trails.

[arkstfan]

I hate the term "mid-major" for the Division III refugees. If Division I ball is "major" the term implies they are in the middle of the level. They most certainly aren't.

I'm not against those schools, I just recognize that they have different goals and aims than the rest of Division I when it comes to the sport of football.

[foghorn]

I hate the term "mid-major" for the Division III refugees. If Division I ball is "major" the term implies they are in the middle of the level. They most certainly aren't.

I'm not against those schools, I just recognize that they have different goals and aims than the rest of Division I when it comes to the sport of football.

Maybe a better word than 'goals' would be 'agenda'. It appears their real agenda is to satisfy their need to continue playing D-I basketball, instead of participating competitively in D-1 football. No one is putting down any of these non-scholly schools; it's the assinine rules by the NCAA where the real problem exists.
Since the NCAA arbitrarilly gives these schools D-1AA status, why not just give them D-1A status? Since these programs don't exemplify what D-1 (A and AA) is all about,and yes, that means 'scholarships', why not? Not in a million years!! D-IA gets too much respect for that, while D-IAA is just obedient like a good little soldier.
Can't understand why D-1AA advocates ignore the lack of hard core parameters to truly distinguish D-1AA football from those in 'name' only. To suggest that non-scholly football doesn't take away from D-1AA prestige is utter rationalization.
It takes a huge effort and dedication to field a D-1 team. Not all schools are equipped to do that, but there's a place for them , it's called D-III. My son played D-III, it's a lot of fun, but it's NOT Div. IAA. Instead of being critical of UD's fans and most others from D-IAA programs, it would be better to direct an effort for the NCAA to change that ridiculous 'basketball status' rule. Never would've believed in a million years that basketball would take priority over THE sport. Go Hens! :cool:

[Bub]

By George, I think I've finally got it! If only the Drake's, San Diego's, Dayton's and Duquesne's of the I-AA world would stop clouding the football publics mind with their I-AA existance and go back to wherever they truly belong, the Delaware's and Arkansas State's of I-AA, having been released from the yoke of "mid majors", will finally be given the respect they deserve. Undoubtedly the major tv networks will soon be knocking on their doors begging to be allowed to televise their games rather than those lackluster Big 10, Big 12, Notre Dame, ACC and SEC games that everyone is so tired of. :rolleyes:

[GannonFan]

By George, I think I've finally got it! If only the Drake's, San Diego's, Dayton's and Duquesne's of the I-AA world would stop clouding the football publics mind with their I-AA existance and go back to wherever they truly belong, the Delaware's and Arkansas State's of I-AA, having been released from the yoke of "mid majors", will finally be given the respect they deserve. Undoubtedly the major tv networks will soon be knocking on their doors begging to be allowed to televise their games rather than those lackluster Big 10, Big 12, Notre Dame, ACC and SEC games that everyone is so tired of. :rolleyes:

Arkansas St is in the Sun Belt Conference in DIA.

[Bub]

My bad, I assumed that since Arkstfan was on this board bemoaning I-AA non schollies, that his school was I-AA as well. And yes I know what assuming does to You and me. ;)

Isn't Ark St. a pretty small for a school in I-A football? Delaware is larger in student population right?

[Go...gate]

Drake sounds like a hell of a good fit for the Patriot League! :nod:

[Bub]

Drake sounds like a hell of a good fit for the Patriot League! :nod:


I think so too. As an aside, one of my son's good friends will be attending Colgate this fall, although not as a football player.

[GannonFan]

My bad, I assumed that since Arkstfan was on this board bemoaning I-AA non schollies, that his school was I-AA as well. And yes I know what assuming does to You and me. ;)

Isn't Ark St. a pretty small for a school in I-A football? Delaware is larger in student population right?

Size of schools means little in terms of classification, especially as you get higher in classifications. UD has enrollment of 21,238, certainly one of the bigger ones in IAA. West Chester, in DII, is just shy of 13,000. Both of which are higher than Notre Dame (11,415) and Rice (4,855), both IA schools. Arkansas St has an enrollment of 16,497.

[arkstfan]

My perception is that I-AA has better respect in the south than it does in the Northeast, and I think that it has a great deal to do with the fact that the Northeast is a huge media hub with a ton of non-scholie programs.

You cannot fairly compare say New Hampshire's program to Monmouth's or Iona's.

New Hampshire is playing football awarding more scholarships to football players than about 70% of all NCAA football playing members. Monmouth and Iona are on the other end of the spectrum.

The NCAA recognizes the difference. If Arkansas State were to play a home game against Northern Iowa, we could count it toward bowl eligibility and toward our home game requirement. If we play Drake, we don't get to count it. They are both I-AA schools located in Iowa but one is high scholie and one is not.

[ngineer]

Drake sounds like a hell of a good fit for the Patriot League! :nod:

About 5-10 years ago Drake showed up on a future Lehigh schedule, but then something happened that resulted in another team replacing them. Could have been the game at Wofford, but never found out why the change occured. I've always heard good things about the Drake program. Unfortunately the distance would be prohibitive in joining the PL.

[dbackjon]

Maybe a better word than 'goals' would be 'agenda'. It appears their real agenda is to satisfy their need to continue playing D-I basketball, instead of participating competitively in D-1 football. No one is putting down any of these non-scholly schools; it's the assinine rules by the NCAA where the real problem exists.
Since the NCAA arbitrarilly gives these schools D-1AA status, why not just give them D-1A status? Since these programs don't exemplify what D-1 (A and AA) is all about,and yes, that means 'scholarships', why not? Not in a million years!! D-IA gets too much respect for that, while D-IAA is just obedient like a good little soldier.
Can't understand why D-1AA advocates ignore the lack of hard core parameters to truly distinguish D-1AA football from those in 'name' only. To suggest that non-scholly football doesn't take away from D-1AA prestige is utter rationalization.
It takes a huge effort and dedication to field a D-1 team. Not all schools are equipped to do that, but there's a place for them , it's called D-III. My son played D-III, it's a lot of fun, but it's NOT Div. IAA. Instead of being critical of UD's fans and most others from D-IAA programs, it would be better to direct an effort for the NCAA to change that ridiculous 'basketball status' rule. Never would've believed in a million years that basketball would take priority over THE sport. Go Hens! :cool:

Basketball takes priority because that is what makes the NCAA the money. The NCAA tournament, to be exact. And the rule is intended to prevent schools from sponsoring a minimum level of teams, but cashing in on the NCAA tournament - thus the rule, if you want to play D-I basketball, all your sports have to be D-I.

[Bub]

About 5-10 years ago Drake showed up on a future Lehigh schedule, but then something happened that resulted in another team replacing them. Could have been the game at Wofford, but never found out why the change occured. I've always heard good things about the Drake program. Unfortunately the distance would be prohibitive in joining the PL.


Drake knows about distance. This year they travel to San Diego and North Carolina, last year it was Jacksonville Fl. Every year they play Butler from Indianapolis and Dayton from Ohio. Joining probably not likely, but some games would be great. :cool:

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I see I-AA as a big tent. I don't feel like we should exclude certain members because (to some) rules have made their D-III programs into D-I-AA, or that they don't participate in the playoffs (Ivy) or that they make it very hard for their teams to participate in the playoffs (SWAC), or that some schools have equivalencies instead of "true" scholarships (Patriot), or or or. Like it or not, I-AA is a confederation of many different schools and leagues, and their variances are much greater than Division I-A schools. I think it's counterproductive to want to say some schools suck because they choose to operate differently.

It's great if a Delaware beats an Mississippi State, or a Southern Illinois beats an Eastern Michigan. But conversely, those losses are not humiliating for I-A football as a whole - just to the pride of Mississippi State and Eastern Michigan fans. Similarly, if Tuskeegee beats Texas Southern, it's not humiliating for I-AA fans as a whole - just to the pride of Texas Southern fans. This idea that every I-AA loss to an out-of-division school is humiliating to all of I-AA is just wrong. Do UCLA, Kansas State, or Boston College fans moan and groan that Eastern Michigan and Mississippi State are bringing down I-A football? Not really - they're more concerned about their title chances and bowl eligibility.

Point is: it seems like these threads degenerate into "any school which is different from an prototypical A-10 playoff school should be kicked out of I-AA". To which I say: Stop moaning and groaning about schools that are different from your school since they don't choose to be in the playoffs, are an HBCU, or don't give the full allotment of I-AA schollies. We're all great and we're all different - that's what makes it great.

[arkstfan]

To which I say: Stop moaning and groaning about schools that are different from your school since they don't choose to be in the playoffs, are an HBCU, or don't give the full allotment of I-AA schollies. We're all great and we're all different - that's what makes it great.

Ugh, I still find it hypocritical that certain schools won't participate in the I-AA playoffs because it's "too much" but would never dream of turning down an invite to the highly profitable basketball tournament or the less profitable NIT, or send their teams and individuals off to NCAA championships that clearly conflict with class time. I'll use one of my two cents to say that it's cheap showmanship.

I'll use the other to say I-AA has to play the hand dealt it and that hand includes schools that don't offer scholies in football, those that limit aid below the subgroup maximum, and those that offer at the limit.

Division II and III have made their case and won't let the low limit and no award schools to return their football to their ranks. Division I has shown no desire to create another subgroup for those schools well under the I-AA award limit. That means digging out the lemonade receipes.

[Bub]

Here's the argument being presented. A I-AA non scholly team loses to a D-III school. This loss makes Delaware(or any other fully funded I-AA) look bad in the eyes of the greater football fan public.

The logical conclusion of this argument is, a loss by Arkansas State(or any other non bcs I-A team) to Delaware(or any other fully funded I-AA) makes Michigan look bad.

Seems like sort of a ridiculous argument when presented that way doesn't it? :(

[arkstfan]

That's not how I see the issue.

Think of it more like this.

Someone starts a new professional football league, the YFL (logically comes after XFL).

Eight of the teams are paying players on average $300,000 each per season. They are in two divisions with most of the play intra-division.

Four of the teams pay an average of $25,000 each per season. They are all in one division.

Four of the teams pay $3000 per season ($250 per game). They are in another division.

Now no one is going to confuse this league with the NFL.

But in the eight well paying markets the perception of what the YFL is, will be fairly decent. At that salary level they will have a large number of guys who have had NFL contracts.

In the next four markets, the YFL perception won't be quite so high. There will be fewer guys who lasted any time in an NFL camp.

In the other four markets, anyone who had an NFL training camp contract is a local guy who has a real job in the area. Chances are though you will see fewer players who are capable of playing high level ball.

Now your job is to market the YFL. Is it high level football just a bit behind the NFL? Is it a league of local semi-pro teams? Is it something in between? The answer depends on the market. How do you convince a potential viewer in a low level market to watch a game between the two premier high level teams when their perception (based on the local team) is that it is just a bit above rec league football, when in fact it is fairly high level pro football?

That's the rub. You can't give a simple answer to the question "What is I-AA football?" because depending on where you are the answer varies wildly.

At least in I-A you know that Arkansas State and Michigan are both awarding at or close to 85 football grants. They are sponsoring at least 16 sports and they are playing a certain number of games against other schools in I-A and doing that regardless of whether the crowds are 105,000 or 15,000 and whether the athletic budget is $10 million or $50 million.

[bluehenbillk]

You guys have missed the point, look at the first 2 posts in this thread & the "conspiracy" to keep mid-majors out of the 1-AA Tournament. Followers of the teams in the power 1-AA conferences are not upset if mid-major teams get beat by D-II or D-III teams because we don't care. Plus, I'd consider it an upset anyway if a mid-major beat a decent D-II or D-III team.

There is no conspiracy, if mid-majors want to be in 1-AA because it's necessary to field a D-I hoops team so be it. But don't go masquerading & tell me that they belong in a 16- or 24-team 1-AA playoff field, that's where I draw the line.

[Bub]

You guys have missed the point, look at the first 2 posts in this thread & the "conspiracy" to keep mid-majors out of the 1-AA Tournament. Followers of the teams in the power 1-AA conferences are not upset if mid-major teams get beat by D-II or D-III teams because we don't care. Plus, I'd consider it an upset anyway if a mid-major beat a decent D-II or D-III team.

There is no conspiracy, if mid-majors want to be in 1-AA because it's necessary to field a D-I hoops team so be it. But don't go masquerading & tell me that they belong in a 16- or 24-team 1-AA playoff field, that's where I draw the line.


I hate to :deadhorse, but you do realize there are weak teams in every division. One does not judge the level by the weakest team, yet many of you do, only when it comes to I-AA non schollies. Do you honestly think D-III and D-II teams are better than most if not all the I-AA non schollies? Sure there are some weak I-AA non schollies that will get beat by D-II and D-III a lot. Here in the midwest, I have seen the kids who have chosen I-AA non scholly, over D-II offers & D-III. Many of the players coming in this year to Drake, for example, are all-state players. I can not claim to speak to what you perceive out east, but from my own personal experience, Drake's facilities, staff and program are far and above any of the D-II or D-III's we saw. Kids want to come here over D-III and D-II's and actually turn down money to do so. We even had some kids turn down PL offers. There are other I-AA non schollies like Drake that attract good students who are good athletes and these schools have good programs. I'm sorry that some of you can't see that.

As to the playoffs, what do you care if they increase the field to 24 and the winner of these conferences get an auto bid? Since they're no good they'll lose first round any way ,right? You'll get another home game. More money for you. You think it will hurt the fan base or television audience? Sorry to burst your bubble, but the fan base is and always will be fairly small. If big schools like Delaware want all that I-A is, and appears to me that many of you do, then go I-A, but don't blame the non schollies for I-AA not being I-A.

[PapaBear]

It's great if a Delaware beats an Mississippi State

They have to play 'em, first.

It was Maine that beat MSU.

Don't make me start fact-checking your posts! ;)

[GannonFan]

I hate to :deadhorse, but you do realize there are weak teams in every division. One does not judge the level by the weakest team, yet many of you do, only when it comes to I-AA non schollies. Do you honestly think D-III and D-II teams are better than most if not all the I-AA non schollies? Sure there are some weak I-AA non schollies that will get beat by D-II and D-III a lot. Here in the midwest, I have seen the kids who have chosen I-AA non scholly, over D-II offers & D-III. Many of the players coming in this year to Drake, for example, are all-state players. I can not claim to speak to what you perceive out east, but from my own personal experience, Drake's facilities, staff and program are far and above any of the D-II or D-III's we saw. Kids want to come here over D-III and D-II's and actually turn down money to do so. We even had some kids turn down PL offers. There are other I-AA non schollies like Drake that attract good students who are good athletes and these schools have good programs. I'm sorry that some of you can't see that.

As to the playoffs, what do you care if they increase the field to 24 and the winner of these conferences get an auto bid? Since they're no good they'll lose first round any way ,right? You'll get another home game. More money for you. You think it will hurt the fan base or television audience? Sorry to burst your bubble, but the fan base is and always will be fairly small. If big schools like Delaware want all that I-A is, and appears to me that many of you do, then go I-A, but don't blame the non schollies for I-AA not being I-A.

I honestly think a lot of DII and fewer DIII teams are better than many if not all the non-schollies playing DIAA right now. I've argued many times before that the top 10-20 in DII could play very competively against the top 25 in IAA, and I certainly don't think a good case could be made that the mid-majors are all that close to the top 25 in IAA. And when it comes down to the playoffs, if you extend the playoffs enough certainly letting a mid-major in is fine - however, under a current 16 team set-up, a mid-major would have to play a much different schedule than they do now, and win those tough games, to have a realistic shot at making the playoffs. As others have said, look at the other thread where this is discussed and see the difficulty in finding even one mid-major over the years that a case could be made that they should've been in the playoffs.

IMO, the mid majors should take a lesson from the SWAC and Ivy - they've made decisions to do things different from the rest of IAA (SWAC and their Classics and media contracts and the Ivy and their air of superiority) and they aren't griping about not being in the playoffs. If mid-majors don't want to fund teams like the rest of IAA and don't want to play a schedule strength close to what other IAA's play, they shouldn't be griping about not being in the playoffs either. Frankly, they don't seem to be - it just appears to be the gripes of a few conspiracy nuts on these boards that are complaining.

[GOTIME]

You cannot fairly compare say New Hampshire's program to Monmouth's or Iona's.
Monmouth and Iona are on the other end of the spectrum.

.
You have shown no knowledge of mid-majors by comparing Monmouth to Iona. While Monmouth has played Iona the last 2 years and beaten them 30-7, and 40-14. Monmouth has won 20 games in the last 2 years, and is argueably the best mid-major team. Dont just throw out names when you dont know what you are talking about.

[bluehenbillk]

Yea arkstfan, get your head in the ballgame. Monmouth's only loss last year was a 27-0 whitewashing to mighty 3-7 Stony Brook. ooooohhh Stony Brook, not to be confused with Notre Dame. Don't throw Iona in the same sentence as Central Connecticut State & LaSalle!!!

Stony Brook :)

[eaglesrthe1]

As to the playoffs, what do you care if they increase the field to 24 and the winner of these conferences get an auto bid?

If the field was increased to 24, there would still be other teams that should get at large bids with 8-3 or 7-4 records. I haven't seen a mid major yet that I would put in the top 24. Instead of having auto bids for the mid-majors, you would have plenty of 3rd or 4th place teams from the BSC, Gateway, A-10 or SoCon to fill those slots. You would have slots for teams from the Big South like CCU last year, or 3rd place teams from the SWAC that weren't playing in the SWAC Championship game.

I wouldn't put a mid-major in a playoff field of 32.

[Bub]

I honestly think a lot of DII and fewer DIII teams are better than many if not all the non-schollies playing DIAA right now. I've argued many times before that the top 10-20 in DII could play very competively against the top 25 in IAA..

IMO, the mid majors should take a lesson from the SWAC and Ivy - they've made decisions to do things different from the rest of IAA (SWAC and their Classics and media contracts and the Ivy and their air of superiority) and they aren't griping about not being in the playoffs. If mid-majors don't want to fund teams like the rest of IAA and don't want to play a schedule strength close to what other IAA's play, they shouldn't be griping about not being in the playoffs either. Frankly, they don't seem to be - it just appears to be the gripes of a few conspiracy nuts on these boards that are complaining.


I have a very hard time believing that having a max of 36 equilvilencies spread out over 110 players makes a D-II team better than the best non schollies, and competative with the top 25 fully funded I-AA's. If that's the case the top 25 teams in I-AA are wasting their extra 27 scholarships


I think the I-AA non schollies have chosen to do it a different way from the fully funded I-AA teams. They are not dependant on transfers from I-A. Players must qualify as students first before they can be recruited as a player. I personally could care less whether the I-AA non schollies get an auto invite to your playoff party. My only concern is that many of you aren't happy with that exclusion, that you won't rest until these teams are kicked out of your view of what I-AA should be. As someone said earlier, I-AA is a big tent, I think there is room for all of us.

[GannonFan]

I have a very hard time believing that having a max of 36 equilvilencies spread out over 110 players makes a D-II team better than the best non schollies, and competative with the top 25 fully funded I-AA's. If that's the case the top 25 teams in I-AA are wasting their extra 27 scholarships


I think the I-AA non schollies have chosen to do it a different way from the fully funded I-AA teams. They are not dependant on transfers from I-A. Players must qualify as students first before they can be recruited as a player. I personally could care less whether the I-AA non schollies get an auto invite to your playoff party. My only concern is that many of you aren't happy with that exclusion, that you won't rest until these teams are kicked out of your view of what I-AA should be. As someone said earlier, I-AA is a big tent, I think there is room for all of us.

In one game, not a season, of course the top in DII can compete with the top in DIAA - there are many examples of that (NDSt beating Montana a couple years ago, North Alabama being #1 in DII and losing 17-14 to then #1 in IAA Youngstown St, national semifinalist UD losing to an average West Chester team in '92). When it comes down to it, you can only play 11 guys at a time so the depth from the extra scholarships is nice, but in a one-game scenario depth isn't always going to win the day. Even with that, you haven't seen the mid-majors have any of these wins or close games against the best in IAA - certainly not scheduling the big teams is a good reason why, but losing games to even the weakest of the fully-funded IAA conferences is not a good indicator of strength from the mids.

My only knock on these schools being classified as IAA is when the malcontents of the mid major world start to moan about being IAA in name but not getting a seat at the "playoff party" as you call it. I'm fine with them being IAA as long as inclusion in the playoffs is still based on merit and not just collecting enough similar, non-aspiring teams together to start to cry to the NCAA about the right to an autobid. When proponents of these schools start to cry for this that's when I take exception to calling them "equals".

[Bub]

Gannonfan

Help me out here. In D-II, there is no requirement that if a "scholarship" is given it must be a full-ride, hence most D-II's give partial scholarships so they can spread those 36 equivilencies around farther. Same with NAIA and their 24 equivilencies. I know I-A football can only give full scholarships if they extend athletic aid. What about the I-AA fullyfunded teams, can they spread the 63 around or do they have to give 63 full rides?

It changes the complextion of the team you put on the field, particularly those 11 that are playing, if you have 36 full rides and 74 walk ons, vs 110 partials.

[GannonFan]

Gannonfan

Help me out here. In D-II, there is no requirement that if a "scholarship" is given it must be a full-ride, hence most D-II's give partial scholarships so they can spread those 36 equivilencies around farther. Same with NAIA and their 24 equivilencies. I know I-A football can only give full scholarships if they extend athletic aid. What about the I-AA fullyfunded teams, can they spread the 63 around or do they have to give 63 full rides?

It changes the complextion of the team you put on the field, particularly those 11 that are playing, if you have 36 full rides and 74 walk ons, vs 110 partials.

I'm pretty certain in IAA you can have guys on partial scholarship (i.e. one scholarship can be spread over 2 guys).

[Bub]

I'm pretty certain in IAA you can have guys on partial scholarship (i.e. one scholarship can be spread over 2 guys).


Thanks, that makes sense. I know at D-II and NAIA the schools can also impose their own institutional limitations, as to the amount of money they give. For example some limit aid to the amount of in state tuition and will not not include room and board, even if academic money is included in the package. In other words the most you can get from the school it self from whatever source, is the amount of in-state tuition. If its a public school, in state tuition may only be $2,000-$4,000 and thats the most you can get. Other schools may handle it differently.

[GOTIME]

Yea arkstfan, get your head in the ballgame. Monmouth's only loss last year was a 27-0 whitewashing to mighty 3-7 Stony Brook. ooooohhh Stony Brook, not to be confused with Notre Dame. Don't throw Iona in the same sentence as Central Connecticut State & LaSalle!!!

Stony Brook :)
Whatever bud, this entire thread basically began because i called you a dick, and it still rings true. Teams can play poor games, just ask Delaware about their squeeker over Towson at home this year(yeah that same powerful Towson team that lost to Monmouth just a few years back and got smacked by everyone else in the A-10 this year) I am just saying don't lump all mid-majors together, thats all, and teams can play a bad game, it doesnt mean the entire season can be discredited. No teams on this entire board should be confused with Notre Dame by the way, eventhough some of you Delaware guys seem to think that.

Also, I totally agree with GannonFan that mid-major teams should be allowed into the playoff field based on merit, not on auto-bids.

[eaglesrthe1]

Also, I totally agree with GannonFan that mid-major teams should be allowed into the playoff field based on merit, not on auto-bids.

On merit, they already are allowed. On merit, none have been included.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

On merit, they already are allowed. On merit, none have been included.

Something interesting to note here. If the playoffs expand to 24 teams, the chance that a mid-major qualifies for the playoffs goes up dramatically as long as the "three division I losses" rule still holds...

Let's make a mock 2004 24-team field with 12 autobids:

AUTOMATIC QUALIFIERS (8)
Southern Illinois - Gateway Football Conference
Furman - Southern Conference
William & Mary - Atlantic 10 Conference
Montana - Big Sky Conference
Hampton - Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference
Jacksonville State - Ohio Valley Conference
Lafayette - Patriot League
Northwestern State - Southland Conference

AT-LARGE QUALIFERS (8)
Georgia Southern - Southern Conference
Eastern Washington - Big Sky Conference
Western Kentucky - Gateway Football Conference
James Madison - Atlantic 10 Conference
New Hampshire - Atlantic 10 Conference
Sam Houston State - Southland Conference
Lehigh - Patriot League
Delaware - Atlantic 10 Conference

Let's say we gave the next 8 eligible teams bids that don't have 3 losses and have more than 10 games. We'll go strictly on GPI, and assume no new autobids:

Cal Poly (9-2), Great West
NDSU (8-3), Great West
Wofford (8-3), SoCon
South Carolina St. (9-2), MEAC
Coastal Carolina (10-1), Big South
Monmouth (10-1), NEC
Central Connecticut State (8-2), NEC (only 10 games, but they had 8 D-I wins)

Then you would consider Villanova for the final spot with 4 or more losses. I am not sure if NDSU was playoff-eligible - I don't think they were, which per the GPI would put (IMO) UMass or UNI in the mix.

Drake (10-2, PFL) does not qualify since they played 3 non-D-I schools.
Alabama St. (10-2, SWAC) does not play in the postseason.
Dayton (7-3, PFL) does not qualify since they didn't have 8 D-I wins.
Ark-PB (6-3, SWAC) does not qualify since they didn't have 8 D-I wins.
Duquesne (7-3, MAAC) does not qualify since they didn't have 8 D-I wins.

Interesting, isn't it? If all the other rules stay the same (i.e. no autobids), the NEC gets 2 teams and (if eligible) the Great West gets 2 teams. And you're well into mid-major territory when you're looking for eligible teams. Look how close Duquesne was making it as an at-large - they had 7 D-I wins. Dayton may have been close too.

The point is: if you expand the playoff field and leave everything else equal, you're going to see more mid-majors make the playoffs, not more A-10 and Big Sky teams generally. The threshold for "merit" on the mid-majors is not as far away as you think. (You'll also see more access for the non-autobid conferences like the Big South, Great West, and (in a different year) maybe the SWAC.)

Of course, this is a great example as to why the playoffs shouldn't expand. I mean, CCSU?

[eaglesrthe1]

I think that the emphasis is changing from 3 div I losses to 7 div I wins. I don't belive that it is a "rule" just a guideline. There have already been instances of non auto-bid teams with 7-4 records making the playoffs. The Idaho Vandals made the playoff field in 95 as an at large with a 6-4 record, and one of their wins was over a div II school.

Mid-majors do not belong in a 24 team field, they just wouldn't measure up.

[GannonFan]

Yeah, I know the conspiracy theorists probably saw that "guideline" change from 3 losses to 7 wins as further indication of the IAA elites doing everything they can to thwart the mids. On merit, no mids yet have deserved a spot - could it happen in the future? Absolutely. What will it take? Success on the field against credible competition. Step up in schedule, win those games, and you're in - it's not really complicated.

[downbythebeach]

[QUOTE=GOTIME]No teams on this entire board should be confused with Notre Dame by the way, eventhough some of you Delaware guys seem to think that.
QUOTE]


LOL.....very true, you're not the only one that noticed.

[bluehenbillk]

Eaglesrthe1, good call. Mid-majors are allowed in the field now on merit. The fact is that their strength (or lack thereof) schedule will not allow even a 11-0 team to qualify.

Gotime, I'm glad I got under your skin, when you know what you're talking about come back on this board.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's say now that you include 7 D-I win teams, no new autobids. Again, going strictly on GPI.

We'll go strictly on GPI, and assume no new autobids:

Cal Poly (9-2), Great West
NDSU (8-3), Great West
Northern Iowa (7-4), Gateway
Portland St. (7-4), Big Sky
Wofford (8-3), SoCon
Bucknell (7-4), Patriot
Colgate (7-4), Patriot
South Carolina St. (9-2), MEAC

Coastal Carolina (10-1, Big South) now only gets in if NDSU is ineligible (which I think they were). Next up are Murray State (7-4, OVC, who would be DQed if they played 1 non-D-I opponent), SeLa (7-4, Indep, but I think they were ineligible). Then comes Monmouth (10-1, NEC), who DID play all-D-I competition.

Again, with an expanded playoffs, it's not at all out the the realm of possibility that a mid-major makes it. Now, the big winners are the Patriot and Great West, and the big losers are the Big South and NEC.

[bluehenbillk]

Kinda my point exactly. However, I always hate the GPI, if you're going to give it any credence you're saying that the BCS is a good thing too.

[GOTIME]

I would say my knowledge of overall I-AA compared to Old Johny Bluehenbilk is superior. Was I wrong on my last posting about Towson, who by your discription is basically a glorified D-III school because they have lost to mid-majors (eventhough they were Patriot League at the time, that team is no better now). Let me know when Im allowed to post again buddy, please.

[bluehenbillk]

Yes Johnny, you are wrong. Towson was a non-scholarship Patriot League team in the 90's & early 00's. Actually, they were independent before joining the Patriot League & actually were a D-II program until the 80's when they moved to 1-AA.

They won zero games last year in the first foray into the max full scholarship world of the A-10. I'd assume a similar position for them until they can compete apples to apples with the rest of the league.

[GOTIME]

I dont care about the 80's guy, they were in the Patriot League in up to 2002 I believe and last time I checked the Patriot League gives money to student athletes, just not in the typical scholarship form, but in equivalences so dont claim they were truly non-scholarship before the A-10 move, they just gave money in diff. ways. I wouldnt say gap between the A-10 and Patriot League is as wide anymore after the 2004 playoffs and the Fight Lafayette gave UDEL at home, so the apples to apples comment isnt really so true.

[bluehenbillk]

Ask a Towson fan the difference of playing every week, and TU didn't give the aid packagaes that you see at Lehigh & Colgate which I agree are the equivalent of a full-scholarship program.

I'm not turning this into a rant against the Patriot, I respect them for what they are.

We can agree on one point, if a mid-major ever gets into the 1-AA playoffs, which is highly unlikely, even if they would expand the tournament (unless to a way-too high number), it should be on merit. If they deserve it on merit fine, but I don't see that landscape ever changing.

Face it, if a 9-2 CalPoly team can't get in, an 11-0 mid-major team that beats other mid-majors by an average of 50 points won't get a sniff on selection weekend.

[Dane96]

I think the argument is much simpler than everyone is making it out to be. Do I think ALL mid-major conferences should qualify for one auto-bid in an extended field? Absolutely not. I truly believe that DIAA should have some sort of minimum aid requirement. Aid directely correlates to success of teams. NO AID=NO CHANCE FOR A LEAGUE TO BE COMPETITIVE FROM TOP TO BOTTOM. Sure, though Duquense, Dayton, San Diego, to name a few teams from NON-AID conferences may very good for non-aid squads, the fact is, most other teams in those conferences cannot compete.

Now, on the flip-side you have a conference like the NEC. Sure, the conference is limited to need-based aid, however with most of the schools either private or recruiting outside of their "state-tuition" levels (ie. Albany bringing in kids from Cali, Florida, etc), plenty of kids qualify for AID. Most teams in the NEC are at, or working hard at nearing, the full level of conference mandated aid limits, 30 scholarship athletes. Most of these schools actually have a bit more as the counters can be spread over different players. Overall, this makes a league like the NEC a bit stronger than the other two mid-major leagues, which is not a knock on the other leagues.

So, the question begs, outside of tradition and playoff experience, what is the difference between giving a Patriot League auto-bid and an NEC auto-bid? NONE. Technically niether league is a scholarship league and the teams in the NEC are nearing the level of aid of their PL brothers. If the NEC teams are at 30 full-equivlancies and PL teams generally (with a few obvious exceptions) are around the 45 range (according to reports I have read on this board) then there should be no difference. The argument against this comparison is simple: THE PL teams are stronger and recruit better athletes. VERY TRUE, however the argument against this reasoning is even simpler: AUTO BIDS ARE NOT GIVEN OUT BY STRENGTH OF CONFERENCE. In fact, they are given out to SCHOLARSHIP LEAGUES.

Sure, we know how the current system is actually set up and conference strength definately was tied into to doling out the auto-bids, however if it was ever admitted as the reasoning for shutting out the Mid-Majors and other leagues the NCAA would be f'd as all those schools would win a court case instantly for anti-trust violations (I wrote a paper on this exact argument while in law school).

IMHO, the NCAA, to solve the arugment, should mandate all leagues at the I-AA level must give out a minimum number of scholarships, even if it is 20. Expand the field, allow in all leagues under an autobid policy and end this controversy. Further, teams that bitch they cannot meet this requirment should not hide behind the "DAYTON RULE." IF you cant afford 20 scholarships, you should'nt be fielding a football team. THE NCAA is a private institution and can set minimimum standards. If your University can't meet them, so be it.

The IAA set-up should change to strengthen the product from a marketing standpoint. You wouldnt have these Mid-Major distinctions which some argue bring down the "Division" when the bigger boys play them. Instead, you would have numerous postives, among them: A) The possibility, though remote, that a 20-30 scholly league team with an autobid could upset a big boy in the first round, thus increasing the level of fan support at schools in those leagues, and B) More schools working harder to build up the level of facilities, academics, and athletes at the lower level or "bottom feeder" schools at the IAA level. THIS IS THE NCAA MARCH MADNESS ARGUMENT!

Just a thought fellas....

[Dane96]

One last thing: Bill, not to be a homer, but you would be hard pressed to argue an 11-0 Albany squad should be less attractive to the at-large committee. It would mean UA beat MAINE, UMASS, HOFSTRA (home), and FORDHAM on the road.

[blukeys]

One last thing: Bill, not to be a homer, but you would be hard pressed to argue an 11-0 Albany squad should be less attractive to the at-large committee. It would mean UA beat MAINE, UMASS, HOFSTRA (home), and FORDHAM on the road.

I think it is fair to say that Albany is moving away from the Mid-major classification. It is my understanding that The Danes are to have 30+ equivalencies this year.

[Dane96]

That would be true, however it is because players are receiving aid from other sports. UA cannot go over 30 counters until the 2007 season, the year we are out of our NEC contract.

According to reports from a football reunion/golf outing, 3 million dollars in athletic funding has already been earmarked for full-scholarship football starting three years from this season (2007). The stadium funding is puttering along, however the dept swears up and down it will be finished on plan...2010.

I do know we got a bunch of players this year we had no business of getting, even with a full counter.

[bluehenbillk]

I'll disagree & agree on one point each of Dane's. To equate the Patriot & the NEC is a joke & undeserving of further retort. However, I'll agree that if Albany went 11-0 with that schedule they'd be deserving, however, show me another mid-major team with that kind of schedule.

[Dane96]

Jeesh, read what I wrote again. I said flat out that the PL was a better league, however SOL is not what the autobids are based on, publically that is. IT IS BASED ON LEVEL OF FUNDING!!!! I said the PL was stronger than the NEC, however there is NO difference in the two being given an autobid based on the fact that the NEC gives out rides and so does the PL, which is the basis of inclusion to autobids.

Trust me on this, and I have spoke to some of the top legal minds in sports: if the NEC wanted to pursue it (unlikely because they do not want to piss off the IAA Presidents) they could sue and win a lawsuit for inclusion. It is a legal no-brainer.

Please re-read what I wrote.

[bluehenbillk]

If they sued the NCAA presidents would just call K.C. Keeler & tell him not to take out the starters next September no matter how ugly the score gets. :)

[Dane96]

LOL...exactly!

[rokamortis]

That would be true, however it is because players are receiving aid from other sports. UA cannot go over 30 counters until the 2007 season, the year we are out of our NEC contract.

This may have been covered before - but what is in Albany's future after 2007? Are they going independant? Trying to join a different conference?

[Dane96]

Too early to say. Who knows what the landscape will look like. We are definately going to scholarship football and that is about it.

[rokamortis]

Good for you guys.

I wonder if the A-10 schools will break away from the CAA ... will be interesting.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Now, on the flip-side you have a conference like the NEC. Sure, the conference is limited to need-based aid, however with most of the schools either private or recruiting outside of their "state-tuition" levels (ie. Albany bringing in kids from Cali, Florida, etc), plenty of kids qualify for AID. Most teams in the NEC are at, or working hard at nearing, the full level of conference mandated aid limits, 30 scholarship athletes... Overall, this makes a league like the NEC a bit stronger than the other two mid-major leagues, which is not a knock on the other leagues.

So, the question begs, outside of tradition and playoff experience, what is the difference between giving a Patriot League auto-bid and an NEC auto-bid? NONE. Technically niether league is a scholarship league and the teams in the NEC are nearing the level of aid of their PL brothers...

...

IMHO, the NCAA, to solve the arugment, should mandate all leagues at the I-AA level must give out a minimum number of scholarships, even if it is 20. Expand the field, allow in all leagues under an autobid policy and end this controversy. Further, teams that bitch they cannot meet this requirment should not hide behind the "DAYTON RULE." IF you cant afford 20 scholarships, you should'nt be fielding a football team. THE NCAA is a private institution and can set minimimum standards. If your University can't meet them, so be it.

Am I the only person who sees the irony of an Albany fan lauding a plan that 5 years ago would have resulted in his program getting booted from I-AA?

Dane96, you bring some valid points to the table, but equating the Patriot and NEC is not one of them. Yes, the PL has grown largely organically to go from essenitally a non-scholarship league to one where there are equivalencies. But Lehigh, Colgate, and Fordham over and over proved that they could run with - and beat - A-10 teams and some of the best teams in I-AA. That's something that NEC teams have not proven that they can do yet. The NEC may want to grow into what the Patriot is today, but it will take more than wins over Georgetown to do that.

Having said that, of the "mid-major" leagues, the NEC is clearly better than the Pioneer or MAAC IMO. And the difference seems to be - you guessed it - more equivalencies (in the upper-tier of the NEC, anyway). I think the NEC is different and it's relevant to this discussion. Giving an autobid to the Pioneer or MAAC is one thing - giving a playoff bid to the best NEC team is different. It's important to keep sight of that.

Key to any NEC autobid chances hinge on a few things. First, where is the NEC going? The PL route, meaning more schollies across the board? Or keep the status quo of low-scholly and mid-major programs? Adding schollies may cause teams like (say) Sacred Heart and Wagner to jump the conference, which keeping the status quo would make Albany and Stony Brook upset - maybe enough to start a new northern league.

Second, the playoffs would have to expand to 24 teams. The noise has been mounting for this since there are more conferences who (with some justification) want autobids, but it's awful hard to imagine cutting the regular-season to 10 games (which, IMO, is what would need to happen). It's probably not the NEC that will drive this change, though - it's much more likely to come from a Big South/Great West that gets 6 teams. Of course, this ALSO assumes that these 2 conferences can keep things together and not keep losing schools to the SoCon/Big Sky - no guarantee.

The NCAA has proposed minimum standards to stay in I-A - look where that ended up. The NCAA may be able to set minimum standards, but enforcement has been another matter. It doesn't make sense that they would put the hammer down on I-AA but not lift a finger with I-A.

As I've said before, I have zero problems with Dayton (or any mid-major) staying in I-AA. So they're up here because of some rule - so what? They don't cheapen I-AA (is the casual fan even aware that Dayton fields a I-AA team?). The playoffs have always been elective. Why is it always assumed now that participation in the I-AA playoffs is what makes a team I-AA?

(/yomama)

[colgate13]

Some late two cents here:

It's great to see the NEC move towards 30 scholarships, but that's still not the level of the PL in terms of equivalences. It's a little more than half. It terms of equivalencies, I am under theimpression that the PL is above 50 per school (with I believe the exception of G'Town). There's no way that Colgate is sitting at 55+ equivalencies and the rest of the league is not.

[bluehenbillk]

This is a historic day....Patriot League fans finally coming out from behind the non-scholarship argument & admitting that they use equivalents!!! Something that we've all known for years.

[Dane96]

I think Colgate13 and Lehigh fan both add excellent points. C13, I was only basing my numbers of equivlincies (sp? I am tired) on numbers I have read hear and a few pm's between you and I. I am sure your numbers are probably closer to the truth.

Lehigh fan...just to clarify, I stated the PL teams talent wise are superior to those in the NEC...not once did I intimate anything to the contrary. The talent gap is closing however, somewhat similar to the PL's closing in on those schools who give out the full 63 (ie. we have 35 or so guys on scholly who are good players to your 50-55l; PL's are in the range of 45-55 solid guys compared to the 63+ (two sport athletes on rides in other sports is where that + is).

I agree, this expansion is definately not going to come from the NEC prodding, more likely from the conferences you mention.

As for irony of an Albany fan lauding a decision that would have axed us....not at all irony; UA would have immediately given out some aid if push came to shove. The administration has always been committed to the program. In fact, the second year we were in the league was the first year of the counters, so UA KNEW they were going to have to buck up some cash. We are the anomaly to the Dayton rule, as is Stony Brook.

I have heard rumors, however, that UA is looking to align itself with a "defunct league." This came from a football reunion (golf outing). If that is the case, you would have to think UA, SBU, Monmouth,and possibly CCSU are looking to align with ZooMass, URI, UMaine, and Richmond. Robert Morris (new stadium expandable to 12k seats) and Dayton may also be players. The suggested league would be capped at 50 scholarships.

So many things out there, so many ideas, however what is clear....if you give aid out in any form (possibly a mandated NCAA minimum), the argument YOU SHOULD BE LEFT OUT OF A PLAYOFF BASED ON TALENT IS BULL! If that were the case, Bucknell would not have been able to upset Kansas, UVM over Syracuse, Valpo over I forget, Gonzaga over numerous teams before they became a known quantity, etc). That is what college is about, more so at I-AA than any other level of football. WE DO IT RIGHT...let's not half arse it and leave out leagues who put forth a decent effort with funding just because they are not at the same level financially as the top teams. Again, if that were the case, Colgate would never have been allowed to go on its fantastic run two years ago.

[colgate13]

So many things out there, so many ideas, however what is clear....if you give aid out in any form (possibly a mandated NCAA minimum), the argument YOU SHOULD BE LEFT OUT OF A PLAYOFF BASED ON TALENT IS BULL!

Well, yes and no here. Should a league that is meeting the requirement of an autobid be left out because they haven't won a lot OOC? No.

Should/could a team be left out of a playoff because they're no good, yes! ;)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As for irony of an Albany fan lauding a decision that would have axed us....not at all irony; UA would have immediately given out some aid if push came to shove. The administration has always been committed to the program. In fact, the second year we were in the league was the first year of the counters, so UA KNEW they were going to have to buck up some cash. We are the anomaly to the Dayton rule, as is Stony Brook.

I have heard rumors, however, that UA is looking to align itself with a "defunct league." This came from a football reunion (golf outing). If that is the case, you would have to think UA, SBU, Monmouth,and possibly CCSU are looking to align with ZooMass, URI, UMaine, and Richmond. Robert Morris (new stadium expandable to 12k seats) and Dayton may also be players. The suggested league would be capped at 50 scholarships.

"Defunct League" would probably be the "Yankee Conference", which was swallowed up by the A-10 (in the 80's, I think?). URI, UMaine, UMass, and UNH are part of this group.

America East has never sponsored football, but UNH, UMaine, Albany, Stony Brook are current members in all other sports, and former Yankee Conference members Vermont and Boston U. are in the AE. Theoretically they could sponsor a new Yankee Conference, but it doesn't seem likely.

Richmond was in the SoCon until 1976, and only rejoined the Yankee Conference when they became the A-10 (I believe). It is possible they would join a new Yankee Conference, but it would be tough with the other "southern" school would be... Stony Brook, in Long Island. I'd think they'd join the Patriot over aligning with a new Yankee conference.

Founding NEC memers CCSU, Monmouth and RMU would have to make a break with the NEC to join a new Yankee conf. How likely is that? All of their facilities would need upgrading IMO. Could/Would this be done within the existing framework of the NEC?

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. Personally I don't think UMass, UMaine, UNH and even URI will move to a new conference without a playoff autobid... which would necessitate expanding the playoffs.

[henfan]

I wonder if the A-10 schools will break away from the CAA...

The question is less what the A-10 schools (URI, UMass and UR) will do and more what the America East schools (UNH, UMaine) will do. Frankly, with Albany and SBU in tow, the AEC schools have far greater control over their FB destinies as a group than do the A-10ers. On the negative side, the AEC has no apparent interest in forming a football league. They've had ample opportunity to do it before and, in the process, make the league stronger. Unfortunately, the conference let Vermont, Hartford and Boston U dictate its direction.

With the potential for Georgia St., Old Dominion and George Mason having full scholarship programs early in the next decade, it's hard to imagine that there won't be some amicable parting of ways between the CAA and at least a few of its FB affiliates down the line. We'll see.

[MU Alum]

As someone who played at Monmouth, maybe I can put my two cents in on the entire situation. I loved playing for Monmouth University over my recent career and in my opinion the program just keeps improving as does the conference. I've played Towson, Morgan State, Lafayette, Georgetown, as well as whoopin up on MAAC schools (exception of one 12-10 loss to Duquesne, but we missed a kick to win it :) ). I always respected the way Albany scheduled out of conference, and am glad to see most of our conference is doin the same, or atleast scheduling some Patriot and A-10's. I dont feel as though I, or any of my teamates, or the program as a whole is a D-III program. People just dont walk off the streets and get suited up, we recruit well, we lift year round, have winter running, spring ball, 2 full time strength coaches and give money. I had a pretty solid High School football career, and was named to the All-State team in NJ (pretty respectable state) along with many of my teamates. I was recruited by many of these schools on this board and chose MU for reasons such as money, location, and just the university itself.

As far as the playoffs are concerned, do I think that we deserved an at-large bid the last two years?..NO, our strength of schedule was not good enough and I understand there are teams from stronger conf. that are deserving. I do believe that almost all posters on this board though underestimate the talent of teams we have put on the field in the last 4 years or automatically discredit us do to our "mid-major" status. I hope in the future that our conference or just MU does earn a chance at the playoffs, but understand the thoughts against it by people on this board. I played with and against some great I-AA talents and have nothing but respect for anyone who plays at this level.

[DUPFLFan]

Looks like Drake is beginning to cut down on non D-1AA programs on their schedule so they can improve their strength of schedule.
Only Waldorf and Wisc-Platteville are on the schedule.
Northern Iowa and Illinois State are their first two games.

[colgate13]

As someone who played at Monmouth...

WELCOME, WELCOME, WELCOME!

Is this a first - a Monmouth poster? AGS just keeps on getting better and better!

Don't be a stranger! :)

[blukeys]

This is a historic day....Patriot League fans finally coming out from behind the non-scholarship argument & admitting that they use equivalents!!! Something that we've all known for years.

To be fair BHBK, there are some on this board that have been up front about this for some time (13 comes to mind). Now getting the average sports reporter from Utica N.Y. (or Bethlehem PA.) to admit this or even understand how the equilavency issue works :eek: :eek: ????? Now that would be a historic day!! :)
Personally, I expect my grandchildren will collect Social Security before this happens. :D

[bluehenbillk]

I welcome a Monmouth poster & thought that was one of the better said posts on this board. I agree that their SOS needs to improve and the SOS of any mid-major needs to be up there for them to be considered for a playoff berth.

[laparka316]

Sure, though Duquense, Dayton, San Diego, to name a few teams from NON-AID conferences may very good for non-aid squads, the fact is, most other teams in those conferences cannot compete.


You didn't mention Drake, and they happened to beat your Albany team in 2002. Pretty good for a non-aid squad... eh???

[GannonFan]

Damn, mid-major smack talking!

[blukeys]

Damn, mid-major smack talking!

Yes, this is the Discussion Board and we only want reasoned opinions here. ;) ;) Take that talk to the Smack board. :spank: :D :) ;) ;) ;)

[eaglesrthe1]

Smack talk on the discussion board? Ban the heathens!

[UAalum72]

Yeah, Drake fans have tried to get an awful lot of mileage out of a 3-year-old, double-overtime home win. I'm not holding my breath for a return game.

[Bub]

Yeah, Drake fans have tried to get an awful lot of mileage out of a 3-year-old, double-overtime home win. I'm not holding my breath for a return game.


A win, as they say, is a win.

;)

[Dane96]

Actually, it was a ridiculous call that even the Drake coaches admitted should not have been called, which led to this win.

How many games versus top teams does Drake play? Albany? Hmmmmmm....yep...Drake is a program making strides.

You need to stop playing NAIA schools before you talk smack.

[laparka316]

We play Northern Iowa and Illinois State in the first 2 weeks this year, so we're scheduling tougher teams...

Good luck this year Great Danes!

[Dane96]

Good luck to you as well.

[DetroitFlyer]

Here we go. 1AA Mid-Major is playing 29 games in 2005 against 1AA. I will track this and report back to see how our Mid-Majors fare against 1AA. Should be interesting.... Anyone care to make some predictions?

The top 1AA Mid-Majors are certainly competitive with the middle to lower 1AA teams. Many scholarship level athletes end up at Mid-Major schools for a variety of reasons. All three Mid-Major conferences have sent folks to the NFL recently. As the board says, "AnyGivenSaturday".... We'll know more at the end of the season.



Date Game
9/1/2005 Drake @ Northern Iowa
9/1/2005 Jacksonville @ Southeastern Louisiana
9/3/2005 Davidson @ VMI
9/3/2005 Lafayette @ Marist
9/3/2005 Sacred Heart @ Holy Cross
9/3/2005 CCSU @ Colgate
9/3/2005 Monmouth @ Lehigh
9/10/2005 Drake @ Illinois State
9/10/2005 Valparaiso @ South Dakota State
9/10/2005 Fordham @ Duquesne
9/10/2005 Rhode Island @ CCSU
9/10/2005 Bucknell @ Stony Brook
9/10/2005 Hofstra @ Albany
9/17/2005 Yale @ San Diego
9/17/2005 Jacksonville @ Charleston Southern
9/17/2005 Duquesne @ Penn
9/17/2005 Albany @ Umass
9/17/2005 Stony Brook @ Hofstra
9/24/2005 San Diego @ Princeton
9/24/2005 Duquesne @ Columbia
9/24/2005 Georgetown @ Stony Brook
10/1/2005 Marist @ Bucknell
10/1/2005 Albany @ Maine
10/8/2005 Duquesne @ Georgetown
11/12/2005 Austin Peay @ Murray State
11/12/2005 Davidson @ Georgetown
11/12/2005 Morehead State @ Georgia Southern
11/12/2005 Iona @ New Hampshire
11/19/2005 Albany @ Fordham

[GannonFan]

I would pick...


Date Game
9/1/2005 Drake @ Northern Iowa -- UNI
9/1/2005 Jacksonville @ Southeastern Louisiana --- SE LA
9/3/2005 Davidson @ VMI --- VMI (can't believe I'm picking VMI to win)
9/3/2005 Lafayette @ Marist --- Lafayette
9/3/2005 Sacred Heart @ Holy Cross --- Holy Cross
9/3/2005 CCSU @ Colgate --- Colgate
9/3/2005 Monmouth @ Lehigh --- Lehigh
9/10/2005 Drake @ Illinois State -- Ill St
9/10/2005 Valparaiso @ South Dakota State --- SDSU
9/10/2005 Fordham @ Duquesne --- Fordham
9/10/2005 Rhode Island @ CCSU --- URI, but close
9/10/2005 Bucknell @ Stony Brook --- Stony Brook - upset special
9/10/2005 Hofstra @ Albany --- Hofstra
9/17/2005 Yale @ San Diego --- San Diego (long flight)
9/17/2005 Jacksonville @ Charleston Southern --- Jacksonville
9/17/2005 Duquesne @ Penn --- Penn
9/17/2005 Albany @ Umass --- UMass
9/17/2005 Stony Brook @ Hofstra --- Hofstra
9/24/2005 San Diego @ Princeton --- Princeton
9/24/2005 Duquesne @ Columbia --- Columbia
9/24/2005 Georgetown @ Stony Brook --- Stony Brook
10/1/2005 Marist @ Bucknell --- Bucknell
10/1/2005 Albany @ Maine --- Maine
10/8/2005 Duquesne @ Georgetown --- Duquesne
11/12/2005 Austin Peay @ Murray State --- Murray St
11/12/2005 Davidson @ Georgetown --- Davidson
11/12/2005 Morehead State @ Georgia Southern -- GSU
11/12/2005 Iona @ New Hampshire --- New Hampshire
11/19/2005 Albany @ Fordham --- Albany

I see them going 7-22 over that stretch, with almost half of those wins against the Hoyas (no offense to you Gtown backers). Even more so, probably well more than half of those 22 losses will be massacres (more than 25 points).

[Bub]

It will be interesting to see how this turns out. You have the best of non schollie I-AA~ Drake, Monmouth, San Diego, ALbany and Duquesne, as well as some of the lesser non schollies. These teams are playing some of the better scholarship teams, e.g. Drake v UNI. Of course some are playing lesser scholarship/equivilency teams, as well. As has been said, many are trying to step it up.

To make it more interesting why don't you make a list of all the I-AA scholarship teams playing I-A teams and let us know how they compare, in stepping it up, so to speak. UNI is playing Iowa, for example. Not exactly like playing a bottom tier MAC team.

Some of you treat the non schollies, and not just the lower teams, with such disregard and praise your own teams as being equal to many if not most I-A teams. It will be interesting to compare week to week how the non-schollies do against the schollies vs how the I-AA schollies do against I-A and how many of the schollies are trying to stretch themselves by playing a top level team vs a "bottom feeder".

[blukeys]

Here we go. 1AA Mid-Major is playing 29 games in 2005 against 1AA. I will track this and report back to see how our Mid-Majors fare against 1AA. Should be interesting.... Anyone care to make some predictions?

Date Game
9/1/2005 Drake @ Northern Iowa
9/3/2005 Lafayette @ Marist
9/3/2005 CCSU @ Colgate
9/3/2005 Monmouth @ Lehigh
9/10/2005 Fordham @ Duquesne
9/10/2005 Rhode Island @ CCSU
9/10/2005 Hofstra @ Albany
9/17/2005 Albany @ Umass
9/17/2005 Stony Brook @ Hofstra
10/1/2005 Albany @ Maine
11/12/2005 Morehead State @ Georgia Southern
11/12/2005 Iona @ New Hampshire
11/19/2005 Albany @ Fordham


Ok you mid major guys are unbelieveably cruel You have put me in the position of having to root for GSU, Fordham, Lafayette, Maine, Hofstra(yeah big mouth Gardi's team) URI, UNH, Colgate, Lehigh, AND....... UMASS!


Have you no shame????!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

we would not do the same to you.

This is beyond the pale!

I am contemplating suitable revenge and it won't be pretty!!

[GannonFan]

Some of you treat the non schollies, and not just the lower teams, with such disregard and praise your own teams as being equal to many if not most I-A teams.

Who ever made this claim that the IAA's from big conferences are better than most IA's? Just the BCS conferences alone make up more than half of IA and most of those are better than the IAA's. I sense some angst on your part. Hang in there.

[Bub]

[QUOTE=blukeys]

It is generally acknowledged on this board that the best in I-AA can beat the mid to lower I-A's but not the highest ranked BSC teams.

There's the quote from Blukeys, earlier on this thread. I think my paraphrase is pretty accurate. It certainly captures the spirit of his stated view.

Angst? Nah, just mildly irritated. :cool:

I see Delaware is not playing any I-A schools this season, but did find room for a D-II team. Sure I understand all the Delaware arguments, 1) we make so much at home per game, we don't need a I-A paycheck, 2) the A-10 is so tough we need a break in the OOC schedule. That and .50 will get you a cup of coffee at Casey's. I think Delaware needs to step up to the plate and stretch themselves. UNI is playing Iowa for crying outloud. The Hens need to schedule some I-A teams and quit chewing on the non schollies who are stepping up to the plate and swinging big.

[GannonFan]

[QUOTE=blukeys]

It is generally acknowledged on this board that the best in I-AA can beat the mid to lower I-A's but not the highest ranked BSC teams.

There's the quote from Blukeys, earlier on this thread. I think my paraphrase is pretty accurate. It certainly captures the spirit of his stated view.

Angst? Nah, just mildly irritated. :cool:

I see Delaware is not playing any I-A schools this season, but did find room for a D-II team. Sure I understand all the Delaware arguments, 1) we make so much at home per game, we don't need a I-A paycheck, 2) the A-10 is so tough we need a break in the OOC schedule. That and .50 will get you a cup of coffee at Casey's. I think Delaware needs to step up to the plate and stretch themselves. UNI is playing Iowa for crying outloud. The Hens need to schedule some I-A teams and quit chewing on the non schollies who are stepping up to the plate and swinging big.

Dude, you're all over the place - first you say that fans from the big IAA's say that they can beat most of the IA teams, and then the quote or paraphrase you give from one poster can beat the lower IA's but not the BCS teams - and since the BCS is the majority in IA (or pretty close to it) then I think you're misrepresenting that one person's sentiment. Can the top IAA's beat most of the Sun Belt, MAC, CUSA? Sure, but after that it's slim pickings.

As for UD, what's in it for us to, as you say, "stretch ourselves"? What's to be gained by that? UD schedules IA frequently so it's not as if we don't play IA's - heck, we've also been dropped by IA's who don't want to play us anymore. If UD wanted to play a bunch of IA schools we would pursue that classification. Right now, we're in IAA. Fact is, the playoffs are what matter in IAA and UD's aim every year is that. If that hurts your feelings then sorry. You bring up UNI as an example of a school "stretching" themselves, but then you fail to mention that the rest of their OOC schedule includes a game against non-scholly Drake and a game against a bottom feeder in DII. Where's your commentary for that? And now why the knock on playing non-schollies - a boatload of posts on this board over the past few days are from fans of non-schollies imploring the rest of the IAA world to schedule them so that they can boost their own schedules and be more recognized as truly part of the IAA landscape - you can't have it both ways - you can't argue for these games to be played and then castigate the IAA powers that accede to this desire to play. Like I said, you're all over the place in this argument.

[DetroitFlyer]

As I was thinking about this last night, just the fact that there are 29 games this season between the Mid-Majors and 1AA speaks volumes about the Mid-Majors being a vibrant part of 1AA football. I have not researched the topic, but I would guess that this number gets a bit larger every season. As I mentioned yesterday, the top Mid-Majors are competitive with the middle to lower 1AA's. Dayton barely lost to Yale last year at Dayton. Yale was a middle of the road 1AA team last year. The Mid-Majors do not have nearly the depth of the 1AA teams, but for one or two games a year we can hang in there and probably even win a few here and there. These are important games for the Mid-Major programs as it allows the fans and players to benchmark their program and progress and build interest in maintaining football under difficult circumstances at most of the Mid-Major universities. As a University of Dayton fan, ( the "real "UD" ), I would like my team to have a shot at making the playoffs. I certainly understand the lack of support from the schools that make the committment to fund a full 1AA program, but if we have a 1AA conference and meet the published minimum requirements for an automatic bid, then I think it should happen until the rules are changed. It only makes sense to me that the field be expanded to provide autobids for all of the 1AA conferences that wish to participate. Look at 1A basketball as a model. Every season some team with a poor record from a poor conference gets in to the tournament while much better teams in stronger conferences with better records sit at home. Believe me, UD has been in this position many, many times. Ultimately, although it may not seem fair, I think this builds interest in the game as a whole, provides valuable exposure to schools that would not get it otherwise and helps build support at these schools, ( and conferences ), to improve their programs. The same would hold true for 1AA Mid-Major as well.

[MU Alum]

Have you no shame????!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

we would not do the same to you.

This is beyond the pale!

I am contemplating suitable revenge and it won't be pretty!!

Then jump on the Mid-Major bandwagon, and pull for your favorite NEC team :) . We'd love to have some Delaware supporters.

In regards to scheduling tougher, I understand that Delaware is one of the "Haves" in I-AA football and rightfully so. By playing some of the "Have Nots" it can only help better I-AA all around by strengthing the lesser schools. Not just for the money involved in playing U Del. but also its a recruiting tool, and makes the athletic department stay commited to football. And Delaware gets a home game and a break in their very tough A-10 schedule and is still playing a I-AA opponent, so I just dont see what the main problem is. Monmouth has grown over the last 5 years as has the entire NEC and I hope it continues to grow and these games can only help.

[Bub]

[QUOTE=GannonFan][QUOTE=Bub]

Dude, you're all over the place -

Dude! I haven't been called that in a while, man! ;)

I think the quote and my paraphrase are right on. He said "we can beat the mid to lower I-A, not the highest ranked". He didn't exclude BCS teams from his estimation of whom the top I-AA's could beat and therefore, neither did I. You may not agree with his conclusion, but I think I made a fair respresentation of what he said.

However, be that as it may, you ask what relevance did it have to the argument? basically none. :p I was just being pissy.

I am a non schollie fan and was tired of hearing your no good, we're great from some of the I-AA schollies. My gut response was if you're so good, then step it on up and play with the big boys- I-A! We'll see how good you really are! like I said pissy.

As to UNI, sure they're playing Drake and we're looking forward to the challenge. (check out the avatar, GO BULLDOGS!), as well as a D-II, but they're also playing one of the best I-A's around(GO HAWKS!). I think they've done a good job of giving us a chance to step up(there is talk of this being a home and home series), as well as taking on a challenge themselves. For the next 3 years they're challenging Big XII Iowa State. Bully for them.




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[blukeys]

Then jump on the Mid-Major bandwagon, and pull for your favorite NEC team :) . We'd love to have some Delaware supporters.

In regards to scheduling tougher, I understand that Delaware is one of the "Haves" in I-AA football and rightfully so. By playing some of the "Have Nots" it can only help better I-AA all around by strengthing the lesser schools. Not just for the money involved in playing U Del. but also its a recruiting tool, and makes the athletic department stay commited to football. And Delaware gets a home game and a break in their very tough A-10 schedule and is still playing a I-AA opponent, so I just dont see what the main problem is. Monmouth has grown over the last 5 years as has the entire NEC and I hope it continues to grow and these games can only help.

You guys are on our schedule for '08 and Albany is on board next year. Hope that helps. So We are spreading the wealth around just like the Carnegie and Ford foundation. ;) ;) ;)

Trust me if you guys play Nova your band wagon will be overflowing. :D :D :D

[GannonFan]

As a University of Dayton fan, ( the "real "UD" ),

Nah - University of Delaware - founded 1743 (I think 5th oldest in the US)
University of Dayton - found 1850 - many years later. We get dibs on the UD moniker.

[blukeys]

Nah - University of Delaware - founded 1743 (I think 5th oldest in the US)
University of Dayton - found 1850 - many years later. We get dibs on the UD moniker.

Could it be we are actually older than ........Colgate!!! ;) ;)