Duquesne football expected to jump into NEC

[TexasTerror]

A new NEC school in 2008? Decision time in the MAAC where Marist, Iona, La Salle and St. Peter's are looking like a smaller conference with each passing day...any word from NEC and MAAC faithful?

Duquesne football expected to jump into NEC
Announcement due to come tomorrow

Sunday, January 21, 2007
By Phil Axelrod, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Duquesne University is expected to announce tomorrow that its football team will move into the NCAA Division I-AA Northeast Conference, most likely beginning in 2008, and will offer athletic scholarships for the first time.

There also are plans to renovate Rooney Field to include a new office complex to house coaches for the football and soccer programs, locker rooms, permanent seating and improvements in the press box.

Duquesne athletic director Greg Amodio did not return phone calls.

Ron Ratner, the NEC associate commissioner of communications, refused to comment yesterday.

The schools in the NEC started to offer athletic scholarships in 2006, with a maximum of 30 allowed in the program at one time. Robert Morris, a member of the NEC, gave out the equivalent of 10 full scholarships to its freshman class.

Some I-AA schools, such as Youngstown State, offer the maximum of 63 permitted by the NCAA.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07021/755617-135.stm

[DFW HOYA]

Time for the Pioneer to make an offer to save these four schools.

A decade ago, the MAAC was a growing non-scholarship league that actually had one of its games broadcast primetime on ESPN2. Their lack of vision for I-AA football led six schools to leave the football conference with no competitive response, and they've now been passed over by at least three other leagues in basketball.

[aceinthehole]

Another newspaper article implys that Duquesne will play in the NEC this fall by replacing Stony Brook. Makes sense to me, I don't see why the Dukes would play the 2007 season in the MAAC.

http://www.timesonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17734940&BRD=2305&PAG=461&dept_id=478568&rfi=6

[danefan]

Is this the beginning of the merge between the NEC and the MAAC? If the NEC losses teams like Albany, CConn, and Monmouth to full scholly leagues, then the MAAC football conference being swallowed by the NEC makes sense.

[TheBisonator]

Duquesne has always been more committed to football than any of the other four MAAC schools. This will be a good move for them with their stadium renovations. The NEC is a partial-scholly football conference, is that right?? I think I heard someone say their schol. max was 30 or something like that?? Anyway, the addition of full rides will really help the Dukes in the future. I think they'll be very competitive right away in the NEC.

[MplsBison]

Time for the Pioneer to make an offer to save these four schools.



La Salle is closer to the NEC than Duquesne. Why don't they join up too?

[mainejeff]

Is this the beginning of the merge between the NEC and the MAAC? If the NEC losses teams like Albany, CConn, and Monmouth to full scholly leagues, then the MAAC football conference being swallowed by the NEC makes sense.

Sounds like it, huh Dane? Things seem to be moving toward AE Football too......2008 or 2009?

[maacfb]

Marist is in for the long haul. they are currently building a new stadium on campus. Certainly not an A-10 or 1-AA scholarship type facility but a huge upgrade for the program nonetheless. the question now becomes who do they play. ive heard this years schedule includes, Lafayette, Bucknell Fordham, Georgetown, San Diego and Columbia. Definitely the toughest they've played to date. the link to the new facility is below.


http://goredfoxes.cstv.com/facilities/leonidoff-new.html

[aceinthehole]

Marist is in for the long haul. they are currently building a new stadium on campus. Certainly not an A-10 or 1-AA scholarship type facility but a huge upgrade for the program nonetheless. the question now becomes who do they play. ive heard this years schedule includes, Lafayette, Bucknell Fordham, Georgetown, San Diego and Columbia. Definitely the toughest they've played to date. the link to the new facility is below.


http://goredfoxes.cstv.com/facilities/leonidoff-new.html

That's good news, but leaves a ton of questions:

1) Do you really think the PL will take Marist as FB-only member?

2) How long with the other MAAC teams (LaSalle, Iona, and St. Peter's) be able to compete and filld a I-AA schedule?

3) How does Marist schedule games late in the year when everone is in conference play?

4) Do you think Marist will join NEC football soon?

[DFW HOYA]

1) Do you really think the PL will take Marist as FB-only member?
2) How long with the other MAAC teams (LaSalle, Iona, and St. Peter's) be able to compete and filld a I-AA schedule?
3) How does Marist schedule games late in the year when everone is in conference play?
4) Do you think Marist will join NEC football soon?

Two cents:

1. The PL will not take Marist. The PL is only taking all sports members. The budget disparity is significant --Marist's budget is one third that of Georgetown, which itself is one third to one half that of the league.

2. MAAC schools will probably fill the opening (if Duq is giving immediate notice) with regional D-III teams like College of NJ, Union, USMMA. etc.

3. Some conference play often has bye-weeks in October and November. Georgetown usually picks up a non-conf game late in the season, such as Charleston Southern last year and Davidson in 2007.

4. I don't think Marist joins the NEC, at least not immediately. Marist used to belong to the NEC in all sports and left to join the MAAC. Conferences are hesitant to bring back former members. That being said, I agree that Marist is committed to I-AA/FCS football and a Pioneer division with the four MAAC schools, Davidson and Jacksonville would be a safe harbor.

[maacfb]

i agree with DFW. as to the PL, there are a couple problems, 1) I dont think a football only membership is coming from the PL 2) as a bball school first and foremost I dont know if the school would abandon MAAC bball 3) budget issues brought up earlier. i guess the safe bet is the PFL but I think the non-scholly model is slowly fading into oblivion so they would essentially be in the same spot a few years down the line.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm a bit surprised that folks are so quick to think that Marist would not join the PL. Sure they don't spend a lot on football now, but Georgetown had the same issue when they joined. And academically, they are pretty close to the PL as well.

I have no insider information on this... but here's what I think happens:

1) Marist joins the PL as an associate
2) LaSalle joins the NEC as an associate
3) St Peter's and Iona choose to disband football

IMO, Marist has been fishing around for this possibility for a few years just in case the MAAC folds. :twocents:

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Also, for those who don't think the PL would take on another associate member, I think they would in the right situation - meaning, maybe they have another all-sports member lined up. Let's say (theoretically) that Johns Hopkins joins as an all-sports member and Marist joins as an associate. That gives 9 Patriot League members for football - perfect for scheduling. Six full-timers (Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Johns Hopkins) and three part-timers (Fordham, Georgetown, Marist), all with eight league games, two Ivy games, and a "play-up" or a "play-down" game, based on preference.

I don't think any of the reasons given for Marist not joining the PL hold any water. :twocents:

[LUHawker]

I'm a bit surprised that folks are so quick to think that Marist would not join the PL. Sure they don't spend a lot on football now, but Georgetown had the same issue when they joined. And academically, they (Marist) are pretty close to the PL as well.



Are you high? :eyebrow: Marist is no where near the PL academically or on par with football either.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Are you high? :eyebrow: Marist is no where near the PL academically or on par with football either.

Oh really?

Academically
Grad. Rate/Acceptance Rate/Mean SAT

American 71%/51%/1270
Army 82%/14%/1265
Bucknell 90%/33%/1320
Colgate 91%/27%/1355
Holy Cross 91%/48%/1260
Lafayette 90%/37%/1275
Lehigh 85%/41%/1320
Navy 86%/13%/1285

Fordham 78% / 50% / 1215
Georgetown 93% / 22% / 1390
Marist 75% / 50% / 1175

GPI:
10. Patriot League (57.52)
41. Lehigh (37.78)
53. Lafayette (44.33)
55. Holy Cross (45.11)
73T. Bucknell (58.67)
73T. Colgate (58.67)
102. Fordham (77.33)
108. Georgetown (80.78)

112. Marist (83.44)

Could they be better? Absolutely. But academically they are very close to Fordham and American... and competitively they are about the same level as Fordham and Georgetown. Not a slam-dunk, of course. But these are not numbers to dismiss out-of-hand.

[andy7171]

With Old Dominion and Georiga State starting up football programs in the future. The CAA is going to have to split. If that occurs, could a UMass, UHN or Maine jump into the NEC and legitimize the conference as an auto bid? Or maybe Richmond or W & M join the PL? Something is going to have to give with the new teams starting up.

Good luck to Duquesne!

[Fordham]

I hope so in terms of your PL additions, andy. If you have any connections at either school, please get them to call the PL university presidents and PL offices to tell them to go scholly now in order to make that a possibility in the future.

This is a can of worms-type topic ... or maybe a bullet-dead-horse one but clearly the preference would be for the addition of UR and 'Nova first and I also love the idea of Hopkins.

[UAalum72]

The CAA is going to have to split. If that occurs, could a UMass, UHN or Maine jump into the NEC and legitimize the conference as an auto bid?
Good luck to Duquesne!
I can't see that as long as the NEC has scholarship limits. That would also make the NEC an unwieldy 11 or 12 team league or more.

[andy7171]

I hope so in terms of your PL additions, andy. If you have any connections at either school, please get them to call the PL university presidents and PL offices to tell them to go scholly now in order to make that a possibility in the future.

This is a can of worms-type topic ... or maybe a bullet-dead-horse one but clearly the preference would be for the addition of UR and 'Nova first and I also love the idea of Hopkins.
Yeah, I forgot about the scholarship/financial aid package differenciation the PL makes. Villanova is in the perfect geographical region for the PL.

Hopkins is D.III in everything but LaCrosse. Not sure how that worked out. I can't see JHU jumping up to D.I, especially in football. Georgetown could get some league wins though.:D

[andy7171]

I can't see that as long as the NEC has scholarship limits. That would also make the NEC an unwieldy 11 or 12 team league or more.
They'd have to drop the limits. Schools that diodn't like the upgrade could drop to the MAAC? I'm just thinking out loud. I don't really have a dog in this fight.

[henfan]

Or maybe Richmond or W & M join the PL?

Not W&M. It's kind of even silly to mention. There's not been any discussion or consideration whatsoever of the PL that I've read or heard. Why would they? W&M is a state-sponsored school who's institutional mission is more in line with the CAA, not the PL, as great a league as the PL is. W&M enjoys their athletic rivalries with ODU, VCU and JMU and they play all sports in the CAA.

The alums at UR just about began a revolution when the school began discussing PL football two years ago. I don't see that changing. The PL might remain an option for UR, but it's not their first option.

[89Hen]

With Old Dominion and Georiga State starting up football programs in the future. The CAA is going to have to split. If that occurs, could a UMass, UHN or Maine jump into the NEC and legitimize the conference as an auto bid? Or maybe Richmond or W & M join the PL? Something is going to have to give with the new teams starting up.

Good luck to Duquesne!
I'm not sure about either of your possible scenarios, but IMO all of this moving around by NEC/MAAC teams is in preparation for a possible reorganization in northeast/mid-atlantic. Stony, Duquesne, Albany, CCSU... see the writing on the wall and they want to put themselves in the best position to have a hand in any new/reformed conferences.

[aceinthehole]

They'd have to drop the limits. Schools that diodn't like the upgrade could drop to the MAAC? I'm just thinking out loud. I don't really have a dog in this fight.

FYI-

The MAAC doesn't really exist now. For 2007, just 3 of the 5 members are full MAAC members (Marist, Iona, and St. Peter's). SPC will likely drop football after 2007.

The MAAC does not want to administer football in any way. The conference is dead they will not add any schools.

DFW and others can speak better about the demise of this FB conference, but it is dying. The PFL will be the only option for non-scholly FB.

[andy7171]

I'm not sure about either of your possible scenarios, but IMO all of this moving around by NEC/MAAC teams is in preparation for a possible reorganization in northeast/mid-atlantic. Stony, Duquesne, Albany, CCSU... see the writing on the wall and they want to put themselves in the best position to have a hand in any new/reformed conferences.
This is what I was speaking to. Positioning for an impending restructuring.

[Go...gate]

Are you high? :eyebrow: Marist is no where near the PL academically or on par with football either.

Agreed. They are moving up in class academically, but are still not in the same category as the PL schools.

[andy7171]

Agreed. They are moving up in class academically, but are still not in the same category as the PL schools.
If this is the case with the PL, how did Towson ever get included as football only?

[89Hen]

If this is the case with the PL, how did Towson ever get included as football only?
Hey now, badmouthing your institution? :smiley_wi

[andy7171]

Hey now, badmouthing your institution? :smiley_wi
It's a prerequisite at Towson. :D
Nah, we have a good reputation academically. I just never though we fit in the PL. Small to mid sized private academic engineering schools inspiring to be Ivy League, and a 18K student public liberal arts univeristy.

[DetroitFlyer]

The rumor was that Duquesne had wanted to join the PFL but the powers that be in the PFL did not want to be responsible for the break-up of the MAAC.... Also, keep in mind that Campbell is still looking for a conference for the 2008 season.... Campbell's bid to join the PFL does not seem to have been approved yet and Ralph indicated that Campbell was also talking with the MAAC. Replacing Duquesne with Campbell would certainly be a big downgrade for the MAAC, but it might allow the conference to stick around for a while longer.... I will not be suprised one bit to see Campbell take Duquesne's place and the MAAC living on to see another day!

[Dane96]

Huh? Those schools dont have the travel budgets necessary to head down to the Carolina's with a full traveling squad. Bussing....would be nuts.

[Cobblestone]

I wish we'd join the NEC. I'm tired of us getting ours buttocks kicked in the A-10, soon to be CAA.

[DetroitFlyer]

One trip to the Fayetteville, NC area every other season is certainly not out of the question. A plane trip for the whole football team is about the cost of one or two scholarships. Still a lot cheaper than 30 scholarships in the NEC. The PFL would not help travel wise either. As I said, my prediction is that Campbell joins the MAAC, replacing Duquesne, and the MAAC lives on!

[Dane96]

If you knew the financial resources of the schools (outside Marist) you would understand it IS A PROBLEM. These schools BARELY operate at DIII budgets. Furthermore, what does the MAAC give Campbell? Nothing. It is not a viable conference, it gets no playoff (even a GIC), etc. Campbell would be best off playing OOC's....and collecting paychecks against 2-3 full scolly FCS teams.

[89Hen]

I wish we'd join the NEC. I'm tired of us getting ours buttocks kicked in the A-10, soon to be CAA.
I like URI, but you may get your wish soon enough Cobblestone. By 2008 everything should be clear.

[Model Citizen]

If you knew the financial resources of the schools (outside Marist) you would understand it IS A PROBLEM. These schools BARELY operate at DIII budgets. Furthermore, what does the MAAC give Campbell? Nothing. It is not a viable conference, it gets no playoff (even a GIC), etc. Campbell would be best off playing OOC's....and collecting paychecks against 2-3 full scolly FCS teams.

Marist plays at USD this year. Surely these schools can manage a trip to North Carolina every other year. :confused:

The MAAC would give Campbell something to play for, namely a MAAC championship. As most of us know, only about half the Champ. Sub. conferences get playoff bids.

I think Campbell will go for a MAAC type OOC schedule (soft) the first 3-5 years. Build confidence, no bodybag games.

[DetroitFlyer]

Campbell would probably be more competitive in the MAAC as a start-up, non-scholly team as opposed to playing in the PFL and getting thumped by San Diego, Drake, Dayton, MSU, etc. As for the remaining MAAC schools, it is because they are so "frugal" that keeping the MAAC alive makes sense. Yeah, traveling to Campbell is an expense, but virtually any other option is more expensive still.... By Campbell joining the MAAC it allows Campbell to build their program in a competitive environment, and it buys a bit more time for LaSalle, Iona, Marist and St. Peters to figure out what they want to do when they grow up in the most cost effective manner possible.

[aceinthehole]

Marist plays at USD this year. Surely these schools can manage a trip to North Carolina every other year. :confused:

The MAAC would give Campbell something to play for, namely a MAAC championship. As most of us know, only about half the Champ. Sub. conferences get playoff bids.

I think Campbell will go for a MAAC type OOC schedule (soft) the first 3-5 years. Build confidence, no bodybag games.

Maybe Marist can, but Iona, St. Peter's and LaSalle run on a club budget.

The MAAC is dead after 2007. My guess is Marist and maybe LaSalle follow Duquesne to the NEC and Iona and SPC folds.

By 2011 UA, CCSU, and maybe one other (Monmouth) join the northern CAA affiliates in a new full scholly conference.

[DetroitFlyer]

http://goduquesne.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/012207aai.html

18 scholarships in 2008, adding 2 per year for 3 years to top out at 24 scholarships....

[DetroitFlyer]

http://goduquesne.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/012207aai.html

18 Scholarships in 2008, adding 2 per year for 3 years to top out at 24.... At least as of today....

[aceinthehole]

http://goduquesne.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/012207aai.html

18 Scholarships in 2008, adding 2 per year for 3 years to top out at 24.... At least as of today....

http://www.northeastconference.org/News/fball/2007/1/22/nec-duquesnetonecrel.asp?path=fball

Great stuff. They are a welcome addition and should be competative immediatly.

I also think its fair to say LaSalle, Iona, and St. Peter's will not join the NEC without a bigger financial commitment to football. That's not going to happen, so they have the PFL or nothing.

What is Marist going to do?

[89Hen]

Very interesting. With Albany and Monmouth scheduling quite a few A10s in the past, I would expect to see the Dukes appearing on some in the near future. DU at UD in 2010 or so. :eyebrow:

[Dane96]

This is a welcome addition and gives the non-PA schools another item to sell PA recruits on. Should make the league and teams stronger. Most have been calling for this for awhile.

Again, the cards are not fully played out and without the auto-bid I would think Albany (and most likely CCSU and Monmouth) is still looking for other options.

[faxjusfax]

The rumor was that Duquesne had wanted to join the PFL but the powers that be in the PFL did not want to be responsible for the break-up of the MAAC.... Also, keep in mind that Campbell is still looking for a conference for the 2008 season.... Campbell's bid to join the PFL does not seem to have been approved yet and Ralph indicated that Campbell was also talking with the MAAC. Replacing Duquesne with Campbell would certainly be a big downgrade for the MAAC, but it might allow the conference to stick around for a while longer.... I will not be suprised one bit to see Campbell take Duquesne's place and the MAAC living on to see another day!

Let's see if the remaining administrations (La Salle, Marist, Iona, St Peter's) have the will to keep the MAAC going. There are enough positives in the addtional enrollments that a football program brings to actively pursue keeing football alive.

If the WILL is there, there is a WAY.

The way may be with Campbell, and the new DIV I college NJIT (New Jersey Institute of Technology). Their basketball program has started up, and a vote by the student body last year showed they were very interested in starting up a football program.

Other then that, :
$ are needed to join the Pioneer
$$$ will be needed to join the NEC

One other scenario (although unlikely) ......... with Stony Brook leaving, and the anticipated defections of Albany CCSU, possibly Monmouth, the remaining smaller schools in the NEC (Wagner, St. Francis, RMU, Sacred Heart) go backwards and go for non-scholly again, thus forming a new low-cost conference with the remaining MAAC teams.

[aceinthehole]

Let's see if the remaining administrations (La Salle, Marist, Iona, St Peter's) have the will to keep the MAAC going. There are enough positives in the addtional enrollments that a football program brings to actively pursue keeing football alive.

If the WILL is there, there is a WAY.

The way may be with Campbell, and the new DIV I college NJIT (New Jersey Institute of Technology). Their basketball program has started up, and a vote by the student body last year showed they were very interested in starting up a football program.

Other then that, :
$ are needed to join the Pioneer
$$$ will be needed to join the NEC

One other scenario (although unlikely) ......... with Stony Brook leaving, and the anticipated defections of Albany CCSU, possibly Monmouth, the remaining smaller schools in the NEC (Wagner, St. Francis, RMU, Sacred Heart) go backwards and go for non-scholly again, thus forming a new low-cost conference with the remaining MAAC teams.

Fax - sorry, I think the MAAC is dead - very dead.

1) The addition of Duquesne is a postive move for the NEC in the short-term. It strenghtens the NEC and the Dukes have committed more resources to football.

2) All current and future NEC teams are fully committed to at least limited schollys! Some teams like UA want fully schollys, while SFPA and Wagner may prefer closer to 20. The bottom line is that all NEC teams are more commited to football than any current MAAC team.

3) UA and CCSU (and possibly Monmouth) will very likely move to fully schollys in a new conference, its just a matter of time. Most likey in 2010 or 2011.

4) Even if UA and CCSU leave, the remaining NEC teams won't go back to the non-scholly MAAC model.

5) Any new NEC teams (Marist, SPC, or Iona) must be committed to at least limited-aid (about 20-30 schollys). IMO - only Marist fits that possiblity.

6) I think holding out hope for Campbell or NJIT is crazy - its just wishful thinking. The non-scholly model is not a viable team for FCS (I-AA) football.

[DetroitFlyer]

I think that USD demonstrated that you can in fact be competitive in FCS without scholarships.... ( Final GPI of 16 ). In the long haul, I see room in FCS for one, NS conference. The top teams in that conference can find enough tweeners that with some excellent coaching and development can compete in the world of FCS. Easy? NO! Impossible? USD's experience would seem to say NO as well....

[youwouldno]

Jim Harbaugh is one coach and he's gone. NS teams are NS teams... FCS in name only.

[Dane96]

USD is a different story all-together. You have Harbaugh, great in-state talent to recruit from, and the lovely San Diego area to recruit out-of-stater's to.

USD is unlike any other NS situation. I think they will continue to be good, however I also forsee a Great West jump for them in the next 5 years.

As the scholarships increase (remember, Monmouth played about 4 scholarship guys against USD), the NEC will be a much stronger group than a NS league. You can go nearly two deep with scholarships (partial) giving some depth at the NEC schools.

Let the arguments begin.....but ACE is right....the MAAC is as good as dead. Remember...Marist's stadium isnt "football only" (I think?!) I do, however, feel they could make a jump (and should if they would stop being so snobbish about the deal) the the NEC for football.

They would be a welcome addition.

[DFW HOYA]

The non-scholly model is not a viable team for FCS (I-AA) football.

Tell that to the Ivy League.

[Dane96]

Ha Ha....April Fool's is not for two and a half months. The Ivy should never be confused with "non-scholarship."

And the debate goes 'round and 'round.

[rmutv]

Don't forget, Marist was already a member of the Northeast Conference and left. I could be mistaken, but I don't think it was a pretty exit either.

I know here at Robert Morris, the scholarships will not be removed. There's even internal talk of slowly boosting them, although probably not at the pace of Albany and CCSU.

The question for Albany, CCSU and - potentially - Monmouth fans is this....how much of the "expand scholarships and leave the NEC" mantra is based on stated goals or just perceptions? Could those three logically stay in the NEC for several years to come?

[Dane96]

Albany will only stay in the NEC until A) the NEC expands to at least 50 rides or B) a new league forms.

UA wants full scholarship football....period.

[BobbyMo]

Well I for one am very happy to welcome the Dukes to the NEC. I think that they will do well in the conference. I would love to see all the schools ramp up schollys but i do not think it is practical for all of them to do so.

Anways, glad to have a new team since we are losing one.

[aceinthehole]

Albany will only stay in the NEC until A) the NEC expands to at least 50 rides or B) a new league forms.

UA wants full scholarship football....period.

This is my opinion only, but

UA, CCSU, and Monmouth want an AQ access to the playoffs !!!

Albany certainly would like fully schollys and join AE teams Maine and UNH in a FB conference, but I think that is secondary to the AQ issue.

As full NEC members, CCSU and Monmouth probably are more invested in improving NEC football than UA, but if we don't move to 50 scholly and AQ access to the playoffs in the next few years will have to explore other options.

BTW - I think Robert Morris and Sacred Heart also see the investment and value in fulll improving football with schollys and competing with the best of FCS teams. I think they can come aboard. The big problem is Wagner and SFPA - I don't know how they come up with the cash and women's equivs to go full scholly. I think the best they can ever do is about 30 rides.

[UAalum72]

Don't forget, Marist was already a member of the Northeast Conference and left. I could be mistaken, but I don't think it was a pretty exit either.
It's been almost ten years since Marist left, and they didn't play NEC football even then. Is anybody from that time still around? - other than Joe Walton, of course

[BobbyMo]

Joe Walton

Ole Jay Dubs, captain old school.

- no shotgun, thats too new fangled
- 11 games, thats crazy talk, i just want 10
- i heard there are good players from football, get them if they are good or not.


I am for anything to improve the NEC (neck as it called around the moon). Hopefully we can keep the schools that are in it now, and improve as a conference. I do agree with the Wagner and SFPA being the problem as far as moving forward, with RMU be a possible problem to a smaller exent. I think the Colonials would "follow the crowd" and i can not see title nine being a problem here with all of the girls teams. (perhaps TV can add more that situation)

Good to have some football of interest to talk about again.

[rmutv]

It's been almost ten years since Marist left, and they didn't play NEC football even then. Is anybody from that time still around? - other than Joe Walton, of course

That's my original reaction too...damn the torpedoes, bridges can be built again, etc...but I didn't know if I was missing something.

As far as athletics at RMU and Title IX, the only problem is the in the expansion or addition of more D-1 sports at the school. Right now there is a balance. It's why, despite a huge following in the program, Club Baseball won't move to being a Division 1 program.

Scholarships, and balancing the money given to male and female athletes, won't nearly be as much of a difficulty. I'm sure Coach Sal Buscaglia would love to throw more money at some freshman to come play for the Lady Colonials hoops team instead of cherry-picking JuCo players. I'm sure Craig Coleman will love to give money to his softball players, who are already quite good.

And I know for a fact that both hockey programs would love to toss more money at their athletes.

So if the football program requiring more scholarships in turn benefits those other programs via Title IX...I guarantee you that the board of directors won't turn it down, at least not right away.

Oh, by the way, more money just came into Moon Township. The board of directors turned down a proposal to build a medical school on campus. They said it wasn't worth the cost when there's other things on campus that can be addressed, including the communications program, parking, and some facets of the athletics program.

[aceinthehole]

http://www.tribune-democrat.com/sports/local_story_022232708.html

Here's an excerpt:

One question that arises with Duquesne’s move is what happens to the other four MAAC schools: LaSalle, St. Peter’s, Iona, and Marist.

“I hope that the Duquesne move would encourage the other schools to move in this direction,” Opfar said. “The biggest problem with those schools is that they offer institutional aid instead of football aid. The reason for that is that if they offer football aid, then they get into problems with Title IX.”

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One thing that is really interesting to be is the fate of LaSalle in all of this talk of the MAAC folding.

I went to a LaSalle game last year, and although their schedule had the usual D-III's on the plate (4 of them to be exact), they did get a decent turnout for their homecoming and they had just installed some new turf for their field (granted, it was a multipurpose field).

If I had never been to their field, I probably would say they would let football go without too much of a fight. But would they? They seemed to me to be committed to non-scholly football. I could see them playing non-scholly football against, say, NJIT on a regular basis.

How hard will the MAAC commissioner and the ADs of the MAAC schools push for a fifth school? Or are they just concerned about the MAAC tournament in March? These are the questions I have.

[Pard4Life]

Duquesne moving is long overdue. They finally found a league that makes sense and what some of us have said - the NEC.

The fact that has me more surprised is that they actually did go scholarship AND are dedicated to upgrading their facilities. Makes sense... they are in football heaven i.e. western PA.

Johns Hopkins in the PL? Yes we've talked about this... no it is unrealistic. Very nice thought though.

Marist as an associate... don't see a problem with that and is very logical from the football side of things. We do need an all-sport member... we will find one, but doesn't seem to be Marist... Fordham where the heck did you go?

And the Pards dropped Monmouth as their first game... disappointing indeed... but I'm guessing our schedule needed an 'easy' game since Monmouth no longer fits that mold... sorry Marist..

[Cobblestone]

I heard there has been some talk of America East forming a football conference. From what I understand they'd like to have the remaining I-AA Yankee Conference schools, URI, UMASS, UNH, Maine and Northeastern along with Albany, Wagner and a few others. Has anybody else heard of such discussion?

[Dane96]

LOL...yes, Cobblestone...this has been on-going. Wagner...not a part of the discussion at all.

It would be UNH, URI, Maine, UMASS, Albany, and Stony Brook at the heart. Hofstra has been the third "quiet school" (no matter what anyone is saying). NU...no word on that.

The schools who play in better hoop conferences (URI, UMASS, Hofstra) have told the AE to up the basketball profile before this becomes a reality.

The AE has done so this year, getting more games on TV (actually scheduling games around TV) and instituting a new marketing arm for AE hoops. The website has been upgrade, live stats for most games...and each school is ramping up with a variety of different upgrades.

Additionally, the AE has instituted a scheduling requirement in order to up the AE RPI (which is higher than the MAAC right now...at 20).

With the expected Georgia State entry into the fray, along with ODU coming on, the CAA will, in some way, split up or dismiss the associate members.

Again, this wont happen until around 2010-2011, which would give the AE plenty of time to up the hoop profile (Lax, Soccer, Softball, Volleyball, Track and Field are all solid). In 5 years I would expect salaries for coaches to increase and an overall higher profile for AE hoops which would give UMASS, URI, NU, and HOFSTRA reason to come back home.

[henfan]

I heard there has been some talk of America East forming a football conference... Has anybody else heard of such discussion?

Yup. The America East/NAC has been looking at football since the early 1990's. An expansion plan in 2000, which would have merged the CAA into the AEC, would have brought football, among other sports, and several CAA members to the AEC. Too bad that plan was torpedoed by wrong-headed resistance from Vermont, Hartford and Boston U.
http://www.uvm.edu/~tpatters/athletics/confexpand_files/frame.htm

Since that time, the idea of AEC football has lost considerable momentum, though AEC commish Peter Nero appears hopeful with emerging D-I programs Albany and Stony Brook. Right now though, there appears to be no solid concensus among members on how form a football league. There just aren't enough AEC members sponsoring football and, even among the 4 members that do sponsor the sport, there are varying levels of support. The AEC is probably reluctant to cobble together a league by relying heavily on affiliates, which is the right move. They're probably going to have to expand to land a football league. In time, the CAA will be more than willing to assist them in getting things rolling. 2010/2011 is probably the soonest anything like this could happen, assuming the NCAA expands the playoff autobids by that time. :twocents:

[mainejeff]

Yup. The America East/NAC has been looking at football since the early 1990's. An expansion plan in 2000, which would have merged the CAA into the AEC, would have brought football, among other sports, and several CAA members to the AEC. Too bad that plan was torpedoed by wrong-headed resistance from Vermont, Hartford and Boston U.
http://www.uvm.edu/~tpatters/athletics/confexpand_files/frame.htm

Since that time, the idea of AEC football has lost considerable momentum, though AEC commish Peter Nero appears hopeful with emerging D-I programs Albany and Stony Brook. Right now though, there appears to be no solid concensus among members on how form a football league. There just aren't enough AEC members sponsoring football and, even among the 4 members that do sponsor the sport, there are varying levels of support. The AEC is probably reluctant to cobble together a league by relying heavily on affiliates, which is the right move. They're probably going to have to expand to land a football league. In time, the CAA will be more than willing to assist them in getting things rolling. 2010/2011 is probably the soonest anything like this could happen, assuming the NCAA expands the playoff autobids by that time. :twocents:

"NAC"?......lol. haven't heard that in a while.

We all know that a full scale AE/CAA merger would have been a disaster. In hindsight, I'm glad that it didn't happen.

[Seahawks Fan]

Welcome Dukes to the NEC. Great addition.

I doubt that there is any lingering resentment toward Marist. That is history. Wagner's HC and AD, Walt Hameline, has been here for the last 25 years. I doubt he has any problem with Marist becoming a football member.

[aceinthehole]

Some interesting notes - http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07023/756061-135.stm

- We had serious questions about the future of the MAAC," Duquesne president Charles Dougherty said. "We wanted to secure the future of our football program and we reached out to the Northeast Conference."

- To maintain gender equity compliance under Title IX, Duquesne will begin by adding eight scholarships -- four apiece -- to the women's soccer and lacrosse programs.

- Amodio said he had conversations with the non-scholarship Pioneer League and the Patriot League, whose schools have much larger football budgets than those in the MAAC, before making a commitment to the NEC.

"The NEC is the best fit for Duquesne football," he said. "This is the way we want to go."

[henfan]

We all know that a full scale AE/CAA merger would have been a disaster. In hindsight, I'm glad that it didn't happen.

Come on, Jeff. Even you can't believe that tripe.xlolx xidiotx

No harm in admitting the AEC blew it big time. Absorbing the CAA would have not only resulted in the AEC landing stronger Olympic sport leagues across the board (in retrospect, multi NCAA & NIT hoop bids) but also one of the most competitive football conferences in I-AA. More guaranteed conference games and a divisional setup would have made scheduling home games much easier for all involved, particularly UMaine. (St. Joe's of VT, NJ Tech, and Maine-Farmington would have been disappointed, however.) UMaine and UNH also wouldn't have been forking over tens of thousand$ each year in football affiliate dues. This is probably why our respective alma maters (and UNH) were solidly behind the 2000 plan.

Just think, instead of fretting about which one of its members would be the next one poached, the AEC could now be focused squarely on landing Hockey East. Alas, it was not to be.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"The NEC is the best fit for Duquesne football," he said. "This is the way we want to go."

I don't think you'll get a lot of argument from PL fans on this board about this either. The Dukes fit the NEC mold much better than they do the Patriot League. :twocents: Duquesne apparently has been fishing with the PL about possible membership, but we basically weren't interested.

[mainejeff]

Come on, Jeff. Even you can't believe that tripe.xlolx xidiotx

No harm in admitting the AEC blew it big time. Absorbing the CAA would have not only resulted in the AEC landing stronger Olympic sport leagues across the board (in retrospect, multi NCAA & NIT hoop bids) but also one of the most competitive football conferences in I-AA. More guaranteed conference games and a divisional setup would have made scheduling home games much easier for all involved, particularly UMaine. (St. Joe's of VT, NJ Tech, and Maine-Farmington would have been disappointed, however.) UMaine and UNH also wouldn't have been forking over tens of thousand$ each year in football affiliate dues. This is probably why our respective alma maters (and UNH) were solidly behind the 2000 plan.

Just think, instead of fretting about which one of its members would be the next one poached, the AEC could now be focused squarely on landing Hockey East. Alas, it was not to be.

You can't be serious. 16 mid-majors in one league? It's a lame brain idea.....football or no football.

[boo]

Looks like the Marist AD is interested in the PL.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070124/SPORTS04/701240304/1002/SPORTS

Thoughts?

~~Boo

[boo]

Also, the Marist 2007 schedule:

Sept. 1 at Lafayette 6 p.m.

Sept. 8 at San Diego TBA

Sept. 15 at Wagner 1 p.m.

Sept. 22 at Columbia TBA

Sept. 29 at Bucknell TBA

Oct. 6 vs. Duquesne 1 p.m.

Oct. 13 vs. La Salle 7 p.m.

Oct. 20 at Saint Peter's 7 p.m.

Oct. 27 vs. Fordham 7 p.m.

Nov. 3 vs. Georgetown 1 p.m.

Nov. 10 at Iona TBA

[aceinthehole]

Looks like the Marist AD is interested in the PL.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070124/SPORTS04/701240304/1002/SPORTS

Thoughts?

~~Boo

"The Patriot League would be a terrific option for us," Murray said. "The Pioneer League would be a lot of travel and give us broader geographic exposure. The NEC is challenging because they're a scholarship conference and institutionally, we hesitate going in that direction."

Interesting. Marist is a solid program and school. They have a nice schedule. This year they could well be on their way to their first NCAA appearnce out of the MAAC in mens hoops. They have dominated the MACC's commisioner's cup. But it appears they do not want to invest in scholarships for football.

Too bad. I don't know what PL fans think, but if Duquesne didn't really fit in the PL well, do you think Marist will? And will the PL take Marist as a FB-only member?

Duquesne University - Pittsburgh, PA
Private (Catholic)
UG enrollment: 5,678
% accepted: 72
SAT Verbal: 510 - 600, Math: 520 - 620

Marist College - Poughkeepskie, NY
Private
UG enrollment: 4,896
% accepted: 50
SAT Verbal: 540 - 620, Math: 550 - 640

Source: www.collegeboard.com

[Dane96]

Marist needs to get off its high horse. They are not getting a PL invite...nor should they. If the PL is as serious as they claim to be (and I believe they are) Marist is not there yet. Marist is a great school, however they are not PL material...YET.

The fact that Marist is "hesitant" to go scholarship is odd; Do they really believe the PL is not, in a sense, scholarship level football. The funding at PL schools is clearly higher than that in the NEC.

This President is either very smart in this game...or is clueless. Though he may know how to run a university, I am putting my money on clueless when it comes to FCS football and commitment. He had little foresight and is now in a "what the heck?!?!" mode.

Unless they plan on being Georgetown (in terms of commitment level) they would be better off being in the NEC.

In short, this statement is his way of politely saying "We are better than the NEC and want to be in the PL with what we feel are likeminded institutions."

Anything else is contrary to common sense and levels of financial commitment among the schools of both leagues.

[boo]

This President is either very smart in this game...or is clueless. Though he may know how to run a university, I am putting my money on clueless when it comes to FCS football and commitment. He had little foresight and is now in a "what the heck?!?!" mode.


The article quoted the AD, not the President. I do not have any first hand knowledge, but it appears to me that Marist is ramping up their commitment to football. A new stadium, which, while not the greatest, is a vast improvement over what was there. A continually improving schedule. I imagine that what remains to be seen is a level of commitment for travel and for aid of some sort.

I disagree with your belief that Marist is on a "high horse." If they want to upgrade their program but don't want to go the scholarship route, why entertain the NEC? PL or PFL would make more sense (again, only with further commitment to travel and aid budgets).

~~Boo

[Dane96]

The President is the decision maker....the AD just the mouthpiece. The President has been anti-playing Albany because we give more benefits to students for quite awhile.

He has been quoted in the papers at least twice over the past few years.

Boo...been dealing with Marist for the past 17 years. THEY DO HAVE A CHIP. I have family and friends who have played there. My college hoops coach's son was the top Asst. for years....and we are all pretty close to them.

Marist wants PL stature.....period.

[boo]

Unless they plan on being Georgetown (in terms of commitment level) they would be better off being in the NEC.


I just re-read your post and wondered about this statement. Why would commitment to the NEC be at a lower level than commitment to the PL?

~~Boo

[Dane96]

And more over....the PL IS A MUCH LARGER FINANCIAL COMMITMENT THAN ANYTHING IN THE NEC. Period...end of story.

Teams in the PL have 1.5-3mm budgets. The NEC...under a mil. As you could gather, the lower budget PL teams arent that great. Still, they are nearly DOUBLE that of the NEC.

[Dane96]

There is your answer. GTOWN has the lowest commitment...and I can bet you the PL doesnt want another low funded team. Georgetown can get better if it upped the ante. Still, they are nearly double that of the NEC top team. Moreover, the PL wont kick out GTown because of name recognition.

We could never confuse Marist with Georgetown.

[boo]

Teams in the PL have 1.5-3mm budgets. The NEC...under a mil. As you could gather, the lower budget PL teams arent that great. Still, they are nearly DOUBLE that of the NEC.

I hope you don't think I'm trying to argue with you. Far from it.

Are your NEC numbers post-scholarship?

~~Boo

[Dane96]

Yes and no. The numbers are not post scholarship but they do include the grant in aids each school were offering which, in effect, were scholarships because they were rides that were given (just given on finance...and not just because we could.)

I know at Albany the numbers will be higher than most schools (our operating budget) and we still wont be near mid-pack PL.

[boo]

OK, I agree Marist is not to be confused with Georgetown. Anyone who argues differently would be a fool. However, there is clear evidence that the school is trending upward in terms of academic achievement, selectivness, and name recognition. I think that continued improvement in those areas, along with a commitment to the program would make Marist a good PL or PFL fit. At marist, 20 scholarships would exceed $500,000 in cost. Don't forget equivalent Title IX.

~~Boo

[DetroitFlyer]

A scholarship at Georgetown is a bit more expensive than at Albany.... The PL budgets look to be so high because their tuitions are so high.... That said, I have to believe that a new PL football member would be encouraged to fund at a 50+ equivalent level, whereas Duquesne is going into the NEC with a goal of being at a 24 level in 3 years.... The PL for Marist would be a huge dollar committment as compared to the NEC or PFL. I have not checked in a while, but the last time I did, the NEC budgets were pretty much in line with the PFL budgets, ( at least the better teams ). It will be interesting to see the impact of scholarships on the NEC schools....

[Dane96]

True, but a ride at Sacred Heart is as expensive (or close to) that of the PL. Which goes exactly to the point you and I both bring up. NO ONE (the school or the current PL teams) wants a new PL team coming in with a "Georgetown" style budget...which basically handicaps the team and the league.

And yes, for the most part the NEC and PFL budgets are pretty close (though I expect that to rise in the NEC with the near 30 rides that will be given).

This is why the comments about "not adding scholarships" really isnt a budgetary issue for Marist (e.g. going to the PL or PFL) but more of a high horse thing.

MARIST CLEARLY WASNT HAPPY WITH THE ACADEMIC PERCEPTION OF THE NEC. However, this is strictly for football...and not an all sport thing.

Marist's best bet to be competitive, to get a possible bid, and to build rivalries, is the NEC.

If it wants to REALLY SUPPORT FOOTBALL...then I could understand the PL.

[boo]

MARIST CLEARLY WASNT HAPPY WITH THE ACADEMIC PERCEPTION OF THE NEC.

That's probably part of it. But, at the time, the MAAC was clearly an upgrade for basketball, especially with Rider moving that way as well.

My impression of the NEC is that most of the schools are larger state schools. Marist, being a small, private school must feel more comfortable with similar schools. I'm not sure academic reputation of the NEC vs. the MAAC is excusive of the other.

~~Boo

[Dane96]

HUH? What are you talking about. Dude, the NEC is over 95% PRIVATE SCHOOLS. State schools...CCSU and FDU.

[henfan]

You can't be serious. 16 mid-majors in one league? It's a lame brain idea.....football or no football.

Jeff, the America East and CAA were indeed very serious about a 15-team league with 8 football schools, hence their plan. (UNCW was excluded, BTW.) Football was just one reasons behind it. Other reasons included bringing prestigious academic institutions into the AEC, bringing in schools with a proven commitment to athletics, expanding the recruiting base and membership reach, creating more marketing, promotional and revenue opportunities, and providing league stability. (The AEC's words, not mine.) At the end of the day, appeasing schools with modest committments to D-I athletics was more important than those issues, I guess. Allowing UVm, Hartford and BU to steer UMaine's ship could be construed as the epitome of lame-brained. But, hey, whatever floats your boat. As a fan of smaller, regional leagues, you're going to love the AEC in about 5 or 6 years. Should be small and regional enough for you after the next round of defections.:smiley_wi

[Dane96]

Yippee....does that mean UA will be moving to the CAA?!

;)

[aceinthehole]

Following are the reported expenses for football for all Private, non-profit I-AA schools in New England and Mid-East states for 2004 from the Dept. of Educ.


INSTNM Expenses per Team for Men
HOFSTRA UNIVERSITY 3,441,947
VILLANOVA UNIVERSITY 3,382,519
COLGATE UNIVERSITY 3,345,710
FORDHAM UNIVERSITY 3,233,215
NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY 3,131,239
LEHIGH UNIVERSITY 3,062,606
LAFAYETTE COLLEGE 2,786,710
HOWARD UNIVERSITY 2,675,724
COLLEGE OF THE HOLY CROSS 2,550,225
BUCKNELL UNIVERSITY 2,427,274
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK 2,334,683
HARVARD UNIVERSITY 1,922,540
YALE UNIVERSITY 1,873,431
PRINCETON UNIVERSITY 1,808,926
DARTMOUTH COLLEGE 1,778,064
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA 1,710,777
CORNELL UNIVERSITY-ENDOWED COLLEGES 1,524,654
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY 1,267,484
BROWN UNIVERSITY 1,222,102
SACRED HEART UNIVERSITY 901,898
MONMOUTH UNIVERSITY 842,868
WAGNER COLLEGE 799,714
SAINT FRANCIS UNIVERSITY 704,970
ROBERT MORRIS UNIVERSITY 532,677
DUQUESNE UNIVERSITY 493,358
MARIST COLLEGE 390,724
IONA COLLEGE 320,503
SAINT PETERS COLLEGE 300,564
LA SALLE UNIVERSITY 233,567


Source: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/main.asp

I think its very clear Marist is nowhere near the fincial commitment required from the PL. If they can't afford the NEC, they can't afford the PL!

I agree with Dane, it appears certain administrators at Marist do not wish to associate with the NEC. Now they probably won't come out and say it, but that's my impression and the more I think about it, the less I care about helping Marist find a football home in 2008. Have fun in the MAAC or as an Indy.

If Duquesene (A-10 in other sports) is willing to be a football conference partner with SFPA, Wagner, CCSU, and others, than Marist should have no problem - if not hey can join the Pioneer. The Dukes bring more to the table for the NEC anyway. And Red Fox fans shouldn't hold their breath for a PL invite anytime soon. :twocents:

[boo]

HUH? What are you talking about. Dude, the NEC is over 95% PRIVATE SCHOOLS. State schools...CCSU and FDU.

You''re right. I was thinking about Albany, CCSU, Stony Brook. I wasn't thinking about Wanger, Sacred Heart, etc when I wrote that.

~~Boo

[aceinthehole]

HUH? What are you talking about. Dude, the NEC is over 95% PRIVATE SCHOOLS. State schools...CCSU and FDU.

CCSU is the ONLY public school in the NEC.

All others, including FDU and LIU are private.

In the FB league just CCSU and ALbany are public, now that SBU left,

[aceinthehole]

Here are the expenses for the public schools:


UNIVERSITY OF DELAWARE 3,451,771
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS-AMHERST 3,273,833
UNIVERSITY OF RHODE ISLAND 3,045,089
UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE-MAIN CAMPUS 2,719,250
UNIVERSITY OF MAINE 2,387,107
DELAWARE STATE UNIVERSITY 2,087,994
TOWSON UNIVERSITY 1,601,773
MORGAN STATE UNIVERSITY 1,524,402
SUNY AT STONY BROOK 894,678
CENTRAL CONNECTICUT STATE UNIVERSITY 801,043
SUNY AT ALBANY 738,724

[boo]

I think its very clear Marist is nowhere near the fincial commitment required from the PL. If they can't afford the NEC, they can't afford the PL!


I didn't say that Marist spent the same as a PL, or even NEC, school now. I said there was evidence that Marist was comitting to football. I also asked if the PL might consider Marist IF Marist made a financial commitment...


the more I think about it, the less I care about helping Marist find a football home in 2008. Have fun in the MAAC or as an Indy.


Didn't know you could help. I'm sure Marist would love for you to reconsider!!!


~~Boo

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Marist's best bet to be competitive, to get a possible bid, and to build rivalries, is the NEC... If it wants to REALLY SUPPORT FOOTBALL...then I could understand the PL.

First, the NEC is a long way from getting a playoff bid, while the PL has one already that isn't going anywhere.

Second, the only rivalry Marist would have in the NEC would be Albany and maybe CCSU or Wagner. The only real rival they might have in the PL would be Fordham and maybe Holy Cross or Colgate. I'd say that's a wash.

As for competitiveness, I'd say, is St. Francis competitive in the NEC? The NEC, like the Patriot, has evolved into a three-or-four team league, not unlike the Patriot. (Albany, CCSU, Monmouth - Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate). You can't go out and beat Patriot teams on the one hand and then cry that the NEC is more "competitive" for Marist on the other.

I agree that if Marist joins, they will have to ramp-up monetarily in a lot of sports, not just football. I think that they would be an extremely attractive candidate, warts and all, if they want to join the Patriot in all sports. In addition, I think their chances of joining the Patriot League are a lot brighter than anyone posting on this board thinks. :twocents:

[Pard4Life]

That article has "I want to be in the Patriot League" all over it, however, they seemed kind of reserved because subtly, the PL might go scholarship in several years.. and Marist would not want to do that.

If Marist shows they can support football financially and field competitve teams, I would not mind seeing them in the PL... regardless if they do not have the academic numbers. They appear decent enough. I am more interested in our league's survival.

What other option is out there for the PL? LFN did that synopsis last year, but what looks reasonable now?

[Pard4Life]

First, the NEC is a long way from getting a playoff bid, while the PL has one already that isn't going anywhere.

Second, the only rivalry Marist would have in the NEC would be Albany and maybe CCSU or Wagner. The only real rival they might have in the PL would be Fordham and maybe Holy Cross or Colgate. I'd say that's a wash.

As for competitiveness, I'd say, is St. Francis competitive in the NEC? The NEC, like the Patriot, has evolved into a three-or-four team league, not unlike the Patriot. (Albany, CCSU, Monmouth - Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate). You can't go out and beat Patriot teams on the one hand and then cry that the NEC is more "competitive" for Marist on the other.

I agree that if Marist joins, they will have to ramp-up monetarily in a lot of sports, not just football. I think that they would be an extremely attractive candidate, warts and all, if they want to join the Patriot in all sports. In addition, I think their chances of joining the Patriot League are a lot brighter than anyone posting on this board thinks. :twocents:

I totally agree, but the question is the supposed reluctance to lose their basketball conference. They play Holy Cross and Lafayette sometimes though.

[boo]

I totally agree, but the question is the supposed reluctance to lose their basketball conference. They play Holy Cross and Lafayette sometimes though.

I'm one who thinks that the PL may ultimately be a better BBall conference than the MAAC. Marist owns the MAAC in the non-revenue sports, so, if the PL would be more competitive on the whole, it would make sense. Of course, this is with the assumption that Marist would commit to spending levels to field a competitive PL footall team. Well, and that the PL would want Marist;-)

~~Boo

[Dane96]

CCSU is the ONLY public school in the NEC.

All others, including FDU and LIU are private.

In the FB league just CCSU and ALbany are public, now that SBU left,

I could have sworn FDU is partially state funded....similar to Delaware.

Boo...I wasnt talking football, which as Ace points out...would only be CCSU and associate Albany.

LFN- I should have qualified my statemet. I meant if MARIST wants to keep costs low...and have the possibility of a bid.

The NEC is much closer to a bid than many want to believe. The playoffs, especially in light of the 12th game vote down, will likely be expanded.

Rivalries with the NEC schools would clearly be regional in the NEC. Are you kidding?

[aceinthehole]

"The NEC is challenging because they're a scholarship conference and institutionally, we hesitate going in that direction."

This is the quote. What does it mean?

A) We don't want to join with current NEC programs
B) We don't want to offer schollys, they're too expensive
C) We don't want to offer schollys, as a matter of principle
D) All of the above
E) None of the above

[Dane96]

D

[boo]

"The NEC is challenging because they're a scholarship conference and institutionally, we hesitate going in that direction."

This is the quote. What does it mean?

A) We don't want to join with current NEC programs
B) We don't want to offer schollys, they're too expensive
C) We don't want to offer schollys, as a matter of principle
D) All of the above
E) None of the above

F. Posturing for a PL or PFL invite.

~~Boo

[aceinthehole]

If Marist shows they can support football financially and field competitve teams, I would not mind seeing them in the PL... regardless if they do not have the academic numbers. They appear decent enough. I am more interested in our league's survival.

What other option is out there for the PL? LFN did that synopsis last year, but what looks reasonable now?

First, I highly respect the PL. I've always though the NEC has used the PL as a model and has earned some conference defining wins vs. your teams. You have great history and a great academics. Its a great conference and has some great institutions.

But my question for PL fans is:

How would you rate Duquesene, Marist, and Monmouth the for full membership to the PL based on athletics, academics, facilities, geography, history, fan and media support, and miscellanous?

[Go...gate]

IMO, none of them qualify at this time. Monmouth and Marist are putting more money into raising their academic profile, but this will take a while.

[maacfb]

ace,

that quote says all of the above. he is politely saying, or so he thinks, that Marist is more academically oriented than the NEC which cant be proven one way or the other. you can compare academic stats all day but I think he is referring more towards the institutions aspirations in the long term. If Albany & CCSU are looking towards offering a full 63 in the future, Marist is not. I could be wrong but thats the feeling I get. any conference affiliation they go with will cost more than what they pay today, whether that is in scholarship money or in travel costs is going to have to be determined by the school and more importantly the members of the other conferences. Honestly if Im the NEC commish and I see that quote Im not exactly opening my arms for Marist.

another issue I see is the accounting of reported expenses & maybe someone can clarify this for me but if a school is non-scholarship and gives need based aid. how would the following be accounted for: a recruited student-athlete gets a need based grant of 10,000 which he would have gotten as a student... does that go into the expense line for football or is it in general grant expenses for the school (put there to show that footballs expenses = revenues). If the PL is so called need-based than how are there expense numbers so much higher.

[Go...gate]

We seem to be getting closer to the predicted "shake-out" of conferences and teams.

[Fordham]

Along those lines, go...gate, academically I think Notre Dame is a decent fit for the PL but it's too bad we're not taking any more of those football-only affiliates.

[danefan]

We seem to be getting closer to the predicted "shake-out" of conferences and teams.


Hmmm....xcoffeex
We shall see...we shall see.

[DFW HOYA]

We seem to be getting closer to the predicted "shake-out" of conferences and teams.

For I-AA...uh, FCS...probably not. You may see the SoCon and Gateway add and subtract a couple, and there will be some sort of conference issue in the West, but what happens is not going to result in a flood of teams going up or down.

[Franks Tanks]

First, I highly respect the PL. I've always though the NEC has used the PL as a model and has earned some conference defining wins vs. your teams. You have great history and a great academics. Its a great conference and has some great institutions.

But my question for PL fans is:

How would you rate Duquesene, Marist, and Monmouth the for full membership to the PL based on athletics, academics, facilities, geography, history, fan and media support, and miscellanous?

Personally I think Monmouth is the most intriguing potential PL member of the 3 in the next few years, I think they have the most potential. A school with a great location in a talent rich state that has limited options for players. Also would be great location wise with Lafayette, Lehigh, and Fordham being very close. It alos seems Monmouth has the most momentum as far as improving their academic profile, as well as developing a solid commitment to their FB team.

[aceinthehole]

ace,

that quote says all of the above. he is politely saying, or so he thinks, that Marist is more academically oriented than the NEC which cant be proven one way or the other. you can compare academic stats all day but I think he is referring more towards the institutions aspirations in the long term. If Albany & CCSU are looking towards offering a full 63 in the future, Marist is not. I could be wrong but thats the feeling I get. any conference affiliation they go with will cost more than what they pay today, whether that is in scholarship money or in travel costs is going to have to be determined by the school and more importantly the members of the other conferences. Honestly if Im the NEC commish and I see that quote Im not exactly opening my arms for Marist.

another issue I see is the accounting of reported expenses & maybe someone can clarify this for me but if a school is non-scholarship and gives need based aid. how would the following be accounted for: a recruited student-athlete gets a need based grant of 10,000 which he would have gotten as a student... does that go into the expense line for football or is it in general grant expenses for the school (put there to show that footballs expenses = revenues). If the PL is so called need-based than how are there expense numbers so much higher.

Thanks. I agree 100%.

Good question, I have yet to get an answer on that reporting issue.

[JoltinJoe]

Oh really?

Academically
Grad. Rate/Acceptance Rate/Mean SAT

American 71%/51%/1270
Army 82%/14%/1265
Bucknell 90%/33%/1320
Colgate 91%/27%/1355
Holy Cross 91%/48%/1260
Lafayette 90%/37%/1275
Lehigh 85%/41%/1320
Navy 86%/13%/1285

Fordham 78% / 50% / 1215
Georgetown 93% / 22% / 1390
Marist 75% / 50% / 1175

GPI:
10. Patriot League (57.52)
41. Lehigh (37.78)
53. Lafayette (44.33)
55. Holy Cross (45.11)
73T. Bucknell (58.67)
73T. Colgate (58.67)
102. Fordham (77.33)
108. Georgetown (80.78)

112. Marist (83.44)

Could they be better? Absolutely. But academically they are very close to Fordham and American... and competitively they are about the same level as Fordham and Georgetown. Not a slam-dunk, of course. But these are not numbers to dismiss out-of-hand.

I usually bite my tongue when I see comments like this but today I'm going to correct misconceptions about Fordham.

Marist is a fine school but to say that it is academically "close to Fordham" is flat out wrong. Initially, I'd like to highlight that Fordham is a comprehensive research university currently with five undergraduate colleges (one to close after 2008 and which is not accepting new students), nationally regarded academic programs, and highly regarded graduate and professional programs. Fordham's law school is the 15th most competitive program in the country in terms of admissions. Fordham's graduate program in psychology accepts just five percent of its applicants. Fordham probably has the single most selective undergraduate program in the nation -- a cooperative with the Alvin Ailey School of Dance leading to a Bachelor of Fine Arts which accepts just four percent of its applicants. Fordham also has nationally ranked undergraduate and graduate business programs.

Fordham's three flagship undergraduate colleges -- Fordham College at Rose Hill, Fordham College at Lincoln Center, and the College of Business Administration -- received over 21,000 applications this year. The acceptance rate for these three colleges will be in the mid-30 percent range (your figures are old). Although everyone always cites SAT scores as the primary measure of "selectiveness," Fordham's undergraduate population of enrolled students typically has the highest secondary school GPA of any school in the Patriot League -- a 3.7average. This is because Fordham has historically put far greater weight on a student's four-year record than most colleges in its admission process. As a former Dean of Fordham College Rose Hill used to say, "We weigh far more heavily four years of achievement than four hours of achievement." In any event, the median SAT scores for these three schools are higher today than reported in your figures. Perhaps what had held back the overall selectivity of Fordham over the last 20 years was the public's poor perception about the Bronx, the location of its primary campus. But as perceptions of the Bronx change, and Fordham's New York City location increasingly becomes an asset, Fordham continues to draw more interest. Applications are up 50 percent over the past two years alone.

In terms of overall academic resources, Fordham is probably second only to Georgetown among the PL football schools. Fordham's faculty is more highly published than the other PL schools and is more frequently cited (save perhaps Georgetown). Fordham has historically counted and still counts preeminent theologians, philosophers, sociologists and other academics among its faculty. By way of mere example, Avery Dulles, probably America's preemiment Christian theologian today, is a Fordham faculty member.

Fordham's curriculum is challenging and the school is known for making students work hard to get good grades. Fordham graduates succeed and are found at the top of every industry due in part to the appreciation for hard work which is instilled by Fordham's no-nonsense Jesuit influence.

None of this is intended to be a knock on Marist. But I get tired of hearing suggestions from other PL posters that Fordham is the weakest of the PL football schools. It just isn't true.

Incidentally, Fordham produced nine Fulbright scholars last year. How many did Lehigh produce?;)

[89Hen]

We seem to be getting closer to the predicted "shake-out" of conferences and teams.
We know the drop dead date, it's just a matter of how much before then it actually happens.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

another issue I see is the accounting of reported expenses & maybe someone can clarify this for me but if a school is non-scholarship and gives need based aid. how would the following be accounted for: a recruited student-athlete gets a need based grant of 10,000 which he would have gotten as a student... does that go into the expense line for football or is it in general grant expenses for the school (put there to show that footballs expenses = revenues). If the PL is so called need-based than how are there expense numbers so much higher.

I believe the answer is that, yes, it would go into the expense line for football, just like it does for the Patriot League. I think the reason the Patriot League's are so much higher is simply because PL institutions simply choose to have more of it available.

I feel like these "revenue" numbers are not great indicators as to what the football programs are "worth" to a school. I think a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking of athletic departments as direct revenue generators for the school, i.e, if their expenses are higher than their revenues then they are a net drain on the university. I feel this is a sad legacy to the idiocy of the John Silber regime at Boston University, who felt this way and ultimately decided to can football at BU.

For example, Football "lost money" putting a state-of-the-art training facility and practice field at Lehigh - but the Eagles train at Lehigh every summer, attracting perhaps 1,000 fans a year (never mind press, etc). Silber would focus on the "loss on the balance sheet", but I would focus on the increased number of people going to Lehigh to watch the Eagles, the chance for the players to meet some of the players and coaches, the press line from Bethlehem for a straight month...

Back to the subject at hand, if Marist were to join the PL, the main question is this: would it be as an all-sports member, or football-only? Coming in as all-sports would have ramifications across the board for athletic expenses. No doubt they would increase.

[DFW HOYA]

We know the drop dead date, it's just a matter of how much before then it actually happens.

When is it?

[aceinthehole]

When is it?

I assume he means 2011, the first season that ODU will join CAA football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I finally weighed in on Duquesne leaving the MAAC.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

Short version: We should bring Marist on board in all sports.

[Go...gate]

Along those lines, go...gate, academically I think Notre Dame is a decent fit for the PL but it's too bad we're not taking any more of those football-only affiliates.

FWIW, the Hell with ND as an associate FB member. I would rather have Fordham for all sports. :)

Whoever it will be, all-sports membership will be a prerequisite.

[Go...gate]

I usually bite my tongue when I see comments like this but today I'm going to correct misconceptions about Fordham.

Marist is a fine school but to say that it is academically "close to Fordham" is flat out wrong. Initially, I'd like to highlight that Fordham is a comprehensive research university currently with five undergraduate colleges (one to close after 2008 and which is not accepting new students), nationally regarded academic programs, and highly regarded graduate and professional programs. Fordham's law school is the 15th most competitive program in the country in terms of admissions. Fordham's graduate program in psychology accepts just five percent of its applicants. Fordham probably has the single most selective undergraduate program in the nation -- a cooperative with the Alvin Ailey School of Dance leading to a Bachelor of Fine Arts which accepts just four percent of its applicants. Fordham also has nationally ranked undergraduate and graduate business programs.

Fordham's three flagship undergraduate colleges -- Fordham College at Rose Hill, Fordham College at Lincoln Center, and the College of Business Administration -- received over 21,000 applications this year. The acceptance rate for these three colleges will be in the mid-30 percent range (your figures are old). Although everyone always cites SAT scores as the primary measure of "selectiveness," Fordham's undergraduate population of enrolled students typically has the highest secondary school GPA of any school in the Patriot League -- a 3.7average. This is because Fordham has historically put far greater weight on a student's four-year record than most colleges in its admission process. As a former Dean of Fordham College Rose Hill used to say, "We weigh far more heavily four years of achievement than four hours of achievement." In any event, the median SAT scores for these three schools are higher today than reported in your figures. Perhaps what had held back the overall selectivity of Fordham over the last 20 years was the public's poor perception about the Bronx, the location of its primary campus. But as perceptions of the Bronx change, and Fordham's New York City location increasingly becomes an asset, Fordham continues to draw more interest. Applications are up 50 percent over the past two years alone.

In terms of overall academic resources, Fordham is probably second only to Georgetown among the PL football schools. Fordham's faculty is more highly published than the other PL schools and is more frequently cited (save perhaps Georgetown). Fordham has historically counted and still counts preeminent theologians, philosophers, sociologists and other academics among its faculty. By way of mere example, Avery Dulles, probably America's preemiment Christian theologian today, is a Fordham faculty member.

Fordham's curriculum is challenging and the school is known for making students work hard to get good grades. Fordham graduates succeed and are found at the top of every industry due in part to the appreciation for hard work which is instilled by Fordham's no-nonsense Jesuit influence.

None of this is intended to be a knock on Marist. But I get tired of hearing suggestions from other PL posters that Fordham is the weakest of the PL football schools. It just isn't true.

Incidentally, Fordham produced nine Fulbright scholars last year. How many did Lehigh produce?;)

Right on, JoltinJoe. Fordham is a great school and they need to do a better job of getting the word out!

[Pard4Life]

Right on, JoltinJoe. Fordham is a great school and they need to do a better job of getting the word out!

I agree, good synopsis JoltinJoe, now you have me wanting to go to Fordham! xlolx Lafayette has its fair share of Fullbrights for a school our size.. we churn out usually two per year. However, we are tops anywhere in terms of liberal arts colleges in giving out Goldwater Scholarships (for undergrad excellence in math, engineering, science). I think we are on par with Duke for overall scholarships in the past five years. Due to our size, we can only give so many.. or else we'd be up there with Princeton.

Lafayette is similar with admissions.. four years of achievement over four hours. However, SAT average is going up each year.

[Pard4Life]

Personally I think Monmouth is the most intriguing potential PL member of the 3 in the next few years, I think they have the most potential. A school with a great location in a talent rich state that has limited options for players. Also would be great location wise with Lafayette, Lehigh, and Fordham being very close. It alos seems Monmouth has the most momentum as far as improving their academic profile, as well as developing a solid commitment to their FB team.

Monmouth would fit in nicely, but I don't think they would fit at all in terms of profile unfortunately. Clearly they are the best football team out there if we had to choose one to join. But, are they committed to giving those 63 scholarships? If so, then they are no-fit automatically. I think all we are left with is Marist. They can get to a competitive level but it will take awhile.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fordham is a great Patriot League school and I'm very glad they're part of our league. (Of course, they should be in the PL in all sports :D ) Marist is a good school that has a bit of climbing to do in order to get to the same level as Fordham, Bucknell, or any PL school - academically and athletically. But they ain't chopped liver either. That's my only point.

[LUHawker]

I don't think Marist brings anything to the table for the Patriot League in football. No rivalries, no history, no tradition. Academics, prestige, size, etc. are all mismatches with the PL schools.

Other than having another football member, what does that get us? GPI goes down, eliminates an OOC game with a team that we would choose to play. Lafayette and Georgetown have no trouble scheduling Marist now, so why force that matchup on the rest of the league?

Let's ask a basic question here: Does the addition of Marist to the PL (football speaking) add or detract from the strength, attractiveness and profile of the league?

Clearly the answer is no. It fits geographically, but that is where the fit stops.

NO to Marist.

[Pard4Life]

I don't think Marist brings anything to the table for the Patriot League in football. No rivalries, no history, no tradition. Academics, prestige, size, etc. are all mismatches with the PL schools.

Other than having another football member, what does that get us? GPI goes down, eliminates an OOC game with a team that we would choose to play. Lafayette and Georgetown have no trouble scheduling Marist now, so why force that matchup on the rest of the league?

Let's ask a basic question here: Does the addition of Marist to the PL (football speaking) add or detract from the strength, attractiveness and profile of the league?

Clearly the answer is no. It fits geographically, but that is where the fit stops.

NO to Marist.

The only thing Marist brings IMO is just another number to count in our league.

If we had Johns Hopkins or like institution to be number 8, we would not be talking about this.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One thing I really haven't been able to get answered by anyone is:

What about LaSalle, Iona, St. Peter's? How devoted are they to non-scholarship football? Will they fight to keep the MAAC (and non-scholarship) football alive, or will they fold their tents or look elsewhere?

As far as I can figure, LaSalle could possibly fight to join another league or continue play as a FCS non-scholly independent. The trouble with LaSalle is that they're having a tough enough time as it is - it's hard to see them push to play in the Pioneer League when they've already got 4 D-III's on the schedule, all from the local area (TCNJ, NJIT, etc.) Travelling to USD just wouldn't seem to be in their budget.

I know it sounds nuts, but is there a chance that LaSalle would at least consider the Patriot League? They would have to ramp up their spending on football in a big way if they did, and there's zero indication that they are willing to do so. But might they join if it's the only realistic way to preserve football - a last-ditch effort, if you will?

If not the PL, what about the NEC?

I have no idea about Iona or St. Peter's. I seriously think that those programs are on the brink of folding anyway, especially St. Peter's (who rent their stadium from Jersey City). But more importantly, would they fight to keep football around, or let it fold?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If we had Johns Hopkins or like institution to be number 8, we would not be talking about this.

My point with my blog posting. How long are we going to wait for a nuclear scientist? How many like-minded institutions are there really out there that might be willing to join in all sports?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think Marist brings anything to the table for the Patriot League in football. No rivalries, no history, no tradition. Academics, prestige, size, etc. are all mismatches with the PL schools.

Then who is? Who is this nuclear scientist who is the perfect fit for the PL that isn't in an FBS conference or a power basketball conference?


Other than having another football member, what does that get us? GPI goes down, eliminates an OOC game with a team that we would choose to play. Lafayette and Georgetown have no trouble scheduling Marist now, so why force that matchup on the rest of the league?

The GPI goes down one year, big deal. PL fans have been complaining about that third or fourth Ivy/NEC OOC game for years now, and now it's an asset?


Let's ask a basic question here: Does the addition of Marist to the PL (football speaking) add or detract from the strength, attractiveness and profile of the league?... Clearly the answer is no. It fits geographically, but that is where the fit stops.

It adds to the strength and profile of the league by 1) growing the league with a school that is willing to play ball by its rules, and 2) it increases the number of teams in the league promoting stability. Exactly how is Marist an unattractive school except the fact that it's a non-scholarship school at present? After 3-4 years it should be much better after recruiting (and spending) as a PL school.

Furthermore, Marist's 15-5 basketball team - including wins this year over Minnesota, Delaware, ODU and Richmond - would be a HUGE asset for our league, and the elephant in the room.

[Fordham]

LFN, adding Marist just seems like a passive move by the PL as a means to get to 8 when being more active by adding football scholarships could give us the platform to recruit a 'Nova or Richmond.

It's more so the missing of an opportunity to not only increase the competitiveness of the league by adding scholarships but also of having a much better chance of attracting schools who's academic profiles are already where we need them to be v. ramping upwards.

PS - Joe, great post.

[carney2]

LFN, adding Marist just seems like a passive move by the PL as a means to get to 8 when being more active by adding football scholarships could give us the platform to recruit a 'Nova or Richmond.
It's more so the missing of an opportunity to not only increase the competitiveness of the league by adding scholarships but also of having a much better chance of attracting schools who's academic profiles are already where we need them to be v. ramping upwards.

PS - Joe, great post.

A passive move or a defensive move? The current Patriot League football membership of seven is "shaky" in two respects:

1. Georgetown is an associate member for football only. Logic says that, at some point, the intelligent people who run the University are going to have to make a decision to get in or get out. In other words, they either need to ramp up their program dramatically to play with the "big kids," or they need to end the misery of their embarrassing ineptitude by either dropping football or taking their show elsewhere. It seems a certainty that the rest of the League is not going to drop to their level. The League in general enjoys having Georgetown and its good name around and will not be moving them to the door, but...

In any event, the League needs to adopt a defensive position because it is not out of the question that Hoya brass will eventually recognize, if this is the case, that they cannot or will not devote the necessary resources to football and that they cannot be competitive without doing so.

2. Fordham is also a football only associate member. It is difficult to perceive that they have a better football option than the Patriot League where they have been inconsistently competitive, but not being a full member of the League their bonding is not as strong as it is for the fully committed members. In other words, I personally question their commitment with only one toe in the Patriot League waters.

Let's take a look at the other likely candidates who continue to be mentioned as potential Patriot League members:

RICHMOND: Spider officials gave this move serious consideration two years ago. The reaction of the alumni and other influential groups was just short of ordering in SWAT and demolition teams. It is a virtual certainty that, after getting their hands severely slapped, Richmond officials will not peek down this trail again in the foreseeable future.

VILLANOVA: With their basketball, track, cross country, and other "big time" programs, the Cats are not not reasonable candidates for full membership. In addition, they have no incentive to desert the higher level competition of CAA (formerly A-10) football where they have built some solid rivalries.

WILLIAM & MARY: A state university with strong - and increasing - ties to other state universities in Virginia. In addition, they are very competitive in their current league. If there is incentive for them to consider the Patriot League, I don't see it. In addition, the Towson experience has to be a caution flag for the League getting involved again with a state university.

VMI: Perhaps they would like to affiliate themselves with Army and Navy. They could extricate themselves from a low visibility conference (The Big South) and still retain their rivalry with SoCon Citadel. Geography would be a problem and they would have to upgrade their commitments in some sports, but VMI is the most intriguing of this "potential" bunch to me.

JOHNS HOPKINS: They would have to upgrade everything from D-III. For what? Where's their payoff? It doesn't make much sense.

Of course, with the A-10 morphing into the CAA, the whole world of eastern CS (formerly I-AA) football is in flux. The CAA will have 12 football members this fall and is, quite frankly, bordering on unwieldy. Add to this the rise of some "mid-majors" such as Albany and Monmouth, and you have a lot of questions and potential realignments. Should the Patriot League approve football scholarships the mix gets even murkier, but I personally do not believe (as others seemingly do) that this will be a deciding factor in attracting some of the above schools to the fold. Without a crystal ball however, you have to assume that what you see is what you get. Accepting "what is," I reach the following two conclusions:

1. I have never considered Marist as a viable candidate for Patriot League membership. LFN, however, provides some thought provoking - even persuasive - arguments.

2. The Patriot League needs to expand. Maybe it's a defensive move; maybe it's survival; maybe seven is just not a perfect number for a football league; whatever. If not Marist, then who?

PS: It's been a long, long time since anyone has mentioned Duquesne in this thread about Duquesne football.

[Go...gate]

Let's face it, the biggest issue confronting the PL is whether to expand or not and with whom.

[ngineer]

One thing about JHU, though, is their continually top 5 D-I Lacrosse program. Agreed though that they probably don't want to commit such $ to go D-I in everything else.
Once the CAA gets rolling, I think there may be some defections from the northern tier that could provide an opportunity. Richmond is still the best fit..

[Fordham]

A passive move or a defensive move? The current Patriot League football membership of seven is "shaky" in two respects:

...

Let's take a look at the other likely candidates who continue to be mentioned as potential Patriot League members:

RICHMOND: Spider officials gave this move serious consideration two years ago. The reaction of the alumni and other influential groups was just short of ordering in SWAT and demolition teams. It is a virtual certainty that, after getting their hands severely slapped, Richmond officials will not peek down this trail again in the foreseeable future.

VILLANOVA: With their basketball, track, cross country, and other "big time" programs, the Cats are not not reasonable candidates for full membership. In addition, they have no incentive to desert the higher level competition of CAA (formerly A-10) football where they have built some solid rivalries.

WILLIAM & MARY: A state university with strong - and increasing - ties to other state universities in Virginia. In addition, they are very competitive in their current league. If there is incentive for them to consider the Patriot League, I don't see it. In addition, the Towson experience has to be a caution flag for the League getting involved again with a state university.

VMI: Perhaps they would like to affiliate themselves with Army and Navy. They could extricate themselves from a low visibility conference (The Big South) and still retain their rivalry with SoCon Citadel. Geography would be a problem and they would have to upgrade their commitments in some sports, but VMI is the most intriguing of this "potential" bunch to me.

JOHNS HOPKINS: They would have to upgrade everything from D-III. For what? Where's their payoff? It doesn't make much sense.

Of course, with the A-10 morphing into the CAA, the whole world of eastern CS (formerly I-AA) football is in flux. The CAA will have 12 football members this fall and is, quite frankly, bordering on unwieldy. Add to this the rise of some "mid-majors" such as Albany and Monmouth, and you have a lot of questions and potential realignments. Should the Patriot League approve football scholarships the mix gets even murkier, but I personally do not believe (as others seemingly do) that this will be a deciding factor in attracting some of the above schools to the fold. Without a crystal ball however, you have to assume that what you see is what you get. Accepting "what is," I reach the following two conclusions:

1. I have never considered Marist as a viable candidate for Patriot League membership. LFN, however, provides some thought provoking - even persuasive - arguments.

2. The Patriot League needs to expand. Maybe it's a defensive move; maybe it's survival; maybe seven is just not a perfect number for a football league; whatever. If not Marist, then who?

PS: It's been a long, long time since anyone has mentioned Duquesne in this thread about Duquesne football.

Perhaps "defensive" is a better word than "passive" but they both still denote to me a lack of vision or leadership on the part of the conference. The most frustrating aspect of this to me is that I firmly believe that a big effort, both in terms of product and marketing, to become the Athletic Ivies could be incredibly powerful v. the way it is now where they are trying to be 'the next best thing to the Ivies'. Thus, trying to compete at the highest levels of all sports via scholarships, as Bucknell has shown can be done in hoops, is critical. I also think that football schollies is a piece of that, even if it's not as important as doing it in all sports given that we're not competing at the sports' highest level. To me it's important to move to schollies for 3 reasons: 1) we're spending that level of money now (most of us) and should get the appropriate bang for the buck, b) why single football out and treat it differently when other PL sports have gone scholly? and c) the ascension of the NEC schools now that they have moved to scholly ball. This means that doing the same doesn't just mean missing out on an opportunity but actually moving backwards. For that reason, I think that moving to football schollies and then trying to pick up a school that already has PL level academics is more important than finding the all-sport member that is working towards getting to that academic level.

I can tell you from my direct conversations with him that our President loves the PL; however, given the fiasco for our hoops program in the early 90's move to non-scholly PL basketball there is no way he'd step up to that again for a while (think of Richmond's PL football reaction but much stronger from an alum standpoint). The only way I think he'd follow-up on that inclination is if the league shows the kind of commitment to sports, particularly our marquee sport of hoops, where a move back could be justified since it wouldn't be a move backwards in terms of conference ranking, etc., and then you have the bonus of the affiliation across the board with outstanding schools who are also committed to fielding very competitive athletic teams.

In this day and age it really seems a fool's errand to try to break into the upper echelon of college sports "brands" by trying to become the next Stanford, Duke or even Vandy since that's what so many schools are attempting to do. Trying to make that move as a conference, though, is VERY compelling and powerful to me and it's frustrating to see a great opportunity being missed.

Anyway, that's what leads me to prefer trying to pull in a high profile academic school, even if it's as an affiliate for now, while working on the rest of the league 'brand' and then making the push for higher profile full league members when the impact of that strategy-shift/marketing hits. If that's a pipe dream, so be it, but if it is a pipe dream it really makes me question the future of the conference ... or at least it's leadership.

[henfan]

Of course, with the A-10 morphing into the CAA, the whole world of eastern CS (formerly I-AA) football is in flux. The CAA will have 12 football members this fall and is, quite frankly, bordering on unwieldy.

Good analysis, however, the CAA assuming control of A-10 administration will have absolutely no impact whatsoever on movement in the short term. 12 has proven not to be an unwieldy number at all for this conference. In fact, since 1993, the CAA/A-10/Yankee has had at least 11 members and at least half of that time the membership has been at 12. Many of our members don't have the same sort of scheduling problems experienced by many FCS conferences. Size of the league won't likely become an issue until 2011, when the league is scheduled to expand to 13.

There are a few compelling issues that might impact the conference size in the meantime, such as the attractiveness of the NEC to potential members, the formation of an America East league and expansion of the FCS playoffs. Realistically, any big activity is still 5 or so years away, if at all.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Perhaps "defensive" is a better word than "passive" but they both still denote to me a lack of vision or leadership on the part of the conference.

... scholly talk...

In this day and age it really seems a fool's errand to try to break into the upper echelon of college sports "brands" by trying to become the next Stanford, Duke or even Vandy since that's what so many schools are attempting to do. Trying to make that move as a conference, though, is VERY compelling and powerful to me and it's frustrating to see a great opportunity being missed.

Anyway, that's what leads me to prefer trying to pull in a high profile academic school, even if it's as an affiliate for now, while working on the rest of the league 'brand' and then making the push for higher profile full league members when the impact of that strategy-shift/marketing hits. If that's a pipe dream, so be it, but if it is a pipe dream it really makes me question the future of the conference ... or at least it's leadership.

The problem with your vision is you're waiting for a school that simply isn't there. carney broke down the possible schools. Villanova? Richmond? W&M? VMI? Johns Hopkins? At best Villanova (and less likely Richmond) would be there only as affiliates. W&M is no shot. VMI is a possibility, but they're in no rush to leave the Big South for now. Johns Hopkins would be great, but how may cases of roses and chocolates are we going to send to them?

Do you really think Villanova and/or Richmond would leap out of the Big East or A-10 into the Patriot League in all sports with full scholarships? Villanova simply will not. They are a dominating force in Big East basketball and are fresh off a Final Four appearance. Richmond is struggling in the A-10, but all that's needed is for Temple, George Washington, Xavier, or UMass to get a nice run together and they'll be in the money too. Just as I wouldn't expect Fordham to jump from a multi-NCAA bid conference to the single-bid Patriot, I wouldn't expect Richmond to jump either. Maybe someday our whole league will be good enough for multiple bids, but we're not there yet. I also heavily suspect that that's the way Fordham and Richmond like it too, since now there's no restrictions on basketball scholarships in the PL, and they're not exactly beating down our door to battle Bucknell and Holy Cross every year. Duquesne is the same way: they love the money from the A-10 in basketball, while saving money on football by becoming an associate member of the NEC.

I am very pessimistic about Villanova, Richmond, or Fordham for that matter becoming a full-sports member in the PL. VMI and Johns Hopkins are out there, but there's no compelling immediate reason to move - and they don't bring anything in terms of basketball. W&M is a non-starter. That leaves a school like Marist, who wants to be in the Patriot League, is expanding their football stadium, is in a dying basketball (and football) conference, AND has a pretty good scholarship basketball team to boot.

As for the PL leadership, it may have gone through some rocky times, but you can't deny that it's been growing in leaps and bounds, and not just in basketball. In the mid 90s we were a quaint, cute league that would get pulverized by Temple in the 1st round, not to mention our football conference. Now the league gets multiple bids in football and nobody bats an eyelash anymore. Bucknell wins the 8/9 game against an SEC team and people say "I expected that". The brand is good, and getting better. What you say you wish the PL would do is already in action - maybe many years too late to keep Fordham on board, a major tragedy in terms of the health of the league - but nowadays it is in action and working.

[Sir William]

VMI: Perhaps they would like to affiliate themselves with Army and Navy. They could extricate themselves from a low visibility conference (The Big South) and still retain their rivalry with SoCon Citadel. Geography would be a problem and they would have to upgrade their commitments in some sports, but VMI is the most intriguing of this "potential" bunch to me.

This does make sense.

[DFW HOYA]

1. Georgetown is an associate member for football only. Logic says that, at some point, the intelligent people who run the University are going to have to make a decision to get in or get out. In other words, they either need to ramp up their program dramatically to play with the "big kids," or they need to end the misery of their embarrassing ineptitude by either dropping football or taking their show elsewhere. It seems a certainty that the rest of the League is not going to drop to their level. The League in general enjoys having Georgetown and its good name around and will not be moving them to the door, but...

In any event, the League needs to adopt a defensive position because it is not out of the question that Hoya brass will eventually recognize, if this is the case, that they cannot or will not devote the necessary resources to football and that they cannot be competitive without doing so.

I'm afraid your post shows a lack of clarity about Georgetown football, a full seven years after they joined the league.

Georgetown football has never been about "getting in" or "getting out", inasmuch as there is a) no mandate by the Big East office for them to join that conference in football nor b) a mandate by the Pl leadership to fully fund 50+ equivalencies. Given the financial tightrope Georgetown University has walked for the better part of a decade, the fact that it has been able to triple its football budget in the last seven years (from $500K to $1.6M) is nothing short of remarkable, and shows considerable commitment amidst its 26 other sports, which is more of a broad-based program than just about any other PL school.

Facilities issues notwithstanding, no one has expressed the opinion that it's "up or out". You don't hire a Navy assistant and the former defensive coordinator at Marshall just for grins. You don't schedule Yale and Penn because you're just going through the motions. You don't hire the associate AD for football at Notre Dame to be your athletic director to get by. You do it to compete and to win.

As for your use of the phrase "embarassing ineptitude", again, I don't know what team you're watching. Ineptitude amounts to a failure to achieve with comparable resources. A team like Temple, for instance, with 85 scholarships, has been inept against its Eastern brethren with comaprable resources. But even you surely realize that the Hoyas have not been on a level playing field with other PL teams as to depth, though Georgetown has been competitive with Lafayette in recent years, far less so with Lehigh or Colgate. If you have an issue with coaching ineptitude or some sort of tactical failures, I'd like to hear it.

On the other hand, if it's your argument that a defense on the field 36 minutes a game always runs out of steam, or a 240 pound offensive lineman can't seem to open holes for running backs, that's a talent issue, not ineptitude.

This is the first year of recruiting for the new staff (Kevin Kelly wasn't hired until January 2006) so let's see what they can do first. Remember Georgetown isn't always competing with schools in eastern Pennsylvania for kids, but schools that can offer a little bit more of a football experience. Just this past week, it was down to two schools for a major QB prospect from Georgia who passed on an Ivy offer and that said "I liked Georgetown and especially the location, but Air Force will afford me an opportunity to play big-time college football."

Finally, if you think the school will come to some sort of epiphany on football and start spending $4M a year without some kind of revenue stream to support it, well, ask yourself why they would spend more on football than they would on men's basketball.

[FWIW, I'd vote for an offer to VMI and Villanova. Let them keep the scholarships if (and only if) the grant recipients fit the academic index.]

[Andy]

"(putting aside the fact that Georgetown has won two of its last four with Lafayette versus an 0-7 record with your friends at Lehigh"

Lafayette is 5-1 vs GT since 2001....three blowouts, two close wins and the home loss.

[DFW HOYA]

I misplaced that 2-2 record with Bucknell instead. It's been corrected.

[carney2]

I'm afraid your post shows a lack of clarity about Georgetown football, a full seven years after they joined the league.


DFW, old friend, I expected to hear from you; I wanted to hear from you; I needed to hear from you. In fact, as I was banging away on my Georgetown paragraph in this thread, I had a mental picture of you with pen in hand, aiming it at my heart. Don't get me wrong, I didn't create those words just to get smoke pouring from your ears. I did expect a reasoned and reasonable response (defense?) however, because that is who you are. You are one of the half dozen or so people on this board whose posts I read even when I am not particularly interested in the topic. We have however, reached yet another point where we must agree to disagree.

You say that my "post shows a lack of clarity about Georgetown football." Au contraire, mon ami, the air is clear and my vision is 20/20. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding, and this delicacy is proving to be particularly flavorless and unappetizing. After six years of Patriot League membership the average finish position has been 6.5 in a 7 - and in the early years, 8 - team league. I see the Hoyas at least once each year and note no progress. The Hoya footballers are not getting any bigger, faster, or more athletic. Those few who do appear to have Patriot League skills stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. In short, the results are not encouraging - and not improving.

Of particular interest is your contention that my use of the word "ineptitude" is incorrect when applying it to Georgetown football because ineptitude should be defined as "failure to achieve with comparable resources." Since, as you say

Georgetown does not have football resources comparable with most of the Patriot League, and certainly not with those in the upper tier,
and
Georgetown sees no reason to devote the necessary resources to football without a payoff ("why would [we] spend more on football than on men's basketball"),
then
ipso facto, Georgetown football is not inept.

My interpretation of your statements is that mediocrity r us; that's who we are; that is all we can be in this field of endeavor; and we are quite content with it. I find it hard to believe - and this is the heart and soul of my previous words about Georgetown - that a national university renowned for its excellence in almost everything that it undertakes, will be long content with the current state of its football program. You point to some reasons for hope such as Coach Kelly. Frankly, I need to see something on Saturday afternoons in the fall.

[JoltinJoe]

The Patriot League's problem is that, at its core, there are really only four schools that completely fit the PL model: Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and Bucknell.

When the PL started as an all-sports conference, its members were the four schools identified above, Holy Cross and Fordham. Army was also an original member but did not play football in the PL.

Holy Cross and Fordham joined for all sports but not as eagerly as the four core members. At Holy Cross, the college president wanted the PL and prevailed over some board members and alumni who were against the move. At Fordham, everyone wanted to play PL football but many administrators and alumni had reservations about an all-sports association.

Holy Cross and Fordham are Catholic schools and among the best Catholic schools in the country. Unlike many of the best secular schools (which often are indifferent to big-time athletics), the best Catholic colleges have a history of participating in big-time sports, originally in football but trending toward basketball in the later part of the 20th century. It is part of the social aspect of life at a Catholic college: a big-time game on campus.

Students coming out of Catholic high schools are used to athletics being a large part of the social fabric of their schools. On the other hand, many prep school students who favor top secular colleges often do not have that experience as part of their social life and often do not seek it as part of their college experience. To effectively recruit from the Catholic high schools and prep schools, Catholic colleges like to offer the same type of social experiences that Catholic students are used to.

So there was, in my opinion, a divide at the formation of the Patriot League between the four all-sports members who were completely comfortable with the PL model and its two all-sports Catholic members who were not completely comfortable with the PL model.

At Fordham, an alumni insurrection forced the administration's hand to go back to scholarship basketball. But the years of non-scholarship ball took a toll and the program has only recently begun to make some noise at the scholarship level. Holy Cross has kept its angry alumni at bay but they are still out there.

Anyway, the point of all this is that Catholic colleges, even the best Catholic colleges, have always been willing, at least to some extent, to admit a student who comes no where near ordinary admissions standards if that student possessed superior athletic talent. And that runs contrary to one of the fundamental precepts infusing the creation of the Patriot League.

[Salty Dog]

Nobody talks about what a great school Iona is. Iona has a major commitment to Football. Ask the AD, Pat Lyons.
(1) Iona has raised major contributions the last 5 years. It has added a new state of the art athletic facility.
(2) They beat Duquesne last year and gave Marist all they could handle.
(3) They probably have the toughest 2007 schedule of any team in the MAAC, Northeast or Pioneer conf. They play Cal Poly and New Hampshire away. They were both top 10 teams last year and they are ranked at the top this year.
(4) The MAAC is a strong conference in most sports (especially Basketball) just not in Football.
(5) Iona's Basketball team won the MAAC last year and almost beat LSU in the first round of NCAA Tournement. They are having their worst year this year however.
(6) The Princeton 2007 review listed Iona as one of the northeast school on the fastest raise.
I think Iona, St. Peters, Marist, Duquesne, Robert Morris, Sacred Heart, St. Francis and Wagner should form a Football conference. They are very much alike in size, academics and budgets. Travel would be easy. They would be very competive. The new conference would help all teams in recruiting. Joining the MAAC would be easy because most of the schools have 1 or 2 sports program the MACC already.
Please give Iona a little respect.
Salty Dog

[BobbyMo]

I think Iona, St. Peters, Marist, Duquesne, Robert Morris, Sacred Heart, St. Francis and Wagner should form a Football conference. They are very much alike in size, academics and budgets. Travel would be easy. They would be very competive. The new conference would help all teams in recruiting. Joining the MAAC would be easy because most of the schools have 1 or 2 sports program the MACC already.
Please give Iona a little respect.
Salty Dog

I have respect for Iona and their 2007 sched., I do not think that RMU would leave the NEC in football as long as the NEC has football. The only sports that i can think of that are not in NEC are the ice hockey teams, and the mens lacrosse team. The nec does not have these sports.

I like the list of your schools, and agree that it would be a nice conference.

I would like to see Iona, Marist and Dayton added to RMU's football conference, whatever name that conference may take in the future.(along with the NEC teams that are currently in the conference)

We have played Dayton a number of times (not with much luck however), and while it maybe one sided, I think a rivalry is growing with them.

[carney2]

The Patriot League's problem is that, at its core, there are really only four schools that completely fit the PL model: Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and Bucknell.

There ya go. Talk about hitting a nail on the head. These four are joined at the hip and will always have trouble finding number five (and six, and seven,...) to join them in jousting at their windmills.

[rmutv]

The problem with a lot of these conference realignments - and I say this as someone who got torn to pieces after proposing a massive one a few months ago - is that they don't take into account the other sports.

As BobbyMo said, the thing with the NEC is that it is a full conference for other sports. Only Albany and now Duquesne are associate members for football.

If Albany leaves, it doesn't impact the NEC that much. But if Monmouth/CCSU leave, it'll be a question of whether just football leaves or whether other sports leave as well.

[mainejeff]

The problem with a lot of these conference realignments - and I say this as someone who got torn to pieces after proposing a massive one a few months ago - is that they don't take into account the other sports.

As BobbyMo said, the thing with the NEC is that it is a full conference for other sports. Only Albany and now Duquesne are associate members for football.

If Albany leaves, it doesn't impact the NEC that much. But if Monmouth/CCSU leave, it'll be a question of whether just football leaves or whether other sports leave as well.

Albany will definitely be leaving eventually. Monmouth/CCSU may leave for all sports if Plan A doesn't work out in AE.......they would be Plan B.

[Go...gate]

There ya go. Talk about hitting a nail on the head. These four are joined at the hip and will always have trouble finding number five (and six, and seven,...) to join them in jousting at their windmills.

Absolutely correct, which is why many alumni from these schools still think Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh (and perhaps Army and Navy) should seek membership in the Ivy League, a very unlikely proposition.

At the same time, it is also a fool's errand to continue to hope that Villanova, W&M or Richmond will want to be in the PL. The idea of W&M and Richmond joining sailed long ago and Villanova's administration, which considers itself academically superior to any institution in the present PL (dream on) looks down on us.

IMHO, it is down to Hopkins or VMI (I also wish Gettysburg had some interest, but that has been a non-starter from their point of view). Long-shots would be Marist and Monmouth, but they both need to stretch their academic profiles.

[BobbyMo]

Just a guess, but I can see CCSU leaving before Monmouth. I really base that on them be a public school more than anything else. I would really hate for any of them to leave. I just hope the NEC will keep ramping up schollys to keep the "big boys" from leaving.

[carney2]

Absolutely correct, which is why many alumni from these schools still think Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh (and perhaps Army and Navy) should seek membership in the Ivy League, a very unlikely proposition.

At the same time, it is also a fool's errand to continue to hope that Villanova, W&M or Richmond will want to be in the PL. The idea of W&M and Richmond joining sailed long ago and Villanova's administration, which considers itself academically superior to any institution in the present PL (dream on) looks down on us.

IMHO, it is down to Hopkins or VMI (I also wish Gettysburg had some interest, but that has been a non-starter from their point of view). Long-shots would be Marist and Monmouth, but they both need to stretch their academic profiles.

Nice post. My response:

There is as much chance of there being a 9th Ivy League school in my lifetime as there is for me becoming a native born eskimo. Colgate spent 30 years doing everything short of lighting themselves on fire in Harvard Yard to be noticed and most of the Ivy folks still think of them as toothpaste.

The Patriot League is in some trouble. They need to expand, but the possibilities appear to be few and far between. Looking at the possibilities and assigning probabilities based on when it could happen, rather than 1 in 5 or 1 in 10:

MARIST: It's now or never for these guys. Their MAAC world is crumbling around them. They need to do something sooner, rather than later. Since I don't believe that the PL would ever grant them an associate membership for football only, it's
Full Membership: 2-3 years or never
Football Only: Never.

VMI: Still the most intriguing of this bunch in my mind.
Full Membership: 5 years
Football only: 5 years, but I hope it doesn't come to this

RICHMOND: You have to believe that they have no interest at the moment.
Full Membership: 10 years
Football Only: 10 years, but it really should not come to this.

VILLANOVA: All that you say about Nova is true. It sticks in their craw that they are not still playing football at the BS (formerly I-A) level - or, more precisely, that they have an athletic program that is not being contested at the highest level that the NCAA provides - and they have an inflated opinion of their academic profile.
Full Membership: Never.
Football Only: 25 years (in other words, improbable, but not impossible)

JOHNS HOPKINS: If Hopkins, then can Amherst and Bowdoin and Williams and... be far behind? Dream on. Some people are reading far too much into the fact that Hopkins contests lacrosse at the D-I level.
Full Membership: It won't be when hell freezes over, but there will be a lot of snow on the ground.
Football Only: Never.

WILLIAM & MARY: Never! NEVER!! N E V E R!!!
Full Membership: Never.
Football Only: Never.

One more time: these are not predictions of when, but rather my way of assessing probabilities. With the possible exception of Northeastern or maybe Hofstra in the event of a CAA breakup, there is no one else on my radar screen except for some possible retreads such as Fordham for full membership (a basketball decision as far as Fordham is concerned, and they seem content where they are) and Davidson (they didn't like the travel and they didn't like football at the PL level when they were a member, and I don't see how any of that has changed). Any other suggestions?

[Fordham]

Pretty depressing read carney (but accurate imo). Three things:

1. About the only thing I take issue with is your timeline for Richmond & 'Nova as football affiliates. The great Eastern (Northeastern?) shakeout (American East? Add'l CAA football teams like ODU? NEC schools looking for conferences and willing to go all-sport?) is approaching and these CAA-affiliates clearly see the risk for their teams on the horizon. If the PL would finally make the easy shift to scholarship football there is no reason that this couldn't occur sooner given that shake-out. If that uncertainty didn't exist I agree with those timelines but if they're going to want to solidify their conference position, what conference alternative is better for them than a PL with scholarship football? From what I've heard as well (and that gets you what?), the 'Nova administration isn't anti-PL for football at all (Talley may be another story) ... they're just not going to make a move that would be perceived as a major step down b/c of the elimination of scholarships (as Richmond perceived it as well). Given their hoops' team, though, I absolutely agree that they are not a likely all-sport candidate.

2. I may be the lone poster who feels this way but I would just much prefer that the league pieces together the best short term fits while making aggressive moves to increase the level of play and marketing done on behalf of the league to become the Athletic Ivies. Once that occurs i believe the league will have a much more compelling all-sport pool of candidates (attractiveness of league membership will rise AND you let further shakeout of major and mid-major conferences occur possibly throwing into flux the all sport affiliations of schools like Richmond ... and possibly dear alma mater).

I think LFN and I are just going to disagree with the PL leadership's performance on this ... and it admittedly may be overly harsh since the leadership can only do what the individual members tell it to ... but I just don't see the great job they have done to capitilize on the potential the league has to become an athletic alternative to the Ivies v. simply the next best thing to them. What I view as successes that they've had in terms of performance have come only because individual members have forced the change down their throats (e.g. - HC's 'give hoops schollies or we're leaving' ultimatum that led to Bucknell's hoops run) as opposed to the league having great vision or a great plan. At the same time they have been complacent in football while various mid-majors have developed a plan, worked it and now are moving past the PL in terms of competitiveness. Again, imo, there is such tremendous opportunity here to fill a new space in the market's mind (elite academic conference that also competes with the best athletically) and it's just being wasted.

3. For nothing more than giggles, I'll say that I think it would be very fun to have a PL that consists of about 2 schools per market so natural rivalries are developed AND travel costs can be cut down. Thus, your mention of Northeastern and Hofstra is very interesting imo as you'd be giving HC and Fordham natural rivals to complement the Lehigh-Lafayette one (don't worry, I'm not putting them on par with your battle) and if you add Richmond to the mix you have one for G-town and can let the Colgate - Bucknell one further develop as well. Ah, but to dream...

[Pard4Life]

Absolutely correct, which is why many alumni from these schools still think Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh (and perhaps Army and Navy) should seek membership in the Ivy League, a very unlikely proposition.

At the same time, it is also a fool's errand to continue to hope that Villanova, W&M or Richmond will want to be in the PL. The idea of W&M and Richmond joining sailed long ago and Villanova's administration, which considers itself academically superior to any institution in the present PL (dream on) looks down on us.

IMHO, it is down to Hopkins or VMI (I also wish Gettysburg had some interest, but that has been a non-starter from their point of view). Long-shots would be Marist and Monmouth, but they both need to stretch their academic profiles.

Lafayette and Lehigh were very close to joining the Ivy League in the 1890s. The Pards ended that when one of our ejected players on the sideline tripped Penn's RB on a run to the endzone.. inciting a brawl at March Field... Laf and Penn didn't play for a few years and that ended our Ivy hopes..

Lehigh was beating Weslyan (Ivy at the time) and would likely have been in with a win. But, Woodrow Wilson rallied the Weslyan crowd for his hate of Lehigh and Weslyan won the game.. Lehigh lost their Ivy hopes there...

...at least ours has more bang to it! :rotateh:

[Fordham]

that's a shame pard.

our Ivy hopes likely ended when we played Hahvad in a baseball game with the loser having to change school colors since they were identical back then. Fordham won, Hahvad reneged and we decided to have nothing to do with them ever since ( :D ).

[boo]

Long-shots would be Marist and Monmouth, but they both need to stretch their academic profiles.

Marist has been working hard to up their academic reputation. Wouldn't a move to the high rent district help improve that? I'm thinking it could be a chicken or egg first question. For an institution that is improving, PL membership could help to further improve the academic profile. Is that possible? If so, wouldn't that be a win/win for both parties?

~~Boo

[carney2]

Lafayette... [was] very close to joining the Ivy League in the 1890s.

Actually, much later than the 1890s. Word is that the Ivy fathers had a membership invitation prepared, and even a stamp on the envelope. They then found out that Lafayette had admitted me and the rest, as they say, is history.

[Go...gate]

Lafayette and Lehigh were very close to joining the Ivy League in the 1890s. The Pards ended that when one of our ejected players on the sideline tripped Penn's RB on a run to the endzone.. inciting a brawl at March Field... Laf and Penn didn't play for a few years and that ended our Ivy hopes..

Lehigh was beating Weslyan (Ivy at the time) and would likely have been in with a win. But, Woodrow Wilson rallied the Weslyan crowd for his hate of Lehigh and Weslyan won the game.. Lehigh lost their Ivy hopes there...

...at least ours has more bang to it! :rotateh:

????????? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Go...gate]

Marist has been working hard to up their academic reputation. Wouldn't a move to the high rent district help improve that? I'm thinking it could be a chicken or egg first question. For an institution that is improving, PL membership could help to further improve the academic profile. Is that possible? If so, wouldn't that be a win/win for both parties?

~~Boo

It is a good point. American has leveraged their PL membership in part of its capital campaign to raise its endowment, improve its facilities and strengthen its academic profile. Marist (or Monmouth) could do the same thing.

[Fordham]

Marist has been working hard to up their academic reputation. Wouldn't a move to the high rent district help improve that? I'm thinking it could be a chicken or egg first question. For an institution that is improving, PL membership could help to further improve the academic profile. Is that possible? If so, wouldn't that be a win/win for both parties?

~~Boo

I'll make an equally broad brush argument back. Marist wants to join the current PL but adding them will lower the average AI or whatever other academic measurement you'd like to use, thus hurting the current PL by reducing its aggregate overall academic rankings ... AND therefore making it a less attractive option for Marist in the process (the Groucho Marx argument for Marist not joining). A lose/lose for both.

your (or my) argument actually works with every school that has an AI lower than any current PL schools, right? That's not too compelling a reason imo.

For the record I don't buy either analysis overall.

[Pard4Life]

????????? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Yes, the story is true.. read it somewhere.. either in the Laf-Lehigh book or 100-years of Laf football..

[DFW HOYA]

Lafayette and Lehigh were very close to joining the Ivy League in the 1890s... Laf and Penn didn't play for a few years and that ended our Ivy hopes..

The "Ivy League" wasn't even a concept until 1936, and didn't actually form until the late 1940's or early 1950's, depending on the source. Penn, for one, played scholarship football into the early 1950's.

[LBPop]

You point to some reasons for hope such as Coach Kelly. Frankly, I need to see something on Saturday afternoons in the fall.

While I repect and appreciate our friend DFW greatly, I have never bought into money as being the major reason that Georgetown has done poorly vs. Patriot League competition. Carney, you are absolutely right...until the Hoyas do it on the field, the rest of the league will not take the football team seriously. No excuses are acceptable.

Given my perspective as a Dad who had gotten to know Coach Benson fairly well, and who has gotten to know Coach Kelly and the AD, Bernard Muir even better, I am optimistic. In my opinion, these men are talented and personally committed to improving the program. I can tell you that the recruiting is at a much higher level and while the facilities are poor, little things like much newer and classier uniforms are in the offing. I am disappointed that I will only be a Georgetown football Dad for one more season, but I will be a fan for many more years. I expect the Hoyas under the watch of these two men to put up a winning record within two years. That's enough time. If we see two more 2 to 4 win seasons, then I would agree that we should look for something more inherent to the University as the reason.

My optimism is not without reasons. Last season's freshman class put together on the fly yielded several major contributors including a few starters by year end. One was the Rookie of the Year while not starting at RB until midway through the season. Last season the Hoyas started fall practice uncertain about QB #1 and RB #1. This season that's not an issue unless Coach Kelly finds another remarkable freshman or two. LBKid and his fellow seniors have bought into Coach Kelly completely. I don't expect a PL Championship, but I do expect a couple of eye-opening upsets. But I repeat...no excuses--they're getting a little old for me (and I'm pretty old :D ).

[Pard4Life]

The "Ivy League" wasn't even a concept until 1936, and didn't actually form until the late 1940's or early 1950's, depending on the source. Penn, for one, played scholarship football into the early 1950's.

Yes and no... the Ivy schools.. bunched together as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn etc.. were aligned at least athletically way back when. Even the archiac football standings have these schools clumped together. The Ivy League arose as a result of the football and athletic connections. Army and Navy were initially in that bunch.

[carney2]

Given my perspective as a Dad who had gotten to know Coach Benson fairly well, and who has gotten to know Coach Kelly and the AD, Bernard Muir even better, I am optimistic. In my opinion, these men are talented and personally committed to improving the program. I can tell you that the recruiting is at a much higher level and while the facilities are poor, little things like much newer and classier uniforms are in the offing. I am disappointed that I will only be a Georgetown football Dad for one more season, but I will be a fan for many more years. I expect the Hoyas under the watch of these two men to put up a winning record within two years. That's enough time. If we see two more 2 to 4 win seasons, then I would agree that we should look for something more inherent to the University as the reason.

My optimism is not without reasons. Last season's freshman class put together on the fly yielded several major contributors including a few starters by year end. One was the Rookie of the Year while not starting at RB until midway through the season. Last season the Hoyas started fall practice uncertain about QB #1 and RB #1. This season that's not an issue unless Coach Kelly finds another remarkable freshman or two. LBKid and his fellow seniors have bought into Coach Kelly completely. I don't expect a PL Championship, but I do expect a couple of eye-opening upsets. But I repeat...no excuses--they're getting a little old for me (and I'm pretty old :D ).

I hope you're right - although I would like to be able to pick and choose those "eye-opening upsets." At this point I think that the Patriot League needs Georgetown more than Georgetown needs the Patriot League.

Oh yeah, the new uniforms are long overdue.

[Go...gate]

Colgate just announced that its ESPN Bracket Buster game will be against Marist (which will be a very tough one for Colgate, as the Red Foxes have a fine BB team this year). Maybe a coincidence, but it seems to me that the PL-Marist link may be under review by the powers that be.....