Samford looks like a likely addition to SoCon

[ncguitarplyr]

--Samford and SoCon? - SoCon officials, including commissioner John Iamarino, were in Birmingham, Ala., on Thursday visiting the campus of Samford University in what could be a prelude to an invitation to Samford to leave the Ohio Valley and join the SoCon. Samford would provide a 12th basketball team and a ninth football team, relieving scheduling problems in both sports. Samford would become the fifth private school in the league, joining Furman, Wofford, Elon and Davidson. We can only surmise that this means the SoCon prefers Samford over another potential member, Coastal Carolina of the Big South.
http://www.charleston.net/assets/webPages/departmental/news/Stories.aspx?section=sports&tableId=127045&pubDate=1/19/2007

[yoself09]

I would take Coastal over them
It’s another excuse to spend a weekend in Myrtle Beach
:cool:

[OL FU]

:eyebrow: :eyebrow:

Good basketball and baseball addition.

Do they play football:eyebrow: :D

[AppGuy04]

Why not add both them and Coastal and split divisions, easier for scheduling

[tsutiger]

why is the SoCon so hot for Samford?

[OL FU]

why is the SoCon so hot for Samford?

The small and the private want another small and private to keep the equilibrium between the small and the large:nod:

[BigApp]

I'm so excited about Samford joining that I need a nap.

[Coastal89]

:eyebrow: :eyebrow:

Good basketball and baseball addition.

Do they play football:eyebrow: :D
Looks like they won't make winning the SOCON any more difficult for Furman.

[Cocky]

If Samford goes to the SOCON look for Jacksonville State to move on to the Bowl Subdivision.

[MarkCCU]

Have the SOCON officials taken the same interest in Coastal? Have they visited the campus and so on and so forth?

[Mountaineer]

Samford = Meh xidiotx :bawling:

Would much rather have Coastal. :nod:

Even more fodder for ChickenMan! :p xlolx

[jmuroller]

I've heard that Coastal's president has rubbed the SoCon's president's the wrong way. This is making the SoCon overlook Coastal for Samford. Don't look for Coastal to be added to the SoCon anytime soon.

[youwouldno]

CCU is getting a new President though, right?

[asufan87]

Coastal isn't getting looks because some Socon schools are scared to share the stage with a program that has more momentum and potential. I'd take Coastal over Samford in a second.

[MplsBison]

If Samford goes to the SOCON look for Jacksonville State to move on to the Bowl Subdivision.

JSU had 5700 full time undergrads (3200 female) and a 7 million athletic budget last school year.


No offense, but that doesn't seem like a FBS school.


For comparison:

Troy had nearly 19k full time undergrades (10k female) and a 12 million budget.


UAB had 11k FTU (7k female) and an 18 million athletic budget.

[The Cats]

http://www.al.com/sports/birminghamnews/mperrin.ssf?/base/sports/1168942621185860.xml&coll=2&thispage=1

Samford should shy away from SoCon's advances

Tuesday, January 16, 2007

The wooing of Samford University athletics officially begins Thursday.

The question is how easily can Samford be swayed? Can the prospect of entering that exclusive Southern Conference club be spurned?

Don't get all giddy, Samford. Just say no.

A group of Southern Conference officials, including Commissioner John Iamarino, will visit the Samford campus to talk with President Andrew Westmoreland and others involved in athletics decision-making.

Samford and SoCon folks say the visit is preliminary work where each can feel out the other about a possible marriage down the road. It's fairly apparent, though, that if the Southern Conference weren't serious about plucking Samford away from the Ohio Valley this group wouldn't be stopping by.

Samford Athletics Director Bob Roller says the SoCon initiated this flirtation and no invitation is assured. Last year, the OVC did the same with Tennessee-Chattanooga.

UTC decided to stay put and word around both leagues was the Southern Conference made assurances it would try to find a new member close to Chattanooga to serve as a travel partner. Samford should do what's best for Samford - not what makes Chattanooga and the Southern Conference feel better.

The SoCon had its chance to invite Samford before the Bulldogs joined the OVC.

Roller could barely get a call-back then, although it was before Iamarino was with the league.

The financial commitment to get into the Spartanburg, S.C., based conference is substantial. Even with four other private schools in the SoCon, Samford's athletics budget would be closer to the bottom than the top.

There's no way to predict what Sullivan and his staff will do in the short-term, but it's not going out on a limb to say for the next couple of years the Bulldogs have a better shot at the playoffs going through the Ohio Valley.

Jimmy Tillette and women's coach Mike Morris are close to breaking into the NCAA basketball tournaments as well.

Iamarino and Roller agree that there are two main points that make the SoCon attractive. The Southern Conference has an awesome tradition, built by being the fifth-oldest athletic league in Division I. All the schools currently in the Southeastern Conference, except Arkansas, were once members of the SoCon.

Secondly, those four private schools in the Southern Conference - Elon, Furman, Wofford and Davidson, plus state-supported The Citadel that operates much like a private school - are closer in their academic mission to Samford.

Point of pride:

Samford is on an island as the only private school in the OVC. In some ways, mostly in recruiting, this is a disadvantage. However, the tougher academic requirements should also be a point of pride for Samford and the league.

OVC Commissioner Jon Steinbrecher said after Samford evaluates what it hears from the SoCon, he will counter with what his league can do. One action item on the agenda should be making changes in football and basketball scheduling to accommodate the OVC's two Alabama members.

Rivals Samford and Jacksonville State should always end their football seasons with their version of the Iron Bowl. The basketball schedule adopted for next season has Samford finishing at Eastern Illinois - the farthest outpost from Alabama - on Saturday night with the tournament opening the following Tuesday. Definitely not ideal.

The OVC should get aggressive in adding a member or two, too, like East Tennessee State if it brings back football and West Georgia if it jumps from DivisionII.

Down the road, if Samford wants to try the SoCon, maybe there will be better reasons than status. News staff writer Mike Perrin covers state colleges. Write him at [email protected].

AND I COULD NOT AGREE MORE, SAMFORD DON'T JOIN SOCON.

[FURMANFAN]

Coastal isn't getting looks because some Socon schools are scared to share the stage with a program that has more momentum and potential. I'd take Coastal over Samford in a second.

I was wondering why App voted against Coastal. Seems they also voted for Samford.

[whoanellie]

U of Chatt needs a travel partner and closer neighbors to make the conference balanced with additional schools that can play football ......

[asufan87]

I was wondering why App voted against Coastal. Seems they also voted for Samford.

I'm just thinking in terms of what's best for the conference as a whole over the long term and to me that means bringing in the schools that have the best likelihood of 1) being competitive in all sports over the long haul, 2) attracting a strong fan following, and 3) bringing the most positive attention to itself and other member institutions.

I still don't understand the fascination with Samford. It's not a public/private thing. Even if they were a public school, I just have a hard time seeing how they fit Nos 1,2, and 3 above.

[Cocky]

JSU had 5700 full time undergrads (3200 female) and a 7 million athletic budget last school year.


No offense, but that doesn't seem like a FBS school.


For comparison:

Troy had nearly 19k full time undergrades (10k female) and a 12 million budget.


UAB had 11k FTU (7k female) and an 18 million athletic budget.

JSU has around 10,000 full time students on the main campus and has the money to add if they desire. Troy only has about 5,000 on the main campus the rest are from mostly overseas branches.

I do agree we will be running with the Troys and Middle Tenn of the world but I don't get a vote. The Samford move will leave us on an island in the CS world. The other schools are not playoff school (SWAC). And Troy has been pushing our BOT to move up and join them.

JSU can match butts in the seats with UAB or Troy.

[gophoenix]

A Greensboro sports writer told me to look for Samford in 2008 and Coastal/ETSU in 2009/2010 time frame.

If schools are so afraid of Coastal and competition, then why were the only votes against them by Wofford, Furman and App?

And if this is such a public vs private debate, then why is App for Samford and against Coastal?

These are serious questions, not smack in the form of a question.

[Col Hogan]

JSU had 5700 full time undergrads (3200 female) and a 7 million athletic budget last school year.

What does undergrad enrollment have to do with being FBS? Wake Forest has less than 4500 undergrads, and does fine. It's $$ and committment and most important, a good conference. If JSU can raise the bucks, good for them. I don't doubt they will get the committment from alums, but its the conference that makes a difference....:twocents:

[Mr. C]

A Greensboro sports writer told me to look for Samford in 2008 and Coastal/ETSU in 2009/2010 time frame.

If schools are so afraid of Coastal and competition, then why were the only votes against them by Wofford, Furman and App?

And if this is such a public vs private debate, then why is App for Samford and against Coastal?

These are serious questions, not smack in the form of a question.
I doubt that the Greensboro sports writer had any inside knowledge on anything SoCon related. The News & Record doesn't have much SoCon coverage on any sport (I know, I occasional write for them). The SoCon has taken several years to consider expansion and I seriously doubt they will add anyone else in the near future, unless there are some big changes with teams leaving, or the conference deciding to add two or more additional teams.

I will say that a highly-placed SoCon official told me on Monday that there probably wouldn't be anything major standing in the way of East Tennessee State reentering the league. There are several schools that would be extremely supportive of ETSU returning.

Coastal Carolina, though it has been interested, really hasn't been all that seriously considered and doesn't have support to get in at this time.

[gophoenix]

Mr. C, I didn't say the sports writer wrote for the News & Record :)

[FURMANFAN]

If schools are so afraid of Coastal and competition, then why were the only votes against them by Wofford, Furman and App?


My undestanding is that it was more like only two or three for Coastal. If Elon is one of them I don't know, but I've been told that Georgia Southern was the only football school to support Coastal and that support was tepid.

[gophoenix]

My undestanding is that it was more like only two or three for Coastal. If Elon is one of them I don't know, but I've been told that Georgia Southern was the only football school to support Coastal and that support was tepid.

What I had heard was that there was 1 or 2 schools for Coastal, 3 against and the rest that could swing either way depending on the sentiment of the other schools.

[MplsBison]

JSU has around 10,000 full time students on the main campus and has the money to add if they desire. Troy only has about 5,000 on the main campus the rest are from mostly overseas branches.

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

It says 19k full time undergrads.


JSU can match butts in the seats with UAB or Troy.

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/Internet/attendance/IA_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

Troy averaged 20.8k and UAB averaged 23.1k.

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/Internet/attendance/IA_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

JSU averaged 10.4k.

You're going to double your average attendance?

[MplsBison]

What does undergrad enrollment have to do with being FBS?

Nothing directly. It's just used for title IX reasons.


But usually, for a public school, being FBS means you have a rather large enrollment.

[Cocky]

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

It says 19k full time undergrads.



http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/Internet/attendance/IA_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

Troy averaged 20.8k and UAB averaged 23.1k.

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/Internet/attendance/IA_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

JSU averaged 10.4k.

You're going to double your average attendance?

This is like comparing apples and oranges. If you research the numbers you will realize that Troy combines all campuses as one. Most other university systems do not do this. I'm not sure what JSU's total would be if all where combined. Our total would be less than the 19K figure. If you compare main campus to main campus the 10K and 5K numbers will be very close. I feel sure if I look up the enrollment for NDSU the number will be for the main campus only.

Both Troy and UAB attendance figures are for tickets sold. Both converted to this type of attendance records when the NCAA changed the requirements. JSU still uses the butts in the seat method. I doubt you have been to a game at either Troy or a UAB game at Legion Field but very rarely do they surpass 20K in actual attendance. Troy's case maybe 1 or 2 times ever while UAB will do it once a year. If JSU changed to the tickets sold method yes we would double our attendance but the amount of people at the game would not double.

I personally could careless if we move or not, but if Samford moves our BOT will look strongly at moving. I will support my university in whichever division or subdivision we play. If we go to BS ball we will be bottom dwellers but the way we have played in CS ball the last two years we will feel at home.

[citdog]

Hey J-State try getting in the top 15 of FCS attendance before you talkof going to the Bowl Division! Samford to the SoCon? We have to have that HQ moved out of Spartanburg because if we don't we will have all private schools who play in front of 3500 fans. ie: woffy, elon,

[MplsBison]

Troy combines all campuses as one.

Ok. Troy has a campus in Dothan, Montgomery, and Phenix City.

I thought 19k sounded high.


I'm not sure what JSU's total would be if all where combined.

JSU only has one campus.



Both Troy and UAB attendance figures are for tickets sold. Both converted to this type of attendance records when the NCAA changed the requirements. JSU still uses the butts in the seat method.

Ok.



If JSU changed to the tickets sold method yes we would double our attendance

Maybe. You'd need 15k at least.

[Cocky]

Ok. Troy has a campus in Dothan, Montgomery, and Phenix City.

I thought 19k sounded high.



JSU only has one campus.




Ok.




Maybe. You'd need 15k at least.

Troy has about 50 or 60 campuses JSU has 3 or 4.

[Cocky]

Hey J-State try getting in the top 15 of FCS attendance before you talkof going to the Bowl Division! Samford to the SoCon? We have to have that HQ moved out of Spartanburg because if we don't we will have all private schools who play in front of 3500 fans. ie: woffy, elon,
Attendance has very little to do with the BOT's decisions. Ego has much more to do with our BOTs decisions.

Anyways WKU is about the same as us in attendance as was Troy when they moved. There are probably several others that have moved while not being in the top 15 in attendance.

[gophoenix]

We have to have that HQ moved out of Spartanburg because if we don't we will have all private schools who play in front of 3500 fans. ie: woffy, elon,

So we had crappy attendance for one game, give it up citdog. And if you're going to knock private schools, maybe you'd first get your administration to run The Citadel like a public school (ie like App, Western or GSU).

App 20546/gm #3
GSU 15916/gm #8
Cit 14599/gm #12
FU 12442/gm #20
WCU 8805/gm #42
Woff 8334/gm #45
UTC 7482/gm #52
Elon 6671/gm #60

And yes, 6671 is a down year for us. And our game with you killed our average for the year. Maybe if you guys actually brought some fans?!?

But if you're going to knock on private schools, let's look at some public schools.

Tenn Tech 5035
Tn Martin 4118
Austin Peay 3193
E Ill 6448
N Arizona 6608
SE La 5961
Texas Southern 5696
Sac St 5821
S Utah 5222
Maine 5208
Stony Brook 4336
Rhode Island 3171
CCSU 3150

It has nothing to do with being small or private.

[catdaddy2402]

Troy has about 50 or 60 campuses JSU has 3 or 4.

Troy has campuses on/near a lot of military bases right? I know there's one in Augusta, GA (Fort Gordon) and at Shaw AFB in Sumter, SC.

[citdog]

Gophoenix have you ever been to a game at Wofford? 8800+ a game? Yeah, sure. I have been to games there that if there were more than 4000 people I am a Yankee.

The Citadel is a State Supported Institution. Period. Please tell me how we are run like anything but what we are.

[Cocky]

Troy has campuses on/near a lot of military bases right? I know there's one in Augusta, GA (Fort Gordon) and at Shaw AFB in Sumter, SC.


Yes, their campuses are all over the world mostly at military bases.

[Saint3333]

I'm on record for JSU as my #1 option for expansion, but oh well.

If that many SoCon schools are so against CCU, maybe the SoCon could add JSU and ETSU a couple years down the road and extend the "footprint" of the SoCon.

[MarkCCU]

Troy has campuses on/near a lot of military bases right? I know there's one in Augusta, GA (Fort Gordon) and at Shaw AFB in Sumter, SC.

Troy is advertising one here in Charleston

[ButlerGSU]

Troy is advertising one here in Charleston

They also have a 'virtual' campus online. I believe they count these students as well.

[JaxSinfonian]

Point #1) Troy's enrollment numbers are meaningless. There's something like 5,000 to 6,000 students attending classes in Troy, Ala. (the on-campus undergrad number would be lower than that, even). The rest are scattered around the world (I was once at Camp Doha in sunny Kuwait and was disgusted as all get out to see a TSU sticker on a Jeep Cherokee with Kuwait plates). Do those students have any interest at all in the main campus' sports programs? I have no idea, but I'd guess likely not. However they do pay tuition, and if that money finds its way back to "the ugliest village on the plains" I imagine it positions the school well to spend whatever it wants on athletics.

Point #2) JSU currently enrolls about 9,000 students, total headcount. The on-campus undergrad number of 5,700 cited above is about right. A lot of the growth lately is in graduate programs for educators and a specialized on-line masters program for emergency management officials.

Point #3) Game attendance has next to nothing to do with membership in the bowl subdivision. The Troys, Temples and Toledos of the world have seen to that. The NCAA may set a number, but you won't see anyone pushed out of FBS for not meeting it. Likewise, no one who's willing to spend to get in will be kept out because of attendance (see WKU).

Point #4) I don't think any JSU supporters here are arguing that a move to the bowl subdivision should actually happen, or that it will be successful. In fact, I'd say it would be a long time before we saw a winning record again. The powers that be at JSU proved with the move to I-AA they were not masters of planning or resource gathering. I think they would prove it again with an FBS jump. It took ten years of I-AA play for JSU to win a conference championship, something that was more or less an annual expectation in D-II. It also took about that long for the program to even begin to get the resources it needed to compete at this level (and we're still not quite where we ought to be). Look for that trend to continue if we move up again.

[MplsBison]

I can't find any online reference to any JSU campus other than the one at Jacksonville.

[gophoenix]

The Citadel is a State Supported Institution. Period. Please tell me how we are run like anything but what we are.

Because being a military school makes The Citadel be more selective in students as opposed to public schools like Coastal, App and most others outside schools like VMI. Being public doesn't necessarily mean you're run like a typical public school. 2000 undergrad students makes it the very size of what other public schools label as "small private" schools. On top of your website says that about half the students are from South Carolina (much like most private schools in the south)

This isn't a knock on The Citadel, at least by me, but there is enough to note that The Citadel is not run like most of the publics schools out there. And this is something most fans seem to agree on this sentiment.

As for Wofford, I can't attest to how many attend their games. I really don't know, nor do I care what game atmosphere or attendance is like there. I only care what it is like at Elon, and it needs work. But I do know that Elon doesn't stretch attendance numbers. They still only count tails in seats, not tickets bought that didn't attend.

[MoreheadEagle]

Back to the main topic. If Samford wants to go to the SoCon then I think the attitude of most of the OVC members is "don't let the door hit you". Samford never really acted like they wanted to be in the OVC in the first place so I wish them well.

I'd hate to see Jax State leave but I'd understand the reasons if they did. This leaves the conference with some big holes to fill. Our requirement that members play football of some kind has hurt the conference overall and it needs to be changed. Hopefully the Western Illinois rumors that I've been hearing are true and if Northern Ky. makes the jump to D-I then they should go to the OVC. They're in a big market and have great facilities with their new 9,000 seat arena being built.

One thing that definately needs changed is the conference commissioner. He needs to go.

[JaxSinfonian]

I can't find any online reference to any JSU campus other than the one at Jacksonville.

Cocky's standard for what he considers another campus may be a bit lower than what the rest of us require. JSU operates two one-building sites outside of Jacksonville, one about 10 miles away in Anniston on the former Fort McClellan (http://www.jsu.edu/depart/jsumc/) Army post, the other about 20 miles away in Gadsden, near the campus of Gadsden State Community College (http://www.jsu.edu/depart/jsugadsden/). The Anniston location essentially is a home for some of the university's non-traditional programs, such as continuing education, a regional police academy and in-service training for teachers. The Gadsden location offers classes in the education, business and nursing programs.

Both are nice facilities and are assets for JSU, but they're not quite on the scale of what once was TSU-Montgomery, which was an entirely seperate institution from the Troy campus until recently. I've driven past Troy's Phenix City location (about seven years ago), and I think it was about on the scale of JSU-Gadsden.

FWIW, JSU also offers courses via videoconferencing for teachers seeking graduate degrees, using facilities at several schools around Alabama and Georgia.

[MplsBison]

Interesting.

I couldn't find anything about it on JSU's wikipedia site or jsu's .edu site.

[Cocky]

You forgot the mighty Centre branch. I think it is one half of a building shared with Gadsden State.

[gophoenix]

So, the question is: Are App and GSU planning to leave? And if so, is the SoCon planning for the future and is this the face of things to come?

SoCon North:
Western Carolina
Elon
UTC
Samford
ETSU
UNCG

SoCon South:
Davidson
Furman
Wofford
The Citadel
College of Charleston
Coastal Carolina

Or is Taking in of Samford designed to stretch the conference out to provide an opportunity for Georgia State, Kennesaw St, or other schools with/starting football in.

Are App and GSU in it for the long haul?

Is Samford an appeasement for both private schools and UTC to get public schools in for the next 2?

[lizrdgizrd]

So, the question is: Are App and GSU planning to leave? And if so, is the SoCon planning for the future and is this the face of things to come?

SoCon North:
Western Carolina
Elon
UTC
Samford
ETSU
UNCG

SoCon South:
Davidson
Furman
Wofford
The Citadel
College of Charleston
Coastal Carolina

Or is Taking in of Samford designed to stretch the conference out to provide an opportunity for Georgia State, Kennesaw St, or other schools with/starting football in.

Are App and GSU in it for the long haul?

Is Samford an appeasement for both private schools and UTC to get public schools in for the next 2?
I really don't see ASU going anywhere in the next 10 years. I think it's more likely that Samford is to help appease the private schools and help UTC get a little closer partner. It really stretches the geographical boundaries though.

[Maroons]

Hopefully the Western Illinois rumors that I've been hearing are true and if Northern Ky. makes the jump to D-I then they should go to the OVC. They're in a big market and have great facilities with their new 9,000 seat arena being built.

What are the "Western Illinois rumors"? I've never heard anything linking them to the OVC.

As for NKU... I too wish they were allowed to join, mostly because EKU has such a strong alumni base in N. Ky. and it would be a natural rivalry. I don't see it happening, though.

[Maroons]

Back to the topic at hand... I don't want to see Samford go. They've been a good addition, as has Jax State, and I think keeping them both is critical to elevating the conference at this time.

I'm not sure what the lure is of the "history" of the SoCon with the SEC schools. The old SoCon with the SEC schools and the new one are essentially completely different animals. The SoCon history that should carry weight is the domination in I-AA football. That, to me, is more enticing than joining a conference that used to be home of the SEC schools.

I guess I just don't see the big draw for Samford. I wonder if they're not just tripping over themselves in excitement at being wanted somewhere.

[youwouldno]

The SoCon is just a better conference. I think that explains Samford's interest pretty plainly.

[MoreheadEagle]

What are the "Western Illinois rumors"? I've never heard anything linking them to the OVC.

As for NKU... I too wish they were allowed to join, mostly because EKU has such a strong alumni base in N. Ky. and it would be a natural rivalry. I don't see it happening, though.

It's a rumor I heard at a Morehead basketball game. EIU apparently is pushing for a travel partner and Western Illinois might be willing to jump to the OVC. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see ETSU coming to the OVC soon. The OVC needs to model itself after the SoCon in one respect. DON'T require schools to have football. The conference could have had Evansville, Belmont, and others but our commish at the time wanted them to have football. WKU wanted to be a football only member and were told "no thanks". The OVC needs to adapt in order to thrive.

[appfan2008]

Back to the topic at hand... I don't want to see Samford go. They've been a good addition, as has Jax State, and I think keeping them both is critical to elevating the conference at this time.

I'm not sure what the lure is of the "history" of the SoCon with the SEC schools. The old SoCon with the SEC schools and the new one are essentially completely different animals. The SoCon history that should carry weight is the domination in I-AA football. That, to me, is more enticing than joining a conference that used to be home of the SEC schools.

I guess I just don't see the big draw for Samford. I wonder if they're not just tripping over themselves in excitement at being wanted somewhere.

in this post you kept refering to all the SEC schools that used to make up the SOCON, yes this is true, but dont forget that the ACC schools used to make it up as well with duke ncst unc GT and others

also which would anyone rather be in the SOCON or the OVC???

[The Cats]

From the Samford board:

Southern Conference Football - Sagarin Ratings - Ranked 17th
53 - App State
121 - Wofford
134 - Furman
158 - Citadel
169 - GSU
172 - Elon
184 - Chattanooga
208 - Western Carolina

Average - 150
Median - 164

OVC Football - Sagarin Ratings - Ranked 22nd
145 - UTM
149 - EIU
160 - JSU
175 - EKU
186 - TSU
205 - TTU
217 - SEMO
221 - SU
226 - MSU

Average - 187
Median - 186

SoCon Men's Basketball - Sagarin Rating - Ranked 18th
College RPI Ranking - 16th
59 - Davidson
97 - ASU
116 - CofC
161 - NCG
194 - Furman
208 - Chattanooga
210 - GSU
212 - WCU
284 - Wofford
285 - Citadel
307 - Elon

Average - 194
Median - 208

OVC Men's Basketball - Sagarin Ratings - Ranked 27th
College RPI Ranking - 27th

177 - TTU
180 - AP
187 - SU
220 - EKU
228 - MSU
247 - Murray
256 - TSU
293 - SEMO
302 - UTM
308 - JSU
318 - EIU

Average - 247
Median - 247

SoCon Women's Basketball - College RPI Rankings - 14th
37 - Davidson
72 - Chattanooga
76 - WCU
95 - NCG
178 - Wofford
191 - Elon
210 - ASU
227 - GSU
228 - CofC
257 - Furman

Average - 157
Median - 185

OVC Women's Basketball - College RPI Rankings - 22nd
110 - Murray
147 - SEMO
188 - EKU
192 - MSU
212 - UTM
215 - AP
223 - SU
265 - EIU
274 - TTU
298 - JSU
319 - TSU

Average - 222
Median - 215

SoCon Baseball RPI - 8th
24 - Elon
19 - CofC
99 - Furman
80 - GSU
70 - Citadel
98 - WCU
114 - UNCG
167 - ASU
208 - Davidson
200 - Wofford

Average - 108
Median - 99

OVC Baseball RPI - 23rd
126 - SU
137 - JSU
178 - EIU
216 - EKU
185 - AP
221 - SEMO
257 - TTU
250 - UTM
277 - Morehead
261 - Murray

Average - 211
Median - 219

[gvilleapp]

I really don't see ASU going anywhere in the next 10 years. I think it's more likely that Samford is to help appease the private schools and help UTC get a little closer partner. It really stretches the geographical boundaries though.

I think the time frame is more like five years after all the facility improvements have been completed and the stadium is expanded.

I think a move is dependent upon what the NCAA does to further enhance FCS football by possibly forcing the reclassification of some non BCS teams in IA and then by supporting our playoffs with more money and forcing the NCAA broadcast partners to cover our game better during the playoffs and the regular season. I'm not confident that is going to happen.

From ASU's perspective, for us to make a move up, we have to find a home that makes sense from a travel and a prestige standpoint. I have a hard time seeing how conference match ups in the Sunbelt would excite the fan base, but conference games in Conference USA or a new conference with teams like Ga. Southern, JMU, Delaware, etc would be very exciting, stimulate fund raising and boost attendance and could make for more feasible travel plans for all sports, not just football and basketball.

[EKU05]

Back to the topic at hand... I don't want to see Samford go. They've been a good addition, as has Jax State, and I think keeping them both is critical to elevating the conference at this time.

I'm not sure what the lure is of the "history" of the SoCon with the SEC schools. The old SoCon with the SEC schools and the new one are essentially completely different animals. The SoCon history that should carry weight is the domination in I-AA football. That, to me, is more enticing than joining a conference that used to be home of the SEC schools.

I guess I just don't see the big draw for Samford. I wonder if they're not just tripping over themselves in excitement at being wanted somewhere.

Agreed on all counts, Maroons.

The SoCon is certainly a better football league....which is what people tend to focus on here at this football board. But I don't see them as better across the board. At least not by any kind of outrageous margin. The OVC is having one of it's worst basketball years in recent memory, but the league is young across the board.

Case in point...our young Colonels have only 4 players with a least two years of D-I experience and one of them is in his first season at Eastern. Despite that...we've been the more experienced team on more than one occasion this year. In about two years the OVC will be among the better mid-major confernces as it has been many times in the past.

Not to mention the basketball tradition in the OVC is something I would put up against any league that currently relies on a single bid to the dance.

Still...Samford is clearly listening to the SoCon...and there are plenty of reasons that I don't blame them. I hope we can convince them to stay.

[Maroons]

in this post you kept refering to all the SEC schools that used to make up the SOCON, yes this is true, but dont forget that the ACC schools used to make it up as well with duke ncst unc GT and others

also which would anyone rather be in the SOCON or the OVC???

I didn't mean my comments as an insult in the slightest. I'm just saying that the fact that the SoCon used to contain all of those schools doesn't mean much to me. The fact that they used to be there doesn't reflect on the level of play now. SoCon schools on average aren't playing at the level of SEC or ACC schools (with the exception of Duke football, perhaps).

The big draw for the SoCon, if you ask me, is not that it was once associated with these teams, but that it has won so many I-AA titles in the past 20 years. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not trying to pit the OVC against the SoCon because god knows the Ohio Valley doesn't stand a chance on a football message board and as someone else pointed out, RPI's are not currently in our favor.

Here's a question... are the travel distances essentially the same for Samford in either conference?

[youwouldno]

This stuff about the OVC only being weaker in football is annoying. The SoCon is better in I think literally every sport, with basketball being an arguable exception. Historically, the SoCon and OVC are about equal in basketball, so at worst for the SoCon it's a push.

As Samford fans have recognized, it will take a serious financial commitment for the Bulldogs to succeed in SoCon play.

[Golden Eagle]

Historically, the SoCon and OVC are about equal in basketball...

Interesting opinion.

[Saint3333]

Interesting opinion.

No opinions just facts.

www.kenpom.com

Conference RPI rankings
SoCon OVC
17 27 2007
24 20 2006
20 25 2005
19 23 2004
19 20 2003
16 26 2002
23 18 2001
22 18 2000
19 25 1999

19.88 avg. 22.44 avg.

Now for opinion:
Looks like the SoCon has been the better bball conference top to bottom over the last 9 years. The SoCon has some decent bball teams year in and year out. Davidson, UTC, and CofC are usually pretty good and teams like ASU, GSU, and UNCG have put some solid team together the past 10 years.

If EKU and Tenn. Tech got invited to the SoCon I think they join as well. I'd rather have JSU or EKU than Samford personally.

[gophoenix]

Here's a question... are the travel distances essentially the same for Samford in either conference?

From the Samford board:



SoCon v. OVC

Southern Conference
Chattanooga - Chattanooga, TN - 147 Miles
Western Carolina - Cullowhee, NC - 298 Miles
Appalachian State - Boone, NC - 415 Miles
Davidson - Davidson, NC - 407 Miles
UNC Greensboro - Greensboro, NC - 478 Miles
Elon - Elon, NC - 496 Miles
Furman - Greenville, SC - 292 Miles
Wofford - Spartanburg, SC - 319 Miles
Georgia Southern - Statesboro, Ga - 355 Miles
Citadel - Charleston, SC - 464 Miles
College of Charleston - Charleston, SC - 464 Miles

Average Distance - 376 Miles
Median Distance - 407 Miles

OVC
Austin Peay - Clarksville, TN - 240 Miles
Eastern Illinois - Charleston, IL - 475 Miles
SEMO - Cape Girardeau, MO - 405 Miles
JSU - Jacksonville, AL - 76 Miles
Morehead - Morehead, KY - 465 Miles
Murray - Murray, KY - 311 Miles
EKU - Richmond, KY - 400 Miles
TSU - Nashville, TN - 193 Miles
TTU - Cookeville, TN - 243 Miles
UTM - Martin, TN - 341 Miles

Average Distance - 315 Miles
Median Distance - 326 Miles

[EKU05]

No opinions just facts.

www.kenpom.com

Conference RPI rankings
SoCon OVC
17 27 2007
24 20 2006
20 25 2005
19 23 2004
19 20 2003
16 26 2002
23 18 2001
22 18 2000
19 25 1999

19.88 avg. 22.44 avg.

Now for opinion:
Looks like the SoCon has been the better bball conference top to bottom over the last 9 years. The SoCon has some decent bball teams year in and year out. Davidson, UTC, and CofC are usually pretty good and teams like ASU, GSU, and UNCG have put some solid team together the past 10 years.

If EKU and Tenn. Tech got invited to the SoCon I think they join as well. I'd rather have JSU or EKU than Samford personally.


I don't think the level of play is all that different. I do think the environments and fan support for OVC basketball is historically stronger....just as the same is true for the SoCon in football. When I have more time I'll have to see how attendance figures compare for the two leagues.

As far as EKU goes...

I think once upon a time we might have gone for it. Roy Kidd wanted it bad, but the administration would have no part of it from what I understand. Now currently we have a very pro-athletics president in Joanne Glasser, but at the same time she's held some important leadership positions within the OVC and has been an enthusiastic supporter of the league. I'd be interested to see what she thought about it if the SoCon did show interest in EKU.

I personally would rather stay in the OVC for good until a hypothetical day in the future when we might try our luck in the FBS. But my opinion certainly might change if other schools started to leave. Samford alone wouldn't do that though.

I don't believe for a second that TTU would leave the OVC unless they went with one or two other OVC schools (like EKU...for example).

[Death Dealer]

I'd like to see CCU in there, but they didn't ask me.

[walliver]

I still holding out for Duke and Wake Forest replacing College of Charleston and UNC-Greensboro. Of course, the Georgia Southern people would complain about the "Carolinas Conference".

[AZGrizFan]

From the Samford board:



SoCon v. OVC

Southern Conference
Chattanooga - Chattanooga, TN - 147 Miles
Western Carolina - Cullowhee, NC - 298 Miles
Appalachian State - Boone, NC - 415 Miles
Davidson - Davidson, NC - 407 Miles
UNC Greensboro - Greensboro, NC - 478 Miles
Elon - Elon, NC - 496 Miles
Furman - Greenville, SC - 292 Miles
Wofford - Spartanburg, SC - 319 Miles
Georgia Southern - Statesboro, Ga - 355 Miles
Citadel - Charleston, SC - 464 Miles
College of Charleston - Charleston, SC - 464 Miles

Average Distance - 376 Miles
Median Distance - 407 Miles

OVC
Austin Peay - Clarksville, TN - 240 Miles
Eastern Illinois - Charleston, IL - 475 Miles
SEMO - Cape Girardeau, MO - 405 Miles
JSU - Jacksonville, AL - 76 Miles
Morehead - Morehead, KY - 465 Miles
Murray - Murray, KY - 311 Miles
EKU - Richmond, KY - 400 Miles
TSU - Nashville, TN - 193 Miles
TTU - Cookeville, TN - 243 Miles
UTM - Martin, TN - 341 Miles

Average Distance - 315 Miles
Median Distance - 326 Miles

In other words.... Yes. :thumbsup: ;)

[BigApp]

In other words.... Yes.

I don't think so. It increases the average by 61 miles and the median by 81 miles.

That's an hour plus increase per trip on a bus.

[Eyes of Old Main]

Of course, the Georgia Southern people would complain about the "Carolinas Conference".

Maybe so, but remember, it's GSU's world, and we're only allowed to live in it.

[Eyes of Old Main]

I don't think so. It increases the average by 61 miles and the median by 81 miles.

That's an hour plus increase per trip on a bus.

Samford is attracted because they feel a stronger similarity with the schools in the SoCon because of the private schools. It may also be due to where their students come from, maybe they get more students from Georgia and the Carolinas instead of Tennessee and Kentucky.

As for the SoCon's attraction, I would think a bigger school would be more attractive, but maybe they really are figuring on getting a couple more schools from the group of ETSU, Jacksonville State, and Coastal Carolina. Adding a school on the western footprint is obviously part of it, both for Chattanooga and exposure.

My feel is that Samford is not a bad addition, just maybe not the best. If they end up being one of a group of new members, then I am OK. If they turn out to be it, then I am not OK. If more beyond Samford are added, I favor Coastal Carolina, ETSU and Jacksonville State, in that order.

[Eyes of Old Main]

We have to have that HQ moved out of Spartanburg because if we don't we will have all private schools who play in front of 3500 fans. ie: woffy, elon,

I'm searching for your point, citdog.

The conference office location conspiracy theory held more water when a Wofford grad was the commissioner, but since that is no longer the case, you'll have to come up with something else.

As for Wofford's attendence, I think averages have ranged between 8000 to 9500 since Gibbs Stadium opened. Granted, we can't all be like The Citadel, but maybe you should be looking at the top of our last eight box scores (the final score) before you start commenting on the bottom of the box score (attendance figures).

Lastly, why are you so quick to point out that your school is public when just a few years ago you were wishing you were private when Shannon Faulkner came knocking on your door?

[OL FU]

I'm searching for your point, citdog.

The point is cit's a butthole:nod: :rolleyes:

[citdog]

Ya'lls math dept must suck. I have been to woco games and if that is 8,000 people I am a yankee. They must have been in empty seat disguises. We are a State Supported College. Period. I wish we would have went private so we could have denied that upstate white trash girl admittance, but we didn't and just ran her out of the school in a couple of days. When you even the record with us then talk. The streak ends this year, Higgins has some karate of his own for Ayers.

[Maroons]

Samford is attracted because they feel a stronger similarity with the schools in the SoCon because of the private schools.

I feel like an idiot for not thinking of this sooner.

[PaladinFan]

I don't know how much of a difference distance would make. Most of the SoCon schools are on major interstates. Birmingham is an easy hop to Atlanta, where GSU, Furman, Wofford, and UTC are within shouting distance.

[GoldandBlack]

When you even the record with us then talk. The streak ends this year, Higgins has some karate of his own for Ayers.

Citdog, say what you will about what might happen next year - it will be proven on the field by some exceptional young men, and I wouldn't miss that game for anything short of trauma. Needless to say, I disagree with you about the anticipated result, but that's why they play the game on the field. Performance talks, and everything else walks.

And, as Robert E. Lee himself said, "At present, I am not concerned with results. God’s will ought to be our aim, and I am quite contented that His designs should be accomplished and not mine."

[Eyes of Old Main]

...but we didn't and just ran her out of the school in a couple of days.

So you're saying she was singled out based on gender and treated as poorly as possible for as long as it took to make her quit?

I don't think I'd admit that. That's the kind of comment that attorneys love.

But, I do agree that she was just trying to get in as a publicity stunt. One of my fraternity brothers at Wofford went to high school with her and let's just say he didn't have a very favorable opinion of her character.

[Eyes of Old Main]

When you even the record with us then talk.

No, I'll talk all I want to right now.

I'll acknowledge your past success, but what is more relevant to this debate, our current 8 game win streak against you guys, or a 13 games streak you had against us between 1929 and 1941 or a 15 game streak you had between 1959 and 1990? Since 1991 its 11-5 in our favor.

I know its easy for you guys to live in the past, but that won't work for you next fall, you'll have to deal with our current team (the one which doesn't have a single player on its roster that has ever lost to the Bulldogs).

Right now, the series is 40-18-1 in favor of The Citadel, but even if you guys break our streak, don't worry, we'll even it up.

[Sir William]

When you even the record with us then talk.

Let's talk about the Citadel's record since 1992.

Overall SoCon
1992 11-2 6-1
1993 5-6 4-4
1994 6-5 4-4
1995 2-9 0-8
1996 4-7 3-5
1997 6-5 4-4
1998 5-6 4-4
1999 2-9 1-7
2000 2-9 1-7
2001 3-7 2-6
2002 3-9 1-7
2003 6-6 4-4
2004 3-7 2-5
2005 4-7 2-5
2006 5-6 4-3

Citdog, please quit barking from the porch. When you start playing like a big dog (and not a puppy), you'll have more credibility with the big talk. xlolx

[citdog]

The numbers don't lie, but I think that we will look back at the 2006 season as the start of something great in Citadel Football. If we can keep Kevin Higgins. His Son, who won a BCS National Title this year at Florida is coming to play for him at El Cid this year and he seems to understand what it is going to take for us to be sucessful in the murderers row that is the Southern Conference. Boy, that 1992 season was awesome. Ranked #1 in the country in the final regular season poll and SoCon Champs even with Randy Moss and Marshall in our league.

[SoCon48]

I still holding out for Duke and Wake Forest replacing College of Charleston and UNC-Greensboro. Of course, the Georgia Southern people would complain about the "Carolinas Conference".


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[OL FU]

http://aboverim.blogspot.com/2007/02/samford-addition-likely-wouldnt-affect.html


The Southern Conference might be adding a 12th member by the 2008-09 season, but that isn’t expected to shift Davidson into a new division.

Conference officials have been in negotiations with Samford of the Ohio Valley Conference about joining the league, and could vote on that as early as the conference tournament in two weeks.

Mostly about Basketball, but it is the only update I have seen

[Cocky]

If this move does happen how much will it improve the OVC or lower the SOCON in overall football rankings? Samford has been at the bottom of the OVC and we haven't been known for our football dominance lately.

[Mr. C]

The numbers don't lie, but I think that we will look back at the 2006 season as the start of something great in Citadel Football. If we can keep Kevin Higgins. His Son, who won a BCS National Title this year at Florida is coming to play for him at El Cid this year and he seems to understand what it is going to take for us to be sucessful in the murderers row that is the Southern Conference. Boy, that 1992 season was awesome. Ranked #1 in the country in the final regular season poll and SoCon Champs even with Randy Moss and Marshall in our league.
While 1992 was a GREAT year for the Bulldogs, Randy Moss didn't arrive at Marshall until 1996, the last year for the Blundering Herd in the SoCon.

[OL FU]

If this move does happen how much will it improve the OVC or lower the SOCON in overall football rankings? Samford has been at the bottom of the OVC and we haven't been known for our football dominance lately.

Cocky, haven't you read this board enough. The SoCon doesn't care about overall conference football rankings. We care about the big three:rotateh:

[BigApp]

Cocky, haven't you read this board enough. The SoCon doesn't care about overall conference football rankings. We care about the big three:rotateh:

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Cocky]

Cocky, haven't you read this board enough. The SoCon doesn't care about overall conference football rankings. We care about the big three:rotateh:


If Samford joins there isn't much threat to it becoming the big 4.

[Eaglegus2]

I would definitely welcome Coastal Carolina & Jacksonville State into the SoCon.

Samford is just an appeasement for the private schools.



I am looking forward to the day that AppState & Georgia Southern leave the SoCon. I honestly believe this will be a package deal with a FBS conference or the start of a new conference. I have heard rumors that East Carolina may be looking to get into another conference or help start a new one.

Mr. C...........have you heard of these rumors. You seem to hear more than the average person.

[OL FU]

If Samford joins there isn't much threat to it becoming the big 4.

:nod: I think they would fit nicely around the bottom of the football ladder:o

[citdog]

:nod: I think they would fit nicely around the bottom of the football ladder:o

They would be a nice fit down there at the bottom with Georgia Southern!xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[OL FU]

I would definitely welcome Coastal Carolina & Jacksonville State into the SoCon.

Samford is just an appeasement for the private schools.



I am looking forward to the day that AppState & Georgia Southern leave the SoCon. I honestly believe this will be a package deal with a FBS conference or the start of a new conference. I have heard rumors that East Carolina may be looking to get into another conference or help start a new one.

Mr. C...........have you heard of these rumors. You seem to hear more than the average person.

http://gprime.net/board/images/smilies/bye.gif
See you later

[citdog]

Well you are going to have to wait a llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooooooon nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggg time!

[james_lawfirm]

I am looking forward to the day that AppState & Georgia Southern leave the SoCon. I honestly believe this will be a package deal with a FBS conference or the start of a new conference.

Lord, I hope both stay right where they are for the foreseeable future. I presume you also intend for ASU & GaSo to move up to FBS. Other than Marshall, I know of no school that has successfully made the transition. And sometimes I wonder if Marshall would be prefer to be back in the SoCon.

For ASU, there are too many FBS schools nearby to compete with. When Kidd Brewer fills up w/ 25,000 fans currently, the local infrastructure is maxed as it is. If, for the sake of this argument, ASU hosted a team that travelled well, like NC State, and 50,000 fans showed up, the highways would be gridlocked throughout Boone and perhaps Watauga County. I just don't see getting much larger anytime soon without some major changes, like pushing down some mountains in favor of more roads. I don't see that happening.

Further, I much prefer being the big fish in a small pond as compared to a small one in a big pond. From what I keep hearing from the administration at ASU, they intend to stay put. Good for them. :hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

[The Moody1]

From what I keep hearing from the administration at ASU, they intend to stay put. Good for them. :hurray: :hurray: :hurray:


You haven't been talking to Charlie Cobb then. Have you heard of Boise State?

[Eaglegus2]

http://gprime.net/board/images/smilies/bye.gif
See you later

This would actually give Furman the edge to be the BULLY of the SoCon.:nod: :nod: :nod: xlolx xlolx xlolx :thumbsup: :thumbsup:



Citdog wrote:



They would be a nice fit down there at the bottom with Georgia Southern!

Take all of your cheap shots while you can. Last year was just a bump in the road. Georgia Southern will be back. BTW, how often has The Citadel been considered as The Top 3 of the SoCon? Not Often!:D

[NoCoDanny]

U Conn's move up has gone pretty well.

[OL FU]

U Conn's move up has gone pretty well.

There have been more than a few that have been successful.

Boise State faired pretty well last year.

and not to start any arguments, but sucess of that type has been rare. Careful planning and implementation is required. Georgia Southern and Appalachian could pull it off but there would be bumps along the way. However, even more importantly is would it actually satisfy the fans that want to make that move. I don't see GSU competing with UGA or Tech. ASU has it a little easier in NC since the state is not quite as strong in football, but you do have 4 schools in the ACC. That is heavy competition

Marshall, UConn and Boise state have some geographic advantages to Southern Georgia and Western NC.