Why do so many Southern FCS schools move up to FBS?

[Bucs2016]

I've always been interested in this. D1 has 2 tiers. And why do so many Southern FCS teams move to FBS...while so many outside the South tend to stay put?

Appalachian State. Georgia Southern. Coastal Carolina. South Florida. Central Florida. FIU. FAU. Troy State. UAB. Georgia State. Middle Tennessee. Texas State. TX San Antonio. South Alabama. UNC Charlotte. Old Dominion. Liberty is trying hard to. There's more. It's hard to keep count.

It just seems like every Southern FCS team takes the leap once they get really good in FCS...or...very early when they could probably become a very strong FCS program but jump quickly.

And these aren't the major flagship schools of a state. They're usually far down the totem pole in their state.

Meanwhile....primary flagship universities in other places outside the South don't move up. I only recall a few. Boise did. Marshall did. UMass and UConn. Who else? What's the deal with Montana, NDSU, etc? Seems like the major flagship public universities of each state would by default wanna join their peers in FBS....much less join schools who are way down the totem pole in their own states.

Is there just THAT MUCH more FBS talent down South than everywhere else?

[PantherRob82]

I've always been interested in this. D1 has 2 tiers. And why do so many Southern FCS teams move to FBS...while so many outside the South tend to stay put?

Appalachian State. Georgia Southern. Coastal Carolina. South Florida. Central Florida. FIU. FAU. Troy State. UAB. Georgia State. Middle Tennessee. Texas State. TX San Antonio. South Alabama. UNC Charlotte. Old Dominion. Liberty is trying hard to. There's more. It's hard to keep count.

It just seems like every Southern FCS team takes the leap once they get really good in FCS...or...very early when they could probably become a very strong FCS program but jump quickly.

And these aren't the major flagship schools of a state. They're usually far down the totem pole in their state.

Meanwhile....primary flagship universities in other places outside the South don't move up. I only recall a few. Boise did. Marshall did. UMass and UConn. Who else? What's the deal with Montana, NDSU, etc? Seems like the major flagship public universities of each state would by default wanna join their peers in FBS....much less join schools who are way down the totem pole in their own states.

Is there just THAT MUCH more FBS talent down South than everywhere else?

The common denomination seems to be the Sun Belt footprint. xlolx

[Katfan]

Good question, I hope we never do, but I fear there are those that would love too.

[Bucs2016]

The common denomination seems to be the Sun Belt footprint. xlolx

Um...so? MAC. MWC. WAC. There have been conferences over the years in the Midwest and West that were 2nd tier FBS.

Northern Iowa has a very similar profile as Georgia Southern in terms of enrollment, endowment and place on the totem pole in their state.

[Bucs2016]

Good question, I hope we never do, but I fear there are those that would love too.

Yeah. SHSU fits in FCS pretty good. Just like most FCS teams. I just never understood the big primary flagship schools in FCS.

[PantherRob82]

Um...so? MAC. MWC. WAC. There have been conferences over the years in the Midwest and West that were 2nd tier FBS.

Northern Iowa has a very similar profile as Georgia Southern in terms of enrollment, endowment and place on the totem pole in their state.

So when did the MAC look to FCS? UMass once?
When did the MWC look to FCS? Never. They took out the WAC. No FCS teams were looking to jump on the sinking ship of the WAC.

So....that.

[ElCid]

Well, some of the teams you mentioned did not necessarily "move" from FCS to FBS. They did a planned FCS touch and go always with a scheduled FBS move planned from the beginning of their program. Ga St, ODU, S Fla, Charlotte, FIU, FAU, and I think TX SA, Troy, and S Ala as well but I am not sure, were never going to make FCS their home. They just used it for their start up. Now, that did not apply to App, Ga So, CCU, Middle Tenn, Boise, and Marshall. They made their home in FCS for years and found a suitable time to move. They may have wanted to move up but they never had a scheduled time like the others. But the question is a good one. All has to do with $ and exposure most likely. Some schools, especially those without any history feel they need to have the exposure that being FBS brings them. I thin it has watered down the talent though across the board, FBS and FCS.

[Mocdaddy]

Napoleon Complex?

[ElCid]

Napoleon Complex?

Hah! I was thinking the same thing!

[Grizalltheway]

Yeah. SHSU fits in FCS pretty good. Just like most FCS teams. I just never understood the big primary flagship schools in FCS.

Population, enrollment, resources.

[BadlandsGrizFan]

Many of those schools like Montana..NDSU...South Dakota State.....love the position they are in now.....theyre the big dogs on the yard and the biggest show in town. They dont need to move up for recognition. A team like Georgia Southern however is much different, you could ask half of the state of Georgia about Georgia Southern and they wouldnt know what you were talking about.

Thats the major difference.

[Thumper 76]

Um...so? MAC. MWC. WAC. There have been conferences over the years in the Midwest and West that were 2nd tier FBS.

Northern Iowa has a very similar profile as Georgia Southern in terms of enrollment, endowment and place on the totem pole in their state.

Geography......like what Rob said, the only conferences that take schools straight from FCS have been the Sunbelt and CUSA. I'm assuming you are referencing Montana, UNI, Montana State, SDSU, NDSU, USD, UND, ect. None of those schools fit into the geographic profile of the MAC, UNI and the Dakota schools are quite a ways outside of the footprint of the MWC, that one is closest, and they aren't taking any FCS schools.

The most important thing you are missing is that you need an invite to move up. The schools that moved up in the South were invited after the conference that invited them got raided by the bigger conferences. Those conferences aren't adding a school way out west, there's a reason that Idaho and NMSU got dropped from their FBS conferences. The Dakota schools and UNI are in the footprint of the B1G and the Big XII, and that invite is never happening due to the size of media markets that those schools reside in. A lot of it has to do with and invite, and one that makes sense for the school.

From the schools perspective, why would you move up to a CUSA or Sunbelt when their media contracts just got cut down to nothing to have to pay to play in a conference extremely far from your school against schools that have no connection to your university? The exponential increase in costs is not covered by this magical "FBS money" people tends to think just gets handed to your university with the FBS title. A lot of schools lose money by making a bowl game because they are required to purchase a certain amount of tickets. It just doesn't make sense for a northern/midwest school to do all that for some scrub time on a Tuesday night to kill your attendance for a chance at the Who Gives A **** Car Care Bowl. It would have to be an invite to a conference like the MWC or that MAC, but those invites aren't coming either unless some drastic changes happen.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I've followed App State's and Georgia Southern's move up and the #1 thing that's repeated over and over is money. It is VERY difficult to establish wealth in today's college football world. Boise State was able to do it before TV contracts were dishing out millions of dollars to universities. The Sun Belt has maybe a 5-10% chance at best to ever reach an Access Bowl. There's simply no avenues anymore to build yourself up if you make the move to FBS.

A school like Georgia Southern moved up with a very small bank account and it's hurting them greatly. The whole "we'll rise up from the ashes" mantra like they used with great success in FCS will not cut it in FBS. They have a small donor base and rely heavily on cash games. I don't see anyway the Eagles are more than "slightly relevant" every few years in FBS. They can't get a solid home and home scheduled..

[ElCid]

Many of those schools like Montana..NDSU...South Dakota State.....love the position they are in now.....theyre the big dogs on the yard and the biggest show in town. They dont need to move up for recognition. A team like Georgia Southern however is much different, you could ask half of the state of Georgia about Georgia Southern and they wouldnt know what you were talking about.

Thats the major difference.

Ahhh, not so sure about that. As much as I loathe the Eaglesxrolleyesx, having lived in Georgia for a total of 15 years until recently, most folks there know about Georgia Southern. But they obviously do not have the support that UGA has or Georgia Tech. But the point is still taken. I think it is more important to say that people outside of Georgia do not know them. They will not get out of state students if they are not well known.

[CID1990]

Well, some of the teams you mentioned did not necessarily "move" from FCS to FBS. They did a planned FCS touch and go always with a scheduled FBS move planned from the beginning of their program. Ga St, ODU, S Fla, Charlotte, FIU, FAU, and I think TX SA, Troy, and S Ala as well but I am not sure, were never going to make FCS their home. They just used it for their start up. Now, that did not apply to App, Ga So, CCU, Middle Tenn, Boise, and Marshall. They made their home in FCS for years and found a suitable time to move. They may have wanted to move up but they never had a scheduled time like the others. But the question is a good one. All has to do with $ and exposure most likely. Some schools, especially those without any history feel they need to have the exposure that being FBS brings them. I thin it has watered down the talent though across the board, FBS and FCS.

Marshall was essentially I-A prior to them flying that plane into a hill - it set them back so their rebuild took them through I-AA


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[DFW HOYA]

I'm surprised no one has raised this issue: state funding.

Funding varies by state, but appropriations tend to go to schools with growing enrollments and capital improvement needs. When UCF and USF made the upward climb, appropriations followed, and it wasn't just UF and FSU that had to be funded. Georgia State has gone from an extension school to a university with $60 million annually in research grants and the next tenant at Turner Field. And when UAB had its football nadir, who was leading the opposition? Paul Bryant Jr., who led a group of trustees that felt that funding the UA at Birmingham would be at the expense of that UA in dear old Tuscaloosa.

Conversely, that's why private schools have shown so little interest.

[Katfan]

Population, enrollment, resources.
The cost to be FBS is significantly higher.

[Herder]

Have you looked at the Sagarin ratings for the Belt, MAC and a few others vs the top FCS conf? Don't automatically confuse FBS with better football. Most of the G5 is a lot closer to the MVFC than it is to the P5.

in my opinion, having an avenue to a championship playoff is lacking in the G5. There should be an FBS playoff, and each conf champ should have access to that championship. They don't.

As I've said over and Over.

12 Team Playoff
Top 4 Teams - 1st round Byes (Today's selection process)
Top 5 conf champs in (5)
4 at large teams (4) highest ranked
each Conf champs has access
3 play-in games determine last 3 spots (3)
1 financial share paid to the 12 teams split evenly

Do that, and I'd vote for moving FBS. As a G5 today, why? You have no access, you get screwed. Why put up with that?

[Cocky]

I've always been interested in this. D1 has 2 tiers. And why do so many Southern FCS teams move to FBS...while so many outside the South tend to stay put?

Appalachian State. Georgia Southern. Coastal Carolina. South Florida. Central Florida. FIU. FAU. Troy State. UAB. Georgia State. Middle Tennessee. Texas State. TX San Antonio. South Alabama. UNC Charlotte. Old Dominion. Liberty is trying hard to. There's more. It's hard to keep count.

It just seems like every Southern FCS team takes the leap once they get really good in FCS...or...very early when they could probably become a very strong FCS program but jump quickly.

And these aren't the major flagship schools of a state. They're usually far down the totem pole in their state.

Meanwhile....primary flagship universities in other places outside the South don't move up. I only recall a few. Boise did. Marshall did. UMass and UConn. Who else? What's the deal with Montana, NDSU, etc? Seems like the major flagship public universities of each state would by default wanna join their peers in FBS....much less join schools who are way down the totem pole in their own states.

Is there just THAT MUCH more FBS talent down South than everywhere else?

Didnt know Boise was a flagship always thought it was a JC originally.

[Bucs2016]

Population, enrollment, resources.

But that's the thing. These public flagship schools like NDSU and Montana and others...have far more of that than, say, Wofford or Charleston Southern or The Citadel. Large public flagship universities seem to belong in FBS. Not sure why some of those choose to stay in FCS.

[Bucs2016]

Ahhh, not so sure about that. As much as I loathe the Eaglesxrolleyesx, having lived in Georgia for a total of 15 years until recently, most folks there know about Georgia Southern. But they obviously do not have the support that UGA has or Georgia Tech. But the point is still taken. I think it is more important to say that people outside of Georgia do not know them. They will not get out of state students if they are not well known.

Absolutely right. I'm born and raised in upstate SC. And as you said...they aren't UGA or Clemson. But people are well aware of Georgia Southern. Just as they are/were of other FCS programs when they're playing excellent like The Citadel, CSU, Coastal, and even D2 Valdosta State when they're flying high.

But then again, i hate to say it....football fans down South are far better and more knowledgeable than anywhere else, believe me.

[Thumper 76]

But that's the thing. These public flagship schools like NDSU and Montana and others...have far more of that than, say, Wofford or Charleston Southern or The Citadel. Large public flagship universities seem to belong in FBS. Not sure why some of those choose to stay in FCS.
So are you just blatantly not reading the reasons posted or just reading what you want to?

[Bucs2016]

I'm surprised no one has raised this issue: state funding.

Funding varies by state, but appropriations tend to go to schools with growing enrollments and capital improvement needs. When UCF and USF made the upward climb, appropriations followed, and it wasn't just UF and FSU that had to be funded. Georgia State has gone from an extension school to a university with $60 million annually in research grants and the next tenant at Turner Field. And when UAB had its football nadir, who was leading the opposition? Paul Bryant Jr., who led a group of trustees that felt that funding the UA at Birmingham would be at the expense of that UA in dear old Tuscaloosa.

Conversely, that's why private schools have shown so little interest.

Great point and part of why I asked. Big state schools like the Dakotas and Montanas are state funded and don't compete with anyone else for that funding. Whereas smaller or lower totem pole schools down South often are way down the public funding list or are private and receive almost none.

So....it's quite remarkable when, for example, the state of SC has 3 FCS teams of top 15 caliber who are a small private Christian school (CSU) a rigorous military school (Citadel) and a second tier public school who takes a back seat to USC, Clemson, Med U of SC and SC State (Coastal). YET they're playing that caliber of ball anyway.

[Bucs2016]

So are you just blatantly not reading the reasons posted or just reading what you want to?

I did and that's my point. For example...SDSU gets public funding and is 1 of 2 primary public colleges in the state. Top of the totem pole. But their competitors in FCS down South....are all 5th, 6th, or more down their states funding list. It's not apples to oranges. But it is red apples to green apples.

[BisonFan02]

So are you just blatantly not reading the reasons posted or just reading what you want to?

Anyone wanna start cherry picking resource disparity in the FBS between schools like Texas and G5 members?

[Thumper 76]

I did and that's my point. For example...SDSU gets public funding and is 1 of 2 primary public colleges in the state. Top of the totem pole. But their competitors in FCS down South....are all 5th, 6th, or more down their states funding list. It's not apples to oranges. But it is red apples to green apples.
You obviously only read what you wanted to read. Here I'll make it more clear.

THEY NEED A CONFERENCE INVITE THAT THEY AREN'T GOING TO BE RECEIVING ANY TIME SOON DUE TO LOCATION AND MEDIA MARKETS,

[Bucs2016]

You obviously only read what you wanted to read. Here I'll make it more clear.

THEY NEED A CONFERENCE INVITE THAT THEY AREN'T GOING TO BE RECEIVING ANY TIME SOON DUE TO LOCATION AND MEDIA MARKETS,

I promise if NDSU and Montana began a campaign to move into one...someone would invite.

[PantherRob82]

Take your pick:
-Southern Speed
-Slavery
-Robert E. Lee
-Hurricanes

- - - Updated - - -


I promise if NDSU and Montana began a campaign to move into one...someone would invite.

How do you know they haven't?

[BisonFan02]

You obviously only read what you wanted to read. Here I'll make it more clear.

THEY NEED A CONFERENCE INVITE THAT THEY AREN'T GOING TO BE RECEIVING ANY TIME SOON DUE TO LOCATION AND MEDIA MARKETS,

Also, what's a "primary public college"? Look at all of the ****ing public schools funded in little old North Dakota. xlolx

[Bucs2016]

Take your pick:
-Southern Speed
-Slavery
-Robert E. Lee
-Hurricanes

- - - Updated - - -



How do you know they haven't?

Huh??? What did hurricanes and Robert E Lee have to do with this?

[BisonFan02]

I promise if NDSU and Montana began a campaign to move into one...someone would invite.

Idaho 2.0 in the ****ty Sunbelt? Ha, no ****ing thanks.

[Bucs2016]

Also, what's a "primary public college"? Look at all of the ****ing public schools funded in little old North Dakota. xlolx

Just means the main ones. Like UGA in GA or Clemson in SC. Bama and Auburn.

[Thumper 76]

I promise if NDSU and Montana began a campaign to move into one...someone would invite.
Give me a reason that actual conferences look for. Please. One. Geographical footprint. Media market size. Need of another school. Something other than they are a "Big public school".

You should do some research into the size of these massive public schools that you are campaigning for FBS before you make general assumptions off of what you assume based off of what you know in SC. The $ is quite different.

[PantherRob82]

Huh??? What did hurricanes and Robert E Lee have to do with this?

As much as some of the stuff you have mentioned. Is November over yet? xrolleyesx

[BisonFan02]

Just means the main ones. Like UGA in GA or Clemson in SC. Bama and Auburn.

ND has about 750k people....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina

Which for argument is pretty much the metro of Charleston.....but whatever floats your boat.

[Thumper 76]

Just means the main ones. Like UGA in GA or Clemson in SC. Bama and Auburn.
Like I said, maybe compare the sizes of said schools to what you are thinking of and get a dose of reality really quick before this conversation continues.

[1984]

ND has about 750k people....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_South_Carolina

Which for argument is pretty much the metro of Charleston.....but whatever floats your boat.

Also consider that NDSU is on the east boarder of the state. The further west you go the less likely they are to be Bison fans. Also that 750,000 are split between NDSU and UND. You will not find support at the state level for building the size facilities needed for FBS. The reason the Fargo Dome is called that is it was funded by Fargo not the entire state. The area simply does not have the population and money to support FBS sports. There was significant opposition to moving from Division II to FCS. UND only moved to FCS after it was obvious that they were in danger of becoming being seen as a second rate University in the state. Now if the population of the Fargo area and the state doubles then it would be possible because you would have the fan base to fill a much larger stadium.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think it has to do with the fact that in order to sleep with their wives at night, these presidents have to convince themselves that they are the presidents of a "big-time" school that "rubs shoulders" with Michigan and Alabama, even if the concept of Eastern Michigan rubbing elbows with Michigan or USF rubbing elbows with Florida State in any way is bat**** ridiculous. It's sort-of like a very, very expensive (mostly) Southern Viagra for university presidents, paid for by state and federal tax dollars.

[caribbeanhen]

Take your pick:
-Southern Speed
-Slavery
-Robert E. Lee
-Hurricanes

- - - Updated - - -



How do you know they haven't?

this has to be it, give me credit for reading the thread before posting that one myself... haha

[TheBoyWhoSeaWolf]

You kind of have to look at it on a school by school basis, but if I were to answer this thread's question using broad generalizations (not typically recommended but what the hell), I'd say there are a few reasons for schools in the north east:

1) Small Liberal Arts colleges in the North East tend to attract the sorts of students who probably don't care much for football. My wife is one such person. And she went to one such school. She HATES football. I mean HATES it. She fit right in at her school. People attending Small Liberal Arts colleges in the south are required to like football from birth ... otherwise they'd have probably planned their escape by going to a north east small liberal arts college.

2) State Universities in the northeast have huge amounts of competition for entertainment. Let's just compare Alabama to Long Island. And by Long Island I only mean the eastern half, i.e. not including Brooklyn and Queens. Alabama and Long Island (minus Brooklyn and Queens which would double it) have approximately the same number of people. If you live in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, what the hell else is there to do? If you live on Long Island you have SOOOOO many other things to do. NYC is a quick train ride away. So are a million other things just right on Long Island. Much of the north east is close to bustling, dynamic urban centers. The Boston-New York-Philadelphia-Baltimore-Washington corridor is a tough place for college football as there are SOOOOOOOOOOO many pro sports teams and SOOOOOOOOOO many Universities competing with one another for attention. And so it's hard to justify funding giant football programs that have yet to prove they can attract anyone. There are 40 Universities in Boston alone. Probably more in NYC. Lots of competition, just in the pro and college sports realm, let alone everything else. What competition do most of these southern state schools have? In Tuscaloosa, they're the only game in town ... and all the other neighboring towns.

3) In the Northeast, there is always pushback against spending on athletics. This has a long history in the SUNY system, but other systems around here as well. Try spending huge amounts of money on college athletics in Vermont, you'll end up thrown out sooner than you can say Catamount. This has long been true in SUNY too.

By the way, I would say there is an argument to be made for a system like SUNY, which is in one of the most expensive states, yet has the 2nd cheapest tuition. So many great schools in our system (yes, even Albany). They don't tend to spend much money on athletics, certainly not on coaches. But you know what they do spend money on? Academic facilities, teaching hospitals, research centers, etc. That's not such a bad thing.

[Bucs2016]

Give me a reason that actual conferences look for. Please. One. Geographical footprint. Media market size. Need of another school. Something other than they are a "Big public school".

You should do some research into the size of these massive public schools that you are campaigning for FBS before you make general assumptions off of what you assume based off of what you know in SC. The $ is quite different.

I have. And they aren't much different than many FBS schools down here.

[BisonFan02]

I have. And they aren't much different than many FBS schools down here.

All you are doing is cherry picking current FCS programs that have had success and are crying poverty. No mention of Delaware? How about a school like Portland State with their 22.5k undergrads?

[Bucs2016]

Also consider that NDSU is on the east boarder of the state. The further west you go the less likely they are to be Bison fans. Also that 750,000 are split between NDSU and UND. You will not find support at the state level for building the size facilities needed for FBS. The reason the Fargo Dome is called that is it was funded by Fargo not the entire state. The area simply does not have the population and money to support FBS sports. There was significant opposition to moving from Division II to FCS. UND only moved to FCS after it was obvious that they were in danger of becoming being seen as a second rate University in the state. Now if the population of the Fargo area and the state doubles then it would be possible because you would have the fan base to fill a much larger stadium.

Depends. I bet if you had FBS teams coming to Fargo instead of FCS ones you'd get even bigger crowds. The Fargo Dome environment is far better than probably a good chunk of the lower tier of FBS teams. Montana also.

[Stonewall D]

None of the schools that moved up had a dome. All of their stadiums are open relatively easy to expand. NDSU and uni both have domes with limited seating capacity.

[Bucs2016]

All you are doing is cherry picking current FCS programs that have had success and are crying poverty. No mention of Delaware? How about a school like Portland State with their 22.5k undergrads?

Oh yes, Delaware, New Hampshire, Maine. They're in the same boat. Portland State also.

Maybe there's just so much more talent down South and that's why so many of the teams are able to move up.:)

[Bucs2016]

You kind of have to look at it on a school by school basis, but if I were to answer this thread's question using broad generalizations (not typically recommended but what the hell), I'd say there are a few reasons for schools in the north east:

1) Small Liberal Arts colleges in the North East tend to attract the sorts of students who probably don't care much for football. My wife is one such person. And she went to one such school. She HATES football. I mean HATES it. She fit right in at her school. People attending Small Liberal Arts colleges in the south are required to like football from birth ... otherwise they'd have probably planned their escape by going to a north east small liberal arts college.

2) State Universities in the northeast have huge amounts of competition for entertainment. Let's just compare Alabama to Long Island. And by Long Island I only mean the eastern half, i.e. not including Brooklyn and Queens. Alabama and Long Island (minus Brooklyn and Queens which would double it) have approximately the same number of people. If you live in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, what the hell else is there to do? If you live on Long Island you have SOOOOO many other things to do. NYC is a quick train ride away. So are a million other things just right on Long Island. Much of the north east is close to bustling, dynamic urban centers. The Boston-New York-Philadelphia-Baltimore-Washington corridor is a tough place for college football as there are SOOOOOOOOOOO many pro sports teams and SOOOOOOOOOO many Universities competing with one another for attention. And so it's hard to justify funding giant football programs that have yet to prove they can attract anyone. There are 40 Universities in Boston alone. Probably more in NYC. Lots of competition, just in the pro and college sports realm, let alone everything else. What competition do most of these southern state schools have? In Tuscaloosa, they're the only game in town ... and all the other neighboring towns.

3) In the Northeast, there is always pushback against spending on athletics. This has a long history in the SUNY system, but other systems around here as well. Try spending huge amounts of money on college athletics in Vermont, you'll end up thrown out sooner than you can say Catamount. This has long been true in SUNY too.

By the way, I would say there is an argument to be made for a system like SUNY, which is in one of the most expensive states, yet has the 2nd cheapest tuition. So many great schools in our system (yes, even Albany). They don't tend to spend much money on athletics, certainly not on coaches. But you know what they do spend money on? Academic facilities, teaching hospitals, research centers, etc. That's not such a bad thing.

Well they need to get their priorities into better formxdrunkyx

[BisonFan02]

Oh yes, Delaware, New Hampshire, Maine. They're in the same boat. Portland State also.

Maybe there's just so much more talent down South and that's why so many of the teams are able to move up.:)

Geez.......it sounds like more and more schools are exactly where they belong in the first place. The "talent" in the south is already readily recruited to former BCS schools. The difference between the North and the South is a readily available and geographical G5 conference whore.

[grizband]

Oh yes, Delaware, New Hampshire, Maine. They're in the same boat. Portland State also.

Maybe there's just so much more talent down South and that's why so many of the teams are able to move up.:)
Portland State nearly shut down football due to funding, and you believe they should move up to FBS?

[PAllen]

Because they have the fan and alumin support to do so. Most schools in the NE struggle to adequately support their program at this level. They look at moves to FBS and see UConn (moderate success, but a flagship school), Buffalo (less so), and UMass (another flagship and a failure).

[Catatonic]

I've always been interested in this. D1 has 2 tiers. And why do so many Southern FCS teams move to FBS...while so many outside the South tend to stay put?

Appalachian State. Georgia Southern. Coastal Carolina. South Florida. Central Florida. FIU. FAU. Troy State. UAB. Georgia State. Middle Tennessee. Texas State. TX San Antonio. South Alabama. UNC Charlotte. Old Dominion. Liberty is trying hard to. There's more. It's hard to keep count.

It just seems like every Southern FCS team takes the leap once they get really good in FCS...or...very early when they could probably become a very strong FCS program but jump quickly.

And these aren't the major flagship schools of a state. They're usually far down the totem pole in their state.

Meanwhile....primary flagship universities in other places outside the South don't move up. I only recall a few. Boise did. Marshall did. UMass and UConn. Who else? What's the deal with Montana, NDSU, etc? Seems like the major flagship public universities of each state would by default wanna join their peers in FBS....much less join schools who are way down the totem pole in their own states.

Is there just THAT MUCH more FBS talent down South than everywhere else?

The short answer to your question is Yes.

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3588114/AEKxBnY.0.png

[UNHWildcat18]

Oh yes, Delaware, New Hampshire, Maine. They're in the same boat. Portland State also.

Maybe there's just so much more talent down South and that's why so many of the teams are able to move up.:)

What in hell are you smoking? I don't think you can make a single argument for either UNH or Maine to go FBS, nor would they ever.

There are many factors as many people have mentioned. Your ridiculous babbling is giving me a headache.


The real reason though has to be the nice weather right????? AMMM I RIGHT??

[Twentysix]

I'm surprised no one has raised this issue: state funding.

Funding varies by state, but appropriations tend to go to schools with growing enrollments and capital improvement needs. When UCF and USF made the upward climb, appropriations followed, and it wasn't just UF and FSU that had to be funded. Georgia State has gone from an extension school to a university with $60 million annually in research grants and the next tenant at Turner Field. And when UAB had its football nadir, who was leading the opposition? Paul Bryant Jr., who led a group of trustees that felt that funding the UA at Birmingham would be at the expense of that UA in dear old Tuscaloosa.

Conversely, that's why private schools have shown so little interest.

Which is funny cause I'm pretty sure UAB is the better school academically.

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Didnt know Boise was a flagship always thought it was a JC originally.

It isn't, it was.

[Twentysix]

The short answer to your question is Yes.

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3588114/AEKxBnY.0.png

The star ranking systems are also more active in the south skewing the results, the north and NDSU have produced numerous NFL talents that weren't even ranked in the college recruiting process. I'm sure you can say the exact same thing about Montana or UNI or whatever. They didn't even make an unranked/unstarred profile for carson wentz, barring a career ending injury he may still be a starting quarterback in 2030 and would have been the starting quarterback for nearly every single team in the FBS his senior season, not even a profile. Several other people recruited in that class received zero stars collectively and are still cashing NFL paychecks.

David Johnson is listed as a no star WR in the scout database, he also could have been the starting running back for nearly every single team in the FBS his senior season.

Let's just say the HS football ratings industry misses hard in the north.

[kalm]

Nevada was another northern school that moved up.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Ga Southern and App St. have more in common with Troy, Middle Tenn, Western Ky, E. Carolina, Marshall, Southern Miss, etc. than with Wofford, Furman, and The Citadel. The College Football landscape continues to "evolve" (or devolve) to an ESPN governed NFL Farm system. Schools like us have no hope of becoming members of that system, but wanted to "stay" in the 2nd Tier of DI which is the so-called G5. In spite of our shoestring budget, it is nearly twice as big as it was in FCS after only 2 years. We made a bad hire and our coaching staff can't run an option offense.We'll get the bigger home-home games when we complete our next expansion to seat over 30K. I don't really care about the home-home. I'd rather go beat Indiana and Minnesota at their place and get paid $1 million for doing it.

[Catatonic]

The star ranking systems are also more active in the south skewing the results, the north and NDSU have produced numerous NFL talents that weren't even ranked in the college recruiting process. I'm sure you can say the exact same thing about Montana or UNI or whatever. They didn't even make an unranked/unstarred profile for carson wentz, barring a career ending injury he may still be a starting quarterback in 2030 and would have been the starting quarterback for nearly every single team in the FBS his senior season, not even a profile. Several other people recruited in that class received zero stars collectively and are still cashing NFL paychecks.

David Johnson is listed as a no star WR in the scout database, he also could have been the starting running back for nearly every single team in the FBS his senior season.

Let's just say the HS football ratings industry misses hard in the north.

There is some truth to what you are saying. Many a future star is overlooked for one reason or another. It is also undeniably true that players rated below three stars are in the minority on NFL rosters.

[Big_Fan]

http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width620/img/datacentral/photo/21065840-mmmain.png

[Thumper 76]

Portland State nearly shut down football due to funding, and you believe they should move up to FBS?
xlolx his entire premise is you just go to FBS as soon as you want, no questions asked and the money magically comes when that happens. Its very scientific.

[ElCid]

Ga Southern and App St. have more in common with Troy, Middle Tenn, Western Ky, E. Carolina, Marshall, Southern Miss, etc. than with Wofford, Furman, and The Citadel. The College Football landscape continues to "evolve" (or devolve) to an ESPN governed NFL Farm system. Schools like us have no hope of becoming members of that system, but wanted to "stay" in the 2nd Tier of DI which is the so-called G5. In spite of our shoestring budget, it is nearly twice as big as it was in FCS after only 2 years. We made a bad hire and our coaching staff can't run an option offense.We'll get the bigger home-home games when we complete our next expansion to seat over 30K. I don't really care about the home-home. I'd rather go beat Indiana and Minnesota at their place and get paid $1 million for doing it.

Just stay away from our guy please. No hunting allowed in Charleston.

[Daytripper]

I have no idea why TX State, North Texas, UTSA and others moved up. There is no way in hell that they can compete for market share or fans in Texas. There are just too many Premier FBS schools to compete against. Plus, the play in a ***tty conference and will never play in a decent bowl. At least in FCS they have a chance for relevance. I hope Sam Houston never moves to FBS. Of course, this will be a moot point when the Power 5 go to their 4 sixteen-team superconferences. Then the rest of FBS will combine with upper tier FCS to form a new division, hopefully with a playoff.

[ST_Lawson]

The short answer to your question is Yes.

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3588114/AEKxBnY.0.png

To be fair though, if you compare that to general population density of the US, the map isn't that much different. It does go a little heavier into the south, especially in places like Texas (which, outside of the big cities, is fairly "empty", plus has a very well developed youth football system), and Missouri (not sure what the deal is there, do they have good youth football?). Otherwise...heavy to the east of the Mississippi River, places like Florida and New Jersey, as well as California (lots of people, plus good JUCO system).

http://www.mapofusa.net/us-population-map.gif

[FUBeAR]

Just stay away from our guy please. No hunting allowed in Charleston.

If the melded reincarnations of John Heisman, Knute Rockne, Bear Bryant, Joe Paterno, and Nick Saban (he's not dead yet though, right?) was a Head Coach in the SoCon, GaSou wouldn't even take his phone call. My goodness, what would their FBS FanBase say about them going to the lowly FCS SoCon for a Head Coach. I mean, hiring from the Southland Conference was OK a couple of years ago, but certainly NOT anyone from the SoCon! That just would not do! They need a 'name' FBS hire now. I've heard Les Miles has been contacted already.

[The Pud]

If the melded reincarnations of John Heisman, Knute Rockne, Bear Bryant, Joe Paterno, and Nick Saban (he's not dead yet though, right?) was a Head Coach in the SoCon, GaSou wouldn't even take his phone call. My goodness, what would their FBS FanBase say about them going to the lowly FCS SoCon for a Head Coach. I mean, hiring from the Southland Conference was OK a couple of years ago, but certainly NOT anyone from the SoCon! That just would not do! They need a 'name' FBS hire now. I've heard Les Miles has been contacted already.


Hiring from Southland Conference is still happening.........Collins now at UL-Monore, Stoker, etc......

xlolx:Dxnodx

[McNeese72]

I've always been interested in this. D1 has 2 tiers. And why do so many Southern FCS teams move to FBS...while so many outside the South tend to stay put?

Appalachian State. Georgia Southern. Coastal Carolina. South Florida. Central Florida. FIU. FAU. Troy State. UAB. Georgia State. Middle Tennessee. Texas State. TX San Antonio. South Alabama. UNC Charlotte. Old Dominion. Liberty is trying hard to. There's more. It's hard to keep count.



You can add some more former Southland teams, Ark St. North Texas St, La Tech, and ULM (formerly Northeast La) to that list.

[ccd494]

Oh yes, Delaware, New Hampshire, Maine. They're in the same boat. Portland State also.

The problem with looking at Maine, or New Hampshire, or Delaware, or Vermont, or Rhode Island and saying "why aren't these big state flagships FBS???" are a few fallacies:

1. These state flagships aren't "big." UMaine has under 11,000 undergrads. UNH is under 15,000. URI under 16,000. UVM under 12,000.

2. These state flagships aren't the focal point of their states like UNC or Florida or (especially) Alabama are. People don't grow up plastering their cars and yards with State U's flags, dreaming that little Susie and Johnny will follow their footsteps to the ol' alma mater. In Maine, if parents want their kids to stay in state, they want them to go to Colby, Bates and Bowdoin. The Ivies are "local" schools. You can't go to the supermarket without tripping over a Harvard or Dartmouth grad. (The Dartmouth philosophy grad may even bag your groceries!) If you are a big sports fan in Rhode Island, you have Providence College basketball or Brown athletics.

3. These schools aren't near population centers. Yes, I know Auburn, Alabama isn't Atlanta. But it's a 2 hour plus drive from Maine's only city with over 100.000 metro to UMaine's campus. The largest big city to UVM is Montreal. And when we say "it's rural," we mean there is one (ONE!) city with a population over 30,000 within a two hour drive of Maine's campus.

Basically, leave us out of your FBS dreams. We can barely support FCS football.

[Big_Fan]

The reason we want to move up is to improve our rivalry situation. There just aren't many quality FCS opponents that we have tradition with, within a reasonable distance. Samford and Chatty are in the SoCon, and that conference didn't want us. If we could get into the Sunbelt or CUSA, we would have a better slate of conference games, and P5 payouts would increase.

...and renewing the battle for the old school bell would be nice.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The problem with looking at Maine, or New Hampshire, or Delaware, or Vermont, or Rhode Island and saying "why aren't these big state flagships FBS???" are a few fallacies:

1. These state flagships aren't "big." UMaine has under 11,000 undergrads. UNH is under 15,000. URI under 16,000. UVM under 12,000.

2. These state flagships aren't the focal point of their states like UNC or Florida or (especially) Alabama are. People don't grow up plastering their cars and yards with State U's flags, dreaming that little Susie and Johnny will follow their footsteps to the ol' alma mater. In Maine, if parents want their kids to stay in state, they want them to go to Colby, Bates and Bowdoin. The Ivies are "local" schools. You can't go to the supermarket without tripping over a Harvard or Dartmouth grad. (The Dartmouth philosophy grad may even bag your groceries!) If you are a big sports fan in Rhode Island, you have Providence College basketball or Brown athletics.

3. These schools aren't near population centers. Yes, I know Auburn, Alabama isn't Atlanta. But it's a 2 hour plus drive from Maine's only city with over 100.000 metro to UMaine's campus. The largest big city to UVM is Montreal. And when we say "it's rural," we mean there is one (ONE!) city with a population over 30,000 within a two hour drive of Maine's campus.

Basically, leave us out of your FBS dreams. We can barely support FCS football.

To add to this, if you're a member of these states and you're interested in a State U. sort of education, UConn and BC are only a short drive away as well (and to a lesser extent UMass or Providence).

UNH, Maine, VM have to compete for UConn and BC in that "Red Sox Nation" sort-of college area, not to mention a huge concentration of Ivies (Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth), small liberal arts colleges (Bowdoin, Williams, Colby, Bates, Amherst, etc.) Ivy wannabes (BU) and "other" (Northeastern). It is much, much different than a state like Virginia, with two enormous flagships (VA and Tech), several very large second-tier state schools (JMU, ODU) and a much smaller number of other high-academic schools (W&M, Richmond) that are much more spread out. Liberty, too, is an enormous school that has its own lucrative niche as well in the state.

Even Pennsylvania is more spread out than the Northeast. We of course have state flagships (Penn State and Pitt) and our high-academic niche schools (Penn, Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette, Carnegie-Mellon, I'd throw Gettysburg in there) and a slew of other private colleges (Duquesne, St. Francis PA, Swarthmore, Moravian) that resemble the Amherst/Williams group packed into the Northeast. But that's mostly in the East part of the state. The second-level publics in Pennsylvania are Robert Morris (in the West) and a patchwork of D-II PSAC schools that cover the rest of the state. Every once in a while a PSAC team makes noise about jumping to Division I, but never with a vision of a "future ODU".

[Thumper 76]

Depends. I bet if you had FBS teams coming to Fargo instead of FCS ones you'd get even bigger crowds. The Fargo Dome environment is far better than probably a good chunk of the lower tier of FBS teams. Montana also.

I guarantee that there are a lot of FCS schools with better environments than a good chunk of lower tier FBS teams. Ever seen a picture of a crowd at Eastern Michigan? The fan that is there looks really excited. As for your "actively hunting for a invite" theory, hows that been working out for JMU and Liberty. I would actually argue that there are a bunch of teams that have no business being FBS in the first place due to the money being dumped into them just for a name.

I've posted this before, but I'll do it again with different words. For schools like an NDSU, Montana, or SDSU, there is not a real big reason to move up outside of ego basically. FCS wasn't created to be made up of private schools and start up programs. It was created to be a second tier of DI football so that the schools that play DI don't go bankrupt or run into the ground trying to compete with the like of Ohio State and Alabama. Then the money from TV contracts started to pour in so everybody wanted to jump up and try to grab some of the pie. Well, guess what. Now that well is going dry as the likes of ESPN realized that they were paying way to much and losing money on these contracts for conferences like CUSA and the Sunbelt. CUSA just had their old media contract expire. It went from each school getting almost $1 million per school to each school getting around $100,000. So that money isn't there anymore. You also don't make money off of a bowl game unless it is a large one. Many of these small schools lose money on bowl games due to the large amount of tickets they are required to buy from the bowl that go unused. So that money isn't there. For a lot of schools its almost an extra million dollars in scholarships alone to move up, due to Title IX. Plus your added travel for your Olympic sports to some far flung conference if you are located where the xDSUs are. Sure, in theory you can draw bigger crowds, because FBS right? Well, first you need to build a stadium that has that capacity. For NDSU it would cost around $120 million to build a bigger stadium thats up to snuff for FBS, and they won't do an open stadium. For SDSU you need likely another $40 million on top of the $64 million just put into the new stadium and the other $60 million for the SJAC. Also they are putting somewhere around $20 million or so into renovating Frost arena. Just to be on a competitive playing field at FBS both schools would also have to likely double their athletic department budgets. That money isn't coming from an extra 10-20,000 at a game. Which is assuming that you somehow beat the odds and managed to pull in an extra 10k people for some school like UL-L on a Tuesday night that is less exciting to most fans around here than a Youngstown or Northern Iowa, but by god it says FBS by their name right? So where does the money come from? Oh, right, the state will fund it, like you said they would right?

Now never mind that North Dakota is having a budget shortage and is putting cuts on all their universities and South Dakota won't publicly fund any facility improvements other than allowing bonding. Also forget that the other major state school in both states has the law school, which equals a bunch of people in the state government that won't be for any extra funding going to the "farm schools". Or the fact that when both xDSUs moved up they were fought every inch of the way by the state BOR and had extra hurdles to overcome just to be FCS. They wouldn't allow any student fees to fund the move up either, at least for SDSU, so you can be pretty damn certain they wouldn't allow it for a move to FBS. But they are "big bad public schools" so they will just magically get the funding.

Now, SDSU is working on building their attendance right now to fill their stadium they just built. But they aren't filling their 19,300 seat stadium yet. Now you need to bump it to 25-30,000 seats. Good luck with that. And in NDSUs situation, how long do you think bison fervor lasts when they are playing for some backwater bowl game on a Tuesday night against Eastern Michigan? They weren't packing out the Fargodome every weekend before this incredible championship run. I'm not saying that they all of a sudden will have people stop coming to games, but do you think they can grow their fan base to the point of 30,000 when they don't even get to be in the conversation for being in the playoffs? With Tuesday night games in a state larger in landmass than pretty much any southern state but less population than most large southern cities? Thats a tough ask to get someone to travel 2 hours on a Tuesday both ways for a game. Even NFL teams have a hard time filling their stadiums for Thursday night games, did you see the crowd for the Arizona/San Francisco game?

The next reason for FBS is exposure. Well, locally a lot of these teams get better exposure in our region than any Sunbelt team does. NDSU has their games on TV every game, state wide. SDSU has every home game on TV in a three or four state region. Every game for both schools is on ESPN3. Do you think that NDSU gets the publicity that they have been getting if they are a low FBS team? Nope. Whens the last time Gameday went to a Sunbelt or CUSA school? What gets more publicity, a G5 knocking off a favored FBS school, or an FCS team doing it? The FCS one of course. Its such a big deal because we are FCS. How about the FCS kickoff games on ESPN? The lower tier FBS schools get maybe one big tv game a year, and its on at a time and date that nobody watches it. The exposure is arguably better for the FCS schools around here than a lot of the FBS schools down there. If its arguable, why would you dump all that money into something that at best is just a step better.

So the reality is unless you get into a high G5 conference (and they aren't taking FCS schools), you aren't getting the money benefits of FBS, just the title to stick your chest out about. Thats a real expensive title. Until the make up of the playoff system in FBS is switched there isn't much reason to go. Also, compared to your big state schools down there, the Montanas and Dakotas of the world are tiny. In endownments and in students. Now I just listed the reasons that these particular schools have for not moving up. I didn't mention the reasons they won't get an invite. They are all in sparsely populated small media markets that don't bring in extra $ or recruiting area for other conferences. It is incredibly naive to believe that just because you have a good program you will get an invite. If thats how you think this works you obviously have not been paying attention to the way the world has been working in FBS college football. Why do you think the B1G added Maryland and Rutgers? They made insane money by adding them for their TV network because of the media markets it opened up. That and at least for the Dakotas, they are geographic outliers for pretty much any conference besides the B1G. And before you bring up the WAC, that thing is dead. Theres not financial or prestige incentive by reviving a dead and worthless FBS conference like that. None. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE FCS. Now quit your whining about being the poor poor small school. Your school decided to move up and wanted to be a part of it, so deal with it.

[walliver]

Some move-ups make more sense than others.
Coastal's move seems to be a "field of dreams" scheme, but was likely precipitated by the fact that neither the SoCon or CAA showed any interest. The majority of teams that "moved up" were never really FCS, it's just that the NCAA will not let a school start a FBS program from scratch.
GSU was always somewhat of an outlier in the modern SoCon, and in many ways is a better fit in the Belt (even if the Belt was FCS).
Most of the school's which moved function in the shadows of larger schools and don't like playing second fiddle to their larger brothers. In addition, there are a lot of smaller schools playing football in the south. A few of the SoCon schools would be considered small by D2 standards. A lot of the directional FCS schools don't like paying (and especially don't like losing to) these schools.
Some of these moves are "me too" moves. South Alabama didn't want to play at a lower level than Troy. App State fans always complained about East Carolina. FIU and FAU played catch-up with each other. Much of the drive at Jax State to move is related to Troy and USA playing at a "higher level".
Similar issues are in play with many D2-to-FCS moves, although there are significant academic issues with D2 driving some of the privates out (In the early 90's Wofford made a decision to move out of D2 and studied moves to both FCS and D3).

In the northeast and Midwest, there is much less incentive to move. If, for example, the MVFC was allowed to move to FCS, very little would change. The schedules would vary very little with the exception of a home game with a MAC or MWC team every year or two. Costs would be higher, and there would be 22 more scholarship players sitting on the bench, but very few benefits. NDSU, for example, might get one more regular season home game, but would lose the opportunity to play 3-4 post-season games at home.
The Dakota and Montana schools have no P5 behemoths overshadowing them and can be big dogs without FBS expense.
There probably isn't a lot of difference between the MVFC and the Sun Belt other than markedly higher expenses in the Belch. Despite the "FBS" label, LSU will never play at ULL. UGA will never travel to Statesboro. Sabin isn't taking the Tide to Troy. UT isn't going to MTSU or South Carolina to Conway. And I really don't understand the "Avis" "we're number two" attitude of playing at the second highest level of football.
My solution would be for the NCAA to step screwing with football. Allow the big boys to do whatever they want and create bowls and playoffs. Create a NCAA-sanctioned system where schools that choose to limit scholarships to 63 or so, limit coaching staffs, and play cost-containment football can participate in NCAA-sanctioned playoffs. Everybody else can do whatever they want and play in non-NCAA conferences. They can give 100 scholarships or none. They can pay players if they choose. Conferences can choose their own limits and policies.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The next reason for FBS is exposure. Well, locally a lot of these teams get better exposure in our region than any Sunbelt team does. NDSU has their games on TV every game, state wide. SDSU has every home game on TV in a three or four state region. Every game for both schools is on ESPN3. Do you think that NDSU gets the publicity that they have been getting if they are a low FBS team? Nope. Whens the last time Gameday went to a Sunbelt or CUSA school? What gets more publicity, a G5 knocking off a favored FBS school, or an FCS team doing it? The FCS one of course. Its such a big deal because we are FCS. How about the FCS kickoff games on ESPN? The lower tier FBS schools get maybe one big tv game a year, and its on at a time and date that nobody watches it. The exposure is arguably better for the FCS schools around here than a lot of the FBS schools down there. If its arguable, why would you dump all that money into something that at best is just a step better.

Overall a fantastic, comprehensive post, but that TV angle I want to expand on a little bit. With ESPN shunting the great majority of the Sun Belt, MAC conference games to ESPN3, what's really the difference in "exposure" in those conferences anymore to the Missouri Valley where the great majority of their conference games are on... ESPN3?

Last weekend, Lehigh played Holy Cross and Eastern Michigan played Western Michigan. They were both on the same distribution network, American Sports Network, and I believe the LU/HC game reached more affiliates. Isn't the "exposure" basically equal now, at least in the regular season?

More than ever the difference between "reach" is perhaps one home game vs. a P5 (if you're lucky, once every couple of years), and a New Year's Six Bowl (for one G5 team a year). Furthermore, NDSU has had more "exposure" on the ESPNs than most of the other G5 schools due to popular FBS away matchups, the kickoff bowl, and FCS playoff appearances. You'd be hard pressed to argue that most of the G5 teams (take, for example, Rice, Tulane, UCF, Western Michigan) have much, much better "reach" than NDSU.

[Daytripper]

I guarantee that there are a lot of FCS schools with better environments than a good chunk of lower tier FBS teams. Ever seen a picture of a crowd at Eastern Michigan? The fan that is there looks really excited. As for your "actively hunting for a invite" theory, hows that been working out for JMU and Liberty. I would actually argue that there are a bunch of teams that have no business being FBS in the first place due to the money being dumped into them just for a name.

I've posted this before, but I'll do it again with different words. For schools like an NDSU, Montana, or SDSU, there is not a real big reason to move up outside of ego basically. FCS wasn't created to be made up of private schools and start up programs. It was created to be a second tier of DI football so that the schools that play DI don't go bankrupt or run into the ground trying to compete with the like of Ohio State and Alabama. Then the money from TV contracts started to pour in so everybody wanted to jump up and try to grab some of the pie. Well, guess what. Now that well is going dry as the likes of ESPN realized that they were paying way to much and losing money on these contracts for conferences like CUSA and the Sunbelt. CUSA just had their old media contract expire. It went from each school getting almost $1 million per school to each school getting around $100,000. So that money isn't there anymore. You also don't make money off of a bowl game unless it is a large one. Many of these small schools lose money on bowl games due to the large amount of tickets they are required to buy from the bowl that go unused. So that money isn't there. For a lot of schools its almost an extra million dollars in scholarships alone to move up, due to Title IX. Plus your added travel for your Olympic sports to some far flung conference if you are located where the xDSUs are. Sure, in theory you can draw bigger crowds, because FBS right? Well, first you need to build a stadium that has that capacity. For NDSU it would cost around $120 million to build a bigger stadium thats up to snuff for FBS, and they won't do an open stadium. For SDSU you need likely another $40 million on top of the $64 million just put into the new stadium and the other $60 million for the SJAC. Also they are putting somewhere around $20 million or so into renovating Frost arena. Just to be on a competitive playing field at FBS both schools would also have to likely double their athletic department budgets. That money isn't coming from an extra 10-20,000 at a game. Which is assuming that you somehow beat the odds and managed to pull in an extra 10k people for some school like UL-L on a Tuesday night that is less exciting to most fans around here than a Youngstown or Northern Iowa, but by god it says FBS by their name right? So where does the money come from? Oh, right, the state will fund it, like you said they would right?

Now never mind that North Dakota is having a budget shortage and is putting cuts on all their universities and South Dakota won't publicly fund any facility improvements other than allowing bonding. Also forget that the other major state school in both states has the law school, which equals a bunch of people in the state government that won't be for any extra funding going to the "farm schools". Or the fact that when both xDSUs moved up they were fought every inch of the way by the state BOR and had extra hurdles to overcome just to be FCS. They wouldn't allow any student fees to fund the move up either, at least for SDSU, so you can be pretty damn certain they wouldn't allow it for a move to FBS. But they are "big bad public schools" so they will just magically get the funding.

Now, SDSU is working on building their attendance right now to fill their stadium they just built. But they aren't filling their 19,300 seat stadium yet. Now you need to bump it to 25-30,000 seats. Good luck with that. And in NDSUs situation, how long do you think bison fervor lasts when they are playing for some backwater bowl game on a Tuesday night against Eastern Michigan? They weren't packing out the Fargodome every weekend before this incredible championship run. I'm not saying that they all of a sudden will have people stop coming to games, but do you think they can grow their fan base to the point of 30,000 when they don't even get to be in the conversation for being in the playoffs? With Tuesday night games in a state larger in landmass than pretty much any southern state but less population than most large southern cities? Thats a tough ask to get someone to travel 2 hours on a Tuesday both ways for a game. Even NFL teams have a hard time filling their stadiums for Thursday night games, did you see the crowd for the Arizona/San Francisco game?

The next reason for FBS is exposure. Well, locally a lot of these teams get better exposure in our region than any Sunbelt team does. NDSU has their games on TV every game, state wide. SDSU has every home game on TV in a three or four state region. Every game for both schools is on ESPN3. Do you think that NDSU gets the publicity that they have been getting if they are a low FBS team? Nope. Whens the last time Gameday went to a Sunbelt or CUSA school? What gets more publicity, a G5 knocking off a favored FBS school, or an FCS team doing it? The FCS one of course. Its such a big deal because we are FCS. How about the FCS kickoff games on ESPN? The lower tier FBS schools get maybe one big tv game a year, and its on at a time and date that nobody watches it. The exposure is arguably better for the FCS schools around here than a lot of the FBS schools down there. If its arguable, why would you dump all that money into something that at best is just a step better.

So the reality is unless you get into a high G5 conference (and they aren't taking FCS schools), you aren't getting the money benefits of FBS, just the title to stick your chest out about. Thats a real expensive title. Until the make up of the playoff system in FBS is switched there isn't much reason to go. Also, compared to your big state schools down there, the Montanas and Dakotas of the world are tiny. In endownments and in students. Now I just listed the reasons that these particular schools have for not moving up. I didn't mention the reasons they won't get an invite. They are all in sparsely populated small media markets that don't bring in extra $ or recruiting area for other conferences. It is incredibly naive to believe that just because you have a good program you will get an invite. If thats how you think this works you obviously have not been paying attention to the way the world has been working in FBS college football. Why do you think the B1G added Maryland and Rutgers? They made insane money by adding them for their TV network because of the media markets it opened up. That and at least for the Dakotas, they are geographic outliers for pretty much any conference besides the B1G. And before you bring up the WAC, that thing is dead. Theres not financial or prestige incentive by reviving a dead and worthless FBS conference like that. None. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE FCS. Now quit your whining about being the poor poor small school. Your school decided to move up and wanted to be a part of it, so deal with it.


Great post.

[BEAR]

SPEED xlolx

[Catbooster]

Some great posts here explaining why most of us don't want to move "up" to FBS (and likely won't because an attractive conference invitation won't be coming our way). IMO, moving to FBS is almost entirely about 1. prestige/ego and 2. money. There's also politics when you're talking about state universities, but that would vary for each state. Others have made the points about exposure and prestige not really being a significant improvement by moving to (G5) FBS, and the expenses generally being greater than the increase in revenue.

Montana is bigger than Georgia, North Carolina and South Carolina combined. You could throw in Rhode island and we'd still have room left over. However, our population just recently went over a million (1,015,615 - 2013 census). GA, NC and SC have a combined pop. of 24,615,066 (you could add RI with a pop just slightly higher than MT at 1,051,511). I think this illustrates why nobody is too interested in our market when it comes time to look for a new conference member - a small population spread over a large area.

You seem to think since they are state universities they can just get the additional funding. With this few people footing the bill, you will have a very hard time finding a member of the board of regents or a politician at the capital who will propose paying for a move to FBS.

[Bucs2016]

SPEED xlolx

Yes finally someone got the answer correct.

[bobcathpdevil56]

http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width620/img/datacentral/photo/21065840-mmmain.png

Why did someone take a baseball bat to Michigan in this map?

[Ivytalk]

I attribute it to the natural Southern impulse toward secession.xcoolx

[Redbird007]

I promise if NDSU and Montana began a campaign to move into one...someone would invite.

You have lost your mind if you ever had one.

[Redbird007]

I think it has to do with the fact that in order to sleep with their wives at night, these presidents have to convince themselves that they are the presidents of a "big-time" school that "rubs shoulders" with Michigan and Alabama, even if the concept of Eastern Michigan rubbing elbows with Michigan or USF rubbing elbows with Florida State in any way is bat**** ridiculous. It's sort-of like a very, very expensive (mostly) Southern Viagra for university presidents, paid for by state and federal tax dollars.
Michigan president and alums would shutter at thought of being lumped into same conversation with Alabama.

[Thumper 76]

Why did someone take a baseball bat to Michigan in this map?
Apparently over the course of having the U.P. they melded into Lake Michigan and Lake Superior xlolx

[CHIP72]

Apparently over the course of having the U.P. they melded into Lake Michigan and Lake Superior xlolx

A couple of those Michigan-born NFL players went through a tadpole stage living in Lake Michigan before they matured and moved to dry land.


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[The Eagle's Cliff]

Just stay away from our guy please. No hunting allowed in Charleston.
That's exactly who we've been talking about.

[1984]

Depends. I bet if you had FBS teams coming to Fargo instead of FCS ones you'd get even bigger crowds. The Fargo Dome environment is far better than probably a good chunk of the lower tier of FBS teams. Montana also.

The Fargo Dome has been sold out every home game for the last 7 years. You simply cant get more people in it. Few people are going to drive 4+ hours, one way, from the western part of the state in great numbers. You may get 25 to 30 people but that is all. People are more likely to attend their local high school or local JR college game. Many small town school district have to coop with 2 or 3 other high schools to even field a 9 man football team.

[Twentysix]

Overall a fantastic, comprehensive post, but that TV angle I want to expand on a little bit. With ESPN shunting the great majority of the Sun Belt, MAC conference games to ESPN3, what's really the difference in "exposure" in those conferences anymore to the Missouri Valley where the great majority of their conference games are on... ESPN3?

Last weekend, Lehigh played Holy Cross and Eastern Michigan played Western Michigan. They were both on the same distribution network, American Sports Network, and I believe the LU/HC game reached more affiliates. Isn't the "exposure" basically equal now, at least in the regular season?

More than ever the difference between "reach" is perhaps one home game vs. a P5 (if you're lucky, once every couple of years), and a New Year's Six Bowl (for one G5 team a year). Furthermore, NDSU has had more "exposure" on the ESPNs than most of the other G5 schools due to popular FBS away matchups, the kickoff bowl, and FCS playoff appearances. You'd be hard pressed to argue that most of the G5 teams (take, for example, Rice, Tulane, UCF, Western Michigan) have much, much better "reach" than NDSU.

All I know is that I live in San Diego California and I see NDSU stuff everywhere, people in clothes, stuff on TV, games on ESPN and ESPN3. IMO you'd be hard pressed to find a football fan that has never heard of NDSU now. It's certainly due to a combination of things, but the availability of content to way more people and the internet as a delivery platform sure doesn't hurt.

Now, I'm not claming that people who don't care about NDSU are tuning into ESPN3 to watch our games, but they also aren't tuning into the Lousiana-Layfayette game either.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Apparently over the course of having the U.P. they melded into Lake Michigan and Lake Superior xlolx

Those poor Yoopers! A fine group of people up there!

[Catbooster]

The Fargo Dome has been sold out every home game for the last 7 years. You simply cant get more people in it. Few people are going to drive 4+ hours, one way, from the western part of the state in great numbers. You may get 25 to 30 people but that is all. People are more likely to attend their local high school or local JR college game. Many small town school district have to coop with 2 or 3 other high schools to even field a 9 man football team.

You guys play 9 man? We do 8 man for the bigger class C schools and 6 man for the smaller ones.

[Evolution Prime]

You guys play 9 man? We do 8 man for the bigger class C schools and 6 man for the smaller ones.

South Dakota does 9 man football as well. Three classes of it, in fact, to go along with the four classes of 11 man. No 6 man football for us yet.

[Twentysix]

You guys play 9 man? We do 8 man for the bigger class C schools and 6 man for the smaller ones.

ND plays 9 man and 11 man football.

I believe there are like 100 football teams in ND and about half of them play 11 man and half play 9 man.

High schools or co-ops with less than 250 students play 9 man and are in class b and high schools with more are in class A (or A AA AAA for football) and play 11 man football.

[Catatonic]

A couple of those Michigan-born NFL players went through a tadpole stage living in Lake Michigan before they matured and moved to dry land.


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#globalwarming

[bobcathpdevil56]

You guys play 9 man? We do 8 man for the bigger class C schools and 6 man for the smaller ones.

Montana should be playing 9 man. Hopefully with the changes to HS football that will happen this November, we will move to 9 man. It will make it much easier for teams to move from Class B to Class C, when their enrollments change.

[Bucs2016]

All I know is that I live in San Diego California and I see NDSU stuff everywhere, people in clothes, stuff on TV, games on ESPN and ESPN3. IMO you'd be hard pressed to find a football fan that has never heard of NDSU now. It's certainly due to a combination of things, but the availability of content to way more people and the internet as a delivery platform sure doesn't hurt.

Now, I'm not claming that people who don't care about NDSU are tuning into ESPN3 to watch our games, but they also aren't tuning into the Lousiana-Layfayette game either.

I agree. As far as TV goes....I'd ABSOLUTELY tune in to watch NDSU vs Texas. No chance in hell I'd watch Texas vs Wyoming or Idaho or UNC Charlotte. So there's a market for teams like that if they're really good.

[BadlandsGrizFan]

You have lost your mind if you ever had one.

Montana gets screwed over by our Board of Regents tho....they have made it clear that the Griz cant move up ever unless Monatana State gets to come too.....

Big brother cant go to the movie with his sexy girlfriend unless he brings his stupid little brother!!!!

[Panther88]

Population, enrollment, resources.

Winner winner chicken dinner! Plus the lure of major revenue generation via FBS'dom.

[bobcathpdevil56]

Montana gets screwed over by our Board of Regents tho....they have made it clear that the Griz cant move up ever unless Monatana State gets to come too.....

Big brother cant go to the movie with his sexy girlfriend unless he brings his stupid little brother!!!!

I understand the little brother analogy, but the "stupid" part is completely ridiculous. Plus the only "sexy" girls in Missoula are ones who don't shave their legs

[Twentysix]

I understand the little brother analogy, but the "stupid" part is completely ridiculous. Plus the only "sexy" girls in Missoula are ones who don't shave their legs

I see that you've got a thing for French girls.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

App State dominated Georgia Southern 34-10 tonight in Statesboro.

GSU likely won't be bowling this year. The Eagles would probably be a 3rd or 4th place team in the SoCon this season. The Mountaineers appear, at least defensively, to be the best team in the SBC.

App State seems much more prepared than GSU to be successful at the FBS level (relatively speaking) over the long haul. Time will obviously tell that's true....

[BisonFan02]

App State dominated Georgia Southern 34-10 tonight in Statesboro.

GSU likely won't be bowling this year. The Eagles would probably be a 3rd or 4th place team in the SoCon this season. The Mountaineers appear, at least defensively, to be the best team in the SBC.

App State seems much more prepared than GSU to be successful at the FBS level (relatively speaking) over the long haul. Time will obviously tell that's true....

Neither will....the wins will trickle down....so will the attendance....and the novelty.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

App State dominated Georgia Southern 34-10 tonight in Statesboro.

GSU likely won't be bowling this year. The Eagles would probably be a 3rd or 4th place team in the SoCon this season. The Mountaineers appear, at least defensively, to be the best team in the SBC.

App State seems much more prepared than GSU to be successful at the FBS level (relatively speaking) over the long haul. Time will obviously tell that's true....


Neither will....the wins will trickle down....so will the attendance....and the novelty.

The whole issue with App State and the G5 is that the Miss Congeniality Bowl prizes are such a step down from the New Year's Six Bowl G5 invitee, which is almost a pure judgement call. App State could go 9-2 but might be sitting behind Navy, Western Michigan and Boise State for the Bowl That Most People Might Recognize. And App won't get to play any of them to get the chance to prove they are better - even though they are actually a pretty good team.

[walliver]

App State dominated Georgia Southern 34-10 tonight in Statesboro.

GSU likely won't be bowling this year. The Eagles would probably be a 3rd or 4th place team in the SoCon this season. The Mountaineers appear, at least defensively, to be the best team in the SBC.

App State seems much more prepared than GSU to be successful at the FBS level (relatively speaking) over the long haul. Time will obviously tell that's true....

App State was in a much better position to move. A much higher sports budget, better facilities, more teams, and significantly higher football attendance. GSU has been a football-first school with an occasionally decent basketball or baseball team, but outside of football, fairly mediocre facilities.

I still think App would be happier in C-USA with ODU and UNCC.

Both ASU and GSU are really really better prepared for FBS than CCU.