Princeton-Rutgers Football 2019

[Son of Eli]

If you would like to see Princeton play Rutgers in 2019 to mark the 150th anniversary of college football please sign this petition:

https://www.change.org/p/rutgers-university-a-rutgers-vs-princeton-150th-anniversary-game-of-the-first-football-game-ever-in-2019?recruiter=29992930&utm_source=petitions_share&utm_medium=copylink

Here is some background on the issues surrounding this proposed game:

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2014/11/on_anniversary_of_first_college_football_game_rutg ers_and_princeton_coaches_talk_about_possibility_o .html

[RootinFerDukes]

We need a petition to get this game on the schedule?! Seriously?! ESPN should be jumping at the chance to air this on 11/6/19 on a Wednesday night on their flagship channel.

The game was even played at Rutgers, so the Big 10 team doesn't have to eat its pride and "play at an FCS school".

[DFW HOYA]

This would require Princeton to play two weeks early, of course.

This will take more than a petition, of course. It will take a network to tell the Big 10 what to do.

It certainly works for the ACC, which has been following ESPN's direction for years:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/10/boston-college-athletic-director-gene-defillipo-apology-acc-expansion-espn/1#.V6i4TfkrLIU

[Son of Eli]

We need a petition to get this game on the schedule?! Seriously?! ESPN should be jumping at the chance to air this on 11/6/19 on a Wednesday night on their flagship channel.

The game was even played at Rutgers, so the Big 10 team doesn't have to eat its pride and "play at an FCS

school".

Princeton needs to be convinced to play it. Bob Surace, the Princeton coach, is ambivalent towards the game. Here's his quote on the matter from the previously posted article:


"Our previous AD, Gary Walters, talked about it back in January but it didn't really go anywhere,'' Surace said. "When our new AD, Mollie Marcoux, got the job, I guess she spoke with (Rutgers AD) Julie (Hermann) about it. (Marcoux) actually sat down with me about it, and I shared my concern that it doesn't make a lot of sense to play a team that has several more games under their belt than we have. It's a Big Ten team. There's nothing to gain for us from a football perspective. As good as they are, that would put us in a difficult position. It sounded like it kind of ended then.
"But you never know. It's five years away. To me, that's an eternity.''

[RootinFerDukes]

omg if ivy league schools are this indifferent about athletics, why even sponsor them to begin with? why not just drop all programs and then you'll really look solely focused on academics.

[Son of Eli]

omg if ivy league schools are this indifferent about athletics, why even sponsor them to begin with? why not just drop all programs and then you'll really look solely focused on academics.


You have no idea how frustrating it is to be to an Ivy League football fan sometimes. That's why I'm asking for the support of the AGS community on this petition.

Hopefully if this game gets played there will be a paradigm shift amongst the Ivy League Presidents resulting in FCS playoff participation.

[dgtw]

Whoever wrote this article makes Rutgers sound like a major power. I think they'd win, but it's not like Princeton would be playing Ohio State.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JSUSoutherner]

Whoever wrote this article makes Rutgers sound like a major power. I think they'd win, but it's not like Princeton would be playing Ohio State.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But... But.... B1G! Power conference! They have to be good. xnodx

[UNIFanSince1983]

Hey I mean Rutgers did win 4 games last year. Granted only 1 was over any team that was in a bowl, and the other two FBS teams they beat had 2 wins combined. But they did get 4 wins last year. Sounds like a powerhouse to me.

[RootinFerDukes]

Could this be a matter of pride for Princeton? You have two of the "first" college football programs. One not only won that first game but is now in a Power Five conference (Big 10) at the pinnacle of modern day college football, albeit not particularly competitive in that conference or nationally. Meanwhile, you have Princeton, that along with their Ivy League brethren were once considered some of the top tier of college football before they chose to de-emphasize big time college sports and go I-AA in 1978. They may not want the stark national reminder of just how distant Ivy programs are from their "glory days".

It may be better to just not compete and hope no one notices.

[Go Green]

Whoever wrote this article makes Rutgers sound like a major power. I think they'd win, but it's not like Princeton would be playing Ohio State.




Last time Princeton played a Big 10 team, they lost 37-0 at home. It was 1986 against Northwestern--back in the days when the Wildcats were considered one of the worst D-IA teams out there.

[Son of Eli]

Last time Princeton played a Big 10 team, they lost 37-0 at home. It was 1986 against Northwestern--back in the days when the Wildcats were considered one of the worst D-IA teams out there.

Go Green, why are you stuck in 1986? You know as well as I do that was a very bad 2-8 Princeton team and that the caliber of Ivy League football has vastly improved since then. Many Ivy players today had scholarship offers from FBS schools, including the Big 10.

Instead, let's look at a more recent year, 2013. Sagarin predicts Rutgers would have beaten Princeton by just 6 points if they had played that year.

I know you hate Princeton, but let's try to be objective.

[Son of Eli]

Could this be a matter of pride for Princeton? You have two of the "first" college football programs. One not only won that first game but is now in a Power Five conference (Big 10) at the pinnacle of modern day college football, albeit not particularly competitive in that conference or nationally. Meanwhile, you have Princeton, that along with their Ivy League brethren were once considered some of the top tier of college football before they chose to de-emphasize big time college sports and go I-AA in 1978. They may not want the stark national reminder of just how distant Ivy programs are from their "glory days".

It may be better to just not compete and hope no one notices.


I think you're on to something. The demotion to FCS in 1982 really hurt the Ivy League's pride. To deal with it some act as if they rejected the FBS out of superior moral scruples instead.

Also, there seems to be the sentiment that the chance of losing 37-0 to an FBS opponent is too shameful to be risked. They'd rather play a pioneer league team like Davidson and run up the score. So pride is one reason a game like this is frowned upon. See Go Green's post.

But I think the main reason is mainly ignorance. Ivy League people are conditioned to believe they can't compete at that level of football anymore, despite all evidence to the contrary. Again, see Go Green's comment as evidence of this delusion.

[dgtw]

Another issue is that Rutgers could not count the game toward the six wins needed to get to a bowl game since Princeton does not give scholarships.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Son of Eli]

Another issue is that Rutgers could not count the game toward the six wins needed to get to a bowl game since Princeton does not give scholarships.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm sure the NCAA would give a waiver for the historical significance of the game, just like they did for the 2014 Yale-Army game.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

This would cast too much positive spotlight on Rutgers, which is just an embarrassment of a program and athletic department, in general.

[Go Green]

Go Green, why are you stuck in 1986?

Because that's the year before Princeton's current coach played football for Princeton. The guess here is that he's got bad memories (or at least was told bad things) about the 1986 P-N game.

Also worth noting is that Princeton hasn't played a I-A/FBS team since. It's not like *I'm* the roadblock here. xcoolx

[Son of Eli]

Because that's the year before Princeton's current coach played football for Princeton. The guess here is that he's got bad memories (or at least was told bad things) about the 1986 P-N game.

Also worth noting is that Princeton hasn't played a I-A/FBS team since. It's not like *I'm* the roadblock here. xcoolx


Then I guess Surace must not want to play Cornell anymore either, after learning that in 1986 Cornell beat Princeton 39-8. In fact, I imagine Surace must want to leave the Ivy League all together and take Princeton to the NESCAC in Division 3 using that logic.

[Sader87]

If Holy Cross can play BC, Colgate can play Syracuse, Fordham can play Navy etc etc....there is no reason Princeton can't play Rutgers. All the FCS schools will/would be prohibitive undahdawgs in these contests but they could (and should) be played imo. Pretty weak sauce from Ol' Nassau imo.

[Go...gate]

Princeton won't even play Colgate any more, even though they won the last game between the schools this past season.

[DFW HOYA]

If Holy Cross can play BC, Colgate can play Syracuse, Fordham can play Navy etc etc....there is no reason Princeton can't play Rutgers.

And Georgetown and Villanova. Oh, wait...xbangx

[LUHawker]

Princeton won't even play Colgate any more, even though they won the last game between the schools this past season.

Why not? Is there something going on between the two schools? LU and LC play Princeton nearly every year these days. Colgate seems like a natural. Is it distance?

[Go Green]

Why not? Is there something going on between the two schools? LU and LC play Princeton nearly every year these days. Colgate seems like a natural. Is it distance?

Could be that Princeton wants to diversify opponents, and doesn't feel any particular affinity for Colgate. That's pretty much what Dartmouth did with Colgate.

Princeton and Colgate have played every other year for the past 20 years. Maybe a break isn't the worst thing in the world.

[Go...gate]

Could be that Princeton wants to diversify opponents, and doesn't feel any particular affinity for Colgate. That's pretty much what Dartmouth did with Colgate.

Princeton and Colgate have played every other year for the past 20 years. Maybe a break isn't the worst thing in the world.

Princeton and Colgate have been playing a lot longer than that. The first game was in 1911, and the teams placed annually for many years. Princeton leads the all-time series 27-26-1. Also, Go Green, this was not a "break" in the series. Gary Walters opted out of the remaining games in the series and replaced us with Davidson and Georgetown, among others. I am advised that Princeton's new AD has no intention of making a change.

As far as the Dartmouth - Colgate series (which dates to 1905) is concerned, don't we have a game coming up with you guys in Hanover in 2018 or 2019?

[Son of Eli]

Princeton and Colgate have been playing a lot longer than that. The first game was in 1911, and the teams placed annually for many years. Princeton leads the all-time series 27-26-1. Also, Go Green, this was not a "break" in the series. Gary Walters opted out of the remaining games in the series and replaced us with Davidson and Georgetown, among others. I am advised that Princeton's new AD has no intention of making a change.

As far as the Dartmouth - Colgate series (which dates to 1905) is concerned, don't we have a game coming up with you guys in Hanover in 2018 or 2019?



Yes. Here is Dartmouth's 2019 schedule:




2019
(0-0, 0-0 Ivy)






Sept. 21
A
Jacksonville







Sept. 28
H
Colgate







Oct. 5
A
Penn*







Oct. 12
H
Yale* (Homecoming)







Oct. 19
A
Marist







Oct. 26
H
Columbia*







Nov. 2
A
Harvard*







Nov. 9
H
Princeton*







Nov. 16
H
Cornell*







Nov. 23
A
Brown*

[Sandlapper Spike]

ESPN should be jumping at the chance to air this on 11/6/19 on a Wednesday night on their flagship channel.


I'm not so sure about that. What would the ratings be for this game?

Would it draw interest from major college football fans, or casual sports fans, or would it only be watched by fans of the two schools along with a few diehards?

I don't know how much juice there would be to watch a bad Big 10 program play an FCS school on a Wednesday night, regardless of the game's historical overtones. At any rate, I don't see ESPN making a huge push for the matchup.

[dgtw]

I can see them carrying it just to have fill on a night where they normally wouldn't have football. But I don't see it garnering huge national interest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RootinFerDukes]

I'm not so sure about that. What would the ratings be for this game?

Would it draw interest from major college football fans, or casual sports fans, or would it only be watched by fans of the two schools along with a few diehards?

I don't know how much juice there would be to watch a bad Big 10 program play an FCS school on a Wednesday night, regardless of the game's historical overtones. At any rate, I don't see ESPN making a huge push for the matchup.

As with any of their programming, when you fail to promote a game worth a crap, such as the FCS Title game, it's no wonder no one watches it. If they actually ran a brief commercial or even one of those commercial cut-aways that list the games read by the announcer, it'll help. If you point out it's Princeton and Rutgers, two schools "anyone has heard of" and that it's the 150th anniversary of the first game of American Football ever played, some people are going to care.

It's all about how much effort ESPN puts into marketing something.

[Sader87]

Princeton-Rutgers 1969 ....audio and still pics only

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_fol2Twsr4

[Go Green]

As far as the Dartmouth - Colgate series (which dates to 1905) is concerned, don't we have a game coming up with you guys in Hanover in 2018 or 2019?

Dartmouth and Colgate played annually from the mid-1990s to the late 2000s. That's over. An occasional game is fine.

My gut is that is what Princeton will do at some point. I can get scheduling Georgetown (DC is fertile Ivy alum/recruiting ground). But Princeton will get bored with Davidson.

[RichH2]

[QUOTE=Son of Eli;2360384]Yes. Here is Dartmouth's 2019 schedule:


[TABLE="width: 100%, align: left"]

2019
(0-0, 0-0 Ivy)






Sept. 21
A
Jacksonville







Sept. 28
H
Colgate







Oct. 5
A
Penn*







Oct. 12
H
Yale* (Homecoming)







Oct. 19
A
Marist







Oct. 26
H
Columbia*







Nov. 2
A
Harvard*







Nov. 9
H
Princeton*







Nov. 16
H
Cornell*





[TR]

Nov. 23
A


Jacksonville and Marist? Really? Low hanging fruit for OOC games.

[Son of Eli]

Dartmouth will also be playing Stetson and Valparaiso in upcoming seasons.

[Go Green]

Dartmouth will also be playing Stetson and Valparaiso in upcoming seasons.

I'll be very surprised if we play either of those schools more than twice.

Of course, I thought Sacred Heart was a joke of an opponent when the games were scheduled. And they beat us twice. :(

[RichH2]

I'll be very surprised if we play either of those schools more than twice.

Of course, I thought Sacred Heart was a joke of an opponent when the games were scheduled. And they beat us twice. :(

Yeah those darn NEC teams. Not at all comparable to PFL. 40 scholliesvplus need aid up to 63 max. Their best are no longer cupcakes.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Dartmouth and Colgate played annually from the mid-1990s to the late 2000s. That's over. An occasional game is fine.

My gut is that is what Princeton will do at some point. I can get scheduling Georgetown (DC is fertile Ivy alum/recruiting ground). But Princeton will get bored with Davidson.

I remember when Dartmouth's OOC schedule was always UNH, Holy Cross and Colgate. In the late 2000's, you guys were hitting some tough times (including an 0-10 season) and downgraded the schedule. Bucknell replaced Colgate and SHU replaced UNH.

Truth be told the 2019 schedule is embarrassing for a program that is on fire right now but it doesn't vary much from what the rest of the Ivies are doing. Playing Davidson is probably worse than playing Amherst or Williams.

[Son of Eli]

I remember when Dartmouth's OOC schedule was always UNH, Holy Cross and Colgate. In the late 2000's, you guys were hitting some tough times (including an 0-10 season) and downgraded the schedule. Bucknell replaced Colgate and SHU replaced UNH.

Truth be told the 2019 schedule is embarrassing for a program that is on fire right now but it doesn't vary much from what the rest of the Ivies are doing. Playing Davidson is probably worse than playing Amherst or Williams.

Not all Ivies are scheduling down. Here are Yale' s OOC opponents these past four years (2013-2016):

Colgate
Cal Poly
Fordham
Maine
Lehigh
Army.

I'm pleased to say that Yale has no Pioneer or NEC teams scheduled up through 2018 either, the last scheduled year released. Only Patriot League and CAA teams are on Yale's future 2017-18 schedules.

Of course, I would love to see Yale play a Big Ten program like Rutgers as well. I think Coach Reno of Yale would jump at such an opportunity.

Unfortunately, it appears the opportunity to play Rutgers will be wasted by Surace and Princeton. Too bad for the league. Maybe on the 200th anniversary.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Sons,

I guess you could give Penn high marks for scheduling too. Villanova, Fordham and William & Mary all on recent slates dating back to 2012.

[Go...gate]

Not all Ivies are scheduling down. Here are Yale' s OOC opponents these past four years (2013-2016):

Colgate
Cal Poly
Fordham
Maine
Lehigh
Army.

I'm pleased to say that Yale has no Pioneer or NEC teams scheduled up through 2018 either, the last scheduled year released. Only Patriot League and CAA teams are on Yale's future 2017-18 schedules.

Of course, I would love to see Yale play a Big Ten program like Rutgers as well. I think Coach Reno of Yale would jump at such an opportunity.

Unfortunately, it appears the opportunity to play Rutgers will be wasted by Surace and Princeton. Too bad for the league. Maybe on the 200th anniversary.

Yale and Penn have never been afraid to step up in scheduling. Dartmouth seems to be scheduling games so alumni outside the east can see the the Big Green, which makes a great deal of sense.

[Go Green]

I remember when Dartmouth's OOC schedule was always UNH, Holy Cross and Colgate. In the late 2000's, you guys were hitting some tough times (including an 0-10 season) and downgraded the schedule. Bucknell replaced Colgate and SHU replaced UNH.



And as fate would have it, we started becoming competitive once we dropped that UNH-Colgate-HC slate. We immediately went from Ivy bottom feeder to middle-of-the-pack Ivy team. And worked our way up every year until we finally got a championship last season.

2016's OOC schedule is as tough as any Dartmouth has had-- UNH, Holy Cross, and Towson.

[Go...gate]

Yeah those darn NEC teams. Not at all comparable to PFL. 40 scholliesvplus need aid up to 63 max. Their best are no longer cupcakes.

The NEC is definitely getting stronger as a conference. Still strange to not include Monmouth in the NEC, but they are definitely trying to "build-up" the new ballpark certainly shows that. Wonder how long MU will remain in the Big South?

[NY Crusader 2010]

Monmouth ditched the NEC for the MAAC for all-sports so they will not be admitted as a football-only member. They are stuck in the Big South for now. Can't see the PL or CAA taking them on in the foreseeable future.

[UNHWildcat18]

The NEC is definitely getting stronger as a conference. Still strange to not include Monmouth in the NEC, but they are definitely trying to "build-up" the new ballpark certainly shows that. Wonder how long MU will remain in the Big South?

I would not be surprised if a few NEC teams push for 63. I just don't see the 40 limit lasting for much longer.

[DFW HOYA]

I would not be surprised if a few NEC teams push for 63. I just don't see the 40 limit lasting for much longer.

And therein lies the problem. There is now no middle ground, and we collectively wonder why more schools haven't returned to football. A school like Maryland-Eastern Shore or Fairfield could make a case to support a 15-20 scholarship program, but if the only option is 63, all bets are off.

I don't buy the idea that the entire NEC will go to 63. I'm not sure what a St. Francis or a Duquesne gains with 63 scholarships that they don't have now, but it begs the question whether a 20-40 scholarship conference can be otherwise competitive.

[UNHWildcat18]

And therein lies the problem. There is now no middle ground, and we collectively wonder why more schools haven't returned to football. A school like Maryland-Eastern Shore or Fairfield could make a case to support a 15-20 scholarship program, but if the only option is 63, all bets are off.

I don't buy the idea that the entire NEC will go to 63. I'm not sure what a St. Francis or a Duquesne gains with 63 scholarships that they don't have now, but it begs the question whether a 20-40 scholarship conference can be otherwise competitive.

Didn't say all of them will, but I don't see Bryant or CCSU staying at 40 for another 5-10 years IMHO. Personally I don't give a raggedy **** about any pioneer/MAAC start up team. i want more competitive and popular football in the northeast, and we aren't getting there with pioneer teams or 40 limit NEC teams. I don't really care that much about the whole situation however

[DFW HOYA]

i want more competitive and popular football in the northeast, and we aren't getting there with pioneer teams or 40 limit NEC teams. I don't really care that much about the whole situation however

There is just one Pioneer team in the northeast, Marist. They aren't the cause of the lack of popularity in NE football.

[UNHWildcat18]

There is just one Pioneer team in the northeast, Marist. They aren't the cause of the lack of popularity in NE football.

You mentioned Fairfield looking at the field and saying hey we can do 20 but not 63 and killing the idea of football if 63 was the only option. If that's the case go d2/3 or don't sponsor it because you don't belong in FCS. I want it to be more competitive. while I want UNH to go undefeated against New England teams, I'm not a fan of UNH scheduling CCSU if they come and lose 52-7. The teams that want and can afford to be more competitive in the future I just don't see staying at 40 for another 5-10 years. I was thrilled when the PL went to 60 limit. I want to beat HC every time we play them but I wish them the best of luck outside of our game.

[aceinthehole]

And therein lies the problem. There is now no middle ground, and we collectively wonder why more schools haven't returned to football. A school like Maryland-Eastern Shore or Fairfield could make a case to support a 15-20 scholarship program, but if the only option is 63, all bets are off.

I don't buy the idea that the entire NEC will go to 63. I'm not sure what a St. Francis or a Duquesne gains with 63 scholarships that they don't have now, but it begs the question whether a 20-40 scholarship conference can be otherwise competitive.

The NEC is basically now a hybrid model. Schools can, and do, offer up to 63 Equivalences as a combination of up to 40 Athletic Scholarships and 23 Grants-in-Aid.

Wagner, the 3rd smallest FCS school by enrollment, has been using this formula for years and has scheduled FBS games for 5 straight seasons. If they can do it, Georgetown or any private school can.

CCSU and Duquesne have both scheduled FBS teams in past as non-counters; Central should be "bowl counter" status starting next year and has future games at Ball State and Syracuse, while it was reported that the Dukes appear on the verge of jumping into playing FBS teams as well.

Robert Morris is presumed to reach the rolling 57.5 equivalency mark soon, as they are scheduled to play at Buffalo in 2019.

Bryant has invested into athletics and football, so I would expect them to become a counter and schedule FBS opponents very soon; and I wouldn't be surprised if even Saint Francis can reach the magic number and get a game with a MAC or Sun Belt team in the future.

[RichH2]

Agree ace. Too many underestimate the impact of 40 plus 23. Gives NEC excellent flexibility in recruiting. It actually gives them more aid funding than the PL. Moreover, NEC has no AI or conference roster cap.
Monmouth is an outlier in the Big South. Dint see that MU has any other viable current options.
Big 12 expansion may engender ripples even to FCS. If JMU pulls the trigger to go up, we could see some movement in the NE FCS conferences. Not probable but possible. Absent some shifting,MU may be a Big South lifer :)

[Son of Eli]

The NEC is basically now a hybrid model. Schools can, and do, offer up to 63 Equivalences as a combination of up to 40 Athletic Scholarships and 23 Grants-in-Aid.

Wagner, the 3rd smallest FCS school by enrollment, has been using this formula for years and has scheduled FBS games for 5 straight seasons. If they can do it, Georgetown or any private school can.

CCSU and Duquesne have both scheduled FBS teams in past as non-counters; Central should be "bowl counter" status starting next year and has future games at Ball State and Syracuse, while it was reported that the Dukes appear on the verge of jumping into playing FBS teams as well.

Robert Morris is presumed to reach the rolling 57.5 equivalency mark soon, as they are scheduled to play at Buffalo in 2019.

Bryant has invested into athletics and football, so I would expect them to become a counter and schedule FBS opponents very soon; and I wouldn't be surprised if even Saint Francis can reach the magic number and get a game with a MAC or Sun Belt team in the future.


Can someone please explain to me why the Ivy League can't use their financial aid packages as "equivlancies" and therefore get bowl counter status???

[Go Green]

Can someone please explain to me why the Ivy League can't use their financial packages as "equivlancies" and therefore get bowl counter status???

We've never asked?

Just a guess...

[Son of Eli]

We've never asked?

Just a guess...

I'm thinking that maybe the school must offer 40 full athletic scholarships before they can use equivalencies for the difference, but that's also a guess.

[RichH2]

Can someone please explain to me why the Ivy League can't use their financial aid packages as "equivlancies" and therefore get bowl counter status???
Ivies dont want to ask NCAA. Right now Ivies fit in the Service academy exception. Since all students are eligible for the exact treatment. Therefore the scholarship limits dont apply to any of them. Yes Ivy aid would otherwise qualify as equivalencies and be subject to NCAA caps of 63 over 85. Ivies dont want that :)

[Go Green]

Ivies dont want to ask NCAA. Right now Ivies fit in the Service academy exception. Since all students are eligible for the exact treatment. Therefore the scholarship limits dont apply to any of them. Yes Ivy aid would otherwise qualify as equivalencies and be subject to NCAA caps of 63 over 85. Ivies dont want that :)

This is my understanding as well.

[Go...gate]

Ivies dont want to ask NCAA. Right now Ivies fit in the Service academy exception. Since all students are eligible for the exact treatment. Therefore the scholarship limits dont apply to any of them. Yes Ivy aid would otherwise qualify as equivalencies and be subject to NCAA caps of 63 over 85. Ivies dont want that :)

Ye Gods, don't say that to some who see the Ivy "equivalencies" which are distributed to reserved admissions "slots" (a system most of the Patriot League schools also used for years) as non-scholarship aid. A rose by any other name.....

[Son of Eli]

Ivies dont want to ask NCAA. Right now Ivies fit in the Service academy exception. Since all students are eligible for the exact treatment. Therefore the scholarship limits dont apply to any of them. Yes Ivy aid would otherwise qualify as equivalencies and be subject to NCAA caps of 63 over 85. Ivies dont want that :)



I'm still confused. Are you saying that if the Ivies applied for the equivlancy exception they would be capped at 63 financial aid package packages for the team and a roster size of 85, so they choose not to apply rather than except those restrictions?

[RichH2]

I'm still confused. Are you saying that if the Ivies applied for the equivlancy exception they would be capped at 63 financial aid package packages for the team and a roster size of 85, so they choose not to apply rather than except those restrictions?
Pretty much. The 85 is the maximum number of recruited players receiving the 63 eguivalencies. It is not a roster cap. The actual problem is Ivies are FCS creating the need to be a counter for FBS games. The Service academies dont have the issue. IIR, some Ivies have requested an exception to the counter rule without success.

[Son of Eli]

Pretty much. The 85 is the maimum number of recruited players receiving the 63 eguivalencies. It is not a roster cap.


So I assume the Ivy League must be giving out more than 63 equivlancies on their current roster. This gives them an advantage to athletic scholarship programs, not a disadvantage. Am I wrong here? Or is the problem for the Ivy League just that they don't want any different aid rules for Athletes vs the overall student body?

[Son of Eli]

Right now Ivies fit in the Service academy exception.


If the Ivy League has the same system as the service academies shouldn't they at least be allowed bowl counter status when the play the service academies?

[RichH2]

So I assume the Ivy League must be giving out more than 63 equivlancies on their current roster. This gives them an advantage to athletic scholarship programs, not a disadvantage. Am I wrong here? Or is the problem for the Ivy League just that they don't want any different aid rules for Athletes vs the overall student body?
There is no NCAA limit on Ivy football. The only restriction is the Ivy rule limiting recruits to a rolling avg of 30 over 4 years

[RichH2]

If the Ivy League has the same system as the service academies shouldn't they at least be allowed bowl counter status when the play the service academies?
That is the argument that was made to the NCAA. Rejected since Ivies are FCS. In order to be a counter an FCS team must award a certaun number of equivalencies . Per the Academy exception the Ivies dont offer any equivalencies. Therefore as an FCS conference cannot qualify.
A somewhat petty application of the rule but actually a rather precise interpretation. Ivies do have a way of pissing some people off occasionally. :)

[Son of Eli]

That is the arguthat was made to the NCAA. Rejected since Ivies are FCS. In order to be a counter an FCS team must award a certaun number of equivalencies . Per the Academy exception the Ivies dont offer any equivalencies. Therefore as an FCS conference cannot qualify.
A somewhat petty application of the rule but actually a rather precise interpretation. Ivies do have a way of pissing some people off occasionally. :)

It just seems very unfair and nonsensical to me that Savannah State, Wagner, Rhode Island, etc have bowl counter status where much better Ivy League teams don't. I hope this arbitrary rule can be amended to give the Ivy League equal Bowl counter status with the rest of the FCS. Water Camp must be rolling over in his grave at this disparate treatment of the schools that invented the game of football.

[Go Green]

. IIR, some Ivies have requested an exception to the counter rule without success.

That's news to me. Do you know which Ivies so requested?

[RichH2]

That's news to me. Do you know which Ivies so requested?
Not really but some years back there was an article about I-A and I-AA scheduling in a Boston paper. The bulk of the article discussed the glory days of Ivy League prior to separation if University division into A and AA. The coach noted his AD had tried to get a specific exemption to counter rule to schedule a local FBS team. The request was denied.
Sorry, just dont recall specifics.
Given current split in Ivy scheduling between those scheduling up and down. Have no idea whether counter status is at all relevant to many Ivies.

[Son of Eli]

Not really but some years back there was an article about I-A and I-AA scheduling in a Boston paper. The bulk of the article discussed the glory days of Ivy League prior to separation if University division into A and AA. The coach noted his AD had tried to get a specific exemption to counter rule to schedule a local FBS team. The request was denied.
Sorry, just dont recall specifics.
Given current split in Ivy scheduling between those scheduling up and down. Have no idea whether counter status is at all relevant to many Ivies.

I know it's relevant to Yale. UConn recently rebuffed Yale's offer for a two game home and home series. They cited the bowl counter issue as one of the reasons. Coach Reno has also publicly expressed his interest of scheduling the service academies.

http://www.nhregister.com/sports/20150905/sunday-gravy-uconn-vs-yale-football-not-in-the-cards

http://portal31nhr.blogspot.com/2015/08/yale-head-coach-tony-reno-at-chalk-talk.html?m=1

[Go Green]

Not really but some years back there was an article about I-A and I-AA scheduling in a Boston paper. The bulk of the article discussed the glory days of Ivy League prior to separation if University division into A and AA. The coach noted his AD had tried to get a specific exemption to counter rule to schedule a local FBS team. The request was denied.
Sorry, just dont recall specifics.
Given current split in Ivy scheduling between those scheduling up and down. Have no idea whether counter status is at all relevant to many Ivies.

For the reasons already discussed, I think the Ivies should be able to qualify if we formally pursued it. Just one school making a request probably isn't going to cut it.

Except, of course, if that school is Harvard. What Harvard wants, Harvard gets. But given that they have no interest in challenging themselves OOC above Lafayette, I'm not holding my breath for Harvard to lift a finger.

[Son of Eli]

For the reasons already discussed, I think the Ivies should be able to qualify if we formally pursued it. Just one school making a request probably isn't going to cut it.

Except, of course, if that school is Harvard. What Harvard wants, Harvard gets. But given that they have no interest in challenging themselves OOC above Lafayette, I'm not holding my breath for Harvard to lift a finger.

I'm confident that Robin Harris, the Executive Director of the Ivy League, could get the NCAA to change the bowl counter rules to benefit the Ivy League if she was only given the direction to do so by the Ivy Presidents. She has proven herself to be very effective in working with the NCAA on rule issues, such as the recent kickoff rule changes. I have no idea why any school president would oppose a bowl counter rule change. A rule change would just allow each individual school to schedule who they want. No one would be forced to schedule a FBS opponent if they don't want to.

[RichH2]

I'm confident that Robin Harris, the Executive Director of the Ivy League, could get the NCAA to change the bowl counter rules to benefit the Ivy League if she was only given the direction to do so by the Ivy Presidents. She has proven herself to be very effective in working with the NCAA on rule issues, such as the recent kickoff rule changes. I have no idea why any school president would oppose a bowl counter rule change. A rule change would just allow each individual school to schedule who they want. No one would be forced to schedule a FBS opponent if they don't want to.
Perhaps a formal request by IL would receive consideration. It is not a given that an exemption would be granted. From FCS perspective, why should Ivies get that exemption yet not have to abide by the restrictions that all other FCS teams face? Ivies have the perceived advantage of unlimited recruiting and funding. Not going to sell very well.

[Son of Eli]

Perhaps a formal request by IL would receive consideration. It is not a given that an exemption would be granted. From FCS perspective, why should Ivies get that exemption yet not have to abide by the restrictions that all other FCS teams face? Ivies have the perceived advantage of unlimited recruiting and funding. Not going to sell very well.


So Ivy League teams are too good to play FBS teams?

[Go Green]

Perhaps a formal request by IL would receive consideration. It is not a given that an exemption would be granted. From FCS perspective, why should Ivies get that exemption yet not have to abide by the restrictions that all other FCS teams face? Ivies have the perceived advantage of unlimited recruiting and funding. Not going to sell very well.

Unless the FBS teams think that Ivies would be more attractive matchups than other FCS teams.

I could be wrong, but I doubt objections from the PL and NEC would go very far here.

[Bill]

I'm confident that Robin Harris, the Executive Director of the Ivy League, could get the NCAA to change the bowl counter rules to benefit the Ivy League if she was only given the direction to do so by the Ivy Presidents. She has proven herself to be very effective in working with the NCAA on rule issues, such as the recent kickoff rule changes. I have no idea why any school president would oppose a bowl counter rule change. A rule change would just allow each individual school to schedule who they want. No one would be forced to schedule a FBS opponent if they don't want to.
Son of Eli - I couldn't agree more. IF the Ivy's really want it...it will happen. As you well know, the Ivy's COULD dominate FCS if they chose to...