Teams Playing With Fewer Than 63 Scholarships

[DFW HOYA]

Excepting the Ivy and the Pioneer, are there teams in your conference playing below the 63 scholarship ceiling (60 in the Patriot); or in the case of the NEC, below 40?

Georgetown can't be the only one playing under the curve...can it? :(

[Catatonic]

Excepting the Ivy and the Pioneer, are there teams in your conference playing below the 63 scholarship ceiling; or in the case of the NEC, below 40?

Georgetown can't be the only one playing under the curve...can it? :(

Abilene Christian has been under the 63 limit throughout the transition from D2 to FCS. We expect to offer 63 scholarships for the first time in 2017 when we become D1 eligible.

[smilo]

I've been curious about finding a complete list of this too for quite some time. As far as I recall reading - aren't Nicholls State and Rhode Island? I'm almost certain of the former due to all the cuts they've had to make. Quick research shows the latter was at 55 in '06. Down to 47 in '12. Was on the way back up, but I think 10 or so under the limit.

[RootinFerDukes]

I know the Ivy is a non-scholarship league, but my question is... do a lot of players receive "academic scholarships" while they just happen to play for the football team?

[Grizalltheway]

Here

[FUBeAR]

I know the Ivy is a non-scholarship league, but my question is... do a lot of players receive "academic scholarships" while they just happen to play for the football team?

Not an Ivy expert, by any means, but I did have 2 years of experience having a Player/Son in a non-scholarship Pioneer model and was involved in the recruiting process with the Ivies, the Patriot (before they went schollie), the Pioneer, the Service Academies, and several high academic D3's.

The over-arching idea in all of these, except the Service Academies, is/was that Football Student-Athletes are eligible for Financial Aid based upon the same Academic, need-based, and other criteria (not to include Athletic Ability) as the student-body of EACH school. So, in the Ivies, with their HUGE endowments (so to speak), they give A TON of Financial Aid to their student bodies and their need-based Financial Aid can start at, comparatively, a very high family income level for Student Athletes as well.

The bottom line is that the Football Players in the Ivy League and many of the other non-scholarship schools receive a substantial amount of Financial Aid. For example, I do OK financially, but was having a couple of down years (after the recession) and the price tags at Carnegie Mellon and Davidson that were offered AFTER Financial Aid, were in the 15k range. These schools cost 50-60k, I believe. Not sure if those are typical examples, but that's at least 1 picture of how it works. Also, with Pell Grants, if eligible, and subsidized/unsubsidized loans, a 'package' CAN be put together to take that down further, without even electing Bernie Sanders. :D

BUT...if a school abuses/fudges on that and give Football Players/Athletes aid beyond what a typical student receives, as, apparently, San Diego & Jacksonville U., did in the past 2 years, they can get busted and sanctioned by their conference.

If I've mischaracterized how things work in the Ivies, I know they have some smart alums who can post and explain it accurately. As my guy was a less-than 6-3 OLman and was somewhere between their '2nd & 3rd ring' (standard deviations away from their calculated student body Test Scores/GPA factor - he had off-the-chart test scores, but a considerably less than stellar HS GPA), we didn't go too far down the track with them.

[bison137]

I know the Ivy is a non-scholarship league, but my question is... do a lot of players receive "academic scholarships" while they just happen to play for the football team?



None receive "academic scholarships", but lots of them receive generous need-based aid.

[bison137]

Excepting the Ivy and the Pioneer, are there teams in your conference playing below the 63 scholarship ceiling; or in the case of the NEC, below 40?

Georgetown can't be the only one playing under the curve...can it? :(



As you know, no team in the PL has 63 athletic scholarships. Many have 60, but Bucknell and apparently Lafayette have less than that.

[Catatonic]

I know the Ivy is a non-scholarship league, but my question is... do a lot of players receive "academic scholarships" while they just happen to play for the football team?

My impression, pending a more definitive post from an Ivy expert, is that all Ivy League schools meet one hundred percent of every student's demonstrated financial need in the form of grants and scholarships. Need is based on the Federal Financial Aid form (FAFSA).

[clenz]

UNI typically enters fall camp about 57 to 59 equivalencies given.

I'd bet very few programs enter fall camp at 63.

IIRC, Montana, NDSU, SDSU and really almost none of the MVFC or Big Sky schools run the full 63 ever and pretty much never before the end of fall camp when they might fill the left overs with last year players that had been walk on players previously. That's the only way UNI ever runs the full 63

[RichH2]

Ivies are not limited by NCAA as to amount of aid or the the number of recruits. Ivy limits numbers to a rolling 4 yr avg of 120 players.Two issues to consider. First there is a big differencr between H-Y-P and the rest of the Ivies as to how much money can be spent each year.The former have by far the biggest endowments and have no actual money limit annually. The rest are not as rich in various degrees. Which raises the 2nd issue. The dichotomy creates a 2 tier system in the Ivies. Penn and Dartmouth have had streaks of success and perhaps Columbia may have one with Bagnoli. Assuming good coaches H-Y-P will usually dominate.

[Model Citizen]

What Catatonic said.

So what we're really talking about is whether a player finishes school with loan debt. That's most likely to be the case in the Pioneer.

[NY Crusader 2010]

So Princeton, dollar-for-dollar, has been a pretty big disappointment. A couple of shared titles over the last decade (2006 + I think one more recently) and mediocrity aside from that.

[Go Green]

So Princeton, dollar-for-dollar, has been a pretty big disappointment. A couple of shared titles over the last decade (2006 + I think one more recently) and mediocrity aside from that.

You have just described Yale as well.

In theory, HYP *should* dominate the rest of the league. And in some sports they do . But it hasn't worked out that way in football.

[Gordon Shumway]

Ivies may be able to claim no athletic scholarships, but they have something that could be argued is even better. There is really no limit, other than roster size, as to how many athletes have access to these generous financial aid packages. Of course, they have to get in first. But once that is accomplished, money should not be a worry for most.

http://www.businessinsider.com/congrats-you-got-into-the-school-of-your-dreams-now-its-time-to-think-about-how-to-pay-for-it-2015-4

[RichH2]

You have just described Yale as well.

In theory, HYP *should* dominate the rest of the league. And in some sports they do . But it hasn't worked out that way in football.

You both are on point. Recruiting is half the formula. Good coaching is just as crucial.

[Franks Tanks]

As you know, no team in the PL has 63 athletic scholarships. Many have 60, but Bucknell and apparently Lafayette have less than that.

Lafayette should have at least 56, but maybe something like 58.

[RootinFerDukes]

Ivies may be able to claim no athletic scholarships, but they have something that could be argued is even better. There is really no limit, other than roster size, as to how many athletes have access to these generous financial aid packages. Of course, they have to get in first. But once that is accomplished, money should not be a worry for most.

http://www.businessinsider.com/congrats-you-got-into-the-school-of-your-dreams-now-its-time-to-think-about-how-to-pay-for-it-2015-4

This is kind of what I was getting at. The Ivies will say they're non-scholly to please the academics first crowd but at the end of the day, the student athlete may still be getting financial assistance on at least some of that tuition cost. I just can't view that as REALLY non-scholarship.

[Go Green]

This is kind of what I was getting at. The Ivies will say they're non-scholly to please the academics first crowd but at the end of the day, the student athlete may still be getting financial assistance on at least some of that tuition cost. I just can't view that as REALLY non-scholarship.

The kicker is that every student at a particular Ivy school gets the same financial deal as the athletes. Aid will vary from Ivy to Ivy (HYP have the best packages), but athletes aren't receiving benefits that aren't available to their classmates.

Similar to the military academies. If you think that the Army/Navy/Air Force players are "on scholarship," then fine. But so is everyone else walking around there.

[Franks Tanks]

This is kind of what I was getting at. The Ivies will say they're non-scholly to please the academics first crowd but at the end of the day, the student athlete may still be getting financial assistance on at least some of that tuition cost. I just can't view that as REALLY non-scholarship.

Not sure what your angle is, but it is pretty simple. The Ivy league, the PFL and D-III all offer need based financial aid to athletes. This aid however is available to all students, but the athletes are recruited and often given admission preference. The Ivy model is the D-III model, but the Ivies tend to offer financial aid that is far above the rest of the country.

By the way the old PL model was athletically related. The need based financial aid was given to athletes only, but the amount of the award was need based.

[RootinFerDukes]

Thanks for the responses. It is different than an athletic scholarship if it is a program available to all students.

[Go Green]

You both are on point. Recruiting is half the formula. Good coaching is just as crucial.

I still can't help but wonder if there is more to the story for Yale and Princeton. Other than some isolated success, Princeton hasn't been considered a consistent league power since the early 1990s. For Yale, it's even further back than that. Both schools have been recruiting well for some time, and their coaches seem competent enough.

I just can't put my finger on it, but something's been missing at both places....

[Tealblood]

It should be pretty easy to figure if schools are not offering the allowed number of shollies

look at the shcools schedule if they aren't playing money games they probably aren't above the threshold

[RichH2]

I still can't help but wonder if there is more to the story for Yale and Princeton. Other than some isolated success, Princeton hasn't been considered a consistent league power since the early 1990s. For Yale, it's even further back than that. Both schools have been recruiting well for some time, and their coaches seem competent enough.

I just can't put my finger on it, but something's been missing at both places....

Perhaps. Just because the coach theoretically has access to that funding does not ensure that Administartion will let him have all or even enough of it by limiting the numbrr of slots he gets for recruits. League max is the avg of 30. If Admissions only gives him 25 , he will lose some recruits to other offers rather than wait fo acceptance letter. An antagonistic Administration can hamstring any program. Sometimes it is the luck of tte draw in a cycle that can gut a program. Staff finishes wnd best with too mant of its top recruits.
My guess is that both programs suffered at various times with all of these factots plus stretches of weak coacing staffs.
Right now both Yale and Princeton have excellent HCs and apparently afministration support.

[clenz]

It should be pretty easy to figure if schools are not offering the allowed number of shollies

look at the shcools schedule if they aren't playing money games they probably aren't above the threshold
I think, and maybe I'm wrong, it's that a program has to offer the full 63, not give the full 63.

As I said, UNI almost always enters camp about 57 or so. I know Montana does the same for sure as a few years ago when they were hit with a scholarship reduction they didn't care because they were under than number every year anyway.

Much like the FBS only truly requires 77

[PAllen]

Not sure what your angle is, but it is pretty simple. The Ivy league, the PFL and D-III all offer need based financial aid to athletes. This aid however is available to all students, but the athletes are recruited and often given admission preference. The Ivy model is the D-III model, but the Ivies tend to offer financial aid that is far above the rest of the country.

By the way the old PL model was athletically related. The need based financial aid was given to athletes only, but the amount of the award was need based.

Clarification on the old PL model (at least at Lehigh): Need was determined by financial aid dept for every student (athlete or non athlete). Most students had need met by a combination of grants, loans, work study, etc. Some athletes (those that would be considered "on scholarship" at other schools) had all of their need met by grants.

[Franks Tanks]

Clarification on the old PL model (at least at Lehigh): Need was determined by financial aid dept for every student (athlete or non athlete). Most students had need met by a combination of grants, loans, work study, etc. Some athletes (those that would be considered "on scholarship" at other schools) had all of their need met by grants.

"need met by loan" is always sort of doublespeak to me. Yes, in the old PL if you quit football, a good portion of your aid was likely to go away. This would not happen at an Ivy, PFL or D-III.

[bison137]

It should be pretty easy to figure if schools are not offering the allowed number of shollies

look at the shcools schedule if they aren't playing money games they probably aren't above the threshold



Somewhat apples to oranges. Wagner was only offering 40 football scholarships and yet was above the threshold of 57 equivalencies due to a lot of athletic need-based aid. Bucknell was nowhere near 57 athletic scholarships when the played Army last year. Etc.

[Toby]

Not an Ivy expert, by any means, but I did have 2 years of experience having a Player/Son in a non-scholarship Pioneer model and was involved in the recruiting process with the Ivies, the Patriot (before they went schollie), the Pioneer, the Service Academies, and several high academic D3's.

The over-arching idea in all of these, except the Service Academies, is/was that Football Student-Athletes are eligible for Financial Aid based upon the same Academic, need-based, and other criteria (not to include Athletic Ability) as the student-body of EACH school. So, in the Ivies, with their HUGE endowments (so to speak), they give A TON of Financial Aid to their student bodies and their need-based Financial Aid can start at, comparatively, a very high family income level for Student Athletes as well.

The bottom line is that the Football Players in the Ivy League and many of the other non-scholarship schools receive a substantial amount of Financial Aid. For example, I do OK financially, but was having a couple of down years (after the recession) and the price tags at Carnegie Mellon and Davidson that were offered AFTER Financial Aid, were in the 15k range. These schools cost 50-60k, I believe. Not sure if those are typical examples, but that's at least 1 picture of how it works. Also, with Pell Grants, if eligible, and subsidized/unsubsidized loans, a 'package' CAN be put together to take that down further, without even electing Bernie Sanders. :D

BUT...if a school abuses/fudges on that and give Football Players/Athletes aid beyond what a typical student receives, as, apparently, San Diego & Jacksonville U., did in the past 2 years, they can get busted and sanctioned by their conference.

If I've mischaracterized how things work in the Ivies, I know they have some smart alums who can post and explain it accurately. As my guy was a less-than 6-3 OLman and was somewhere between their '2nd & 3rd ring' (standard deviations away from their calculated student body Test Scores/GPA factor - he had off-the-chart test scores, but a considerably less than stellar HS GPA), we didn't go too far down the track with them.


I don't know if this is still the case (or even if the Ivy recruiters were correct or not) but the recruiters at several Ivy league schools told us that there was no academic scholarships given for football players. Everyone was put in the same financial need bucket.

Now they did tell us that they rated their recruits on a scale of 1-5 based on their academic performance because they only could offer so many 1s (low academic performers, 2s, 3s and 4s). Thus if you were a 5, you were considered more recruitable since the 5s did not count against their lower quotas.

I have no idea is this is correct, but it is what the Ivy football recruiters said.

[RichH2]

I don't know if this is still the case (or even if the Ivy recruiters were correct or not) but the recruiters at several Ivy league schools told us that there was no academic scholarships given for football players. Everyone was put in the same financial need bucket.

Now they did tell us that they rated their recruits on a scale of 1-5 based on their academic performance because they only could offer so many 1s (low academic performers, 2s, 3s and 4s). Thus if you were a 5, you were considered more recruitable since the 5s did not count against their lower quotas.

I have no idea is this is correct, but it is what the Ivy football recruiters said.
Basically the same. The numbers allowed in low bands can change from year to year and from team to team

[Go...gate]

This is kind of what I was getting at. The Ivies will say they're non-scholly to please the academics first crowd but at the end of the day, the student athlete may still be getting financial assistance on at least some of that tuition cost. I just can't view that as REALLY non-scholarship.

The Ivy "model" is no more non-scholarship than the Patriot League model was for many years. The PL finally decided to look in the mirror and call their aid what it really was.

[Go Green]

If it means anything for the discussion, a lot of guys on Ivy teams (at least the better Ivy teams) turned down scholarships elsewhere. Dartmouth, for example, has been bringing in 12-15 guys a year for the past several seasons who passed on FBS or scholarship FCS teams. For Harvard, its probably most of their two (if not three) deep.

[walliver]

For a lot of the smaller schools, especially private schools, the number of scholarships can be deceiving. A player may be offered a needs-based grant or academic money with a partial athletic scholarship to cover the difference. A school may have a total of 63 equivalents with a significantly lower number of athletic scholarships. This may just be an accounting gimmick, but can make the numbers somewhat nebulous.

[bison137]

The Ivy "model" is no more non-scholarship than the Patriot League model was for many years. The PL finally decided to look in the mirror and call their aid what it really was.



Actually it's a bit different. PL schools gave much better deals to athletes. Ivy's don't. Of course they don't really need to, since their standard aid packages are much more generous than those at PL schools.

[kdinva]

For a lot of the smaller schools,....the number of scholarships can be deceiving. A player may be offered a needs-based grant or academic money with a partial athletic scholarship to cover the difference. A school may have a total of 63 equivalents with a lower number of athletic scholarships.

xthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

Actually it's a bit different. PL schools gave much better deals to athletes. Ivy's don't. Of course they don't really need to, since their standard aid packages are much more generous than those at PL schools.

Not sure I see a difference.

[bison137]

Not sure I see a difference.


Significant difference. An Ivy football player and a normal student with the same parental income, assets, etc will get the same financial aid - generous in both cases. Under the old PL model, football players often got much better deals than non-athletes in terms of how much of the aid was a grant and how much was a loan.

[Son of Eli]

I still can't help but wonder if there is more to the story for Yale and Princeton. Other than some isolated success, Princeton hasn't been considered a consistent league power since the early 1990s. For Yale, it's even further back than that. Both schools have been recruiting well for some time, and their coaches seem competent enough.

I just can't put my finger on it, but something's been missing at both places....

Its simple. Bagnoli and Murphy are what has stood in the way of Yale and Princeton.

[Go...gate]

Significant difference. An Ivy football player and a normal student with the same parental income, assets, etc will get the same financial aid - generous in both cases. Under the old PL model, football players often got much better deals than non-athletes in terms of how much of the aid was a grant and how much was a loan.

First I have head of this, though financial aid has changed greatly in the decades since since my brother and I attended Colgate. I recall that Colgate awarded a lot of athletes financial aid through what were called "Alumni Memorial Scholarships" in the '60's, '70's and '80's. However, I don't recall that such aid was all that plentiful or generous, especially in the 1960's.

[Go...gate]

For a lot of the smaller schools, especially private schools, the number of scholarships can be deceiving. A player may be offered a needs-based grant or academic money with a partial athletic scholarship to cover the difference. A school may have a total of 63 equivalents with a significantly lower number of athletic scholarships. This may just be an accounting gimmick, but can make the numbers somewhat nebulous.

Agreed.

[Go Green]

Its simple. Bagnoli and Murphy are what has stood in the way of Yale and Princeton.

Brown won more titles than Y & P in the relevant period as well. Were they in your way too?

[Son of Eli]

Brown won more titles than Y & P in the relevant period as well. Were they in your way too?

Yale and Brown are tied with 8 wins a piece in head to head competition since 2000. However, the recent trend shows Yale pulling away with three straight victories. With Bagnoli now busy rebuilding Columbia it should be just Harvard blocking Yale's path for the near future. The book is still out on Priore.

[Go Green]

With Bagnoli now busy rebuilding Columbia it should be just Harvard blocking Yale's path for the near future. .

Hmmm.....

Okay.

xdrunkyx

[Son of Eli]

Hmmm.....

Okay.

xdrunkyx
If I'm wrong then Yale will be out coached. With their recruits Yale shouldn't finish second to anyone except Harvard, with an exception of the rare outlier.

[Sader87]

First I have head of this, though financial aid has changed greatly in the decades since since my brother and I attended Colgate. I recall that Colgate awarded a lot of athletes financial aid through what were called "Alumni Memorial Scholarships" in the '60's, '70's and '80's. However, I don't recall that such aid was all that plentiful or generous, especially in the 1960's.

I was always curious how Colgate (aside from being a great school) could attract the talent they did in the 70s and 80s without full football scholarships. Guys like Marv Hubbard, Marc van Eeghan, Mark Murphy in the 70s who were later NFL stahs, guys like Ken Gamble, Steve Calabria etc who were some of the best playahs in 1-AA during the 80s etc.

Different world then I know, but I have to believe that those guys and many others who played football for Colgate then were paying very little (if anything) to attend school there.

Am I wrong in assuming this?

[Go Green]

with an exception of the rare outlier.

Like this?

http://www.dartmouthsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=210411703&DB_OEM_ID=11600

You are absolutely right that Yale has indeed been recruiting well. No argument from me there.

But it's not like Dartmouth's guys are only getting other offers from D-III teams. Dartmouth really isn't that far behind Yale (if at all) in terms of guys who turned down scholarships.

[Son of Eli]

Like this?

http://www.dartmouthsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=210411703&DB_OEM_ID=11600

You are absolutely right that Yale has indeed been recruiting well. No argument from me there.

But it's not like Dartmouth's guys are only getting other offers from D-III teams. Dartmouth really isn't that far behind Yale (if at all) in terms of guys who turned down scholarships.

Yale was decimated by injuries for that game. Still, I admit Dartmouth clearly had the better team in 2015. However, going forward Yale will have all four classes recruited by Reno. Yale should be better than Dartmouth going forward. If I'm wrong I will tip my hat to Teevens.

[Cattitude]

Abilene Christian has been under the 63 limit throughout the transition from D2 to FCS. We expect to offer 63 scholarships for the first time in 2017 when we become D1 eligible.

ACU is giving 60.5 scholarships in 2016.

[LeadBolt]

William and Mary typically gives out a dozen or so scholarships to incoming freshmen each year, along with a number of preferred walk-ons. Most of the freshmen are redshirted and scholarships are given to several of the preferred walk-ons as they develop. Several of the preferred walk-ons have gone on to be all Conference and all Americans.

[ngineer]

I know the Ivy is a non-scholarship league, but my question is... do a lot of players receive "academic scholarships" while they just happen to play for the football team?

Yes. Their "grants in aid" are very liberal. The "Big Three" basically give full rides to students from families with incomes of less than $150K. The other five a little less liberal, but very generous.

- - - Updated - - -


I know the Ivy is a non-scholarship league, but my question is... do a lot of players receive "academic scholarships" while they just happen to play for the football team?

Yes. Their "grants in aid" are very liberal. The "Big Three" basically give full rides to students from families with incomes of less than $150K. The other five a little less liberal, but very generous.

[Bill]

I was always curious how Colgate (aside from being a great school) could attract the talent they did in the 70s and 80s without full football scholarships. Guys like Marv Hubbard, Marc van Eeghan, Mark Murphy in the 70s who were later NFL stahs, guys like Ken Gamble, Steve Calabria etc who were some of the best playahs in 1-AA during the 80s etc.

Different world then I know, but I have to believe that those guys and many others who played football for Colgate then were paying very little (if anything) to attend school there.

Am I wrong in assuming this?

Sad
My dad played with/coached a few of the people on your list...and they were indeed receiving scholarships at that time. Some of them may not be called football scholarships, but they were not paying anything to attend Colgate.

[Gate83]

Sad
My dad played with/coached a few of the people on your list...and they were indeed receiving scholarships at that time. Some of them may not be called football scholarships, but they were not paying anything to attend Colgate.

Why "sad"? Certainly through the early 80's while we were playing as an independent we could do whatever we wanted to. I don't think we ever called them football scholarships, though it was widely accepted that admissions standards and financial aid packages were different for our players... pretty much what the Ivies are doing now.

[Bill]

Gate - sorry it came across like that. I meant to lead my post as a response to "Sader"...and my auto correct must have made it sad!!

[Gate83]

No need to apologize Bill, was just wondering about sad... and I certainly understand auto-correct issues!

[carney2]

I must be out of touch, but I seem to remember that some Ivys (H-Y-P and, I think, Brown) guarantee a free ride to every student whose family income is below a certain level. I have no idea what that level is, but I seem to remember $200,000 being bandied about in the case of Harvard. It's not a scholarship and it's not financial aid. Marty Musclebound the incoming linebacker who turned down three offers from Big 10 schools is treated no differently than 95 pound Patty Petite who is planning to major in South Pacific Island Anthropology.

[Go...gate]

Why "sad"? Certainly through the early 80's while we were playing as an independent we could do whatever we wanted to. I don't think we ever called them football scholarships, though it was widely accepted that admissions standards and financial aid packages were different for our players... pretty much what the Ivies are doing now.

We always hewed to the Ivy line. Kids did not get athletic scholarships but they got enough financial to get by. Again, those "Alumni Memorial Scholarships" were often brought into play - just as they were for kids who were not athletes but had artistic, scientific or other talents.

[bison137]

I must be out of touch, but I seem to remember that some Ivys (H-Y-P and, I think, Brown) guarantee a free ride to every student whose family income is below a certain level. I have no idea what that level is, but I seem to remember $200,000 being bandied about in the case of Harvard. It's not a scholarship and it's not financial aid. Marty Musclebound the incoming linebacker who turned down three offers from Big 10 schools is treated no differently than 95 pound Patty Petite who is planning to major in South Pacific Island Anthropology.


The basic threshold to attend Harvard for free was a family income of $65,000 this past year. However many others receive generous aid as well - just not 100%. The cutoff is a family income of $200,000. Note that students with siblings in school may get a more generous package. You are correct that aid doesn't vary between a good football player and a potential anthropology major.