AGS Poll Results - SoCon Preseason Rankings- 2016 SEASON

[AGSPoll]

Results for 07/22/2016 AGS Poll:




Southern Conference






1
Chattanooga Mocs
490
12


2
Samford Bulldogs
457
3


3
The Citadel Bulldogs
453
4


4
Western Carolina Catamounts
442
1


5
Mercer Bears
422



6
Wofford Terriers
415



7
Furman Paladins
398



8
Virginia Military Institute Keydets
361



9
ETSU Buccaneers
342

[ursus arctos horribilis]

There ya go ElCid. xlolx

[BisonTru]

Why is Samford so high? I'm not arguing. I didn't do this poll nor have I researched the SoCon all that much.

[POD Knows]

Being a first timer, here were my picks:

Chatty Mocs
Mercer
Citadel
Samford
Furman
WCU
Wofford
VMI
ETSU

[PaladinFan]

Lot of love for a Samford team that finished 3-4 in the conference last year.

I will say that the SoCon is probably wide open this year. Lot of unanswered questions.

[PaladinFan]

Why is Samford so high? I'm not arguing. I didn't do this poll nor have I researched the SoCon all that much.

Good question.

Went 3-4 in the conference. Lost to three teams (WCU, Furman, and the Citadel) they are ranked ahead of. Didn't really have a good win until they beat Wofford on the road the second to last game of the season.

[mvemjsunpx]

The gap between 8th. & 9th. looks to be far bigger than the gap between 1st. & 8th in this conference.

[catamount man]

WCU will have doubters due to Mitchell graduating and we did lose some DL depth but we did land a transfer from App State on the DL and we redshirted like crazy last couple of seasons. 4th is about right....preseason. Hope to make the next leap. Ready for 9/3 and ECU. GO CATS!!!

[PaladinFan]

The gap between 8th. & 9th. looks to be far bigger than the gap between 1st. & 8th in this conference.

I don't have much to go on, but it would really surprise me if ETSU doesn't get shellacked this year by just about everyone.

In all honesty, any team not named ETSU could finish first in the SoCon and it wouldn't shock me.

[ElCid]

About what I got...based on...nothing much for certain. As has been said, it is wide open. I gave the edge to Chatty in my vote simple due to history right now. They are used to winning and that will not change this year. But realistically any team, except ETSU, could stitch some wins together and make a run, even Furman, maybe.

1: Chattanooga Mocs
2: Samford Bulldogs
3: The Citadel Bulldogs
4: Mercer University Bears
5: Wofford Terriers
6: Western Carolina Catamounts
7: Virginia Military Institute Keydets
8: Furman Paladins
9: ETSU Buccaneer's

Samford is an enigma. They should have done very well last year, but the chemistry just didn't seem to work with the new coach. I think they will actually regroup this year. They can be an offensive juggernaut. They seem to have found their stride late last year. With 1 FBS, 1 sub Div I, and one decent FCS OOC it gives them little room for error.

The biggest question I have is how will the coaching changes at The Citadel play out. I don't think it is as big as some make it out to be (maybe wishful thinking on some peoples part) but it could impact. We get back a huge chunk of the starting offensive output--our entire backfield except 1 is back (and only 1 is a senior this year, the rest are only Jrs); we lost a couple on the o line but the new starters have had plenty of playing time; and we lost a WR. I think one of the biggest loses we have is our kicker, but we apparently have a grad student coming in from FBS for a year. One of the few transfers we get from time to time. I think Defense took a bigger hit talent wise but we still have some simply outstanding folks back. As of today the Massey computer has The Citadel going 10-0 headed into Chapel Hill, but we could just as easily be 5-5. I suspect an 8-2 or 7-3 record is more likely.

While Mercer is not an unknown any more, they still need to find the wins. They went 5-6 but could have easily gone 10-1 with a mere 20 point deficit in those 5 loses. I don't know if teams are still under rating them and allowing them to keep it close. I think they have played some good ball but they have got to find the way to get those close wins. The same thing happened to us 2-3 years ago. Too many close loses doesn't cut it. They may make a run especially with 2 lower tier Ohio Valley games to give them some confidence.

Wofford seemed to be a bit lost last year. Maybe because we finally beat them after way too long. As always, they could surprise. They should easily be 3-1 headed into Samford on 1 Oct.

I thought WCU would have a dead cat bounce last year but they had a decent season. Not sure this year as they lost some of their firepower, but their coach is on the ball and they could surprise. We have to see how fast their new guys step up. They did themselves no favors by scheduling 2 FBS again.

I suspect that VMI will win more games than they have in quite a few years. They went 2-9 last year and but could have easily went 6-5. If Cobb can keep the turnover bug in check they will make noise, especially if they handle Morehead and Bucknell early.

I think one of the biggest questions is how long can the dumpster fire continue at Furman. The purple faithful have got to be near revolt. With Mich St, The Citadel, Chatty, and CCU to begin the season (3 road games), it may be a rough year.

ETSU will obviously have a rough time of it for the foreseeable future. They might win their 2 sub Div I games.

Getting respect from outside the conf will require those OOC wins. We have 8 less chances now that ETSU has rejoined the fold. Of the 27 games, the 12 on the FCS slate are not too tough with only CCU and Central Ark being good wins if that was to happen. All the others need to be wins. None of the 9 FBS look realistically winnable although there could always be a surprise win or close call. I would say the ECU and Akron games have the most possibility but they are still long shots. The 6 sub Div I games are what they are, Homecoming fodder and nothing more. We need to up our non-FBS OOC strength of schedule.

FCS OOC games include:
Gardner-Webb - twice, ehh
Tenn Tech - twice, ehh
Austin Peay - ugh
Coastal Carolina - OK
Kennesaw - twice, ehh
Presbyterian - ehh
Central Arkansas - OK
Morehead St - ugh
Bucknell - ehh

FBS games include:
UNC
Ga Tech
Mich St
E Carolina
South Carolina
Alabama
Mississippi
Mississippi St
Akron

Sub Div I:
six games

[mvemjsunpx]

I don't have much to go on, but it would really surprise me if ETSU doesn't get shellacked this year by just about everyone.

In all honesty, any team not named ETSU could finish first in the SoCon and it wouldn't shock me.

Right. I think everyone except ETSU is middling or better.

[SU DOG]

I think some look at the last 2 games of last season and see a Fr. QB who came of age and was that impressive. Hodges is a real talent and has some terrific athletic receivers to work with. Wofford and Mercer folks would probably agree with that. The O-Line also looked to be improved in the spring. Now, whether the defense is capable of playing well enough to get us to a top 2-3 SoCon finish I do not know. I don't blame anyone for listing us in second place, nor would I argue with anyone who thinks we finish much lower. For myself, I am very optimistic and think we have a lot of talent. Hope we can play up to our potential, as we seem to be an enigma every year.

[Smitty]

Here is my poll

1: Chattanooga Mocs
2: Samford Bulldogs
3: Mercer University Bears
4: Western Carolina Catamounts
5: The Citadel Bulldogs
6: Furman Paladins
7: Wofford Terriers
8: Virginia Military Institute Keydets
9: ETSU Buccaneer's

1-5 is basically a toss up at this point.

[kdinva]

6-2 will win the SoCon. and it would not surprise me if everyone else (minus ETSU) finished 3-5 or 4-4 or 5-3....

[catamount man]

6-2 will win the SoCon. and it would not surprise me if everyone else (minus ETSU) finished 3-5 or 4-4 or 5-3....
Yep. Whole lot of parity in 2016.

[PaladinFan]

I think some look at the last 2 games of last season and see a Fr. QB who came of age and was that impressive. Hodges is a real talent and has some terrific athletic receivers to work with. Wofford and Mercer folks would probably agree with that. The O-Line also looked to be improved in the spring. Now, whether the defense is capable of playing well enough to get us to a top 2-3 SoCon finish I do not know. I don't blame anyone for listing us in second place, nor would I argue with anyone who thinks we finish much lower. For myself, I am very optimistic and think we have a lot of talent. Hope we can play up to our potential, as we seem to be an enigma every year.

Unfortunately for Samford fans, Chris Hatcher has carried bad defenses around with him. You'd be hard pressed to find an air raid team with an elite defense.

I don't know what to think of Samford. I watched a bad Furman team shut the Bulldogs out for a half all while running up, over, and around their defense. That game only deepened my disappointment in the 2015 season as I thought finally Furman had "figured it out" only to realize the coaching staff would scrap the gameplan that worked so well in favor of the same ole same ole.

Truthfully, Samford's performance against Furman and then Wofford and Mercer is more or less indicative of the SoCon as a whole. Pretty much every team can point to one or two games where they looked stellar, and one or two games where they got their butts handed to them.

[Toby]

So just heard in the Post and Courier that Citadel's QB is suspended for the Mercer game and that he was out 4 weeks with a broken finger. Anyone know what happened and are the two incidents related? Any information on the redshirt freshman backup?

[Toby]

Apparently the two are not related:
http://www.southernpigskin.com/socon/dominique-allen-suspended-for-opener/

[catamount man]

We lost Kalen Whitlow earlier this week. He was projected 3rd string QB behind Holcombe and Adams and decided to enroll in a JUCO in Mississippi. One rumor is that he demanded the starting job. Hope that's not true and if so, I can see Speir "future endeavoring" the young man. GO CATS!

[Catamount87]

So just heard in the Post and Courier that Citadel's QB is suspended for the Mercer game and that he was out 4 weeks with a broken finger. Anyone know what happened and are the two incidents related? Any information on the redshirt freshman backup?

Looks like he could miss some key SoCon games, 9/1 - Mercer and 9/10-Furman. Maybe he'll be out come 10/1 against WCU too. :-)

[chattownmocs]

1. Chattanooga
2. Mercer
3. Samford
4. Wofford
5. Western Carolina
6. the Citadel
7. VMl
8. Furman
9. ETSU

OPOY: Alejandro Bennifield
DPOY: Keionta Davis
COY: Bobby Lamb
Freshman of the year: Tadarryl Marshall
Jacobs Blocking Award: Corry Levin

[walliver]

Looks like he could miss some key SoCon games, 9/1 - Mercer and 9/10-Furman. Maybe he'll be out come 10/1 against WCU too. :-)

The Citadel's schedule really works against them by starting the season with 2 conference games. I would normally have picked The Citadel over Mercer, but now see them as underdogs.

After a few weeks, the backup may be up to speed.

[ElCid]

So just heard in the Post and Courier that Citadel's QB is suspended for the Mercer game and that he was out 4 weeks with a broken finger. Anyone know what happened and are the two incidents related? Any information on the redshirt freshman backup?

Well this sucks. New coach (sort of) and now a new QB (Jordan Black). Pretty talented by all accounts but the chemistry will obviously suffer a bit....how much is the question. Seems like he has more speed, is more agile, and thoughtful, where as Allen was more of a bruiser. Not sure about his passing game. Looks like Allen is out of action for 4 weeks so besides being out for Mercer anyway, he might miss the Furman game. Not sure what he did, but proud the team is upholding the rules regardless. Live and learn. We still have huge talent and speed in our stable of running backs.

[OL FU]

Well this sucks. New coach (sort of) and now a new QB (Jordan Black). Pretty talented by all accounts but the chemistry will obviously suffer a bit....how much is the question. Seems like he has more speed, is more agile, and thoughtful, where as Allen was more of a bruiser. Not sure about his passing game. Looks like Allen is out of action for 4 weeks so besides being out for Mercer anyway, he might miss the Furman game. Not sure what he did, but proud the team is upholding the rules regardless. Live and learn. We still have huge talent and speed in our stable of running backs.

Probably dropped someone's luggage.:D

looking forward to the 20thxthumbsupxxthumbsupx

[kdinva]

Probably dropped someone's luggage.:D


OUCH

[FUBeAR]

Well this sucks. New coach (sort of) and now a new QB (Jordan Black). Pretty talented by all accounts but the chemistry will obviously suffer a bit....how much is the question. Seems like he has more speed, is more agile, and thoughtful, where as Allen was more of a bruiser. Not sure about his passing game. Looks like Allen is out of action for 4 weeks so besides being out for Mercer anyway, he might miss the Furman game. Not sure what he did, but proud the team is upholding the rules regardless. Live and learn. We still have huge talent and speed in our stable of running backs.

New OC & New DC also, BTW.

Reckon why El Cid wouldn't just plug-in Cam Jackson at QB while Allen is out. Reportedly, he ran neck-and-neck with Allen for the starting QB slot during 2015 Spring & early Fall practice. He's been in the system for 2 years & is a very dangerous game-proven performer. The Bulldogs also have 2 other A-Backs with starting experience & 5 with game experience, so there is enough depth to pull off the position change. On the other hand, Black's last game snap was in a GA-AA HS game 2 years ago. And, he only played QB his SR year. So his total QB experience is 13 GA-AA games of which most were routs for his team & over early (5 shutouts) until his Team played their 1st game against a Metro ATL AA program & lost rather handily. With that wisp of experience, the Coaches must be REALLY HIGH...on him to stick him into a season-opening Conference game against a very experienced defense, on the road, in what should be a raucous, hostile, SRO environment. If he rises to that challenge, wins, and plays well, Allen may have a hard time getting his job back! I'd go with Jackson at QB, but the Coaches are on the field with them every day. They certainly know better than I do.

Also - wondering if this 2016 rule change will impact / weaken some of the highly effective blocking schemes for the A-Backs that I believe I have seen deployed? (Down block and take out the outside thigh of the DE/OLB, etc.)

BLOCKING BELOW THE WAIST
Offensive players who are outside the tackle box at the snap, and those who leave the tackle box after the snap, may only block an opponent below the waist if the force of the initial contact is directly at the opponent's front. However, they may not block an opponent below the waist in a direction toward the original position of the ball unless the ball carrier has clearly crossed the line of scrimmage.

Interested in some thoughts on that & don't get me wrong, I ain't one of those "don't block low" crybabies. I'm an Offense guy - "cut 'em all; all the time" type. But I think this rule, if enforced, could be a bit problematic for that O. No?

[ElCid]

New OC & New DC also, BTW.

Reckon why El Cid wouldn't just plug-in Cam Jackson at QB while Allen is out. Reportedly, he ran neck-and-neck with Allen for the starting QB slot during 2015 Spring & early Fall practice. He's been in the system for 2 years & is a very dangerous game-proven performer. The Bulldogs also have 2 other A-Backs with starting experience & 5 with game experience, so there is enough depth to pull off the position change. On the other hand, Black's last game snap was in a GA-AA HS game 2 years ago. And, he only played QB his SR year. So his total QB experience is 13 GA-AA games of which most were routs for his team & over early (5 shutouts) until his Team played their 1st game against a Metro ATL AA program & lost rather handily. With that wisp of experience, the Coaches must be REALLY HIGH...on him to stick him into a season-opening Conference game against a very experienced defense, on the road, in what should be a raucous, hostile, SRO environment. If he rises to that challenge, wins, and plays well, Allen may have a hard time getting his job back! I'd go with Jackson at QB, but the Coaches are on the field with them every day. They certainly know better than I do.

Also - wondering if this 2016 rule change will impact / weaken some of the highly effective blocking schemes for the A-Backs that I believe I have seen deployed? (Down block and take out the outside thigh of the DE/OLB, etc.)

BLOCKING BELOW THE WAIST
Offensive players who are outside the tackle box at the snap, and those who leave the tackle box after the snap, may only block an opponent below the waist if the force of the initial contact is directly at the opponent's front. However, they may not block an opponent below the waist in a direction toward the original position of the ball unless the ball carrier has clearly crossed the line of scrimmage.

Interested in some thoughts on that & don't get me wrong, I ain't one of those "don't block low" crybabies. I'm an Offense guy - "cut 'em all; all the time" type. But I think this rule, if enforced, could be a bit problematic for that O. No?

No, that ain't going to happen. Jackson is better where he is. From I heard, they apparently are high on Jordan Black.

Not sure what to make of this rule. Sure sounds like they are trying to whittle away at the blocking schemes for option teams. I will let the technical gurus give their assessment. How was it addressed prior?

[Toby]

1. Chattanooga
2. Mercer
3. Samford
4. Wofford
5. Western Carolina
6. the Citadel
7. VMl
8. Furman
9. ETSU

OPOY: Alejandro Bennifield
DPOY: Keionta Davis
COY: Bobby Lamb
Freshman of the year: Tadarryl Marshall
Jacobs Blocking Award: Corry Levin

So the AGS Preseason has Citadel #13 nationally and you have them 6th in SoCon. That's a big difference. What do you see that others don't?

[chattownmocs]

So the AGS Preseason has Citadel #13 nationally and you have them 6th in SoCon. That's a big difference. What do you see that others don't?

1. Chattanooga- best team yet. Stars in every position group. One of the best in the country at the line of scrimmage Bennifield can be as good as he wants to be.

2. Mercer- always thought they would be a contender this year. We will see what happens at qb. I think their RB Is the best, chandler curtis is the best player on the league with the ball in his hands.

3. Samford- probably the best athletes in the conference. Good looking QB. Dynamic WRs, best passing game in the league. Tadarryl marshall was a steal for them. Can they do it at the line of scrimmage on either side?

Wofford- they've got a lot back and a I think they finally have a qb in brad butler.

Western Carolina- Small step back unless their new qb is better than the old one.

the Citadel- new coaching staff, no qb for a month. It's gonna be hard to match the intensity they played with last year. Can I see them at 2? Yeah. I think 2-6 are close.

VMI- they can pass the ball.

Furnan- I can't believe they are going into another year with bruce fowler and Reese hannon. Must be awful for their fans.

ETSU- they were historically bad. I like a few of their players but they can't possibly be there yet.

[Catamount87]

Let's face it, picking a preseason #1 and #9 in the SoCon this year isn't too difficult, UTC because of all the depth of talent and ETSU for the polar opposite. 2 through 8 is almost a bit of a crap shoot. Almost any of these teams given the right circumstances could be absolutely spectacular or a massive crash and burn. I'm giving the higher nods to Mercer, Citadel, WCU and Wofford. Furman seems as discombobulated as a program could ever be, VMI can be dangerous but lacks depth, Samford could easily be a high pick but defensive lapses (mainly in game planning and play calling something that seems to follow Hatcher a bit) could easily be their undoing.

[Toby]

1. Chattanooga- best team yet. Stars in every position group. One of the best in the country at the line of scrimmage Bennifield can be as good as he wants to be.

2. Mercer- always thought they would be a contender this year.

the Citadel- no qb for a month.

Appreciate the Mercer props, but I must say you're making me nervous. :) if Mercer pulls it off then your COY makes sense, but if UTC repeats after losing "All time QB of the Century", I'd be surprised if Huesman, Sr doesn't get COY. It would be a program statement.

I'll have to check with the AGS Rules Committee on using POST Preseason info for your preseason picks. Hmmmm. Need to get feedback on that one.

Seriously though, thanks for the feedback and reasoning. But I think you've got Citadel too low.

[PaladinFan]

Let's face it, picking a preseason #1 and #9 in the SoCon this year isn't too difficult, UTC because of all the depth of talent and ETSU for the polar opposite. 2 through 8 is almost a bit of a crap shoot. Almost any of these teams given the right circumstances could be absolutely spectacular or a massive crash and burn. I'm giving the higher nods to Mercer, Citadel, WCU and Wofford. Furman seems as discombobulated as a program could ever be, VMI can be dangerous but lacks depth, Samford could easily be a high pick but defensive lapses (mainly in game planning and play calling something that seems to follow Hatcher a bit) could easily be their undoing.

We'll know a lot about Furman really quickly. They have as tough a September schedule as I imagine any team in the country. If they are serious, you'll know it early.

I'd like to think of Furman as something other than "discombobulated." You could write a pretty compelling piece on Furman's slide into mediocrity the last 10 years. Fowler has plenty of critics (rightfully so), but I like what I see in recruiting. Hopefully Furman can find some consistency this season.

I don't watch Furman games and see us out-talented out there most weeks. I see a lot of unforced errors, mental mistakes, and poor preparation and execution that cost us football games. Our offense has been somewhere between unwatchable and abysmal the last few seasons. I think we have a good defense that could really shine if our offense can manage to put some points on the board and the defense a lead to protect.

In any event, with UTC, the Citadel, Michigan State, and Coastal Carolina on the schedule in September, we should all know pretty quickly whether Furman is a legitimate threat or whether Paladin fans need to settle in for another disappointing season. Just my take, but I think Furman really has to beat either UTC or the Citadel. Don't want to go down 0-2 in September to the two defending champs.

[tenNesseeCat]

Western Carolina- Small step back unless their new qb is better than the old one.

The position is still up for grabs, but the fella that I think will win out, has cleared 7ft in the high jump and 22ft in the long jump. I think he won the indoor and outdoor SoCon titles in the high jump, as a true freshman.

I'm not gonna say he's better before I've ever seen him play a game, but I'd say the potential for him to be really hard to deal with for the other teams is pretty HIGH. I don't think that's too big of a JUMP. xrolleyesx

[Mocs123]

I don't watch Furman games and see us out-talented out there most weeks. I see a lot of unforced errors, mental mistakes, and poor preparation and execution that cost us football games. Our offense has been somewhere between unwatchable and abysmal the last few seasons. I think we have a good defense that could really shine if our offense can manage to put some points on the board and the defense a lead to protect.




I agree on Furman. I have thought they have been the most underachieving team in the confrence the past few years (Samford probably stole that title last year). You guys have had talent and a very solid defense. You had good offensive players, but just couldn't get it together (coaching?)

[PaladinFan]

I agree on Furman. I have thought they have been the most underachieving team in the confrence the past few years (Samford probably stole that title last year). You guys have had talent and a very solid defense. You had good offensive players, but just couldn't get it together (coaching?)

I consider it an "all of the above" problem.

You hear comments from coaches and players this season about "consistency," which plagued Furman last year. Mental and execution errors cost us several games. Other games (UTC and WCU are good examples) the team just didn't look ready to play. UTC is a better football team than Furman, but I don't believe they are four touchdowns better. That's simply preparation and being ready to play. Hard not to look at the coaching staff when the team comes out flat a couple times a season.

I've been impressed with the recruiting recently. I see Furman throwing a lot of resources at the offensive line, an area that was easily our weakest position group. Outside of Dakota Dozier, an area that was formerly a source of pride for the program really became a liability. I personally think that if the offensive line makes strides, you'll see a much better Furman team.

Hard at a school like Furman to just turn a ship around in a season or two. I do think some better days are ahead. I like what we've done in recruiting. I like the hires we are making on the coaching staff. Good players and good coaches should, eventually, lead to good things on the football field.

[PaladinNation]

I consider it an "all of the above" problem.

You hear comments from coaches and players this season about "consistency," which plagued Furman last year. Mental and execution errors cost us several games. Other games (UTC and WCU are good examples) the team just didn't look ready to play. UTC is a better football team than Furman, but I don't believe they are four touchdowns better. That's simply preparation and being ready to play. Hard not to look at the coaching staff when the team comes out flat a couple times a season.

I've been impressed with the recruiting recently. I see Furman throwing a lot of resources at the offensive line, an area that was easily our weakest position group. Outside of Dakota Dozier, an area that was formerly a source of pride for the program really became a liability. I personally think that if the offensive line makes strides, you'll see a much better Furman team.

Hard at a school like Furman to just turn a ship around in a season or two. I do think some better days are ahead. I like what we've done in recruiting. I like the hires we are making on the coaching staff. Good players and good coaches should, eventually, lead to good things on the football field.

This is a bit of old news and sour grapes for us Furman fans… we were real upside down in a few positions when BF became coach. We had some busts at some important positions --- offensive line for example. An FCS school cannot be successful when you have three full scholarship players that basically never saw the field.

I also think Furman recently loses confidence and focus as a team when they get down. Speaks to the mistakes that seem to lead to self-destruction.

Let's hope BF gets more time, hard to believe I'm saying that, but I agree with Paladin Fan I think the last two years recruiting classes are light years ahead of the previous classes. The 2017 class already has three commits from DB's two are over 6-1 and a 6-6 blocking tight end. The coaches seem to have made adjustments, but I'm afraid were still a few years away from being a physical dominate Furman team.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Can someone give a brief synopsis of what has happened to Wofford the last few years?

[smallcollegefbfan]

WCU will have doubters due to Mitchell graduating and we did lose some DL depth but we did land a transfer from App State on the DL and we redshirted like crazy last couple of seasons. 4th is about right....preseason. Hope to make the next leap. Ready for 9/3 and ECU. GO CATS!!!

Singleton barely played, if he even did at all, while at App. I would not expect him to make a big impact unless the SoCon is even worse than I thought. I would expect a part-time starter or top tier backup in the SoCon would be a good starter in the SoCon but he wasn't even that. If he starts for WCU then you have very little DL talent. He is not good at all by FBS standards.

I actually think WCU is a top 30-35 team in FCS this year though. If you can figure out QB then you have enough talent to at least challenge for 2nd, I would think.

[smallcollegefbfan]

1. Chattanooga- best team yet. Stars in every position group. One of the best in the country at the line of scrimmage Bennifield can be as good as he wants to be.

2. Mercer- always thought they would be a contender this year. We will see what happens at qb. I think their RB Is the best, chandler curtis is the best player on the league with the ball in his hands.

3. Samford- probably the best athletes in the conference. Good looking QB. Dynamic WRs, best passing game in the league. Tadarryl marshall was a steal for them. Can they do it at the line of scrimmage on either side?

Wofford- they've got a lot back and a I think they finally have a qb in brad butler.

Western Carolina- Small step back unless their new qb is better than the old one.

the Citadel- new coaching staff, no qb for a month. It's gonna be hard to match the intensity they played with last year. Can I see them at 2? Yeah. I think 2-6 are close.

VMI- they can pass the ball.

Furnan- I can't believe they are going into another year with bruce fowler and Reese hannon. Must be awful for their fans.

ETSU- they were historically bad. I like a few of their players but they can't possibly be there yet.

I also think Mercer should content. I have them 3rd but I feel that UTC, Mercer, WCU, and Samford are all solid contenders.

It is sad to see how fall Furman has fallen off because there was a time when they would be a lock to be preseason top 2-3, 4 at worst.

[PaladinFan]

This is a bit of old news and sour grapes for us Furman fans… we were real upside down in a few positions when BF became coach. We had some busts at some important positions --- offensive line for example. An FCS school cannot be successful when you have three full scholarship players that basically never saw the field.

I also think Furman recently loses confidence and focus as a team when they get down. Speaks to the mistakes that seem to lead to self-destruction.

Let's hope BF gets more time, hard to believe I'm saying that, but I agree with Paladin Fan I think the last two years recruiting classes are light years ahead of the previous classes. The 2017 class already has three commits from DB's two are over 6-1 and a 6-6 blocking tight end. The coaches seem to have made adjustments, but I'm afraid were still a few years away from being a physical dominate Furman team.

I also don't think you can negate the Bobby Lamb effect. Furman and Lamb parted ways and he immediately went to work for a competitor in the same marketplace, in a state Furman heavily recruits, looking for the same type of student/athlete.

You cannot tell me that if Tim Cook left Apple and took a job running Google that it wouldn't immediately hurt Apple.

[tenNesseeCat]

Singleton barely played, if he even did at all, while at App. I would not expect him to make a big impact unless the SoCon is even worse than I thought. I would expect a part-time starter or top tier backup in the SoCon would be a good starter in the SoCon but he wasn't even that. If he starts for WCU then you have very little DL talent. He is not good at all by FBS standards.

I'm pretty sure he is looked at more for depth than anything. I don't believe he will take the starting job from Dunn or Junius. I think they are both pretty solid at DT.

I looked it up and it says in '15 he played in 11 games, '14 - injured in fall camp, 13 - played in 7 games, '12 - made travel roster and appeared in game vs ECU but was injured and received a medical redshirt. Looks like he made some progression despite his injuries.

[PaladinFan]

Also a slight programming note. Furman has (again) moved Richard Hayes back to offense, now a running back. Hayes spent last two years as a starting safety for the Paladins. I presume now with increased depth in the defensive backfield that Hayes will be more valuable to Furman on offense.

WCU fans will remember him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w9KUrBoIk4

Gives Furman a "home run" threat in the running game. Having played QB at Furman his freshman year out of the wildcat, I imagine the Paladins can get creative in how they use him.

[tenNesseeCat]

WCU fans will remember him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w9KUrBoIk4

Now why'd you have to go and do that? xsmhx I've seen that play too many times on SoCon promo videos!

[PaladinFan]

Now why'd you have to go and do that? xsmhx I've seen that play too many times on SoCon promo videos!

One of those well position cameramen who already knew what was going to happen :)

Rare instance where I think you can see 10 of 11 defenders in the frame chasing one player.

[Toby]

I also don't think you can negate the Bobby Lamb effect. Furman and Lamb parted ways and he immediately went to work for a competitor in the same marketplace, in a state Furman heavily recruits, looking for the same type of student/athlete.

You cannot tell me that if Tim Cook left Apple and took a job running Google that it wouldn't immediately hurt Apple.

No doubt that Bobby Lamb is great at recruiting, but he left Furman in 2010. Lamb started at Mercer in 2011 and the first year had no scholarships, no stadium and no field house (but lots of drawings to recruit with). The second class recruited in 2012/2013 had no scholarships (i.e. PFL).

These two classes are now Mercer's senior class (redshirt seniors and seniors). I think it is fair to say that Furman (and the rest of the SoCon) passed on all these recruits or they picked playing non scholarship at Mercer over scholarship offers elsewhere.

It makes Bobby Lamb's success at recruiting pretty amazing.

[FUBeAR]

I also don't think you can negate the Bobby Lamb effect. Furman and Lamb parted ways and he immediately went to work for a competitor in the same marketplace, in a state Furman heavily recruits, looking for the same type of student/athlete.

You cannot tell me that if Tim Cook left Apple and took a job running Google that it wouldn't immediately hurt Apple.


No doubt that Bobby Lamb is great at recruiting, but he left Furman in 2010. Lamb started at Mercer in 2011 and the first year had no scholarships, no stadium and no field house (but lots of drawings to recruit with). The second class recruited in 2012/2013 had no scholarships (i.e. PFL).

These two classes are now Mercer's senior class (redshirt seniors and seniors). I think it is fair to say that Furman (and the rest of the SoCon) passed on all these recruits or they picked playing non scholarship at Mercer over scholarship offers elsewhere.

It makes Bobby Lamb's success at recruiting pretty amazing.

Good point Toby - the only on-the-field impact to date that would have impacted FU (and other SoCon or Big South programs) would have come from 2 Recruiting Classes - 2014 & 2015. As I believe most of the Recruits in Mercer's '14 & '15 classes would have been redshirted at other programs, that further diminishes the possible on-the-field impact. Realistically, a couple of Players in Mercer's 2014 Class may have been on the field for other programs in 2015, but not many...and those few may have very well been dispersed among Wofford, Samford, Presbyterian, The Citadel, and Furman (or even others - such as the Service Academies).

So, really, I don't think the "Bobby Lamb effect" has had any measurable impact regarding the on-the-field results at Furman (or any other program) the past 2 years. It's an argument that sounds plausible on its face, but when you really look at the details, that dog just doesn't hunt.

If Tim Cook went from Apple to Google and couldn't pay people for 3 years ('11, '12, and '13, in this example) and then, in 2014, only hired people who had a previously-planned 1 year sabbatical, I don't think anyone would expect to see much of a blip at Apple; except, perhaps, the effect of the loss of Mr. Cook's leadership of the organization.

[PaladinFan]

At bottom, you are both more or less arguing that every player Lamb recruited in the first three season had no reasonable expectation of a scholarship or financial assistance. I doubt that is true.

It is difficult to get too far into the weeds with scholarship allocation at FCS schools. That information is typically highly clandestine, difficult to find, and rarely discussed with any firm knowledge. I do know that Mercer gives out a ton (my words) of financial aid (more than any undergraduate university I am aware of). I can get a large picture of the school not handing out "scholarships" but also not making football players necessarily pay tuition either.

But, more to the point, Lamb is a good recruiter. I no issue with that. My point is hard to quantify (who can actually prove me right or wrong?), and I get that.

[FUBeAR]

At bottom, you are both more or less arguing that every player Lamb recruited in the first three season had no reasonable expectation of a scholarship or financial assistance. I doubt that is true.

It is difficult to get too far into the weeds with scholarship allocation at FCS schools. That information is typically highly clandestine, difficult to find, and rarely discussed with any firm knowledge. I do know that Mercer gives out a ton (my words) of financial aid (more than any undergraduate university I am aware of). I can get a large picture of the school not handing out "scholarships" but also not making football players necessarily pay tuition either.

But, more to the point, Lamb is a good recruiter. I no issue with that. My point is hard to quantify (who can actually prove me right or wrong?), and I get that.

1) None of the players Mercer recruited in 2012 or 2013 received any Athletic Financial Aid until Fall Term of 2014 and they signed with Mercer with no assurances that Athletic Financial Aid would ever be available to them. Prior to that, they received the same amount of aid that any other Mercer student would have rec'd based on Academic performance and demonstrated financial need. All of the 'like-schools' in this discussion offer these same types of aid to students and to student-athletes and all of the like-schools, as does Mercer, have hefty price tags. Whether or not Mercer has more or less non-athletic aid to offer than the other like-schools; I really don't know, but I would say they are more similar than different (other than PC, who has had significant, documented financial challenges in recent years).

2) Your comment about Mercer not making Football Players pay tuition is absolutely ridiculous and, I would think, highly offensive to those 2012 & 2013 Recruits' Families who shelled out thousands of their hard-earned $'s to enable their sons to be part of something very special starting up at Mercer and to give them a chance to realize their dreams of playing college football.

3) I don't think Toby, nor I, were arguing that the Mercer Players recruited during the 1st 2 years rec'd no financial assistance from Mercer. Our point on that topic is that very few, if any of them, were offered Athletic Scholarships by any of the like-schools and not by Furman, specifically.

4) My understanding of your argument is that Furman's results on the field in 2014 & 2015 were negatively impacted by Mercer's Recruiting presence/success ("the Bobby Lamb effect") from 2012-2015. I think that's a very hard argument to support when Toby and I both KNOW that Furman did not want ANY of the Players in Mercer's 1st 2 Recruiting classes - including many of the Players who have played significant roles on the field for the Bears the past 3 years. And, if any of the 2014 or 2015 Recruiting Class Players HAD gone to Furman (as opposed to choosing one of the other like-schools), they most likely would have been redshirted at FU, further reducing their possible contribution over the time period in question.

5) While it may be difficult to quantify in the absolute, it is not hard to comprehend when objectively considering the known facts of the matter. Coach Lamb's Recruiting presence/success at Mercer had virtually no effect on the quality of Players signed by Furman from 2011-2013 and, at most, a negligible effect on the results realized by Furman on the field in 2014 and 2015.

[PaladinFan]

As typical with our exchanges, you are entitled to your opinion.

Furman had far greater issues on the football field the last two years than Bobby Lamb. His presence at Mercer immediately after leaving Furman is, in my view, a notable, but not exclusive, other hurdle Furman had to jump as they ushered in the Bruce Fowler era. You are free to disagree.

[Toby]

1) None of the players Mercer recruited in 2012 or 2013 received any Athletic Financial Aid until Fall Term of 2014 and they signed with Mercer with no assurances that Athletic Financial Aid would ever be available to them. Prior to that, they received the same amount of aid that any other Mercer student would have rec'd based on Academic performance and demonstrated financial need. All of the 'like-schools' in this discussion offer these same types of aid to students and to student-athletes and all of the like-schools, as does Mercer, have hefty price tags. Whether or not Mercer has more or less non-athletic aid to offer than the other like-schools; I really don't know, but I would say they are more similar than different (other than PC, who has had significant, documented financial challenges in recent years).

2) Your comment about Mercer not making Football Players pay tuition is absolutely ridiculous and, I would think, highly offensive to those 2012 & 2013 Recruits' Families who shelled out thousands of their hard-earned $'s to enable their sons to be part of something very special starting up at Mercer and to give them a chance to realize their dreams of playing college football.

3) I don't think Toby, nor I, were arguing that the Mercer Players recruited during the 1st 2 years rec'd no financial assistance from Mercer. Our point on that topic is that very few, if any of them, were offered Athletic Scholarships by any of the like-schools and not by Furman, specifically.

4) My understanding of your argument is that Furman's results on the field in 2014 & 2015 were negatively impacted by Mercer's Recruiting presence/success ("the Bobby Lamb effect") from 2012-2015. I think that's a very hard argument to support when Toby and I both KNOW that Furman did not want ANY of the Players in Mercer's 1st 2 Recruiting classes - including many of the Players who have played significant roles on the field for the Bears the past 3 years. And, if any of the 2014 or 2015 Recruiting Class Players HAD gone to Furman (as opposed to choosing one of the other like-schools), they most likely would have been redshirted at FU, further reducing their possible contribution over the time period in question.

5) While it may be difficult to quantify in the absolute, it is not hard to comprehend when objectively considering the known facts of the matter. Coach Lamb's Recruiting presence/success at Mercer had virtually no effect on the quality of Players signed by Furman from 2011-2013 and, at most, a negligible effect on the results realized by Furman on the field in 2014 and 2015.

The Furman grads certainly understand Furman football better than I do, but if the "Bobby Lamb Effect or BLE" applies to Furman recruiting, I prefer to see it as making the job Lamb has done pretty incredible. THE BLE was done with one hand tied behind his back.

The Furman grads/fans can corrected me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Bobby Lamb was trying to get facility and budget upgrades at Furman and was unable to do so. Bruce Fowler came in 2011 with the express promises of faculty and budget upgrades. I assume that with the new football facility upgrade complete that he got both.

Mercer has certainly provided Bobby Lamb with great state-of-the-art facilities and I assume budgets (I don't have direct knowledge of budgets) but most importantly the administration (President Underwood) is 100% behind and in support of Lamb. Kudos to both for starting up a football program the right way.

[FUBeAR]

As typical with our exchanges, you are entitled to your opinion.

Yes - I am entitled to my fact-based/data-driven opinions and you are entitled to your speculation. Agreed.

[PaladinFan]

Yes - I am entitled to my fact-based/data-driven opinions and you are entitled to your speculation. Agreed.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/e5/e53d7f8067067a51029cde8260094ff5867b10ab6676b1d493 c8dd8d23c4571b.jpg

[Catamount87]

Interesting discussion about the Bobby Lamb effect on Furman football. Something I would suggest is missing from the equation that I think also may apply to Wofford's slight step back, is the rise of other programs within the recruiting area and more competition for recruits. Not only do we have a successful startup in Mercer, who clearly has a strong budget, excellent coaches and beautiful facilities. There's Coastal Carolina and Charleston Southern finding success and national rankings, WCU coming back from the dead and Kennesaw State starting football. Oh and let's not forget two programs that were FCS and recruit the region, ASU and GSU and the edge being FBS now gives them when recruiting the some of same players.

Furman's undoing has many parts. The coaching saga is only one part and not the only reason.

[FUBeAR]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/e5/e53d7f8067067a51029cde8260094ff5867b10ab6676b1d493 c8dd8d23c4571b.jpg

+1

[PaladinFan]

Interesting discussion about the Bobby Lamb effect on Furman football. Something I would suggest is missing from the equation that I think also may apply to Wofford's slight step back, is the rise of other programs within the recruiting area and more competition for recruits. Not only do we have a successful startup in Mercer, who clearly has a strong budget, excellent coaches and beautiful facilities. There's Coastal Carolina and Charleston Southern finding success and national rankings, WCU coming back from the dead and Kennesaw State starting football. Oh and let's not forget two programs that were FCS and recruit the region, ASU and GSU and the edge being FBS now gives them when recruiting the some of same players.

Furman's undoing has many parts. The coaching saga is only one part and not the only reason.

I'm a homer, but I think you'll see a better Furman team this year. I really do. I saw flashes of that team last year, so I know its in there.

As to your main point, I think I calculated some 700-800 more scholarship football spots in the last 10-15 years JUST in Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, NC, and SC. I honestly forget if I considered Florida, but when you start adding up Mercer, CCU, Charlotte, App State, Georgia Southern, Presbyterian, Georgia State, Kennesaw State, South Alabama, etc. either as teams starting up football or moving up to a higher class, the number gets big really quickly.

[Toby]

Interesting discussion about the Bobby Lamb effect on Furman football. Something I would suggest is missing from the equation that I think also may apply to Wofford's slight step back, is the rise of other programs within the recruiting area and more competition for recruits. Not only do we have a successful startup in Mercer, who clearly has a strong budget, excellent coaches and beautiful facilities. There's Coastal Carolina and Charleston Southern finding success and national rankings, WCU coming back from the dead and Kennesaw State starting football. Oh and let's not forget two programs that were FCS and recruit the region, ASU and GSU and the edge being FBS now gives them when recruiting the some of same players.

Furman's undoing has many parts. The coaching saga is only one part and not the only reason.

Or the "BLE" xsmiley_wix

Good points, but perhaps a lot of the same type of recruits going to these new programs now were going out-of-state or out of region before. It would be interesting to see the stats on the number of recruits from these states going out-of-state now compared to 5-10 years ago. Maybe out-of-region schools are still getting the same percentage of recruits and everyone is going after the same athletes but maybe not.

[Toby]

While it may be difficult to quantify in the absolute, it is not hard to comprehend when objectively considering the known facts of the matter. Coach Lamb's Recruiting presence/success at Mercer had virtually no effect on the quality of Players signed by Furman from 2011-2013 and, at most, a negligible effect on the results realized by Furman on the field in 2014 and 2015.


So what you are really saying is that the BLE is just getting started and will only grow from here on out.

[walliver]

.

[walliver]

Can someone give a brief synopsis of what has happened to Wofford the last few years?

There have been several issues the last three years.
1) Our long-term DC, Nate Woody, left for App State. His replacement only lasted one year before leaving for personal reasons. Our current DC has had some growing pains but appears to be maturing into the job.
2) A number of offensive linemen have chosen not to return for their 5th-year senior seasons. There probably isn't a pattern, but lack of experience on the O-line has been an issue, especially with pass protection.
3) Complete disarray at QB. We have essentially been playing quarterback by committee the last two years. The coaches have been unable to pick a consistent starter among 3 capable players. Hopefully this issue has been resolved.
4) injuries, lots of injuries.

If this year's team stays healthy, we will compete for another SoCon championship

[OL FU]

I don't think the BLE is really much of an issue other than he left Furman. I am not a Lamb basher. I do think the facilities being 30 years old hurt. (but let's be honest Chuck South ain't playing in the Taj Mahal) Not sure who it was but the rumor was that a donor(s) said no money until there is a new coach. May have been personal. May have been because it was obvious that Furman the last few years under Lamb was way down from previous expectations.

With that said, largely I think Bobby was a really good recruiter and a good coach. I think he made some really bad errors in the last few years that screwed things up. Now that doesn't mean that he would repeat those mistakes again so I think Mercer is safe.:) But switching to the whatever ineffective spread offense when Sorrells was QB was a head shaker. There were one or two problems (1) we didn't have the personnel to run it or (2) the coaches didn't know how to run it. Either way a bad mistake. During the Sorrells QB years we occasionally won by a lot and, more typically, got walloped by a lot. But in neither case did Sorrells ever leave the game to give the back up QB some gametime experience even when our UCLA transfer Forcier was on the team. To me, it quickly became obvious. They wanted Sorrells to leave with Furman's passing record. Which is great but ask a Furman fan to name our best QBs you will hear Martin, Lamb, Hill, etc because the teams won. Imho, and even though Sorrells did get the record, this is not what a coach should do. (and nothing against Jordan, he was a heck of a QB). Then the next year, Forcier isn't the starting QB even though it is pretty obvious from a pure talent standpoint he should be. The next year with Fowler as the coach, Forcier, starting for the first time as a senior with freshman experience, makes Furman look pretty darn good on numerous occasions.

Main thing is I am a Lamb Fan (even though I do think he made some bad choices at FU). He will always be Mr Furman to me (no matter what he thinks)xdrunkyx

[PaladinFan]

I don't think the BLE is really much of an issue other than he left Furman. I am not a Lamb basher. I do think the facilities being 30 years old hurt. (but let's be honest Chuck South ain't playing in the Taj Mahal) Not sure who it was but the rumor was that a donor(s) said no money until there is a new coach. May have been personal. May have been because it was obvious that Furman the last few years under Lamb was way down from previous expectations.

With that said, largely I think Bobby was a really good recruiter and a good coach. I think he made some really bad errors in the last few years that screwed things up. Now that doesn't mean that he would repeat those mistakes again so I think Mercer is safe.:) But switching to the whatever ineffective spread offense when Sorrells was QB was a head shaker. There were one or two problems (1) we didn't have the personnel to run it or (2) the coaches didn't know how to run it. Either way a bad mistake. During the Sorrells QB years we occasionally won by a lot and, more typically, got walloped by a lot. But in neither case did Sorrells ever leave the game to give the back up QB some gametime experience even when our UCLA transfer Forcier was on the team. To me, it quickly became obvious. They wanted Sorrells to leave with Furman's passing record. Which is great but ask a Furman fan to name our best QBs you will hear Martin, Lamb, Hill, etc because the teams won. Imho, and even though Sorrells did get the record, this is not what a coach should do. (and nothing against Jordan, he was a heck of a QB). Then the next year, Forcier isn't the starting QB even though it is pretty obvious from a pure talent standpoint he should be. The next year with Fowler as the coach, Forcier, starting for the first time as a senior with freshman experience, makes Furman look pretty darn good on numerous occasions.

Main thing is I am a Lamb Fan (even though I do think he made some bad choices at FU). He will always be Mr Furman to me (no matter what he thinks)xdrunkyx

Completely on board with that. I wasn't part of his departure from Furman, but my understanding was it was less than pleasant.

Could have a few drinks and talk a lot about Furman's recruiting during the Lamb years. Unquestionably he landed a lot of talented players -- at least 9 that I can think of that were in NFL camps during his head coaching tenure. Clearly talented players.

I do think he fundamentally tried to shift the recruiting both offensively and defensively somewhere around 2006-2007. A shift to a spread look with QBs ill suited to run it followed by an insistence on defense to go for a smaller/faster players to, ostensibly, put more speed on the field with App and GSU. Only now do you see Furman starting to rebuild the size and bulk on defense that used to be a trademark of Paladin football. Furman is as big on both sides of the ball this season as they have been in a decade.

I was and am a big fan of Lamb. Like many Furman fans, I've followed much of his career. I go back and forth on whether his great success at Furman is a product of being a good head coach or riding a supremely talented transfer QB on the back of a defense built by Bobby Johnson. For the same reason, I don't know if Tim Sorrells is more the offensive coordinator that lead the elite Furman offense in the mid-2000s, or more the guy that oversaw last season's horrific display. I do know that once Martin and that defense moved on, the team went from a top 5 program to an also-ran extremely quickly. As someone noted earlier, Fowler inherited several position groups that were in shambles recruiting-wise, particularly the offensive line.

[OL FU]

Completely on board with that. I wasn't part of his departure from Furman, but my understanding was it was less than pleasant.

Could have a few drinks and talk a lot about Furman's recruiting during the Lamb years. Unquestionably he landed a lot of talented players -- at least 9 that I can think of that were in NFL camps during his head coaching tenure. Clearly talented players.

I do think he fundamentally tried to shift the recruiting both offensively and defensively somewhere around 2006-2007. A shift to a spread look with QBs ill suited to run it followed by an insistence on defense to go for a smaller/faster players to, ostensibly, put more speed on the field with App and GSU. Only now do you see Furman starting to rebuild the size and bulk on defense that used to be a trademark of Paladin football. Furman is as big on both sides of the ball this season as they have been in a decade.

I was and am a big fan of Lamb. Like many Furman fans, I've followed much of his career. I go back and forth on whether his great success at Furman is a product of being a good head coach or riding a supremely talented transfer QB on the back of a defense built by Bobby Johnson. For the same reason, I don't know if Tim Sorrells is more the offensive coordinator that lead the elite Furman offense in the mid-2000s, or more the guy that oversaw last season's horrific display. I do know that once Martin and that defense moved on, the team went from a top 5 program to an also-ran extremely quickly. As someone noted earlier, Fowler inherited several position groups that were in shambles recruiting-wise, particularly the offensive line.

Surprisingly, the position he had the most difficult time recruiting for was QB. Let's face it Sorrells came because of Daddy Sorrells. I do think the biggest issue was the defense during those years. We really didn't have a good one post 2004. Even in 2005, we were good because of offense.

[PaladinFan]

Surprisingly, the position he had the most difficult time recruiting for was QB. Let's face it Sorrells came because of Daddy Sorrells. I do think the biggest issue was the defense during those years. We really didn't have a good one post 2004. Even in 2005, we were good because of offense.

I do think you are completely right.

Just thinking back, he had a couple QBs that ended up transferring out (Josh Stepp, Josh Hollingsworth) Inherited Billy Napier and Bo Moore from Bobby Johnson. Renaldo Gray had a good career, but was a converted TE that also played running back. Sorrells was the coach's son. Twice Furman really didn't have a good option at QB they went out and brought in transfers in Martin and Forcier.

Fowler inherited extremely little depth at QB. Focier was coming off injury and had a good senior season in 2011 (properly used), but other than him, it was mostly career third stringers. Reese Hannon started as soon as he arrived on campus.

I will say that depth at QB right now for Furman is encouraging. Two quality starting caliber guys. Couple good looking backups that can start getting reps and be ready to go in a few years.