Holy Cross Announces Future Schedules

[DFW HOYA]

HC joins five other PL schools in aggressively scheduling I-A opponents.

http://www.goholycross.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=33100&ATCLID=211067792

[RichH2]

Lined up an impressive list on northeastern FBS games.Kudos and good luck.
The frustrating bit for Lehigh fans is not their schedule but more that Cross published it. We know we are facing Navy in 18 only because Navy listed it. Otherwise we have no idea what Lehigh plans for future OOC games. Other than an article in which Sterrett and Coen indicated an aversion to FBS games in favor of Ivies and CAA. Is it likely that PL will lose many of these games? Sure. Is there any upside to scheduling an almost certain loss? Yup. They are not body bag games. School makes money. Surely a great recruiting tool. It exposes the players to a much higher game speed play which I think carries over to their later games. Did Cross go too far? Probably. Lehigh? Actually we dont know how they are going at all.
My oft stated opinion is we should look to get a couple of FBS games over 4 years for every recruit class. If rumors are true we had a game with PSU that was cancelled when Franklin came in and schollie restrictions ended. Supposedly they had talks with Cuse that went nowhere.
That was a few years back.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lined up an impressive list on northeastern FBS games.Kudos and good luck.
The frustrating bit for Lehigh fans is not their schedule but more that Cross published it. We know we are facing Navy in 18 only because Navy listed it. Otherwise we have no idea what Lehigh plans for future OOC games. Other than an article in which Sterrett and Coen indicated an aversion to FBS games in favor of Ivies and CAA. Is it likely that PL will win many of these games? Sure. Is there any upside to scheduling an almost certain loss? Yup. They are not body bag games. School makes money. Surely a great recruiting tool. It exposes the players to a much higher game speed play which I think carries over to their later games. Did Cross go too far? Probably. Lehigh? Actually we dont know how they are going at all.
My oft stated opinion is we should look to get a couple of FBS games over 4 years for every recruit class. If rumors are true we had a game with PSU that was cancelled when Franklin came in and schollie restrictions ended. Supposedly they had talks with Cuse that went nowhere.
That was a few years back.

What article did Coen and Sterrett say that? I have no qualms if they did.

I think in some ways they are body bag games. Colgate has gotten crushed in their recent FBS games. I expect that to continue this year against Syracuse. Likewise for Fordham against Navy. Playing Buffalo next season is a good get for Colgate imo. Army was a good catch for Lafayette if the 'Pards weren't coming off a 1-10 season.

[RichH2]

It was in the Brown and White.
Disagree on body bag. Ls sure enough. If you get out of game without disastrous injuries,it is a loss not a body bag. Prior games not really predictive as other than Rams no one at full schollie. But, I agree overloading on FBS OOC games may be too much for our teams. To me the Lehigh approach is overly cautious from appearances. We dont really know.

[Gater]

Here is Coen's quote from the Lehigh school paper:

Coen said that he occasionally gets phone calls in the offseason from less proximate schools such as Montana State University and North Dakota State University looking to schedule games. These schools aren’t just far away though, they’re also very consistently top FCS teams. North Dakota State has won the FCS championship four years in a row.
Coen said that while games like these can be a great experience for the student athletes by exposing them to a different part of the country, they’re just not what they’re looking for.
“There’s no reason to go three quarters of the way across the country to play a team that’s better than you,” he said.
Here is the link:

http://thebrownandwhite.com/2015/10/29/pl-football-scheduling/

Hard to imagine Lehigh scheduling FBS teams if the head coach is talking about not being able to compete with the top schools in the FCS--his words not mine.

Holy Cross is doing exactly what every scholarship school in the Patriot League should be doing because it's what the best schools in the FCS do. Notice how Holy Cross only mentions FBS teams scheduled in the coming years in the release. They are saying they are building something bigger.



What article did Coen and Sterrett say that? I have no qualms if they did.

I think in some ways they are body bag games. Colgate has gotten crushed in their recent FBS games. I expect that to continue this year against Syracuse. Likewise for Fordham against Navy. Playing Buffalo next season is a good get for Colgate imo. Army was a good catch for Lafayette if the 'Pards weren't coming off a 1-10 season.

[RichH2]

I get the feeling that Lehigh is standing on the platform watching the train leave the station. Have no idea whether that is true or not. Just dont know. I do think its going to make it a tougher recruiting lanscape for us in the PL. Could the aggressive scheduling backfire and proe Andy right? Sure that is possible. Cant disagree with Andy's reluctance to schedule to book FCS games way out West. No significant upside to warrant the loss. We already have thise games here with CAA. This year a Big South,2 CAA and 2 IVIES. A good comperirive slate, if not real sexy. I have my own idea of what I would like. A H & H with a SoCon;a MAC and local FBS. A occasional foray beyond our safety zone, along with CAA andvIvies. Local FBS no easy matter. A lot of competition for the few that we have. Sime of that competition is on the train we are not.

[Fordham]

Well done HC!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Here is Coen's quote from the Lehigh school paper:

Coen said that he occasionally gets phone calls in the offseason from less proximate schools such as Montana State University and North Dakota State University looking to schedule games. These schools aren’t just far away though, they’re also very consistently top FCS teams. North Dakota State has won the FCS championship four years in a row.
Coen said that while games like these can be a great experience for the student athletes by exposing them to a different part of the country, they’re just not what they’re looking for.
“There’s no reason to go three quarters of the way across the country to play a team that’s better than you,” he said.
Here is the link:

http://thebrownandwhite.com/2015/10/29/pl-football-scheduling/

Hard to imagine Lehigh scheduling FBS teams if the head coach is talking about not being able to compete with the top schools in the FCS--his words not mine.

Holy Cross is doing exactly what every scholarship school in the Patriot League should be doing because it's what the best schools in the FCS do. Notice how Holy Cross only mentions FBS teams scheduled in the coming years in the release. They are saying they are building something bigger.

Those are pretty weak comments by Coen regarding FCS games. It's funny he brought up Montana State as an example. I would have loved to see Lehigh come out to Bozeman when I was out there. The Bobcats are/were hardly a better team than Lehigh most years. My only thougt is those were all 1-off deals. If so, then Lehigh has the right to say no imo. Plenty of other top tier FCS teams nearby to do H&H's with.

I just don't see how scheduling FBS games that you really have no chance in winning or really competing against makes you "better". I hate the fact Temple is playing Stony Brook this year. Total blah game that our fans have no interest in. From a Lehigh perspective the Navy game in 2018 does nothing for me.

[RichH2]

Can surely agree with a Temple fan's blah reaction to a Stony Brook game. Dont think Navy game for us is guite as meaningless. We compete with them in every other PL sport . Love to play Atmy and Navy regularly. Whether we will or not is unknown.
Not likely we will know anytime soon.
We will know whether our D is improved in a month or so. That is a vastly more pertinent issue for Lehigh now.

[PAllen]

Here is Coen's quote from the Lehigh school paper:

Coen said that he occasionally gets phone calls in the offseason from less proximate schools such as Montana State University and North Dakota State University looking to schedule games. These schools aren’t just far away though, they’re also very consistently top FCS teams. North Dakota State has won the FCS championship four years in a row.
Coen said that while games like these can be a great experience for the student athletes by exposing them to a different part of the country, they’re just not what they’re looking for.
“There’s no reason to go three quarters of the way across the country to play a team that’s better than you,” he said.
Here is the link:

http://thebrownandwhite.com/2015/10/29/pl-football-scheduling/

Hard to imagine Lehigh scheduling FBS teams if the head coach is talking about not being able to compete with the top schools in the FCS--his words not mine.

Holy Cross is doing exactly what every scholarship school in the Patriot League should be doing because it's what the best schools in the FCS do. Notice how Holy Cross only mentions FBS teams scheduled in the coming years in the release. They are saying they are building something bigger.

I can defend the FCS sentiment if not the language. Travelling to Montana State or NDSU, or UNI for a guarantee game does nothing for Lehigh, and a home and home would most likely be a money loser. All that said, LU appears to be running scared from even regional FBS teams who seem to be more than open to scheduling the other PL teams. We've played and done well against Army, Buffalo, and UConn among others in the not so distant past. While we don't need an FBS game every year, we're really missing the boat if we're only trying for one every four years. We should be on the short list for every FBS team from Clemson north.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The problem is competition. Every school in the Northeast wants games with Army, Navy, Syracuse and Boston College, but they only have one opening a year for an FCS game, and it's frequently wrapped up years in advance. The Big 10's current disapproval of FCS games means Penn State, Maryland and Rutgers are out, too. And the ACC schedules many CAA teams.

Temple is a great get for PL teams, but again, they are tied up years in advance.

If the Big 10 would drop their ludicrous disapproval of scheduling FCS games, it would give the Patriot League many more acceptable choices. Penn State would be the most coveted, but Northwestern, Michigan State, Michigan, etc, would also be really intriguing.

I do agree that just scheduling a Sun Belt team or some MAC team just to say that we have an FBS isn't the right move. There's no good reason to schedule Louisiana-Lafayette or Eastern Michigan.

[aceinthehole]

The problem is competition. Every school in the Northeast wants games with Army, Navy, Syracuse and Boston College, but they only have one opening a year for an FCS game, and it's frequently wrapped up years in advance. The Big 10's current disapproval of FCS games means Penn State, Maryland and Rutgers are out, too. And the ACC schedules many CAA teams.

Temple is a great get for PL teams, but again, they are tied up years in advance.

If the Big 10 would drop their ludicrous disapproval of scheduling FCS games, it would give the Patriot League many more acceptable choices. Penn State would be the most coveted, but Northwestern, Michigan State, Michigan, etc, would also be really intriguing.

I do agree that just scheduling a Sun Belt team or some MAC team just to say that we have an FBS isn't the right move. There's no good reason to schedule Louisiana-Lafayette or Eastern Michigan.

Agreed there are not enough "Northeastern" FBS games available for all the FCS schools that want to schedule them, especially with the NEC also getting on the schedules (Wagner, Duquesne, CCSU). The demand for FBS games by FCS schools in the region may be driving down the availability and guarantee fee in the future.

But if the purpose of the FCS-FBS game is to 1) get a paycheck and 2) played a stronger program with more schollys, and 3) increase the exposure of the FCS program, then why are MAC and SunBelt teams a bad idea? Of course no one is going to mistake Arkansas State with Florida State, but any FBS game comes with more media coverage on a National level (ESPN highlights, etc.) than FCS-only matchups.

Personally, I would love to see CCSU and most NEC teams play an annual FBS games vs. a AAC, MAC, or Sun Belt team. This year CCSU will play James Madison and Coastal Carolina on the road without a return game for a fee of about $100k each game. Instead, why not play 1 games vs. an FBS opponent like Middle Tennessee State or Akron for twice as much money? To me, it is a no-brainer.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Agreed there are not enough "Northeastern" FBS games available for all the FCS schools that want to schedule them, especially with the NEC also getting on the schedules (Wagner, Duquesne, CCSU). The demand for FBS games by FCS schools in the region may be driving down the availability and guarantee fee in the future.

But if the purpose of the FCS-FBS game is to 1) get a paycheck and 2) played a stronger program with more schollys, and 3) increase the exposure of the FCS program, then why are MAC and SunBelt teams a bad idea? Sure no one is going to mistake Arkansas State with Florida State, but it FBS games come with more media coverage on a National level (ESPN highlights, etc.)

Personally, I would love to see CCSU and most NEC teams play an annual FBS games vs. a AAC, MAC, or Sun Belt team. This year CCSU will play James Madison and Coastal Carolina on the road without a return game for a fee of about $100k each game. Instead, why not play 1 games vs. an FBS opponent like Middle Tennessee State or Akron for twice as much money? To me, it is a no-brainer.

I'm with you Ace. If Lehigh were play FBS games I'd prefer it to be a G5 game. Uconn, Umass, Army, Temple, Akron, Kent State, Buffalo, Miami(OH), MTSU, ODU, Marshall, ECU, Ohio etc all would work for me. For me the sole purpose for a FBS games is exposure with the possibilty to win 1/6 or so games. If you don't believe (or history has proven) you can stay with 14-21 points point of a particular opponent then the game should not be scheduled. Lehigh simply does not need paycheck money. That is clear by Coen's comments.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm with you Ace. If Lehigh were play FBS games I'd prefer it to be a G5 game. Uconn, Umass, Army, Temple, Akron, Kent State, Buffalo, Miami(OH), MTSU, ODU, Marshall, ECU, Ohio etc all would work for me. For me the sole purpose for a FBS games is exposure with the possibilty to win 1/6 or so games. If you don't believe (or history has proven) you can stay with 14-21 points point of a particular opponent then the game should not be scheduled. Lehigh simply does not need paycheck money. That is clear by Coen's comments.

I have nothing against G5 games, but to me, it depends on the opponent. There's little recruiting or prestige value in flying to rural Louisiana to play UL-LF, or going to Ypsilanti to beat Eastern Michigan. If you're going to fly to Louisiana, play LSU. If you're going to fly to Michigan, play Michigan in the Big House or Michigan State.

Basically, not all G5 games are created equal. Everyone wants games vs. Army and Navy. I think games vs. UConn and Temple are hot properties in the Northeast - I'd be happy if Lehigh scheduled one (or both). It's when you need to charter a flight to games where you need to weigh return vs. cost.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I have nothing against G5 games, but to me, it depends on the opponent. There's little recruiting or prestige value in flying to rural Louisiana to play UL-LF, or going to Ypsilanti to beat Eastern Michigan. If you're going to fly to Louisiana, play LSU. If you're going to fly to Michigan, play Michigan in the Big House or Michigan State.

Basically, not all G5 games are created equal. Everyone wants games vs. Army and Navy. I think games vs. UConn and Temple are hot properties in the Northeast - I'd be happy if Lehigh scheduled one (or both). It's when you need to charter a flight to games where you need to weigh return vs. cost.

You go in a FBS's backyard and win people will take notice. Lehigh has zero business playing LSU, Michigan, Clemson, Michigan State etc. Thankfully those games will never happen.

Lehigh should play games in the Great Lake States and the South because that's where they recruit.

Do PL fans oppose D2 games? If you like FBS games then you should like Lehigh playing Bloomsburg, Shippensburg, ESU etc.

[PAllen]

BC, UMass, Syracuse, Buffalo, Army, UConn, Temple, Akron, Ohio, Toledo, Bolling Green, Marshall, WVU, Navy, UVa, VT, ECU, ODU, Duke, UNC, Wake Forest, NCSU, App. St., Clemson. Some are more intriguing than others, but we should be on every one of these schools' radars. There's plenty there to go around.

[PAllen]

You go in a FBS's backyard and win people will take notice. Lehigh has zero business playing LSU, Michigan, Clemson, Michigan State etc. Thankfully those games will never happen.

Lehigh should play games in the Great Lake States and the South because that's where they recruit.

Do PL fans oppose D2 games? If you like FBS games then you should like Lehigh playing Bloomsburg, Shippensburg, ESU etc.

Why? I do oppose sub D-I games for the PL. I also hate it when Purdue plays FCS schools. It's a matter of perspective. LU vs. Bloomsburg would be a thrilling matchup for Bloomsburg, but does nothing for LU. At least the FBS schools get to rake in the ticket sales from the game against an FCS opponent.

[RichH2]

UCONN UMASS Army Navy are ideal for Lehigh. We have history with most. As noted, competition for these games is intense in the northeast. We were talking to various local FBS team a few years back. Are we still? This is our new world of sheduling. Most other ADs seem to have opted for a proactive approach. Clearly a learning curve for all of them. Some jumped all the way in and others elected to wade in a bit slower. WeWe'll see how the various approahes workout.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lehigh should play games in the Great Lake States and the South because that's where they recruit.

Playing Michigan or Florida will attract more recruits than playing Eastern Michigan or FIU.

Also, someone other than the families of the recruits might actually see them on TV if it's Florida or Michigan. If a Lehigh/FIU game is on ESPN3, what's the big benefit?

Also, maybe Lehigh breaks even on the costs. I am pretty sure, with the size of guarantees offered, playing FIU is a money loser for Lehigh - perhaps even a big money loser.

Now a UConn game, that's a bus ride, and thus not a money loser.

[Franks Tanks]

Why? I do oppose sub D-I games for the PL. I also hate it when Purdue plays FCS schools. It's a matter of perspective. LU vs. Bloomsburg would be a thrilling matchup for Bloomsburg, but does nothing for LU. At least the FBS schools get to rake in the ticket sales from the game against an FCS opponent.

Don't worry, there is very little chance the PSAC will play the PL in football on a regular basis. I do recall that Fordham crushed a very poor Lock Haven team a few years back, but I believe that was the only game between the two conferences in some time.. The PSAC has 16 football playing schools, and only one annual OOC game per year. Given the D2 playoff points system, D2 schools really need to play other D2 schools if at all possible in their OOC matchups.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Don't worry, there is very little chance the PSAC will play the PL in football on a regular basis. I do recall that Fordham crushed a very poor Lock Haven team a few years back, but I believe that was the only game between the two conferences in some time.. The PSAC has 16 football playing schools, and only one annual OOC game per year. Given the D2 playoff points system, D2 schools really need to play other D2 schools if at all possible in their OOC matchups.

This brings up a decent point:

* Mulhlenberg/Lafayette or Moravian/Lehigh would be extremely well-attended games, given they are so close together, but would be so detrimental to postseason and the horrible "optics" today of playing D-III schools that it probably won't happen. Through time, though, that wasn't always the case.

* Colgate opted for a 10 game schedule rather than backfill the schedule with a D-II or D-III opponent. Is it really better to sit at home than to have an 11 game schedule? Colgate apparently thinks so.

If attendance were really driving things (and financing FCS athletic departments), more games like West Chester/Delaware, Moravian/Lehigh, would happen. Also, if the key was "fan experience in the stadium", games like Moravian/Lehigh would have some place, because they'd be better attended than, say, Lehigh/UNI. But in the current college landscape, they don't. The PL schools are asked to operate on an attendance/financing model that mimics the FBS but offers none of the benefits.

[Model Citizen]

* Colgate opted for a 10 game schedule rather than backfill the schedule with a D-II or D-III opponent. Is it really better to sit at home than to have an 11 game schedule? Colgate apparently thinks so.

Would have been great if Colgate had scheduled a Pioneer opponent for one of its empty September Saturdays. Instead, Stetson is playing (NAIA) Warner; Jacksonville is playing (NAIA) Edward Waters; Butler takes on (D-III) Franklin AND (NAIA) Taylor. C'mon Colgate. Throw a dog a bone.

[CFBfan]

BC, UMass, Syracuse, Buffalo, Army, UConn, Temple, Akron, Ohio, Toledo, Bolling Green, Marshall, WVU, Navy, UVa, VT, ECU, ODU, Duke, UNC, Wake Forest, NCSU, App. St., Clemson. Some are more intriguing than others, but we should be on every one of these schools' radars. There's plenty there to go around.

but you're not beacause coen has no balls

[Anthony215]

Here is Coen's quote from the Lehigh school paper:

Coen said that he occasionally gets phone calls in the offseason from less proximate schools such as Montana State University and North Dakota State University looking to schedule games. These schools aren’t just far away though, they’re also very consistently top FCS teams. North Dakota State has won the FCS championship four years in a row.
Coen said that while games like these can be a great experience for the student athletes by exposing them to a different part of the country, they’re just not what they’re looking for.
“There’s no reason to go three quarters of the way across the country to play a team that’s better than you,” he said.
Here is the link:

http://thebrownandwhite.com/2015/10/29/pl-football-scheduling/

Hard to imagine Lehigh scheduling FBS teams if the head coach is talking about not being able to compete with the top schools in the FCS--his words not mine.

Holy Cross is doing exactly what every scholarship school in the Patriot League should be doing because it's what the best schools in the FCS do. Notice how Holy Cross only mentions FBS teams scheduled in the coming years in the release. They are saying they are building something bigger.

Sheesh what a way to show your team you have confidence in their ability to play against another team within your division. Albeit NDSU offers the full 63 scholarship equivalencies as opposed to Lehigh and they also have lower admission standards but sheesh give your boys a shot at a national ranked opponent. Also the FBS games would do a lot for funding. I'd imagine FBS programs even if its the MAC/Sunbelt would pay in the 250-500k range if not up to 500k. Lehigh has Temple, Syracuse, UCONN all within a few hours drive who would pay decent and wouldn't require a overnight schedule. Also that is a prime recruiting catch to tell a recruit we know you can play at the FBS level and got overlooked but every year we have a game scheduled with a big boy opponent that you can showcase your talents against and make the coaches regret not signing you. Me personally as a coach I'd even go as far as to tell my players excel at this level (FCS) and shine in the yearly game against FBS competition and after 2-3 seasons with those game films you may be able to do your final year of eligibility at an FBS school.

[Anthony215]

Would have been great if Colgate had scheduled a Pioneer opponent for one of its empty September Saturdays. Instead, Stetson is playing (NAIA) Warner; Jacksonville is playing (NAIA) Edward Waters; Butler takes on (D-III) Franklin AND (NAIA) Taylor. C'mon Colgate. Throw a dog a bone.

I find that odd there are area D2 programs without an 11th game as well and would have been willing to travel north to NY for a matchup with Colgate for a nominal fee. They dropped the ball on that, an extra home game is revenue that could have been generated while giving the young guys a chance to play in a meaningful game other than spring game/summer scrimmages and tune up for the PL schedule and their OOC matchups.

[Anthony215]

Don't worry, there is very little chance the PSAC will play the PL in football on a regular basis. I do recall that Fordham crushed a very poor Lock Haven team a few years back, but I believe that was the only game between the two conferences in some time.. The PSAC has 16 football playing schools, and only one annual OOC game per year. Given the D2 playoff points system, D2 schools really need to play other D2 schools if at all possible in their OOC matchups.

The PSAC ruffled many fans feathers with their ridiculous 1 OOC game per year rule. My alma mata Shippensburg played at Liberty about 6-7 years ago and lost by about 24 points but the experience the players gained was second to none playing in front of 18k fans. The school also made a decent payday which helped fund the stadium renovations (transitioned from natural grass to field turf). The top PSAC schools like California, IUP, Slippery Rock, Bloomsburg, Shippensburg in their good years would be competitive with the PL top 4 teams. I'd never want to see Millersville or Cheyney play any FCS team as they are downright terrible...

[Son of Eli]

What article did Coen and Sterrett say that? I have no qualms if they did.

I think in some ways they are body bag games. Colgate has gotten crushed in their recent FBS games. I expect that to continue this year against Syracuse. Likewise for Fordham against Navy. Playing Buffalo next season is a good get for Colgate imo. Army was a good catch for Lafayette if the 'Pards weren't coming off a 1-10 season.


Yale in 2014 was a body bag game for Lehigh. Point is injuries happen against all levels of competition. Might as well take the upsides of playing a FBS school.

[kdinva]

HC joins five other PL schools in aggressively scheduling I-A opponents.

http://www.goholycross.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=33100&ATCLID=211067792

Love this sort of subpage on the website........Wish VMI did same....

http://www.goholycross.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=33100&ATCLID=211054899

[RichH2]

Yale in 2014 was a body bag game for Lehigh. Point is injuries happen against all levels of competition. Might as well take the upsides of playing a FBS school.

We call that the chop block game. Lost 3 OLinemen to chops.

[Schism55]

Well done Crusaders! Show 'em how its done.

[UNHWildcat18]

Congrats Holy Cross, wish UNH could play those schools but they refuse to play us and vice versa. Also NO FBS WANTS TO PLAY LEHIGH MUWHAHAHAHA SUCKERS!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The PSAC ruffled many fans feathers with their ridiculous 1 OOC game per year rule. My alma mata Shippensburg played at Liberty about 6-7 years ago and lost by about 24 points but the experience the players gained was second to none playing in front of 18k fans. The school also made a decent payday which helped fund the stadium renovations (transitioned from natural grass to field turf). The top PSAC schools like California, IUP, Slippery Rock, Bloomsburg, Shippensburg in their good years would be competitive with the PL top 4 teams. I'd never want to see Millersville or Cheyney play any FCS team as they are downright terrible...

Bloomsburg gave JMU a helluva game one year when Brittingham was still there. I think the top PSAC teams would be competitive with the PL most years as well.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

UCONN UMASS Army Navy are ideal for Lehigh. We have history with most. As noted, competition for these games is intense in the northeast. We were talking to various local FBS team a few years back. Are we still? This is our new world of sheduling. Most other ADs seem to have opted for a proactive approach. Clearly a learning curve for all of them. Some jumped all the way in and others elected to wade in a bit slower. WeWe'll see how the various approahes workout.

Have they taken a proactive approach because they need additional funding to appease fickle administrations who are still not totally onboard with the scholarships? I consider HC's move to schedule 2 FBS games in 2020 downright dumb. They simply haven't been good enough or proven capable of taken on that challenge over the last 20+ years. I really don't see that as benefiting HC football.

I was at Colgate today and the guys were talking about their new hockey arena. The one guy who works at Seven Oaks played for Colgate when they went to the title game. He flat out said they football team is being used as a pawn to help pay some bills.

[RichH2]

Have they taken a proactive approach because they need additional funding to appease fickle administrations who are still not totally onboard with the scholarships? I consider HC's move to schedule 2 FBS games in 2020 downright dumb. They simply haven't been good enough or proven capable of taken on that challenge over the last 20+ years. I really don't see that as benefiting HC football.

I was at Colgate today and the guys were talking about their new hockey arena. The one guy who works at Seven Oaks played for Colgate when they went to the title game. He flat out said they football team is being used as a pawn to help pay some bills.

Perhaps so owl. Both fan bases are fixated on past glories in the old university division. Rest of us that had football were College division. That plays a large factor for both rushes to FBS games. Cross has had trouble winning in PL for years. Gilmore has brought in much better talent the last 2 years. Pine clearly finally got Admissions to stop hammering Gilmore. Not nearlt enough to compete with those FBS teams. Gate has a much more solid foundation, enough at least to make a decent showing. Both will rake in some serious cash. Cant hurt :)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Perhaps so owl. Both fan bases are fixated on past glories in the old university division. Rest of us that had football were College division. That plays a large factor for both rushes to FBS games. Cross has had trouble winning in PL for years. Gilmore has brought in much better talent the last 2 years. Pine clearly finally got Admissions to stop hammering Gilmore. Not nearlt enough to compete with those FBS teams. Gate has a much more solid foundation, enough at least to make a decent showing. Both will rake in some serious cash. Cant hurt :)

'Gate has a win over Buffalo the year they went to the title game in '03. Outside of that they have not been competitive in any of their FBS games over the last 15 years. Their performances against Syracuse since the mid 50's are comical. Completely outclassed...

The PL has 5 FBS wins since the start of the playoff era. Those 5 wins came against Buffalo twice, Army twice and Temple when we went 2-10. All but HC in '01 against Army (Ari Confessor went beast mode) were ranked iirc. So scholarship, no scholarship, need base whatever, they were FCS good....

[RichH2]

'Gate has a win over Buffalo the year they went to the title game in '03. Outside of that they have not been competitive in any of their FBS games over the last 15 years. Their performances against Syracuse since the mid 50's are comical. Completely outclassed...

The PL has 5 FBS wins since the start of the playoff era. Those 5 wins came against Buffalo twice, Army twice and Temple when we went 2-10. All but HC in '01 against Army (Ari Confessor went beast mode) were ranked iirc. So scholarship, no scholarship, need base whatever, they were FCS good....

I think you have stuck yourself in a similar box to their fans. History. Pre schollie history not really relevant to full schollie squads now. Still think PL a year or two away. Gate will show up surprised if they get any Ws. Cross just not ready yet at all. Getting some very good talent and more speed but nearly the depth even for PL play.

[Gater]

The Temple fan doesn't seem to understand what is happening. The Patriot League got scholarships. All of the scholarship schools should expect to compete for the national title. Part of being an upper echelon FCS team is playing FBS teams. It helps with recruiting. It gets alumni excited. It's what the players want. What non-scholarship Colgate teams did against FBS schools is meaningless. Colgate has never had a full scholarship team play an FBS school. They will next year. You don't want Temple playing these teams. Terrific. But if you want Lehigh to be good, they had better play these games.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The Temple fan doesn't seem to understand what is happening. The Patriot League got scholarships. All of the scholarship schools should expect to compete for the national title. Part of being an upper echelon FCS team is playing FBS teams. It helps with recruiting. It gets alumni excited. It's what the players want. What non-scholarship Colgate teams did against FBS schools is meaningless. Colgate has never had a full scholarship team play an FBS school. They will next year. You don't want Temple playing these teams. Terrific. But if you want Lehigh to be good, they had better play these games.

I'm of the belief that even with scholarships the league will do well to reach where it was from '97-'05. I completely disagree with your take that what Colgate did without scholarships is meaningless. They went to the title game and finished #2 in the country. I'd place money that Colgate does not reach that level over the next 5-10 years with scholarship. The odds would be in my favor on that one. Lehigh finished ranked #5/#6 in 2011. Scholarsips/no scholarships is purely semantics imo. The bottom line is they were considered one of the top FCS teams in the country that year.

I've seen full scholarship Fordham. Solid but not spectacular. I'll gladly take some of those "inferior" non-scholly Lehigh, Colgate and Lafayette teams from the past over the recent Ram squads.

[RichH2]

Agree owl those teams likely better but again not comparable to today. Lehigh had a great niche. Much less competition for talent. No Big South. No NEC. A larger disparity with Ivies with admission standards. Now Monmouth Stony Brook Albany and a schollie NEC.Add in the much smaller admissions standards with Ivies not to mention their amping up their recruiting and need aid. Ivies have no schollue or monetary limit on football spending.
Much different landscape now.

[Sader87]

As others have stated here, if you're a Holy Cross alumnus of about 45-50 or ovah, you remembah the annual BC game, the near annual Army game, games against other 1-A/FBS schools (Air Force, Rutgers, Temple, Syracuse etc) in the 1970s and 1980s. Did we mostly lose those games in the 70s and 80s? You betcha...but it was exciting to have those games on the schedule and the rare wins brought unbridled joy.

The Patriot League era in football has mostly been a disastah for Holy Cross. No slight on the league, we just nevah had a handle on how to negotiate non-scholarship football imo. The return of scholarships, the upgrade of the schedules, the investment in new indoor practice facilities etc. etc. will hopefully bring Holy Cross back into the proximity of where we were football-wise prior to dropping scholarships.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Agree owl those teams likely better but again not comparable to today. Lehigh had a great niche. Much less competition for talent. No Big South. No NEC. A larger disparity with Ivies with admission standards. Now Monmouth Stony Brook Albany and a schollie NEC.Add in the much smaller admissions standards with Ivies not to mention their amping up their recruiting and need aid. Ivies have no schollue or monetary limit on football spending.
Much different landscape now.

Rich, the PL was scheduling FBS games back then. If FBS games are such a hit now with recruits my guess is they were 15-20 years ago too. I was at Army in '95 and Buffalo in '02.

I know the landscape is different but the PL is still a "unique" league due to the AI, non redshirting, "administrative hurdles" etc. that still exist. The one thing they don't face, generally speaking, that a large portion of FCS does is severe monetary issues (well Georgetown does according to DFW) and state related political bs. The IL ramping up also affects the CAA and even the elite academic schools in FBS. Given the fact the PL went scholarship it only makes sense the IL made a move to counter it. So if they're ramping up, they're just doing their part to stay competitive in FCS too. Which they've been the last 15-20 years dating back to Bags beastly teams at Penn.

I just don't see how this obsession with FBS games matters that much when it comes to improving the quality of each program. I feel like it's more to do with trying to live their "big time" football dreams vicariously through these games. Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross, Fordham etc are 3rd class citizens in college football. That will not change no matter how many FBS games you play and lose. Even winning guarantees you nothing. Did Portland State get any sort of trophy last year for winning two FBS games? Any tshirts made, maybe? The only thing the win over UNT got them was replacing Lehigh in the record books...:p

They have to compete with Monmouth, SBU, Albany etc now instead of Umass, UConn, Northeastern, Hofstra etc then. Things always change in certain aspects but in the grand scheme of things " the more they change, the more they stay the same".

I have stated I don't oppose FBS games for Lehigh. I think they've gone way way too long without one. My point is choose wisely, very wisely. Don't schedule an opponent that you can't compete against. There's no glory in getting your ass kicked over and over. That's called insanity...

[Sader87]

Not to be a dick (but I will be here), I think most HC alums/fans would rather play (and most assuredly lose to) BC, Navy, Syracuse than schedule another school from a NEC, Big South, Pioneer etc. league

Maybe we are masochists....hey, we're (mostly) Catholic after all xdrunkyx.

Point being, as I've stated in other threads, Holy Cross is kind of an anomaly in the FCS world....most Holy Cross fans (of a certain age anyway) would rather play schools like BC, Syracuse, Navy, Harvard, Yale etc in the regulah season than play schools that might help them get an FCS playoff bid.

[PAllen]

Did Portland State get any sort of trophy last year for winning two FBS games? Any tshirts made, maybe? The only thing the win over UNT got them was replacing Lehigh in the record books...:p


PSU got a respected win in their home recruiting ground. The players had a great experience. They were guaranteed a playoff spot with 4 games to go. The program made a lot of money for improvements throughout the athletic department.

None of that is even possible with Lehigh's current scheduling mentality.

I'm tired of playing PFL and NEC teams. A few Ivies, and one or two CAA teams to accompany a regional or relevant FBS at least every other year. That's what Joe should be aiming for.

To steal from one of the political threads:
"You miss 100% of the shots that you don't take."

[UNHWildcat18]

Not to be a dick (but I will be here), I think most HC alums/fans would rather play (and most assuredly lose to) BC, Navy, Syracuse than schedule another school from a NEC, Big South, Pioneer etc. league

Maybe we are masochists....hey, we're (mostly) Catholic after all xdrunkyx.

Point being, as I've stated in other threads, Holy Cross is kind of an anomaly in the FCS world....most Holy Cross fans (of a certain age anyway) would rather play schools like BC, Syracuse, Navy, Harvard, Yale etc in the regulah season than play schools that might help them get an FCS playoff bid.

Not that the doomsday would ever happen but if the CAA crumbled and AE ever started football with the 4 schools plus URI I'd welcome a 63 scholarship HC with open arms. Not sure what would happen to the other CAA teams though. I'd actually prefer that if UNH schedules PL teams over the next decade that it just be HC

[Lehigh Football Nation]

PSU got a respected win in their home recruiting ground. The players had a great experience. They were guaranteed a playoff spot with 4 games to go. The program made a lot of money for improvements throughout the athletic department.

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2015/10/10/9494755/portland-state-vikings-football-washington-state-north-texas-fcs-win-records

$425,000 is not only a great hunk of change, it's the worst investment North Texas ever made xlolx

However, most MAC teams are not offering $425,000 for games. That UNT game was an outlier in many ways.

[Gater]

I agree with everything PAllen said.

As far as HC not caring about the playoffs, I would imagine that would be different if the great HC teams from the 80's would have been allowed to play in the playoffs--it would be one of the things HC fans were missing. (Imagine how many, "We won two national championships now look at us" posts there would be.) Holy Cross has played one playoff game in the past 30 years so there's a reason fans aren't that interested in them. Only two PL teams have won more than one playoff game so there has never been that much of a reason for any casual fan of any PL team to care. Hopefully, the playoffs will mean a lot more to the entire league in the coming years. Richmond met Bill and Mary in the playoffs this year. Would imagine HC fans would get pretty excited about a HC-Lehigh playoff game. Though to your point, I'm not sure if anything would measure up to taking down BC--so you guys should go ahead and do that.



PSU got a respected win in their home recruiting ground. The players had a great experience. They were guaranteed a playoff spot with 4 games to go. The program made a lot of money for improvements throughout the athletic department.

None of that is even possible with Lehigh's current scheduling mentality.

I'm tired of playing PFL and NEC teams. A few Ivies, and one or two CAA teams to accompany a regional or relevant FBS at least every other year. That's what Joe should be aiming for.

To steal from one of the political threads:
"You miss 100% of the shots that you don't take."

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

PSU got a respected win in their home recruiting ground. The players had a great experience. They were guaranteed a playoff spot with 4 games to go. The program made a lot of money for improvements throughout the athletic department.

None of that is even possible with Lehigh's current scheduling mentality.

I'm tired of playingPFL and NEC teams. A few Ivies, and one or two CAA teams to accompany a regional or relevant FBS at least every other year. That's what Joe should be aiming for.

To steal from one of the political threads:
"You miss 100% of the shots that you don't take."

Portland State had a great year no doubt. But so did a lot of other teams that didn't have a single FBS win. We'll see if they're able to build off it or if last season was a flash in the pan. Historically, the Vikings track record is spotty at best.

PSU did not have a playoff bid sewn up with 4 games to go. They certainly built great equity by winning those games but it's not like the selection committee gave them a top seed. Had Lehigh beaten UNH and Villanova in 2010 they would have received a better seed than PSU last year imo.

Lehigh has only played one PFL team ever, Drake in 2007 and 2010. CCSU is the only current NEC team Lehigh plays. Nearly every team in the country schedules one "should win" game". For that reason those type of opponents are not going away completely.

Lehigh has scheduled two CAA teams twice in the same season this decade, 2010 and 2014. In 2011 they had UNH and nationally ranked Liberty from the Big South. Lehigh plays one of the best all FCS schedules in the country this year. Last years slate was really good too.

I think Sterrett and Coen have done an excellent job in general this decade outside of 2012. My biggest gripe with the schedules is they consist of the same teams on a rolling basis. I like Princeton as the yearly IL rival but branch out beyond that. How about Dartmouth, Brown and Harvard ( I know, I know)? Getting Penn back on the schedule is a great get. I hope they come and go so there's some novelty.

[Go...gate]

Have they taken a proactive approach because they need additional funding to appease fickle administrations who are still not totally onboard with the scholarships? I consider HC's move to schedule 2 FBS games in 2020 downright dumb. They simply haven't been good enough or proven capable of taken on that challenge over the last 20+ years. I really don't see that as benefiting HC football.

I was at Colgate today and the guys were talking about their new hockey arena. The one guy who works at Seven Oaks played for Colgate when they went to the title game. He flat out said they football team is being used as a pawn to help pay some bills.

?????????????????

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

?????????????????

He said the school has the team playing "less than ideal" schedules as a way to show the program is not a fiscal anchor. He made it sound like the administration values road games over homes games due to game day costs of hosting as opposed to hitting the road and receiving a check.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

He said the school has the team playing "less than ideal" schedules as a way to show the program is not a fiscal anchor. He made it sound like the administration values road games over homes games due to game day costs of hosting as opposed to hitting the road and receiving a check.

You could have come to this conclusion by looking at any of Colgate's schedules during the last five years. Having said that, what's bad about that? If the occasional FBS game helps keep Colgate in the black, I have no problem with it.

The curious part is eschewing a home game altogether, or (if some have intimated on here) actually dropped a home-and-home series in order to have a 10 game schedule.

[Go...gate]

He said the school has the team playing "less than ideal" schedules as a way to show the program is not a fiscal anchor. He made it sound like the administration values road games over homes games due to game day costs of hosting as opposed to hitting the road and receiving a check.

That is nothing new. In fact, it is a Colgate tradition dating back 125 years. I am old enough to remember playing two home games out of ten or three out of eleven each year. If anything, Colgate seems to be moving back in that direction in favor of a better schedule.

[2ram]

Here is Coen's quote from the Lehigh school paper:
Coen said that while games like these can be a great experience for the student athletes by exposing them to a different part of the country, they’re just not what they’re looking for.
“There’s no reason to go three quarters of the way across the country to play a team that’s better than you,” he said.
Here is the link:

http://thebrownandwhite.com/2015/10/29/pl-football-scheduling/

Hard to imagine Lehigh scheduling FBS teams if the head coach is talking about not being able to compete with the top schools in the FCS--his words not mine.


teams being better wasn't the point.

his exact words include "across the country to play a team that's better". intimating that if they didn't have to travel cross country, then playing a team that's better would be ok. and will be proved out by the scheduling of northeastern FBS teams, like navy... or even FCS teams like villanova.

[RichH2]

teams being better wasn't the point.

his exact words include "across the country to play a team that's better". intimating that if they didn't have to travel cross country, then playing a team that's better would be ok. and will be proved out by the scheduling of northeastern FBS teams, like navy... or even FCS teams like villanova.

Never had the impresdion that Andy shied away from tough competition. He just seems to prefer local opponents. A one off out in North Dakota makes little sense when you play Nova et al every year here. May well be the issue with scheduling FBS games. So far we have lost out. My point is that Lehigh fans just dont know. Joe does not release future OOC schedules. Never has. For me it would be nice to know what direction we are going in.

[Gate83]

He said the school has the team playing "less than ideal" schedules as a way to show the program is not a fiscal anchor. He made it sound like the administration values road games over homes games due to game day costs of hosting as opposed to hitting the road and receiving a check.

Owl, know your source well and would just caution to take his opinions with a huge grain of salt... he will always impute a negative implication to anything the school does. As I've said previously, dropping Bryant was a Board decision dictated to athletics in an attempt to upgrade our schedules and play games against schools that will attract alumni interest. I don't think they particularly care whether those games are home or away, and like Go Gate says our history has been more on the road than home anyway. Anyway, I don't think "proving the program is not a fiscal anchor" enters into our scheduling philosophy. That's pure Doug speak!

[TheValleyRaider]

Owl, know your source well and would just caution to take his opinions with a huge grain of salt... he will always impute a negative implication to anything the school does. As I've said previously, dropping Bryant was a Board decision dictated to athletics in an attempt to upgrade our schedules and play games against schools that will attract alumni interest. I don't think they particularly care whether those games are home or away, and like Go Gate says our history has been more on the road than home anyway. Anyway, I don't think "proving the program is not a fiscal anchor" enters into our scheduling philosophy. That's pure Doug speak!

I think that's the key distinction in scheduling a game against Penn State vs. Michigan or Michigan St. (using names that appeared earlier in the thread).

I'm sympathetic to Owl's point that there isn't much to be gained on a football-level from going to a perennial Top 25 FBS program. Where I would differ is the other facets of schedule. Penn State still resonates with part of the alumni base because of Colgate's history with them. Things that draw alumni attention to the program do help draw money and connect interest between class years. Those kinds of things are harder to quantify than wins or losses or program revenue, but we can't pretend they don't exist.

You don't get that, from a Colgate perspective, when you're talking about LSU or UCLA (to name 2 random top 25 programs)

[DFW HOYA]

Penn State still resonates with part of the alumni base because of Colgate's history with them.

What are the ties between the schools? They have not played a series in a very long time.

[Franks Tanks]

I think that's the key distinction in scheduling a game against Penn State vs. Michigan or Michigan St. (using names that appeared earlier in the thread).

I'm sympathetic to Owl's point that there isn't much to be gained on a football-level from going to a perennial Top 25 FBS program. Where I would differ is the other facets of schedule. Penn State still resonates with part of the alumni base because of Colgate's history with them. Things that draw alumni attention to the program do help draw money and connect interest between class years. Those kinds of things are harder to quantify than wins or losses or program revenue, but we can't pretend they don't exist.

You don't get that, from a Colgate perspective, when you're talking about LSU or UCLA (to name 2 random top 25 programs)

Don't mean to be that guy, but what history does Colgate have with Penn State? Colgate last played Penn State 36 years ago, and twice since 1950. Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette have all played PSU more times than Colgate, although not more recently than Colgate.

[TheValleyRaider]

What are the ties between the schools? They have not played a series in a very long time.

Last meeting 1980, 14 games according to cfbdatawarehouse. More games against PSU than schools like Navy, William & Mary, Penn, or Harvard.

It's a tenuous connection, but I did say it was more ephemeral. People "feel" like there's a connection, which means, on some level, that there is. Compare it to other schools people throw out on threads like these (Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Duke)

[TheValleyRaider]

I would add that we're only talking about our perspective here. To a Penn State, playing any Patriot League team barely registers except as another game they pay for in the season ticket package. They may say things like "Oh Lehigh, that's close by, and we used to play them some," but that's justification after the fact. I suspect they spend little time or energy discussing which FCS school to play, whether it's Colgate, Lehigh, or anyone else in the subdivision (except maybe NDSU)

[Gate83]

Last meeting 1980, 14 games according to cfbdatawarehouse. More games against PSU than schools like Navy, William & Mary, Penn, or Harvard.

It's a tenuous connection, but I did say it was more ephemeral. People "feel" like there's a connection, which means, on some level, that there is. Compare it to other schools people throw out on threads like these (Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Duke)

Said another way, 2 years ago we went to Ball State and the level of apathy about that game couldn't have been higher. Last year our FBS was Navy, turnout & alumni interest was outstanding. Syracuse, Buffalo and Army the next three years make all the sense in the world, and reflect the "alumni interest" scheduling philosophy.

[Sader87]

Agree with our Colgate brethren here...as a HC fan, I have zero interest in playing an FBS school from the MAC, Sun Belt et al just to say we are playing an FBS school. The FBS schools on our future schedules from 2017-2021 (BC, UConn, Navy and Syracuse) all have some combination of regional/institutional/historical interest. I'm sure we'll try to keep it that way, adding in a Army, UMass (maybe a Duke or Wake) as well down the road.

Holy Cross is in a position (as much as anyone is I suppose) were they don't have to look for a $$$/body-bag game against a Florida St, LSU, Alabama etc. nor should they imo.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Owl, know your source well and would just caution to take his opinions with a huge grain of salt... he will always impute a negative implication to anything the school does. As I've said previously, dropping Bryant was a Board decision dictated to athletics in an attempt to upgrade our schedules and play games against schools that will attract alumni interest. I don't think they particularly care whether those games are home or away, and like Go Gate says our history has been more on the road than home anyway. Anyway, I don't think "proving the program is not a fiscal anchor" enters into our scheduling philosophy. That's pure Doug speak!

If that is the case, and you're not the only one saying that, it's awfully weird that the Board essentially decided that a week of scrimmaging on campus was more of an upgrade to the schedule/a vehicle to increase alumni interest than playing Bryant. Also, after having made that big mistake of dropping Bryant, then deciding that scrimmaging on campus was better for the schedule/and increase in alumni interest than inviting a PSAC school, RPI, or Hamilton to Andy Kerr in order to play a game that counts.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Owl, know your source well and would just caution to take his opinions with a huge grain of salt... he will always impute a negative implication to anything the school does. As I've said previously, dropping Bryant was a Board decision dictated to athletics in an attempt to upgrade our schedules and play games against schools that will attract alumni interest. I don't think they particularly care whether those games are home or away, and like Go Gate says our history has been more on the road than home anyway. Anyway, I don't think "proving the program is not a fiscal anchor" enters into our scheduling philosophy. That's pure Doug speak!

Fair enough. It was a good convo involving Colgate, Cornell and Syracuse. Just like on here, it was just one persons opinion. There does seem to be a basis for the comments though even if his motive was/is different.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Agree with our Colgate brethren here...as a HC fan, I have zero interest in playing an FBS school from the MAC, Sun Belt et al just to say we are playing an FBS school. The FBS schools on our future schedules from 2017-2021 (BC, UConn, Navy and Syracuse) all have some combination of regional/institutional/historical interest. I'm sure we'll try to keep it that way, adding in a Army, UMass (maybe a Duke or Wake) as well down the road.

Holy Cross is in a position (as much as anyone is I suppose) were they don't have to look for a $$$/body-bag game against a Florida St, LSU, Alabama etc. nor should they imo.

This are the FBS opponents each PL school has legitimate ties with outside of Army and Navy...

Colgate - Syracuse and Rutgers
Lehigh - Rutgers
Lafayette - Rutgers
Holy Cross - Boston College
Bucknell - Temple
Fordham - ??
Georgetown - ??

[Sader87]

This are the FBS opponents each PL school has legitimate ties with outside of Army and Navy...

Colgate - Syracuse and Rutgers
Lehigh - Rutgers
Lafayette - Rutgers
Holy Cross - Boston College
Bucknell - Temple
Fordham - ??
Georgetown - ??

Both were D2/FCS when playing HC in the past, but both UMass (50 meetings) and UConn (28 meetings) have pretty strong ties in playing Holy Cross in football.

[DFW HOYA]

This are the FBS opponents each PL school has legitimate ties with outside of Army and Navy...

Georgetown - Boston College, Syracuse, Maryland, Navy...

..and none of them will be on a schedule. Comments to follow.

[Gate83]

When I had the conversation with our AD last Fall, the intent was definitely to replace Bryant with a more meaningful game, a plan that obviously didn't work out. Dunno the rationale behind not filling with a lower level school as you suggest. Very interested to see if they can plug the Bryant hole in the '17 schedule, as dropping that series looks even worse if we go with a 10 game schedule two years in a row...

[jcitybone]

Both were D2/FCS when playing HC in the past, but both UMass (50 meetings) and UConn (28 meetings) have pretty strong ties in playing Holy Cross in football.

HC also has played Syracuse 28 times, albeit with a not so stellar record of 5-23. Last game was a 1973 5-3 Syracuse win in Worcester on a very cold November Saturday (I was there--my freshmen year at HC.)

[NY Crusader 2010]

Agree with our Colgate brethren here...as a HC fan, I have zero interest in playing an FBS school from the MAC, Sun Belt et al just to say we are playing an FBS school.

I agree somewhat, but if for some reason we can't get the likes of BC, UConn, Syracuse or Army on our schedule one year, I wouldn't mind a MAC game. It would certainly be a good measuring stick competition-wise, we might have a chance to win and we do recruit a lot in Ohio, Illinois and Michigan. Buffalo is also not a terrible drive from Worcester.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross, as a scholarship team, has always recruited well in Ohio, Michigan etc......we don't need to play a MAC school to make that so imo...

[Gangtackle11]

It's all about supply & demand with FBS scheduling vs. FCS

The issue was stated before is there isn't enough FBS football to accommodate the FCS teams in the Northeast. Rutgers & Maryland are no longer scheduling FCS opponents. This leaves BC, Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, Temple, Army, Navy to accommodate interested teams from the PL, CAA, & NEC.

Taking a look at future schedules FCS teams from the CAA, PL, & NEC it appears they will have to look at more G5 teams & probably travel more than they like to get a FBS game.

2016:
Colgate @ Syracuse
Villanova @ Pitt
Stony Brook @ Temple
Rhode Island @ Kansas
Maine @ UConn
Wagner @ BC
W&M @ NC State
Fordham @ Navy
JMU @ North Carolina
Towson @ USF
Delaware @ Wake Forest
Elon @ Charlotte
UNH @ San Diego State
Albany @ Buffalo
Monmouth @ Kent State
Maine @ Toledo
Richmond @ Virginia

2017
Villanova @ Temple
Holy Cross @ UConn
JMU @ East Carolina
Stony Brook @ USF
Albany @ ODU
Colgate @ Buffalo
Rhode Island @ Central Michigan
Elon @ Toledo
UNH @ Georgia Southern
W&M @ Virginia

2018
Holy Cross @ BC
Villanova @ Temple
JMU @ NC State
Lehigh @ Navy
Rhode Island @ UConn
Elon @ USF
Albany @ Pitt
Fordham @ Charlotte
W&M @ Virginia Tech
Richmond @ Virginia
UNH @ Colorado

2019
Richmond @ BC
Holy Cross @ Navy
Maine @ UMass
Holy Cross @ Syracuse
Wagner @ UConn
Delaware @ Pitt
Robert Morris @ Buffalo
Rhode Island @ Ohio

2020
Delaware @ NC State
Bucknell @ Army
Richmond @ Pitt
Fordham @ Hawaii

[DFW HOYA]

It's all about supply & demand with FBS scheduling vs. FCS

The issue was stated before is there isn't enough FBS football to accommodate the FCS teams in the Northeast. Rutgers & Maryland are no longer scheduling FCS opponents. This leaves BC, Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, Temple, Army, Navy to accommodate interested teams from the PL, CAA, & NEC.


You could also add West Virginia, Buffalo, UConn, UMass, Marshall, and Old Dominion to the list but the short answer is that Eastern I-AA teams can't expect a ready supply of guarantee games. There's plenty of football west of I-81: get out on the road.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Don't forget there are also MEAC and Big South teams all up and down the east coast that are looking for guarantee games.

I would love the idea of Lehigh playing Virginia, Virginia Tech, or Old Dominion, but it seems like those three dance cards always get filled up first. Virginia and Tech conservatively have about 20 schools from the Patriot League, CAA, SoCon, Big South, MEAC, and perhaps the NEC calling them for one possible game a year.

[Gangtackle11]

Don't forget there are also MEAC and Big South teams all up and down the east coast that are looking for guarantee games.

I would love the idea of Lehigh playing Virginia, Virginia Tech, or Old Dominion, but it seems like those three dance cards always get filled up first. Virginia and Tech conservatively have about 20 schools from the Patriot League, CAA, SoCon, Big South, MEAC, and perhaps the NEC calling them for one possible game a year.

Looking at their recent and future scheduling Virginia is staying more & more in state with FCS opponents. Also appears to be the same for Duke.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Looking at their recent and future scheduling Virginia is staying more & more in state with FCS opponents. Also appears to be the same for Duke.

Duke literally has an FCS school, NC-Central, that is in the shadow of their school and basically has a game at Duke whenever they so desire. Why would Duke pay to fly Lehigh down there to embarrass them for a second time when they can pay a fraction of the cost and get a team whose fan base shares the same city?

This illustrates well the extra challenge. As you go west of I-78, you are competing against "backyard schools". Not that it's impossible, just that it's a challenge.

[RichH2]

Duke literally has an FCS school, NC-Central, that is in the shadow of their school and basically has a game at Duke whenever they so desire. Why would Duke pay to fly Lehigh down there to embarrass them for a second time when they can pay a fraction of the cost and get a team whose fan base shares the same city?

This illustrates well the extra challenge. As you go west of I-78, you are competing against "backyard schools". Not that it's impossible, just that it's a challenge.

The landscape is what it is. Challenging for all FCS teams. Some PL teams have worked this landscape very well. Overall PL has assembled a very good package of FBS games. Definitely will boost our overall SOS.

[Gangtackle11]

I don't know why Virginia or the ACC NC schools would go out of state for FCS. Same with Georgia Tech.

For example, Public school UVA or Va.Tech playing Norfolk St., Hampton, W&M keeps the game guarantee $$$ in the state university system.

The Northeast schools have little opportunity.

[Anthony215]

It's all about supply & demand with FBS scheduling vs. FCS

The issue was stated before is there isn't enough FBS football to accommodate the FCS teams in the Northeast. Rutgers & Maryland are no longer scheduling FCS opponents. This leaves BC, Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, Temple, Army, Navy to accommodate interested teams from the PL, CAA, & NEC.

Taking a look at future schedules FCS teams from the CAA, PL, & NEC it appears they will have to look at more G5 teams & probably travel more than they like to get a FBS game.

2016:
Colgate @ Syracuse
Villanova @ Pitt
Stony Brook @ Temple
Rhode Island @ Kansas
Maine @ UConn
Wagner @ BC
W&M @ NC State
Fordham @ Navy
JMU @ North Carolina
Towson @ USF
Delaware @ Wake Forest
Elon @ Charlotte
UNH @ San Diego State
Albany @ Buffalo
Monmouth @ Kent State
Maine @ Toledo
Richmond @ Virginia

2017
Villanova @ Temple
Holy Cross @ UConn
JMU @ East Carolina
Stony Brook @ USF
Albany @ ODU
Colgate @ Buffalo
Rhode Island @ Central Michigan
Elon @ Toledo
UNH @ Georgia Southern
W&M @ Virginia

2018
Holy Cross @ BC
Villanova @ Temple
JMU @ NC State
Lehigh @ Navy
Rhode Island @ UConn
Elon @ USF
Albany @ Pitt
Fordham @ Charlotte
W&M @ Virginia Tech
Richmond @ Virginia

2019
Richmond @ BC
Holy Cross @ Navy
Maine @ UMass
Holy Cross @ Syracuse
Wagner @ UConn
Delaware @ Pitt
Robert Morris @ Buffalo
Rhode Island @ Ohio

2020
Delaware @ NC State
Bucknell @ Army
Richmond @ Pitt
Fordham @ Hawaii

By far Fordham won with that game. Players get a weekend in Hawaii which is a trip many people will never make. Granted Hawaii isn't a powerhouse team but the opportunity is a great one. More than likely they'll leave Thursday night and return Sunday afternoon....

[Go Green]

By far Fordham won with that game. Players get a weekend in Hawaii which is a trip many people will never make. Granted Hawaii isn't a powerhouse team but the opportunity is a great one. More than likely they'll leave Thursday night and return Sunday afternoon....

Hope they do better than Yale did against Hawaii.

[Sader87]

Just curious, has there been any official (or unofficial) statement etc. from the Patriot League on how Army and Navy now seem to be playing fellow PL schools moreso now than they have lately? It just seems like they are both playing a lot more PL schools now than they have ovah the last decade or so.

[RichH2]

Just curious, has there been any official (or unofficial) statement etc. from the Patriot League on how Army and Navy now seem to be playing fellow PL schools moreso now than they have lately? It just seems like they are both playing a lot more PL schools now than they have ovah the last decade or so.

Official statement? No. It has been said that Army and Navy agreed to schedule conference mates to assist the PL.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Just curious, has there been any official (or unofficial) statement etc. from the Patriot League on how Army and Navy now seem to be playing fellow PL schools moreso now than they have lately? It just seems like they are both playing a lot more PL schools now than they have ovah the last decade or so.

I'm pretty sure there was something posted/published a year or so ago stating that both Army and Navy would be more proactive scheduling fellow PL schools in football.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I'm pretty sure there was something posted/published a year or so ago stating that both Army and Navy would be more proactive scheduling fellow PL schools in football.

They couldn't schedule us before because we didn't have the scholarships to count as a "Division I win" for bowl eligibility. Army only started playing Fordham in 2011 once they reached the threshold. From 2005-2010, the only PL v. FBS game was Syracuse v. Colgate in 2010 which was a second FCS game for the Orange because there were no FBS opponents available that wanted to play them. Since you could only count one FCS game towards a bowl back then, it didn't matter if they played a non-scholarship team.

[Franks Tanks]

They couldn't schedule us before because we didn't have the scholarships to count as a "Division I win" for bowl eligibility. Army only started playing Fordham in 2011 once they reached the threshold. From 2005-2010, the only PL v. FBS game was Syracuse v. Colgate in 2010 which was a second FCS game for the Orange because there were no FBS opponents available that wanted to play them. Since you could only count one FCS game towards a bowl back then, it didn't matter if they played a non-scholarship team.

Army does play two FCS schools in some years, so if one is a "counter" in that year they can schedule another who is not (since only one FCS win counts toward bowl eligibility). This year Army has Lafayette and Morgan State.

[Gater]

Army plays Lafayette and Colgate in 2018.

http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa-18/2018-army-black-knights-football-schedule.php

[DFW HOYA]

Army does play two FCS schools in some years, so if one is a "counter" in that year they can schedule another who is not (since only one FCS win counts toward bowl eligibility). This year Army has Lafayette and Morgan State.

Army has had one bowl eligible season since 1996. Adding a second I-AA team hasn't exactly hurt them in eligibility.

[Little Stevie]

Would like to HC and Rhody play home and home.
Be good attendance and short day trip for both.

[Sader87]

HC and Rhody played a lot in the 70s and 80s.....Holy Cross played a lot of (then) Yankee Conference schools back in that era...it was sort of a holdover from when HC briefly joined the Yankee Conference. Both BU and HC joined the Yankee Conference in the early 1970s but HC pulled out after a year or so.

[catamount man]

Holy Cross and Western Carolina need a home and home. I know a lot of old time CATS that still call the trip to HC in the 1983 playoffs one of the best experiences ever in Catamount football. GO CATS!!!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Both were D2/FCS when playing HC in the past, but both UMass (50 meetings) and UConn (28 meetings) have pretty strong ties in playing Holy Cross in football.

While not the quantity of games, both Lehigh and Colgate have significant history with UMass. I'd love to see Lehigh venture up to Amherst and get a win. The Minutemen would be on my short list of FBS opponents.

Lehigh hasn't crossed paths with UConn much. Even so, the Huskies would be a good FBS opponent too.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Holy Cross and Western Carolina need a home and home. I know a lot of old time CATS that still call the trip to HC in the 1983 playoffs one of the best experiences ever in Catamount football. GO CATS!!!

WCU vs. Holy Cross and Jacksonville State vs. Lehigh would be two intriguing FCS games that have historical ties....

[Sader87]

Uggghhh....Carter punting on a short 4th down on the WCU 35 or so with HC up 21-14....punt blocked for a TD.....remembah it well sadly....that game is on youtube I believe....watched it a few years ago

[DFW HOYA]

"You are who your schedule says you are."

So, good for modern day Holy Cross in striving to be more than Fr. Brooks' extramural ambitions for Ivy Lite. Tom Gilmore can walk into a recruit's home and when the recruit asks him "Who else will you play outside the Patriot League?", he can answer with confidence: "Syracuse, Boston College, Navy."

And you, Coach Hunt? "Syracuse and Buffalo, and more on the way."

Coach Breiner can top them all. "Not only will you be playing those kind of schools, you'll have a game in Hawaii as a junior,." he can say. Sign em up!

Meanwhile, here's what Rob Sgarlata has to work with. "Well, we open with Davidson. And our school signed a deal with Columbia..." And you wonder why fan interest is so weak for the Hoyas when it could be so much better?

Granted, Georgetown isn't getting a lot of calls from Syracuse or Hawaii, but CAA schools don't want to play, nor MEAC's. While the rest of the PL picks up guarantee money and a TV appearance or two, ambitious scheduling isn't a luxury for Georgetown.

[aceinthehole]

Meanwhile, here's what Rob Sgarlata has to work with. "Well, we open with Davidson. And our school signed a deal with Columbia..." And you wonder why fan interest is so weak for the Hoyas when it could be so much better?

Granted, Georgetown isn't getting a lot of calls from Syracuse or Hawaii, but CAA schools don't want to play, nor MEAC's. While the rest of the PL picks up guarantee money and a TV appearance or two, ambitious scheduling isn't a luxury for Georgetown.

DFW - why don't CAA schools want to play the Hoyas? I find it hard to fathom why a CAA team wouldn't offer Georgetown a game.

If St. Francis can get guarantee games at James Madison and at Towson, and Sacred Heart has played at Delaware, then why do you think Georgetown can't get those same deals with CAA teams?

You aren't expecting a home game - are you? xrotatehx

[DFW HOYA]

DFW - why don't CAA schools want to play the Hoyas? I find it hard to fathom why a CAA team wouldn't offer Georgetown a game. ..You aren't expecting a home game - are you? xrotatehx

No direct knowledge on the details and yes, I think a home and home is an issue, but the fact of the matter is that CAA schools don't see a need to schedule Georgetown if/when they can schedule better. A series with W&M never went anywhere, a series with Richmond was cancelled after the year UR played at Multi-Sport Field, and Old Dominion dropped a four year series with Georgetown after one season to play Norfolk State instead. I think the former Georgetown coach (Kevin Kelly) probably didn't object, as his teams were often getting clobbered in non-conf. games that didn't involve playing Davidson or Marist. (Remember, at one point he was 5-38, and he turned down a guarantee game at NDSU in 2010 for a one-off at Sacred Heart, which he lost, too.) So I think Georgetown has some blame in this as well, though I don't know what the current staff is doing differently in this regard, if any.

As for the MEAC, and Howard in particular, there are those in the MEAC who strongly advocate focusing on fellow HBCU's in non-conference play unless there are guarantees involved. Put another way, Howard will travel to Rutgers, but not to Georgetown.

[Go Green]

Howard will travel to Rutgers, but not to Georgetown.

Maybe if Georgetown had its own metro station.... :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Old Dominion dropped a four year series with Georgetown after one season to play Norfolk State instead.

While ODU was FCS, this made a lot of sense, because Norfolk State and ODU were 1) so close together geographically, and 2) could generate a lot of fan support in a short time. G'town was never going to deliver that level of fan support, even if they had just won the PL.

In terms of Richmond and W&M, the expansion of FBS games clobbered series with teams like G'Town. Those teams now are taking paydays at UVA and Tech rather than hosting G'Town (or many other teams) OOC. More FBS games trickle-down to fewer FCS OOC opportunities. They're not disappearing completely, but they're a lot more scarce.

A perfect G'Town schedule would be a home game vs. Davidson/Marist, a couple of home-and-home games vs. Ivies, one CAA away game (Towson, maybe), and a game at ODU. If ODU is unrealistic, a third Ivy or a NEC home-and-home. Difficult, and more difficult than it used to be, but achievable.

[aceinthehole]

While ODU was FCS, this made a lot of sense, because Norfolk State and ODU were 1) so close together geographically, and 2) could generate a lot of fan support in a short time. G'town was never going to deliver that level of fan support, even if they had just won the PL.

In terms of Richmond and W&M, the expansion of FBS games clobbered series with teams like G'Town. Those teams now are taking paydays at UVA and Tech rather than hosting G'Town (or many other teams) OOC. More FBS games trickle-down to fewer FCS OOC opportunities. They're not disappearing completely, but they're a lot more scarce.

A perfect G'Town schedule would be a home game vs. Davidson/Marist, a couple of home-and-home games vs. Ivies, one CAA away game (Towson, maybe), and a game at ODU. If ODU is unrealistic, a third Ivy or a NEC home-and-home. Difficult, and more difficult than it used to be, but achievable.

Georgetown should schedule home-and-home with Ivy and NEC teams each year; buy a Pioneer opponent; plus a "guarantee" away games vs CAA, MVFC, etc.

Year 1
vs. Robert Morris
at Yale
vs. Cornell
at Richmond ($)
vs. Marist (buy)

Year 2
at RMU
vs. Dartmouth
at Cornell
at James Madison ($)
vs. Butler (buy)

Year 3
vs. Bryant
at Dartmouth
vs. Columbia
vs. Davidson (buy)
at Stony Brook ($)

[PAllen]

DFW - why don't CAA schools want to play the Hoyas? I find it hard to fathom why a CAA team wouldn't offer Georgetown a game.

If St. Francis can get guarantee games at James Madison and at Towson, and Sacred Heart has played at Delaware, then why do you think Georgetown can't get those same deals with CAA teams?

You aren't expecting a home game - are you? xrotatehx

Because Georgetown wants return games on even terms, and well, MSF. I'm sure GU could easily get games at Richmond, JMU, or Nova if they didn't demand a return game, or a large payout.

[DFW HOYA]

Maybe if Georgetown had its own metro station.... :)

Or a gondola.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/32956/leaders-are-serious-about-a-georgetown-rosslyn-gondola/


http://assets.urbanturf.com/dc/images/blog/2013/12/gtown_gondola_02.jpg

[aceinthehole]

Because Georgetown wants return games on even terms, and well, MSF. I'm sure GU could easily get games at Richmond, JMU, or Nova if they didn't demand a return game, or a large payout.

I agree. It is impossible for Georgetown finding a HOME game outside of the Pioneer, NEC, and a few Ivy League teams.

However, finding regional ROAD games for a modest fee should not be an issue for the Hoyas. No other PL or NEC teams has a problem finding FCS guarantee games.

[LUHawker]

I'm late to this discussion, but I commend HC for infusing their future schedules with some "sizzle". They may have gotten out over their skis with 2 FBS games in one year, but that's hardly the worst thing. Excluding GTown, which was never going to get FBS opponents, the league has done a good job of slotting FBS tilts - except for Lehigh. Perhaps, LU has lined up dates that we don't yet know about, but as it stands now, it has done a very sub-par job.

[PAllen]

Or a gondola.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/32956/leaders-are-serious-about-a-georgetown-rosslyn-gondola/


http://assets.urbanturf.com/dc/images/blog/2013/12/gtown_gondola_02.jpg

Just no. They're holding up Portland's 3000 rider per day as a model of how useful it could be? The amortized cost of that thing would be at least $100K/day. Plus, you want WMATA running people a few hundred feet above the Potomac? That'll be a fun walk to the nearest station when they get stranded per WMATA SOP. Georgetown didn't want the planned metro stop on M street, so they didn't get one. This is just more funneling of tax dollars to key campaign contributors under the guise of making things better in an earth friendly way.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown didn't want the planned metro stop on M street, so they didn't get one.

Urban legend.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/423/georgetown-never-blocked-metro-stop/

[PAllen]

Urban legend.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/423/georgetown-never-blocked-metro-stop/

Nope the protests happened, as did the threat of a legal fight. That's why it wasn't included in the plans. Of course, your hipster blogger can continue to use Wikipedia citations of books as reference material if he would like to continue to look like a fool.

[Go Green]

Just no. They're holding up Portland's 3000 rider per day as a model of how useful it could be? The amortized cost of that thing would be at least $100K/day. Plus, you want WMATA running people a few hundred feet above the Potomac? That'll be a fun walk to the nearest station when they get stranded per WMATA SOP. Georgetown didn't want the planned metro stop on M street, so they didn't get one. This is just more funneling of tax dollars to key campaign contributors under the guise of making things better in an earth friendly way.

The Georgetown Metro thing was before I ever came to DC. But put me down in the camp that thinks that the Key Bridge Gondola is an awful idea.

[aceinthehole]

The Georgetown Metro thing was before I ever came to DC. But put me down in the camp that thinks that the Key Bridge Gondola is an awful idea.

Yep, just like the Silver Line and the Streetcar on H Street NE - total boondoggle, waste of resources. Very typical of DC and regional leaders.

The priority should have been on maintaining and updating the core of the original system. For example:

1) Build the Metro Center-Gallery Pl/Chinatown pedestrian tunnel to alleviate overcrowding at these stops and major transfer points;
2) Build the Farragut North-Farragut West pedestrian tunnel to eliminate the "virtual transfer" requiring an exit and walk on 17th St.;
3) Build added train capacity for the Rosslyn Tunnel BEFORE considering Silver Line expansion; and
4) Fix water leaks/electrical arcing in all tunnels (Safe Track) - this should have been going on for the last decade!

[LUHawker]

Yep, just like the Silver Line and the Streetcar on H Street NE - total boondoggle, waste of resources. Very typical of DC and regional leaders.

The priority should have been on maintaining and updating the core of the original system. For example:

1) Build the Metro Center-Gallery Pl/Chinatown pedestrian tunnel to alleviate overcrowding at these stops and major transfer points;
2) Build the Farragut North-Farragut West pedestrian tunnel to eliminate the "virtual transfer" requiring an exit and walk on 17th St.;
3) Build added train capacity for the Rosslyn Tunnel BEFORE considering Silver Line expansion; and
4) Fix water leaks/electrical arcing in all tunnels (Safe Track) - this should have been going on for the last decade!

Can we all get back to football and why Georgetown remains the backwater of the PL? xsmiley_wix

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Can we all get back to football and why Georgetown remains the backwater of the PL? xsmiley_wix

That's easy - because they'd rather spend the money on an unsafe gondola than scholarships. xlolx

[tribe_pride]

Yep, just like the Silver Line and the Streetcar on H Street NE - total boondoggle, waste of resources. Very typical of DC and regional leaders.

The priority should have been on maintaining and updating the core of the original system. For example:

1) Build the Metro Center-Gallery Pl/Chinatown pedestrian tunnel to alleviate overcrowding at these stops and major transfer points;
2) Build the Farragut North-Farragut West pedestrian tunnel to eliminate the "virtual transfer" requiring an exit and walk on 17th St.;
3) Build added train capacity for the Rosslyn Tunnel BEFORE considering Silver Line expansion; and
4) Fix water leaks/electrical arcing in all tunnels (Safe Track) - this should have been going on for the last decade!

2 - No reason to build a tunnel. The virtual transfer has people walking one block. That's fine and costs nothing to build or if you don't want to go outside, you go to Metro Center.
3 - Silver Line only screwed people over on the Blue Line south of Rosslyn. If you are in the Rosslyn/Ballston corridor, it's a blessing because it has reduced time between trains.

Finally, they let people enter and exit the same station without incurring a cost. Good job. Agreed Safe Track should have been going on all along. They finally got a GM with the guts to do something about it and make people suffer over the next year for the hopeful greater good.

[DFW HOYA]

Let me see if I can tie these loose threads together:

1. Georgetown never got a Metrorail stop because the strategy and infrastructure wasn't there. The most recent WMATA annual report clearly notes that "One of the primary reasons for creating the Metrorail system in the 1970s was to provide commuting options for federal employees and contractors," of which Georgetown had very few of in the 1960's. In fact, the M Street of the early 1960's was light-industrial by comparison, with auto dealers, pawn shops and hardware stores where today's Apple Stores and overpriced clothing boutiques now inhabit.

2. Significant network improvements are hamstrung by a funding structure where 85 percent of revenues come from non-ticket sources: namely, the state of MD, the commonwealth of VA, and the District. Building a tunnel at Farragut North sounds great, but when Virginia wanted a new line to Reston, Virginia got it because they have a bigger seat at the table.

3. Unlike NY or Chicago, where the infrastructure was in place decades ago, building out transit in areas that never had it takes a certain amount of government strong-arming that the Congress is not interested in right now. Remember that Metro was essentially a transfer cost in place of the proposed ribbon of interstate highways planned across DC, including one planned to be built adjacent to Georgetown University. Bipartisanship, a four letter word in today's climate, pushed through a mandate where none exists today.


And so...


1. Georgetown football never got a stadium because the strategy and infrastructure wasn't there. This year's debut of the John Thompson Center (basketball practice facility) is the first athletic department facility built at Georgetown in an astounding 65 years. Of the 29 teaams at GU, just 14 play on campus and only six in permanent facilities. When a large number of students were once "day-hops" (commuters), building on-campus facilities weren't that big of a deal. Today, just 3% of the student body is local.

2. Significant program improvements are hamstrung by a funding structure where 95% of revenues come from non-ticket sources; namely, subsidies. Where a sold out game against Lafayette can pump revenue into the Lehigh program, the Engineers have capacity at Murray Goodman Stadium that Georgetown's woebegone MSF does not. In an average season, Georgetown may not bring in more than $8000 in ticket sales per home game, which makes a guarantee offer for home games next to impossible. One wonders when the Ivy, who were sold the MSF idea more than a deacde ago, will simply not schedule games in DC as a result. Ask the Dartmouth fans who were turned away last year because they was only 800 seats in the entire visitor's section. Georgetown is thus severely depndent on university subsidy, a rather fixed amount given the state of the school's finances and its complete focus on need based financial aid.

3. Unlike Holy Cross or Bucknell, where the stadium infrastructure was in place decades ago, building out a new facility takes a certain amount of institutional strong-arming that Georgetown's administration is not interested in right now. Were it not for the contract negotiations for John Thompson III after the Final Four, there wouldn't even be a practice facility today. Football still has no game-day locker rooms...but then again, some sports get far less. With all the opportunity lost by not building an on-campus arena 20 or 30 or 40 years ago, now there's no parking, so what is to be gained, some ask, by investing in a scholarship team capable of drawing good crowds where no room exists to put them. The millions (and millions) Georgetown paid in rent to Abe Pollin and Ted Leonsis could have funded an arena and a stadium and had money left over. There was no bipartisanship within the university to push through an athletic facility mandate, instead, the med school, law school, and main campus fought up and down for their own turf and let athletics bear the brunt of their expansions.

But hey, how about that gondola...xlolx

[Go Green]

Ask the Dartmouth fans who were turned away last year because they was only 800 seats in the entire visitor's section.

It was a shame that there weren't more tickets for the Dartmouth people. I, myself, was forced to sit on the Georgetown side because the visitors' side was sold out by the time I ordered my seats.

But how often does this happen? Should my Columbia friends order their tickets now if they want to see the game from MSF?

[DFW HOYA]

But how often does this happen? Should my Columbia friends order their tickets now if they want to see the game from MSF?

If Columbia travels anywhere close to the other Ivies, yes, order ahead. It is the 77th Homecoming Game at Georgetown so seats will be at a premium in any regard.

[PAllen]

If Columbia travels anywhere close to the other Ivies, yes, order ahead. It is the 77th Homecoming Game at Georgetown so seats will be at a premium in any regard.

Or you can just bring lawn chairs and watch through the fence.

[kdinva]

Or you can just bring lawn chairs and watch through the fence.

or move the game to Howard's 8,000 seat venue....

[Ivytalk]

Glad to see the HC-Harvard series continuing into the future!xthumbsupx

[bison137]

They couldn't schedule us before because we didn't have the scholarships to count as a "Division I win" for bowl eligibility. Army only started playing Fordham in 2011 once they reached the threshold.


Bucknell wasn't anywhere near 57 equivalencies when they played at Army this past season.

[DFW HOYA]

or move the game to Howard's 11,000 seat venue....

Guess they lost some seats. This site says it's just 7,000.


http://image2.stadiumjourney.com/images/stadiums/1320_Howard_Marching_Band_at_William_H_Greene_Stad ium.jpg

http://www.stadiumjourney.com/stadiums/william-h.-greene-stadium-s1320/images

[Schism55]

Sure that pic isn't from a high school game?

[Go...gate]

This are the FBS opponents each PL school has legitimate ties with outside of Army and Navy...

Colgate - Syracuse, Rutgers, Duke, Buffalo
Lehigh - Rutgers
Lafayette - Rutgers
Holy Cross - Boston College
Bucknell - Temple
Fordham - ??
Georgetown - ??

FIFY.

[PAllen]

Sure that pic isn't from a high school game?

Thats of half of the crappy old stands, probably pregame. The newer stands are quite a bit bigger and have better sight lines (though still nothing to write home about). All that said, it's not a very big stadium (seating wise) but they do fill it quite regularly.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Bucknell wasn't anywhere near 57 equivalencies when they played at Army this past season.

Since Bucknell was Army's second FCS game, maybe it didn't matter since they could only count one FCS win towards a bowl anyway?

[bison137]

This are the FBS opponents each PL school has legitimate ties with outside of Army and Navy...

Colgate - Syracuse and Rutgers
Lehigh - Rutgers
Lafayette - Rutgers
Holy Cross - Boston College
Bucknell - Temple
Fordham - ??
Georgetown - ??



Although LC and LU played more games with Rutgers than Bucknell, Bucknell was still playing Rutgers after RU stopped playing the other two. As for "legitimate ties", Bucknell has a head coach who coached at Rutgers for a decade and also has several assistant with ties to Rutgers. Also, of course, the coach who turned around the Rutgers program, Greg Schiano, is a Bucknell grad.

Bucknell actually had an agreement in place to play Rutgers but the Big Ten's position about their schools playing FCS programs has likely killed that. Also Susan doesn't have the close ties with Chris Ash that he had with Kyle Flood.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've actually seen a game at Howard's stadium - homecoming, in fact. It's in the heart of their campus and when I saw homecoming it was packed to the gills. Took my son, too. We had a good time.

[bison137]

Bucknell announced today that their 2019 opener will be at Temple.

http://www.bucknellbison.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=32100&ATCLID=211091189

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Bucknell announced today that their 2019 opener will be at Temple.

http://www.bucknellbison.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=32100&ATCLID=211091189

Shouldn't be competitive but at least there's historical ties...

[CHIP72]

While ODU was FCS, this made a lot of sense, because Norfolk State and ODU were 1) so close together geographically, and 2) could generate a lot of fan support in a short time. G'town was never going to deliver that level of fan support, even if they had just won the PL.

In terms of Richmond and W&M, the expansion of FBS games clobbered series with teams like G'Town. Those teams now are taking paydays at UVA and Tech rather than hosting G'Town (or many other teams) OOC. More FBS games trickle-down to fewer FCS OOC opportunities. They're not disappearing completely, but they're a lot more scarce.

A perfect G'Town schedule would be a home game vs. Davidson/Marist, a couple of home-and-home games vs. Ivies, one CAA away game (Towson, maybe), and a game at ODU. If ODU is unrealistic, a third Ivy or a NEC home-and-home. Difficult, and more difficult than it used to be, but achievable.

IMO, an ideal Georgetown schedule includes Howard on it, and vice-versa.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CHIP72]

Or a gondola.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/32956/leaders-are-serious-about-a-georgetown-rosslyn-gondola/


http://assets.urbanturf.com/dc/images/blog/2013/12/gtown_gondola_02.jpg

What's really scary is that gondola makes more sense than that stupid streetcar line on H Street NE, but I digress...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CHIP72]

It was a shame that there weren't more tickets for the Dartmouth people. I, myself, was forced to sit on the Georgetown side because the visitors' side was sold out by the time I ordered my seats.

But how often does this happen? Should my Columbia friends order their tickets now if they want to see the game from MSF?

I've attended three games at MSF (now named Cooper Field BTW), two Lehigh games (2010 and 2012) and one Lafayette game (2013). For both Lehigh games, I sat on the Georgetown side due partly to the limited number of seats on the visitors' side, partly because the home side seats have backs. Lehigh probably had more fans than Georgetown did at those games, especially for the 2010 game. With the Lafayette game, I sat on the visitors side because there was some room there and total crowd wasn't as big, but Lafayette fans probably still accounted for 40% of the total crowd.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gangtackle11]

Bucknell announced today that their 2019 opener will be at Temple.

http://www.bucknellbison.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=32100&ATCLID=211091189

I heard that Bucknell & Villanova will also play a home & home in 2018/19. Nothing confirmed in writing as of yet.

[Sader87]

Great to hear all the future FBS games the PL schools are scheduling....it can only help the league in a host of ways (recruiting, visibility, level of play etc) imo.

[DFW HOYA]

Because Georgetown wants return games on even terms, and well, MSF. I'm sure GU could easily get games at Richmond, JMU, or Nova if they didn't demand a return game, or a large payout.


If Georgetown didn't ask for return games, it would get exactly three home games a season, all in the PL. Such are not the optics for an aspiring program with no local support and declining student interest with one winning season since 1999, much of it self-inflicted.

The idea that "GU could easily get games at Richmond, JMU, or Nova if they didn't demand a return game" is not grounded in reality. Yes, JMU is scheduling a mop-up game with Morehead State and Villanova has two games with Lehigh and Lafayette this season, but scheduling Georgetown doesn't do much if anything for these schools' strength of schedule.

The vicious circle is apparent--as I-A games become standard at six PL schools, the absence of name opponents makes Georgetown even more of an outlier to recruits, but any serious upgrade of the schedule reduces its chances at winning season from improbable to impossible. The only tenable means of reversing this fortune is one of two approaches: changing its policy on scholarships (which doesn't have the budget nor the administrative support, but is allowed by the league) or changing its approach on admissions (which would be budgetarily neutral, but is actively opposed by the league).

[dgtw]

Bucknell wasn't anywhere near 57 equivalencies when they played at Army this past season.

Like it matters for Army's bowl status.


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[PAllen]

If Georgetown didn't ask for return games, it would get exactly three home games a season, all in the PL. Such are not the optics for an aspiring program with no local support and declining student interest with one winning season since 1999, much of it self-inflicted.

The idea that "GU could easily get games at Richmond, JMU, or Nova if they didn't demand a return game" is not grounded in reality. Yes, JMU is scheduling a mop-up game with Morehead State and Villanova has two games with Lehigh and Lafayette this season, but scheduling Georgetown doesn't do much if anything for these schools' strength of schedule.

The vicious circle is apparent--as I-A games become standard at six PL schools, the absence of name opponents makes Georgetown even more of an outlier to recruits, but any serious upgrade of the schedule reduces its chances at winning season from improbable to impossible. The only tenable means of reversing this fortune is one of two approaches: changing its policy on scholarships (which doesn't have the budget nor the administrative support, but is allowed by the league) or changing its approach on admissions (which would be budgetarily neutral, but is actively opposed by the league).

Or GU could grow up and realize that being a Football member of the Patriot League is a lot different than being a member of the Pioneer Football Leahue

[DFW HOYA]

Or GU could grow up and realize that being a Football member of the Patriot League is a lot different than being a member of the Pioneer Football League

Except that Georgetown has never sought, nor fit in, to the wayward PFL, a group of schools it has even less in common than the Patriot. But after 15 years in the PL , it's remained a scheduling partner rather than a competitive one. In some ways, it's become what Army was in Conference USA, a non-competitive draw with little or no athletic connections to the member schools.

[NY Crusader 2010]

In some ways, it's become what Army was in Conference USA, a non-competitive draw with little or no athletic connections to the member schools.

Growing up in the Hudson Valley, I grew up following the Black Knights and attended 2-3 home games annually. Unfortunately I missed the Holy Cross game in 2002. But, was the CUSA era the dark ages for Army football. It seemed like 1-11 was the standard and Tulane was the only team they could occasionally beat in that league. Thankfully, we're not quite there with Georgetown yet. Hopefully the administration changes it's tune very soon.

What exactly is the issue with admissions compared to the rest of the PL?

[PAllen]

Except that Georgetown has never sought, nor fit in, to the wayward PFL, a group of schools it has even less in common than the Patriot. But after 15 years in the PL , it's remained a scheduling partner rather than a competitive one. In some ways, it's become what Army was in Conference USA, a non-competitive draw with little or no athletic connections to the member schools.

Yeah, it's tough to find peers when your academics are superior to the Ivy League, your basketball superior to the ACC, your lacrosse on par with the Big10, and your football is supported at a high school level.

[Anthony215]

Georgetown would probably be best served off by joining the Pioneer League for football if permitted. The other PL schools all are competitive at least 2xs within a recruiting class cycle unlike the Hoyas who play in front of sparse crowds in a stadium that is an eye sore besides the playing surface. My brothers were being recruited by CAA/PL schools back in the mid 2000s, went to a Georgetown v Towson PL game back in 2003 and was far more impressed with the basketball facilities the coaches showed off than the football facilities. They both ended up committing to a D2 school and surprisingly their D2 school had better football facilities than Georgetown. Invest in the program or drop it to D3....

[Go Green]

Invest in the program or drop it to D3

The second option is not possible because of the Dayton rule.

[UAalum72]

Wouldn't Georgetown in the Pioneer just be a rerun of playing in the MAAC 1993-99 but with more travel? Hoyas ended that experiment, but at least they were competitive.

[Model Citizen]

The second option is not possible because of the Dayton rule.

I think the poster is equating the PFL to D-III. The league used D-III financial aid rules until 2015, when the PFL apparently made some minor changes relating to outside grants. No, I'm not talking about the dozen or so equivalencies that JU is getting away with offering this year.

It is not reasonable to expect Georgetown football to drop athletic aid (yes, they have some) in order to join the PFL. The PFL needs to come up to Georgetown's level of athletic aid. This would be especially important to Georgetown, because it does not give the kind of academic merit aid (e.g. Presidential Scholarships) common at most PFL schools.

I wonder what Georgetown really needs to have in common with conference members. Member of the Big East? Got that with Butler. Someone they play frequently? That would be Marist and Davidson. Catholic schools? The Pioneer has two, and Georgetown has played them both.

The notion of Georgetown to the Pioneer might be more palatable if Morehead State returns to the OVC. I think that's going to happen.

Also, at least one Ivy League athletic director (http://www.nhregister.com/article/NH/20151205/SPORTS/151209712) wants a bowl game...where as a either a nonscholarsip or need-based scholarship league, the PFL would be the Ivy's natural partner. That could happen.

Main thing is that the Pioneer's financial aid has to evolve. Might be time for a name change as well, considering "Pioneer (http://www.pioneer-football.org/pfl/default/)" is a reference to the idea of a D-I nonscholarship classification --which never happened.

[Sader87]

GTown either stays in the PL or drops football imo.....staying in the PL they can get Ivy games, have a decent schedule in place etc etc The drawback to this of course, is that without decent funding, they are almost destined to be cellah dwellahs year after year.

[Model Citizen]

Georgetown wouldn't be able to get Ivy games in the PFL...why? For crying out loud, Jacksonville got an Ivy League game a couple years ago. Marist, Davidson, San Diego are all on future Ivy schedules.

I thought that when the the Patriot went to 60 scholarships, the Ivy wanted less of them, not more. Was I wrong?

[RichH2]

Georgetown wouldn't be able to get Ivy games in the PFL...why? For crying out loud, Jacksonville got an Ivy League game a couple years ago. Marist, Davidson, San Diego are all on future Ivy schedules.

I thought that when the the Patriot went to 60 scholarships, the Ivy wanted less of them, not more. Was I wrong?
True enough. That is the Harvard mantra. Penn and Princeton continue to play PL squads.

[Sader87]

I think the "Ivy snit-fit" ovah the PL going scholarship in football is largely ovah. Pretty sure there are a fair amount of cross-ovah games between the Ancient VIII and the PL on the future schedules for most PL schools. (I do know HC has an advantage here ovah other PL schools due to geography/history with the NE Ivies).

Back to the Hoyas plight, I just don't see the PFL as an option. Sure they might be more competitive in the Pioneer....but at what cost really?

[Model Citizen]

Sure they might be more competitive in the Pioneer....but at what cost really?

If they won the Pioneer, they would probably have to hit the road for the playoffs. xrotatehx Can't see the Hoyas spending a dime to get a home field.

[PAllen]

I think the poster is equating the PFL to D-III. The league used D-III financial aid rules until 2015, when the PFL apparently made some minor changes relating to outside grants. No, I'm not talking about the dozen or so equivalencies that JU is getting away with offering this year.

It is not reasonable to expect Georgetown football to drop athletic aid (yes, they have some) in order to join the PFL. The PFL needs to come up to Georgetown's level of athletic aid. This would be especially important to Georgetown, because it does not give the kind of academic merit aid (e.g. Presidential Scholarships) common at most PFL schools.

I wonder what Georgetown really needs to have in common with conference members. Member of the Big East? Got that with Butler. Someone they play frequently? That would be Marist and Davidson. Catholic schools? The Pioneer has two, and Georgetown has played them both.

The notion of Georgetown to the Pioneer might be more palatable if Morehead State returns to the OVC. I think that's going to happen.

Also, at least one Ivy League athletic director (http://www.nhregister.com/article/NH/20151205/SPORTS/151209712) wants a bowl game...where as a either a nonscholarsip or need-based scholarship league, the PFL would be the Ivy's natural partner. That could happen.

Main thing is that the Pioneer's financial aid has to evolve. Might be time for a name change as well, considering "Pioneer (http://www.pioneer-football.org/pfl/default/)" is a reference to the idea of a D-I nonscholarship classification --which never happened.

This is GU's problem. They have no interest in being a full member in any conference (even the Ivy would be too much of a step down in BBall), and as an associate member, they want whatever conference they play in comes to whatever level GU's administration decides to support. The world doesn't work that way.

[DFW HOYA]

This is GU's problem. They have no interest in being a full member in any conference...

Huh?

Last I checked, Georgetown was a full member of the Big East Conference, and has been since 1979.

[Model Citizen]

PAllen seems to think my PFL post was about the Patriot.

[PAllen]

Huh?

Last I checked, Georgetown was a full member of the Big East Conference, and has been since 1979.

I must have missed all those GU/Boston College and GU/Syracuse matchups on the gridiron in the 80s and 90s.

[PAllen]

PAllen seems to think my PFL post was about the Patriot.

Not at all. Your comment was that in order for GU to be successful in the PFL, the PFL would need to bring their aid/academic model into line (offer more) with what GU wants to do. All we hear from the GU side of things about being successful in the PL, the PL needs to bring their aid/academic model into line with what GU wants to do. In either case, you have an associate member that has zero interest in any association with the league as it pertains to the associate member's marque sport (or really any other sport) wanting to dictate how the remaining members of the conference do things. Believing that is a rational position is exactly GU's problem.

[Model Citizen]

The Pioneer Football League doesn't have associate members, since its only sport is football.

There won't be any dictating. The league will determine its rules without regard to Georgetown.

[DFW HOYA]

In either case, you have an associate member that has zero interest in any association with the league as it pertains to the associate member's marque sport (or really any other sport) wanting to dictate how the remaining members of the conference do things. Believing that is a rational position is exactly GU's problem.

Where has Georgetown University dictated policy to the Patriot League? The last school that drove policy decisions was Fordham.

[bison137]

Not at all. Your comment was that in order for GU to be successful in the PFL, the PFL would need to bring their aid/academic model into line (offer more) with what GU wants to do. All we hear from the GU side of things about being successful in the PL, the PL needs to bring their aid/academic model into line with what GU wants to do. In either case, you have an associate member that has zero interest in any association with the league as it pertains to the associate member's marque sport (or really any other sport) wanting to dictate how the remaining members of the conference do things. Believing that is a rational position is exactly GU's problem.



I think you're hearing this from one poster on a message board, not from anyone associated with Georgetown.

[PAllen]

Where has Georgetown University dictated policy to the Patriot League? The last school that drove policy decisions was Fordham.

"wanting to dictate"

The point is that if GU sticks to its unbending position that requires everyone else to change to the GU model in order for the Hoyas to be successful, then they're simply setting themselves up for continued failure. Especially when all that the Hoyas offer in return is one FB game a year.