Success and consistency of FCS Schools in three major sports.

[Rabbit74]

I had a little free time the other day so I checked to see the number of times each of the FCS teams have made it to the NCAA Championship tournaments in Football and Men's and Women's Basketball over the last 8 years, the number of years that SDSU has been eligible. That would be a possible 24 tournaments if each of the three teams make it each year. Of the 125 FCS teams, South Dakota State U has appeared in more NCAA championship tournaments than any other team at 15, 7 for women's basketball, 5 for football and 3 for men's basketball. Next in line are Villanova at 13, Montana at 12, Northern Iowa 11 and James Madison 10. There are several at 9 including NDSU. (You may want to double check for your school in case i mis-counted. Let me know and I will be glad to correct ) This is just one indication of consistent strength of a school athletic program across the three major sports. I did not include schools like CC that are transitioning out or have recently done so.

If my data is correct, there are 23 who have not made it to any.

[KPSUL]

I believe a two subdivision system is unique to football in the NCAA. It also looks like cherry picking in terms of the number of years (why 8?) and including only men's and women's Basketball with FCS football teams. Why not men's and women's Hockey, Baseball, Lacrosse, Soccer, etc.? The NCAA measures the overall strength of Division one athletic program and includes all varsity sports. Many schools that limit resources dedicated to football by competing at the FCS level, could choose two additional sports they resource at a much higher level and come out on top in a like comparison. But congratulations on your schools truly remarkable accomplishment based on such clearly defined and unquestionably objective criteria!

[Catatonic]

I believe a two subdivision system is unique to football in the NCAA, I see little point in this "analysis". It also looks like cherry picking in terms of the number of years (why 8?) and including only men's and women's Basketball with FCS football teams. (Why not men's and women's Hockey, Baseball, Lacrosse, Soccer, etc.) But congratulations on your schools truly remarkable accomplishment based on such clearly defined and unquestionably objective criteria!

Appropriate response given your avatar. #catty

[BisonFan02]

I believe a two subdivision system is unique to football in the NCAA, I see little point in this "analysis". It also looks like cherry picking in terms of the number of years (why 8?) and including only men's and women's Basketball with FCS football teams. (Why not men's and women's Hockey, Baseball, Lacrosse, Soccer, etc.) But congratulations on your schools truly remarkable accomplishment based on such clearly defined and unquestionably objective criteria!

Its called cherry picking sports to make SDSU fans feel better. UNI did the same thing with some type of stat a few days ago as well.

[Catatonic]

I believe FB, MBB and Baseball are generally recognized as the big 3 college sports. Women's sports in general don't generate the same level of fan interest, with notable exceptions in certain sports at certain schools.

[POD Knows]

I believe FB, MBB and Baseball are generally recognized as the big 3 college sports. Women's sports in general don't generate the same level of fan interest, with notable exceptions in certain sports at certain schools.

THIS, we need a recount with the new measurement metrics

[mvemjsunpx]

I believe FB, MBB and Baseball are generally recognized as the big 3 college sports. Women's sports in general don't generate the same level of fan interest, with notable exceptions in certain sports at certain schools.

Um… no. WBB is definitely bigger than college baseball.

[Catbooster]

Obviously, the rodeo team must be included. xcoffeex

[KPSUL]

I believe FB, MBB and Baseball are generally recognized as the big 3 college sports. Women's sports in general don't generate the same level of fan interest, with notable exceptions in certain sports at certain schools.

Depends on what region of the country you live. Did you ever try to play Baseball in Montana, Minnesota or New Hampshire in March? Maine used to field very competitive Baseball teams but the team spent a month in Florida at the start of the season. Hockey is huge in New England, Upstate New York and the upper Midwest, Lacrosse in the Mid-Atlantic, Wrestling in the Midwest. Additionally, there are many sports that are big at particular schools independent of where they are located.

I was editing my post as soon as I finished it because I agree, it was a bit catty and it didn't fully express my point as well as it now does. Now I believe it is sharply honed satire! FCS football is unique and I see no value in subjectively picking a couple other sports (as well as a contrived number of years) and making an across the board comparison throughout the subdivision.

[Rabbit74]

I picked FCS football board because this is an FCS board and there is no way to select FBS teams unless you just take 4 or you take everyone who makes a bowl game and that is a different level of competition. I selected Men's and Women's basketball because I believe those are the only sports that every school has (except for a couple all men's school). That way it compares apples to apples. Certainly an appearance does not equal a national championship, but the listing does not claim to be a definitive rating. As I indicated in the first post, I chose 8 years because that is how long SDSU and for that matter NDSU has been eligible. Had i used a shorter period of time, SDSU would have looked even better (9 appearances in the 12 opportunities in the last four years).

[BisonFan02]

NDSU has won the last 5 national championships in FCS football. SDSU has less than 5 total postseason victories in their program's history. I chose that stat because it makes my argument on a FCS discussion board and makes me giggle. :D

[Professor Chaos]

There's really two major sports. WBB, baseball, softball, hockey, wrestling, lacrosse, etc are all, while maybe equal with the big two in some select areas, are secondary from a national perspective.

[UNIFanSince1983]

There's really two major sports. WBB, baseball, softball, hockey, wrestling, lacrosse, etc are all, while maybe equal with the big two in some select areas, are secondary from a national perspective.

I would agree, but considering the SDSU women's team has 7 of the 15 appearances he was counting he had to add that one in there ;)

[Sader87]

It's been awhile, but HC is one of a handful of schools to have won the NCAA and NIT in hoop, won the College World Series and have been to a major bowl in football.... xdrunkyx

[POD Knows]

It's been awhile, but HC is one of a handful of schools to have won the NCAA and NIT in hoop, won the College World Series and have been to a major bowl in football.... xdrunkyx

Didn't Rudy go to school there, wait, wrong Holy Cross, sorry.

[DFW HOYA]

It's been awhile, but HC is one of a handful of schools to have won the NCAA and NIT in hoop, won the College World Series and have been to a major bowl in football.... xdrunkyx

15 schools have won both the NCAA and NIT. Of these, 11 also went to a major bowl.

Of these 11, five have also won the CWS: California, Michigan, UCLA, Ohio State, and Holy Cross.

Of these five, only one turned down a chance to join the Big East.

[BisonFan02]

15 schools have won both the NCAA and NIT. Of these, 11 also went to a major bowl.

Of these 11, five have also won the CWS: California, Michigan, UCLA, Ohio State, and Holy Cross.

Of these five, only one turned down a chance to join the Big East.

xlolx

[Catatonic]

There's really two major sports. WBB, baseball, softball, hockey, wrestling, lacrosse, etc are all, while maybe equal with the big two in some select areas, are secondary from a national perspective.

I agree. I used to hang in Athens, GA where women's gymnastics was very popular and often pulled more fans than Men's BB. I've been gone 10 years, so that may have changed now that their successful coach has retired and the team is no longer a contender for the national championship on a yearly basis.

[KPSUL]

The Capital One Cup is an annual award for overall athletic program excellence. There are separate awards for men's and women's programs. The top ten men's programs from schools with FCS football for 2014-15 and 2015-16:

2014 - 2015

1. NDSU
2. ISUr
3. UNH
4. EWU
5. Villanova
6. CCU (tie)
6. Georgetown (tie)
8. SHSU
9. Albany
10. Columbia (tie)
10. North Dakota (tie)

2015- 2016 (as of May 18)

1. NDSU (tie)
1. Villanova (tie)
3. JSU
4. Richmond
5. SHSU
6. North Dakota
7. ISUr
8. UNI
9. Columbia (tie)
9. Georgetown (tie)


SDSU is not in the overall top 100 and therefore not in the final standings; although, maybe Capital One has manipulated the scoring against them since the Citibank HQs are located in SD.

[Go Green]

The Capital One Cup is an annual award for overall athletic program excellence. There are separate awards for men's and women's programs. The top ten men's programs from schools with FCS football for 2014-15 and 2015-16:
.

Can anyone provide the nickel version on how these things are calculated? Do they treat football and archery the same? Do they only count championships, and it doesn't matter whether your team took second or last in the standings?

[JSUSoutherner]

The Capital One Cup is an annual award for overall athletic program excellence. There are separate awards for men's and women's programs. The top ten men's programs from schools with FCS football for 2014-15 and 2015-16:

2014 - 2015

1. NDSU
2. ISUr
3. UNH
4. EWU
5. Villanova
6. CCU (tie)
6. Georgetown (tie)
8. SHSU
9. Albany
10. Columbia (tie)
10. North Dakota (tie)

2015- 2016 (as of May 18)

1. NDSU (tie)
1. Villanova (tie)
3. JSU
4. Richmond
5. SHSU
6. North Dakota
7. ISUr
8. UNI
9. Columbia (tie)
9. Georgetown (tie)


SDSU is not in the overall top 100 and therefore not in the final standings; although, maybe Capital One has manipulated the scoring against them since the Citibank HQs are located in SD.
If only our basketball program wasn't total garbage. Hopefully our new coach can turn things around.

[SU DOG]

The strength of the sports in different conferences can skew these standings also. For example Samford went head-to-head with JSU in the following sports: Men's Basketball - Samford won, Women's Basketball - Samford won, Men's Tennis - Samford won, Baseball - Samford won(2-0), Softball - Samford won(2-1). And yes, football isn't, but should also be included, and JSU would have won there. This is NOT to belittle a VERY good JSU athletic program, but to point out that these standings just don't always show true athletic program comparisons. Your winner in one conference making the NCAA Playoffs wouldn't necessarily have been there in a difference conference.

[Hammersmith]

Can anyone provide the nickel version on how these things are calculated? Do they treat football and archery the same? Do they only count championships, and it doesn't matter whether your team took second or last in the standings?

Sports are grouped into two categories: A & B

Men's B Sports: Soccer, Football (FBS & FCS), Basketball, Lacrosse & Baseball
Women's B Sports: Soccer, Volleyball, Basketball, Lacrosse & Softball

Every other sport is an A Sport.

Points:
1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th/8th/9th/10th
A: 20/12/10/8/6/5/4/3/2/1
B: 60/36/30/24/18/15/12/9/6/3

Sports that end with a tournament format use the final major poll for their sport(Coaches' poll in the case of FCS). Sports that use a points format like T&F, S&D or golf, use the final championship ranking order.

100% of NDSU's points came from finishing #1 in the final Coaches' Poll.

http://www.capitalonecup.com/docs/Capital-One-Cup-Scoring-Structure.pdf


A better choice to use might be the Learfield Directors Cup. It seems to be a little more comprehensive as well as only allowing a school to use a certain number of sports. I forget the details, but it's something like using the seven best team scores per gender. That keeps schools like Stanford from automatically winning the cup just because of the sheer number of sports they offer.

http://thedirectorscup.com/

[Hammersmith]

This year's final Learfield Directors Cup won't be out until after the CWS is over, but here was last year's FCS top-ten:

1. Princeton (41st overall)
2. Harvard (53)
3. Georgetown (59)
4. Columbia (67)
5. Villanova (68)
6. North Dakota State (69)
7. Dartmouth (76)
8. New Hampshire (78)
9. Penn (80)
10. Illinois State (82)

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/DIJune25.pdf

[CrazyCat]

SUU and UND lead the Big Sky in the Learfield cup, but are 7th and 11th in Big Sky athletic points.

[KPSUL]

SUU and UND lead the Big Sky in the Learfield cup, but are 7th and 11th in Big Sky athletic points.

UND likely has it's highest point total from hockey, which the Big Sky doesn't sponsor. Not sure what would explain the SUU difference.

[CrazyCat]

UND likely has it's highest point total from hockey, which the Big Sky doesn't sponsor. Not sure what would explain the SUU difference.

Looks like fencing and gymnastics for SUU. Our ski team finished 4th nationally. That looks decent in the national cups, but in reality, we had a horrible year finishing 6th in overall BSC points and losing 12-5 in points vs. the Griz.

[Twentysix]

This thread demonstrates the serious case of "offseason" currently afflicting the board's membership.

[Hammersmith]

UND likely has it's highest point total from hockey, which the Big Sky doesn't sponsor. Not sure what would explain the SUU difference.

SUU: Women's Gymnastics(31st place), Men's Cross Country(21st), and Football(17th).
UND: Men's Hockey(1st)

[Hammersmith]

Full MVFC breakdown for Fall+Winter Director's Cup


Rank School Pts Sports Placement

73 UNI 193.5 FB(5th), MBB(17th), WR(25th), VB(33rd)
78 NDSU 177 FB(1st), WIT&F(25th), WR(44th)
82 SDSU 159.5 FB(17th), WBB(17th), MBB(33rd), WSoc(33rd), WR(39th)
145 SIU 76 MIT&F(23rd), VB(33rd)
152 ISUr 70 FB(5th)
170 WIU 53 FB(9th)
177 MSU 50 WBB(33rd), VB(33rd)
247 USD 22 WIT&F(51st)
256 ISUb 0
256 YSU 0

[Silenoz]

Obviously, the rodeo team must be included. xcoffeex

What about hackey-sack? I bet we own the **** out of that

[Bisonoline]

What about hackey-sack? I bet we own the **** out of that

What you dont have hockey?xlolx

[Go Green]

This year's final Learfield Directors Cup won't be out until after the CWS is over, but here was last year's FCS top-ten:

1. Princeton (41st overall)


Princeton usually leads the Ivy in overall league championships won. But they looked silly crowing about it earlier this decade when their football team was godawful.

:)

[Hanca]

Embarassingly, Richmond has an excellent Quidditch team. Probably why so few students attend football games.

[Daytripper]

Um… no. WBB is definitely bigger than college baseball.

Not here.

[clenz]

Not here.
Nationwide it's not even close.

[clenz]

Its called cherry picking sports to make SDSU fans feel better. UNI did the same thing with some type of stat a few days ago as well.
UNI - that was a senior associate athletic director...hell, second in line in reality - did it for MVC schools, MVFC schools and in state insitutions to show where UNI stacked against "peer" institutions in each case.

Sports were chosen based on sports that pretty much every single schools has and are considered "the back bone" of NCAA sports.

I see the xDSU fans took it a whole lot more personal than it was supposed to be though

[clenz]

I believe a two subdivision system is unique to football in the NCAA. It also looks like cherry picking in terms of the number of years (why 8?) and including only men's and women's Basketball with FCS football teams. Why not men's and women's Hockey, Baseball, Lacrosse, Soccer, etc.? The NCAA measures the overall strength of Division one athletic program and includes all varsity sports. Many schools that limit resources dedicated to football by competing at the FCS level, could choose two additional sports they resource at a much higher level and come out on top in a like comparison. But congratulations on your schools truly remarkable accomplishment based on such clearly defined and unquestionably objective criteria!
It's dumb, when comparing peer institutions, to include fringe sports.

There are 349 D1 teams
197 play mens soccer (59%)
310 play womens soccer (93%)
69 play lacrosse (19%) - only 3 outside of the eastern time zone
110 play womens lacrosse (31%) -only 12 of those programs are outside the eastern time zone and 10 of them are on the west coast
60 play mens hockey (17%)
35 play womens hockey (10%)


When trying to compare against conference mates it's the "best" and easiest way to do it.

[Bisonator]

Well since our womens BB team sucks I say we use softball instead. Please rerun the numbers. xlolx

[mvemjsunpx]

Not here.

Probably not, but college basketball in general seems to be least popular in that part of the country. The average attendance for Southland men's teams is only slightly higher than for Big Sky women's teams, for example.

[Catatonic]

Nationwide it's not even close.

Using what criteria? Number of schools offering each sport? Attendance?

[Rabbit74]

Well since our womens BB team sucks I say we use softball instead. Please rerun the numbers. xlolx



xnodx Just for my Bison friends, when the Commissioner's Cup for the Summit League comes out in a few days it will indicate SDSU won the the cup in a run-a-away winning by 98.5 to 79.5 over NDSU. Throw in NDSU's football win and SDSU's Wrestling win, which are not in the summit, and the margin stays about the same. Will be 4th straight Commissioner's Cup for the Jacks I believe.

[Twentysix]

xnodx Just for my Bison friends, when the Commissioner's Cup for the Summit League comes out in a few days it will indicate SDSU won the the cup in a run-a-away winning by 98.5 to 79.5 over NDSU. Throw in NDSU's football win and SDSU's Wrestling win, which are not in the summit, and the margin stays about the same. Will be 4th straight Commissioner's Cup for the Jacks I believe.

You can win them all, forever. We will continue to win National Championships. xcoffeex

[clenz]

You can win them all, forever. We will continue to win National Championships. xcoffeex
And that's why NDSU wasn't an option for the MVC a few years back, even if it would have turned out to be a good fit.

DGAF about the rest of the athletic department as long as football wins.

[BisonTru]

And that's why NDSU wasn't an option for the MVC a few years back, even if it would have turned out to be a good fit.

DGAF about the rest of the athletic department as long as football wins.

xrolleyesx Yes, because the rest of our sports are a dumpster fire. xrolleyesx

And the only time anybody gives a chit about women's basketball is when they're trying to argue something like the commissioners cup.

[BisonFan02]

And that's why NDSU wasn't an option for the MVC a few years back, even if it would have turned out to be a good fit.

DGAF about the rest of the athletic department as long as football wins.

That's entirely false, but keep telling yourself that.

[Bisonator]

And that's why NDSU wasn't an option for the MVC a few years back, even if it would have turned out to be a good fit.

DGAF about the rest of the athletic department as long as football wins.
Lol yeah because the MVC schools are so good in every sport. xlolx

[Thumper 76]

xrolleyesx Yes, because the rest of our sports are a dumpster fire. xrolleyesx

And the only time anybody doesn't give a chit about women's basketball is when their program is dog****.

FIFY


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[clenz]

FIFY


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Winner

[BisonTru]

FIFY


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Winner

Cute.

I can't wait for the spirited women's basketball thread to come. Yaaaay!!xreadxxawesomexxcoolx

[POD Knows]

And that's why NDSU wasn't an option for the MVC a few years back, even if it would have turned out to be a good fit.

DGAF about the rest of the athletic department as long as football wins.

Pretty weak statement. Except for WBB we do OK I guess

[Thumper 76]

Cute.

I can't wait for the spirited women's basketball thread to come. Yaaaay!!xreadxxawesomexxcoolx

Actually I posted in the wbb thread a couple times. But if you're taking that tact the men's basketball thread wasn't that spirited either, so I guess it doesn't matter either eh?


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[Hammersmith]

And that's why NDSU wasn't an option for the MVC a few years back, even if it would have turned out to be a good fit.

DGAF about the rest of the athletic department as long as football wins.

I don't get that comment. Excluding WBB and MG, NDSU has been competitive or dominant in every conference sport. And it's not for a lack of funding in WBB. It's been bad coaching decisions(hiring/firing, not game decisions). I believe every NDSU head coach is in the top three in conference salaries(top two for most).

Softball makes the NCAA almost every year and has made it to the super-regionals, volleyball absolutely ruled the Summit for several years and seems to be heading back that way after some coaching drama, women's golf can point to a current LPGA golfer and NCAA medalist, track and field has over two dozen All-Americans just since we moved to Division I(mostly women, but several men as well), we have a couple wrestling All-Americans every year(and that's considered a disappointment considering the history of the program), MBB has made it to the NCAAs three times in seven years with a tourney win(trying to get over the sweet 16 hump), baseball is starting to be respectable now that it's nearly full scholarship(has one NCAA appearance), and women's soccer has been to the NCAAs once or twice since we went DI and won the Summit regular season title this year(lost to SDSU in the conference championship game).

Basically, the only reason SDSU wins the Commissioner's Cup every year is because NDSU doesn't sponsor enough Summit sports(14 to SDSU's 18). Now I'm not saying that being at the top of the Summit is the same thing as being at the top of the MVC or larger conferences, but NDSU has a history of rising to the top of whatever conference they're in. They made their way to the top of the NCC, the GWFC, the Summit, and the MVFC. It shouldn't be a stretch to imagine NDSU wouldn't do the same in a future conference after a few years' adjustment.

Short version: NDSU actually does the opposite of what you claim.

Unless you were just writing that to get a rise out of NDSU posters, in which case, got a way to get this hook out of my cheek?