The Ivy Lament

[colgate13]

The latest (http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/07/07/42ccd39b69fd5) Ivy newspaper to try and call their presidents out on their athletic policies, specifically how football gets the shaft in a 10 game season and no playoffs.

God bless their little hearts... Maybe one day, if I wish upon a really bright star, the presidents will have a change of heart? :o

What the hell am I thinking, this is the Ivy League! :bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::deadhorse:deadhorse :deadhorse:deadhorse:spank::spank::spank::bang::ba ng::deadhorse:deadhorse:mad:

[Ivytalk]

It sounds like the Ivy presidents, as a group, are more secretive than the College of Cardinals.

[yomama]

Unlike basketball, volleyball, or tennis, they are not allowed to compete at the top NCAA level.

So why should they bother with the playoffs? They like to think of themselves as Division I.

[PapaBear]

The real hyporcrisy of academia is treating athletic talent as though it's inferior to other talents. No one would argue that gifted musicians and painters are as "gifted" as gifted mathematicians, logicians and writers -- just in different ways.

But don't dare introduce athletic gifts into the equation.

Can someone please explain to me why Michael Vick deserves less respect for his talent than Maya Angelou deserrves for hers?

[yomama]

I hope you're not suggesting Vick belongs at an Ivy League school. Wow. Let's give the kid a chance to graduate.

The Ivies do consider athletic talent in the "equation." That's why each sets aside 30 slots per year for football admissions.

[PapaBear]

I hope you're not suggesting Vick belongs at an Ivy League school.

You read the post, right? Did it sound like that's what I was suggesting?

For the record, I wasn't suggesting that Maya Angelou deserved to be a First Round NFL draft choice, either.

My point is that gifts and talents come in various forms. A math student that wins a Nobel Prize brings great and very positive notoriety to a school. So does an NFL Hall of Famer.

If the school covets the Nobel Prize winner more than the NFL Hall of Famer, then to me it says they place a higher value on academic talent than they do on athletic talent.

And I'd like to know the rationale behind that "argument."

[yomama]

If the school covets the Nobel Prize winner more than the NFL Hall of Famer, then to me it says they place a higher value on academic talent than they do on athletic talent.

And I'd like to know the rationale behind that "argument."

Sorry...I didn't mean to get drawn into a crank thread.

[RadMann]

Yomama: Don't fall into the BCS fan mistake and say that I-AA is not "division I". Both I-A and I-AA are division I.

[MR. CHICKEN]

WHAT DUH IVIES ARE DOIN' IS ..VERAH SIMILIAR...TA WHAT DELAWARE IS DOIN' IN DA ISSUE O' PLAYIN' DELAWARE STATE...FRUSTRATIN'...VERAH ...VERAH FRUSTRATIN'!..:bang:................BRRAAAWWWWKKKK K!

[MR. CHICKEN]

RALPH....DEY ARE REFUSIN' TA PARTICPATE...PLAY BALL...HOWEVERAH YA WANNA PUT IT!............DUH!..........AWK! :bang:

[MR. CHICKEN]

THE IVIES HOG-HEADED STANCE OF NOT PARTICIPATIN' IN DUH PLAY-OFFS...IS VERAH REMINISANT....O' UD'S.....VIEW...TA NOT SCHEDULE OUR BROS'...FROM DOVER!........DEY ENJOY DA CONTROVERSY!........BAWK!

AH'M NOT SAYIN'....YEAH...AH AM SAYIN'!!

[Go...gate]

I hope the following makes some sense :confused: .

I'm a great admirer of the Ivy League, but the situation with the League and the NCAA 1-AA playoffs is about as hypocritical as it gets. The issue of intereference with the academic year is a ridiculous concept (I can't help thinking that the Ivy League schools feel that their students need extra time before Final Exams so they can catch up with the work they blew off the rest of the semester :eek: ).

Football players at the 1-AA level have already had to discipline themselves to play ball and keep up their studies; indeed, the time management skills learned from striving to keep such a balance are more valuable down the road than any windy professor's lecture missed due to a extra road trip or two.

Lots of 1-AA football players all over the country handle the balance and excel at their schoolwork; if football players at the Ivies are (allegedly) so much intellectually stronger than other schools, why should they have greater problems with balancing their books and athletics?

[JohnStOnge]

Good luck to 'em. I think it'd help I-AA a lot.

And how do we know Michael Vick couldn't make it through an Ivy League school if he were given a shot to try? Do we have data that allows us to conclude that, once you're into one, any Ivy League school is more challenging than Virginia Tech is?

[Husky Alum]

Some Cantab can correct me if I'm wrong, but Harvard's first semester exams are in JANUARY, so the argument that football playoffs detracts from exam preparation is more of a farce than it would appear.

Harvard's exam schedule impacts basketball, hockey, swimming, etc., just as much if not more than football.

Funny, it hasn't hurt the historical performance of the mens/womens ice hockey teams in Cambridge - or the women's hoop team as well. As for men's hoops at Harvard - Frank Sullivan is exceptionally unimpressive.

Heck, for years the NESCAC (the conference with Williams, Amherst, Trinity, Tufts, etc.) wouldn't let their teams play in ANY NCAA championship competition, and I believe that slowly changed in the 1980s and 1990s.

Personally, I'd have loved to see Harvard play William & Mary in the first round of the NCAA's last fall.

[Ivytalk]

Some Cantab can correct me if I'm wrong, but Harvard's first semester exams are in JANUARY, so the argument that football playoffs detracts from exam preparation is more of a farce than it would appear.



Husky's absolutely right. Also, Harvard provides a 10-day, post-Christmas break "reading period" in January for all of its students to catch up and cram. I believe Princeton does the same.

[Go...gate]

They do, Ivytalk. Imagine a playoff game at Soldiers Field (Harvard Stadium), Franklin Field, etc.

[PapaBear]

Sorry...I didn't mean to get drawn into a crank thread.

No, I'm the one who should apologize.

It's a touchy subject with me, this whole "academics vs. athletics" thing. Didn't mean to come off cranky.

[Ivytalk]

They do, Ivytalk. Imagine a playoff game at Soldiers Field (Harvard Stadium), Franklin Field, etc.

That's exactly the problem, 'gate: I do imagine it ... frequently! ;)

[JohnStOnge]

Harvard may have been seeded!

I think it's beyond "May." I think it's almost certain that they would've been. And if they'd have been participating I wouldn't have been surprised to see them seeded in the top 2 so that they'd have had home field through the first three rounds as long as they won.

[GannonFan]

Now you've done it. I was being kind to the Harvard fans... no use getting them riled about those playoffs they were denied last year...

Denied-schmide - they weren't denied anything. Harvard, and therefore those that associate with it, willingly choose to forgo the NCAA championship format for their own reasons. If they really wanted to change it, i.e. if enough alumni, students, and those who put money in Harvard's coffers, they would have changed it awhile ago. As it is, only a minority really want to change it and the rest are happy with the status quo. Lament all you want, if you really wanted to make a change convince enough fellow Ivy-Leaguers to make the change. It'd be fun to have ya, but we'll keep playing without you anyway.

[Go...gate]

Harvard might well have been an upper seed (1-8), but the 10-game schedule really hampers the Ivy in this regard. Another game against a half-decent program is required to get them a really high seed; unfortunately, just beating Yale, Dartmouth, Penn or Princeton is not enough. That's the problem confronting the Ivy League. The Patriot League had the same difficulty from '86 to '96, but exposure to the play-offs forced the PL schools to raise the bar, not only in commitment but also out-of-conference success, which has gradually improved for the PL in the last 5-7 years.

[GannonFan]

The team was denied a playoff berth... maybe UD benifited from that??

No, the team and players willingly joined a program and an institution that, on their own choice, wishes not to be a part of the playoff system. The NCAA and the selection committee have not decided to exclude the Ivy's (that would be a case of denying), rather, Harvard and other Ivy's choose not to play. Surely you're not saying that the Harvard athlete, reknown as they are for intellectual ability, did not realize the stance of his university when he decided to attend Harvard? Shame on you.

As for the knock on UD, shouldn't that kind of banter be restricted to the Smack Board??? Tsk Tsk.

[WMTribe90]

I agree with GF. The Harvard players and coaches chose to forgo the playoffs when they knowingly and willingly signed with a team from a conference that chooses not to participate in the playoffs. This not to say I don'y sympathize with the players.

I chose WM over Harvard, Dartmouth, UD and Villanova. The Ivy shools lack of spring practice ('95) and there stance with respect to the I-AA playoffs factored into my ultimate decision. Admitedly not the primary consideration, but certainly a negative in the column for both schools.

UR's alumni spoke out and threatened to withdrawl financial support to defeat a move to the PL this offseason.

Ivy alums should do the same to force participation in the playoffs.

I think Harvard would/should have been seeded somewhere in the 5-8 range had the participated in the playoffs and been awarded a first-round home game. There schedule, while very respectable, was not better than the four seeded teams or JMU or UNH for that matter IMO. Where did they fall in the GPI rankings?

[GannonFan]

Where was the knock on UD?? :confused: The Harvard team and players did not choose to stay out of the playoffs as you may have guessed.

The knock on UD was saying that Harvard being "denied" (your words) a spot in the playoffs may have led to UD being included in the playoffs, or to put it another way, UD got in the playoffs because Harvard was so ill-treated. As that's patently false, I tend to view it as smack.

The Harvard team and players did choose to stay out of the playoffs - when they went to Harvard they went knowing that the Ivy League does not participate in the playoffs by their own (the Ivy League that is) choice. If they didn't know that then they're guilty of not researching their choice fully enough. Either way, their own decision to play for Harvard, or any other Ivy, included them deciding not to play in the playoffs. Life is tough - but when you "lament" something you decide to do yourself, that's on you. (wow, pretty deep stuff, huh?)

[JohnStOnge]

Hey Ralph, where was Harvard ranked in the last GPI prior to last year's playoffs?

[ChickenMan]

Hey Ralph, where was Harvard ranked in the last GPI prior to last year's playoffs?

Harvard was #5... right behind UNH and just ahead of UD. However that was the final GPI.

[MR. CHICKEN]

HAD THE IVY LEAGUE....BEEN PLAY-OFF ELIGIBLE.....HAAVAAD WUDDA HAD AN AUTO BID.............LAFAYETTE...BEAT...LEHIGH IN REGULAR SEASON PATRIOT PLAY..(DEY TIED AT 5-1 IN CONFERENCE)...LEHIGH WUDDA BEEN LEFT OUT O' DUH DANCE...RIGHT...NOT UD?......BIG RED....HAD ALSO BEATEN ...DUH SPOTS...38-23 IN UH OOC GAME...AH BELIEVE!.............BRAWK!

GLAD WE DIDN'T HAVE TA FACE 'EM......BILL & MARE....WERE TOUGH ENOUGH!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Denied-schmide - they weren't denied anything. Harvard, and therefore those that associate with it, willingly choose to forgo the NCAA championship format for their own reasons.... If they really wanted to change it, i.e. if enough alumni, students, and those who put money in Harvard's coffers, they would have changed it awhile ago. As it is, only a minority really want to change it and the rest are happy with the status quo....


I agree with GF. The Harvard players and coaches chose to forgo the playoffs when they knowingly and willingly signed with a team from a conference that chooses not to participate in the playoffs. This not to say I don'y sympathize with the players.

I chose WM over Harvard, Dartmouth, UD and Villanova. The Ivy shools lack of spring practice ('95) and there stance with respect to the I-AA playoffs factored into my ultimate decision. Admitedly not the primary consideration, but certainly a negative in the column for both schools.

UR's alumni spoke out and threatened to withdrawl financial support to defeat a move to the PL this offseason....Ivy alums should do the same to force participation in the playoffs....

As we've now officially hit tin-foil-hat territory, let's clear something up.

First, yes, I do agree that it's a minority of people that want to change the status quo in the Ivies regarding playoff participation. Unfortunately, they are the guys and girls that run the schools. And these folks don't run by polls - they run by their own perceived educational values. The are not affected by public opinion or alumni.

That's not to say I agree with thier stance. I think the Ivy's lack of paticipation in the I-AA playoffs cheapens their league and the leagues that play them regularly (read: the Patriot League). But to say that mobilizing public opinion on the matter will change their mids is silly. If the Ivy presidents are hell-bent on cheapening I-AA football, they will do it, damn the feedback from students, parents, and alumni.

Ivies have actually lost recruits from this - look at WMTribe90's example.

A lot of Ivy presidents will just have to retire to make this happen. Could withholding alumni contributions help? Possibly, but it would take an awful lot of them.

[MR. CHICKEN]

ANOTHERAH...SCENARIO..........IT COSTS MAJOR DUCATS TA ATTEND DUH HALLOWED HALLS...........IVIES SHUFFLE DUH ATHLETES THRU DEM IN FOUR YEARS.....DEY DON'T RED-SHIRT..........YA GET UH SCHOLLIE...OR GRANT 'N AID...OR PELL GRANT...OR WHATEVERAH.......THEY ONLY EAT FOUR YEARS...NOT FIVE!.........MR. CHICKEN IS IN UH JOURNALISTIC ZONE!.:rotateh::rotateh::bow::rotateh::rotateh:.BR AWK!

[henfan]

What does Univ. of Delaware's refusal to play the only in-state D-I (and I-AA) team in football have to do with this discussion?

Perhaps Mr. Chicken is suggesting that both decisions are perceptively arrogant, hypocritical and done without legitimate explanation?

[LBPop]

Having experienced the Ivy League recruiting process as a parent about 18 months ago, I have two observations to offer. I apologize for repeating the gist of some previous posts.

1) I believe that the Ivy League presidents refuse playoff participation in football as a result of their amazing egos. The past two years they crowned undefeated Ivy League champions. By keeping them out of the playoffs they did not have to risk their champion losing to an "inferior" academic institution and they could revel the rest of the year in that school's accomplishment--they are the Undefeated Ivy League Champs! I suspect that they truly believe that the Ivy League championship is at least as prestigious as the national trophy which is always won by one of those "inferior" schools. Having heard the Penn mantra the year after they won it (2003), I do not think I am overstating this attitude.

2) This remarkable concern for the academic danger in allowing the players to continue the season during the playoffs is utterly hypocritical. The Ivy League schools accept dozens and dozens of kids for football who would never have gotten a second glance by the admissions people without football. When asked directly how many of the previous year's recruits would have gotten into Yale without football, this particular coach estimated, "No more than two". They completely manipulate their academic standards for football during recruiting, so why not bend a little to let the guys play on when they have earned it?

It's total nonsense and the height of arrogance to think that the rest of us don't see right through it. Sorry folks, this one hits a hot button with me. I think I will now have beer and relax. :bang:

[Go...gate]

Agreed, LB Pop. This issue has also been touched upon in that Holy Cross post.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Perhaps Mr. Chicken is suggesting that both decisions are perceptively arrogant, hypocritical and done without legitimate explanation?

HENFAN......YOU ARE AN ASTUTE STUDENT O' DA GAME!....:nod:....BRAWK!

[colgate13]

Some late thoughts:

-The playoffs and (back then) no freshman football is what steered me away from Ivys (among other things).
-Dartmouth is on quarters, not semesters. How do the playoffs screw that up?
-I whole heartedly agree with LBPop; the Ivys think their brand is best. I-AA is beneath them.

[blukeys]

Some late thoughts:

-I whole heartedly agree with LBPop; the Ivys think their brand is best. I-AA is beneath them.
So if a GSU or Montana or God forbid An A-10 or Pl team kick's their butts in the playoffs the Cognitive dissonance would be unbearable.

[Purple Knight]

The real hyporcrisy of academia is treating athletic talent as though it's inferior to other talents. No one would argue that gifted musicians and painters are as "gifted" as gifted mathematicians, logicians and writers -- just in different ways.

But don't dare introduce athletic gifts into the equation.

Can someone please explain to me why Michael Vick deserves less respect for his talent than Maya Angelou deserrves for hers?

I think 'The Lecherous Professor' addresses the issue why most faculty and administration do not like sports. During their primary education, they were usually the last ones chosen for any game. By the time they entered secondary education classes, most were socially challenged. These things can mess with your life.

[bulldog10jw]

When asked directly how many of the previous year's recruits would have gotten into Yale without football, this particular coach estimated, "No more than two". They completely manipulate their academic standards for football during recruiting, so why not bend a little to let the guys play on when they have earned it?



I just wish they would bend things a little better than a 5 and 5 record and 4 straight losses to Harvard. We should be able to manipulate better than that.

[colgate13]

I just wish they would bend things a little better than a 5 and 5 record and 4 straight losses to Harvard. We should be able to manipulate better than that.

xlolx

Honesty is the best policy!

[LBPop]

I just wish they would bend things a little better than a 5 and 5 record and 4 straight losses to Harvard. We should be able to manipulate better than that.

Funny line. Actually, I really should give that coach credit. Having had several serious conversations with 4 of the Immaculate Eight and a couple more with two others, I must say that the Yale assistant was, without a doubt, the most forthcoming. I guess it's true...no good deed goes unpunished. ;)

[bonarae]

This saddens me... another reason that I root for I-A more than the Ivy League... :(