club football vs. NCAA football ... at Sacred Heart, etc.?

[Boogs]

Noticed there's some organization known as the National Club Football Association that has Sacred Heart as one of its teams.

What is that all about? Sacred Heart already has a NCAA sanctioned team. Doesn't club football chip away at the depth for the NCAA team?

I can understand that at an enormous Big Ten school, but at a lower tier somewhat non-scholarship FCS school...like Sacred Heart?

Club team's facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Sacred-Heart-Club-Football-906451196071306/

[bonarae]

Hmm... some non-football (currently) schools have club teams that are popular, e.g. New Orleans and Xavier.

Club football and sprint football (some Ivies have squads that keep the latter's tradition alive) are two entirely different things.

Club football teams work like intramural teams...

[clenz]

What is that all about? Sacred Heart already has a NCAA sanctioned team. Doesn't club football chip away at the depth for the NCAA team?


no.

If your club team has players good enough to play on your NCAA team your NCAA team has some very real issues and probably shouldn't exist.

[PAllen]

no.

If your club team has players good enough to play on your NCAA team your NCAA team has some very real issues and probably shouldn't exist.

Not necessarily. I played club lacrosse at Lehigh. We had a few guys who dropped down from the top 25 varsity squad due to time constraints. At least two of them were on ROTC scholarships and between ROTC, their engineering degree, and D-I Lacrosse, something had to give. They still wanted to play, so they played for the club team which was more of a practice once or twice a week as you can and show up for games as you can.

[clenz]

Not necessarily. I played club lacrosse at Lehigh. We had a few guys who dropped down from the top 25 varsity squad due to time constraints. At least two of them were on ROTC scholarships and between ROTC, their engineering degree, and D-I Lacrosse, something had to give. They still wanted to play, so they played for the club team which was more of a practice once or twice a week as you can and show up for games as you can.
That's not chipping away at depth because that team existed. Those kids, from what I gathered, were going to stop the varsity team no matter what - maybe I'm wrong.

I stand by my if your varsity team isn't able to out recruit your club team you have some real issues.

[blackbeard]

Noticed there's some organization known as the National Club Football Association that has Sacred Heart as one of its teams.

What is that all about? Sacred Heart already has a NCAA sanctioned team. Doesn't club football chip away at the depth for the NCAA team?

I can understand that at an enormous Big Ten school, but at a lower tier somewhat non-scholarship FCS school...like Sacred Heart?

Club team's facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Sacred-Heart-Club-Football-906451196071306/

Doesn't chip away at depth in any way. Calling it "Club Football" at SHU is a stretch, its glorified intramural football, just that instead of having multiple campus teams they have one and play other schools. They may pick up a few walk-ons who quit the NCAA roster but none that would provide any depth. SHU uses athletics to recruit a lot of kids to campus, sponsoring 31 NCAA sports teams along with multiple club programs. But there is a big talent gap in every sport between the NCAA and the Club team.

[Boogs]

... its glorified intramural football,....

Miami University's club team (the school in Oxford, Ohio not the school in Miami, Florida) beat D3 Mount St. Joseph's JV team in 2014 and once again in 2015. The team had matching uniforms, trainers, and coaches in matching polo shirts and khakis. They were not drawing up plays on the ground.

[SENOREIDA]

Hmm... some non-football (currently) schools have club teams that are popular, e.g. New Orleans and Xavier.

Club football and sprint football (some Ivies have squads that keep the latter's tradition alive) are two entirely different things.

Club football teams work like intramural teams...
Sprint Football is a CSFL sanctioned sport. I really wouldn't call it a club sport, I am pretty sure you get scholarships for it. But, I only know it through the Service Academies, and they are full ride institutions regardless of athletics.

[clenz]

Miami University's club team (the school in Oxford, Ohio not the school in Miami, Florida) beat D3 Mount St. Joseph's JV team in 2014 and once again in 2015. The team had matching uniforms, trainers, and coaches in matching polo shirts and khakis. They were not drawing up plays on the ground.

They beat a D3 JV team?

Having played D3 on a top 20 D3 team I can promise you that's not too much of an accomplishment.

[Mattymc727]

How the hell does a D3 program have a JV team? I dont even think UNH has a JV team.

I assume the JV team at a D3 school is club football...

[RichH2]

They beat a D3 JV team?

Having played D3 on a top 20 D3 team I can promise you that's not too much of an accomplishment.
Perhaps not to most but it surely was to the kids on the club team. And isn't that really the point of club sports.

[PAllen]

That's not chipping away at depth because that team existed. Those kids, from what I gathered, were going to stop the varsity team no matter what - maybe I'm wrong.

I stand by my if your varsity team isn't able to out recruit your club team you have some real issues.

I honestly don't know what they would have done if club ball wasn't an option. I would guess that you are correct, that they would have dropped from the varsity team either way. I was simply replying with an example of having a club team with players on it that were good enough to play for the Div-I varsity squad, and where said varsity squad was not in trouble at all. Now if you have kids dropping athletic scholarships to go play for the club team, then yes, you've got issues.

[blackbeard]

Miami University's club team (the school in Oxford, Ohio not the school in Miami, Florida) beat D3 Mount St. Joseph's JV team in 2014 and once again in 2015. The team had matching uniforms, trainers, and coaches in matching polo shirts and khakis. They were not drawing up plays on the ground.

Wasn't making a blanket statement for every school, just talking about SHU based on personal knowledge. And it also isn't Sprint Football, completely different. Here is a link to the organization they play under: http://www.ncfafootball.org/Teams.aspx

[clenz]

How the hell does a D3 program have a JV team? I dont even think UNH has a JV team.

I assume the JV team at a D3 school is club football...
I can't speak for the east coast but every D3, NAIA and most JUCO teams in the upper-midwest has a JV program.

I played at Wartburg and there was 130 of us on the roster. JV games were played on Sunday afternoon/nights against JV teams from JUCOs, NAIAs and other conference schools. We then would not be at Friday's practice to avoid the rule about how much time a coach can have contact.

[Boogs]

I can't speak for the east coast but every D3, NAIA and most JUCO teams in the upper-midwest has a JV program.

I played at Wartburg and there was 130 of us on the roster. JV games were played on Sunday afternoon/nights against JV teams from JUCOs, NAIAs and other conference schools. We then would not be at Friday's practice to avoid the rule about how much time a coach can have contact.

From 2014: Part of the bench for St. Joe's JV team:

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22341&stc=1

Notice the size of St. Joe's JV team.

[Boogs]

Club football teams work like intramural teams...

Just to be clear, are you saying there are small, perhaps 4 team leagues, at one school that play against each other? Is there enough player interest for that? Flag football would be possible but full tackle teams?

[Sycamore62]

I always figured JV D3 teams were to keep people interested in football when they werent on scholarship and not getting playing time in Varsity games

[clenz]

I always figured JV D3 teams were to keep people interested in football when they werent on scholarship and not getting playing time in Varsity games
D3 has no scholarships.

It's a strange mix.
Some guys are JV all 4 years.
Some guys play JV as a freshman/sophomore strictly for game experience
Some are guys that will play ball for a year or two and then quit.


Most guys fall into category 1 or 3. The guys in category 2 get nearly all of the PT. The JV games may keep some around for maybe a second year but at that point it's pretty clear if you'll play varsity or not. Typical D3 roster break down is 50 freshman, 30 sophomores, 25 juniors, and 15-20 (in a good year) seniors.

[Boogs]

I always figured JV D3 teams were to keep people interested in football when they werent on scholarship and not getting playing time in Varsity games

Is it possible the D3 players get "leadership scholarships" (it legally skirts around the NCAA rules) to cover their expenses?

Do these so-called leadership scholarships almost always go to athletes? Or for that matter do they even exist? Is it a myth?

<Maybe I should have started another thread for this?>

[clenz]

Is it possible the D3 players get "leadership scholarships" (it legally skirts around the NCAA rules) to cover their expenses?

Do these so-called leadership scholarships almost always go to athletes? Or for that matter do they even exist? Is it a myth?

<Maybe I should have started another thread for this?>
It's tracked what % goes to athletes vs non athletes. It needs to be proportional.

Now, many D3s find ways around the rules with minority scholarships, you went to a small school scholarship, you came from an area that we don't get many students from so here's some money to attract you to our school scholarship, etc...

[UAalum72]

If you play JV you still use up a year of eligibility, so scholarship teams would rather you redshirt. D-III and the Ivy figure you're going to graduate in four years anyway, so a JV doesn't cost the school any depth.

[dgtw]

I went to high school with a guy who was offered by a DIII school that if he went there, they'd "work something out" so he could get what amounted to a football scholarship.

[Boogs]

I'm wondering if this NCFA catches on, it will dilute the player quality at the D3 level.

Think about it for a minute. Would you rather go to Michigan State and play a 8-9 game season on Sundays at the club level with a paid and organized coaching staff, or pay thru the nose at some private D3 school to play D3?

If I were in charge of D3 I'd be concerned about the spreading of the NCFA's influence.

Honestly, I'm shocked a NEC school like Sacred Heart fields a club team. Imagine if a PFL school like Dayton, Butler or Valpo starts a club team. Gotta believe the days of having 110 players on your NCAA roster will be in jeopardy. What if word gets out and Sacred Heart gets a roster that is twice as big for 2016 as they had in 2015? Now you have a larger student body of athletes going to Sacred Heart to play football which means some NCAA school didn't get them -- dilution.

[Bisonoline]

I'm wondering if this NCFA catches on, it will dilute the player quality at the D3 level.

Think about it for a minute. Would you rather go to Michigan State and play a 8-9 game season on Sundays at the club level with a paid and organized coaching staff, or pay thru the nose at some private D3 school to play D3?

If I were in charge of D3 I'd be concerned about the spreading of the NCFA's influence.

Honestly, I'm shocked a NEC school like Sacred Heart fields a club team. Imagine if a PFL school like Dayton, Butler or Valpo starts a club team. Gotta believe the days of having 110 players on your NCAA roster will be in jeopardy. What if word gets out and Sacred Heart gets a roster that is twice as big for 2016 as they had in 2015? Now you have a larger student body of athletes going to Sacred Heart to play football which means some NCAA school didn't get them -- dilution.

Nope. Thats not how it works. Club teams get there players from the student body. Youre way out there on this.

[clenz]

Nope. Thats not how it works. Club teams get there players from the student body. Youre way out there on this.
[/B]

I had an awesome meme involving a triply back ground and a person tripping on acid all set to post...for once in my life I decided not to be a d bag. Nice to know I'm not the only one who thought that post was bad

[Bisonoline]

I had an awesome meme involving a triply back ground and a person tripping on acid all set to post...for once in my life I decided not to be a d bag. Nice to know I'm not the only one who thought that post was bad

Seems he has this premise locked in his head.

[blackbeard]

Nope. Thats not how it works. Club teams get there players from the student body. Youre way out there on this.
[/B]

Bingo. Not sure why he's beating on this dead horse. Can guarantee a kid isn't going to turn downplaying D3 ball (with some leadership scholarship money) to pay full tuition to play Club ball at SHU. Club sports are for the student body only, can't imagine them ever being a recruiting tool.

[Boogs]

Bingo. Not sure why he's beating on this dead horse. Can guarantee a kid isn't going to turn downplaying D3 ball (with some leadership scholarhsip money) to pay full tuition to play Club ball at SHU. Club sports are for the student body only, can't imagine them ever being a recruiting tool.

Ok, but what about a decent high school player who resides in Michigan, paying in-state tuition at Michigan State according to his own plan by design in order to play on their club team?

You get more bang for your buck at Michigan State playing on the club team instead of paying money at a private (and expensive) D3 school.

Keep in mind, they practice, wear matching uniforms, travel using a school allocated bus and school paid hotel rooms, and the club gets an allocated budget...and here's the big one...you can still get a job to pay for school during the rest of the school year. Their NCAA counterpart cannot, correct?

Plus, (no offense to D3 NCAA/NAIA schools) your Michigan State student ID gets you admission to the NCAA game on Saturday.

[clenz]

Ok, but what about a decent high school player who resides in Michigan, paying in-state tuition at Michigan State according to his own plan by design in order to play on their club team?

You get more bang for your buck at Michigan State playing on the club team instead of paying money at a private school (and expensive) D3 school.

Keep in mind, they practice, wear matching uniforms, and the club gets an allocated budget...and here's the big one...you can still get a job to pay for school. Their NCAA counterpart cannot, correct?

Plus, (no offense to D3 NCAA/NAIA schools) your Michigan State student ID gets you admission to the NCAA game on Saturday.
http://t1.livememe.com/1ow6em_4.jpg

[Boogs]

http://t1.livememe.com/1ow6em_4.jpg

Are you sure? Wright State and Oakland University go out and recruit, and scout their opponents during the season.

[RichH2]

Less than 2% of HS players play college football. There are over 1.2 million HS players. I really dont see the substance to this debate. Great that some colleges offer club ball for those who just want to play. There are more than enuf to fill out club rosters at more schools. Almost certainly there are a few who could play at a higher level. So what.
Club sports also an opportunity for kids to try football. There are many HSs that do not play football. My nephew was one of them. Played soccer and baseball. Got a partial for baseball as a C. His college has a club football squad. Wound up playing LB for 4 yrs and loved it.

[Bisonoline]

Ok, but what about a decent high school player who resides in Michigan, paying in-state tuition at Michigan State according to his own plan by design in order to play on their club team?

You get more bang for your buck at Michigan State playing on the club team instead of paying money at a private (and expensive) D3 school.

Keep in mind, they practice, wear matching uniforms, travel using a school allocated bus and school paid hotel rooms, and the club gets an allocated budget...and here's the big one...you can still get a job to pay for school during the rest of the school year. Their NCAA counterpart cannot, correct?

Plus, (no offense to D3 NCAA/NAIA schools) your Michigan State student ID gets you admission to the NCAA game on Saturday.

What point are you trying to drive to? You keep coming up with scenarios for what? And you are wrong on who pays the expenses.

[PAllen]

What point are you trying to drive to? You keep coming up with scenarios for what? And you are wrong on who pays the expenses.

The university paid the vast majority of our expenses for club lacrosse. I think we had to pay for our own shorts and bring our own helmet, gloves, and stick. The rest (including trasportation; think a couple of 12 passenger fleet vans driven by club members, uniform, and pads) was paid for out of club funds which were provided by the university out of their student clubs budget, or loaned by the university (the case for pads and jerseys). We had the ability to go out and raise additional funds on our own, but didn't as the only overnighter we had, we crashed at someone's parents house.

[RichH2]

PAllen
Pretty much the same for Rugby. We bought unis. LU provided transportation and referee's fee and equipment. We had a bunch of trips and a few tournaments. We crashed in various homes or dorms. LU did front us the funds for a weekend tourney in NYC. A real Hotel and food :).

[Bisonoline]

The university paid the vast majority of our expenses for club lacrosse. I think we had to pay for our own shorts and bring our own helmet, gloves, and stick. The rest (including trasportation; think a couple of 12 passenger fleet vans driven by club members, uniform, and pads) was paid for out of club funds which were provided by the university out of their student clubs budget, or loaned by the university (the case for pads and jerseys). We had the ability to go out and raise additional funds on our own, but didn't as the only overnighter we had, we crashed at someone's parents house.

That is on a club by club basis depending on the university and athletic dept..

[Boogs]

What point are you trying to drive to? You keep coming up with scenarios for what? And you are wrong on who pays the expenses.

I like the attractiveness of a Big Ten education. Right off the bat, that's a personal opinion here.

I've seen some facilities in the Ohio Athletic Conference and I'm thinkin' "what the heck is there, here"...with/without a leadership scholarship (which is controversial for some folks to even bring up).

For less money, which includes a club player football fee, you get a school dedicated budget for uniforms, hotels, paid coach(es), all for a 8-9 season against comparable D3 talent (think Michigan State, Oakland University and Wright State) while you get more sports, facilities at the same or lesser price. The NCFA is growing with more teams and yes, the roster sizes are filling out on average per team.

As far as your 'who pays the expenses' comment...what did you mean?

If I go to Wittenberg, you don't get D1 football to watch in person on Saturdays with your student ID. You also get top notch workout centers both in quality and quantity.

That being said , take a look at Michigan State's roster as a first year team. You can't tell me those players decided to play club football after arriving on campus as an afterthought. I don't see the evidence for that.

[Bisonoline]

I like the attractiveness of a Big Ten education. Right off the bat, that's a personal opinion here.

I've seen some facilities in the Ohio Athletic Conference and I'm thinkin' "what the heck is there, here"...with/without a leadership scholarship (which is controversial for some folks to even bring up).

For less money, which includes a club player football fee, you get a school dedicated budget for uniforms, hotels, paid coach(es), all for a 8-9 season against comparable D3 talent (think Michigan State, Oakland University and Wright State) while you get more sports, facilities at the same or lesser price. The NCFA is growing with more teams and yes, the roster sizes are filling out on average per team.

As far as your 'who pays the expenses' comment...what did you mean?

If I go to Wittenberg, you don't get D1 football to watch in person on Saturdays with your student ID. You also get top notch workout centers both in quality and quantity.

That being said , take a look at Michigan State's roster as a first year team. You can't tell me those players decided to play club football after arriving on campus as an afterthought. I don't see the evidence for that.

You are seeing what you want because you already have a preconceived notion locked in. I will leave you to those thoughts.

[Thumper 76]

I like the attractiveness of a Big Ten education. Right off the bat, that's a personal opinion here.

I've seen some facilities in the Ohio Athletic Conference and I'm thinkin' "what the heck is there, here"...with/without a leadership scholarship (which is controversial for some folks to even bring up).

For less money, which includes a club player football fee, you get a school dedicated budget for uniforms, hotels, paid coach(es), all for a 8-9 season against comparable D3 talent (think Michigan State, Oakland University and Wright State) while you get more sports, facilities at the same or lesser price. The NCFA is growing with more teams and yes, the roster sizes are filling out on average per team.

As far as your 'who pays the expenses' comment...what did you mean?

If I go to Wittenberg, you don't get D1 football to watch in person on Saturdays with your student ID. You also get top notch workout centers both in quality and quantity.

That being said , take a look at Michigan State's roster as a first year team. You can't tell me those players decided to play club football after arriving on campus as an afterthought. I don't see the evidence for that.

Actually I most likely can tell you that. A friend of mine from high school was a hell of an athlete who if he wanted to could have played some DII ball, but wasn't really interested in it much so chose to go to a school that fit him best. Had there been club football there he certainly would have played it. He ended up doing club rugby instead. From personal experience a guy who plays DIII had the goal of playing football after high school. There are plenty of people out there who made the decision not to play because they didn't have that level of love of the game to have to have that level of dedication . But they certainly would enjoy playing it at a more relaxed setting of a club team. Do you think club hockey teams have a similar affect?

Also I wasn't able to find MSU specific costs for student tickets but Ohio State and Michigan both charge for tickets for students, as does Wisconsin, and I would imagine the majority of the B1G. Unless you were saying that they get the tickets for free for being on the club team?

[dgtw]

Who do they have as coaches for the club teams?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boogs]

... but Ohio State and Michigan both charge for tickets for students, as does Wisconsin, and I would imagine the majority of the B1G. Unless you were saying that they get the tickets for free for being on the club team?

When did they start charging for regular season games? Ohio State has a lottery system for awarding tickets on top of that.

Ohio State charges for their spring game nowadays. Noticed on their twitter feed about that. The rich get richer, and since the weather will be great the place could be sold-out.