Moving up to FBS question

[bluehenbillk]

Having a discussion with a stubborn friend and need some assistance. Regarding FCS teams moving to FBS, what are the requirements regarding conference affiliation? Does a team need an invite from an existing FBS conference or can they make the move from FCS to become a FBS independent?

Any links to the answer would be appreciated.

[Laker]

They have to be invited to a conference.

I'll try to find a link.

[Laker]

I could find more if needed.

https://www.quora.com/How-can-a-college-or-university-switch-their-NCAA-sports-Division

http://texannews.net/to-d-1-or-not-to-d-1-that-is-the-question/

http://pilotonline.com/sports/college/sun-belt-commish-says-jmu-will-remain-in-the-caa/article_25c33fa9-c07c-59d7-9731-7b29310d51c0.html

[BisonFan02]

Need a conference. Otherwise, Liberty would have already made the move.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

1. You need an invite from an existing FBS conference if you want to transition to FBS.
2. There is no path to become an FBS conference if you are an existing FCS conference.
3. There is no path to transitioning to FBS without leaving long-standing conference affiliations in all other sports.

The three dumbest rules in the NCAA, and they cause of a lot of problems.

[ATL_DANE]

Has a conference ever officially challenged their ability to host FBS football?

This policy seems the most unAmerican principle I've heard in a while. How does stopping programs from upgrading in any any way hurt others?

Why is this policy different for FBS then it is for any other move?

Where else do you see this idea? Well you can't take action to improve your life unless I agree to it... even though I'm asking nothing of you in any respect (dollars, assistance, etc)

The FCS schools should threaten to leave the NCAA.

[Laker]

The FCS schools should threaten to leave the NCAA.

A much more likely scenario would have been that the Power 5 conferences would leave, not the FCS.

[RootinFerDukes]

Having an invite to an FBS conference is the ONLY requirement.

5k fans in the stands? 7th fiddle in your big media market and essentially an afterthought? non-competitive in football and other sports for years, if not decades? a completely cash-strapped university that is making a terrible financial decision that they will later regret? SURE WHY NOT! COME JOIN OUR FBS CONFERENCE BECAUSE YOU'RE LOCATED WITHIN AN HOUR OF A MAJOR CITY!

[BisonFan02]

Having an invite to an FBS conference is the ONLY requirement.

"5k fans in the stands? 7th fiddle in your big media market and essentially an afterthought? non-competitive in football and other sports for years, if not decades? a completely cash-strapped university that is making a terrible financial decision that they will later regret? SURE WHY NOT! COME JOIN OUR FBS CONFERENCE BECAUSE YOU'RE LOCATED WITHIN AN HOUR OF A MAJOR CITY!"

-Karl Benson

Slight FIFY... xlolx

[bonarae]

Has a conference ever officially challenged their ability to host FBS football?

The Big West stopped offering football around 15-20 years ago, their last sustainable straw was snapped when Pacific dropped football.

[Twentysix]

The Big West stopped offering football around 15-20 years ago, their last sustainable straw was snapped when Pacific dropped football.

I think he means an example of an existing FCS conference, suing to move to FBS unimpeded and losing.

[ATL_DANE]

I think he means an example of an existing FCS conference, suing to move to FBS unimpeded and losing.

Correct. Has a FCS Conference ever sued or even officially fought for the right to host FBS football?

What grounds do other conferences have to say to the CAA or any other FCS conference that 'no' you can't offer FBS football?

What grounds?

Who the hell has the right and grounds to say no? The CAA has lost several programs thus revenue due to the NCAA.

The NCAA has caused financial harm with what justification?

[RootinFerDukes]

I suppose a school or conference could sue the NCAA but it'll be on their dime, obviously, and you know there will be backlash if anything but private money are funding that.
Additionally, even if you won, what bridges were burnt? You have now pissed off every P5 and G5 program and you'll struggle to find willing fbs teams to schedule you.
It is likely rigged to not favor a school that bothered to attempt such a thing. NCAA membership is not a right and what other alternative is there? The NAIA where you'll be even more obscure?

[SENOREIDA]

Correct. Has a FCS Conference ever sued or even officially fought for the right to host FBS football?

What grounds do other conferences have to say to the CAA or any other FCS conference that 'no' you can't offer FBS football?

What grounds?

Who the hell has the right and grounds to say no? The CAA has lost several programs thus revenue due to the NCAA.

The NCAA has caused financial harm with what justification?
An FCS conference cannot move up to FBS. And a new conference cannot be created and become a FBS conference, unless I believe 6 current FBS members found the conference.

[tigonian02]

An FCS conference cannot move up to FBS. And a new conference cannot be created and become a FBS conference, unless I believe 6 current FBS members found the conference.

Along with those 6 FBS members being in the same conference for a given amount of time.

[taper]

The NCAA is a private organization and they can set any rule they want. Should Notre Dame be able to sue the NFL because they won't let them join a conference? I have some problems with the current division setup, and it's definitely based on money, but they are free to do so.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Correct. Has a FCS Conference ever sued or even officially fought for the right to host FBS football?

What grounds do other conferences have to say to the CAA or any other FCS conference that 'no' you can't offer FBS football?

What grounds?

Who the hell has the right and grounds to say no? The CAA has lost several programs thus revenue due to the NCAA.

The NCAA has caused financial harm with what justification?

About five years ago, within earshot of a reporter, Tom Yeager asked a representative of the NCAA whether it would be possible for a conference to suddenly host FBS football if a majority of their members wanted to do so. He was told unequivocally no.

The CAA (or another conference) could indeed sue, but the risks would be enormous. The NCAA could revoke their membership, and P5 teams (who certainly don't want more FBS teams) could shun them in all sports.

[Bisonator]

I'm guessing eventually a state or states with no FBS school will challenge this rule. Once the threat of legislative action is used it will be gone much like the BCS.

[Twentysix]

I'm guessing eventually a state or states with no FBS school will challenge this rule. Once the threat of legislative action is used it will be gone much like the BCS.

Seems like an eventuality. The suit might even come from the Dakotas at some point. NDSU SDSU UND USD will all eventually decide they should be FBS.

[Sly Fox]

The non-profit nature of the organization does open it up to some oversight. It has been speculated in our Liberty circles for several years that even the threat of a lawsuit might force the NCAA to create some loopholes to let in the few schools ready to make the move. But nothing has developed as a challenge up to this point.

[walliver]

The NCAA is a private organization and no school is forced to join. On the other hand, the NCAA has a virtual monopoly on college athletics and is subject to antitrust laws.

The NCAA claimed the exclusive rights to non-local broadcasts of college football, was sued, and lost.
The NCAA was successfully sued by the NIT.
The NCAA is struggling against player lawsuits and came out with the FCOA attempt at an olive branch.
The NCAA has a monopoly on big-time college football, and the 10 FBS conferences are functioning as a cartel.

That being said, there are only a handful of FCS teams that really want to move to FBS at all costs, and they don't want to burn any bridges just yet.

[AmsterBison]

The NCAA is a private organization and no school is forced to join. On the other hand, the NCAA has a virtual monopoly on college athletics and is subject to antitrust laws.

The NCAA claimed the exclusive rights to non-local broadcasts of college football, was sued, and lost.
The NCAA was successfully sued by the NIT.
The NCAA is struggling against player lawsuits and came out with the FCOA attempt at an olive branch.
The NCAA has a monopoly on big-time college football, and the 10 FBS conferences are functioning as a cartel.

That being said, there are only a handful of FCS teams that really want to move to FBS at all costs, and they don't want to burn any bridges just yet.

I disagree with the bit in bold. ESPN has more control over big-time college football than the NCAA. So does the P5. The only interested party with less control over big-time college football than the NCAA is the G5... but only because they are all but powerless.

[GManFromTigerland]

Need a conference. Otherwise, Liberty would have already made the move.
You don't need a conference. There are other requirements that keep FCS teams from moving up.

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[GManFromTigerland]

Here is a list of requirements to move to FBS as stated by the NCAA. No where does it say you have to be invited.

Basic eligibility requirements to move up to FBS from FCS
1.Sponsor a minimum of 16 varsity intercollegiate sports, including football, based on the
minimum sports sponsorship and scheduling requirements set forth in Bylaw 20.
Sponsorship shall include a minimum six sports involving all male teams or mixed teams
(males and females), and a minimum of eight varsity intercollegiate teams involving all
female teams. Institutions may use up to two emerging sports to satisfy the required eight
varsity intercollegiate sports involving all female teams. [Bylaw 20.9.7.1]
2. Schedule and play at least 60 percent of its football contests against members of Football
Bowl Subdivision. Institutions shall schedule and play at least five regular season home
contests against Football Bowl Subdivision opponents. [Bylaw 20.9.7.2]
3. Average at least 15,000 in actual or paid attendance for all home football contests over a
rolling two-year period. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3]
4. Provide an average of at least 90 percent of the permissible maximum number of overall
football grants-in-aid per year over a rolling two-year period. [Bylaw 20.9.7.4-(a)]
5. Annually offer a minimum of 200 athletics grants-in-aid or expend at least four million dollars
on grants-in-aid to student-athletes in athletics programs. [Bylaw 20.9.7.4-(b)]
Source: NCAA.com


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[ursus arctos horribilis]

Here is a list of requirements to move to FBS as stated by the NCAA. No where does it say you have to be invited.

Basic eligibility requirements to move up to FBS from FCS
1.Sponsor a minimum of 16 varsity intercollegiate sports, including football, based on the
minimum sports sponsorship and scheduling requirements set forth in Bylaw 20.
Sponsorship shall include a minimum six sports involving all male teams or mixed teams
(males and females), and a minimum of eight varsity intercollegiate teams involving all
female teams. Institutions may use up to two emerging sports to satisfy the required eight
varsity intercollegiate sports involving all female teams. [Bylaw 20.9.7.1]
2. Schedule and play at least 60 percent of its football contests against members of Football
Bowl Subdivision. Institutions shall schedule and play at least five regular season home
contests against Football Bowl Subdivision opponents. [Bylaw 20.9.7.2]
3. Average at least 15,000 in actual or paid attendance for all home football contests over a
rolling two-year period. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3]
4. Provide an average of at least 90 percent of the permissible maximum number of overall
football grants-in-aid per year over a rolling two-year period. [Bylaw 20.9.7.4-(a)]
5. Annually offer a minimum of 200 athletics grants-in-aid or expend at least four million dollars
on grants-in-aid to student-athletes in athletics programs. [Bylaw 20.9.7.4-(b)]
Source: NCAA.com


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You do have to be invited to join a conference.

[GManFromTigerland]

You do have to be invited to join a conference.
Yes to join a conference but not to move up to FBS.

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[ccd494]

FCS schools, as NCAA members, are free to bring up rule changes to the organization they freely decide to associate with. And the rest of the membership of the NCAA are free to vote down those rule changes. And FCS schools are free to leave their voluntary association with the NCAA whenever they want.

You don't get to join the Elks Club and then sue them for making a rule saying you can't poop on the floor during Bingo. If every other Elk voted on a rule saying pooping on the floor was not allowed, well, try the Lions Club.

All these schools that are convinced the NCAA is out to get them- the NCAA isn't some monolith that sits in Indianapolis that spits out rules that every school hates. The schools are the rulemakers, the NCAA is the enforcement. If schools don't like the rules, they are free to advocate for change amongst their fellow constituents.

[clenz]

Yes to join a conference but not to move up to FBS.

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False

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yes to join a conference but not to move up to FBS.

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You can not move up to FBS without the FBS conference invite. If a school could do this, Liberty would be there already.

[clenz]

You can not move up to FBS without the FBS conference invite. If a school could do this, Liberty would be there already.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2014/08/19/college-football-liberty-flames-fcs-fbs-development-expansion/14299979/

[ursus arctos horribilis]

GMan, you are new here but I assure you this very snipet of the debate has been discussed, cited, and settled hundreds of times here. I know you posted some standard rules but those are not all that it is.xthumbsupx

[ATL_DANE]

FCS schools, as NCAA members, are free to bring up rule changes to the organization they freely decide to associate with. And the rest of the membership of the NCAA are free to vote down those rule changes. And FCS schools are free to leave their voluntary association with the NCAA whenever they want.

You don't get to join the Elks Club and then sue them for making a rule saying you can't poop on the floor during Bingo. If every other Elk voted on a rule saying pooping on the floor was not allowed, well, try the Lions Club.

All these schools that are convinced the NCAA is out to get them- the NCAA isn't some monolith that sits in Indianapolis that spits out rules that every school hates. The schools are the rulemakers, the NCAA is the enforcement. If schools don't like the rules, they are free to advocate for change amongst their fellow constituents.

So was Tom Yeager just a poor leader? Why couldn't he get the rule change? Even if you don't upgrade you want the option if/when it makes sense.

[GManFromTigerland]

GMan, you are new here but I assure you this very snipet of the debate has been discussed, cited, and settled hundreds of times here. I know you posted some standard rules but those are not all that it is.xthumbsupx
I'm green to the site but not to NCAA rules. A recent example of moving to FBS from FCS is University of North Carolina at Charlotte. They were an FCS independent in 2013 before deciding to move up to FBS. They were originally going to move into C-USA in every sport EXCEPT football so they could play as an Independent team (no conference). Their thoughts of moving up as an independent changed during their mandatory 2 year play as an FCS team. The officially joined C-USA in all sports after realizing they weren't as strong independently as they originally believed they would be. The NCAA never forced them to join a conference. It was a business decision. Any team that meets those rules can move to FBS as an independent without joining a conference.

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[Laker]

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2015-16DIMEM_FCStoFBSReclassificationApplicationForm_20 160405.pdf

Page 3

16. List the Division I multisport conference in which your institution has accepted membership and the sports inwhich you will compete in that conference:

Conference: __________________________________________________ ___________________________

Men: __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________

Women: __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

17. Has the conference approved your initial strategic plan? [Note: NCAA Bylaw 20.5.2.3 requires approval.]Yes No

18. Does your institution sponsor football? Yes No

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'm green to the site but not to NCAA rules. A recent example of moving to FBS from FCS is University of North Carolina at Charlotte. They were an FCS independent in 2013 before deciding to move up to FBS. They were originally going to move into C-USA in every sport EXCEPT football so they could play as an Independent team (no conference). Their thoughts of moving up as an independent changed during their mandatory 2 year play as an FCS team. The officially joined C-USA in all sports after realizing they weren't as strong independently as they originally believed they would be. The NCAA never forced them to join a conference. It was a business decision. Any team that meets those rules can move to FBS as an independent without joining a conference.

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Your outline of UNCC is in essence what happened but how it happened is a bit off. There were many discussions on here with the UNCC folks and I will try and find some to give the needed context of what the school was trying to do. The absolutely would have taken a CUSA offer in football if it were offered at the time. They were fishing to go Sun Belt until their dream came true and realignment allowed them membership opportunity.

A few of the UNCC guys are still around once in a while so maybe one of them will chime in as well.

[dgtw]

Charlotte had been a C-USA member in the past but got kicked out (along with St. Louis) when the league banned non-football members. I suspect they had an open invitation to return if they ever sponsored football.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Charlotte had been a C-USA member in the past but got kicked out (along with St. Louis) when the league banned non-football members. I suspect they had an open invitation to return if they ever sponsored football.

That is exactly what it was if I recall.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'm green to the site but not to NCAA rules. A recent example of moving to FBS from FCS is University of North Carolina at Charlotte. They were an FCS independent in 2013 before deciding to move up to FBS. They were originally going to move into C-USA in every sport EXCEPT football so they could play as an Independent team (no conference). Their thoughts of moving up as an independent changed during their mandatory 2 year play as an FCS team. The officially joined C-USA in all sports after realizing they weren't as strong independently as they originally believed they would be. The NCAA never forced them to join a conference. It was a business decision. Any team that meets those rules can move to FBS as an independent without joining a conference.

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Looking for a few UNCC threads but will provide these for some context as well.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?130086-APPALACHIAN-STATE-GEORGIA-SOUTHERN-TO-JOIN-SUNBELT-ANNOUNCEMENT-WEDNESDAY&highlight=uncc

http://www.journalnow.com/sports/asu/football/article_753216e0-956f-11e2-b44c-001a4bcf6878.html

If an invite were not needed App and GSU would not have been waiting for one for years.

[GManFromTigerland]

Charlotte had been a C-USA member in the past but got kicked out (along with St. Louis) when the league banned non-football members. I suspect they had an open invitation to return if they ever sponsored football.
That still doesn't change the fact they were moving as an independent to FBS from FCS. Being in a conference has perks such as big TV deals, sponsorships, and bowl bids, but you don't have to be invited to a conference to make the move to FBS. Some things are just facts and can be answered with a simple email.

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[ursus arctos horribilis]

That still doesn't change the fact they were moving as an independent to FBS from FCS. Being in a conference has perks such as big TV deals, sponsorships, and bowl bids, but you don't have to be invited to a conference to make the move to FBS. Some things are just facts and can be answered with a simple email.

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They were not moving as an independent man. It is not allowed. They could not move until they had an invite.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

http://wset.com/archive/liberty-plans-move-from-fcs-to-fbs-level


Liberty may be ready to make a movebut now they have to wait for an invitation from a conference but they "willnow sit on their hands" during the waiting process. Barber said, "We'refully funded in all 20 sports. We can't get any better there. Our facilitiesare growing at a rapid pace and we have a plan in place to get all of ourfacilities to a very significant FBS level. The only thing we can do now is tojust continue to win, continue to get better, win championships, get in theNCAA Tournaments and advance through the playoffs."

When that invitation comes, Falwellsaid the school is willing to make the decision within 48 hours, something otherFCS level schools could not do.

[NY Crusader 2010]

They were not moving as an independent man. It is not allowed. They could not move until they had an invite.

I was under the understanding that a conference invite was 100% needed to move up (as many have posted here). But, is it possible that a school could move up as an independent in the following scenario?:

1) A school that sponsors FCS football is invited to play football in an FBS conference.
2) The school reclassifies as FBS and upgrades scholarships but plays it's first year (or two) in FBS as an independent because the conference to which it was invited deems it not yet ready for the level of play OR because a current member of that conference is slated to leave that conference for another but hasn't yet done so.
3) Finally, after 1-2 years as an independent, said school joins that conference as a football member.

I'm sure the rules have changed since then but isn't this how UConn moved up in 1999? They had an invited to join the Big East but weren't ready to play a full conference schedule in Years 1 or 2. Thus, they started as an indy playing a transitional schedule that gradually escalated in degree of difficulty over three seasons.

- - - Updated - - -

[GManFromTigerland]

Looking for a few UNCC threads but will provide these for some context as well.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?130086-APPALACHIAN-STATE-GEORGIA-SOUTHERN-TO-JOIN-SUNBELT-ANNOUNCEMENT-WEDNESDAY&highlight=uncc

http://www.journalnow.com/sports/asu/football/article_753216e0-956f-11e2-b44c-001a4bcf6878.html

If an invite were not needed App and GSU would not have been waiting for one for years.
False. Moving to a conference is easier than being straight up independent but it is not necessary.

GeorgiaSU and App waited because they wanted to move to a conference. Georgia SU didn't have the attendance numbers for a long time. They weren't hitting the 15k attendance mark. Also there are some other demands that come along with being FBS once you're FBS including new financial burdens that cause schools to hold back.
Conferences are looking for the school that is well respected, has a pretty large endowment, is a large school and preferrably a state flagship with statewide support, and has marketable athletics to be relevant in a large TV market. App and GeorgiaSU had to prove themselves to conferences or go independent which would have been a tougher road.

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[ursus arctos horribilis]

False. Moving to a conference is easier than being straight up independent but it is not necessary.

GeorgiaSU and App waited because they wanted to move to a conference. Georgia SU didn't have the attendance numbers for a long time. They weren't hitting the 15k attendance mark. Also there are some other demands that come along with being FBS once you're FBS including new financial burdens that cause schools to hold back.
Conferences are looking for the school that is well respected, has a pretty large endowment, is a large school and preferrably a state flagship with statewide support, and has marketable athletics to be relevant in a large TV market. App and GeorgiaSU had to prove themselves to conferences or go independent which would have been a tougher road.

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Wow dude, you are really off base. There is no rule that is more pliable than that 15k rule. ASU and GSU flat blew that standard away and pretty much always have.

I gave you another link that stated why Liberty has not went as well. Don't worry, that's not all. It is just what I found quickly and I am in the middle of some other things but will get back to you...or someone else will.

Don't set yourself up here with being stuck on your belief cuz I assure you it is incorrect.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I was under the understanding that a conference invite was 100% needed to move up (as many have posted here). But, is it possible that a school could move up as an independent in the following scenario?:

1) A school that sponsors FCS football is invited to play football in an FBS conference.
2) The school reclassifies as FBS and upgrades scholarships but plays it's first year (or two) in FBS as an independent because the conference to which it was invited deems it not yet ready for the level of play OR because a current member of that conference is slated to leave that conference for another but hasn't yet done so.
3) Finally, after 1-2 years as an independent, said school joins that conference as a football member.

I'm sure the rules have changed since then but isn't this how UConn moved up in 1999? They had an invited to join the Big East but weren't ready to play a full conference schedule in Years 1 or 2. Thus, they started as an indy playing a transitional schedule that gradually escalated in degree of difficulty over three seasons.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not sure on that one NYSader but I'll bet someone will have an answer on it for you that knows more about the situation from back then.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Liberty announced in May of 2012, five days before ODU said it was joining Conference USA, that it planned to move to FBS. But while ODU is playing the first of two transition seasons into FBS, Liberty is on hold, awaiting an invitation from an FBS conference, which under NCAA rules is necessary to move up.

Athletic director Jeff Barber has talked with the Sun Belt and C-USA. Media reports indicate the Sun Belt is the most likely to ask Liberty to join.

http://pilotonline.com/sports/college/in-mission-to-reach-fbs-flames-set-for-a-following/article_8049ae28-7858-5828-85f4-b82ccbf65d00.html

[rokamortis]

A conference invitation is 100% necessary to move up to FBS. Using Charlotte as the example is fine, as long as you get the facts straight. Charlotte wanted to be FBS but was going to go FCS first. They explored various FCS conferences but the ones they wanted (SoCon and CAA) wouldn't let them be football only members. The article linked below says the Big South wouldn't either, but I find that hard to believe considering the conference relies on affiliate members as well as admitted startup KSU as an affiliate.

UNCC decided they would be FCS independent (fall 2011) and then the CUSA invite came (spring 2012).

UNCC never planned to play as an FBS independent.

http://gmine.blogspot.com/2011/09/49ers-to-play-as-fcs-independent.html?m=1#ixzz1ZNfzNrA6

[GManFromTigerland]

Wow dude, you are really off base. There is no rule that is more pliable than that 15k rule. ASU and GSU flat blew that standard away and pretty much always have.

I gave you another link that stated why Liberty has not went as well. Don't worry, that's not all. It is just what I found quickly and I am in the middle of some other things but will get back to you...or someone else will.

Don't set yourself up here with being stuck on your belief cuz I assure you it is incorrect.
Go to NCAAs website and search for attendance records and you will see Georgia SU was barely crossing the 15k most years. They weren't averaging near 20k or more to be considered blowing away attendance. Straight facts.

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[OhioHen]

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2015-16DIMEM_FCStoFBSReclassificationApplicationForm_20 160405.pdf

Page 3

16. List the Division I multisport conference in which your institution has accepted membership and the sports inwhich you will compete in that conference:

Conference: __________________________________________________ ___________________________

Men: __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________

Women: __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

17. Has the conference approved your initial strategic plan? [Note: NCAA Bylaw 20.5.2.3 requires approval.]Yes No

18. Does your institution sponsor football? Yes No

If this is the requirement, then a school should be able to successfully argue that they DON'T need an FBS conference invite to go FBS in football.

Line 16 requires membership in a Division I multisport conference. Most of the FCS conferences are multisport conferences, so that requirement is met by being a member of any of those multisport conferences.

[UAalum72]

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2015-16DIMEM_FCStoFBSReclassificationApplicationForm_20 160405.pdf

Page 3

16. List the Division I multisport conference in which your institution has accepted membership and the sports inwhich you will compete in that conference:

Conference: __________________________________________________ ___________________________

Men: __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________

Women: __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

17. Has the conference approved your initial strategic plan? [Note: NCAA Bylaw 20.5.2.3 requires approval.]Yes No

18. Does your institution sponsor football? Yes No
This form is for Reclassification from Division II to Division I and is not related specifically to FBS membership


From the August 2015 NCAA Division I Manual http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D116.pdf
20.4.2 Football Subdivision Reclassification Options. A member of Division I may petition to be classified in football in the Football Bowl Subdivision or the Football Championship Subdivision. (Adopted:
1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
20.4.2.1 Reclassification from Football Championship Subdivision to Football Bowl Subdivision.
20.4.2.1.1 Eligibility for Reclassification. Before a Football Championship Subdivision institution may apply for reclassification to the Football Bowl Subdivision, the institution must receive a bona fide invitation
for membership from a Football Bowl Subdivision conference or a conference that previously met the definition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference (see Bylaw 20.02.6). (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

The "previously met" definition is for a two-year grace period if a conference falls below eight members because a school failed or fell below FBS requirements.

[GManFromTigerland]

This form is for Reclassification from Division II to Division I and is not related specifically to FBS membership


From the August 2015 NCAA Division I Manual http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D116.pdf
20.4.2 Football Subdivision Reclassification Options. A member of Division I may petition to be classified in football in the Football Bowl Subdivision or the Football Championship Subdivision. (Adopted:
1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
20.4.2.1 Reclassification from Football Championship Subdivision to Football Bowl Subdivision.
20.4.2.1.1 Eligibility for Reclassification. Before a Football Championship Subdivision institution may apply for reclassification to the Football Bowl Subdivision, the institution must receive a bona fide invitation
for membership from a Football Bowl Subdivision conference or a conference that previously met the definition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference (see Bylaw 20.02.6). (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

The "previously met" definition is for a two-year grace period if a conference falls below eight members because a school failed or fell below FBS requirements.
Right. Also to be considered division I you have to compete in so many sports as a DI school. Some people don't know schools can compete as a DI in one sport while DII in others. No rule currently exist to block any team from becoming anew FBS team. There was only a moratorium that that blocked teams from moving up in football, but was lifted in 2011. The NCAA has talked about reinstating it, but has not done so as of yet. Again, there is not an official bylaw that prevents a team from moving up without an invite from a conference.

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[Lehigh Football Nation]

Right. Also to be considered division I you have to compete in so many sports as a DI school. Some people don't know schools can compete as a DI in one sport while DII in others. No rule currently exist to block any team from becoming anew FBS team. There was only a moratorium that that blocked teams from moving up in football, but was lifted in 2011. The NCAA has talked about reinstating it, but has not done so as of yet. Again, there is not an official bylaw that prevents a team from moving up without an invite from a conference.

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What?

1) That D-II and D-I rule does not apply to football or men's basketball (Dayton Rule)
2) The singular D-I sport rule only applies to grandfathered schools that had this dual reality already in place pre-2000 (I think). It's meant to allow Johns Hopkins Lacrosse, Minnesota State Hockey, etc. to exist. It's not a path that a current D-III or D-II school can pursue.

Edit: It is actually Bylaw 20.4.1.1, and it's the 2010-11 year.

[GManFromTigerland]

If this is the requirement, then a school should be able to successfully argue that they DON'T need an FBS conference invite to go FBS in football.

Line 16 requires membership in a Division I multisport conference. Most of the FCS conferences are multisport conferences, so that requirement is met by being a member of any of those multisport conferences.
Reread line 16. It's doesn't say that you have to play under a conference to be FBS nor does it say something like "Name the conference you will play in." IT'S says name the sports you have and what conferences you play those sports under.

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[Lehigh Football Nation]

So GMan, congratulations, you made me look it up.

20.4.2.1 Reclassification from Football Championship Subdivision to Football Bowl Subdivision.20.4.2.1.1 Eligibility for Reclassification. Before a Football Championship Subdivision institutionmay apply for reclassification to the Football Bowl Subdivision, the institution must receive a bona fide invitationfor membership from a Football Bowl Subdivision conference or a conference that previously met thedefinition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference (see Bylaw 20.02.6). (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

[GManFromTigerland]

I stand corrected. Had this been put out there from jump no one would have been able to start this argument. Great job putting out undeniable facts. My information was old. Well I was correct up until 2011, LOL.

[clenz]

I stand corrected. Had this been put out there from jump no one would have been able to start this argument. Great job putting out undeniable facts. My information was old. Well I was correct up until 2011, LOL.
Reason it wasn't in there before that?

There was a moratorium against being able to move at all, invite or not.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Go to NCAAs website and search for attendance records and you will see Georgia SU was barely crossing the 15k most years. They weren't averaging near 20k or more to be considered blowing away attendance. Straight facts.

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They were always over it is the point and App was blowing it away every year for their last 5 or 6 in FCS. You seem to think that the attendance rule menas something when the NCSAA hasn't enforced it against teams that are already FBS.

I guarantee you Idaho, directional Michigans, and a variety of others are below the number but they get to do little cheat type things like play an away game at a big school and claim it as a home game to boost their crappy attendance figure for the two year rolling average.

I'm trying to break you in gently around here man but you are well out of you depth on this issue here. You will not be for long though unless you are here to be a contrarian.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I stand corrected. Had this been put out there from jump no one would have been able to start this argument. Great job putting out undeniable facts. My information was old. Well I was correct up until 2011, LOL.

Didn't see this prior to posting the last one but the reason it wasn't posted up before that is that I did not know the exact location although I have see it posted dozens and dozens of times...so I knew it to be fact and was trying to let you know that soon...by today probably, someone would post the actual link or section of the bylaws that pertained to the topic.

I provided you pretty solid circumstantial evidence that should have had you back off a the claim a bit but instead you dug in as if it had to be an argument so I obliged knowing that your information was incorrect.xthumbsupx

[GManFromTigerland]

Didn't see this prior to posting the last one but the reason it wasn't posted up before that is that I did not know the exact location although I have see it posted dozens and dozens of times...so I knew it to be fact and was trying to let you know that soon...by today probably, someone would post the actual link or section of the bylaws that pertained to the topic.

I provided you pretty solid circumstantial evidence that should have had you back off a the claim a bit but instead you dug in as if it had to be an argument so I obliged knowing that your information was incorrect.xthumbsupx
I don't like circumstantial evidence because as a math man you learn the data can be manipulated to say whatever you want it to say just like the evidence I provided shows that before 2011 the only thing that stopped teams from making the move up as an independent was a moratorium. I like hard facts so that way there's no shaking off nor denying the truth. As far as attendance numbers, there are a few teams that are missing the mark and as soon as someone brings this up, will be under fire for it because their are FCS teams that are strong enough and more desired to be apart of FBS. Offenders of attendance and brand as of 2014 are, Akron, Ball St., FIU, FLA Atlantic, GA St., Idaho, kent St., New Mexico St.,Northern Ill., and San Jose. As soon as there conference sees a chance to push them on down the road to replace them with some top FCS teams they will. The planets and stars will align again for top FCS teams to move up. I'm surprised the NCAA hasn't just stepped in and booted some of these teams.

[GManFromTigerland]

Here's a story on FIU being in jeopardy of being FBS. http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/college/conference-usa/florida-international-university/article31172816.html

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't like circumstantial evidence because as a math man you learn the data can be manipulated to say whatever you want it to say just like the evidence I provided shows that before 2011 the only thing that stopped teams from making the move up as an independent was a moratorium. I like hard facts so that way there's no shaking off nor denying the truth. As far as attendance numbers, there are a few teams that are missing the mark and as soon as someone brings this up, will be under fire for it because their are FCS teams that are strong enough and more desired to be apart of FBS. Offenders of attendance and brand as of 2014 are, Akron, Ball St., FIU, FLA Atlantic, GA St., Idaho, kent St., New Mexico St.,Northern Ill., and San Jose. As soon as there conference sees a chance to push them on down the road to replace them with some top FCS teams they will. The planets and stars will align again for top FCS teams to move up. I'm surprised the NCAA hasn't just stepped in and booted some of these teams.

1. We completely agree that numbers can be manipulated to further one's viewpoint.

2. There are a very significant number of G5 FBS teams that do not meet the minimum attendance requirement at all, and a larger number that have what might be considered "gaming the system" by playing neutral-site "home" games, having corporations buy up seats, etc. However the NCAA has chosen not to punish any of these offenders by stripping them of FBS status. Some, like UMass, are currently under "FBS Probation" (I believe) for not meeting the FBS requirements, but if memory serves they have years to cook the numbers so that they are out of "probation". IMO, attendance is essentially a toothless requirement.

3. Aside from "joining an existing FBS conference", there is literally no other due dilligence a school needs to do in order to make the move. Take, for example, Coastal Carolina, whose stadium cannot physically today hold the minimum 15,000 required (supposedly) for FBS membership. Coastal did not need to submit any transition plan for FBS, did not need to demonstrate any FBS readiness, nor did they need to survey the surrounding population to determine the potential demand for FBS football. They just needed to be invited.

A longer form take of mine is here:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/09/ncaa-should-stop-sun-belts-madness-of.html

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I don't like circumstantial evidence because as a math man you learn the data can be manipulated to say whatever you want it to say just like the evidence I provided shows that before 2011 the only thing that stopped teams from making the move up as an independent was a moratorium. I like hard facts so that way there's no shaking off nor denying the truth. As far as attendance numbers, there are a few teams that are missing the mark and as soon as someone brings this up, will be under fire for it because their are FCS teams that are strong enough and more desired to be apart of FBS. Offenders of attendance and brand as of 2014 are, Akron, Ball St., FIU, FLA Atlantic, GA St., Idaho, kent St., New Mexico St.,Northern Ill., and San Jose. As soon as there conference sees a chance to push them on down the road to replace them with some top FCS teams they will. The planets and stars will align again for top FCS teams to move up. I'm surprised the NCAA hasn't just stepped in and booted some of these teams.

These are just conversations dude. We don't have to act like it is a math test and that conversations equal a certain amount. But whatever you want to do I guess.

As for the attendance stuff, you do realize this under attendance at those schools has been going on for at least 20 yrs. with most of them right?

If the NCAA suddenly says "hey, we need to do something about these attendance underachievers!" then they will be sued quickly and lose and none of those teams will move down due to attendance unless they feel like it.

As far as FIU goes, they will take one or two of the bigger marketing customers and they will have them purchase season tickets (as many as necessary) instead of taking the cash directly for advertising it will be funneled through ticketing and viola, the problem is solved. Once they get a letter from the NCAA this will be the first thing that happens. Then they may also negotiate with a large school to allow them to call an away game a home game.

I'm glad you are here GMan but some of the things you are holding tightly to as facts are not that at all.

[Bisonator]

FCS schools, as NCAA members, are free to bring up rule changes to the organization they freely decide to associate with. And the rest of the membership of the NCAA are free to vote down those rule changes. And FCS schools are free to leave their voluntary association with the NCAA whenever they want.

You don't get to join the Elks Club and then sue them for making a rule saying you can't poop on the floor during Bingo. If every other Elk voted on a rule saying pooping on the floor was not allowed, well, try the Lions Club.

All these schools that are convinced the NCAA is out to get them- the NCAA isn't some monolith that sits in Indianapolis that spits out rules that every school hates. The schools are the rulemakers, the NCAA is the enforcement. If schools don't like the rules, they are free to advocate for change amongst their fellow constituents.
I don't think it will be any school or schools threatening a lawsuit that brings a rule change. It will more then likely come from a state or states legislators questioning the rule.

[Bisonator]

I don't like circumstantial evidence because as a math man you learn the data can be manipulated to say whatever you want it to say just like the evidence I provided shows that before 2011 the only thing that stopped teams from making the move up as an independent was a moratorium. I like hard facts so that way there's no shaking off nor denying the truth. As far as attendance numbers, there are a few teams that are missing the mark and as soon as someone brings this up, will be under fire for it because their are FCS teams that are strong enough and more desired to be apart of FBS. Offenders of attendance and brand as of 2014 are, Akron, Ball St., FIU, FLA Atlantic, GA St., Idaho, kent St., New Mexico St.,Northern Ill., and San Jose. As soon as there conference sees a chance to push them on down the road to replace them with some top FCS teams they will. The planets and stars will align again for top FCS teams to move up. I'm surprised the NCAA hasn't just stepped in and booted some of these teams.

I'm guessing you are still too young to know how things really work. #'s do in fact lie a lot.;)

[DoWe]

I don't like circumstantial evidence because as a math man you learn the data can be manipulated to say whatever you want it to say just like the evidence I provided shows that before 2011 the only thing that stopped teams from making the move up as an independent was a moratorium. I like hard facts so that way there's no shaking off nor denying the truth. As far as attendance numbers, there are a few teams that are missing the mark and as soon as someone brings this up, will be under fire for it because their are FCS teams that are strong enough and more desired to be apart of FBS. Offenders of attendance and brand as of 2014 are, Akron, Ball St., FIU, FLA Atlantic, GA St., Idaho, kent St., New Mexico St.,Northern Ill., and San Jose. As soon as there conference sees a chance to push them on down the road to replace them with some top FCS teams they will. The planets and stars will align again for top FCS teams to move up. I'm surprised the NCAA hasn't just stepped in and booted some of these teams.
Based on your historical account of Charlotte's transition I had a hunch your were not a "history man".

[GManFromTigerland]

Based on your historical account of Charlotte's transition I had a hunch your were not a "history man".
What? I'm not sure you're adjusted to talking to people but with me watch what ya say buddy. I have a vast amount of knowledge and as seen in this post I'll admit when I'm wrong, also, but one thing for sure and too things for certain I won't sit back and have you talking to me sideways. We can always have a discussion about almost anything but again I ask you watch the slick talk.

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[GManFromTigerland]

Since it's been proven in this discussion that the NCAA isn't really enforcing rules when it comes to being apart of the FBS, what are the true requirements to join the FBS?

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[clenz]

Since it's been proven in this discussion that the NCAA isn't really enforcing rules when it comes to being apart of the FBS, what are the true requirements to join the FBS?

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An invite from a conference
Play at least 5 home games
Maintain a 2 year average of 77 scholarships

[UAalum72]

An invite from a conference
Play at least 5 home games
Maintain a 2 year average of 77 scholarships
Also need at least sixteen sports (only fourteen for FCS)

[Bisonoline]

Since it's been proven in this discussion that the NCAA isn't really enforcing rules when it comes to being apart of the FBS, what are the true requirements to join the FBS?

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I believe you are confused between the requirements to join and after joining what you Really need to stay there.

[GManFromTigerland]

I believe you are confused between the requirements to join and after joining what you Really need to stay there.
All mighty mind reader, you are wrong. I'm not confused at all. There are written rules, but obviously the rules don't always apply otherwise some schools would be FCS instead of FBS.

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[Bisonoline]

All mighty mind reader, you are wrong. I'm not confused at all. There are written rules, but obviously the rules don't always apply otherwise some schools would be FCS instead of FBS.

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Same thing just worded differently.

[Thumper 76]

All mighty mind reader, you are wrong. I'm not confused at all. There are written rules, but obviously the rules don't always apply otherwise some schools would be FCS instead of FBS.

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I believe what he's saying is you need to meet the requirements to be allowed in the club, but once you are there the attendance one and possibly a few others are kind of don't ask don't tell.

[Bisonoline]

All mighty mind reader, you are wrong. I'm not confused at all. There are written rules, but obviously the rules don't always apply otherwise some schools would be FCS instead of FBS.

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Again there are rules to join. Then there are rules to stay. But the rules to stay are loosely enforced.

[GManFromTigerland]

I believe what he's saying is you need to meet the requirements to be allowed in the club, but once you are there the attendance one and possibly a few others are kind of don't ask don't tell.
I understand what he's saying and I'm not confused. Some schools are being dinged. While some aren't. I remember hearing a while back thar UMASS and South Bama were going on a 10 year probation. I'm not sure what came of it but I know they aren't the only repeat offenders of the 15k rule. The don't ask don't tell policy isn't universal.

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[Bisonoline]

I understand what he's saying and I'm not confused. Some schools are being dinged. While some aren't. I remember hearing a while back thar UMASS and South Bama were going on a 10 year probation. I'm not sure what came of it but I know they aren't the only repeat offenders of the 15k rule. The don't ask don't tell policy isn't universal.

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If you knew than why ask the question?

[GManFromTigerland]

If you knew than why ask the question?
Because maybe even there's a magic formula to getting an invite. With teams getting dinged on the rules moving up without really being able to meet all requirements while others are being overlooked there seems to be some unwritten rules.

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[T-Dog]

If there was no conference requirement to move to FBS, App would have moved in 2012. After Western Kentucky moved up in 2004-2005 (and FAU and FIU previously), the rule was changed so you had to have a FBS conference invite. Also there was a four-year moratorium on moving up until 2009-10 IIRC.

Charlotte was turned down by the Big South and SoCon, so they would have been an FCS Independent until CUSA threw them a lifeline. They had to spend two years as an FCS Independent (playoff ineligible) anyway as a new program, regardless of FBS. They were in CUSA last year, but bowl ineligible, not that it mattered. As of July 1st, they'll be full-fledged FBS members as long as everything is in order.

You have to have 15,000 attendance average minimum once every two years. Some schools have corporate partners buy blocks of seats that won't be used. Some count every trainer, paramedic on standby and so on to get 15,000. Eastern Michigan had students take it upon themselves to have students run in and out with different student ID's to inflate numbers. No FBS school has ever been punished under that rule.

You have to have a two-year rolling average of 76 scholarships during the transition. App had 70 in the first year (2013( and 82 in the second year (2014), mainly to even out the classes. Also, you have to keep Title IX in mind.

[DoWe]

I understand what he's saying and I'm not confused. Some schools are being dinged. While some aren't. I remember hearing a while back thar UMASS and South Bama were going on a 10 year probation. I'm not sure what came of it but I know they aren't the only repeat offenders of the 15k rule. The don't ask don't tell policy isn't universal.

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Dear Lord, are you portraying history again?

[Thumper 76]

Because maybe even there's a magic formula to getting an invite. With teams getting dinged on the rules moving up without really being able to meet all requirements while others are being overlooked there seems to be some unwritten rules.

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I just look at it like its an invite only club, and once your in its hard to get kicked out. That and I doubt the NCAA would want to deal with that mess after not strictly enforcing it for a while now. Would cause quite the shakeup.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

This debate is the same that started the path to splitting in the early 1970's when scholarship limits were introduced. When GS started in 1981-82, the "plan" was always to move quickly from I-AA to I-A. Money was always the issue and leadership was a problem in the early 90's and early 00's when we should've moved. By the time the 2010's came around, the conference invitation rule was the issue. Some of you may find it interesting to go back to the late 60's and read about the antics that ultimately led to the D1 football split.