Blood cancers and artificial turf

[Boogs]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2016/02/13/government-finally-to-look-into-possible-link-between-artificial-turf-and-cancer/#774676fc30cf

Lots of correlations (or coincidences) between female soccer goalies playing on artificial turf, and getting lymphoma cancer.

Wondering if we'll eventually see FCS players getting this type of cancer with the popularity of artificial grass?

[Boogs]

I can't edit a keystroke error in the title! It's suppose to be 'turf'.

[BisonFan02]

xlolx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Fixed

[UAalum72]

This story has been out before. Expect it affects goalies more because they spend more time diving on the ground, especially during practice. So for football would it affect linemen more than WRs?

[superman7515]

I'd like to ask you more about these female soccer goalies and artificial turds...

http://l.yimg.com/os/en-US/video/video.snl.com/SNL_1248_03_Jeopardy_EST.png

[Boogs]

SNL
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22325&stc=1

[chattownmocs]

38 American female soccer players? Do you guys have any idea how many female soccer players there are? I would be shocked if only 38 had been diagnosed. If there is real data, please, post it. But this article is ridiculous. They said 11,000 fields and they found 38 players? I guarantee you there is a heck of a lot more than that that didn't play on artificial turf.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Amongst the general population, 1 in 3 women are diagnosed with some sort of cancer. If 38 American goalies, out of all of the women playing on 11,000 fields have been diagnosed, I'm thinking that perhaps playing Goalie might be one of the most effective cancer preventative activities known to man...

Granted, I haven't read the article and I'm not trying to make light of anybody who is diagnosed, merely trying to put the numbers in perpsective...

[Go Green]

I miss real grass. I know that the turf holds up better, but still....

[Boogs]

38 American female soccer players? Do you guys have any idea how many female soccer players there are? I would be shocked if only 38 had been diagnosed. If there is real data, please, post it. But this article is ridiculous. They said 11,000 fields and they found 38 players? I guarantee you there is a heck of a lot more than that that didn't play on artificial turf.

Radio station WLW in Cincinnati talked about it again this past Saturday during the afternoon. Supposedly the turf material is being tested for being inhaled, etc..

Maybe goalie gloves and/or knee pads are the problem? The pink paint/dye on the equipment would be unique for the women's game.

Trying to figure out what else is common.

[X-Factor]

Here-in lies the problem with letting turds write articles about statistics.

Not only that, but even "statistically significant" is another completely meaningless finding. It is why FDA requires larged, controlled, double blinded studies over diverse populations. Even then the findings STILL arnt certain.

[Boogs]

Here-in lies the problem with letting turds write articles about statistics.

Not only that, but even "statistically significant" is another completely meaningless finding. It is why FDA requires larged, controlled, double blinded studies over diverse populations. Even then the findings STILL arnt certain.

People said that about cigarette smoking, but I'm not taking that chance by smoking now.

There may be a hormone interaction with breathing in turf dust that is unique with female athletes that doesn't occur with males.

[JayJ79]

Supposedly the turf material is being tested for being inhaled, etc..

but you get a wicked cool high if you snort it!

[Bisonoline]

Turf has been around since at least 1970. Now its an issue? The crap they come up with.

[Boogs]

I think the article centered around artificial grass blades and its kick-up and not blade-less carpet.

[AmsterBison]

People said that about cigarette smoking, but I'm not taking that chance by smoking now.

There may be a hormone interaction with breathing in turf dust that is unique with female athletes that doesn't occur with males.

And thinking of a possible mechanism is no substitute for doing the science. That road leads to things like the anti-vaxxer movement.

Gotta control for lots of things.

[IBleedYellow]

Would it be something with the rubber infill possibly?

[Hammerhead]

I can't find the stats to determine if the cancer risk is significant or worth looking into. Sounds like lead is another concern with artificial turf and pads for playgrounds. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/03/15/artificial-turf-health-safety-studies/24727111/

[clenz]

Turf has been around since at least 1970. Now its an issue? The crap they come up with.
Modern turf is significantly different than the carpet turf.

Could be nothing, but very easily could be something.


Then again, concussions are a new thing too and didn't exist in 1970

[Bisonator]

Where does the lead come in at with the turf? The article didn't really offer a direct correlation or am I missing it?

[Thumper 76]

Oh good, another one of these topics.

People who were around "X" got cancer! I think "X" causes cancer!

Did people around "X" get it at a higher rate than the general population?

No! But some got cancer! "X" must cause cancer!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[clenz]

Oh good, another one of these topics.

People who were around "X" got cancer! I think "X" causes cancer!

Did people around "X" get it at a higher rate than the general population?

No! But some got cancer! "X" must cause cancer!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
First of all, that bolded part is extremely important. It's how all medical research happens. It's how diseases are found. It's how cures are found. It is worth the time to see if it* has merit

*whatever the latest topic being researched is.

[Thumper 76]

First of all, that bolded part is extremely important. It's how all medical research happens. It's how diseases are found. It's how cures are found. It is worth the time to see if it* has merit

*whatever the latest topic being researched is.

It's absolutely worth researching, I have a problem with the people who don't wait for truly conclusive research to be finished to make an accurate assertion of something causing cancer. It's tiresome after a while.

[AmsterBison]

It's absolutely worth researching, I have a problem with the people who don't wait for truly conclusive research to be finished to make an accurate assertion of something causing cancer. It's tiresome after a while.

Haven't we had numerous scares... like apples cause cancer?

In fact, there's at least one "Does something you are around everyday giving you cancer? Details in tonight" story a week.

[Bisonator]

Haven't we had numerous scares... like apples cause cancer?

In fact, there's at least one "Does something you are around everyday giving you cancer? Details in tonight" story a week.

There's always a new study coming out. One day coffee is good for you, the next it could be killing you!xlolx

[walliver]

Does anyone really believe that inhaling recycled tires is good for you?

[KPSUL]

I'm no expert on artificial turf, but it is not the imitation blades of grass that is the problem, it is the tons of tiny little ground up bits of tire that functions like ballast to hold it in place (and provide cushioning) that are being ingested and ground into open scrapes and scratches that are the problem. Every time an athlete hits turf that is made this way, hundreds of these things are sent slightly airborne. I don't think all artificial turf has this characteristic, I'm sure the older stuff didn't. They started making turf like this largely to reduce costs and get rid of tons of old tires in the process.
You can't do double blind, controlled experiments when testing a hypothesis that something may be harmful. It's not ethical to form a perfectly healthy control group of people and make them engage in an activity that is suspected to cause harm so that they can be compared to another control group not engaging in the activity. There was a fair amount of anecdotal indications of this problem, and there has been statistical analysis done comparing the relatively small population of soccer goalies with other young people who do not play on this stuff. At least some of these studies have shown a correlation between blood cancers and playing goalie on the synthetic turf constructed with the ground up tire bits. There could be some antecedent variable that actually causes the Cancer, but as Walliver said above: "Does anyone really believe that inhaling recycled tires is good for you?"
Or maybe this: "Does it make sense to dump hazardous waste no one wants on the fields our kids play on"?

[clenz]

There's always a new study coming out. One day coffee is good for you, the next it could be killing you!xlolx
That's the thing about research, especially in health/medical fields.

One study isn't good enough. It needs verification. Variables need to be tested. If the second study comes out different we need to figure out why to see which study was flawed.

[AmsterBison]

I'm no expert on artificial turf, but it is not the imitation blades of grass that is the problem, it is the tons of tiny little ground up bits of tire that functions like ballast to hold it in place (and provide cushioning) that are being ingested and ground into open scrapes and scratches that are the problem. Every time an athlete hits turf that is made this way, hundreds of these things are sent slightly airborne. I don't think all artificial turf has this characteristic, I'm sure the older stuff didn't. They started making turf like this largely to reduce costs and get rid of tons of old tires in the process.
You can't do double blind, controlled experiments when testing a hypothesis that something may be harmful. It's not ethical to form a perfectly healthy control group of people and make them engage in an activity that is suspected to cause harm so that they can be compared to another control group not engaging in the activity. There was a fair amount of anecdotal indications of this problem, and there has been statistical analysis done comparing the relatively small population of soccer goalies with other young people who do not play on this stuff. At least some of these studies have shown a correlation between blood cancers and playing goalie on the synthetic turf constructed with the ground up tire bits. There could be some antecedent variable that actually causes the Cancer, but as Walliver said above: "Does anyone really believe that inhaling recycled tires is good for you?"
Or maybe this: "Does it make sense to dump hazardous waste no one wants on the fields our kids play on"?

Well, you've already reached your conclusions already so shouldn't they abandon the study? Societies ruled by hysteria are dangerous in their own special way.

Does anybody believe that playing on a surface with that has had numerous dogs crap on it is healthy? How about a surface soaked in pesticides, insecticides, and/or fertilizer? And in the NW, how about breathing in mold and mildew? Or the west/midwest, breathing in dust? And in the NE, breathing in the crap that passes for air while gamboling about on vegetation laden with Lyme-disease-carrying deer ticks?

[Thumper 76]

I'm no expert on artificial turf, but it is not the imitation blades of grass that is the problem, it is the tons of tiny little ground up bits of tire that functions like ballast to hold it in place (and provide cushioning) that are being ingested and ground into open scrapes and scratches that are the problem. Every time an athlete hits turf that is made this way, hundreds of these things are sent slightly airborne. I don't think all artificial turf has this characteristic, I'm sure the older stuff didn't. They started making turf like this largely to reduce costs and get rid of tons of old tires in the process.
You can't do double blind, controlled experiments when testing a hypothesis that something may be harmful. It's not ethical to form a perfectly healthy control group of people and make them engage in an activity that is suspected to cause harm so that they can be compared to another control group not engaging in the activity. There was a fair amount of anecdotal indications of this problem, and there has been statistical analysis done comparing the relatively small population of soccer goalies with other young people who do not play on this stuff. At least some of these studies have shown a correlation between blood cancers and playing goalie on the synthetic turf constructed with the ground up tire bits. There could be some antecedent variable that actually causes the Cancer, but as Walliver said above: "Does anyone really believe that inhaling recycled tires is good for you?"
Or maybe this: "Does it make sense to dump hazardous waste no one wants on the fields our kids play on"?

Wouldn't you think that it would have started to show in people who regularly are getting used engine oil, grease, dirt, rubber, and other assorted things rubbed into busted up knuckles, cuts, and scrapes? Like mechanics nationwide? And honestly how much of those pieces are actually inhaled? It's not a powder. What's so different from letting kids play on rubber mats made from recycled tires? And hazardous waste is a fun term to throw around to scare people. Unfortunately, most people don't realize the majority of people invest things that can be considered hazardous waste every day. Case in point, in college I had to help clean up a wreck from a milk truck. The tanker spilled a full truckload into the ditch. It was considered a hazardous waste contaminated area due to the volume. Most people clean their kitchen areas that they eat off of with things that when being disposed of, are considered hazardous. That term is right up there with the term chemicals. OMG, THERES CHEMICALS IN THAT!!!!! Yeah, dip****, water is a chemical. You are made up of different chemicals. There are just chemicals that are bad for you and chemicals that aren't. But everyone throws that term around like chemicals are the devil. Similar to when they talk about cigarettes and what's in them. Yes, I realize cigarettes are bad, whoever thinks lighting something on fire and breathing the smoke is not going to have at least some likely negative side affects is dumb. I just highly doubt they are taking gallons of rat poison or arsenic or whatever and dumping it into the tobacco before they roll the cigs. I don't doubt that there are things that show up in minute percentages that can be show to be a chemical used in rat poison, ect. But the fear lingering used by different organizations and people is just ridiculous sometimes. Good grief.

/end rant

[The Yo Show]

Also, its sad to say this, but at this point you also have to see who funded the turf to cancer connection research. Was it funded by a company who installs real grass fields, or builds indoor grass fields ?

[clenz]

Also, its sad to say this, but at this point you also have to see who funded the turf to cancer connection research. Was it funded by a company who installs real grass fields, or builds indoor grass fields ?
Valid point.

Also why multiple studies are required. It will likely be funded by someone on the other side to get a different result. In the end a third is required by a place in the middle to get the "true" picture...wich then also has to be verified.

[KPSUL]

Wouldn't you think that it would have started to show in people who regularly are getting used engine oil, grease, dirt, rubber, and other assorted things rubbed into busted up knuckles, cuts, and scrapes? Like mechanics nationwide? And honestly how much of those pieces are actually inhaled? It's not a powder. What's so different from letting kids play on rubber mats made from recycled tires? And hazardous waste is a fun term to throw around to scare people. Unfortunately, most people don't realize the majority of people invest things that can be considered hazardous waste every day. Case in point, in college I had to help clean up a wreck from a milk truck. The tanker spilled a full truckload into the ditch. It was considered a hazardous waste contaminated area due to the volume. Most people clean their kitchen areas that they eat off of with things that when being disposed of, are considered hazardous. That term is right up there with the term chemicals. OMG, THERES CHEMICALS IN THAT!!!!! Yeah, dip****, water is a chemical. You are made up of different chemicals. There are just chemicals that are bad for you and chemicals that aren't. But everyone throws that term around like chemicals are the devil. Similar to when they talk about cigarettes and what's in them. Yes, I realize cigarettes are bad, whoever thinks lighting something on fire and breathing the smoke is not going to have at least some likely negative side affects is dumb. I just highly doubt they are taking gallons of rat poison or arsenic or whatever and dumping it into the tobacco before they roll the cigs. I don't doubt that there are things that show up in minute percentages that can be show to be a chemical used in rat poison, ect. But the fear lingering used by different organizations and people is just ridiculous sometimes. Good grief.

/end rant

Suggest you watch this 16 minute clip. it might help you understand the arguments being made on both sides of this issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91svvfuF7iY

[KPSUL]

Also, its sad to say this, but at this point you also have to see who funded the turf to cancer connection research. Was it funded by a company who installs real grass fields, or builds indoor grass fields ?

I suspect that the installation of grass fields is a highly decentralized industry. Highly unlikely they would be funding studies of synthetic turf or crumb rubber. I've never seen an indoor grass field. Is there any, anywhere?

[FormerPokeCenter]

Are the goalies developing blood cancers playing exclusively on artificial turf, or are they also playing on natural grass, where, ostensibly, they're in contact with the pesticides and fertilizers, and in some instances dyes, that are used to keep fields looking green for as long as possible??

[Thumper 76]

Suggest you watch this 16 minute clip. it might help you understand the arguments being made on both sides of this issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91svvfuF7iY

What I saw was exactly what I described. The first scientist says "I think" about five times. They use the buzzword "contains carcinogens" a lot. They show a emotional start and finish with cancer patients. Put a couple cherry picked things in the middle to make it scary, and boom, lots of people watch and talk about it. Am I saying in any way the rubber crumb isn't causing this? No. Not at all, it very well may. However, the film is filled with opinion and not much facts besides the lady being alarmed that their seemed to be a higher rate of soccer goalies with cancer. Even when they interview the former EPA lady the part of her letter they highlight says something interesting right below it. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160411/31104dff1cc764fb920c64ce0f586031.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160411/12be4dcb62b6e46cb47090de81f5d5b6.jpg

Notice right below the highlighted part? It says however sufficient data to quantify toxicological risks from tire crumbs exposure are not available. Basically saying, hey we should look into this. We need more data. Which I support.

Now I do think that the piece does a good job of forcing the EPA to look into it like they should have in the first place, but overall it does exactly what annoys the hell out of me with these sorts of things. Lots of I thinks and using emotional things like cancer to get people excited. But when news is made in order to gain viewership, it gets sensationalized. Same thing with news articles. If it does end up being a thing that causes cancer at a high rate, then it's going to be an absolute mess for everybody.

[bisonguy]

I suspect that the installation of grass fields is a highly decentralized industry. Highly unlikely they would be funding studies of synthetic turf or crumb rubber. I've never seen an indoor grass field. Is there any, anywhere?

Does University of Phoenix stadium count?


The whole scare was probably started to increase the retractable grass field industry's market share.

[KPSUL]

Does University of Phoenix stadium count?


The whole scare was probably started to increase the retractable grass field industry's market share.

no doubt!

[KPSUL]

Are the goalies developing blood cancers playing exclusively on artificial turf, or are they also playing on natural grass, where, ostensibly, they're in contact with the pesticides and fertilizers, and in some instances dyes, that are used to keep fields looking green for as long as possible??

good point!

[YoUDeeMan]

Radio station WLW in Cincinnati talked about it again this past Saturday during the afternoon.

Yes, but what do the experts at WKRP say?

[Boogs]

Yes, but what do the experts at WKRP say?

The WLW folks had a research scientist proposing the scientific method to eliminate certain causes for blood cancers specific in the area of women and artificial blades of grass and its kick-up debris.

Don't you remember the New York Giants and the older turf used in The Meadowlands causing health issues with its players?

The correlation is cause for concern...unless you no longer play or do not have a son/daughter playing sports and you don't care about other people.

[chattownmocs]

If theres a correlation, you certainly haven't began to show it. The alarming thing to me, is that you think the numbers you posted are something to even consider. 38 women 11000 fields. That's not correlation, that is absolutely nothing.

The bare minimum of what you SHOULD need to even start a conversation is this. How many women play/played on these fields? How many of them have these cancers? How many women who didn't play on these fields have the cancers?

[AmsterBison]

The WLW folks had a research scientist proposing the scientific method to eliminate certain causes for blood cancers specific in the area of women and artificial blades of grass and its kick-up debris.

Don't you remember the New York Giants and the older turf used in The Meadowlands causing health issues with its players?

The correlation is cause for concern...unless you no longer play or do not have a son/daughter playing sports and you don't care about other people.

Well, your Meadowlands example is exactly the kind of "let's all panic because anecdotes" hysteria that grips people from time to time. http://www.nytimes.com/1989/07/15/nyregion/athletes-cancers-a-coincidence-study-of-meadowlands-site-finds.html

Obviously, there is concern or they wouldn't be looking into it. However, you are putting the cart before the horse if you want society to take action before the study even starts. Public policy should not be founded on anecdotes and hysteria. If you have a girl playing soccer, I think that I'd be worrying about concussions more so than cancer... if you are looking for things to be worried about, that is.

[KPSUL]

If theres a correlation, you certainly haven't began to show it. The alarming thing to me, is that you think the numbers you posted are something to even consider. 38 women 11000 fields. That's not correlation, that is absolutely nothing.

The bare minimum of what you SHOULD need to even start a conversation is this. How many women play/played on these fields? How many of them have these cancers? How many women who didn't play on these fields have the cancers?

The catalyst behind the women goalies scare is a Seattle based Soccer Coach. She has been discovering and documenting incidences of blood cancers of both male and female only in the Seattle WA area, not nationwide. I assume she has been doing it for several years and at the time they made the E:60 segment, she had a 96, not 36 goalies (not just female) on her list. While even she would indicate her work is not scientific, or conclusively and statistically valid, the numbers make a compelling argument for the people that are getting paid at the EPA and other state and federal environmental and public health agencies to get off their butts and start studying it. It makes no common sense to start tearing out crumb rubber fields on this one bit of compelling but anecdotal evidence. However, it is irresponsible for the public health and environmental public agencies to disregard the current warning of possible public health hazard. I think the thing I found most concerning about this situation, was testimony from former EPA employees that the EPA was an enthusiastic supporter of crumb rubber artificial turf as a means of mitigating another serious environmental problem: huge piles of old tires. That enthusiasm may now be clouding judgment and delaying their willingness to look objectively at the issues being raised.

[walliver]

There's a lot of pseudo-scientific babble going on and very little scientific evidence.
1) There are anecdotal reports of issues with FieldTurf. This does not prove correlation, much less causation. On the other hand, these reports cannot just be ignored because fans love their pretty FieldTurf surfaces
2) There have long been concerns about the long-term effects of inhaled rubber particulates and contaminants. The question is not what happens to an 18 year old player when he turns 19, but will there be effects when he turns 40, and more specifically, how can any study pin down the effects to FieldTurf and exclude other potential causes. The is complicated by the fact that most athletes during their careers (especially at the college and professional levels) will play on both artificial and natural surfaces, so it will be hard to find pure control groups.


FieldTurf has always been a somewhat contentious issue. Numerous studies, many financed by the manufacturer, demonstrate a slightly decreased incidence of knee injuries. Other studies have shown a significantly increased risk of injuries. Scientific research in the 21st century is a big business, and, unfortunately, studies tend to support the position of the entity financing the study.

[JSUSoutherner]

Oh good, another one of these topics.

People who were around "X" got cancer! I think "X" causes cancer!

Did people around "X" get it at a higher rate than the general population?

No! But some got cancer! "X" must cause cancer!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There was a chemical in the news the other day that was being used in farming and that it is also used as a main component in most chemical solutions. It has many affects but has also been known to kill people through excessive exposure.

It's called dihydrogen monoxide.

[walliver]

There was a chemical in the news the other day that was being used in farming and that it is also used as a main component in most chemical solutions. It has many affects but has also been known to kill people through excessive exposure.

It's called dehydrogen monoxide.

I believe you mean dihydrogen monoxide. If it were dehydrogenated, it would either be oxygen or ozone.

[JSUSoutherner]

I believe you mean dihydrogen monoxide. If it were dehydrogenated, it would either be oxygen or ozone.
****ing autocorrect. Yeah that.

[chattownmocs]

The catalyst behind the women goalies scare is a Seattle based Soccer Coach. She has been discovering and documenting incidences of blood cancers of both male and female only in the Seattle WA area, not nationwide. I assume she has been doing it for several years and at the time they made the E:60 segment, she had a 96, not 36 goalies (not just female) on her list. While even she would indicate her work is not scientific, or conclusively and statistically valid, the numbers make a compelling argument for the people that are getting paid at the EPA and other state and federal environmental and public health agencies to get off their butts and start studying it. It makes no common sense to start tearing out crumb rubber fields on this one bit of compelling but anecdotal evidence. However, it is irresponsible for the public health and environmental public agencies to disregard the current warning of possible public health hazard. I think the thing I found most concerning about this situation, was testimony from former EPA employees that the EPA was an enthusiastic supporter of crumb rubber artificial turf as a means of mitigating another serious environmental problem: huge piles of old tires. That enthusiasm may now be clouding judgment and delaying their willingness to look objectively at the issues being raised.

Was the question asked whether something is unique about the conditions for soccer goalies in Seattle, Wa? That would be the place I'd start. I just don't get why the EPA needs to get involved. We don't need a ruling on whether this could hypothetically cause cancer. We simply need to figure out whether it is or is not causing cancer.

[OhioHen]

Was the question asked whether something is unique about the conditions for soccer goalies in Seattle, Wa? That would be the place I'd start. I just don't get why the EPA needs to get involved. We don't need a ruling on whether this could hypothetically cause cancer. We simply need to figure out whether it is or is not causing cancer.

Seattle area residents consume more Starbucks per capita than other locations? Same is true for female soccer goalies in Seattle?

[KPSUL]

Was the question asked whether something is unique about the conditions for soccer goalies in Seattle, Wa? That would be the place I'd start. I just don't get why the EPA needs to get involved. We don't need a ruling on whether this could hypothetically cause cancer. We simply need to figure out whether it is or is not causing cancer.

Discussing an issue like this with you Chattown is like discussing it with Yogi Berra. I can sense there is at least a modicum of wisdom in what you are trying to express, but it is nowhere in plain sight.