Patriot League 2016

[DFW HOYA]

Do do you have a source for St. Francis to the MAAC? I would give that less than a 1% chance of happening. St. Francis is located VERY FAR from other MAAC schools, has a small gym, and a weak basketball program. I don't think there is even a remote chance the MAAC would consider them.

The MAAC isn't that good anymore. Outside of Monmouth and Iona, here's the RPI of the remaining schools:

Siena: 122
Fairfield: 150
St. Peter's: 216
Manhattan: 230
Canisius: 226
Rider: 247
Quinnipiac: 299
Niagara: 318
Marist: 320

(I guess that move to drop MAAC football and focus on big time mid-major basketball didn't pay off as planned.)

[Libertine]

Do do you have a source for St. Francis to the MAAC?

I remember reading that bit in an article but that was several years ago when Monmouth was in flux. I couldn't tell you where it was anymore.

[LeopardBall10]

What an odd twist to have the 2016 PL thread hijacked by the NEC...

[clenz]

The MAAC isn't that good anymore. Outside of Monmouth and Iona, here's the RPI of the remaining schools:

Siena: 122
Fairfield: 150
St. Peter's: 216
Manhattan: 230
Canisius: 226
Rider: 247
Quinnipiac: 299
Niagara: 318
Marist: 320

(I guess that move to drop MAAC football and focus on big time mid-major basketball didn't pay off as planned.)
This is more for another thread, and I may add it to another one but it got me thinking about is being a basketball only school better for the program than having football

Taking out the P5 and top G5 conferences to see what we are looking at when you get to a smaller scale. That leaves 228 school - 103 BB and 115 FB

Average FB RPI was 227
Average BB RPI was 190

Now, that's skewed by how bad the SLC, Big Sky, MEAC and SWAC are in the RPI.

Let's look at the top 100




21
FB


22
BB


29
FB


30
BB


37
BB


38
BB


39
FB


43
FB


44
BB


45
BB


46
BB


47
BB


49
FB


50
FB


52
FB


54
BB


59
FB


61
FB


64
BB


67
FB


68
BB


70
FB


71
BB


75
BB


76
FB


77
BB


79
BB


80
FB


84
BB


85
FB


91
FB


93
BB


95
FB


97
BB


98
BB




That's 19 BB schools and 16 FB schools.

There's next to no real difference at the MM/LM level between having FB and how it affects basketball success that can be directly drawn...HOWEVER..to think what a program like UNI could be if it took FB out of it's budget and added that couple million dollars into it's basketball budget of 2.5m...say to get to about 5.5m...?

The theory behind it makes absolute sense. The practice is what causes the issue. Schools don't take the cost savings of football and put it into basketball. The take the cost savings and pocket it. I'd be curious what the athletic budgets and basketball budgets looked like before/after the MAACs decision.

[Libertine]

What an odd twist to have the 2016 PL thread hijacked by the NEC...

xlolx

[UNHWildcat18]

What an odd twist to have the 2016 PL thread hijacked by the NEC...

Oddly satisfying, seeing as you old farts hijack more threads than anyone else.

[bison137]

The MAAC isn't that good anymore. Outside of Monmouth and Iona, here's the RPI of the remaining schools:

Siena: 122
Fairfield: 150
St. Peter's: 216
Manhattan: 230
Canisius: 226
Rider: 247
Quinnipiac: 299
Niagara: 318
Marist: 320

(I guess that move to drop MAAC football and focus on big time mid-major basketball didn't pay off as planned.)


Leagues go up and down each year - but the MAAC generally has been a good midmajor basketball league for a long time. First of all, the RPI is irrelevant to measuring the strength of most teams or leagues. Using any realistic measure, it has generally been a lot stronger than the PL, NEC, or AE. Has gone back and forth with the Ivy - but that is due to major Ivy improvement as financial aid has become so much more generous.

Over the past decade, The MAAC' s ranking, relative to the 32-33 D1 conferences, has been (starting with 2007 and working forward):

26
16
15
15
18
20
13
13
19
21

For a midmajor conference, ranking in the mid-teens is quite good. During that time, the PL has averaged 22-23, AE has been about #27 on average, and the NECabout #25 (but worse lately and unlikely to get better). The Ivy's typically ranked about #23 6-10 years ago, but have been around #16 for the past five years.

As as for MAAC football, that died a natural death that had little to do with the conference and nothing to do with a desire to 'focus on big-time basketball". The MAAC Has always been a basketball conference - and that is where its focus has always been. Perhaps Georgetown, being a football-only member, didn't understand this. However all of the MAAC members have always been much more focused on hoops.

[bison137]

I remember reading that bit in an article but that was several years ago when Monmouth was in flux. I couldn't tell you where it was anymore.


whoever wrote the article had his facts mixed up. The MAAC had no interest in St. Francis, and St. Francis had no interest in pursuing a move.

[RichH2]

Oddly satisfying, seeing as you old farts hijack more threads than anyone else.
And damn proud of it :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As as for MAAC football, that died a natural death that had little to do with the conference and nothing to do with a desire to 'focus on big-time basketball". The MAAC Has always been a basketball conference - and that is where its focus has always been. Perhaps Georgetown, being a football-only member, didn't understand this. However all of the MAAC members have always been much more focused on hoops.

I disagree. I think in the early days the idea was that football was necessary, even at the non-scholarship FCS level, to preserve their hoops cachet. They wanted to inhabit the same place as Dayton, Butler, etc. as having a "full" sports program but with a Grade A hoops program. For a while, a majority of schools thought that to be the case, but one by one, all saw it as simply a financial burden (except for Marist).

I don't disagree that the MAAC schools' top priority was hoops, but what I think you're missing is FCS football's place in that.

[DFW HOYA]

I disagree. I think in the early days the idea was that football was necessary, even at the non-scholarship FCS level, to preserve their hoops cachet. They wanted to inhabit the same place as Dayton, Butler, etc. as having a "full" sports program but with a Grade A hoops program. For a while, a majority of schools thought that to be the case, but one by one, all saw it as simply a financial burden (except for Marist).

I seem to recall that the MAAC office had made it clear to its member schools that football was not going to be part of its future. (It probably didn't help that MAAC football at that time was dominated by a Duquesne team which was football-only.) Why else would Fairfield, a school that was investing in football (and may have eventually joined the PL if it had football) suddenly reverse course in 2003?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I seem to recall that the MAAC office had made it clear to its member schools that football was not going to be part of its future. (It probably didn't help that MAAC football at that time was dominated by a Duquesne team which was football-only.) Why else would Fairfield, a school that was investing in football (and may have eventually joined the PL if it had football) suddenly reverse course in 2003?

You bring up another good point. I had heard somewhere on my travels that Fairfield had some feelers out for Patriot League membership at one time. However, they were interested in a "non-scholarship" Patriot League - they had no interest in offering scholarships for football. The MAAC may have seen themselves in a bad position. They didn't want to create a farm team for a conference like the Patriot League or what would become the CAA (and, in fact, that's what they ended up being to Georgetown).

Also worthy of mention, at the time the NEC had a similar aid model as the MAAC, but at some point the NEC went away from that and became limited scholarship. To some in the MAAC, it looked a lot like their non-scholarship model had a dwindling number of followers while the NEC and Patriot league headed towards different levels of scholarships.

[bison137]

I disagree. I think in the early days the idea was that football was necessary, even at the non-scholarship FCS level, to preserve their hoops cachet. They wanted to inhabit the same place as Dayton, Butler, etc. as having a "full" sports program but with a Grade A hoops program. For a while, a majority of schools thought that to be the case, but one by one, all saw it as simply a financial burden (except for Marist).

I don't disagree that the MAAC schools' top priority was hoops, but what I think you're missing is FCS football's place in that.


The MAAC had been in existence for 15 years before it added football, and it had done quite well. By the time the league added football, it had been a two-bid league in basketball at least twice and MAAC teams had won a couple of games in the NCAA tournament. Also had produced a 1st-team All-American. I don't think adding weak, non-scholarship football that was really D3 added anything to the league's cachet at all.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The MAAC had been in existence for 15 years before it added football, and it had done quite well. By the time the league added football, it had been a two-bid league in basketball at least twice and MAAC teams had won a couple of games in the NCAA tournament. Also had produced a 1st-team All-American. I don't think adding weak, non-scholarship football that was really D3 added anything to the league's cachet at all.

MAAC football actually was on ESPN (before ESPN was ESPN) and seemed to have members that were at least interested in seeing where it all could go, at least initially is my impression. Eventually things changed and it made less sense to pursue it.

St Peter's had literally a few wealthy alumni that were sponsoring the sport, defying all logic and expectations. The school was paying to rent a municipal stadium, and very few people had even heard of the program. Frequently, if memory serves, they had to play Friday nights because Saturday had important high school football games to play. When the last benefactor died, the president pulled the plug on the endeavor in fairly short order. That benefactor was one of those "see where it could all go" folks, and when they passed away/moved on, St. Peter's wisely decided to move on.

It was St. Peter's decision which was the final death blow to the MAAC, I believe. Iona soldiered on another year before deciding that they simply couldn't survive as an independent. Marist joined the PFL, Duquesne went to the NEC, and LaSalle dropped their program as well.

[ngineer]

This thread is still meandering through the MAAC?? Seems to be trending as the new "Lafayette at New Hampshire" thread of 2014.

[DFW HOYA]

Now that College of Faith is no longer an option for Davidson, Georgetown is back on the Wildcats' schedule.

Georgetown remains far too conservative in scheduling for me but when you look at a potential 0-6 in PL play every year, maybe you take what you can get.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/georgetown-to-host-six-in-2016-033116

[Go...gate]

Now that College of Faith is no longer an option for Davidson, Georgetown is back on the Wildcats' schedule.

Georgetown remains far too conservative in scheduling for me but when you look at a potential 0-6 in PL play every year, maybe you take what you can get.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/georgetown-to-host-six-in-2016-033116

That is a fine schedule, DFW Hoya!

[LeopardBall10]

That is a fine schedule, DFW Hoya!

I agree, 11 games, 6 at home, and the Ivies you want. After the Lafayette debacle last year and the absolutly brutal schedule this year the Hoya 2016 schedule is looking better and better.

[CFBfan]

I agree, 11 games, 6 at home, and the Ivies you want. After the Lafayette debacle last year and the absolutly brutal schedule this year the Hoya 2016 schedule is looking better and better.

looks a lot better than PL champ Gate who has just a 10 game slate with only 4 at home

[DFW HOYA]

I agree, 11 games, 6 at home, and the Ivies you want. After the Lafayette debacle last year and the absolutly brutal schedule this year the Hoya 2016 schedule is looking better and better.

Or how about replacing Davidson and Marist with Navy and Villanova. Yes, it's aspirational, but Georgetown has got to start being visible to opponents that will attract student and local interest. It's not a good sign when, 52 years after reviving football, many people don't even know it exists.

(That, and being more competitive despite the scholarship firewall around the program.)

[van]

Or how about replacing Davidson and Marist with Navy and Villanova. Yes, it's aspirational, but Georgetown has got to start being visible to opponents that will attract student and local interest. It's not a good sign when, 52 years after reviving football, many people don't even know it exists.

(That, and being more competitive despite the scholarship firewall around the program.)

not gonna get Navy if you are not bowl counter

[DFW HOYA]

not gonna get Navy if you are not bowl counter

Georgetown can't even get Howard to play them anymore.

[Franks Tanks]

Or how about replacing Davidson and Marist with Navy and Villanova. Yes, it's aspirational, but Georgetown has got to start being visible to opponents that will attract student and local interest. It's not a good sign when, 52 years after reviving football, many people don't even know it exists.

(That, and being more competitive despite the scholarship firewall around the program.)

I watched the Big East 30 for 30 again the other day. At one point they are discussing additions to the conference to appease the football playing members, and the former Georgetown AD (the Italian guy) said something to the effect of "Football?, Why should I care about Football?" Yes, his feeling were clear.

Then again my school continues to lose to Georgetown in football, so I will go sit in the corner.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Georgetown can't even get Howard to play them anymore.

Not for lack of trying. G'Town/Howard would seem like it's a slam-dunk but for a variety of reasons it never was, though (mostly G'Town, is my understanding) tried.

Now that Howard and the MEAC are further distancing themselves from the rest of FCS it makes even less sense.

Too bad a school like St. John's wouldn't consider heading to the PL as an associate member in football. Something like that I think would help G'Town get some interest going.

They used to play here:

http://www.redstormsports.com/facilities/stjo-dasilva-field.html

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/stjo/sports/m-lacros/auto_indexwide/5712059.jpeg

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think discussions about defunct programs and defunct MAAC football are still relevant because the demise of MAAC football has made it more difficult to look for a "farm team" of schools that could join the PL as football-only or all-sports members with football. That's especially relevant because our last football-playing expansion (G'Town) and one of our last two all-sports memberships (Loyola) have involved the MAAC.

Right now the "expansion farm team" of schools for D-I programs within reasonable distance of other PL schools are... Marist, Bryant, and (debatably, now that they're in the Big South in football) Monmouth. Two MAAC schools and one NEC school. There are a lot of Northeast schools with football history that could, under the right circumstances, consider picking up football again (BU, Loyola, St. John's, perhaps Manhattan). Two of them are already PL members and even have venues to play right away. But right now there's little to no interest, mostly due to sudden extra concern over head injuries.

[DFW HOYA]

Not for lack of trying. G'Town/Howard would seem like it's a slam-dunk but for a variety of reasons it never was, though (mostly G'Town, is my understanding) tried. Now that Howard and the MEAC are further distancing themselves from the rest of FCS it makes even less sense.

Without getting into political discussions, there is a faction that wants Howard to maintain its preeminence in the HBCU community by focusing on games with other HBCU's, even D-II schools such as Morehouse. Playing a non-HBCU with little local interest did not serve this argument.

Granted, Howard doesn't exclusively pay HBCU's (they played BC and App State last season and Rutgers in 2015), but those games came with guarantee money.

[LUHawker]

Too bad a school like St. John's wouldn't consider heading to the PL as an associate member in football. Something like that I think would help G'Town get some interest going.

They used to play here:

http://www.redstormsports.com/facilities/stjo-dasilva-field.html

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/stjo/sports/m-lacros/auto_indexwide/5712059.jpeg

Seriously Chuck, St. John's for PL football?!! Please stop with that silliness. We all know you want to add another team, and unfortunately, you'll take practically ANY team, but St. John's is a preposterous idea, even coming from you!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Seriously Chuck, St. John's for PL football?!! Please stop with that silliness. We all know you want to add another team, and unfortunately, you'll take practically ANY team, but St. John's is a preposterous idea, even coming from you!

IMVHO, nothing would be better than BU reinstating FCS football, with Loyola a close second. But that is unlikely to happen. After that, as I mentioned above, there is a real dearth of "farm team" and/or realistic options.

I wrote this a year ago, and it pretty much still sums up my view:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/06/why-dont-loyola-u-and-boston-u-sponsor.html

And:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/06/freeuab-worked-would-freebu-have-too.html

[DFW HOYA]

Seriously Chuck, St. John's for PL football?!! Please stop with that silliness. We all know you want to add another team, and unfortunately, you'll take practically ANY team, but St. John's is a preposterous idea, even coming from you!

Pros:
1. SJ has the budget for football;
2. It was interested in scholarship football when it joined the NEC, then the roof fell in;
3. Good regional fit

Cons:
1. PL membership doesn't offer a value-add for St. John's - no peer institutions
2. AI would be difficult given SJ's declining SAT range (middle 50% 970-1200)
3. "60 scholarships or else" not a compelling message for new entrants

[Lehigh Football Nation]

3. "60 scholarships or else" not a compelling message for new entrants

I agree, which is why the MAAC discussion is still relevant. The MAAC provided a "well, start out with us non-scholarship. Then, if you want, there are a variety of options, like the NEC for limited scholarship, or the PL, for 60 high-academic scholarships." Nowadays, that method can only be done in the far-flung PFL with all that travel, or going directly to NEC or PL scholarship levels. And if you're a large public, you'd probably head to the CAA or Big South first anyway.

[Go...gate]

looks a lot better than PL champ Gate who has just a 10 game slate with only 4 at home

Still scratching my head over this, though back when I was there, we only played two or three home games in a nine or ten game season.

[Sader87]

The PL does not need any new football membahs....7 is plenty.....love the latitude it gives for OOC games (Ivies, CAA's and FBS games).

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The PL does not need any new football membahs....7 is plenty.....love the latitude it gives for OOC games (Ivies, CAA's and FBS games).

I would agree with you if Georgetown was a stable program. I don't see them leaving in the immediate future but I'm also not naïve to their issues. If the perfect candidate arose then an 8 team conference with 4 OOC games is still pretty enticing. I do love the 5 OOC games though. I like to see Lehigh play 2, maybe 3, Ivies a year so 6 conference games allows for some real flexibility.

[Bill]

LFN

I apologize if you've answered this before...but why are you so into discussing who would be good fits for the Patriot League in football? It just seems strange that you consistently make a case for schools that are not remotely close academic fits for the PL...I realize we can (OK, I can :) ) be just as snotty as our we-wish-we-were-ivy brethren, but we have little in common with many of these schools.
Not meant to be an attack, just wondering.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN

I apologize if you've answered this before...but why are you so into discussing who would be good fits for the Patriot League in football? It just seems strange that you consistently make a case for schools that are not remotely close academic fits for the PL...I realize we can (OK, I can :) ) be just as snotty as our we-wish-we-were-ivy brethren, but we have little in common with many of these schools.
Not meant to be an attack, just wondering.

1. In order to survive and thrive, a modern football conference, IMO, needs at least nine members (enough for 8 conference games and 3 OOC). When you're at seven, like the PL is currently, you are constantly at risk for losing your autobid (see: Big South) and at risk for having incomplete schedules (see: Colgate) to fill out a full OOC schedule. OOC games are easy to find in September; November, not so much.

2. The PL is not the Ivy League. There is more of a risk of the PL losing members than the IL, especially in football because two of the members are associate members. There is lots more holding Cornell to the Ivy League (all those sports) than what is holding, say, Fordham (only football) in the Patriot League. If the PL lost both of their associate members for any reason, there would be a great risk of the conference losing football.

3. There are a dearth of great candidates to become PL members. Conference membership is driven, generally, from aspirations of schools that wish to think like they are growing or expanding. That's why Richmond reacted so violently when their president discussed possible membership; to the athletes and fans, it was seen as a capitulation, as if they couldn't compete in the A-10/CAA anymore. If you exclude schools from the CAA that all would invariably feel that way, you are left with schools that are aspirational, and most schools that aspire to be a part of the Patriot League can be summed up as "pretty good schools that want to get to the PL level academically". I feel it hugely important that the PL folks not look at where a institution is now academically, but where they want to be.

4. There are not an insignificant number of high-academic D-III schools that could possibly be a great fit for the PL. However, the divisional transition process as stands today requires that such schools go to D-II and then D-I, which ensures that it would take a decade or more for, say, MIT are as NESCAC member to become a full member of the PL. This seriously narrows the potential candidate pool.

[RichH2]

Expansion. Summer must be coming :)
The ins and outs of expansion have been exhaustively analyzed here.
Joe Sterrett highlighted the necessity of adding at least one football member in the context of OOC scheduling. He noted that it is extremely difficult to schedule 5 games annually .

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Expansion. Summer must be coming :)
The ins and outs of expansion have been exhaustively analyzed here.
Joe Sterrett highlighted the necessity of adding at least one football member in the context of OOC scheduling. He noted that it is extremely difficult to schedule 5 games annually .

Broadly I agree with Joe Sterrett. Taking it a step further, the absolute best thing for the league would be for Loyola or BU (ideally both) to restart football, giving the league 6 or 7 all-sports members that play football. It would be a tremendous insurance policy in regards to ensuring Patriot League football.

[bison137]

Pros:

3. "60 scholarships or else" not a compelling message for new entrants



That is clearly not a PL rule - and not all PL scholarship schools are going to have 60.

[RichH2]

That is clearly not a PL rule - and not all PL scholarship schools are going to have 60.
DFW's "or else" merely his way of bemoaning his Hoya's plight. Ignoring the fact that the PL is not the cause of their situation.

[DFW HOYA]

That is clearly not a PL rule - and not all PL scholarship schools are going to have 60.

No, it's not a rule, we know that. From a practical consideration, however, it's going to be a tough sell for any team not committed to significant scholarship spending (however one defines that) to want to join the PL and be fully competitive for championships in it.


DFW's "or else" merely his way of bemoaning his Hoya's plight. Ignoring the fact that the PL is not the cause of their situation.

Would be curious as to your opinion of what this cause is.

[RichH2]

No, it's not a rule, we know that. From a practical consideration, however, it's going to be a tough sell for any team not committed to significant scholarship spending (however one defines that) to want to join the PL and be fully competitive for championships in it.



Would be curious as to your opinion of what this cause is.

GU cant or wont fund football. PL decided to improve its football by extending athletic aid to all sports. GU free to do as it decides. The issue is not philosophical but financial. Hoya"s plight is not a punishment inflicted by the PL. A GU team with even 40 equivalencies would be a real factor in PL. It is up to GU to suppott football . To imply that PL should act to protect GU by restricting all the other members who want athletic aid is nonsensical.

[Go...gate]

Maybe the answer is, in fact, that PL Football is going to be an "Iron Six" much as the Yankee Conference was for many years. Georgetown will also remain, but on their own terms.

[RichH2]

Maybe the answer is, in fact, that PL Football is going to be an "Iron Six" much as the Yankee Conference was for many years. Georgetown will also remain, but on their own terms.
Likely the scenario for the foreseeable future. Like the concept of Iron Six. We should probably update it tho. The Graphene Six? The Titanium Six? :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Maybe the answer is, in fact, that PL Football is going to be an "Iron Six" much as the Yankee Conference was for many years. Georgetown will also remain, but on their own terms.

The problem with this analogy is that Fordham is an associate member, and an "Iron Five" doesn't work. Hence my comment on the best possible outcome for the league is BU and/or Loyola sponsoring football. Seven all-sports members playing football would be very stable football-wise.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The problem with this analogy is that Fordham is an associate member, and an "Iron Five" doesn't work. Hence my comment on the best possible outcome for the league is BU and/or Loyola sponsoring football. Seven all-sports members playing football would be very stable football-wise.

Glad to see that those of us shooting down your America East Football proposals because they were based on too many associate members have sunk in!

Totally hypothetical, but what if JMU does finally go FBS and the CAA settles in on a Southern Division of Elon, W&M, Richmond, Towson, Delaware and Villanova. They seek an addition to join Maine, UNH, Rhode Island, Albany and Stony Brook in the Northern Division. Who would the candidates be? I'd say Fordham, Monmouth, Central CT, Bryant, Sacred Heart and Wagner. Arguably, the Rams would be the leading candidate. Would Fordham be loyal to the Patriot if the CAA came calling? I have no idea, just saying one can't assume that associate member Fordham is part of an "Iron Six".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Apropos of nothing, I was thinking a coalition of Lafayette, Columbia, Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams and Wellesley might be considered the "(Bernie) Sanders Six"

[LUHawker]

Glad to see that those of us shooting down your America East Football proposals because they were based on too many associate members have sunk in!

Totally hypothetical, but what if JMU does finally go FBS and the CAA settles in on a Southern Division of Elon, W&M, Richmond, Towson, Delaware and Villanova. They seek an addition to join Maine, UNH, Rhode Island, Albany and Stony Brook in the Northern Division. Who would the candidates be? I'd say Fordham, Monmouth, Central CT, Bryant, Sacred Heart and Wagner. Arguably, the Rams would be the leading candidate. Would Fordham be loyal to the Patriot if the CAA came calling? I have no idea, just saying one can't assume that associate member Fordham is part of an "Iron Six".

LFN, not entirely unjustifiably, worries of the PL losing two associate members and therefore falling below the minimum 6 teams needed to maintain the automatic playoff bid. While there might be cause for concern surrounding a G'Town exit, I think the evidence suggests that Fordham wants to and is going to remain in the PL. Why do I state this? Several reasons:

1. Fordham has been very long-standing associate member
2. FU could have bolted several years ago when the go, no-go on scholarships was in the balance. They could have bolted after being initially jilted following the changes to the AI, then again as the league dithered in making its decision to finally go scholarship or even after the decision was made and FU was treated as ineligible for the auto-bid and several other awards. This to me is really the key evidence as FU has been on the journey with the PL throughout, even being the catalyst to push the league to a scholarship one. Why would they now leave just as the PL is hitting full-scholarship ramp (GU excluded) and the league is ostensibly poised for improvement??
3. FU likes the company it keeps here.
4. The geographic profile is attractive. FU, along with LU and LC are most centrally positioned among league members for games.
5. If, and it is a big IF, Villanova were to ever join the PL for football, FU would be part of an attractive 4-member Catholic sub-division. Even without such a turn of events, scheduling flexibility has given FU the opportunity to regularly schedule VU and others like Army.

I think the PL is relatively secure in its "Iron Six" position.

I see little risk of FU bolting for the door. If anything, I think the likelihood of FU returning to the PL for all sports (after leaving in ~1994) is higher than them departing for football.

[Fordham]

Glad to see that those of us shooting down your America East Football proposals because they were based on too many associate members have sunk in!

Totally hypothetical, but what if JMU does finally go FBS and the CAA settles in on a Southern Division of Elon, W&M, Richmond, Towson, Delaware and Villanova. They seek an addition to join Maine, UNH, Rhode Island, Albany and Stony Brook in the Northern Division. Who would the candidates be? I'd say Fordham, Monmouth, Central CT, Bryant, Sacred Heart and Wagner. Arguably, the Rams would be the leading candidate. Would Fordham be loyal to the Patriot if the CAA came calling? I have no idea, just saying one can't assume that associate member Fordham is part of an "Iron Six".

Hawker nailed it imo. We are very happy in the PL and intend to stay

[RichH2]

LFN, not entirely unjustifiably, worries of the PL losing two associate members and therefore falling below the minimum 6 teams needed to maintain the automatic playoff bid. While there might be cause for concern surrounding a G'Town exit, I think the evidence suggests that Fordham wants to and is going to remain in the PL. Why do I state this? Several reasons:

1. Fordham has been very long-standing associate member
2. FU could have bolted several years ago when the go, no-go on scholarships was in the balance. They could have bolted after being initially jilted following the changes to the AI, then again as the league dithered in making its decision to finally go scholarship or even after the decision was made and FU was treated as ineligible for the auto-bid and several other awards. This to me is really the key evidence as FU has been on the journey with the PL throughout, even being the catalyst to push the league to a scholarship one. Why would they now leave just as the PL is hitting full-scholarship ramp (GU excluded) and the league is ostensibly poised for improvement??
3. FU likes the company it keeps here.
4. The geographic profile is attractive. FU, along with LU and LC are most centrally positioned among league members for games.
5. If, and it is a big IF, Villanova were to ever join the PL for football, FU would be part of an attractive 4-member Catholic sub-division. Even without such a turn of events, scheduling flexibility has given FU the opportunity to regularly schedule VU and others like Army.

I think the PL is relatively secure in its "Iron Six" position.

I see little risk of FU bolting for the door. If anything, I think the likelihood of FU returning to the PL for all sports (after leaving in ~1994) is higher than them departing for football.

+1 Well said. LFN's concerns are well founded if hopefully premature. The tremors in the FCS landscape.have eased for now. I expect as the P5 solidifies its control of the money we will see some borderline FBS programs coming back and we will see some more reshuffling of conferences. Mostly out West and South. If it expands to the NE, LFN"s concerns may bear fruit.

[UNHWildcat18]

Glad to see that those of us shooting down your America East Football proposals because they were based on too many associate members have sunk in!

Totally hypothetical, but what if JMU does finally go FBS and the CAA settles in on a Southern Division of Elon, W&M, Richmond, Towson, Delaware and Villanova. They seek an addition to join Maine, UNH, Rhode Island, Albany and Stony Brook in the Northern Division. Who would the candidates be? I'd say Fordham, Monmouth, Central CT, Bryant, Sacred Heart and Wagner. Arguably, the Rams would be the leading candidate. Would Fordham be loyal to the Patriot if the CAA came calling? I have no idea, just saying one can't assume that associate member Fordham is part of an "Iron Six".

Personally I don't see any of those teams. Monmouth too small of a stadium that will never get bigger. Fordham not leaving the PL also has a Tiny stadium not likely to change. CCSU has a larger (ugly) venue but I don't see the investment to 63 happening. Bryant if they expand would be my choice. One end zone is a new gym facility, soon to have full size IPF. If they mirrored their home side on the away and went to 63, that would probably be the most attractive school. The CAA won't split into a northern and southern Division officially. Even if JMU ditches we won't be in a hurry to replace them. Sacred Heart and Wagner just make me chuckle. While I agree you can't call them and Iron six officially, they aren't going anywhere. wish UMASS still had FCS football, but hey if they did we'd probably just have America East football by now :D

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Wasn't insinuating that they were all feasible options, just that they were probably the only options available in the Northeast because there doesn't appear to any more upgrades from D-II that play football. Bryant needs more capacity on the visitor's side just like Monmouth but a better chance to actually build them.

Not sure why you think the CAA won't split into divisions when it was that way for years??? IMO, we need the defined schedule rotation that divisions would provide.

[UNHWildcat18]

I know you weren't insinuating, also we have 12 teams, they would have already if they really wanted to IMO. I agree about the scheduling though its annoying how UNH hasn't played a lot of the southern teams in the past few years. I have to admit im slightly jealous that the PL gets to play more OOC games.

[Sader87]

I know you weren't insinuating, also we have 12 teams, they would have already if they really wanted to IMO. I agree about the scheduling though its annoying how UNH hasn't played a lot of the southern teams in the past few years. I have to admit im slightly jealous that the PL gets to play more OOC games.

As I've stated before, this is one of the best things about PL football.....allows HC to play Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, UNH and BC in a season as it will in 2018.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wasn't insinuating that they were all feasible options, just that they were probably the only options available in the Northeast because there doesn't appear to any more upgrades from D-II that play football. Bryant needs more capacity on the visitor's side just like Monmouth but a better chance to actually build them.

Not sure why you think the CAA won't split into divisions when it was that way for years??? IMO, we need the defined schedule rotation that divisions would provide.

On the call-ups thread I listed a whole lot of not-so-great options - Bentley, New Haven, LIU-C.W. Post among them. LIU-C.W. Post seems like a fairly remote option now with Stony Brook in town. Bentley could sort-of be a dark horse PL option, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Sader87]

There is no need for PL expansion in football......end of discussion.

I'd rather go to 4 PL games and 7 OOC games with no playoffs. Wouldn't mind at all.

[Go...gate]

The problem with this analogy is that Fordham is an associate member, and an "Iron Five" doesn't work. Hence my comment on the best possible outcome for the league is BU and/or Loyola sponsoring football. Seven all-sports members playing football would be very stable football-wise.

I don't see Fordham leaving now that the scholarship issue is resolved.

[van]

There is no need for PL expansion in football......end of discussion.

I'd rather go to 4 PL games and 7 OOC games with no playoffs. Wouldn't mind at all.

As often as you guys go to playoffs, I can see that.

[Go...gate]

As often as you guys go to playoffs, I can see that.

????????????????????

The PL has had an auto-bid since 1997 and had two playoff teams in 2015, including a quarterfinalist.

[DFW HOYA]

As I've stated before, this is one of the best things about PL football.....allows HC to play Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, UNH and BC in a season as it will in 2018.

As opposed to can't miss opponents like like Davidson, Marist, and St. Francis?

[CFBfan]

As often as you guys go to playoffs, I can see that.

that's great! well played van

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

????????????????????

The PL has had an auto-bid since 1997 and had two playoff teams in 2015, including a quarterfinalist.

Since HC has only made the playoffs once during the PL era electing to sit them out wouldn't really change much in Crusader land...

Lehigh needs to get back this year! I love the playoffs. I firmly believe Frisco is an obtainable goal....

[Gangtackle11]

Since HC has only made the playoffs once during the PL era electing to sit them out wouldn't really change much in Crusader land...

Lehigh needs to get back this year! I love the playoffs. I firmly believe Frisco is an obtainable goal....

As long as you can avoid a trip to Fargo!

[clenz]

As often as you guys go to playoffs, I can see that.
https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/60726641.jpg

[Sader87]

Seeing that HC was non-scholarship from 1992-2012 (and not playoff eligible from 1986-1991), it's hardly surprising we weren't in either the play-offs and/or national title mix during that era.

It's really not a case of "sour-grapes" though...the FCS playoffs really mean very little to me ultimately.....again, my belief/opinion....rather have a meaningful regulah season against like-minded schools (PL, Ivies, CAA's and the Army's and BC's of the world) and end it in late Novembah than play a lot of the directional schools across the country during Decembah.

[LUHawker]

Seeing that HC was non-scholarship from 1992-2012 (and not playoff eligible from 1986-1991), it's hardly surprising we weren't in either the play-offs and/or national title mix during that era.


Come on Sader. You state this as if Holy Cross was the only PL school that was somehow saddled with these conditions. Specious comment here - you can (and usually) do better. Your entitled to your preference regarding interest in the playoffs, but I suspect you are in the decided majority of fans and players.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross was the only PL program that dropped a full scholarship football team in 1986....it nevah really recovered.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Holy Cross was the only PL program that dropped a full scholarship football team in 1986....it nevah really recovered.

And Lehigh played for two national titles within the decade that predated the PL's formation. There's no doubt that Lehigh's program suffered too in the mid to late 80's. Likewise with Colgate.....

Those programs were able to recover by the late 90's due to institutional commitment. Holy Cross on the other hand continues to live in the land of mediocrity for what's going on 2.5 decades....

[Sader87]

Holy Cross was playing at a higher level than Lehigh before the Patriot League was formed, Lehigh was used to playing at this lower level....we nevah found a way to play/be competitive at a non-scholarship level.

[CFBfan]

Holy Cross was playing at a higher level than Lehigh before the Patriot League was formed, Lehigh was used to playing at this lower level....we nevah found a way to play/be competitive at a non-scholarship level.

if you keep gilmore on your sideline you never will (imo)

[DFW HOYA]

if you keep gilmore on your sideline you never will

At some point you can't blame Gilmore for the state of HC football. Since 1992, the Crusaders are 107-161 (.399) and the school has settled into a comfort zone where 5-6 is acceptable.

Then again, this is the Patriot League, where four of the six returning coaches have a career record under .500.

[PAllen]

At some point you can't blame Gilmore for the state of HC football. Since 1992, the Crusaders are 107-161 (.399) and the school has settled into a comfort zone where 5-6 is acceptable.

Then again, this is the Patriot League, where four of the six returning coaches have a career record under .500.

Heck, this is the PL where 5-6 gets you a share of the league title more often than not.

[Sader87]

At some point you can't blame Gilmore for the state of HC football. Since 1992, the Crusaders are 107-161 (.399) and the school has settled into a comfort zone where 5-6 is acceptable.

Then again, this is the Patriot League, where four of the six returning coaches have a career record under .500.

Agreed... the football program basically "bottomed out" when HC dropped scholarships. Along with other unfortunate events (Dan Allen's sickness/death), possibly questionable hires, lack of support from the school, alums, community etc etc allowed for HC football nevah to get traction for most of the 1992-2012 time period (save for the Dom Randolph years).

The next couple of years are vitally important to get the program back on track imo.

[KPSUL]

Agreed... the football program basically "bottomed out" when HC dropped scholarships. Along with other unfortunate events (Dan Allen's sickness/death), possibly questionable hires, lack of support from the school, alums, community etc etc allowed for HC football nevah to get traction for most of the 1992-2012 time period (save for the Dom Randolph years).

The next couple of years are vitally important to get the program back on track imo.

Here's hoping that the Crusader's start getting back on a winning track on September 11th, right after UNH's home opener in the new stadium. How'd you guys end up with 7 away games and only 4 home on the 2016 schedule? And that's without an FBS team on the schedule.

[DFW HOYA]

Six of the seven PL teams will tell you that scholarships will have them back on track, with national rankings, playoffs, etc. Sheer math suggests that won't happen to more than one or two of them, and a third every few years or so. Is HC really positioning itself for that top tier, or are they simply spending $4M a year to have a seat in the table alongside Georgetown?

[LUHawker]

Six of the seven PL teams will tell you that scholarships will have them back on track, with national rankings, playoffs, etc. Sheer math suggests that won't happen to more than one or two of them, and a third every few years or so. Is HC really positioning itself for that top tier, or are they simply spending $4M a year to have a seat in the table alongside Georgetown?

That is a very insightful comment. History says its more of the latter, but many a HC fan (on their board) seem to think that HC is best positioned to succeed in the scholarship era.

[Sader87]

Here's hoping that the Crusader's start getting back on a winning track on September 11th, right after UNH's home opener in the new stadium. How'd you guys end up with 7 away games and only 4 home on the 2016 schedule? And that's without an FBS team on the schedule.

Makes very little sense geograpically, but the "home" Fordham game was moved from Fitton to Yankee Stadium...HC will technically be the home team against Fordham in da Bronx xrotatehx

[RichH2]

Schollies are a mixed blessing. Agree with DFW's comment. Transition has been a learning process in schollie recruiting. The talent levels have improved.with fewer misses than in the first class. How has Cross fared in this rising tide. Well better than before but not as well as others. IMO, too many misses in their first couple of classes. Gilmore has improvedcmarkedly with recent classes. One constant throughout his career, his teams are very well coached. Biggest lack up until last year was team speed.
Only way to know for sure is how we do in our OOC games.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Holy Cross to me is a big wild card in next year's race. They have a candidate for the preseason POY on offense, and have some studs in prior classes coming up the pike on defense. They had Colgate on the ropes before falling late, and came within a whisker of beating Fordham. They beat Lafayette, G'Town, and Bucknell handily. It's not that hard to envision them getting it all together and winning the league next season.

[LUHawker]

Holy Cross to me is a big wild card in next year's race. They have a candidate for the preseason POY on offense, and have some studs in prior classes coming up the pike on defense. They had Colgate on the ropes before falling late, and came within a whisker of beating Fordham. They beat Lafayette, G'Town, and Bucknell handily. It's not that hard to envision them getting it all together and winning the league next season.

I don't see it. They are not tops on O nor on D and haven't shown team consistency for several years now. HC has been a story of having been a few players short of putting it together and even with better classes, they are probably still a year or two away.

[Franks Tanks]

Six of the seven PL teams will tell you that scholarships will have them back on track, with national rankings, playoffs, etc. Sheer math suggests that won't happen to more than one or two of them, and a third every few years or so. Is HC really positioning itself for that top tier, or are they simply spending $4M a year to have a seat in the table alongside Georgetown?


We could spend 4 million a year and get crushed by the Ivies and CAA, or spend 4 million a year and be competitive. It also allows us to play games against old rivals like Syracuse and BC, and games like Army. Holy Cross may lose to BC by 5 TD's, but many old alums will be watching with an ear to ear smile.


Agree that 1 or 2 teams per year at most will be top 25 material, but that is ok.

[Go Green]

Holy Cross may lose to BC by 5 TD's, but many old alums will be watching with an ear to ear smile.



Please get a picture of the alums smiling when it's 35-0.

[Franks Tanks]

Please get a picture of the alums smiling when it's 35-0.

For at least the 1st year I think they will be very happy just to see HC and BC on the same field. The way BC has been going lately, the game may be competitive however!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For at least the 1st year I think they will be very happy just to see HC and BC on the same field. The way BC has been going lately, the game may be competitive however!

With the possible exception of UConn, BC's has been realignmentaggeddon's biggest loser.

Hey - maybe UConn and BC should start their own conference.

[DFW HOYA]

With the possible exception of UConn, BC's has been realignmentaggeddon's biggest loser.


Winners:
1. Texas Christian
2. Louisville
3. Texas A&M
4. Missouri
5. Virginia Tech

Losers:
1. Connecticut
2. West Virginia
3. Boston College
4. Colorado
5. Southern Methodist

[RichH2]

Will be an interesting season. Cross could indeed be a wild card in our QB centric conference. If not this year it may be a while til they are in the hunt. None of the schollie teams can be discounted. All have gaps and strengths. How well the various coaches deal with last season's weaknesses will tell the tale.

[Fordham]

Six of the seven PL teams will tell you that scholarships will have them back on track, with national rankings, playoffs, etc. Sheer math suggests that won't happen to more than one or two of them, and a third every few years or so. Is HC really positioning itself for that top tier, or are they simply spending $4M a year to have a seat in the table alongside Georgetown?

It's a good point but my take is that without scholarships it is extremely more difficult/challenging to break through with a top 20 team. It's not impossible but just very difficult. With scholarships there are still challenges, particularly if coaching/recruiting is sub par. The difference is that a program that may be floundering while still offering scholarships can turn things around fairly quickly by changing their staff if they're so inclined. People question whether or not HC or Lafayette have the will or desire to do that but it doesn't change the fact that the potential is right there when they want it to be turned around. Sustaining a top 20 ranked non-scholarship program; or worse, trying to turn around a floundering non-scholarship program is so much more of a challenge. What do you do to compete with full rides in that case? Again, it's not impossible, just much, much more challenging.

Anyway, that's my take on why each of the PL schools may feel that, while your "sheer math" line is correct, the potential exists for each scholarship program to feel that way, expectations wise.

I think that HC could fairly quickly become a national champ contending program if we were able to do what we were able to do at Fordham. Better facilities and a higher ranked academic school? Someone will return that program to glory. I just can't help but question whether or Gilmore, who seems like a really good coach, is a non-scholarship guy thrust into a scholarship world and if he can be the one to get them done or if he should be coaching at an Ivy instead.