Why Northeastern Football Is Failing

[DFW HOYA]

From an unrelated thread on UD, this issue:


This (attendance woes) has been discussed ad infinitum on the HC board.


A big part of it is due to technology as clenz noted imo.


Each school is different (and has different issues) obviously. The days of FCS football drawing 15-20K consistently in the Northeast are probably ovah for the most part due to "generational/cultural shifts," technology giving remote access to the games, the perception that FCS football isn't really "major college football" etc etc


Winning obviously helps...but I think we (in the Northeast anyway) have to recalibrate what figure constitutes a well attended game in 2015 and beyond.


If it is failing in the Northeast, why is it booming elsewhere? On any given weekend (to borrow a phrase) there are close to a million people attending football games in the state of Texas across 3,700 high schools, 140 colleges, and two pro teams. Here is the attendance figures for the second week of the 2015 season just among the state's Division I teams:


Ball State at Texas A&M: 104,213
Rice at Texas: 86,458
Texas-El Paso at Texas Tech: 54,090
Stephen F. Austin at TCU: 45,786
Lamar at Baylor: 44,491
Kansas State at Texas-San Antonio: 29,424
Prairie View A&M at Texas State: 24,561
North Texas at SMU: 25,401

What do these games have in common? They draw families, have entertaining pre-game and halftime activities, and provide a good value for the dollar. Sadly, many Northeastern games (and the Ivies and Georgetown are as guilty as anyone) make little effort to promote the entertainment value of the games, leading to a crowd short on students, short on families, short on local residents. The excitement of going to the game is dulled by aging facilities, nonexistent marching bands (Cornell excepted) and a feeling that time would be better spent at home or online. What does $10 buy you at the Yale Bowl or Franklin Field on a fall afternoon, other than lots of legroom?

It's not just Texas. Go to a game at Old Dominion, where they sell out 20,000 seat Foreman Field each and every game, even with less than stellar competition. It's an event that the school and the community invest in. Who is investing in URI football? Where is the commitment at Holy Cross to the Fitton Field experience? Duquesne wins the NEC and now draws 1,372 a game, down over half from their days in the woebegone MAAC. No investment in the fan experience--and if you've been to Rooney Field you know what I mean.

Northeastern football is the proverbial farmer who doesn't tend to his crops in the spring and wonder why he starves in the winter.

[superman7515]

From an unrelated thread on UD, this issue:

FTFY
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?179349-UD-Athletic-Director-Stepping-Down&p=2311728&viewfull=1#post2311728

[kdinva]

I got it...........it's about football in the Northeast.......not defunct Northeastern Univ. FB program, and that garbage dump of Parsons Field.....

[downbythebeach]

As a double Saint Francis and Duq alum, I went to the NEC champ game a couple weeks back in pittsburgh. I brought people to the game, and I think it lowered their view of fcs with how terrible duq's gameday experience is. Their whole stadium is basically temporary. The visitors side is steps, and the only thing that separates the game crowd from the rest of campus is a couple of those rope thongs they have to create lines. They got rid of their marching band a few years back and had just a couple pep banders.

[UNHWildcat18]

Our facilities are smaller and worse and we have ****ty weather most of the season. Simple as that

[Mattymc727]

The UNH board has also been discussing this issue, but it more surrounds the topic of student attendance. UNH is in an interesting situation because they are expanding and improving the stadium, so they need to fill it with new fans. Improving game day experience seems to be the issue with attracting fans and students. What can you create that will get folks to pay 30 bucks to see a football game in person rather than stay at home and stream it? Originally we thought students wouldnt go because of start times. Noon start times were too early, and since lights have been installed, games are starting at 1,2, or 3, and even at night, and the students still dont come! Yet they show up for a 7pm hockey game against Maine. What can the athletic department do to get students to want to go tailgate the football games and ACTUALLY stay and watch the games? Bigger/better opponents? Better tailgating? winning? start times?

Does having the game available online and on TV hurt or help the program? On one hand it creates more awareness, on the other, it creates an avenue to watch games away from the stadium itself.

[UNIFanSince1983]

I got it...........it's about football in the Northeast.......not defunct Northeastern Univ. FB program, and that garbage dump of Parsons Field.....

Yeah I was going to say didn't Northeastern football fail a few years ago...

[PAllen]

Because folks in Texas drive pickup trucks, eat red meat and go to football games. Folks in the NE drive hybrids and are vegan hipster wannabes.

[UNHWildcat18]

Because folks in Texas drive pickup trucks, eat red meat and go to football games. Folks in the NE drive hybrids and are vegan hipster wannabes.

I'm sure you aren't being really serious but let's keep this topic serious

[Grizalltheway]

Our facilities are smaller and worse and we have ****ty weather most of the season. Simple as that

Facilities I'll give you, but please don't pull the weather card. Northerners are supposed to be hardy folk.

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

I'm sure you aren't being really serious but let's keep this topic serious

His reply is not that far off

[Professor Chaos]

It's because of the Patriots. They're a giant black hole in sports that have turned an entire region of coulda-been-great college football fans into namby pamby ball deflating hippies!

If the Pats were more like the Vikings or the Cowboys college football in the northeast would still be going strong.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

They need bigger bands.

[Mattymc727]

It's because of the Patriots. They're a giant black hole in sports that have turned an entire region of coulda-been-great college football fans into namby pamby ball deflating hippies!

If the Pats were more like the Vikings or the Cowboys college football in the northeast would still be going strong.

If we lost more like the Vikings and Cowboys, we would like college football more? ....It almost makes too much sense.....

[kdinva]

Facilities I'll give you, but please don't pull the weather card. Northerners are supposed to be hardy folk.

The weather does not bother Packer or Badger fans.....

[Ivytalk]

I agree with Sader87 that part of it is cultural. Football is big in the South, Southwest and Midwest, from peewees to high school through college. In the Northeast, football culture is much spottier: relatively strong in PA and NJ, relatively weak in NY and New England. I agree that weather isn't a factor -- I went to a Harvard-Yale game that drew over 70K in a steady downpour -- but even The Game hasn't drawn more than 60K in New Haven in a long time.

[Mattymc727]

Weather is not a differentiation for the Northeast, but it could be for the North/South discussion. In fact, they get worse winter weather in the upper midwest/west than we do here in the northeast.

It really has to do a LOT with tradition. The tradition in the northeast is to follow the Boston sports teams with a passion. In other parts of the country, its college football. It is mostly because the northeast is chalk full of universities with sports in all divisions, splitting the majority. While there is one major city with professional sports thats easy to travel to from all New England states. Its much easier and more popular to be a Boston sports fan than a UMass fan.

In other parts of the country there arent any major pro sports teams, and the larger tv markets/cities are even farther away. The state university or local university is the best show in town.

This tradition/trend goes back a hundred years or more, and might be impossible to change.

[Grizalltheway]

Weather is not a differentiation for the Northeast, but it could be for the North/South discussion. In fact, they get worse winter weather in the upper midwest/west than we do here in the northeast.

It really has to do a LOT with tradition. The tradition in the northeast is to follow the Boston sports teams with a passion. In other parts of the country, its college football. It is mostly because the northeast is chalk full of universities with sports in all divisions, splitting the majority. While there is one major city with professional sports thats easy to travel to from all New England states. Its much easier and more popular to be a Boston sports fan than a UMass fan.

In other parts of the country there arent any major pro sports teams, and the larger tv markets/cities are even farther away. The state university or local university is the best show in town.

This tradition/trend goes back a hundred years or more, and might be impossible to change.

I hate to say /thread, but I think I have to say /thread here. xnodx

[Mattymc727]

This doesnt mean the northeast schools should stop trying however. There is PLENTY of craving for football, and if the teams are good enough and you do the right types of marketing, you can make fans, just like i was. There are over 1.2 million people in NH, all within a 1-2 HR drive to Durham, NH. No reason the school cant fill a 12k seat stadium every Saturday.

[UNHWildcat18]

I hate to say /thread, but I think I have to say /thread here. xnodx

I guess it's a combination. Areas of the USA with huge college football teams or followings such as Montana have a large football culture. The problem here isn't the weather but it's a factor. The weather makes is a hindering factor of trying to change the culture. It's hard to convince a New England student to care about small time football when the weather is going to be ****ty than for example Mercer. So it's really culture with hindering factrors such as facility environments and weather

[PAllen]

It really has to do a LOT with tradition. The tradition in the northeast is to follow the Boston sports teams with a passion. In other parts of the country, its college football. It is mostly because the northeast is chalk full of universities with sports in all divisions, splitting the majority. While there is one major city with professional sports thats easy to travel to from all New England states. Its much easier and more popular to be a Boston sports fan than a UMass fan.

In other parts of the country there arent any major pro sports teams, and the larger tv markets/cities are even farther away. The state university or local university is the best show in town.

This tradition/trend goes back a hundred years or more, and might be impossible to change.

Add NY and Philly and you're dead on.

[DFW HOYA]

Add NY and Philly and you're dead on.

Yet why does Los Angeles and San Francisco, those decidedly blue-state, pro sports towns, support not one but two major college teams each?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

This doesnt mean the northeast schools should stop trying however. There is PLENTY of craving for football, and if the teams are good enough and you do the right types of marketing, you can make fans, just like i was. There are over 1.2 million people in NH, all within a 1-2 HR drive to Durham, NH. No reason the school cant fill a 12k seat stadium every Saturday.

Especially when you add in all the alumni that are within that same time frame in MA, Southern ME and Greater Providence (RI)!!

[NDSUtk]

Honestly something the administration should try is connecting with Greek Life. That's just under 10% of UNH student body - 1,200 students. Get them engaged into coming to games. Not to mention, Greek members tend to be in other organizations and can spread the word. If the Greek Life does a competition to see who attends and gives out a dumb little plaque to the house with the best attendance, you'll get many folks. If they come and have fun...that group keeps coming. You'll have a big boost to student attendance just by that.

In short...the administration needs to engage with the largest student groups they can. Greek Life being largest. Other athletic teams probably being #2.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[Mattymc727]

Yet why does Los Angeles and San Francisco, those decidedly blue-state, pro sports towns, support not one but two major college teams each?

LA doesnt have a pro football team, and I wouldnt say that LA and San Fran are college football hotbeds. Being a UCLA or USC fan is as fair-weather as it gets.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Until about February 4th, 2002. the New England Patriots were a punchline rather than a sports franchise - victims of one of the worst beatdowns in Super Bowl history, home to some epically bad NFL teams (the Dick MacPherson era) and a repuation as a team with some good players but horribly underachieving. I say this because to call Boston a "pro football town" before 2002 is simply wrong. Boston College in the mid and late 1980s were a bigger deal than the Patriots. Perhaps not a bigger deal the Red Sox or Celtics, but definitely more than the Patriots in the original, charmless Foxboro stadium, and Boston College made it a "college sports town", at least when it came to football. Teams like Holy Cross, Harvard, BU, Northeastern, UMass and others obviously weren't as big a deal as Boston College but they were all a part of the fabric of the area and part of the college aspect of the town.

I really dislike when people say "Boston, Philadelphia, New York" is a "pro sports town" because it's really an excuse for failure, a reason not to even try to be relevant in the sports community of the city. The job of a Villanova, Temple or Penn is to make the people of Philadelphia stand up and take notice of their excellent college football product, not to shrug shoulders and say, "well, it's a pro sports town, so I shouldn't even try."

Which brings me to my point. How much of this are true regional issues, and how much of this is not trying hard enough to make a product that appeals to people? People can very easily watch a Texas A&M game at home on their couch with the beer they like and the snacks they like, and do so in a much easier way than they could, say, a Lehigh game. But 105,000 people still pay pilgrimage to TAMU home games, pretty much regardless of opponent, despite the easy access on TV.

[Mattymc727]

Honestly something the administration should try is connecting with Greek Life. That's just under 10% of UNH student body - 1,200 students. Get them engaged into coming to games. Not to mention, Greek members tend to be in other organizations and can spread the word. If the Greek Life does a competition to see who attends and gives out a dumb little plaque to the house with the best attendance, you'll get many folks. If they come and have fun...that group keeps coming. You'll have a big boost to student attendance just by that.

In short...the administration needs to engage with the largest student groups they can. Greek Life being largest. Other athletic teams probably being #2.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

UNH recently created an athletics app for you phone that allows you to compete with other students for prizes and money. So you can check into an event from your phone and earn points. Events that are in demand, like hockey are just 1 point, while womens lacrosse may be 4 points. The more points you earn the more you have to spend on tv's, dining hall bucks, and other stuff college kids one. Pretty cool idea to get the students to engage in all of athletics, not just football.

http://unhwildcats.com/news/2015/12/9/GEN_1209154727.aspx

[Mattymc727]

Until about February 4th, 2002. the New England Patriots were a punchline rather than a sports franchise - victims of one of the worst beatdowns in Super Bowl history, home to some epically bad NFL teams (the Dick MacPherson era) and a repuation as a team with some good players but horribly underachieving. I say this because to call Boston a "pro football town" before 2002 is simply wrong. Boston College in the mid and late 1980s were a bigger deal than the Patriots. Perhaps not a bigger deal the Red Sox or Celtics, but definitely more than the Patriots in the original, charmless Foxboro stadium, and Boston College made it a "college sports town", at least when it came to football. Teams like Holy Cross, Harvard, BU, Northeastern, UMass and others obviously weren't as big a deal as Boston College but they were all a part of the fabric of the area and part of the college aspect of the town.

I really dislike when people say "Boston, Philadelphia, New York" is a "pro sports town" because it's really an excuse for failure, a reason not to even try to be relevant in the sports community of the city. The job of a Villanova, Temple or Penn is to make the people of Philadelphia stand up and take notice of their excellent college football product, not to shrug shoulders and say, "well, it's a pro sports town, so I shouldn't even try."

Which brings me to my point. How much of this are true regional issues, and how much of this is not trying hard enough to make a product that appeals to people? People can very easily watch a Texas A&M game at home on their couch with the beer they like and the snacks they like, and do so in a much easier way than they could, say, a Lehigh game. But 105,000 people still pay pilgrimage to TAMU home games, pretty much regardless of opponent, despite the easy access on TV.

Whether the pats sucked or not, didnt matter to their following. My parents have been fans since they were the Boston Patriots. There was a time when a lot of New Englanders were Giants fans, before the Patriots existed, but that generation is dying off. The Pats absolutely dominate all things radio, tv, and marketing up here. I see it, hear it all day every day. Then the Red Sox dominate come summer.

[DFW HOYA]

LA doesnt have a pro football team, and I wouldnt say that LA and San Fran are college football hotbeds. Being a UCLA or USC fan is as fair-weather as it gets.

The average 2014 attendance for the largest football programs by metro area:

Los Angeles:
UCLA: 76,650
USC: 73,272

San Francisco:
Stanford: 47,862
California: 47,675

-------------
Boston:
Boston College: 34,270
Harvard: 15,018

Philadelphia:
Temple: 23,270
Villanova: 5,360

Washington:
Maryland: 46,981
Howard: 4,580

New York:
Fordham: 4,663
Wagner: 2,278

[32counter]

I agree with Sader87 that part of it is cultural. Football is big in the South, Southwest and Midwest, from peewees to high school through college. In the Northeast, football culture is much spottier: relatively strong in PA and NJ, relatively weak in NY and New England. I agree that weather isn't a factor -- I went to a Harvard-Yale game that drew over 70K in a steady downpour -- but even The Game hasn't drawn more than 60K in New Haven in a long time.

Yale's team finished 3-4 in the Ivy this year and hasn't beaten H in a decade.Y hosted and even lost to Columbia this season.Pathetic.When Y re-establishes a genuine Y-H rivalry then the Bowl will easily get filled up for The Game.In spite of the Blue mediocrity,53,000 showed up in New Haven this year.



Location: New Haven, CT
Stadium: Yale Bowl
Attendance: 52126
Weather: Clear Sky, Cool
Temperature: 41
Wind: Light

[PAllen]

Remind me again how many NFL teams LA has? USC and UCLA are the major football franchises in LA.

[ccd494]

I don't think that the lack of fan support for football in the northeast has anything to do with football, per se. I think the reasons you see lower attendance for college football games in the northeast is largely societal.

A bit of background: I grew up in Maine. I went to UMaine. Then I went to grad school at a power five school in the South. The differences in relationships my southern and midwestern friends there have with their alma maters are enormous. Obviously I love UMaine (heck, it leads me to post here despite my ambivalent at best feeling toward the school sponsoring football), but the continuing ties I will have in my life to my school pale in comparison to those who went to southern schools.

I met a lot of people who were born into families that were "Clemson families" or "Carolina families" or "UGA families." Mom went to UGA. Dad went to UGA. Mom was in Sorority A. Dad was in the brother Fraternity. Dad used family/fraternal/UGA connections to get a job at a good firm in a city in the south. Son was raised either with UGA season tickets, or going to/hosting UGA watch parties every Saturday. Son was always going to UGA. Son pledged dad's fraternity. Son met his wife at UGA. Son either is going to work with Dad after law school, or going to use family/fraternal/UGA connections to get a job. The cycle will, largely, continue.

I realize this is a generalization, but the social fabric of the south is much more tied into tradition, and continuity, than it is in the Northeast. The state universities are larger. The Greek system is stronger (heck in Alabama UA Greek alums run the state). People marry younger.

Compare that to the northeast. You will occasionally see a "Bowdoin family" or a "Harvard family" but those things generally mean something different than being a "UVA family" even though UVA is also a fantastic school. Part of it is that state flagships are smaller. Part is that, because when the northeast publics were created there were already a number of very fine liberal arts colleges in the region, that the publics focus a lot more on engineering/technical/job training type degrees than liberal arts. The liberal arts students go to a panoply of small colleges. UMaine had a Greek system, but it was small, and you don't see those relationships carry forward as much into careers.

I don't think anyone expects people to go to a northeastern university and establish their life the way it is expected in the south, even at the Catholic schools. The expectation isn't that you will join a fraternity and create a brotherhood for life. The expectation isn't that you will find your spouse in college. The expectation isn't that you will walk out of college/grad school and into the career you will have forever using your college connections. The expectation is that you will go to college, then move to the city (pick your city) and that is when you start figuring out life. It's less settled.

If your ties to your school started at birth, and not at age 18, you will feel more connected to your school and want to go back to it for social events. If you met your spouse at your school, or if you met the best friends you'll have your entire life at your school, you will all want to reconvene back there as much as possible. If your coworkers are your fellow alums, you will keep your school at the forefront of your life.

It isn't that I, or anyone else who went to a northeast school, aren't proud of that school, or didn't enjoy our four years there, but that's what it was. Four years. There was a period of four years before it, and there will (hopefully) be many more periods of four years after it. We'll go to reunions, maybe one or two games a year, but that's about it. Last year I went to one UMaine football game. I will go see the hockey team when they play in Portland. If the hockey or basketball team makes either the Garden for the Hockey East finals or a conference final, I will go. I go to the Frozen Fenway event in Boston when that happens. But that's about it.

[Go Green]

The average 2014 attendance for the largest football programs by metro area:


New York:
Fordham: 4,663
Wagner: 2,278

That sounds wrong.

Columbia usually averages between 6K-4K a year depending on weather. I can't recall a season when any Ivy team (Columbia or anyone) averaged less than 3K a season.

Unless there is some other metric for "largest football program" beyond attendance number that was being used.

[Mattymc727]

To branch off what ccd494 stated, my parents went to Bridgewater State. My brother went to Wentworth Institute of Technology. I went to Roger Williams university and SNHU, my grandparents went to Simmons college, BC, and Bentley. Aunt went to Michigan, Uncle to Colby College. What college teams would we be rooting for? Pro sports are the only thing that keeps us unified. We would go tailgate Pats games, go into Boston and catch the Sox, C's, or Bruins. There are a million other New England families like mine.

Go south of Maryland, or west of PA, and its the state school or bust.

[Bill]

I don't think that the lack of fan support for football in the northeast has anything to do with football, per se. I think the reasons you see lower attendance for college football games in the northeast is largely societal.

A bit of background: I grew up in Maine. I went to UMaine. Then I went to grad school at a power five school in the South. The differences in relationships my southern and midwestern friends there have with their alma maters are enormous. Obviously I love UMaine (heck, it leads me to post here despite my ambivalent at best feeling toward the school sponsoring football), but the continuing ties I will have in my life to my school pale in comparison to those who went to southern schools.

I met a lot of people who were born into families that were "Clemson families" or "Carolina families" or "UGA families." Mom went to UGA. Dad went to UGA. Mom was in Sorority A. Dad was in the brother Fraternity. Dad used family/fraternal/UGA connections to get a job at a good firm in a city in the south. Son was raised either with UGA season tickets, or going to/hosting UGA watch parties every Saturday. Son was always going to UGA. Son pledged dad's fraternity. Son met his wife at UGA. Son either is going to work with Dad after law school, or going to use family/fraternal/UGA connections to get a job. The cycle will, largely, continue.

I realize this is a generalization, but the social fabric of the south is much more tied into tradition, and continuity, than it is in the Northeast. The state universities are larger. The Greek system is stronger (heck in Alabama UA Greek alums run the state). People marry younger.

Compare that to the northeast. You will occasionally see a "Bowdoin family" or a "Harvard family" but those things generally mean something different than being a "UVA family" even though UVA is also a fantastic school. Part of it is that state flagships are smaller. Part is that, because when the northeast publics were created there were already a number of very fine liberal arts colleges in the region, that the publics focus a lot more on engineering/technical/job training type degrees than liberal arts. The liberal arts students go to a panoply of small colleges. UMaine had a Greek system, but it was small, and you don't see those relationships carry forward as much into careers.

I don't think anyone expects people to go to a northeastern university and establish their life the way it is expected in the south, even at the Catholic schools. The expectation isn't that you will join a fraternity and create a brotherhood for life. The expectation isn't that you will find your spouse in college. The expectation isn't that you will walk out of college/grad school and into the career you will have forever using your college connections. The expectation is that you will go to college, then move to the city (pick your city) and that is when you start figuring out life. It's less settled.

If your ties to your school started at birth, and not at age 18, you will feel more connected to your school and want to go back to it for social events. If you met your spouse at your school, or if you met the best friends you'll have your entire life at your school, you will all want to reconvene back there as much as possible. If your coworkers are your fellow alums, you will keep your school at the forefront of your life.

It isn't that I, or anyone else who went to a northeast school, aren't proud of that school, or didn't enjoy our four years there, but that's what it was. Four years. There was a period of four years before it, and there will (hopefully) be many more periods of four years after it. We'll go to reunions, maybe one or two games a year, but that's about it. Last year I went to one UMaine football game. I will go see the hockey team when they play in Portland. If the hockey or basketball team makes either the Garden for the Hockey East finals or a conference final, I will go. I go to the Frozen Fenway event in Boston when that happens. But that's about it.

Well said!

[NHwildEcat]

I don't think that the lack of fan support for football in the northeast has anything to do with football, per se. I think the reasons you see lower attendance for college football games in the northeast is largely societal.

A bit of background: I grew up in Maine. I went to UMaine. Then I went to grad school at a power five school in the South. The differences in relationships my southern and midwestern friends there have with their alma maters are enormous. Obviously I love UMaine (heck, it leads me to post here despite my ambivalent at best feeling toward the school sponsoring football), but the continuing ties I will have in my life to my school pale in comparison to those who went to southern schools.

I met a lot of people who were born into families that were "Clemson families" or "Carolina families" or "UGA families." Mom went to UGA. Dad went to UGA. Mom was in Sorority A. Dad was in the brother Fraternity. Dad used family/fraternal/UGA connections to get a job at a good firm in a city in the south. Son was raised either with UGA season tickets, or going to/hosting UGA watch parties every Saturday. Son was always going to UGA. Son pledged dad's fraternity. Son met his wife at UGA. Son either is going to work with Dad after law school, or going to use family/fraternal/UGA connections to get a job. The cycle will, largely, continue.

I realize this is a generalization, but the social fabric of the south is much more tied into tradition, and continuity, than it is in the Northeast. The state universities are larger. The Greek system is stronger (heck in Alabama UA Greek alums run the state). People marry younger.

Compare that to the northeast. You will occasionally see a "Bowdoin family" or a "Harvard family" but those things generally mean something different than being a "UVA family" even though UVA is also a fantastic school. Part of it is that state flagships are smaller. Part is that, because when the northeast publics were created there were already a number of very fine liberal arts colleges in the region, that the publics focus a lot more on engineering/technical/job training type degrees than liberal arts. The liberal arts students go to a panoply of small colleges. UMaine had a Greek system, but it was small, and you don't see those relationships carry forward as much into careers.

I don't think anyone expects people to go to a northeastern university and establish their life the way it is expected in the south, even at the Catholic schools. The expectation isn't that you will join a fraternity and create a brotherhood for life. The expectation isn't that you will find your spouse in college. The expectation isn't that you will walk out of college/grad school and into the career you will have forever using your college connections. The expectation is that you will go to college, then move to the city (pick your city) and that is when you start figuring out life. It's less settled.

If your ties to your school started at birth, and not at age 18, you will feel more connected to your school and want to go back to it for social events. If you met your spouse at your school, or if you met the best friends you'll have your entire life at your school, you will all want to reconvene back there as much as possible. If your coworkers are your fellow alums, you will keep your school at the forefront of your life.

It isn't that I, or anyone else who went to a northeast school, aren't proud of that school, or didn't enjoy our four years there, but that's what it was. Four years. There was a period of four years before it, and there will (hopefully) be many more periods of four years after it. We'll go to reunions, maybe one or two games a year, but that's about it. Last year I went to one UMaine football game. I will go see the hockey team when they play in Portland. If the hockey or basketball team makes either the Garden for the Hockey East finals or a conference final, I will go. I go to the Frozen Fenway event in Boston when that happens. But that's about it.

Your points are all good and I think define what it is like up here socially. I am on this board as a supporter of UNH; however, I never stepped foot on campus as a student. My father worked for years at the University and then my mother in later years. My father got free tickets in the 90's to a football game (and he hates football or sports in general) and took me and my bother to a UMass/UNH game which I recall for having seen Jerry Azumah. That was my only exposure to the football team until I got into college and was fascinated with the Santos/Ball connection and have been hooked every Saturday since. I was/maybe still am a bigger fan of UNH hockey, and I will watch UNH basketball when it is on (rarely) TV.

Why didn't I go to UNH? Because I grew up too close- and a ton of people I went to HS with were attending. I wanted a new experience, so I went to the state's largest city- Manchester and attended Southern NH University. Where funny, based on your post I met my wife- joined a fraternity and maintain many great and deep friendships with my brothers and others I met during my time on campus. I am not an active member of the alumni association and serve as a board member. I attend games when I can, used to be more before my daughter was born- but I watch whenever the basketball team is on TV or when our soccer team makes a run at the national title. We never had football, so I never felt like I was competing with UNH. Maybe if SNHU had football, I'd not have been inclined to drive to Durham for football games- but who knows. That will never be a problem.

It is a fact though, we were a bunch of kids from all parts of New England and we identified my our pro sports. But when we were in school we attended our home games better than I think the student population does at UNH. We have a D2 hockey team- which is pointless, but I won't rant about that here. So instead of giving two ****s about that program we all had our own Hockey East teams we followed. So there was me with UNH, a friend for UMaine, we have a BC guy, and a Providence guy. That made it fun- we all had a different horse to ride throughout the winter. I actually feel bad that I don't give my alma mater more support as a fan than I do UNH- but with a young child I need the convenience of TV to stay connected to games, I cannot make it to that many any more and when I do it will tend to be a Bruins or Red Sox game. Maybe we just have too many options when it comes to being located so close to a major sports town.

[ccd494]

Sports is a communal experience. Our universities (excepting maybe Harvard and Yale and UConn in New England) are less communal than southern/midwestern/Penn State communities. That may be a chicken/egg problem, but it's the problem.

[DFW HOYA]

That sounds wrong.

Columbia usually averages between 6K-4K a year depending on weather. I can't recall a season when any Ivy team (Columbia or anyone) averaged less than 3K a season.

Unless there is some other metric for "largest football program" beyond attendance number that was being used.

Missed Columbia (5,576). Thanks for the catch.

[caribbeanhen]

Until about February 4th, 2002. the New England Patriots were a punchline rather than a sports franchise - victims of one of the worst beatdowns in Super Bowl history, home to some epically bad NFL teams (the Dick MacPherson era) and a repuation as a team with some good players but horribly underachieving. I say this because to call Boston a "pro football town" before 2002 is simply wrong. Boston College in the mid and late 1980s were a bigger deal than the Patriots. Perhaps not a bigger deal the Red Sox or Celtics, but definitely more than the Patriots in the original, charmless Foxboro stadium, and Boston College made it a "college sports town", at least when it came to football. Teams like Holy Cross, Harvard, BU, Northeastern, UMass and others obviously weren't as big a deal as Boston College but they were all a part of the fabric of the area and part of the college aspect of the town.

I really dislike when people say "Boston, Philadelphia, New York" is a "pro sports town" because it's really an excuse for failure, a reason not to even try to be relevant in the sports community of the city. The job of a Villanova, Temple or Penn is to make the people of Philadelphia stand up and take notice of their excellent college football product, not to shrug shoulders and say, "well, it's a pro sports town, so I shouldn't even try."

Which brings me to my point. How much of this are true regional issues, and how much of this is not trying hard enough to make a product that appeals to people? People can very easily watch a Texas A&M game at home on their couch with the beer they like and the snacks they like, and do so in a much easier way than they could, say, a Lehigh game. But 105,000 people still pay pilgrimage to TAMU home games, pretty much regardless of opponent, despite the easy access on TV.

Perhaps? you crossed the line right there haha

[Catsfan90]

Honestly something the administration should try is connecting with Greek Life. That's just under 10% of UNH student body - 1,200 students. Get them engaged into coming to games. Not to mention, Greek members tend to be in other organizations and can spread the word. If the Greek Life does a competition to see who attends and gives out a dumb little plaque to the house with the best attendance, you'll get many folks. If they come and have fun...that group keeps coming. You'll have a big boost to student attendance just by that.

In short...the administration needs to engage with the largest student groups they can. Greek Life being largest. Other athletic teams probably being #2.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
I suggested this on the UNH board. You could really utilize them! Even if only a few houses showed up that's still much much more students that attend the games. Makes the stadium more full, and makes the atmosphere more exciting.

[KPSUL]

You could have posted this thread on Northeast college football any time in the last 40 years, except for maybe the 3 years Doug Flutie played at BC, and the comments would have been about the same.

[Gate83]

The writers at the Globe must be following this thread...

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/12/24/umass-football-stalled-and-seeking-solutions/WQ07Rwz1ZfXnlLGZMVBSTI/story.html?event=event25#comments

Here in the NY Metro there's roughly zero coverage of local college football. Army might get some pub if there team was ever any good, but...

[UNHWildcat18]

Honestly something the administration should try is connecting with Greek Life. That's just under 10% of UNH student body - 1,200 students. Get them engaged into coming to games. Not to mention, Greek members tend to be in other organizations and can spread the word. If the Greek Life does a competition to see who attends and gives out a dumb little plaque to the house with the best attendance, you'll get many folks. If they come and have fun...that group keeps coming. You'll have a big boost to student attendance just by that.

In short...the administration needs to engage with the largest student groups they can. Greek Life being largest. Other athletic teams probably being #2.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


Being an alumni of not only UNH but Greek life as well, I said it on our board. A **** ton of people in Greek life are at the tailgates and in the stands/student section people just don't know because we don't wear our letters to the game when we can wear UNH athletic gear instead

[Laker]

The writers at the Globe must be following this thread...

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/12/24/umass-football-stalled-and-seeking-solutions/WQ07Rwz1ZfXnlLGZMVBSTI/story.html?event=event25#comments

Here in the NY Metro there's roughly zero coverage of local college football. Army might get some pub if there team was ever any good, but...

Reading the article, I found it ironic that there was a story below it titled, "Boston Pride Out To Prove That Women's Pro Hockey Can Make It Here".

It is hard enough to get people to go to college women's hockey games. And the Gopher women tend to be at or near the top every year. MSU-Mankato women are always at the bottom. I wouldn't think that pro women's hockey would fare much better- or even as well.

I never did figure out why college football didn't seem to be very big in the Northeast. I knew that they were more into pro ball- but you still need something to go to on Saturday afternoons.

[Go Green]

Until about February 4th, 2002. .

I would put it a few years after that when the old Big East schools jumped ship for the ACC.

Or you can make the case that BE football lost relevance some 5-10 years earlier.

[32counter]

Ironic that High School football in CT remains at high level of interest by respective towns.Have continued tradition of Thanksgiving Day games-some 65 games recently held.The Fairfield County championship between Darien and New Cannan was played in front of 10,000 people at Boyle stadium in Stamford.Playoffs remain a big event in CT which is very well attended and thoroughly covered by the press.

The level of interest is likely the same in Massachusetts with other New England states-Maine,Vermont,New Hampshire,Rhode Island likely not having either the population nor same level of support.

The rosters of UMaine,UNH and URI are never comprised of in-state players.There are very few high school players from those respective states who could play at the D-1 level.Most of those schools are required to recruit from out-of-state locations.

UMass and BC have Massachusetts players on their teams which increases local interest in the program.

UConn has plenty of CT kids on their roster as do Sacred Heart and CCSU that play in the NEC which is getting more exposure every year.Duquesne took the Tribe down to the wire in the 1st round of the playoffs even with 1/2 as many scholarships.

[catamount man]

I'll play devil's advocate and say that schools in the Northeastern part of America, for the most part, see the game for what it was truly supposed to be and that's an integral part of the college experience and not the one dominating reason for attending said university or college to begin with. I like that and I suspect when the college football bubble busts, a lot of teams outside the power 5 conferences will get back to this same mindset.

[Bisonwinagn]

I'll play devil's advocate and say that schools in the Northeastern part of America, for the most part, see the game for what it was truly supposed to be and that's an integral part of the college experience and not the one dominating reason for attending said university or college to begin with. I like that and I suspect when the college football bubble busts, a lot of teams outside the power 5 conferences will get back to this same mindset.

I don't agree with this. When the football bubble bursts it will explode with schools dropping football altogether. It will cease to exist outside of the top programs. As much as I love football and sports in general today is the best it will ever be. We are starting to see the decline in attendance and colleges will soon be forced to only carry niche sports. Like any industry when the costs outweigh the benefits changes are made.

[ngineer]

From an unrelated thread on UD, this issue:




If it is failing in the Northeast, why is it booming elsewhere? On any given weekend (to borrow a phrase) there are close to a million people attending football games in the state of Texas across 3,700 high schools, 140 colleges, and two pro teams. Here is the attendance figures for the second week of the 2015 season just among the state's Division I teams:


Ball State at Texas A&M: 104,213
Rice at Texas: 86,458
Texas-El Paso at Texas Tech: 54,090
Stephen F. Austin at TCU: 45,786
Lamar at Baylor: 44,491
Kansas State at Texas-San Antonio: 29,424
Prairie View A&M at Texas State: 24,561
North Texas at SMU: 25,401

What do these games have in common? They draw families, have entertaining pre-game and halftime activities, and provide a good value for the dollar. Sadly, many Northeastern games (and the Ivies and Georgetown are as guilty as anyone) make little effort to promote the entertainment value of the games, leading to a crowd short on students, short on families, short on local residents. The excitement of going to the game is dulled by aging facilities, nonexistent marching bands (Cornell excepted) and a feeling that time would be better spent at home or online. What does $10 buy you at the Yale Bowl or Franklin Field on a fall afternoon, other than lots of legroom?

It's not just Texas. Go to a game at Old Dominion, where they sell out 20,000 seat Foreman Field each and every game, even with less than stellar competition. It's an event that the school and the community invest in. Who is investing in URI football? Where is the commitment at Holy Cross to the Fitton Field experience? Duquesne wins the NEC and now draws 1,372 a game, down over half from their days in the woebegone MAAC. No investment in the fan experience--and if you've been to Rooney Field you know what I mean.

Northeastern football is the proverbial farmer who doesn't tend to his crops in the spring and wonder why he starves in the winter.

A complex question, but a simplistic answer is culture. There is a different focus. Football is not as primary in the "things people want spend a Saturday afternoon on" category. Many more options than 20 years ago and much more competition. Can't tell you how many guys I know who would normally come to a game, but there is constant scheduling conflicts with children/grandchildren activities, plus the high schools play at the same time. Add to that most schools stream their games for free. IMO that has cut out the 'casual fan' who doesn't have to spend $10-20 for a ticket, plus gas and travel. Can 'catch' the game and do something else at the same time. Students can drink in their dorms and apartments while watching the game without the risk of getting busted on campus....in the words of Billy Crystal, "Don't get me started!"

[Sader87]

You could have posted this thread on Northeast college football any time in the last 40 years, except for maybe the 3 years Doug Flutie played at BC, and the comments would have been about the same.

I don't completely agree. BC drew pretty well before and after the Doug Flutie years. It's only been ovah the last half decade or so that attendance at Chestnut Hill has fallen it seems. Army drew well throughout the 1980s and into the 90s, again, I think it's only been in the last decade that games at West Point haven't mostly been sold-out. Those are the two FBS programs nearby to me that I can say I have a pretty good feel on how well they've been "followed" ovah the last 40 or so years (1975-2015) UMass and UConn are relative newcomers to the FBS-level, so it's impossible to gauge their support in that time period in this regard.

Ivy football attendance has definitely plummeted since 1975. It was falling already but once the Ancient VIII went FCS in 1982, it fell dramatically I believe.

I know for a fact that Holy Cross football was much bettah attended into the early 1990s than it is today.

Point being, I think you see the steep drop of attendance/support for FCS/FBS football in the Northeast (which I'd define here as New England, New York and New Jersey) more in the last 10, 20 years than 40. There are obviously outliers, Rutgers is now in the B1G, opposed to their program in 1975 playing the likes of a lot of PL programs etc.

[2ram]

Speaking from a NYC teams perspective, it's hard to for Fordham to compete with the Giants, Jets, Nets, Mets, Knicks, Yankees, Rangers, and Islanders... to say nothing of the local FBS teams, and numerous FCS squads.

You'd think with the sheer size of the market it wouldn't be a problem, but there are only so many opportunities to garner attention vs. the marketing machines of professional sports. Sadly, college football in the NE is 2nd rate to the Giants game and the juggernaut that fantasy sports has become.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Just to play Devil's Advocate: Despite Hofstra and Northeastern dropping football, the Northeast now has playoff conference D-I programs at Bryant, Sacred Heart, CCSU, Wagner, Marist, Monmouth, Albany and Stony Brook. The lost programs at Fairfield, Iona, St Peter's, LaSalle, etc. were really D3 and casualties of the Dayton rule (forced to play D-I). And I'd say the upside at Albany and Stony Brook far outweighs what Hofstra and Northeastern had going. UMass and UConn have upgraded to FBS and the Huskies now have a 40K stadium. UConn has more than doubled their attendance in their bad years and more than tripled in their good seasons. BC, UMass and UConn are getting ready to embark on a series of games between each other with a few at Gillette, all that should draw very well. UNH is adding a new grandstand that will almost double capacity. It's not all doom and gloom.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I don't completely agree. BC drew pretty well before and after the Doug Flutie years. It's only been ovah the last half decade or so that attendance at Chestnut Hill has fallen it seems. Army drew well throughout the 1980s and into the 90s, again, I think it's only been in the last decade that games at West Point haven't mostly been sold-out. Those are the two FBS programs nearby to me that I can say I have a pretty good feel on how well they've been "followed" ovah the last 40 or so years (1975-2015) UMass and UConn are relative newcomers to the FBS-level, so it's impossible to gauge their support in that time period in this regard.

Ivy football attendance has definitely plummeted since 1975. It was falling already but once the Ancient VIII went FCS in 1982, it fell dramatically I believe.

I know for a fact that Holy Cross football was much bettah attended into the early 1990s than it is today.

Point being, I think you see the steep drop of attendance/support for FCS/FBS football in the Northeast (which I'd define here as New England, New York and New Jersey) more in the last 10, 20 years than 40. There are obviously outliers, Rutgers is now in the B1G, opposed to their program in 1975 playing the likes of a lot of PL programs etc.

What steep drop off? UMass draws about the same as I suspect Maine and URI do as well. UNH has dropped somewhat but would have matched 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's figures when they rebounded in 2004 if not for reduced capacity. With the new grandstand, I expect UNH to match or exceed the former attendance figures. UConn and Rutgers are drawing significantly more. I believe Albany and Stony Brook are drawing more than Northeastern and Hofstra with the potential for even more. All the NEC teams are added fans to D-I FCS and significantly more than the MAAC schools that dropped football. Maybe the real problem is with the Ivies and Holy Cross.

[Ivytalk]

I don't completely agree. BC drew pretty well before and after the Doug Flutie years. It's only been ovah the last half decade or so that attendance at Chestnut Hill has fallen it seems. Army drew well throughout the 1980s and into the 90s, again, I think it's only been in the last decade that games at West Point haven't mostly been sold-out. Those are the two FBS programs nearby to me that I can say I have a pretty good feel on how well they've been "followed" ovah the last 40 or so years (1975-2015) UMass and UConn are relative newcomers to the FBS-level, so it's impossible to gauge their support in that time period in this regard.

Ivy football attendance has definitely plummeted since 1975. It was falling already but once the Ancient VIII went FCS in 1982, it fell dramatically I believe.

I know for a fact that Holy Cross football was much bettah attended into the early 1990s than it is today.

Point being, I think you see the steep drop of attendance/support for FCS/FBS football in the Northeast (which I'd define here as New England, New York and New Jersey) more in the last 10, 20 years than 40. There are obviously outliers, Rutgers is now in the B1G, opposed to their program in 1975 playing the likes of a lot of PL programs etc.
Er, ahh (as Ted Kennedy would say, searching for a verb), that's because BC sucks. It fits as well with the ACC as a leper on the Swedish bikini team. I feel better now!:D

[UNHWildcat18]

Just to play Devil's Advocate: Despite Hofstra and Northeastern dropping football, the Northeast now has playoff conference D-I programs at Bryant, Sacred Heart, CCSU, Wagner, Marist, Monmouth, Albany and Stony Brook. The lost programs at Fairfield, Iona, St Peter's, LaSalle, etc. were really D3 and casualties of the Dayton rule (forced to play D-I). And I'd say the upside at Albany and Stony Brook far outweighs what Hofstra and Northeastern had going. UMass and UConn have upgraded to FBS and the Huskies now have a 40K stadium. UConn has more than doubled their attendance in their bad years and more than tripled in their good seasons. BC, UMass and UConn are getting ready to embark on a series of games between each other with a few at Gillette, all that should draw very well. UNH is adding a new grandstand that will almost double capacity. It's not all doom and gloom.

If only the current side didn't lose a portion. I Still HATE UNH for putting that track where it is. If only someone could have said hey you are dropping baseball in a few years put it there instead. No matter what UNH can never expand again, even if we ditched the track(will never happen) and moved the field to the new grandstand the old one would be even further away. While im happy for the new stadium if we consistently packed it and needed more seats we cant do squat about it.

[Catsfan90]

If only the current side didn't lose a portion. I Still HATE UNH for putting that track where it is. If only someone could have said hey you are dropping baseball in a few years put it there instead. No matter what UNH can never expand again, even if we ditched the track(will never happen) and moved the field to the new grandstand the old one would be even further away. While im happy for the new stadium if we consistently packed it and needed more seats we cant do squat about it.
If you look at albertsons in boise stadium, they had a track and built around it. It's since been removed, and they've done a nice job of making it seem as if it were never there.

[Neighbor2]

A complex question, but a simplistic answer is culture. There is a different focus. Football is not as primary in the "things people want spend a Saturday afternoon on" category. Many more options than 20 years ago and much more competition. Can't tell you how many guys I know who would normally come to a game, but there is constant scheduling conflicts with children/grandchildren activities, plus the high schools play at the same time. Add to that most schools stream their games for free. IMO that has cut out the 'casual fan' who doesn't have to spend $10-20 for a ticket, plus gas and travel. Can 'catch' the game and do something else at the same time. Students can drink in their dorms and apartments while watching the game without the risk of getting busted on campus....in the words of Billy Crystal, "Don't get me started!"


YES!

TV is one significant change that keeps attendance lower than the 'good 'ole days.' Attending in-person is no longer the best experience for many, including me, and I live close enough to hear the Lehigh announcer during athletic events! I still attend a few, but not nearly as many. One advantage of television over in-person that's often overlooked is instant replay, slow motion, and (sometimes) on screen stats. I can remember only getting to see Lehigh on TV once per year. Those were the Shel Siegel days when PBS did Lehigh/Lafayette.

[Model Citizen]

Comparing USC's attendance to that of Fordham or Howard is kind of silly, don't you think? USC isn't even classified at the same level as the other two.

Rutgers...that's almost a reasonable comparison (one hour's drive from Manhattan). The Scarlet Knights are going to get better. They're going to attract more fans. Not every fan will understand this, however, because their stadium seats fewer than 53,000.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

If only the current side didn't lose a portion. I Still HATE UNH for putting that track where it is. If only someone could have said hey you are dropping baseball in a few years put it there instead. No matter what UNH can never expand again, even if we ditched the track(will never happen) and moved the field to the new grandstand the old one would be even further away. While im happy for the new stadium if we consistently packed it and needed more seats we cant do squat about it.

The track has always been in this location. When I was a student, cross country meets were timed so they would finish at half time in front of the home stands. It was great for them to be cheered to their finish line. Baseball had been cut a few years when they raised the money to modernize the track. Unfortunately, this was also a time when football wasn't drawing well. Santos and Ball were still in high school and many were questioning UNH's future in the A-10. Timing is everything!

[Laker]

This post reminds me of how surprised I was to hear that Vermont dropped football in the old Yankee Conference. And that was after the 1974 season. Ben and Jerry must not care.

[UNHWildcat18]

This post reminds me of how surprised I was to hear that Vermont dropped football in the old Yankee Conference. And that was after the 1974 season. Ben and Jerry must not care.

I really wish UVM had football. I could care less about Hofstra and northeastern. But UVM based on where it is could absolutely pack it in to a decent sized stadium

[ElCid]

The real culprit is culture, plain and simple, at many levels. Having lived in both the Northeast, growing up, and around the South, now, I can see it very clearly. I will concentrate on the South and NE as I know them, but it may apply to the Mid-West/West as well, but they probably have their own particular issues. Just some random thoughts and anecdotal examples.

I am not sure that the argument that there is a battle between support for College vs Pro holds much water in regard to their proximity. For those that think the only reason the south has more support for college games because of the lack of Pro teams is not valid on many levels. 40 years ago maybe. Not now. Clemson averaged 82K in 2014, UGA averaged 93K, and USC averaged 81K. They are all within easy distance of both Charlotte and Atlanta. Heck, many of their grads probably live in those metro areas. Tenn averaged almost 100K while competing (?) with the Titans. Florida averaged 86K and Fla St 82K and Jacksonville is close to both. So why do people in the NE become fans of the pros instead of college? For one, there is no media blitz for college teams like there is in the south. If all you hear about is NE and the Giants and the Jets, and the Eagles, then that is what the buzz is. So why don't the alumnus and alumnae at least support their respective schools through attendance? It would at least get the attendance numbers up. I think there are three main reasons for it: travel issues, social/cultural issues and religion.

Why don't folks in the NE travel for college games like they do in the south? First, travel distances are not as big an issue as in the South as they are in the NE. Probably due to less congestion, but since the NE has more public trans that is not necessarily the only reason, but it has an impact. Folks in the south can at least get to games more easily. I grew up in NW NJ in Sussex County. I remember when we used to drive to Albany and it was an event. It took all of 3 hours. It was like going to the moon. I was about 50-60 miles from downtown NYC growing up. I have been there less than 10 times in my entire 18 years growing up. It was another world. If we didn't have to travel, we didn't. Since I have been down South, I see folks traveling those distances all the time at the drop of a hat for any reasons. My father-in-law, who use to live in Charleston was a Clemson grad and traveled to Clemson for football games, ON DAYTRIPS! For those of you in the NE who are geographically challenged, the trip was 250 miles...each way. So it was a 13-14 hour day. For 8 years in a row after I retired from Active Duty (I am still working), my wife and I traveled to Charleston for every home game at The Citadel. It is 270 miles each way, but we spent the weekend. Guys in my office are huge SEC fans and they go regularly to Gainesville and Knoxville for games, on day trips! So to sum up, I think folks in the NE are less likely to go to college games because of the traveling culture is less and for traffic issues. This is due to probably having to fight the traffic every day commuting so why add one more day. And while I am sure there are people who do not mind the traffic, this is probably true in general. But to put it in perspective, would you expect someone living just south of DC to travel to Fordham for a football game for the day? Maybe, but probably not. I am not sure the weather has much to do with it by itself. But if you couple it with the traffic and congestion, it may be a factor late in the season. Who wants to drive through the snow and ice or sit in the cold, even across town, in November, in Philly or NYC?

As far as social culture goes, there are many factors. I read where many folks may not have gone to a particular school and that they may have gone to a smaller school with no football so pro teams just fill that void. The south is chock full of small schools as well, many liberal arts. But most who graduate from those smaller schools in the south with no football, or Div II or III all have their favorite FBS (or FCS) team they cheer for. They may also have a family member attend a football school and that is why they are fans. I know lots of folks who never went to Clemson who are big fans. They might be fans of the Falcons or Panthers as well but they are rabid Tiger fans. Same goes for Georgia, Florida, or other colleges. I also know many folks who have no affiliation with some college teams other than they were fans growing up. Some who never went to college at all. Why? For one, folks in the south have a strong bond of community. They like to belong to communities. These fan bases represent those communities and they have ties of family and friends all around them with connections to the schools. Who has ties to the Falcons or Panthers? And, as I mentioned, the sports news is dominated by Georgia or Clemson, or Florida or Fla St, or whatever college team is in town or the state and that is what people look at and talk about. Can you imagine the NYT having the front page of their newspaper with stories about Fordham, Columbia, Wagner, and Stoney Brook? I'm pretty sure you would see an uptick in attendance if it were so. Why don't they run those stories? And I may be the odd ball, but I know other people who feel like I do, I could care less about pro football. Stopped following it years ago. And I lived in Tampa, St Louis, and NY when those teams won the SB. Oh I will watch the occasional game and the SB but that is about it. I concentrate on College Football, FCS......and FBS a distant second. But most importantly, I am a fan of my Bulldogs and that comes down to culture as well.

As a cadet, we went to all the home games, and some away ones as well. Granted we had to, but I became a fan as a cadet. It was my school and I am proud of it. And I think that other Cid grads feel that way as well. And I did not grow up watching football at The Citadel. Heck I never even heard of the school until my junior year in HS. In general I am not sure that folks look at college the way they used to. The sense of loyalty is not as prevalent as it used to. Again, that is just from my observation. I talk to people about where they went to school and more and more it seems they just view it as a place they spent 4 years. Even down south lately but not as bad as some schools. It would amaze you if you knew how many AF Academy grads have nothing but contempt for the AFA. It has been discussed before, but I think The Citadel has one of the most successful attendance records in all of college football, especially at the FCS level, when you compare the number of graduates AND consider our not so sterling record of performance over the years. There is a reason for that. An argument may be made for someone else, but not sure who. With 20-22K living alumni (many in the military stationed far away), we have been drawing an average of about 14K since 1990. We have ticked down a little in the last few years, but that is not bad considering we have had only 9 winning seasons in that 25 year span. And we have issues with fighting for fans against Clemson and USC on a regular basis. At tailgates I see people who have their TVs all set up and they are watching.....Clemson or USC. And we fight the news print battle as well with Clemson and USC stealing the front page of Charleston newspapers (unless happen to beat one of them). But so many folks have families who have ties to so many schools; it is like one big family. I know families who have grads from multiple SC schools, big and small. It is always a family fight (a nice one) for fans bases. But getting back to how one feels about their school, I know that graduates of NE schools are proud of their schools, but they might not just show it via attendance. But why not?

Besides the travel issue, and I know the NE folks will cringe when I say it, folks are just more social in the south. Football games are big social events in the south. People go out of their way to make their tailgates bigger and special and invite folks to join them. If I went totally unprepared for pre-game activities at the Citadel, or any other place for that matter, I would have no worries that I would enter the stadium with a belly full of some food that is just downright bad for you. I will cite one specific example when I went to The Citadel-Georgia Southern game in 2013 in Statesboro. I was with a '53 grad and we did not bring anything as we were guests of GaSo grad in his private club level (he only had snacks). As we walked through the tailgating area, we were asked many times by Ga So folks to join them. We were stuffed full before got to the stadium. Maybe it is the same in the NE, but probably not. And I know that it is not done as much nowadays, but people also used to dress up for games down south and some still do. Ladies wore dresses and men wore coats. Again, it may have to do with the culture. And I am not sure that folks in the NE (in general) have as much sense of community due to its population size and diversity of all kinds (and yes I am using it as a negative attribute in this case). I think the pageantry is bigger as well in the south. The bands and the events leading up to the games are sometimes great. Many schools have their own thing so there is not one thing that everyone does. Some do parades through their tail gate areas. Some have huge bands. Some do fireworks. At The Citadel we have the Corps of Cadets marching from campus onto the field. Each school finds something that people want to come and see and be a part of.

The last reason, religion, is perhaps the easiest to explain. Football is the largest religion in the south. Nuf said. Maybe we need to send some missionaries up to the NE.

I certainly hope that it can be turned around for some of these NE schools which have such a rich football history, but schools need to be active and creative in bringing that about. "If you build they will come," just ain't going to work.

[Sader87]

Er, ahh (as Ted Kennedy would say, searching for a verb), that's because BC sucks. It fits as well with the ACC as a leper on the Swedish bikini team. I feel better now!:D

Of that, we can agree!!! Merry Christmas!!!

[Sader87]

What steep drop off? UMass draws about the same as I suspect Maine and URI do as well. UNH has dropped somewhat but would have matched 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's figures when they rebounded in 2004 if not for reduced capacity. With the new grandstand, I expect UNH to match or exceed the former attendance figures. UConn and Rutgers are drawing significantly more. I believe Albany and Stony Brook are drawing more than Northeastern and Hofstra with the potential for even more. All the NEC teams are added fans to D-I FCS and significantly more than the MAAC schools that dropped football. Maybe the real problem is with the Ivies and Holy Cross.

It's actually kind of hard to compare NE/NY FCS programs (some then D2) in 1975 to 2015....the only schools that played on basically that level now and today are Holy Cross, Colgate, Columbia, Cornell, Yale, Brown, Harvard, Dartmouth, UNH, URI and Maine. Most, if not all, of these schools don't draw as well consistently as they did then.

I think attendance in general is a problem but's it's seen as more glaring at the Ivies and HC because they drew much bettah 30, 40 years ago.

Merry Christmas all!!!

[paward]

I got it...........it's about football in the Northeast.......not defunct Northeastern Univ. FB program, and that garbage dump of Parsons Field.....

I kinda like Parson Field. Always gave me great tour of Boston trying to find it.

[Ivytalk]

Of that, we can agree!!! Merry Christmas!!!
And to you as well, Sadah! I come by my hatred of BC honestly: from the Beanpot hockey tournament.xnodx

[Scooter]

The reason for low fan support in NE is simple, D1 college hockey. Over half of the D1 hockey programs are within 300 miles of Boston. When hockey starts the football support lags for college ball.

[dgtw]

We have a D1 hockey program just a couple hours from Jacksonville and our attendance is fine.


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[Sader87]

The reason for low fan support in NE is simple, D1 college hockey. Over half of the D1 hockey programs are within 300 miles of Boston. When hockey starts the football support lags for college ball.

Maybe to some extent but I think it's more other things.....the Ivies and HC (and BC) are not as "male dominated" in culture as they were in the 20th Century....lot of current students (and youngah alumni) who aren't as into football (or the football game being the centerpiece of the Fall weekend) as they were in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Society has changed somewhat in the last 10-20 years in that youth sports/activities have taken full precedent ovah going to your alma mater's football game on Saturdays. The Patriots have definitely become almost the full focus for most of the fans of football in NE this century....leaves little room for many casual fans (non or disinterested alumni) to go to a BC, Harvard, UMass or HC game on a Saturday. We've talked about the internet/TV already bleeding away game-day attendance already...

The Northeast is different from many other parts of the country...there really isn't a huge State U that many rally around to support athletically in the states of NE/NY.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I really wish UVM had football. I could care less about Hofstra and northeastern. But UVM based on where it is could absolutely pack it in to a decent sized stadium

You don't care about Northeastern because you're young and don't realize that UNH played NU in football virtually every year for over four decades until they shut down their program. For over two decades UNH and NU were in the same all sports league as well as Hockey East mates. Even when they weren't in the same league during the 60's and 70's, UNH always played NU in hoop and other sports. When Hofstra upgraded their football program to I-AA and joined UNH in the A-10, they were in the same all sports league as UNH. Both were important to UNH at that time. But if you read correctly, I wasn't bemoaning their departure, but making the point that Stony Brook and Albany have more than filled the void left by Northeastern and Hofstra. And because both are public institutions and members of America East, they are more important to UNH these days.

As for UVM, it was great back in the day when UNH's Homecoming opponent rotated between Maine and Vermont. But Catamount fans weren't packing it in at Centennial Field and they cut their program after the 1974 season. Forty years later there is no groundswell of interest in football at UVM. If you read the AE Message Board, you'll see there is little to no interest in having football. Not sure why you think UVM would pack a decent sized stadium? And only UNH Alumni in their 60's or older will recall UVM Football.

[dgtw]

A state that elects a Socialist to the Senate isn't likely to want college football.


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[32counter]

UVM has brought back club football.You gotta start somewhere.

http://www.uvmfootball.com/ClubSocial.aspx?clubId=54683&

[UNHWildcat18]

You don't care about Northeastern because you're young and don't realize that UNH played NU in football virtually every year for over four decades until they shut down their program. For over two decades UNH and NU were in the same all sports league as well as Hockey East mates. Even when they weren't in the same league during the 60's and 70's, UNH always played NU in hoop and other sports. When Hofstra upgraded their football program to I-AA and joined UNH in the A-10, they were in the same all sports league as UNH. Both were important to UNH at that time. But if you read correctly, I wasn't bemoaning their departure, but making the point that Stony Brook and Albany have more than filled the void left by Northeastern and Hofstra. And because both are public institutions and members of America East, they are more important to UNH these days.

As for UVM, it was great back in the day when UNH's Homecoming opponent rotated between Maine and Vermont. But Catamount fans weren't packing it in at Centennial Field and they cut their program after the 1974 season. Forty years later there is no groundswell of interest in football at UVM. If you read the AE Message Board, you'll see there is little to no interest in having football. Not sure why you think UVM would pack a decent sized stadium? And only UNH Alumni in their 60's or older will recall UVM Football.

Fair enough I'm not old enough to appreciate NU. I think if UVM had the money and made a decent stadium Burlington would support the team. Not sure how it was in the 70s but I do see that board and yeah varsity football will never return to UVM.

[lydiabixby]

I like this discussion. Because it has held a reasonable tone throughout with some excellent cross Country and cross cultural views being stated rather well and without acrimony.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Forty years later no groundswell of interest is allowed to happen for football at UVM and, for that matter BU and Northeastern.

FIFY

[Laker]

UVM has brought back club football.You gotta start somewhere.

http://www.uvmfootball.com/ClubSocial.aspx?clubId=54683&

http://uvmbookstore.uvm.edu/outerweb/product_images/11949497l.jpg

[kdinva]

http://uvmbookstore.uvm.edu/outerweb/product_images/11949497l.jpg

VCU has a similar T-shirt...

[Laker]

VCU has a similar T-shirt...

Any chance of them starting up football?

[KPSUL]

Any chance of them starting up football?

I would say no on VCU. The campus is right in the middle of Richmond, and there is no existing stadium. The old City Stadium where University of Richmond used to play is home for a minor league soccer team and has been configured differently. VCU has a lot of commuter students and limited housing beyond Freshman year. I really don't think the VCU community would provide the support needed to build a new football program.

No on Vermont also. I think they are perfectly happy without football. They'd have no recruiting base. Unlike UNH which is an hour drive from metro Boston, UVM is up near the Canadian border and across Lake Champlain from the least populated region of northeastern NY state. The few very promising Vermont HS football players tend to go to UNH.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I would say no on VCU. The campus is right in the middle of Richmond, and there is no existing stadium. The old City Stadium where University of Richmond used to play is home for a minor league soccer team and has been configured differently. VCU has a lot of commuter students and limited housing beyond Freshman year. I really don't think the VCU community would provide the support needed to build a new football program.

No on Vermont also. I think they are perfectly happy without football. They'd have no recruiting base. Unlike UNH which is an hour drive from metro Boston, UVM is up near the Canadian border and across Lake Champlain from the least populated region of northeastern NY state. The few very promising Vermont HS football players tend to go to UNH.

David Ball, legendary UNH WR, was one such player.

[Go Green]

No on Vermont also. I think they are perfectly happy without football. They'd have no recruiting base. Unlike UNH which is an hour drive from metro Boston, UVM is up near the Canadian border and across Lake Champlain from the least populated region of northeastern NY state..

This reality is reflected in the results of the NH-Vt High School All-Star games.

http://www.maplesugarbowl.com/facts.html

[Laker]

This reality is reflected in the results of the NH-Vt High School All-Star games.

http://www.maplesugarbowl.com/facts.html

I'd say so. OVERALL SERIES 46-13-2 IN FAVOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

[Mattymc727]

The Maple Sugar Bowl is a shell of what it used to be. After so many dominant years, the Shriners decided to even the playing field by saying NH can only have 2 players MAX per school, and certain amounts per division. While none of those restrictions applied to VT. Even with all of those restrictions, NH still dominates the game.

NH has started the CHAD EAST WEST all-star game that now takes the best players from NH, so the Shrine Maple Sugar bowl doesnt even have the best players in it. The Shriners should change it to NH Vs Maine or Mass. Doesnt do Vermont any good to lose every year to the NH jv squad.

[dgtw]

I looked it up and Vermont only has about 30 or so high school football teams and one is dropping the sport due to low participation. With the concussion concerns, the numbers there may decline further.


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[mainejeff]

I don't think that the lack of fan support for football in the northeast has anything to do with football, per se. I think the reasons you see lower attendance for college football games in the northeast is largely societal.

A bit of background: I grew up in Maine. I went to UMaine. Then I went to grad school at a power five school in the South. The differences in relationships my southern and midwestern friends there have with their alma maters are enormous. Obviously I love UMaine (heck, it leads me to post here despite my ambivalent at best feeling toward the school sponsoring football), but the continuing ties I will have in my life to my school pale in comparison to those who went to southern schools.

I met a lot of people who were born into families that were "Clemson families" or "Carolina families" or "UGA families." Mom went to UGA. Dad went to UGA. Mom was in Sorority A. Dad was in the brother Fraternity. Dad used family/fraternal/UGA connections to get a job at a good firm in a city in the south. Son was raised either with UGA season tickets, or going to/hosting UGA watch parties every Saturday. Son was always going to UGA. Son pledged dad's fraternity. Son met his wife at UGA. Son either is going to work with Dad after law school, or going to use family/fraternal/UGA connections to get a job. The cycle will, largely, continue.

I realize this is a generalization, but the social fabric of the south is much more tied into tradition, and continuity, than it is in the Northeast. The state universities are larger. The Greek system is stronger (heck in Alabama UA Greek alums run the state). People marry younger.

Compare that to the northeast. You will occasionally see a "Bowdoin family" or a "Harvard family" but those things generally mean something different than being a "UVA family" even though UVA is also a fantastic school. Part of it is that state flagships are smaller. Part is that, because when the northeast publics were created there were already a number of very fine liberal arts colleges in the region, that the publics focus a lot more on engineering/technical/job training type degrees than liberal arts. The liberal arts students go to a panoply of small colleges. UMaine had a Greek system, but it was small, and you don't see those relationships carry forward as much into careers.

I don't think anyone expects people to go to a northeastern university and establish their life the way it is expected in the south, even at the Catholic schools. The expectation isn't that you will join a fraternity and create a brotherhood for life. The expectation isn't that you will find your spouse in college. The expectation isn't that you will walk out of college/grad school and into the career you will have forever using your college connections. The expectation is that you will go to college, then move to the city (pick your city) and that is when you start figuring out life. It's less settled.

If your ties to your school started at birth, and not at age 18, you will feel more connected to your school and want to go back to it for social events. If you met your spouse at your school, or if you met the best friends you'll have your entire life at your school, you will all want to reconvene back there as much as possible. If your coworkers are your fellow alums, you will keep your school at the forefront of your life.

It isn't that I, or anyone else who went to a northeast school, aren't proud of that school, or didn't enjoy our four years there, but that's what it was. Four years. There was a period of four years before it, and there will (hopefully) be many more periods of four years after it. We'll go to reunions, maybe one or two games a year, but that's about it. Last year I went to one UMaine football game. I will go see the hockey team when they play in Portland. If the hockey or basketball team makes either the Garden for the Hockey East finals or a conference final, I will go. I go to the Frozen Fenway event in Boston when that happens. But that's about it.

+++

[ccd494]

NH has started the CHAD EAST WEST all-star game that now takes the best players from NH, so the Shrine Maple Sugar bowl doesnt even have the best players in it. The Shriners should change it to NH Vs Maine or Mass. Doesnt do Vermont any good to lose every year to the NH jv squad.

The Shriner's in Maine already run an East/West all-star game, the Lobster Bowl. I would think it is very unlikely to change to a vs. NH game because a.) that would cut the number of participants from Maine in half and b.) once you get much north of Portland no one really gives a **** about New Hampshire.

[KPSUL]

The Shriner's in Maine already run an East/West all-star game, the Lobster Bowl. I would think it is very unlikely to change to a vs. NH game because a.) that would cut the number of participants from Maine in half and b.) once you get much north of Portland no one really gives a **** about New Hampshire.

But I'd assume they've heard of it's existance? There are NH ads in Uncle Henry's. Actually, since both games provide funding to the Shriner's hospitals; the more games the better. The only reason to change the current set-up would be if they could raise more $$$.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In PA there are a ton of different HS AS games, some between regions, some between states. The biggest among them is the "Big 33" game in Hershey where many of the state players from Ohio and Pennsylvania play before heading to P5 schools.

Point being there's nothing stopping a "Lobster Bowl" in Maine and a ME/NH game too if they so desired.

[ccd494]

[/B]
But I'd assume they've heard of it's existance? There are NH ads in Uncle Henry's. Actually, since both games provide funding to the Shriner's hospitals; the more games the better. The only reason to change the current set-up would be if they could raise more $$$.

Well, yeah. But people in Central and Northern Maine don't have New Hampshire as their bogeyman that they want to test their best football players against. It's Portland. If you live in the Central Maine football heartland (Fairfield, Winslow, Waterville, etc.), you don't hear anything about NH high school sports. You just see on the Portland TV station how great Thornton Academy or Portland High School or Cheverus are. And you say "Our kids are just as good/fast/strong/tough!" So you drive to Biddeford every summer to see them prove that. You really don't care if (Lafayette commit) Austin McCrum can carve up a New Hampshire all star secondary. You want to know if your boys can outplay him.

[ccd494]

Point being there's nothing stopping a "Lobster Bowl" in Maine and a ME/NH game too if they so desired.

Until the kids start picking one or the other, and the southern Maine kids all want to play against New Hampshire, and the Central/Eastern Mainers get bent out of shape because they weren't invited to that game, or the Lobster Bowl has lost its muster, or that those kids get to play on a nice field at UNE while the Lobster Bowl is still in the pit of a stadium Biddeford High plays at, then there will be a rule that forces kids from certain regions to split the games, then the south will get bent out of shape that the north is telling them what to do again, when everyone knows the best athletes are from the south every year so why do we even listen to the northerners.....

The politics of Maine high school sports is a carefully balanced tower. Too many changes and it will topple.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Until the kids start picking one or the other, and the southern Maine kids all want to play against New Hampshire, and the Central/Eastern Mainers get bent out of shape because they weren't invited to that game, or the Lobster Bowl has lost its muster, or that those kids get to play on a nice field at UNE while the Lobster Bowl is still in the pit of a stadium Biddeford High plays at, then there will be a rule that forces kids from certain regions to split the games, then the south will get bent out of shape that the north is telling them what to do again, when everyone knows the best athletes are from the south every year so why do we even listen to the northerners.....

The politics of Maine high school sports is a carefully balanced tower. Too many changes and it will topple.

Understood politics would make this game a challenge.

Pennsylvania's politics are different but it remains a massive state that still is pretty much a hotbed of high school football. There are so many programs that there are tons of different all-star games, some involving P5-level players, others involving high school kids in their final competitive games.

[Mattymc727]

The real question is, whether the Maine kids could even compete with the NH kids...Vermont cant, but they have a population half that of NH. Maine and NH have equal populations, but different HS football circles and cultures. I dont see how Maine could compete unless NH had restrictions just like they do for the current Maple Sugar Bowl.

[aceinthehole]

Back in 2013, the Governors Cup, an interstate high school all-star game between Connecticut and Rhode Island, was discontinued.


For 14 years, the best high school senior football players in Rhode Island have hopped on a bus and traveled to Connecticut to take on their counterparts from the next state over.
...
The Governor’s Cup, the name of the game played between the two states, has been discontinued for now, with Connecticut opting out of the game and Rhode Island filling the void with an intra-state game featuring teams comprised of players from the eastern and western sides of the states.
...
The game will offer the opportunity for twice as many Rhode Island players to compete in a summer all-star game – with two teams instead of one – and it will be played at the Bryant University football field, Bulldog Stadium. The past few years, the Governor’s Cup had taken place at the University of Connecticut’s Rentschler Field.

Prior to this year, Rhode Island had endured a tough run against Connecticut, losing the last 10 meetings and falling in 11 of the 14 total games.

Yet, that wasn’t a huge factor in the discontinuation of the game, as Rhode Island was on the verge of winning last season before a late goal line stand by Connecticut ended the hopes of an upset.

Green believes that this year’s senior class in Rhode Island is among the strongest ever and could have given Connecticut another close game. But at the end of the day, there were a number of factors that led the Cup’s discontinuation. Connecticut thought it was time to move on, as it will be having an intra-state game of its own instead.

http://johnstonsunrise.net/stories/ri-all-star-game-set-to-replace-governors-cup-football-game,83418

[Brad82]

Ace-good post. Connecticut never won that game while played in RI !!
Connecticut had too many sponsorships/$$ on their side for RI to keep up with. That is why game had to be played over in Ct. all the time in the end.
A shame,but money talks.

[KPSUL]

Ace-good post. Connecticut never won that game while played in RI !!
Connecticut had too many sponsorships/$$ on their side for RI to keep up with. That is why game had to be played over in Ct. all the time in the end.
A shame,but money talks.

How about the mob bosses in Pawtucket and Providence? Couldn't they have come up with a little sponsorship $$$ ?

[Brad82]

KPSUL,no- the city schools are doing nothing in FB.
That old school regime is no longer really around. Some of those kids Dads are incarcerated.
No corp. sponsorships either. RI is not a FB state or any type of sports state. Hoops and baseball putting out a lot more college players.
Prep schools growing. Not ISL affiliated. Different demographics in immigration-do not play FB or any sports. No spring ball. Hendricken has won 6 state championships in a row! FB still important,but to a smaller group of people.