Calling out the Ivies

[Stonewall D]

I, for one, would like to see the Ivy League schools in the FCS playoffs. Every year there are at least two Ivy League teams in the top 25. I think it would be great for FCS football for the Ivies to join the post season festivities.

[Lehigh'98]

Great idea for a new topic to discuss here :)

Anyway, if that happened Harvard would be going on their 15th consecutive National Championship. It would be boring!!

[citdog]

funny who choses to segregate...

[Stonewall D]

Notre Dame caved into the idea of playing in the post season. If ND can, it seems that the Ivies should as well.

[DFW HOYA]

Notre Dame caved into the idea of playing in the post season. If ND can, it seems that the Ivies should as well.

ND caved when the Eastern sportswriters would no longer award a national title to a team whose season ended Nov. 26.

(That, and the money the Cotton Bowl threw at them in 1970.)

But here's the real hypocrisy: the Ivy League sponsors 32 sports. How many are eligible for NCAA and/or national title tournaments? 31.

[RichH2]

The annual post season discussion on the Ivy board. The same issues,objections yada,yada yada. The general opinion is pro playoffs. As it is every year. Until Harvard and Yale decide that Ivy football need not end with their GAME nothing will change.

[JSUSoutherner]

Notre Dame caved into the idea of playing in the post season. If ND can, it seems that the Ivies should as well.
Notre Dame needs to quit with their independent garbage and join the B1G already...

Ivies should also join the post season.

[JayJ79]

but then they would get rolled by the regular FCS playoff teams, and their illusions would be shattered

[Sader87]

Ivies have it right imo.... a minority opinion I know, but I'm sticking with it.

[JMUNJ08]

but then they would get rolled by the regular FCS playoff teams, and their illusions would be shattered

Who are you kidding? They would get the NEC/ Patriot/ PFL champ at least in the first round....

[Bisonoline]

Dont care what the Ivy does. If they want to be irrelevant and act like ignorant jerk wads Im good with that.

[citdog]

Ivies have it right imo.... a minority opinion I know, but I'm sticking with it.

You are so wrong it is incredible.

[Green26]

I'm fine with what the Ivies do. Their call. Comes from a majority of the presidents. I could argue it either way. The Ivies are usually ranked about where they should be in the polls. I'm sure the majority of players and coaches would like to be in the playoffs, but they know what the deal is, and they came to the Ivies. When I played, there were no playoffs, but I was happy to be done by Thanksgiving. The Ivies, D-III, the Southwestern conference, and perhaps the Patriot league and schools like USD, understand what amateur athletics are about.

[Green26]

Dont care what the Ivy does. If they want to be irrelevant and act like ignorant jerk wads Im good with that.

The Ivies are very relevant. They understand how the game should be played. People like yourself are the jerks. I can assure you that the Ivies don't care about people like you, and have zero respect for you and your types.

[Bisonoline]

The Ivies are very relevant. They understand how the game should be played. People like yourself are the jerks. I can assure you that the Ivies don't care about people like you, and have zero respect for you and your types.

Thats why with attitudes like that they are irrelevant. Im sure they appreciate you speaking for them.xlolx

[Sader87]

4 or 5 games after playing 11 (or 12) football games in the regular season is foolish imo....

It what it is....just don't think it is worth playing out for what is essentially a "national championship" that is very arbitrary....i.e. a mix of schools that have no real ties....

[UNHWildcat18]

I wish they participated. While the first round is tough for everyone attendance wise due to thanksgiving, the ivies have a good following and would have nice attendance for games which would look better on TV.

[UNHWildcat18]

4 or 5 games after playing 11 (or 12) football games in the regular season is foolish imo....

It what it is....just don't think it is worth playing out for what is essentially a "national championship" that is very arbitrary....i.e. a mix of schools that have no real ties....


??????? So what ties does big ten Iowa have with Clemson over the years? Besides both being in a power conference....?

[Catamount87]

funny who choses to segregate...

For once, we agree.

Oh wait, we also agree on something else, Furman sucks. :D

[PantherRob82]

Notre Dame needs to quit with their independent garbage and join the B1G already...

Ivies should also join the post season.

They wouldn't join the B1G since they already half joined the ACC (I think they play 4-5 ACC teams a per year)

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

They wouldn't join the B1G since they already half joined the ACC (I think they play 4-5 ACC teams a per year)

And they joined Hockey East when they could have gone B1G and had a home for their ice hockey program when the B1G imploded the WCHA and CCHA.

[UNIFanSince1983]

ND just wants so badly to be an East Coast school. They would never join the B1G because of this. They think they are above it.

[Son of Eli]

I, along with most fans of Ivy League Football, would love to see Ivy League participation in the FCS playoffs. The main issue amongst the skeptics seems to be balancing final exams with a potential 15 game season. Any advice on that would be appreciated so I can take the argument back to the Ivy League message board. I'm on a mission from God to get this done! :)

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

4 or 5 games after playing 11 (or 12) football games in the regular season is foolish imo....

It what it is....just don't think it is worth playing out for what is essentially a "national championship" that is very arbitrary....i.e. a mix of schools that have no real ties....

But you have no problem with a basketball national championship with six more games after 28 regular season games against a bunch of schools that run semi-professional operations with little regard to academics? What ties does Holy Cross have to the PAC12, Big 12, B1g, SEC, etc. let alone the MAC, MWC, CUSA, etc. other than being relevant in the days of George Kaftan, Bob Cousy, Tommy Heinsohn, Jack Foley and Togo Palazzi?

Just like last year, you should have made a trip to Durham on Saturday to see playoffs first hand. The Colgate team I saw celebrating after winning a playoff game sure didn't think this quest for a national championship was foolish! Maybe some day Holy Cross will win the Patriot AQ and you'll get to experience the playoffs first hand.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I, along with most fans of Ivy League Football, would love to see Ivy League participation in the FCS playoffs. The main issue amongst the skeptics seems to be balancing final exams with a potential 15 game season. Any advice on that would be appreciated so I can take the argument back to the Ivy League message board. I'm on a mission from God to get this done! :)

UNH had two semi-final runs (2013, 2014) that definitely ran into final exams. I didn't hear of any academic casualties and we continue to graduate players at a very good rate. Over these past twelve years, there have also been multiple quarterfinal appearances. Villanova, Richmond and Delaware have won the national championship without academic issues. Furman and Wofford have gone deep into the playoffs. There are many FCS schools that care about academics for their athletes that manage to balance final exams. And to my knowledge, none of them have a "gentlemen's C" unwritten policy.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I, along with most fans of Ivy League Football, would love to see Ivy League participation in the FCS playoffs. The main issue amongst the skeptics seems to be balancing final exams with a potential 15 game season. Any advice on that would be appreciated so I can take the argument back to the Ivy League message board. I'm on a mission from God to get this done! :)

The exams question is a true Maguffin. IL Men's and women's lacrosse players routinely have issues with NCAA postseason interrupting finals (not to mention - gasp! - a corporate-sponsored postseason tournament), but none of the Ivy League presidents seem to have anything to say about that.

Whenever the Ivy League should be in the playoffs argument happens I always use this link, a piece I wrote some years ago that still is true today:

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/705-plain-and-simple-the-ivy-playoff-ban-is-discrimination

[Houndawg]

I, along with most fans of Ivy League Football, would love to see Ivy League participation in the FCS playoffs. The main issue amongst the skeptics seems to be balancing final exams with a potential 15 game season. Any advice on that would be appreciated so I can take the argument back to the Ivy League message board. I'm on a mission from God to get this done! :)

I think the Ivies lower the quality of FCS football and are irrelevant within the division. They would be better off going D2 and competing with their athletic peers. As for the long season, Stanford seems to be able to handle it.

[Ivytalk]

I'm marginally pro-playoff for Ivy FB (and getting less so by the year), but I understand and respect Green26's point. When Harvard had post-Christmas final exams, which it did until recently, the "final exam" contra argument was particularly weak. Now, it appears that there's no real player or alumni pressure to change the system. If big-dollar donations were withheld on the basis of playoff participation, the Ivy presidents would likely change their tune. But they're not, and they won't.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'd love for the Ivies to enter the playoffs. I think schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Penn would have 10k+ for a playoff game given the current regionalization format. I said before that a UNH-Yale/UNH-Harvard game would definitely creates some local/regional interest. Likewise with a Lehigh-Penn/Lafayette-Penn/Delaware-Penn playoff game. You could go on and on with enticing match-ups given the number of teams in the Northeast.

An Ivy League team advancing deep in the playoffs would also create some national interest. I promise you that if H, Y or P were playing in the semifinals or finals on ESPN(2) there would be emphasis on the game and on the subdivision.

I grew up watching IL football so there's a vested interest in it. I believe the top teams in the Ivy League are nationally good MOST years. The facilities, coaching and recruiting are all top-notch. I'd love to see them participate....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm marginally pro-playoff for Ivy FB (and getting less so by the year), but I understand and respect Green26's point. When Harvard had post-Christmas final exams, which it did until recently, the "final exam" contra argument was particularly weak. Now, it appears that there's no real player or alumni pressure to change the system. If big-dollar donations were withheld on the basis of playoff participation, the Ivy presidents would likely change their tune. But they're not, and they won't.

I'm starting to think NCAA reform of the FCS playoff system is the only way this will change. The only way IL player and alumni pressure will happen is if the entire FCS world is clamoring to get into the playoffs because the alternative would be folly.

[REALBird]

I said it in another post. They only play FCS football because it's Division I, and you have to play Division I football, or not field a football team to stay Division I in Basketball. If they could drop to D-III in football and play all other sports at the D-I level I'm sure they would. But as someone else pointed out early, it's hypocritical when you participate in 31/32 sports post season competitions, but not Football.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I said it in another post. They only play FCS football because it's Division I, and you have to play Division I football, or not field a football team to stay Division I in Basketball. If they could drop to D-III in football and play all other sports at the D-I level I'm sure they would. But as someone else pointed out early, it's hypocritical when you participate in 31/32 sports post season competitions, but not Football.

I don't believe that to be true at all. Ego would not allow themselves to be relegated to playing the likes of Williams, Amherst, MIT etc. The IL wants nothing to do with those schools imo. In fact, if FBS football wasn't so infested with greed I think the majority of IL schools would still prefer to be in the top subdivision playing mostly top academic schools.

A Harvard schedule like this is not crazy...

@ Tulane
Duke
@ Brown
@ Princeton
Dartmouth
Army (Fenway)
@ Cornell
@ Penn
Columbia
Yale

[ST_Lawson]

Could you even imagine a Harvard vs Notre Dame game if Harvard was still decent in the FBS level?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't believe that to be true at all. Ego would not allow themselves to be relegated to playing the likes of Williams, Amherst, MIT etc. The IL wants nothing to do with those schools imo. In fact, if FBS football wasn't so infested with greed I think the majority of IL schools would still prefer to be in the top subdivision playing mostly top academic schools.

A Harvard schedule like this is not crazy...

@ Tulane
Duke
@ Brown
@ Princeton
Dartmouth
Army (Fenway)
@ Cornell
@ Penn
Columbia
Yale

Other than misspelling "Lafayette" for the home opener, the rest could certainly be possible if they were FBS.

[DFW HOYA]

I said it in another post. They only play FCS football because it's Division I, and you have to play Division I football, or not field a football team to stay Division I in Basketball. If they could drop to D-III in football and play all other sports at the D-I level I'm sure they would. But as someone else pointed out early, it's hypocritical when you participate in 31/32 sports post season competitions, but not Football.

Division III was not and is not an option.

[Lehigh'98]

I think the Ivies lower the quality of FCS football and are irrelevant within the division. They would be better off going D2 and competing with their athletic peers. As for the long season, Stanford seems to be able to handle it.

That's your opinion, but doesn't make it true. There would be years where they won some playoff games. Maybe not a NC, but alot of conferences don't have a prayer at that. For as bad as the Patriot League is, even before schollies, they won playoff games, many more than the OVC, MEAC, Big South, PFL, but not nearly as many as the big conferences. Absolutely no reason the Ivies wouldn't be the same. So basically if you don't want them in, you don't want the other smaller conferences either.

[WMTribe90]

If WM can compete if the playoffs (twice going to the semis) and maintain graduation rates in the 90%+ range there is no reason the Ivies can't participate. WM holds final exams before Christmas as well. If the Ivies can participate in the NCAA basketball tournament, there is also no excuse for not competing in the FCS championship tournament. The basketball tourney is way more disruptive as teams play mid week for the first couple rounds. At least the football games are played on weekends and on campus (no travel) for the host team. I agree an extra 4-5 weeks is a lot to add to a football season, but let's be honest here. One, maybe two at best, Ivy squads would make the playoffs each year and most years that team will be eliminated in the first or second round. Once every four or five years, one Ivy team might make a deep run into the playoffs that would encroach on finals. I participated in the playoffs and was one more win away from studying for finals while preparing to play a game. Sure it would have been a challenge. Balancing demanding academics and DI athletics always is a challenge. But, there's not a player on the team that would have traded a little extra study time for a once in a life time experience. This is what the Ivies are denying their football student athletes. An opportunity to compete for the highest prize available in their chosen sport. What true competitor turns down that opportunity and challenge?

Part of me wants to see the Ivies in the playoffs. Part of me wants to maintain the recruiting niche of a high academic FCS program willing to compete with the "commoners" for the opportunity to play for a championship!

[32counter]

This post is a non sequitur.Yale-Harvard had 53,000 in the Yale Bowl last weekend.My 4 tickets were $50 a POP and parking was $30.Joining the FCS playoffs would be terribly anticlimactic and would be silly.

http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-footbl/2015-16/releases/20151112g3c8in

Instead of calling the Ivies out,the FCS playoff structure should be called out.The big boys of the FCS should formulate their own post season and have more interregional scheduling of games during the regular season and get a real TV deal cut with a network which sends money back into school bank accounts.The existing model doesn't work for continued viability.

The poster should call the MEAC out for dropping out of the FCS playoffs and getting a check from ESPN for $1,000,000 annually.Change the title of the post.Get it right.

[REALBird]

This post is a non sequitur.Yale-Harvard had 53,000 in the Yale Bowl last weekend.My 4 tickets were $50 a POP and parking was $30.Joining the FCS playoffs would be terribly anticlimactic and would be silly.Instead of calling the Ivies out,the FCS playoff structure should be called out.The big boys of the FCS should formulate their own post season and have more interregional scheduling of games during the regular season and get a real TV deal cut with a network which sends money back into school bank accounts.The existing model doesn't work for continued viability.

The poster should call the MEAC out for dropping out of the FCS playoffs and getting a check from ESPN for $1,000,000 annually.Change the title of the post.Get it right.


I like your thinking, but the reality is the FBS schools have already drawn the line in the sand when it comes to the "have" and the "have nots". The P5 is slowly moving toward only playing each other in conference and out of conference. They've ballooned so much that even in years where they don't play conference opponents they can pick a bottom tier Big 10, Big XII, SEC, Pac-12 or ACC team.

Boise State is the only relevant team in the MWC, NIU and maybe Toldeo in the MAC. A Temple in the AAC. You get my point.

The new CFB playoffs will now make SOS more important as long as the computer rankings are involved, and beating Boise doesn't mean as much as betting Minnesota who beat Wisconsin, who beat Iowa who beat Michigan State type of scenario.

Once they begin to expand, and BOWL games no longer become relevant and corporate sponsors start moving their money in other directions. Either the G5 will stay at that level for "pride" or they'll move back down (not likely). What's likely to occur is schools like the MVFC, Big Sky Conference and a few others will partner with those G5 schools to figure out what to do next. When/IF that discussion happens, I think it eventually trickles down to MBB and you'll possibly see the NCAA separate the divisions and reclassify membership. Division I, Division 1-AA, Division 1-AAA (non-scholarship/non-football members), Division II, Division III, etc,.

Just my gut feeling....Bowl games are gone in the next 5 years, or will be rebranded under the playoff structure. Still "Bowls" in names, but just more neutral site games until they figure out how to make it work like they did in Basketball. Regionalization will hit the top tier as well to keep attendance high at these games.

[Terry2889]

Could you even imagine a Harvard vs Notre Dame game if Harvard was still decent in the FBS level?
With their resources, Harvard could be relevant in the FBS tomorrow if they chose to....

[WMTribe90]

This post is a non sequitur.Yale-Harvard had 53,000 in the Yale Bowl last weekend.My 4 tickets were $50 a POP and parking was $30.Joining the FCS playoffs would be terribly anticlimactic and would be silly.

http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-footbl/2015-16/releases/20151112g3c8in

Instead of calling the Ivies out,the FCS playoff structure should be called out.The big boys of the FCS should formulate their own post season and have more interregional scheduling of games during the regular season and get a real TV deal cut with a network which sends money back into school bank accounts.The existing model doesn't work for continued viability.

The poster should call the MEAC out for dropping out of the FCS playoffs and getting a check from ESPN for $1,000,000 annually.Change the title of the post.Get it right.

Really, do you think the football player at Yale and Harvard would find competing for a National championship "anti-climatic"?

It's great the Yale-Harvard game is well attended and generates revenue. No reason the Ivies couldn't start their season a week earlier when everyone else in DI does to allow this game to occur before the playoffs. This does not have to be an either/or situation.

MEAC and SWAC have been called out and will continued to be called out for not fully participating in the playoffs. Having company doesn't make the Ivies lack of competitive spirit and less embarrassing. At least the MEAC and SWAC teams are hurting financially and need the paycheck. That I get. The IL's decision not to participate has little to nothing to do with finances and everything to do with elitism and not wanting to rub elbows with the rest of FCS for fear of being shown-up. It's okay to lose to Princeton, but god forbid you lose to (insert mid-tier academic university here).

[Bisonator]

Let them play with themselves.

[Son of Eli]

The exams question is a true Maguffin. IL Men's and women's lacrosse players routinely have issues with NCAA postseason interrupting finals (not to mention - gasp! - a corporate-sponsored postseason tournament), but none of the Ivy League presidents seem to have anything to say about that.

Whenever the Ivy League should be in the playoffs argument happens I always use this link, a piece I wrote some years ago that still is true today:

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/705-plain-and-simple-the-ivy-playoff-ban-is-discrimination


I have already reposted this excellent article several times on the Ivy League Voy message board. Thanks so much for writing it.

[Son of Eli]

Please get William & Mary to schedule Yale. They haven't played since 1987. William & Mary should play either HYP once a year.

[UNIFanSince1983]

I don't believe that to be true at all. Ego would not allow themselves to be relegated to playing the likes of Williams, Amherst, MIT etc. The IL wants nothing to do with those schools imo. In fact, if FBS football wasn't so infested with greed I think the majority of IL schools would still prefer to be in the top subdivision playing mostly top academic schools.

A Harvard schedule like this is not crazy...

@ Tulane
Duke
@ Brown
@ Princeton
Dartmouth
Army (Fenway)
@ Cornell
@ Penn
Columbia
Yale

Do you really think they would leave the northeast to play a game in Louisiana?

[dgtw]

I'm fine with the Ivy and the HBCUs boycotting the playoffs. It opens up an extra spot for an at-large team that really wants to be there.

The playoffs would conflict with final exams? Is that not an issue with all the spring sports that end late in the semester? How much class time do Final Four teams miss? They have tourney games on Thursdays, which I imagine interrupts classes much more than a Saturday football game.

[melloware13]

One of the best counters to the final exam argument is to look at Lacrosse and Baseball. Both go through the end of the spring semester (depending on the academic calendar). Look at the last at-larges this year. It's tough to say with any confidence that Harvard would do worse against Colgate or Dayton than WIU and UNH did, same with Dartmouth. I also think that given the nature of the schools, they could be placed almost anywhere in the bracket and draw (given that there's a city somewhat close).

[OL FU]

funny who choses to segregate...

The Ivies prefer their "safe" zones:D

[UNIFanSince1983]

It has been brought up about other sport and how it doesn't affect them with the finals schedules. How many Ivy sports are not competing in the highest level tournament for that sport?

If an Ivy were to get an invite to a bowl game would they be more likely to accept?

[Bisonoline]

One of the best counters to the final exam argument is to look at Lacrosse and Baseball. Both go through the end of the spring semester (depending on the academic calendar). Look at the last at-larges this year. It's tough to say with any confidence that Harvard would do worse against Colgate or Dayton than WIU and UNH did, same with Dartmouth. I also think that given the nature of the schools, they could be placed almost anywhere in the bracket and draw (given that there's a city somewhat close).

Actually most schools are going through exams at those times with little ill effect. Its just an excuse so they dont have compete with anyone outside their little circle. Oh and its all in the name of tradition. xlolx

[Green26]

The Ivies prefer their "safe" zones:D

The original Ivy league athletic conference charter done in the mid-50's, when the official conference was formed, contained language restricting post-season play and athletic scholarships, I believe. While the language isn't/wasn't absolutely clear, this is/was the main sentence.

"The members of the Group shall not engage in post-season games or any other contests designed to settle sectional or other championships."

Under your view, the Ivies have been in their safe zone for at least 60 years, and long before the FCS playoffs were established.

[UNIFanSince1983]

The original Ivy league athletic conference charter done in the mid-50's, when the official conference was formed, contained language restricting post-season play and athletic scholarships, I believe. While the language isn't/wasn't absolutely clear, this is/was the main sentence.

"The members of the Group shall not engage in post-season games or any other contests designed to settle sectional or other championships."

Under your view, the Ivies have been in their safe zone for at least 60 years, and long before the FCS playoffs were established.

What has changed with EVERY OTHER SPORT since then?

Why is Cornell out there busting brackets in the NCAA tournament?

There was obviously a change at one point, and for some reason they wanted to not compete in football postseason while competing in every other sport.

[tribe_pride]

Please get William & Mary to schedule Yale. They haven't played since 1987. William & Mary should play either HYP once a year.

That would be great except for the fact that you guys start your seasons so late and it makes sense for W&M to schedule its first 3 weeks as OOC. This year's Hampton setup in the middle of the season was a bad thing causing our bye week as Week 2 and no recovery chance for the Tribe team. In a normal year, our last OOC game will be the first game of the season for Ivies so it makes only 1 chance and in a year like this year it was taken by our FBS matchup (which you have to give into the FBS team for scheduling purposes).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The original Ivy league athletic conference charter done in the mid-50's, when the official conference was formed, contained language restricting post-season play and athletic scholarships, I believe. While the language isn't/wasn't absolutely clear, this is/was the main sentence.

"The members of the Group shall not engage in post-season games or any other contests designed to settle sectional or other championships."

Under your view, the Ivies have been in their safe zone for at least 60 years, and long before the FCS playoffs were established.

The full text, which truly demonstrates the depth of the hypocrisy:


The members of the Group shall not engage in post-season games or any other contests designed to settle sectional or other championships. (NOTE: National Collegiate Athletic Association, Eastern College Athletic Conference, A.A.U., competitions and international competitions such as the games, meets and matches with Oxford and Cambridge Universities shall not be considered as post-season games or contests within the meaning of the above rule.)

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/705-plain-and-simple-the-ivy-playoff-ban-is-discrimination

[Cleets]

The Annual IVY debate... Not bad 6 pages
Some years it goes on for 10 pages, occasionally more

The hostility towards them is comical - even the passive aggressive comment from Citdog about them choosing segregation
Citdog, don't you come from a place that fought for the right to segregate..?
You of all people should be the most understanding

[OL FU]

The original Ivy league athletic conference charter done in the mid-50's, when the official conference was formed, contained language restricting post-season play and athletic scholarships, I believe. While the language isn't/wasn't absolutely clear, this is/was the main sentence.

"The members of the Group shall not engage in post-season games or any other contests designed to settle sectional or other championships."

Under your view, the Ivies have been in their safe zone for at least 60 years, and long before the FCS playoffs were established.

It was a joke. Albeit maybe not a good one but still geezxsmhx

[OL FU]

The Annual IVY debate... Not bad 6 pages
Some years it goes on for 10 pages, occasionally more

The hostility towards them is comical - even the passive aggressive comment from Citdog about them choosing segregation
Citdog, don't you come from a place that fought for the right to segregate..?
You of all people should be the most understanding

I really have nothing against the Ivies position. I do have sympathy for their fans(mostly on this message board) that would love to see them participate.

[RichH2]

The full text, which truly demonstrates the depth of the hypocrisy:



http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/705-plain-and-simple-the-ivy-playoff-ban-is-discrimination
So we circle back to the real reason why only football remains precluded by the Ivies,Harvard and Yale dont want games after theirs.

[bonarae]

but then they would get rolled by the regular FCS playoff teams, and their illusions would be shattered

See Dayton this season xsmhx


The annual post season discussion on the Ivy board. The same issues,objections yada,yada yada. The general opinion is pro playoffs. As it is every year. Until Harvard and Yale decide that Ivy football need not end with their GAME nothing will change.

That's their fault. The other 6 want in. When will this change? When all of the Forlorn 5 in the Big Dance finally get to zero?


Who are you kidding? They would get the NEC/ Patriot/ PFL champ at least in the first round....

I agree with this.


I'm fine with what the Ivies do. Their call. Comes from a majority of the presidents. I could argue it either way. The Ivies are usually ranked about where they should be in the polls. I'm sure the majority of players and coaches would like to be in the playoffs, but they know what the deal is, and they came to the Ivies. When I played, there were no playoffs, but I was happy to be done by Thanksgiving. The Ivies, D-III, the Southwestern conference, and perhaps the Patriot league and schools like USD, understand what amateur athletics are about.

But things truly change...


The Ivies are very relevant. They understand how the game should be played. People like yourself are the jerks. I can assure you that the Ivies don't care about people like you, and have zero respect for you and your types.

Not sure about this, but I respect the playoff-loving folks. See post below.


I wish they participated. While the first round is tough for everyone attendance wise due to thanksgiving, the ivies have a good following and would have nice attendance for games which would look better on TV.

I agree.


It what it is....just don't think it is worth playing out for what is essentially a "national championship" that is very arbitrary....i.e. a mix of schools that have no real ties....

Arbitrary? In what terms?


I, along with most fans of Ivy League Football, would love to see Ivy League participation in the FCS playoffs. The main issue amongst the skeptics seems to be balancing final exams with a potential 15 game season. Any advice on that would be appreciated so I can take the argument back to the Ivy League message board. I'm on a mission from God to get this done! :)

The concern is not really about finals. It is about the schedule, I believe.


The exams question is a true Maguffin. IL Men's and women's lacrosse players routinely have issues with NCAA postseason interrupting finals (not to mention - gasp! - a corporate-sponsored postseason tournament), but none of the Ivy League presidents seem to have anything to say about that.

Whenever the Ivy League should be in the playoffs argument happens I always use this link, a piece I wrote some years ago that still is true today:

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/705-plain-and-simple-the-ivy-playoff-ban-is-discrimination

I will try to read this sometime...


I think the Ivies lower the quality of FCS football and are irrelevant within the division. They would be better off going D2 and competing with their athletic peers. As for the long season, Stanford seems to be able to handle it.

Not possible at this point. My opinion to get the Ivies back to the playoffs is for the NCAA to restructure football divisions, that will create a division-independent football subdivision, making the Dayton rule history. And this'll make the NESCAC play OOC opponents again.


I'm starting to think NCAA reform of the FCS playoff system is the only way this will change. The only way IL player and alumni pressure will happen is if the entire FCS world is clamoring to get into the playoffs because the alternative would be folly.

I agree with this too. The NCAA needs to reform the FCS playoff system.


I'm marginally pro-playoff for Ivy FB (and getting less so by the year), but I understand and respect Green26's point. When Harvard had post-Christmas final exams, which it did until recently, the "final exam" contra argument was particularly weak. Now, it appears that there's no real player or alumni pressure to change the system. If big-dollar donations were withheld on the basis of playoff participation, the Ivy presidents would likely change their tune. But they're not, and they won't.

Unfortunately, we will all die before the Ivies will enter the playoffs? Maybe realistic. xbawlingx


In fact, if FBS football wasn't so infested with greed I think the majority of IL schools would still prefer to be in the top subdivision playing mostly top academic schools.

This. World War II I believe changed the landscape of college football. Chicago was already enjoying its football leave by that time...


Division III was not and is not an option.

See my reply to Houndawg's post for a possible (but maybe not feasible) option.


That's your opinion, but doesn't make it true. There would be years where they won some playoff games. Maybe not a NC, but alot of conferences don't have a prayer at that. For as bad as the Patriot League is, even before schollies, they won playoff games, many more than the OVC, MEAC, Big South, PFL, but not nearly as many as the big conferences. Absolutely no reason the Ivies wouldn't be the same. So basically if you don't want them in, you don't want the other smaller conferences either.

Hmm...


Instead of calling the Ivies out,the FCS playoff structure should be called out.The big boys of the FCS should formulate their own post season and have more interregional scheduling of games during the regular season and get a real TV deal cut with a network which sends money back into school bank accounts.The existing model doesn't work for continued viability.

Yes, I agree with this too, but greed is greed...


It's great the Yale-Harvard game is well attended and generates revenue. No reason the Ivies couldn't start their season a week earlier when everyone else in DI does to allow this game to occur before the playoffs. This does not have to be an either/or situation.

MEAC and SWAC have been called out and will continued to be called out for not fully participating in the playoffs. Having company doesn't make the Ivies lack of competitive spirit and less embarrassing. At least the MEAC and SWAC teams are hurting financially and need the paycheck. That I get. The IL's decision not to participate has little to nothing to do with finances and everything to do with elitism and not wanting to rub elbows with the rest of FCS for fear of being shown-up. It's okay to lose to Princeton, but god forbid you lose to (insert mid-tier academic university here).

I agree with this, but the things the Ivies need to be fixed regarding football are:
1. Scheduling
2. Playoff participation
3. Acceptance of a potential loss to a state university not ever played before


I'm fine with the Ivy and the HBCUs boycotting the playoffs. It opens up an extra spot for an at-large team that really wants to be there.

Some years it does get deserving teams, others do not. xsmhx


One of the best counters to the final exam argument is to look at Lacrosse and Baseball. Both go through the end of the spring semester (depending on the academic calendar). Look at the last at-larges this year. It's tough to say with any confidence that Harvard would do worse against Colgate or Dayton than WIU and UNH did, same with Dartmouth. I also think that given the nature of the schools, they could be placed almost anywhere in the bracket and draw (given that there's a city somewhat close).

Baseball ends first weekend of May, and they give the Ivy champion two to three weeks off before the Road to Omaha. I don't know about the Lacrosse thing.


If an Ivy were to get an invite to a bowl game would they be more likely to accept?

The Bowl Selection Committee may not.


The original Ivy league athletic conference charter done in the mid-50's, when the official conference was formed, contained language restricting post-season play and athletic scholarships, I believe. While the language isn't/wasn't absolutely clear, this is/was the main sentence.

"The members of the Group shall not engage in post-season games or any other contests designed to settle sectional or other championships."

Under your view, the Ivies have been in their safe zone for at least 60 years, and long before the FCS playoffs were established.

Which sports are/were under this? Didn't they make exceptions for other sports? That's up for debate today. xtwocentsx


What has changed with EVERY OTHER SPORT since then?

Why is Cornell out there busting brackets in the NCAA tournament?

There was obviously a change at one point, and for some reason they wanted to not compete in football postseason while competing in every other sport.

I agree, but we don't know what happened to the changes in other sports around 50's-60's.


So we circle back to the real reason why only football remains precluded by the Ivies,Harvard and Yale dont want games after theirs.

I'm afraid this has to be the only acceptable reason... xsmhx

[Go Green]

The original Ivy league athletic conference charter done in the mid-50's, when the official conference was formed, contained language restricting post-season play and athletic scholarships, I believe. While the language isn't/wasn't absolutely clear, this is/was the main sentence.

"The members of the Group shall not engage in post-season games or any other contests designed to settle sectional or other championships."

Under your view, the Ivies have been in their safe zone for at least 60 years, and long before the FCS playoffs were established.

The original Ivy agreement contained several rules that have since been thrown out the window. For instance:

1) Nine games a season
2) No games scheduled more than a year in advance
3) No practices outside fall.

[Go Green]

A Harvard schedule like this is not crazy...

@ Tulane
Duke
@ Brown
@ Princeton
Dartmouth
Army (Fenway)
@ Cornell
@ Penn
Columbia
Yale

Penn actually did pretty much this throughout the 1950s. The results were not pretty.

Basically, I think good Ivy teams can do what Army does. If Army can hang with someone, then so can the top Ivy teams.

The weaker Ivy teams would be crucified.

[2ram]

This post is a non sequitur.Yale-Harvard had 53,000 in the Yale Bowl last weekend.My 4 tickets were $50 a POP and parking was $30.Joining the FCS playoffs would be terribly anticlimactic and would be silly.


but what does that have to do with the other six schools in the IL?

i wonder if they guys from Lehigh/Lafayette feel the same way, given they play the games oldest rivalry, and still manage to compete in the post season.

[Stonewall D]

Seriously, in retrospect I should have named this thread "calling on the Ivies" or "Encouraging the Ivies". Most of us would love to have post season participation by the Ivies. I would like to see my school, Richmond, schedule a game with an IL school. I want to understand what Ivy League fans thought of FCS football.

[bonarae]

Seriously, in retrospect I should have named this thread "calling on the Ivies" or "Encouraging the Ivies". Most of us would love to have post season participation by the Ivies. I would like to see my school, Richmond, schedule a game with an IL school. I want to understand what Ivy League fans thought of FCS football.

I agree with you.

As an evolving "FCS generalist" (I post about scholarship FCS here most of the time), the Ivies, through their intentional exclusion from the Road to Frisco, are missing out not only on what makes the FCS a "stepping stone" to the FBS (G5 of course), but also many issues surrounding the playoffs, realignments, scheduling against other scholarship FCS/D2's, etc. However, as a consequence, Ivy fans often shy away from national FCS boards like this one because of the earlier posts in this and other similar threads (especially by Bison fans) that say negatively about the Ivy schools.

If the playoffs will be fixed in time, the Presidents may reconsider their stance after all. But I'm afraid we may all die before it may see the light of day.

[Ivytalk]

The Annual IVY debate... Not bad 6 pages
Some years it goes on for 10 pages, occasionally more

The hostility towards them is comical - even the passive aggressive comment from Citdog about them choosing segregation
Citdog, don't you come from a place that fought for the right to segregate..?
You of all people should be the most understanding
Yeah, and we have to hear from the faux -elitist likes of Houndawg -- Houndawg!! -- that the Ivies are watering down the quality of FCS football.xrolleyesx

[DFW HOYA]

Let's state the obvious; the current playoff structure is not appealing to the Ivy League (and the SWAC, which doesn't get the same level of criticism). On a purely practical level, the idea that Harvard wants to take a national TV audience and 52,126 at the Yale Bowl for a season finale and end it a week later with a forgettable loss on ESPN3 before 2,217 in Towson, MD doesn't sell.

[UNIFanSince1983]

So Harvard volleyball is playing Nebraska in the national tournament this weekend. Strange that doesn't affect their studies for finals but some how the football players who would be possibly playing on the same weekend are affected.

There is something more going on here than just "school". I think everyone knows it. I just wish that some people would actually start admitting it. I don't know if the true reason is elitism or what, but I know for a fact is isn't studying for finals.

[Stonewall D]

The Ivies are also really missing the experience (joy?) of playing football teams that really do have excons/ inmates.

[REALBird]

The original Ivy league athletic conference charter done in the mid-50's, when the official conference was formed, contained language restricting post-season play and athletic scholarships, I believe. While the language isn't/wasn't absolutely clear, this is/was the main sentence.

"The members of the Group shall not engage in post-season games or any other contests designed to settle sectional or other championships."

Under your view, the Ivies have been in their safe zone for at least 60 years, and long before the FCS playoffs were established.

Such a play on words when they provide bright students from disadvantaged backgrounds with enough grants, scholarships, and federal funding to attending for FREE. The premise is the same for all "student-athletes", you're there to get an education. But some schools are just more upfront about wanting these kids to play sports, so they give athletic scholarships, whereas the Ivies and others give "academic aid" to kids to who play sports.

[REALBird]

So Harvard volleyball is playing Nebraska in the national tournament this weekend. Strange that doesn't affect their studies for finals but some how the football players who would be possibly playing on the same weekend are affected.

There is something more going on here than just "school". I think everyone knows it. I just wish that some people would actually start admitting it. I don't know if the true reason is elitism or what, but I know for a fact is isn't studying for finals.

When you talk about the endowments of some of the P5 schools like Texas with over a Billion, people think "WOW, that's a lot of money". Not sure if they publish endowment figures, but with all the politicians, lawyers, CEO's and the like coming from the IL schools, I'm sure they have enough money that a Bowl Game or National Championship just isn't as alluring as it is to others.

They are considered the creme' de la creme' of educational institutions, they have money that far surpasses most public institutions, and they have a good set up where they finish each year with Harvard/Yale. I get it! Some may think it's elitist or snobbish, but the image of these schools hasn't been about sports in a long time, since when they wore leather helmets. HELL I would image Harvard/Yale is more about the "social experience" of the alums, a high society event, with bragging rights thrown in for good measure. History and rivalries are that important to them that they don't want to bastardize THE game for the sake of A Game (Playoffs). Just my two cents.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So Harvard volleyball is playing Nebraska in the national tournament this weekend. Strange that doesn't affect their studies for finals but some how the football players who would be possibly playing on the same weekend are affected.

There is something more going on here than just "school". I think everyone knows it. I just wish that some people would actually start admitting it. I don't know if the true reason is elitism or what, but I know for a fact is isn't studying for finals.

Exactly.

[UNIFanSince1983]

When you talk about the endowments of some of the P5 schools like Texas with over a Billion, people think "WOW, that's a lot of money". Not sure if they publish endowment figures, but with all the politicians, lawyers, CEO's and the like coming from the IL schools, I'm sure they have enough money that a Bowl Game or National Championship just isn't as alluring as it is to others.

They are considered the creme' de la creme' of educational institutions, they have money that far surpasses most public institutions, and they have a good set up where they finish each year with Harvard/Yale. I get it! Some may think it's elitist or snobbish, but the image of these schools hasn't been about sports in a long time, since when they wore leather helmets. HELL I would image Harvard/Yale is more about the "social experience" of the alums, a high society event, with bragging rights thrown in for good measure. History and rivalries are that important to them that they don't want to bastardize THE game for the sake of A Game (Playoffs). Just my two cents.

Like I understand that. I would just like them to put it out there like that. They would rather have THEIR game then A game. No one ever says that. They say it is because of school and finals. Just tell us the truth and we would have less issue with it. You don't see a thread like this popping up about the SWAC and them not competing. They are upfront. They care more about their games then the playoffs. Just let us know and people would respect it a little more. Don't hide behind a false narrative that everyone knows isn't true.

[Stonewall D]

What if a bid were extended. Would an ivey accept it?

[carney2]

Yet another "Here we go again." How many times does this need to be "debated?" It will happen when it happens, and no amount of yammering on AGS will change anything. At the moment the Ancient 8 is/are quite content to play amongst themselves, and remain convinced that it means something. Playing "meaningful" games against large state universities from other parts of the country apparently doesn't interest them. Live with it.

[ST_Lawson]

What if a bid were extended. Would an ivey accept it?

The conference has turned down an offer of an auto-bid (likely repeatedly), so essentially, it has been and no they didn't.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yet another "Here we go again." How many times does this need to be "debated?" It will happen when it happens, and no amount of yammering on AGS will change anything. At the moment the Ancient 8 is/are quite content to play amongst themselves, and remain convinced that it means something. Playing "meaningful" games against large state universities from other parts of the country apparently doesn't interest them. Live with it.

The reason this doesn't happen in the NCAA men's basketball tournament is that playing in the NCAA men's basketball tournament is so compelling that the Ivies have to be a part of it. The problem isn't the Ivies, it's their right to not participate if they don't want to. It's the fact that the NCAA FCS playoffs are not compelling enough a competition, for whatever reason.

The thing, though, is that if the Ivy League were honest about their reasons for not participating, people would probably be just fine with it. What pisses people off is that they shroud themselves in self-righteous bullcrap about how they "care" about the academics of their football players, or pledge fealty to some 1945 agreement which expressly allows for NCAA competitions. Opt out if you must, but spare us the self-righteous hypocritical bull****.

I don't know if the solution lies with ESPN televising the thing, shopping the TV rights to, say, Fox, and/or making it a bigger deal in terms of bidding for the semifinals and finals. What I do know is when the MEAC leaves the Celebration bowl because they'd be bat**** crazy to deny their teams the opportunity to compete for the NCAA championship, that's when we know things are working the way they should.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

How are the volleyball, field hockey, ice hockey, soccer, lacrosse, etc. national championships compelling enough for the Ivy to compete?????

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Yet another "Here we go again." How many times does this need to be "debated?" It will happen when it happens, and no amount of yammering on AGS will change anything. At the moment the Ancient 8 is/are quite content to play amongst themselves, and remain convinced that it means something. Playing "meaningful" games against large state universities from other parts of the country apparently doesn't interest them. Live with it.

It would be easy to live with their decision if they took the same stance in all NCAA sports!

[Stonewall D]

I knew the Ivies didn't play in the post season. I could not understand why not. I also found out through another post that the MEAC and the SWAC also did not participate. I also wanted to hear what Ivy League fans had to say. Their insights are also helpful.

[Green26]

How are the volleyball, field hockey, ice hockey, soccer, lacrosse, etc. national championships compelling enough for the Ivy to compete?????

Perhaps because there are far fewer athletes involved in those sports than in football.

[Green26]

Such a play on words when they provide bright students from disadvantaged backgrounds with enough grants, scholarships, and federal funding to attending for FREE. The premise is the same for all "student-athletes", you're there to get an education. But some schools are just more upfront about wanting these kids to play sports, so they give athletic scholarships, whereas the Ivies and others give "academic aid" to kids to who play sports.

Correct, except that it's not a play on words. It's a meaningful difference. What's wrong with giving all students whose parents aren't wealthy, a scholarship? That's financial aid. Athletes whose parents are wealthy don't get financial aid, or as much financial aid as those whose parents have less income.

[WMTribe90]

Perhaps because there are far fewer athletes involved in those sports than in football.

Are you saying its okay to negatively impact small teams academically by participating in post-season play, but not a large team?

If the post-season ban for football is based on academic principle, shouldn't that principled stand apply to all sports?

What about the simple fact that the number of participants in all those other sports combined outnumber the football team.

I agree with a few of the previous posters. I wouldn't care so much that the IL didn't participate in the FCS playoffs (other than I'd like to how the stack up), if they were just honest about it. It's obviously their choice. Just don't make up a phony, hypocritical excuse about academics. Its insulting to other colleges/universities with high academic standards that are committed to keeping intercollegiate sports in proper perspective and manage to recruit and graduate true student athletes while also participating in the playoffs. Just say we don't care to associate or compete with public universities in football and all we care about is standing within our elite circle. That's fine, and you don't need anyone else to justify your stance. Just please drop the holier than thou academic charade.

[Green26]

Are you saying its okay to negatively impact small teams academically by participating in post-season play, but not a large team?

If the post-season ban for football is based on academic principle, shouldn't that principled stand apply to all sports?

What about the simple fact that the number of participants in all those other sports combined outnumber the football team.

I agree with a few of the previous posters. I wouldn't care so much that the IL didn't participate in the FCS playoffs (other than I'd like to how the stack up), if they were just honest about it. It's obviously their choice. Just don't make up a phony, hypocritical excuse about academics. Its insulting to other colleges/universities with high academic standards that are committed to keeping intercollegiate sports in proper perspective and manage to recruit and graduate true student athletes while also participating in the playoffs. Just say we don't care to associate or compete with public universities in football and all we care about is standing within our elite circle. That's fine, and you don't need anyone else to justify your stance. Just please drop the holier than thou academic charade.

Yes, that's what I was saying. One could argue that not interrupting the finals and academics of a large chunk of the athletes, especially from a team that likely isn't at the top of the student-athlete food chain, could be part of the justification. Also, some of the other teams aren't involved in championships during the time of finals. I'm not justifying the presidents' conclusion; I'm just trying to provide a possible reason or two. I know there are many good arguments to the contrary.

The likely real reason is that the presidents, or almost all of them, just don't want to allow the football teams in the playoffs. The Ivies opted out of bowl games many decades ago. Seniors were not allowed to play in post-season all-star games until after the 1970 season.

Keep in mind that an admissions dean once wrote that football and sports like it (think it may have been hockey and another sport) are "antithetical" to the mission of the College. That coincided with the drastic decline of Dartmouth football following an undefeated season. There have been a few Ivy presidents in recent history who have liked football, and even supported allowing the playoffs, I suspect that most either just tolerate football or hate it. Football and similar sports take up a lot of applicant spots that could be filled with more super smart people and pinheads (like most of the non-athletes at Harvard).

An exception was Dartmouth's former president Kim. He loved football. He had played QB in high school in Iowa. He was often on the sidelines with the team, and his son. A referee told a buddy of mine that if Kim wasn't careful, he was going to get a flag thrown on him. Sometimes Kim would be seen talking to the head coach during important parts of the game. I bet the coach loved that. Ha. I believe Kim supported allowing football to be part of the playoffs.

[Go Green]

I knew the Ivies didn't play in the post season. I could not understand why not..

The ban dates back to way back when.

First, it was because we didn't want to support the segregationist policies of the south (where most Bowl games were).

Then we wanted to avoid the evils and corruption of big-time football.

Then we wanted to avoid missed class time.

Now, it's "tradition."

It sucks. A policy that started out as pretty laudatory hasn't recognized the real-world changes. Every justification has become badly outdated (please--missed class time in with today's technology is a big nothingburger).

Hope for the future though--it's been reported that the Ivy will FINALLY implement a post-season basketball tournament. Long, long, long overdue. Perhaps if that is successful (and it will be), then we may dip our proverbial toe in the football playoffs.

[Go Green]

An exception was Dartmouth's former president Kim. He loved football. He had played QB in high school in Iowa. He was often on the sidelines with the team, and his son. A referee told a buddy of mine that if Kim wasn't careful, he was going to get a flag thrown on him. Sometimes Kim would be seen talking to the head coach during important parts of the game. I bet the coach loved that. Ha. I believe Kim supported allowing football to be part of the playoffs.

President Hanlon (Kim's replacement) seems pretty pro-football.

But nothing is going to happen if Harvard isn't in favor of it.

[Stonewall D]

Wow. That is a lot of power vested in one school.

[bonarae]

My suggestions:

1. IF ONLY Harvard and Yale will demote "The Game" to a regular rivalry game (think The Brawl of the Wild, The Big Game of Cal/Stanford, The Game of Michigan/Ohio State), the Presidents should really consider their stance on football playoff participation.
2. If the two schools still won't demote that game, we need to convince the two schools' presidents through either Change.org or some other petition site for them to do #1.

Speaking of a "basketball tournament" in the Ivies (just like the other conferences), I'm not a fan of that idea at all. The UAA (Division III conference, the one Chicago's in for all non-football sports) doesn't have a tournament either, yet it's still one of the top-tier D-III conferences, hence Chicago sometimes gets in as an at-large bid.

[Ivytalk]

My suggestions:

1. IF ONLY Harvard and Yale will demote "The Game" to a regular rivalry game (think The Brawl of the Wild, The Big Game of Cal/Stanford, The Game of Michigan/Ohio State), the Presidents should really consider their stance on football playoff participation.
2. If the two schools still won't demote that game, we need to convince the two schools' presidents through either Change.org or some other petition site for them to do #1.

Speaking of a "basketball tournament" in the Ivies (just like the other conferences), I'm not a fan of that idea at all. The UAA (Division III conference, the one Chicago's in for all non-football sports) doesn't have a tournament either, yet it's still one of the top-tier D-III conferences, hence Chicago sometimes gets in as an at-large bid.
Is this a troll post? Harvard Yale IS a "regular rivalry game." It's not trademarked or anything. And change.org? Come on. You might as well suggest that Harvard raise money through "gofundme.com." The facts are simple: interest in Ivy football generally is waning, H-Y is mostly a social event where people go to see and be seen, and only overwhelming player/alum/DONOR pressure would change things. Ain't happening.

[Stonewall D]

Richmond has an annual rivalry game against W&M. We are now at 126 games played. It is much more exciting when there are playoff implications. Richmond can salvage its season just by beating W&M and keeping them out of the playoffs. This year's winner won the conference and received a bye. I especially like seeing my W&M friends walking around depressed. It is a sight to behold.

[UNIFanSince1983]

Is this a troll post? Harvard Yale IS a "regular rivalry game." It's not trademarked or anything. And change.org? Come on. You might as well suggest that Harvard raise money through "gofundme.com." The facts are simple: interest in Ivy football generally is waning, H-Y is mostly a social event where people go to see and be seen, and only overwhelming player/alum/DONOR pressure would change things. Ain't happening.

So it can't be a social event if it isn't this late in the season? They can't push it to the last week of the regular season and still be a social event?

[Stonewall D]

My suggestions:

1. IF ONLY Harvard and Yale ...
2. If the two schools still won't demote that game, we need to convince the two schools' presidents through either Change.org or some other petition site for them to do #1.


That is actually a good idea. Have the petition with a connected social media campaign and some press on ESPN and you will get a response. Get the word out to all of the football teams/ players, as well as targeted alum, and other interested parties/ conferences, I bet you will see movement. Social media can be a force for change. It's a lot more fun when the last game of the season means something. When the worst team in the league beats the best team in the league and keeps them out of the playoffs, there is meaning. Richmond has saved its season many times just by beating William and Mary at the end to spoil their year. As a long suffering Richmond fan, I find that makes a 1-9 season worth while.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I believe Kim supported allowing football to be part of the playoffs.

Wow. That is certainly an encouraging sign. Too bad he couldn't convince the other seven.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

FWIW I've spent the last two decades or so trying to tell people that having a regular season-ending rivalry is not cheapened by the FCS playoffs. Quite the opposite. When Lehigh/Lafayette games have playoff implications, the interest levels have been off the charts from all fans.

[Cleets]

So...
The 2015 IVY post season thread does hit ten pages ..!!!


Well done gentlemen

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/picard_clapping.gif

[2ram]

FWIW I've spent the last two decades or so trying to tell people that having a regular season-ending rivalry is not cheapened by the FCS playoffs. Quite the opposite. When Lehigh/Lafayette games have playoff implications, the interest levels have been off the charts from all fans.

and to further that sentiment, i don't think any FBS school rivalries on rivalry weekend were/are cheapened by the old bowl system or the new playoffs.

rivalries are stand alone phenomena that hold their own meaning and importance, exclusive of any other considerations.

[Ivytalk]

So it can't be a social event if it isn't this late in the season? They can't push it to the last week of the regular season and still be a social event?

We wouldn't put on our raccoon coats and Derby hats -- and serve our best single malts -- for Towson or UNI. Sorry!xsmiley_wix

Seriously, if the Harvard players wanted to mount a social media campaign for the playoffs, they would have done it years ago. 95% of the interested parties at Harvard are satisfied with the status quo, if they think about football at all.xpeacex

[Ivytalk]

So...
The 2015 IVY post season thread does hit ten pages ..!!!


Well done gentlemen

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/picard_clapping.gif
By order of Judge Cleets, this thread is hereby adjourned sine die.xsmashx

[Cleets]

Seriously, if the Harvard players wanted to mount a social media campaign for the playoffs, they would have done it years ago. 95% of the interested parties at Harvard are satisfied with the status quo, if they think about football at all.xpeacex

Indeed,
The argument seems to rage on between only off-tangent parties
You almost never hear a word about it from those directly involved

[Cleets]

https://49.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2106xdhg71rqhfmmo1_250.gif

[UNIFanSince1983]

We wouldn't put on our raccoon coats and Derby hats -- and serve our best single malts -- for Towson or UNI. Sorry!xsmiley_wix

Seriously, if the Harvard players wanted to mount a social media campaign for the playoffs, they would have done it years ago. 95% of the interested parties at Harvard are satisfied with the status quo, if they think about football at all.xpeacex

I guess I was confused. I thought the Harvard-Yale interfered with the playoffs. This is my mistake.

So I guess this makes the excuse of it being a social event even less relevant.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Have the Ivy's answered this call out. This is serious, they can not ignore this.

[UNIFanSince1983]

http://www.seanholmesby.com/wp-content/uploads/i_want_the_truth.png

[WMTribe90]

Have the Ivy's answered this call out. This is serious, they can not ignore this.

I've been camped in their front yard for 3 days and they refuse to come out! Whimps.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I've been camped in their front yard for 3 days and they refuse to come out! Whimps.

Agreed. Their feet are to be held to the fire over this one. Keep up the good work!

[Stonewall D]

IMHO, any true sports competitor wants to keep playing as long as he can and to win as many games as he can.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

IMHO, any true sports competitor wants to keep playing as long as he can and to win as many games as he can.

That may be your answer then. They may not see that as a primary goal. Or at least some making the decisions don't. I didn't read the rest of the thread so I'd bet that has already been put out there.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

BTW, this also probably came up but this is such a pounded into the ground topic I just wanted to swing by a poke a bit of fun at it. I don't disagree with wanting them part of it. It would be great.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The real reason the Ivies don't want to participate is that they are purposely trying to make the Patriot League's OOC seem weaker

[smilo]

Guys, guys, have we learned nothing? The only way to change the minds of these Presidents is to go sit en masse in their offices and refuse to leave until they sign a document committing themselves to joining the FCS Playoffs and if they fail, they are obligated to resign immediately.

Might as well take the tactics of the crazies since it seems to be working.

[Stonewall D]

FCS Lives Matter.

[UNIFanSince1983]

Do I need to go on a hunger strike until they compete in the playoffs?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

FCS Playoff Lives Matter.

There we go, I think that nails it down.

[Green26]

FCS Lives Matter.

That was very good.

[Stonewall D]

Hands up, don't throw.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hands up, don't throw.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/MTOkOCKjLxc/hqdefault.jpg

[bonarae]

I don't know why some Ivy fans are divisive about this thing. I backread somewhat and now, I need to keep silent about the topic xrolleyesx. My previous post in this thread wasn't for trolling. See Stonewall D's reply to that post, I think that should be followed.

[Ivytalk]

Do I need to go on a hunger strike until they compete in the playoffs?
Do you want to? Occupy the dean's office? Hang the AD in effigy?

[Ivytalk]

https://49.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2106xdhg71rqhfmmo1_250.gif
ORDER! ORDER! CLEAR THIS FORUM! NO MORE IVY PLAYOFF THREADS!

[Cleets]

Right now I'm just looking for 15 pages...
Last time this place had 15 pages of IVY post season ramblings was 2004 when I was a lurker - and living at 353 Harvard street in Cambridge

[Go...gate]

This looks like a thread which needs to be hijacked by the Patriot League!

[Stonewall D]

Do you want to? Occupy the dean's office? Hang the AD in effigy?
No he probably needs to lose weight. Why else would one go on a hunger strike?

[Stonewall D]

In all seriousness, the Ivy League has it right- you don't hear (or at least I haven't) about them taking marginal players with drug or other issues. Just look at the Coprich thread.

[CitadelGrad]

Pro-playoff Ivy alums should hire some professional social justice warriors (such as the Agents Provocateurs of Ferguson, Mizzou, Dartmouth, Princeton, etc.) as consultants and charge them with transforming the post-season issue into a social justice issue. These people can turn anything into a social justice issue. At that point, the Ivy presidents will have no choice but to acquiesce. They cannot resist the righteousness of the social just warrior. They are slaves to political correctness.

Oops, was my use of the word "slave" a micro-aggression?

[Ivytalk]

This looks like a thread which needs to be hijacked by the Patriot League!

xeekxxeekxxeekxxeekxxeekx

- - - Updated - - -


Pro-playoff Ivy alums should hire some professional social justice warriors (such as the Agents Provocateurs of Ferguson, Mizzou, Dartmouth, Princeton, etc.) as consultants and charge them with transforming the post-season issue into a social justice issue. These people can turn anything into a social justice issue. At that point, the Ivy presidents will have no choice but to acquiesce. They cannot resist the righteousness of the social just warrior. They are slaves to political correctness.

Oops, was my use of the word "slave" a micro-aggression?
Best. CitGrad. Post. Ever.xdrunkyxxthumbsupx

[UNIFanSince1983]

Do you want to? Occupy the dean's office? Hang the AD in effigy?

No just seemed to work for the fellow at Mizzou to get the president to resign...

[Go Green]

In all seriousness, the Ivy League has it right- you don't hear (or at least I haven't) about them taking marginal players with drug or other issues..

You don't hear about the Patriot League taking such players either. And they seem to co-exist with playoffs just fine.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

In all seriousness, the Ivy League has it right- you don't hear (or at least I haven't) about them taking marginal players with drug or other issues. Just look at the Coprich thread.

I can promise you there's Ivy league student athletes that have minor possession charges, underages, disorderlies, ACADEMIC CHEATING issues on their record. But, I agree, not many get caught selling weight to a cop....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You don't hear about the Patriot League taking such players either. And they seem to co-exist with playoffs just fine.

What was the PL's ultimate motive to abstain from the playoffs in the first place? It went from the Colonial/Patriot's inception in 1986 through the 1996 season iirc. Was it solely to follow the "Ivy League Model"? Whatever the justification it cost Holy Cross at least one national title.....

[Go...gate]

What was the PL's ultimate motive to abstain from the playoffs in the first place? It went from the Colonial/Patriot's inception in 1986 through the 1996 season iirc. Was it solely to follow the "Ivy League Model"? Whatever the justification it cost Holy Cross at least one national title.....

Yes, and it cost HC the 1987 National Championship.

[REALBird]

In all seriousness, the Ivy League has it right- you don't hear (or at least I haven't) about them taking marginal players with drug or other issues. Just look at the Coprich thread.

Ummm.....we're talking future Fortune 500 CEO's, Wall Street investors and Politicians. These guys have probably had their parents bury more crap than the Chicago PD and this is just college.

They have a long future of F'n over the rest of us. That Coprich thread will seem like jay walking in a few years.

[Green26]

I can promise you there's Ivy league student athletes that have minor possession charges, underages, disorderlies, ACADEMIC CHEATING issues on their record. But, I agree, not many get caught selling weight to a cop....

At least at my school, Dartmouth, there's not much of that, altho, of course, some. My nephew was an '08 football player and daughter '12 was co-captain of the rugby team. My niece '05 married an athlete. My former teammate and buddy is a criminal lawyer in Hanover.

[FootballCEO]

Whollllle lotta code in this thread

[Ivytalk]

At least at my school, Dartmouth, there's not much of that, altho, of course, some. My nephew was an '08 football player and daughter '12 was co-captain of the rugby team. My niece '05 married an athlete. My former teammate and buddy is a criminal lawyer in Hanover.
At least at my school, Harvard, it's six degrees to POTUS.xnodx

[Green26]

At least at my school, Harvard, it's six degrees to POTUS.xnodx

Yup, and also to many other important people.

[Lehigh'98]

At least at my school, Harvard, it's six degrees to POTUS.xnodx

Wait a minute.....Shouldn't it be like 3 degrees at Harvard?

[Ivytalk]

Wait a minute.....Shouldn't it be like 3 degrees at Harvard?

Well, it used to be, but it's not the early 19th century anymore.xsmhx

[Go Green]

Yes, and it cost HC the 1987 National Championship.

And the 1991 NC as well.

[Go Green]

At least at my school, Dartmouth, there's not much of that, altho, of course, some. .

Yep.

http://highschoolbuzz.blog.pbgametime.com/2011/04/07/benjamin-alum-conner-kempe-suspended-from-dartmouth-football-team/

http://www.vnews.com/news/15127378-95/dartmouth-64-students-cheated

[Sader87]

And the 1991 NC as well.

I am fairly confident Holy Cross was the best team in 1-AA in 1987....the 1991 team wasn't nearly as dominant though.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I am fairly confident Holy Cross was the best team in 1-AA in 1987....the 1991 team wasn't nearly as dominant though.

1987 was one of the best 1AA/FCS teams ever. The 1991 team finished the season ranked #3 iirc and was very good. They would have been in the mix but by no means a slam dunk to win it like the '87 club imo.

Lehigh's 1991 team could have made a run too. The PL would have received two bids in '91 under the old 16 team format. Likewise in '88 with HC and Lafayette both getting in imo...

[Houndawg]

Wait a minute.....Shouldn't it be like 3 degrees at Harvard?

That's Yale.

[DeltaDevil662]

Whollllle lotta code in this thread

A lot. I'm just waiting on the whip and the "get back to work boy" to be posted

[Stonewall D]

1987 was one of the best 1AA/FCS teams ever. The 1991 team finished the season ranked #3 iirc and was very good. They would have been in the mix but by no means a slam dunk to win it like the '87 club imo.

Lehigh's 1991 team could have made a run too. The PL would have received two bids in '91 under the old 16 team format. Likewise in '88 with HC and Lafayette both getting in imo...

Yes, it could have.

- - - Updated - - -


A lot. I'm just waiting on the whip and the "get back to work boy" to be posted

Get back to work boy. There feel better.

[Stonewall D]

Wow, 15 pages. Can we make 20?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Wow, 15 pages. Can we make 20?
It will be moved to the smack board if there is one more post like the one you made previous. This is the FCS Discussion board and that **** won't fly here so hope this point is clearly understood. I won't make it a second time.

[Stonewall D]

IMHO it would be better to have the Ivies in the playoffs and not in a bowl game.

[Stonewall D]

The bowl game would be a good option, especially if it leads to playoff participation later on.

[Stonewall D]

It will be moved to the smack board if there is one more post like the one you made previous. This is the FCS Discussion board and that **** won't fly here so hope this point is clearly understood. I won't make it a second time.
Not sure I understand. The topic is one that many different people are interested in, across leagues and forums. There are two separate threads, this and the one on Ivy bowls. IMHO, this is a serious discussion and it answers a lot of important questions about why the Ivies, which have one of the longest league histories of football, do not necessarily participate in the post season, beyond the Yale-Harvard game. I am still not certain when the Yale-Harvard game occurs. Is it before or after Exams?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Not sure I understand. The topic is one that many different people are interested in, across leagues and forums. There are two separate threads, this and the one on Ivy bowls. IMHO, this is a serious discussion and it answers a lot of important questions about why the Ivies, which have one of the longest league histories of football, do not necessarily participate in the post season, beyond the Yale-Harvard game. I am still not certain when the Yale-Harvard game occurs. Is it before or after Exams?

None of that has a thing to do with what I was pointing out and if you need clarification I will be happy to provide it in a pm.

[Stonewall D]

Why don't you have your boss contact me. I don't bother with PMs.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Why don't you have your boss contact me. I don't bother with PMs.

See how this works out for you. xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't want to keep this thread going but guessing that Stonewall D finally met a Stonewall D.

[Bisonoline]

See how this works out for you. xlolx

xthumbsupx

[Houndawg]

IMHO it would be better to have the Ivies in the playoffs and not in a bowl game.

The playoff field is already diluted, we don't to add several more weak teams. The Ivies have their own thing, let them do their own thing. If we let them in property values will fall..

[Go Green]

we don't to add several more weak teams..

http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/fball/2015-16/releases/Nineteen_Ivies_on_NFL_Rosters_Entering_Training_Ca mps

[Ivytalk]

The playoff field is already diluted, we don't to add several more weak teams. The Ivies have their own thing, let them do their own thing. If we let them in property values will fall..
The Ivies have been "slumming" in FCS long enough. Southern Illnois can have its tract housing back. Off to the Hamptons for us!

[UNIFanSince1983]

The Ivies have been "slumming" in FCS long enough. Southern Illnois can have its tract housing back. Off to the Hamptons for us!

Good luck with that!

[Cleets]

The playoff field is already diluted, we don't to add several more weak teams. The Ivies have their own thing, let them do their own thing. If we let them in property values will fall..


This ^ is actually correct... The playoffs are seriously watered down right now
There were not 20 teams that needed to play a post season game this year
There might not have been 16

[BucBisonAtLarge]

IMHO it would be better to have the Ivies in the playoffs and not in a bowl game.

That's the point-- they have a bowl game, played by same two of eight schools and everyone apparently likes it that way, townie...

[Go Green]

That's the point-- they have a bowl game, played by same two of eight schools and Harvard apparently likes it that way, townie...

Fixed that for you.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Fixed that for you.

Oh... thanks. Kinda what I thought.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

It is because all the major problems associated with college football originated in the Ivies and thus they feel they must make for it by employing the typical Ivy self-righteous. Missing the FCS playoffs is the paid penance. It is hilarious how the Ivy teams created the monster of college football, nurtured it, fed it, chose to abandon it when the rest of the nation finally stripped them of their crowns and now how uninformed fans act like the Ivy are the last bastion of pureness. They were never pure. They were the kings, the Louis XIVs of the gridiron until they were humbled. So to save their pride and keep those grubby commoners and their fingerprints off their ivy towers, they decided to withdraw. Meanwhile, basketball and other sports are allowed to compete in the postseason. Typical Ivy hypocrisy.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Why is the Ivy League marginalizing the FCS playoffs by not participating?

This injustice shall not stand!

[Ivytalk]

It is because all the major problems associated with college football originated in the Ivies and thus they feel they must make for it by employing the typical Ivy self-righteous. Missing the FCS playoffs is the paid penance. It is hilarious how the Ivy teams created the monster of college football, nurtured it, fed it, chose to abandon it when the rest of the nation finally stripped them of their crowns and now how uninformed fans act like the Ivy are the last bastion of pureness. They were never pure. They were the kings, the Louis XIVs of the gridiron until they were humbled. So to save their pride and keep those grubby commoners and their fingerprints off their ivy towers, they decided to withdraw. Meanwhile, basketball and other sports are allowed to compete in the postseason. Typical Ivy hypocrisy.
Jeeves, bring me a Scotch. Single malt. Neat.

[bulldog10jw]

Jeeves, bring me a Scotch. Single malt. Neat.

And a Cuban cigar

[Bill]

In my best Ted Knight voice:

"And I want my shoes buffed, with a fine shammy - and I want it now, chop chop!"

[Go...gate]

In my best Ted Knight voice:

"And I want my shoes buffed, with a fine shammy - and I want it now, chop chop!"

One of the funniest movies ever!

[Bill]

Go gate - tread carefully here. This thread could quickly spiral out of control into a 40+ page on Patriot League approved movies. What the heck, we'll even let our Ivy kindred contribute xthumbsupx

[Ivytalk]

Go gate - tread carefully here. This thread could quickly spiral out of control into a 40+ page on Patriot League approved movies. What the heck, we'll even let our Ivy kindred contribute xthumbsupx
I wouldn't mind a thread on small-batch bourbons...xawesomex

[Go Green]

This thread could quickly spiral out of control into a 40+ page on Patriot League approved movies. What the heck, we'll even let our Ivy kindred contribute xthumbsupx

Trying to come up with examples of PL sports in movies. Drawing a blank.

The Ivies have a few. Wilson (Princeton-Yale football), Love Story (Harvard-Dartmouth hockey). Will try to come up with more later....

[Bill]

There was "Blind Faith" at Lehigh...and unfortunately probably something about Clery...

[Ivytalk]

Trying to come up with examples of PL sports in movies. Drawing a blank.

The Ivies have a few. Wilson (Princeton-Yale football), Love Story (Harvard-Dartmouth hockey). Will try to come up with more later....
Actually, GG, it was Harvard-Cornell hockey. Dartmouth still had chain-link barriers back then.xholyx

[RichH2]

I wouldn't mind a thread on small-batch bourbons...xawesomex
Not a fan,perhaps single malt scotch :)

[Gate83]

Starr Rink was used for game action in Slapshot, does that count?

Also all the guys in Broken Lizard (Super Troopers, Beerfest) are Colgate men, and their movie The Slammin' Salmon had a boxing connection. I'm counting that one too!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Slowly but surely this thread is creeping into "Lafayette at New Hampshire" territory.

[Bill]

Slowly but surely this thread is creeping into "Lafayette at New Hampshire" territory.

Be afraid. Be Very Afraid.

[UNIFanSince1983]

Slowly but surely this thread is creeping into "Lafayette at New Hampshire" territory.

It is a shame because this thread had so much promise too...

[Go Green]

Pride of the Yankees (Columbia baseball)

[Professor Chaos]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/ivy/2016/03/10/ivy-league-postseason-basketball-tournaments-2017/81581710/

The Ivy League finally caved into having a postseason basketball tournament. Will they cave into joining the FCS playoffs?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/ivy/2016/03/10/ivy-league-postseason-basketball-tournaments-2017/81581710/

The Ivy League finally caved into having a postseason basketball tournament. Will they cave into joining the FCS playoffs?

Hope ever springs eternal, but I have a lot of faith that the Ivy League presidents will not make a move over "principles". Now, more flexible than ever!

[bulldog10jw]

Some threads, and or topics, refuse to die.

[JayJ79]

No, because playing in the FCS playoffs would endanger the fantasy that Ivy teams are all special, when they're getting beaten by the top FCS contenders. (or at least rolled by the Bison like everyone else in the subdivision)

[Go Green]

No, because playing in the FCS playoffs would endanger the fantasy that Ivy teams are all special

That was a big (dumbass) rationale for us not having a basketball tournament as well.

It finally lost out.

[RichH2]

That was a big (dumbass) rationale for us not having a basketball tournament as well.

It finally lost out.
So are you setting the timeline for football to mirror the the time it took to institute playoffs?

[dgtw]

I'm actually fine with them not having a basketball tournament. In a one bid league, why risk your top team (and best chance to win an NCAA game) getting bounced and having a 12-16 team luck up and sneak in?

Do they have a postseason baseball tournament?

[kdinva]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/ivy/2016/03/10/ivy-league-postseason-basketball-tournaments-2017/81581710/

The Ivy League finally caved into having a postseason basketball tournament.

yeah, only 4 teams, Saturday/Sunday format......the teams won't travel to the tourney site (Palestra) until after Lunch on Friday....then rush home Sunday evening......that way they can claim "we didn't miss any class time".....

[bonarae]

So are you setting the timeline for football to mirror the the time it took to institute playoffs?

Not sure, but it may be. I don't think the Ivy champ will enter the playoffs until we all pass on. xsmhx


I'm actually fine with them not having a basketball tournament. In a one bid league, why risk your top team (and best chance to win an NCAA game) getting bounced and having a 12-16 team luck up and sneak in?

Do they have a postseason baseball tournament?

Oh yeah, I actually sided with you. However, the UAA, when it was formed in 1986, practically copied the Ivy model and adapted it to multi-region D-III.

And yes, because of the fact Ivy League baseball and softball have two divisions (in baseball, we call these divisions the Lou Gehrig [practically the West Division] and the Red Rolfe [the East Division]), we do hold an Ivy League Championship Series in those sports to determine who goes to the Regionals, and hoping for miracles to happen, Omaha and Oklahoma City.

[Lehigh'98]

Some threads, and or topics, refuse to die.

This topic is the last bastion of pureness....

[mvemjsunpx]

I'm actually fine with them not having a basketball tournament. In a one bid league, why risk your top team (and best chance to win an NCAA game) getting bounced and having a 12-16 team luck up and sneak in?

Because half the teams would have nothing to play for the last few weeks & attendance would tank. I don't know if that happens in the Ivy, but it likely would happen in other leagues.

[Ivytalk]

This topic is the last bastion of pureness....
Make America great again!;)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Because half the teams would have nothing to play for the last few weeks & attendance would tank. I don't know if that happens in the Ivy, but it likely would happen in other leagues.

I'm sure that happens in the Ivy, but then again attendance I don't think really drives these conversations.

[Go Green]

Because half the teams would have nothing to play for the last few weeks & attendance would tank. I don't know if that happens in the Ivy, but it likely would happen in other leagues.

Someone said that last Tuesday's Princeton-Penn game was a historically low attended game for that series.

Not a coincidence that Yale had clinched the title a few days earlier. Princeton may have been playing for a spot in the NIT, but Penn had nothing but pride on the line.