will any PL Head Coaches get fired.....

[CFBfan]

My take:

Dan Hunt, Colgate: secure
Rob Sgarlata, Georgetown: secure
Joe Moorehead, Fordham: secure (will he look to move up?)
Andy Coen, Lehigh: from what I see posted seems secure (maybe a short leash?)
Tom Gilmore, Holy Cross: I'd move him out but HC posters seem to think he has more time in Worcester
Joe Susan, Bucknell: I would move him out and yesterday! what say Bison fans?
Frank Tavani, Lafayette: can poor Frank survive a 1 - 10 / 0 - 6 season? Carney sure hopes not!

[Franks Tanks]

My take:

Dan Hunt, Colgate: secure
Rob Sgarlata, Georgetown: secure
Joe Moorehead, Fordham: secure (will he look to move up?)
Andy Coen, Lehigh: from what I see posted seems secure (maybe a short leash?)
Tom Gilmore, Holy Cross: I'd move him out but HC posters seem to think he has more time in Worcester
Joe Susan, Bucknell: I would move him out and yesterday! what say Bison fans?
Frank Tavani, Lafayette: can poor Frank survive a 1 - 10 / 0 - 6 season? Carney sure hopes not!

Why would you fire Susan? Bucknell needs to score more points, but they have been a tough and well coached squad over the last few years.

[CFBfan]

Why would you fire Susan? Bucknell needs to score more points, but they have been a tough and well coached squad over the last few years.

he's 28 - 38 / 13 - 22 at Bucknell. He's not even close to average!

[Pards Rule]

Tavani will probably be allowed to coach out his contract through 2016.

[Lehigh'98]

Who were the last three head coaches in the PL to actually be fired?

[Pards Rule]

Who were the last three head coaches in the PL to actually be fired?

Damn good question..Putnam was fired 35 years ago today November 24, 1980, ironically, two days after the Lehigh 32-0 win finished the season at 3-7, with no TDs in 6 games! Bill Russo was hired the following week I believe. Would that be one of them? :)

[jimbo65]

Who were the last three head coaches in the PL to actually be fired?
Coach Massela, Coach Morehead's predecessor was either let go or did not have his contact renewed.

[PAllen]

Lembo, though not technically fired, was certainly shown the door, reminded how to open it, drawn a diagram of how to close it after himself...

[PAllen]

I don't think any PL coaches get canned. Gilmore, Coen, and Frank need to go, but won't get fired.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If anyone gets fired, and I don't think this will actually happen, it's Gilmore.

One thing to remember in this discussion is that every single team this season, pretty much, has a small senior class and a ton coming back. For example, if you're Holy Cross, do you really want to change jockeys in Pujals' senior year? As disappointing as Lafayette's season was, you can make an argument that they have a good core of talent and will be better next season as few kids are lost to graduation.

[Franks Tanks]

he's 28 - 38 / 13 - 22 at Bucknell. He's not even close to average!

Have you watched Bucknell play? They are well coach, fundamentally sound and play hard. Also you must put his record in context..they were very bad when Susan arrived, and he has turned the Bison into a solid squad.

They do need to find a way to score more. They have way too many games where they score only 10, 13 etc. They have run the ball pretty well, but generally struggle in the passing game.

[Lehigh'98]

Bucknell took a big step backwards this year.

[Franks Tanks]

Bucknell took a big step backwards this year.


Agree that they really had trouble scoring, but I think Susan still has them going in the right direction. I would take Susan over Tavani any day of the week.

[Sader87]

Gilmore probably bought himself another year playing the weakest schedule HC has evah played while it has been in 1-AA/FCS.

Rubber will hit the road next year when the schedule is more difficult. If he goes undah .500 next season, I think he's gone.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bucknell only scored 10 points on Lehigh's defense. That's a few steps past "struggling".

[BisonFan02]

How many years do you have to coach in the PL before you get tenure? :)

[CFBfan]

How many years do you have to coach in the PL before you get tenure? :)

apparently 1

[carney2]

The answer to the question posed in the title line is

No, not a chance.

And, carney does not hope that Frank Tavani does not "survive. carney KNOWS that

1. Frank has one year remaining on his contract and will not (cannot?) be fired. Any exit will be his decision.

2. A Tavani departure would be no better than a Band-Aid. The problems at Lafayette are deep seated and systemic. A new coach might provide a five year bump with some adrenaline and new methods, but in the end the real problems would remain. It isn't often that carney, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, is running ahead of the curve, but in this case ... maybe. Are the problems solvable? Or is the Pard program entering the latter stages of a slow and steady spiral to oblivion?

[Southsider]

If anyone gets fired, and I don't think this will actually happen, it's Gilmore.

One thing to remember in this discussion is that every single team this season, pretty much, has a small senior class and a ton coming back. For example, if you're Holy Cross, do you really want to change jockeys in Pujals' senior year? As disappointing as Lafayette's season was, you can make an argument that they have a good core of talent and will be better next season as few kids are lost to graduation.

I think Lafayette can be very good next year. Will they?? I know their faithful are having a real tough time dealing with this years results. But honestly, they have been dealt a very tough hand. Tavani will stick around, and I think they will be fine. (hopefully not on the 3rd Saturday in November)xlolx

[Gate83]

Who were the last three head coaches in the PL to actually be fired?

We fired Foley in '92 and Sweeney in '95. Since then, Biddle and now Dan Hunt... PL coach of the year, just announced. Congrats!

[FordhamFan]

Bucknell needs a QB, not a new coach

[crusader11]

Bucknell needs a QB, not a new coach

Coach recruits the QB.

[DFW HOYA]

My take:

Dan Hunt, Colgate: secure
Rob Sgarlata, Georgetown: secure
Joe Moorehead, Fordham: secure (will he look to move up?)
Andy Coen, Lehigh: from what I see posted seems secure (maybe a short leash?)
Tom Gilmore, Holy Cross: I'd move him out but HC posters seem to think he has more time in Worcester
Joe Susan, Bucknell: I would move him out and yesterday! what say Bison fans?
Frank Tavani, Lafayette: can poor Frank survive a 1 - 10 / 0 - 6 season? Carney sure hopes not!

I think this was discussed earlier in the season. From most secure to least:

Sgarlata - Safe. Georgetown doesn't drop coaches on W/L records.
Hunt - PL champs in year two? Safe!
Moorhead - Safe, but the only PL head coach in the mix for a I-A coaching search
Susan - Down year but not (yet) a trend.
Coen: 6-5 not great but not enough to make a change. Another 6-5 in 2016? Different discussion.
Gilmore: 6-5 probably buys an extension but he's still under .500 after 12 years at HC.
Tavani: Could retire at the end of his contract in 2016.

[Franks Tanks]

What would it take for one of these clowns to get fired? An employee at McDonalds has more accountability.

[Pards Rule]

If anyone gets fired, and I don't think this will actually happen, it's Gilmore.

One thing to remember in this discussion is that every single team this season, pretty much, has a small senior class and a ton coming back. For example, if you're Holy Cross, do you really want to change jockeys in Pujals' senior year? As disappointing as Lafayette's season was, you can make an argument that they have a good core of talent and will be better next season as few kids are lost to graduation.

Yes what 17 players lost this year to season ending injury and one sadly in car accident last June. We had a LOT of frosh and soph have to pick up slack and play completely out of position (our other RB in the game CJ Amill was a defensive dude they had to move over).

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I think the expectations for Lehigh next year will be legitimately high. The defense has to get and fixed and if it doesn't there will be a lot of unhappy campers. The schedule is not overly difficult but it's not easy either. I think anything worse than 8-3 will be a disappointment so long as the injuries are not crippling. Colgate and Fordham visit Goodman. There is a late season trip to HC....

As mentioned before, this was this first Lehigh class since the class of '93, played fall '92 that did not win a PL title. It's time to return to the playoffs imo....

I'll be interested to see if Lehigh's DC gets fired. I think he has to go....

[carney2]

Yes what 17 players lost this year to season ending injury and one sadly in car accident last June. We had a LOT of frosh and soph have to pick up slack and play completely out of position (our other RB in the game CJ Amill was a defensive dude they had to move over).

So, you've drunk the Kool-Aid and "the future is bright?" Don't know who I find more disappointing, you or your moth eaten friend who did absolutely nothing on Saturday.

[ngineer]

he's 28 - 38 / 13 - 22 at Bucknell. He's not even close to average!

At Bucknell that is average!

Bucknell's defense is very good and kept them in most of their games. The loss of their RB earlier in the season hurt their offense alot. Might have given LU a better game with that added dimension.

[ngineer]

We fired Foley in '92 and Sweeney in '95. Since then, Biddle and now Dan Hunt... PL coach of the year, just announced. Congrats!


Agree, now, that Hunt get COTY. I previously posted elsewhere I thought Scags at G'town should get because he has less to work with and had a very good season under the circumstance, despite the blowout in Woostuh. But going 6-0 in the PL, where there was a ton of parity should be acknowledged.

[Pards Rule]

So, you've drunk the Kool-Aid and "the future is bright?" Don't know who I find more disappointing, you or your moth eaten friend who did absolutely nothing on Saturday.

No, Im not a Koolaider but there were some mitigating circumstances this year. The Pard was well received by Coach Gruden!

[Andy]

No, Im not a Koolaider but there were some mitigating circumstances this year

Ya think?;) A knowledgeable fan, engineer, is giving Bucknell a pass for losing one player.

LC's OL looks to have the personnel to be much improved. Two freshmen played all year. The entire group is young, there will be one sr starter next year. Bringing in a pair of tackles to compliment the solid 3 interior from last year's class. This will help the QB play, but QB is our glaring weakness. No help in sight.

The defensive secondary will have to be rebuilt. I dont see any seniors in the group next year. We did bring in 2 talented safeties last year, both of whom played, one until he required shoulder surgery.

Looking up from the cellar, just too many top notch QBs among the top tier teams to be competitive against until we find one

[RichH2]

If anyone gets fired, and I don't think this will actually happen, it's Gilmore.

One thing to remember in this discussion is that every single team this season, pretty much, has a small senior class and a ton coming back. For example, if you're Holy Cross, do you really want to change jockeys in Pujals' senior year? As disappointing as Lafayette's season was, you can make an argument that they have a good core of talent and will be better next season as few kids are lost to graduation.

I think Lafayette can be very good next year. Will they?? I know their faithful are having a real tough time dealing with this years results. But honestly, they have been dealt a very tough hand. Tavani will stick around, and I think they will be fine. (hopefully not on the 3rd Saturday in November)xlolx
+1

[RichH2]

An excellent question but premature. Ask again next year at this time.

[ngineer]

Ya think?;) A knowledgeable fan, engineer, is giving Bucknell a pass for losing one player.

LC's OL looks to have the personnel to be much improved. Two freshmen played all year. The entire group is young, there will be one sr starter next year. Bringing in a pair of tackles to compliment the solid 3 interior from last year's class. This will help the QB play, but QB is our glaring weakness. No help in sight.

The defensive secondary will have to be rebuilt. I dont see any seniors in the group next year. We did bring in 2 talented safeties last year, both of whom played, one until he required shoulder surgery.

Looking up from the cellar, just too many top notch QBs among the top tier teams to be competitive against until we find one

Not sure how "knowledgeable" I is, but as for Bucknell, I remember how their RB tore us up in 2014 and really opened up their pass attack. Without him, and no run game, we were able to play the pass and blitzed the heck out of their QB effectively. Depending on the player, missing a key cog can really make the wheel jam.

I think LC can certainly be much better next year. The 'silver lining' is all the experience the freshmen and sophomores received. That can provide dividends next year. Still, as noted, everyone in the PL seems to have their QBs back next year and they are a stellar set. Would be nice for Frank to be sent off with at least a 6-5 record. I think that is unlikely, but something in the neighborhood of 4-7/5-6 could be a good foundation for his successor. I would think former 'pard Troxell at F&M would be the inside preference.

[RichH2]

Parity will be more evident next year. Only gauge for PL is how we do OOC. In conference ,doubt any will go 6-0 or 0-6. Pards at a disadvantage at QB but otherwise should be solid,if they survive a brutal OOC schedule.

[KPSUL]

FNG question. Do Patriot League Coaches get fired very often?

[PAllen]

FNG question. Do Patriot League Coaches get fired very often?

Every few decades or so.

[RichH2]

Even predating PL,the core schools rately fired HCs. Usually they move up ( Lembo,Clawson,Higgins et al) or stay (Biddle,Russo,Dunlap)

[Andy]

I would think former 'pard Troxell at F&M would be the inside preference.

Afraid so...not that he doesn't have supporters, deserve a shot, or isn't a great guy, but I'd like someone who's recruited with scholarships nationally. Someone had a funny line on Pard board "McCuthcheon will conduct an extensive search of the Lafayette campus for a replacement." He might extend the search all the way to Lancaster. I'd like to hear Franks Tanks take on possibility of Troxell getting the nod (if and when Frank walks away).

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Fired? No, we don't do things that way.

That said, Tim Landis, the coach before Joe Susan, was pretty evidently shown the door at Bucknell.

Bucknell was able to find solutions last season to a myriad of key offensive injuries. This year? No, the offense seemed to lack any solutions at all, regardless of personnel. I am at a distance and don't see many games, so I would defer to 137 for his observations. In September, Massey called this season for Bucknell as 4-7, despite the common wisdom at the time. So it came to pass.

Regardless, Joe Susan is Bucknell's coach- period. I think that, one year away from having four years' scholarships on-board, it will be hard to see any of these coaches forced out, even Tavani. The five new scholarship programs are works in progress.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Kevin Kelly and Tim Landis basically took the hints that it was time to move on. Oddly, Lehigh's last coach before Andy did something similar, Pete Lembo. He was on the rise and saw his chance to become a hero somewhere else, and succeeded right at the tail end of an 8-3 season and the Jonathan Hurt catch. I think he would have left after the year regardless, but he does follow the line that PL coaches don't get fired, they simply get convinced they should go somewhere else.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross fired coaches before we joined the Patriot League....now it's basically a country club in that it's it not good form to fire someone unless it's something particularly egregious.

[Pards Rule]

Fired? No, we don't do things that way.

That said, Tim Landis, the coach before Joe Susan, was pretty evidently shown the door at Bucknell.

Bucknell was able to find solutions last season to a myriad of key offensive injuries. This year? No, the offense seemed to lack any solutions at all, regardless of personnel. I am at a distance and don't see many games, so I would defer to 137 for his observations. In September, Massey called this season for Bucknell as 4-7, despite the common wisdom at the time. So it came to pass.

Regardless, Joe Susan is Bucknell's coach- period. I think that, one year away from having four years' scholarships on-board, it will be hard to see any of these coaches forced out, even Tavani. The five new scholarship programs are works in progress.

Wasn't Bob Curtis fired?? What year?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Holy Cross fired coaches before we joined the Patriot League....now it's basically a country club in that it's it not good form to fire someone unless it's something particularly egregious.

They still fire basketball coaches :D

[Franks Tanks]

Kevin Kelly and Tim Landis basically took the hints that it was time to move on. Oddly, Lehigh's last coach before Andy did something similar, Pete Lembo. He was on the rise and saw his chance to become a hero somewhere else, and succeeded right at the tail end of an 8-3 season and the Jonathan Hurt catch. I think he would have left after the year regardless, but he does follow the line that PL coaches don't get fired, they simply get convinced they should go somewhere else.

i suppose Frank is too dumb to take the hint.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Wasn't Bob Curtis fired?? What year?
Curtis was the coach when I was a student, and after... He left after a bad year(1985, 11 seasons), for sure and rarely broke .500, even with the regular dates with Gettysburg, Rochester and West Chester. I was not following Bison football closely in that time frame, so someone else will have to comment.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross fired coaches before we joined the Patriot League....now it's basically a country club in that it's it not good form to fire someone unless it's something particularly egregious.

They fired Wheelright after the 1980 season, but Rick Carter tragically killed himself.

[Go...gate]

Curtis was the coach when I was a student, and after... He left after a bad year(1985, 11 seasons), for sure and rarely broke .500, even with the regular dates with Gettysburg, Rochester and West Chester. I was not following Bison football closely in that time frame, so someone else will have to comment.

I believe Landis and then Gadd followed, correct?

[CFBfan]

Kevin Kelly and Tim Landis basically took the hints that it was time to move on. Oddly, Lehigh's last coach before Andy did something similar, Pete Lembo. He was on the rise and saw his chance to become a hero somewhere else, and succeeded right at the tail end of an 8-3 season and the Jonathan Hurt catch. I think he would have left after the year regardless, but he does follow the line that PL coaches don't get fired, they simply get convinced they should go somewhere else.

Georgetown was not hinting to Kevin Kelly to leave, in fact in 2 of his last 3 years he play your mountain squawks for the PL title. Do you have facts/evidence that say otherwise LFN?

[Franks Tanks]

I believe Landis and then Gadd followed, correct?

Landis followed Gadd after Gadd passed away from cancer. Those Tom Gadd Bucknell teams were tough as hell.

[ngineer]

Last Lehigh coach to be outright "fired" was probably Cooley after the 1964 season when Dunlap was hired--his first HC gig that was like being left off in the desert. Things were so bad when Cooley left it took Dunlap a good five years to get things turned around. This is covered in excellent detail in the newly released book "The Dunlap Rules", written by his son. I have started it, about 120 pages in (490 pp book), and it is an excellent read. Gives a lot of behind the scene insight into the wheelings and dealings of college football at hour level, as well as an excellent look into the Coach Dunlap's philosophy of discipline and dedication to a course. He was very close to being fired at Lehigh after his third season and only two wins to show, but the, then, President of Lehigh saw the improvement in Lehigh's quality of play, despite the W-L record and extended Dunlap's contracts despite efforts by the AD, Leckonby, to oust him! How's that for something you would rarely see today?

I am not as clear on Small's leaving in 1993, but I think it was something Hank wanted to do in getting involved in becoming an AD when he headed to south to Charleston.

[Pards Rule]

Curtis was the coach when I was a student, and after... He left after a bad year(1985, 11 seasons), for sure and rarely broke .500, even with the regular dates with Gettysburg, Rochester and West Chester. I was not following Bison football closely in that time frame, so someone else will have to comment.


Ironically sounds like the ten year Neil Putnam era at Lafayette (.500 stuff) and I think what pushed the AD to fricking fire him was the continual Lehigh losses, the last my frosh year, 32-0 at home. After we lost to Bucknell in 1980, we beat them the following year (amazingly we were 4-0 going into the game and were Dunkel underdogs by 6!) 37-0, in 1982 in a game I attended in Lewisburg with my parents and frosh BU brother (all BU grads) 37-10 and my senior year finished it off with a 33-3 win in Easton, PA.

[Pards Rule]

They fired Wheelright after the 1980 season, but Rick Carter tragically killed himself.

Wow - I never knew this (of course it was the era before internet and ESPN proliferation). He has a Wiki page.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_E._Carter#mw-head), search (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_E._Carter#p-search)

Rick E. Carter
Sport(s)
Football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football), baseball (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball)


Biographical details


Born
(1943-07-01)July 1, 1943


Died
February 2, 1986(1986-02-02) (aged 42)
West Boylston, Massachusetts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Boylston,_Massachusetts)


Coaching career (HC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_coach) unless noted)


Football


1965
Earlham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earlham_Quakers_football) (GA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduate_assistant))


1966–1971
Earlham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earlham_Quakers_football)


1972–1976
Hanover (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover_Panthers_football)


1977–1980
Dayton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Flyers_football)


1981–1985
Holy Cross (MA) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cross_Crusaders_football)


Baseball


1969–1972
Earlham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earlham_Quakers)


Head coaching record


Overall
137–58–7 (football)
76–53–2 (baseball)


Tournaments
Football
3–1 (NCAA D-III playoffs)
0–1 (NCAA D-I-AA playoffs)


Statistics College Football Data Warehouse (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=3299)



Accomplishments and honors


Championships


Football
1 NCAA D-III National (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_III_National_Football_Championship) (1980)
5 Hoosier-Buckeye (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoosier-Buckeye_Conference) (1973–1976)


Awards


Football
AFCA College Division Coach of the Year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFCA_Coach_of_the_Year) (1980)


Rick E. Carter (July 1, 1943 – February 2, 1986) was an American football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) and baseball (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball) player and coach. He served as the head football coach Earlham College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earlham_College) in Richmond, Indiana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond,_Indiana) (1966–1971), Hanover College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover_College) (1972–1976), the University of Dayton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Dayton) (1977–1980), and the College of the Holy Cross (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_the_Holy_Cross) (1981–1985), compiling a career college football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football) coaching record of 137–58–7.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_E._Carter#cite_note-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_E._Carter#cite_note-2) His 1980 Dayton Flyers won the NCAA Division III National Football Championship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_III_National_Football_Championship) after a 14–0 season and a 63–0 victory over Ithaca (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Bombers_football) in the NCAA Division III National Football Championship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_III_National_Football_Championship).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_E._Carter#cite_note-3) He was named the AFCA College Division Coach of the Year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFCA_Coach_of_the_Year) in 1980.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_E._Carter#cite_note-4)
Carter committed suicide after the 1985 season at the age of 42.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_E._Carter#cite_note-5) He had been hospitalized for psychiatric treatment of depression. His father had died of cancer the previous August and his mother was terminally ill but friends claimed he was also upset about his lack of career advancement. In previous years Carter had been offered jobs at several major programs, but Holy Cross would not release him from his contract and those offers had stopped coming.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_E._Carter#cite_note-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_E._Carter#cite_note-7) He was survived by his wife and two sons.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_E._Carter#cite_note-8)

[Sader87]

Tragic story.... Carter was a very good coach but was wound very, very tight. NC State wanted to hire him but HC wouldn't let him out of his contract. 1985 turned into a very disappointing season...injuries, close losses etc...ironically, HC went on to go something like 60-5 from 1986-91.

That was an awful weekend on campus, not only Carter but Father Hart (of the Hart Centah) and a student died over that weekend.

[Pards Rule]

Tragic story.... Carter was a very good coach but was wound very, very tight. NC State wanted to hire him but HC wouldn't let him out of his contract. 1985 turned into a very disappointing season...injuries, close losses etc...ironically, HC went on to go something like 60-5 from 1986-91.

That was an awful weekend on campus, not only Carter but Father Hart (of the Hart Centah) and a student died over that weekend.


Geez - from the 87 I assume your were witness to the tragedies...

[Sader87]

Geez - from the 87 I assume your were witness to the tragedies...

Actually very close...one brother was a walk-on on that team, another brother actually was Nick Carter's dorm roommate at one time. I had known Fr Hart through both his relationship with my Dad when he was at HC and the student who died that weekend was a brother of a good friend....brutal weekend.

[Pards Rule]

Actually very close...one brother was a walk-on on that team, another brother actually was Nick Carter's dorm roommate at one time. I had known Fr Hart through both his relationship with my Dad when he was at HC and the student who died that weekend was a brother of a good friend....brutal weekend.

My sympathies on that Sader87. Beyond belief. I hope to be up in Worcester in 2017 as I haven't been up to a game there since 1991 - a disaster of a loss; I think like 48-14. You folks were still phasing out the schollies back then.

[Sader87]

My sympathies on that Sader87. Beyond belief. I hope to be up in Worcester in 2017 as I haven't been up to a game there since 1991 - a disaster of a loss; I think like 48-14. You folks were still phasing out the schollies back then.

Thanks...very hard to believe that was nearly 30 years ago....will save you a spot at the tailgate Pards Rule!!

[Pards Rule]

Thanks...very hard to believe that was nearly 30 years ago....will save you a spot at the tailgate Pards Rule!!

thank you Sader...I look forward to it!

[DFW HOYA]

Kevin Kelly and Tim Landis basically took the hints that it was time to move on. Oddly, Lehigh's last coach before Andy did something similar, Pete Lembo. He was on the rise and saw his chance to become a hero somewhere else, and succeeded right at the tail end of an 8-3 season and the Jonathan Hurt catch. I think he would have left after the year regardless, but he does follow the line that PL coaches don't get fired, they simply get convinced they should go somewhere else.

Kevin Kelly wasn't shown the door by any means but he probably took a look at his record (23-64) and realized that an $150K/year offer from Ball State was too good to turn down, and he might not get that kind of offer in the future if his numbers continued to erode at Georgetown.

[Pards Rule]

Last Lehigh coach to be outright "fired" was probably Cooley after the 1964 season when Dunlap was hired--his first HC gig that was like being left off in the desert. Things were so bad when Cooley left it took Dunlap a good five years to get things turned around. This is covered in excellent detail in the newly released book "The Dunlap Rules", written by his son. I have started it, about 120 pages in (490 pp book), and it is an excellent read. Gives a lot of behind the scene insight into the wheelings and dealings of college football at hour level, as well as an excellent look into the Coach Dunlap's philosophy of discipline and dedication to a course. He was very close to being fired at Lehigh after his third season and only two wins to show, but the, then, President of Lehigh saw the improvement in Lehigh's quality of play, despite the W-L record and extended Dunlap's contracts despite efforts by the AD, Leckonby, to oust him! How's that for something you would rarely see today?

I am not as clear on Small's leaving in 1993, but I think it was something Hank wanted to do in getting involved in becoming an AD when he headed to south to Charleston.

I bumped into Small (AD at Chuck South or is it CCU, some SC one) at the Advantage car rental counter at DFW the day prior to the first NDSU game at Frisco. Nice guy and we had a chat.

[ngineer]

I bumped into Small (AD at Chuck South or is it CCU, some SC one) at the Advantage car rental counter at DFW the day prior to the first NDSU game at Frisco. Nice guy and we had a chat.

Yes, he's been there ever since leaving Lehigh. I guess he found a place to anchor down. Prior to Lehigh he had been the typical 'nomad' moving up the chain from college to pros and back to college before going into administration.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Now the Joe Moorhead watch begins again....

[Doc QB]

Yes, he's been there ever since leaving Lehigh. I guess he found a place to anchor down. Prior to Lehigh he had been the typical 'nomad' moving up the chain from college to pros and back to college before going into administration.

Incorrect. He spent Higgins first yr as head coach , out of football, working for UPS. Little known fact. then on Jim Caldwell's staff at Wake as RB coach. Ascended to OC, QB Rustey LaRue put up air Lehigh numbers but had no D. When Caldwell's job was on line, Hank got axed, Caldwell took over play calling. Hank emerged at CSU later. And his end at LU was more than interesting.

[ngineer]

Incorrect. He spent Higgins first yr as head coach , out of football, working for UPS. Little known fact. then on Jim Caldwell's staff at Wake as RB coach. Ascended to OC, QB Rustey LaRue put up air Lehigh numbers but had no D. When Caldwell's job was on line, Hank got axed, Caldwell took over play calling. Hank emerged at CSU later. And his end at LU was more than interesting.

Thanks for the information. His leaving Lehigh was somewhat vague. I never heard a specific reason, but I did hear reports that he was a bit 'over the top' with regard to religion and that some players were uncomfortable if they did not participate in certain prayer gatherings. From you prior posts, I assume you may have more inside information based upon your years at Lehigh.

[Lehigh'98]

Was always curious why Small left Lehigh. His W-L records weren't terrible. Wonder how much Higgins played into it?

[Pards Rule]

Incorrect. He spent Higgins first yr as head coach , out of football, working for UPS. Little known fact. then on Jim Caldwell's staff at Wake as RB coach. Ascended to OC, QB Rustey LaRue put up air Lehigh numbers but had no D. When Caldwell's job was on line, Hank got axed, Caldwell took over play calling. Hank emerged at CSU later. And his end at LU was more than interesting.


Doc, I think after this time interval, it could be told? Please?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My recollection about Hank Small was, in 1995 it was very clear that he was going to be retiring after the season. The retirement did not come suddenly, it was a well-planned event and Higgins' "promotion from within" was in the works already. Kinda like Dan Hunt after Dick Biddle's retirement.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

My recollection about Hank Small was, in 1995 it was very clear that he was going to be retiring after the season. The retirement did not come suddenly, it was a well-planned event and Higgins' "promotion from within" was in the works already. Kinda like Dan Hunt after Dick Biddle's retirement.

Small left after the 1993 PL title season....

[heath]

Why would you fire Susan? Bucknell needs to score more points, but they have been a tough and well coached squad over the last few years.
Agree. Susan over the last 3 years has done well. Kicked Lehigh pretty good 2 of the last 3 years.

[heath]

I think the expectations for Lehigh next year will be legitimately high. The defense has to get and fixed and if it doesn't there will be a lot of unhappy campers. The schedule is not overly difficult but it's not easy either. I think anything worse than 8-3 will be a disappointment so long as the injuries are not crippling. Colgate and Fordham visit Goodman. There is a late season trip to HC....

As mentioned before, this was this first Lehigh class since the class of '93, played fall '92 that did not win a PL title. It's time to return to the playoffs imo....

I'll be interested to see if Lehigh's DC gets fired. I think he has to go....
Maybe he will go back to coaching high school where he belongs. A very bad hire by Joe to bring him back. We can do much better.

[Doc QB]

Doc, I think after this time interval, it could be told? Please?

Sorry gents, not a secret, tired of typing in phone late that night. Nothing sordid, just really odd-ball story. Source is my final years there as well as a coach, some years later. Around '90-91 Hank was told he'd be able to finish out his contract, but program was to go in another direction...he was offered a spot in administration upon 'retirement,' 'moving on,' what have you. He said he wanted to continue coaching not be an administrator. That part is somewhat clear. He then had a break out year in '91, we went 9-2, beat every Yankee conf team we played, losing to an undefeated 11-0 HC in Duffner's last year there. We lost a head scratcher up in Hamilton. Gets somewhat cloudy here by the reports, but, after that year, it was felt he deserved an extension (not sure by whom, Hank, admin, boosters??), since we knocked on the door of a first PL championship, HC had phased out all full scholarships, and then Duffner went to Maryland. Unclear if he assumed he'd get extension, or whether administration was still ready to move program to other leadership. Either way, we had an awful '92, lost to Leopards during the 10am kickoff game there (after the '91 riots on the field and pepper spray of students), and it became clear he was NOT getting more time and that an admin job at LU wasn't in the cards either. Much speculation as to why---his religious bent was true, but didn't really pressure players. He did stockpile offense 3 deep with some guys who could have helped a marginal defense, their were rumors he had odd recruiting battles with admin (which we never saw, there was never any racism or ugliness like that, so who knows).

So that made '93 pretty important for him career-wise, needed to somehow erase the '92 run, emphasize his success in '91 to move on, and make '93 a big year. And if you recall prior to that season, we did something never done before...landed a ton of junior college kids and I-A transfers (one who pretty much derailed my career). This new practice either was met with more friction, was the product of his need to land some impact kids to fill holes and make the upcoming season a winning one, or part of the vague "his recruiting practices/battles" rumors we couldn't make heads or tails of. What I can say is I know of only one of those JC guys who stayed, played, and graduated. That just isn't the Lehigh way.

In the end, we won the league for the first time that '93 with a 7-4 record, got stomped by Delaware and Idaho OOC (who each made solid playoff runs). Higgins was promoted and we got a slew of new faces and younger stars got promoted (Dave Clawson for example). At the time, Hank just kinda quietly disappeared until year(s) later emerged at Wake Forest. A year into the Higgins tenure, I asked him what happened to Hank because I really got along with Kevin, helped him move his home, he was a great guy (who several years later offered me a look at a GA spot--in the stands of the West Chester-Villanova nite game--if med school tanked). His reply, and it was awkward, was, "professionally, it was time for Hank to move on." Curious for sure.

It was years later I heard from inside guys there was some internal friction, and since he waited late to have a job lined up, delayed interest in an admin post at LU that never materialized or was rescinded, he ended up delivering for UPS. Because of the temporal relationship of his leaving and year later reappearing at Wake, something was certainly odd. He was in his mid to early 50's then, so I don't think he was retiring. Just odd, because he did put some numbers up on offense...I gotta think he had offers in some capacity over those years, but he was maybe after a specific offer or opportunity. He did right by me when I looked to transfer, calling other head coaches on my behalf. Hell, my sons' flag football team I was head coach for this year used some of those old pass plays!

So, long story short, and to the point of the thread, I guess not fired, but weird.

[Pards Rule]

Doc, quite bizarre indeed. Thank you for the detailed insights. You would think with the instability of the situation as should have been apparent to him, he would have been actively persuing Plan B. Without that net, he was delivering for UPS for a year. Doc, was that 1992 game really started at 10AM?! I have been to every one since my frosh year in 1980 (36 and climbing) but I always recalled the 1981 game (a year after the notable clubbings of goalpost rushing/scrapping students by the City of Easton PA Police) kickoff at 11AM as the earliest.

[Doc QB]

Doc, quite bizarre indeed. Thank you for the detailed insights. You would think with the instability of the situation as should have been apparent to him, he would have been actively persuing Plan B. Without that net, he was delivering for UPS for a year. Doc, was that 1992 game really started at 10AM?! I have been to every one since my frosh year in 1980 (36 and climbing) but I always recalled the 1981 game (a year after the notable clubbings of goalpost rushing/scrapping students by the City of Easton PA Police) kickoff at 11AM as the earliest.

10:15 or 10:45...hard to remember, we were up at 445am for pregame.

[Pards Rule]

10:15 or 10:45...hard to remember, we were up at 445am for pregame.

OK I will agree with that 10:45AM - I do now recall a game being started at a weird :45 ending and it probably was that one. OK I guess that takes it. Admin would react to situations like clubbings (also notable after the 1984 game in Easton too) and move up games to limit time for pre-game drinking. I believe after the 84 contest, the Easton Police then wouldn't provide security as there were a number of lawsuits by students against the police and settlement monies paid. I'm not sure when Bethlehem PD also took this tact, but somewhere in the mid 80s the Rivalry Game was being patrolled at both venues by all security personnel.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Doc, quite bizarre indeed. Thank you for the detailed insights. You would think with the instability of the situation as should have been apparent to him, he would have been actively persuing Plan B. Without that net, he was delivering for UPS for a year. Doc, was that 1992 game really started at 10AM?! I have been to every one since my frosh year in 1980 (36 and climbing) but I always recalled the 1981 game (a year after the notable clubbings of goalpost rushing/scrapping students by the City of Easton PA Police) kickoff at 11AM as the earliest.

The 1990 game had a 10:45AM kickoff. I know because I stayed up the whole night.

[Pards Rule]

The 1990 game had a 10:45AM kickoff. I know because I stayed up the whole night.

I guess there was a few years there with the 10:45 times in late 80s & early 90s perhaps. Both schools still used wooden goalposts so there would be the traditional scramble to tear them down and get a section to display in your frats barroom and the associated fights with that effort. Fans would stay another half hour to 45 minutes to watch this "Fifth Quarter" action. There were some good fights and people would be like, "hey check this one out instead. They are going at it like heavyweights." I believe the last year (correct me if not, LFN, Doc) of wooden posts was at Fisher Field in Easton PA in 1990 - exactly 25 years ago on November 17, 1990. The next year they were steel and that when the students I recall rushing the posts over at Goodman, actually paused on both ends trying to figure out what to do knowing they were steel! It ended up with the students hurling chunks of the field sod at cops, fights and pepper spray being unleashed. In the end, the goalpost tradition survived one more year (in a way) as the crowd then swarmed the adjacent JV field and ripped those wooden posts down after the melee at Goodman.

[Bill]

For your viewing pleasure about the infamous 1991 game:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94ovbe5mdtlir83/battlefield.pdf?dl=0

the pictures are interesting....

[Bill]

Sorry gents, not a secret, tired of typing in phone late that night. Nothing sordid, just really odd-ball story. Source is my final years there as well as a coach, some years later. Around '90-91 Hank was told he'd be able to finish out his contract, but program was to go in another direction...he was offered a spot in administration upon 'retirement,' 'moving on,' what have you. He said he wanted to continue coaching not be an administrator. That part is somewhat clear. He then had a break out year in '91, we went 9-2, beat every Yankee conf team we played, losing to an undefeated 11-0 HC in Duffner's last year there. We lost a head scratcher up in Hamilton. Gets somewhat cloudy here by the reports, but, after that year, it was felt he deserved an extension (not sure by whom, Hank, admin, boosters??), since we knocked on the door of a first PL championship, HC had phased out all full scholarships, and then Duffner went to Maryland. Unclear if he assumed he'd get extension, or whether administration was still ready to move program to other leadership. Either way, we had an awful '92, lost to Leopards during the 10am kickoff game there (after the '91 riots on the field and pepper spray of students), and it became clear he was NOT getting more time and that an admin job at LU wasn't in the cards either. Much speculation as to why---his religious bent was true, but didn't really pressure players. He did stockpile offense 3 deep with some guys who could have helped a marginal defense, their were rumors he had odd recruiting battles with admin (which we never saw, there was never any racism or ugliness like that, so who knows).

So that made '93 pretty important for him career-wise, needed to somehow erase the '92 run, emphasize his success in '91 to move on, and make '93 a big year. And if you recall prior to that season, we did something never done before...landed a ton of junior college kids and I-A transfers (one who pretty much derailed my career). This new practice either was met with more friction, was the product of his need to land some impact kids to fill holes and make the upcoming season a winning one, or part of the vague "his recruiting practices/battles" rumors we couldn't make heads or tails of. What I can say is I know of only one of those JC guys who stayed, played, and graduated. That just isn't the Lehigh way.

In the end, we won the league for the first time that '93 with a 7-4 record, got stomped by Delaware and Idaho OOC (who each made solid playoff runs). Higgins was promoted and we got a slew of new faces and younger stars got promoted (Dave Clawson for example). At the time, Hank just kinda quietly disappeared until year(s) later emerged at Wake Forest. A year into the Higgins tenure, I asked him what happened to Hank because I really got along with Kevin, helped him move his home, he was a great guy (who several years later offered me a look at a GA spot--in the stands of the West Chester-Villanova nite game--if med school tanked). His reply, and it was awkward, was, "professionally, it was time for Hank to move on." Curious for sure.

It was years later I heard from inside guys there was some internal friction, and since he waited late to have a job lined up, delayed interest in an admin post at LU that never materialized or was rescinded, he ended up delivering for UPS. Because of the temporal relationship of his leaving and year later reappearing at Wake, something was certainly odd. He was in his mid to early 50's then, so I don't think he was retiring. Just odd, because he did put some numbers up on offense...I gotta think he had offers in some capacity over those years, but he was maybe after a specific offer or opportunity. He did right by me when I looked to transfer, calling other head coaches on my behalf. Hell, my sons' flag football team I was head coach for this year used some of those old pass plays!

So, long story short, and to the point of the thread, I guess not fired, but weird.

Thanks for the insight Doc….
Here’s some of mine. After Lehigh, I went to work at a DIII school in NJ. Because of our relationship with LU, we had quite the array of ex-LU players come coach there, including Mike Hendricks, Larry Arrico, Kevin Costello, and Pete Sczerbinski.
I was also close to the Hank situation….and I agree with everything how Doc portrayed it. He was out of coaching for that year out of Lehigh – but not too far away from it. Hank spent over a week with us in preseason camp helping us install Lehigh’s offense. We ran it, word for word, play for play. Had quite a bit of success too. He even came to two of our contests that year.
We scrimmaged Princeton at old Palmer that year. I loved the look on then coach Steve Toches face when he showed up with us. We absolutely torched their defense, even using our D3 players. Hank (of course) knew exactly what to call. We also beat a few nationally ranked (D3) teams with him up in the booth as guest coach. I’ll always remember him asking Larry Arrico (on the other end of the headset) if he should call off the dogs, because it was just “too easy because they wouldn’t adjust to the formations” he was giving them….this was just before the west coast offense had taken off at the d3 level. Fun times, for sure. Always a gentleman, and always willing to teach and help out his former players!

[Pards Rule]

For your viewing pleasure about the infamous 1991 game:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94ovbe5mdtlir83/battlefield.pdf?dl=0

the pictures are interesting....

Thanks Bill! Wow an article debating the future of L&L too!!