Scott Boras Is An Ass!

[UNHWildCats]

with just over 3 days left in the negotiating window between the Red Sox and Daisuke Matsuzaka, agent Scott Boras has thus far failed to make a counter offer on the offer Boston made over 10 days ago. Boras has made no effort at all in getting an agreement done.

Matsuzaka returned to the US saturday to some reports that he has arrived to take the lead in negotiations with Boston. Should a deal fail to happen Matsuzaka would return to his Japananese team whom hes already bid farewell to and the fans. Returning after having been posted for the largest fee ever would be an embarassment for Matsuzaka so theres still hope he can lead a deal in the next 48 hours.

Scott Boras and the Red Sox have had a very good working relationship over the past several years which not many teams can claim with Boras, including the large contract negotiated last week for OF J.D. Drew, so its unclear why Boras would stall negotiations other then to attempt to break down the posting system.

Should Boras stall the negotiations past the deadline, for his won greedy purposes he should be suspended by the MLBPA as a licensed agent.

[bluehenbillk]

You just came to that conclusion about Boras?

[JoltinJoe]

Boras is a shrewd agent looking to get the most for his client. Like him or not, he is very good at what he does.

One way as an attorney that I convey to the other side that an offer is deemed woefully insufficient is that I don't make a counteroffer. This effectively tells the other side that I not only deem their offer insufficient but that it is so far below my client's expectations that it isn't even worth discussing at that number.

Now the other side will start asking for a counteroffer, saying that upping its own offer without having received a counteroffer is like "bidding against itself." That's when you know that you have them. So then you counteroffer, going from $15 million a year to let's say $14 million a year, but then changing some other term of their offer, and then you watch their reaction.

The Sox need D-Mat. Boras knows it. They posted $51 million just to negotiate with him.

This deal will get done and it will get done at number much closer to what Boras wants than the Sox current offer.

[UNHWildCats]

im confident it will get done now that Matsuzaka has arrived in the US to take the lead in negotiations, but its irresponsible of Boras to have not made a counter offer after 26 days into the negotiating window.

What most thought would be the major stiucking point was length, after having bid $51.1 million to negotiate wioth him, Boston was firm on wanting him locked up for the 6 years there entitled with now out clause after 3 and surprisingly Boras said he wanted a 6 year deal.

In the end I still see it around $13 per year with incetives that could reach it to $17 mil per year over 6 years

[GannonFan]

The thing is, Boras does not have a good hand to play with here. Sure the Red Sox posted $51 million just to be able to have a chance to sign this kid, but they get it all back if he goes unsigned by the deadline. The worst that happens to the Sox is they take some bad publicity for not coming through with a much needed pitcher (assuming they don't sign a Zito for instance). However, this kid from Japan is the one who has the most to lose because if a deal can't be reached, he's stuck in Japan for a few more years where he doesn't want to be and where he'll make much less than even the lowball offer from the Red Sox. The system may suck, but I'm not sure fighting the system so other's in the future can profit from his moral stand is what this kid's goal is - I'm sure it's Boras's goal since that means more money for him. That's where I think Boras is a bad agent - he doesn't always look out for his client's best interests, he looks out for his own and if it works out for his client by coincidence then great. Of course, this should be well known by now and only a fool would go with Boras without taking this into account.

[JoltinJoe]

He's got one more year in Japan before he can sign in the US without restriction. That's why he was posted this year.

I think Boras figures he can get far more than what the Sox are offering if D-Mat can negotiate with anyone without restriction. So he's saying either ante up the $15 million, or he'll got back to Japan for a year and then the sky's the limit.

When you hire Boras as your agent, you're telling the world you want top dollar. As I read in a column the other day, if you hire Boras, you're saying quality of life issues are secondary -- instead you want to make sure that your grandkids' grandkids drive BMWs.

[UNHWildCats]

He's got one more year in Japan before he can sign in the US without restriction. That's why he was posted this year.

I think Boras figures he can get far more than what the Sox are offering if D-Mat can negotiate with anyone without restriction. So he's saying either ante up the $15 million, or he'll got back to Japan for a year and then the sky's the limit.

When you hire Boras as your agent, you're telling the world you want top dollar. As I read in a column the other day, if you hire Boras, you're saying quality of life issues are secondary -- instead you want to make sure that your grandkids' grandkids drive BMWs.

Daisuke Matsuzaka if forced to go back to Japan even if it means more money mid season of 2008 when he would be eligible to sign freely with any MLB team hw would lose face to Japanese fans for failing to leave when a team offered up 51.1 million to have right to sign him.

He has already bid farewell in Japan and has no interest in going back with his tail between his legs which is probably why he has come to take the lead in negotiations.

Also While HE maybe worth top dollar and Im fairly certain he will perform just fine here theres no evidence to prove it, no japanese pitcher has had a stellar career here yet, Hideo Nomo comes closest but still not STELLAR. I think they shopuld be looking towards a reasonable base salary with large incetives for raching certain things say $1 million for 200 Ks $2 million for 300 Ks $2 million for 20 wins and so forth.

[KAUMASS]

Glad to see you switched your avatar to appy state. It worked well for us last week when you had your avatar as a Griz. Great conference and regional loyalty.

[Sam Adams]

Yeah nice loyalty cat, your a real A10 guy through and through.xlolx


The Red Sox were stupid to put themselves in this situation to begin with. They have no idea whether or not DMat is going to be good in the show. There have been alot of Japanese pitching phenoms who have spit the bit once the got to the show. So now the Sox are committed to paying top dollar for 6 yrs or so to a player who may be nothing better than mediocre against big league hitters.

This is the same front office that 1 year ago low balled Johnny Damon and said it couldn't possibly match the Yankees offer of 13/Mil. Since they the Sox fron office has turned round and overpaid JD Drew for more money than Damon took with the yankees. Now they will overpay DMat and hope he doesn't suck.

Epstein and the Sox front office are a joke. They stupidly dismantled a world Championship team in less than 2 years and they should be held directly accountable...but they won't be.

[UNHWildCats]

Glad to see you switched your avatar to appy state. It worked well for us last week when you had your avatar as a Griz. Great conference and regional loyalty.

My only loyalty is to school, state and country. The hell with conference or regional loyalty, IT DONT EXIST.

PS if it were any other A-10/CAA school I would be rooting for them xcoffeex

[UNHWildCats]

Yeah nice loyalty cat, your a real A10 guy through and through.xlolx


The Red Sox were stupid to put themselves in this situation to begin with. They have no idea whether or not DMat is going to be good in the show. There have been alot of Japanese pitching phenoms who have spit the bit once the got to the show. So now the Sox are committed to paying top dollar for 6 yrs or so to a player who may be nothing better than mediocre against big league hitters.

This is the same front office that 1 year ago low balled Johnny Damon and said it couldn't possibly match the Yankees offer of 13/Mil. Since they the Sox fron office has turned round and overpaid JD Drew for more money than Damon took with the yankees. Now they will overpay DMat and hope he doesn't suck.

Epstein and the Sox front office are a joke. They stupidly dismantled a world Championship team in less than 2 years and they should be held directly accountable...but they won't be.

Damon isnt all that, Pedro has falled apart in NY (big surprise), Millar is a joke, Mueller is retired, Bellhorn and Embree have imploded on themselves. The only player from 2004 that shouldnt have been let go was Orlando Cabrera

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Damon isnt all that, Pedro has falled apart in NY (big surprise), Millar is a joke, Mueller is retired, Bellhorn and Embree have imploded on themselves. The only player from 2004 that shouldnt have been let go was Orlando Cabrera

History has proven that signing Pedro for the years he wanted was not a good business move. Time might make the same statement with Damon. But in another era, there's no way in heck that they would have been allowed to walk. Can you imagine the Celtics breaking up Bird-McHale-Parrish after winning championships? They were allowed to finish their careers in Boston.

BTW, I could make an argument that Derek Lowe shouldn't have been let go. Suffice it to say that he would have been a significant upgrade last season!!

The Sox might have really gone in the tank in 2007 with Pedro breaking down, but who knows what they might have accomplished in 2005 and 2006 if Petey, Derek, Johnny and Orlando were still on board! I would have preferred to have found out! :nod:

And for old farts like me, it is really difficult to watch this rent a shortstop and 2nd baseman parade the Sox have had. : smh : One of the many reasons I'm not a rabid pro sports fan anymore.

[UNHWildCats]

History has proven that signing Pedro for the years he wanted was not a good business move. Time might make the same statement with Damon. But in another era, there's no way in heck that they would have been allowed to walk. Can you imagine the Celtics breaking up Bird-McHale-Parrish after winning championships? They were allowed to finish their careers in Boston.

BTW, I could make an argument that Derek Lowe shouldn't have been let go. Suffice it to say that he would have been a significant upgrade last season!!

The Sox might have really gone in the tank in 2007 with Pedro breaking down, but who knows what they might have accomplished in 2005 and 2006 if Petey, Derek, Johnny and Orlando were still on board! I would have preferred to have found out! :nod:

And for old farts like me, it is really difficult to watch this rent a shortstop and 2nd baseman parade the Sox have had. : smh : One of the many reasons I'm not a rabid pro sports fan anymore.

His 2006 season he was 8-7 before Maddux was traded to the dodgers and 8-1 afterwards. It could be easy to credit Maddux with workin with him on the side for the turn around.

He was 12-15 in 2005.

[LeopardFan04]

I just read that Boras says he's worth a hundred million...I don't think this deal is going to get done...

[umassfan]

My only loyalty is to school, state and country. The hell with conference or regional loyalty, IT DONT EXIST.

PS if it were any other A-10/CAA school I would be rooting for them xcoffeex


Aww someone cant take the fact that UMass beat his school twice in one season. I hope mainejeff has an App helmet also. You guys are doing great work.:thumbsup:

[Sam Adams]

The red sox won the championship in 2004 and then decided to dismantle the team. If you want to argue that it was a good decision - then explain why since 2004 the team has gotten progressively worse. The front office made dumb decisions supposedly based upon financial reasons. In now turns out that those were not the reasons, since we are ponying up more money now for less talent then we let get away. Its very very simple: if you want to repeat as world champs you don't break up the team - that is why the yankees had such a nice run back in the mid 90's. The red sox ignored the blue print and instead followed the path of the 86 mets which won and then immediately began dismantling for no good reasons.

way to go sox.

[UNHWildCats]

Boston to offer "record" deal to Matsuzaka. Will Leave Wednesday morning, with or without him

By Gordon Edes, Globe Staff

Red Sox GM Theo Epstein in a post-midnight conference call described the dramatic turn that took place last night in the negotiations for Daisuke Matsuzaka, saying that with John W. Henry providing the plane, he and CEO Larry Lucchino flew to southern California, unsolicited, for a meeting with agent Scott Boras in the Daisuke Matsuzaka negotiations.

Epstein said the team plans to make another offer, one that will be the largest ever given to a player who has never played in the big leagues, and the largest given to a Japanese player. But it remains to be seen if that will satisfy Boras, who has made the case that Matsuzaka is one of the game's elite pitchers and should be paid as such, with no weight given to the size of the bid the Sox paid for exclusivity to negotiate with him. That $51.1 million, Boras has stated, is just another indication of how valuable a talent Matsuzaka said.

A feisty John W. Henry, frustration evident in his voice, said: "I think it's also fair to say we're on Scott Boras's doorstep because he hasn't negotiated with us so far. We're taking the fight directly to him to try to have a negotiation here.''

[AppGuy04]

This is news? Did they not know what they would be dealing with?

[UNHWildCats]

Deal or No Deal
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/BDD_SB_TE_deal.jpg

[Ivytalk]

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of "Samurai Pitcher."xcoffeex

Masanori Murakami never got that kind of coin, and he was probably better than this guy.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I hope mainejeff has an App helmet also.

The last time I read a post from MJ, he was sporting the UMass helmet as his avatar. Sorry to break the bad news to you!! xlolx

[JoltinJoe]

Boston to offer "record" deal to Matsuzaka. Will Leave Wednesday morning, with or without him

By Gordon Edes, Globe Staff

Red Sox GM Theo Epstein in a post-midnight conference call described the dramatic turn that took place last night in the negotiations for Daisuke Matsuzaka, saying that with John W. Henry providing the plane, he and CEO Larry Lucchino flew to southern California, unsolicited, for a meeting with agent Scott Boras in the Daisuke Matsuzaka negotiations.

Epstein said the team plans to make another offer, one that will be the largest ever given to a player who has never played in the big leagues, and the largest given to a Japanese player. But it remains to be seen if that will satisfy Boras, who has made the case that Matsuzaka is one of the game's elite pitchers and should be paid as such, with no weight given to the size of the bid the Sox paid for exclusivity to negotiate with him. That $51.1 million, Boras has stated, is just another indication of how valuable a talent Matsuzaka said.

A feisty John W. Henry, frustration evident in his voice, said: "I think it's also fair to say we're on Scott Boras's doorstep because he hasn't negotiated with us so far. We're taking the fight directly to him to try to have a negotiation here.''

I'm kinda enjoying the way Boras is torturing the real evil empire -- if you can call a second-place team that wins a World Series about once a century an "empire."

[andy7171]

Am I correct in that if no deal is made, the Japanese team has to reimburse the posted $51M and take the player back? If so, why is Boras taking this to the wire?

BTW, as an Oriole fan, I despise Boras. He holds teams up. Angelos won't even talk about players he represents. If Boras is their agent, he won't have any thing to do with him. Which sucks because Boras has all the best players.

[UNHWildCats]

Am I correct in that if no deal is made, the Japanese team has to reimburse the posted $51M and take the player back? If so, why is Boras taking this to the wire?

BTW, as an Oriole fan, I despise Boras. He holds teams up. Angelos won't even talk about players he represents. If Boras is their agent, he won't have any thing to do with him. Which sucks because Boras has all the best players.

The posting fee isnt due until 72 hours after a posted player signs with the MLB team, so Seibu hasnt actually gotten anything yet.

[UNHWildCats]

Boras and Matsuzaka are on the plane with Theo and company heading to Boston. Sources say the deal isnt done, but is close.

Boras backed down from his $100 million demand and has reportedly last offered 6 years at $11 million per season. Thats likely to also have incentives and escalators that would bring the value up should he perform as a top rate starter.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Am I correct in that if no deal is made, the Japanese team has to reimburse the posted $51M and take the player back? If so, why is Boras taking this to the wire?

BTW, as an Oriole fan, I despise Boras. He holds teams up. Angelos won't even talk about players he represents. If Boras is their agent, he won't have any thing to do with him. Which sucks because Boras has all the best players.

Why. Simple. Worst case scenario, he goes back to Japan and plays for a year (or even is forced to sit out the year should his team feel he is a distraction....doubtful).

Then, next year, he is a FREE agent, not limited to a single team. So when .500 pitchers like Burnett got 11 million last year and Lily 10 million this year...Boras knows that his guy can get a $12 - 15 million per year contract on an open market for 6-7 years. Potentially more per season for a 3 year deal WITHOUT a team having to post $51 million.

To simplify...

The Red Sox have offered Matsuzaka $8 million for 6 years, a total of $48 million. Add the $51 million and they ARE willing to pay his Japanese team for his services, a total of $16.5 million per season. It's more profitable FOR Matsuzaka to NOT PITCH this upcoming year if Boston isn't going to up their offer significantly.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Boras and Matsuzaka are on the plane with Theo and company heading to Boston. Sources say the deal isnt done, but is close.

Boras backed down from his $100 million demand and has reportedly last offered 6 years at $11 million per season. Thats likely to also have incentives and escalators that would bring the value up should he perform as a top rate starter.

Which is a fare deal. $11 million with incentives sounds about right based on the current market.

[MrTitleist]

Scott Boras is a joke. He's a cancer to baseball. Guy should have his teeth kicked in for the amount of money he demands for the players he represents. No human being is worth the amount of money teams pay for them. In the long run, all it means is us fans get to pay more for tickets and hot dogs to pay the contract of some overpaid player and his asswipe agent.

[UNHWildCats]

Matsuzaka would not be a free agent after 2007. He could be posted again but could not be signed as a free agent until after the 2008 seaons. Not that it matters apparently.

[AZGrizFan]

Which is a fare deal. $11 million with incentives sounds about right based on the current market.

Good lord. $11 mil for a guy who's never pitched a day in the major leagues.

WAFJ. Baseball has completely lost their collective minds this off-season. I'm actually GLAD the D-Backs haven't raided their piggybank to overpay some fat stiff (see Russ Ortiz, et. al., over the past few years). I'd rather watch the young guys play than a bunch of overpaid journeymen.

The day a 18/70/.275 hitter gets $7.3 mil (Gonzo from Dodgers) is the day I officially know the baseball world has gone crazy. xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx

[bluehenbillk]

Hey D-Mat will pitch in Boston this year. Seibu doesn't want the guy anymore as they want to see the $$. If the difference is 2-3M per year I wouldn't be surprised if they gave the Red Sox the cash to get it done.

[GannonFan]

Why. Simple. Worst case scenario, he goes back to Japan and plays for a year (or even is forced to sit out the year should his team feel he is a distraction....doubtful).

Then, next year, he is a FREE agent, not limited to a single team. So when .500 pitchers like Burnett got 11 million last year and Lily 10 million this year...Boras knows that his guy can get a $12 - 15 million per year contract on an open market for 6-7 years. Potentially more per season for a 3 year deal WITHOUT a team having to post $51 million.

To simplify...

The Red Sox have offered Matsuzaka $8 million for 6 years, a total of $48 million. Add the $51 million and they ARE willing to pay his Japanese team for his services, a total of $16.5 million per season. It's more profitable FOR Matsuzaka to NOT PITCH this upcoming year if Boston isn't going to up their offer significantly.

Actually, he's not a free agent until after 2 more years (this upcoming year and one more) - if he wanted to come to the US next year (assuming things don't work out with the Red Sox this year) he would have to be posted again. Of course, then he runs the risk of the Red Sox posting a ridiculous amount just with the intent not to sign him (i.e. don't let the Yankees get him) and then he's stuck in Japan for another year. But he could be stuck there for 2 years being paid much less than what even an average pitcher makes here in the US.

[kardplayer]

Scott Boras is a joke. He's a cancer to baseball. Guy should have his teeth kicked in for the amount of money he demands for the players he represents. No human being is worth the amount of money teams pay for them. In the long run, all it means is us fans get to pay more for tickets and hot dogs to pay the contract of some overpaid player and his asswipe agent.

Do you really think that player salaries have any impact on ticket prices?

The owners are going to charge us whatever makes them the most revenue. How they share it with the players through salaries is irrelevant.

[GannonFan]

Good lord. $11 mil for a guy who's never pitched a day in the major leagues.

WAFJ. Baseball has completely lost their collective minds this off-season. I'm actually GLAD the D-Backs haven't raided their piggybank to overpay some fat stiff (see Russ Ortiz, et. al., over the past few years). I'd rather watch the young guys play than a bunch of overpaid journeymen.

The day a 18/70/.275 hitter gets $7.3 mil (Gonzo from Dodgers) is the day I officially know the baseball world has gone crazy. xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx

Come on, it's not like the guy is a complete unknown. Japanese baseball is a far superior product to what it used to be, and there is ample precedence for players making the transition to MLB very successfully. Besides, scouting of the Japanese league is so much better today than 20 years ago that this guy isn't a shot in the dark, he's almost a sure thing, and that's without ever pitching one pitch here (well, outside of the WBC where he pitched very well against MLB hitters).

[andy7171]

$11M sounds right. I mean its an ungodly amount, but in the MLB where Gary Matthews Jr, gets $10M for 5 years, anything is justifyable.

WTF are the Angels thinking????

[GannonFan]

And now he's a Red Sox.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/12/13/matsuzaka.signs/index.html

[UNHWildCats]

the $52 million man is over Illinois

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N611JW

[AZGrizFan]

Come on, it's not like the guy is a complete unknown. Japanese baseball is a far superior product to what it used to be, and there is ample precedence for players making the transition to MLB very successfully. Besides, scouting of the Japanese league is so much better today than 20 years ago that this guy isn't a shot in the dark, he's almost a sure thing, and that's without ever pitching one pitch here (well, outside of the WBC where he pitched very well against MLB hitters).

Casey Daigle pitched very well against MLB hitters IN SPRING TRAINING too.

Where's he at now?

I don't care if he's Hideo Freaking Nomo. Somebody who has not thrown a single pitch at the major league level is NOT worth $11 mil in my book. I'll be rooting for him (and the Red Sox) to fail. xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex

[JoltinJoe]

Good lord. $11 mil for a guy who's never pitched a day in the major leagues.

WAFJ. Baseball has completely lost their collective minds this off-season. I'm actually GLAD the D-Backs haven't raided their piggybank to overpay some fat stiff (see Russ Ortiz, et. al., over the past few years). I'd rather watch the young guys play than a bunch of overpaid journeymen.

The day a 18/70/.275 hitter gets $7.3 mil (Gonzo from Dodgers) is the day I officially know the baseball world has gone crazy. xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx

This contract -- especially when coupled with a posting fee -- sets new heights for absurdity in baseball.

I know it's a chic thing to blame the Yankees for the increase in players' salaries but once again some team other than the Yankees has pushed baseball salaries to a new, ridiculous extreme.

[UNHWildCats]

caluculating in the posting fee it comes to about 17 million per season.

Is that really absurd when a washed up Andy Pettitte just got a 16 million per season deal or the likes of Gil Meche 11 per season and Lilly 10 mil per season are out there grabbing contracts?

[Ivytalk]

caluculating in the posting fee it comes to about 17 million per season.

Is that really absurd when a washed up Andy Pettitte just got a 16 million per season deal or the likes of Gil Meche 11 per season and Lilly 10 mil per season are out there grabbing contracts?

You just reinforced Joe's point! The use of "the likes of" confirms the La-la-land nature of BB economics.

[JoltinJoe]

caluculating in the posting fee it comes to about 17 million per season.

Is that really absurd when a washed up Andy Pettitte just got a 16 million per season deal or the likes of Gil Meche 11 per season and Lilly 10 mil per season are out there grabbing contracts?

17 million a season for six seasons. The Sox just made about a $102 to $117 million commitment (depending on the source) for a guy who has never thrown a big league pitch. What if he is the next Hideki Irabu? Do you remember how celebrated Irabu was?

The Yanks made a one-year, $16 million commitment (w/ an option for a second) to a proven major league pitcher with 186 career wins, a career 3.8 ERA, and a guy who won 14 games last year despite being injured for a significant time. Plus, his ERA was 2.8 aftee he returned from his injury last year.

If Pettite is washed up, it's a one-year mistake and certainly a better option than Lilliy at 4 years and $40 million or Gil Meche for five years $55 million. If Matsuzaka is a mistake, it's a huge mistake that will be felt for years.

[GannonFan]

This contract -- especially when coupled with a posting fee -- sets new heights for absurdity in baseball.

I know it's a chic thing to blame the Yankees for the increase in players' salaries but once again some team other than the Yankees has pushed baseball salaries to a new, ridiculous extreme.

You know, even with this signing, the Red Sox annual payroll is still almost $100 million dollars less than the Yankees payroll. Let's not throw the Yanks into the category of a "controlled spending team" just quite yet. Methinks that the price tag of more than $1B spent by the Yanks since their last World Series title is skewing your thinking here. :nono:

[JoltinJoe]

You know, even with this signing, the Red Sox annual payroll is still almost $100 million dollars less than the Yankees payroll. Let's not throw the Yanks into the category of a "controlled spending team" just quite yet. Methinks that the price tag of more than $1B spent by the Yanks since their last World Series title is skewing your thinking here. :nono:

That $1B has proven enough to beat out the Sox every year. How did third place look to you last year?

Sure the Yankees spend more, but they obviously spend smarter too.

[GannonFan]

That $1B has proven enough to beat out the Sox every year. How did third place look to you last year?

Sure the Yankees spend more, but they obviously spend smarter too.

Dude, I'm not a Red Sox fan nor from the New England or New York areas, I could care less how the Yankees do versus them. As Michael Wilbon on PTI keeps talking about, there is more to baseball than the Yankees and the Sox (the red kind). And anyway, how much smarter do they spend anyway? Since 2001, the Red Sox have 1 WS title and the Yankees have zero. Seeing how the Sox spent, on average (they are higher now), about $115M per year over that time and the Yanks spent, on average, about $200M per year, that's a total of $690M for the Sox and $1.2B for the Yanks. How is spending more than $0.5B for less World Series titles smarter? I know the Yankees don't talk about WS's anymore since they don't win them anymore (notice how the emphasis is now on regular season standings and division titles - my, how the goals have diminished), but they used to be the goal. Memories, huh? :smiley_wi

[JoltinJoe]

Dude, I'm not a Red Sox fan nor from the New England or New York areas, I could care less how the Yankees do versus them. As Michael Wilbon on PTI keeps talking about, there is more to baseball than the Yankees and the Sox (the red kind). And anyway, how much smarter do they spend anyway? Since 2001, the Red Sox have 1 WS title and the Yankees have zero. Seeing how the Sox spent, on average (they are higher now), about $115M per year over that time and the Yanks spent, on average, about $200M per year, that's a total of $690M for the Sox and $1.2B for the Yanks. How is spending more than $0.5B for less World Series titles smarter? I know the Yankees don't talk about WS's anymore since they don't win them anymore (notice how the emphasis is now on regular season standings and division titles - my, how the goals have diminished), but they used to be the goal. Memories, huh? :smiley_wi

Gee, all we have is 26 WS titles. And it's been six whole years since the last one. :rolleyes:

[GannonFan]

Gee, all we have is 26 WS titles. And it's been six whole years since the last one. :rolleyes:

Well, typical Yankee fan, bringing up tons of WS titles won before anyone here was even born. I don't care about the 20's and the 30's. Fact is, after the strike in 1994, George opened his wallet and the Yanks benefited from that largesse and won 4 titles in 5 years. Since then, he's even opened it up more, but they went away from what won those titles for them (pitching, pitching, pitching) and went for the sexy lineup and that's gotten them absolutely zilch. That's why it's $1.2B of wasted money. And that's why no matter what a team like Boston may do, they won't ever take over that Evil Empire mantle since they are still significantly less in payroll than your beloved Yanks. But you know times are tough for Yankee fans when they fall back on the "how many WS have we won all-time". I'm not sure Petite is enough to get them over the hump again this year - heck, right now you still need to pitch Randy Johnson come playoff time so good luck with that - could be looking at $1.4B after this year and still no WS title. Maybe they should put up a running tally board in Times Square, like the one that keeps track of the national debt - to see how much George has spent with no success? :nod:

[bluehenbillk]

Gee, all we have is 26 WS titles. And it's been six whole years since the last one. :rolleyes:


Year 2000 :hurray: :hurray: Year 2000:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

[JoltinJoe]

Year 2000 :hurray: :hurray: Year 2000:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

1918
:hurray:

(Still works, as that was the last time the Sox "won it all." P.S. -- If you're a wild card, you didn't win it all).

[UNHWildCats]

1918
:hurray:

(Still works, as that was the last time the Sox "won it all." P.S. -- If you're a wild card, you didn't win it all).

if that helps u sleep better at night, OK

[GannonFan]

1918
:hurray:

(Still works, as that was the last time the Sox "won it all." P.S. -- If you're a wild card, you didn't win it all).

Wow, that's just plain looney - the Red Sox didn't win it all in 2004 (when they won the World Series) because they were a wild card team? That could easily be one of the most looniest theories I've ever heard on these boards, and there have been plenty of whoppers. Geesh!

[Ivytalk]

Wow, that's just plain looney - the Red Sox didn't win it all in 2004 (when they won the World Series) because they were a wild card team? That could easily be one of the most looniest theories I've ever heard on these boards, and there have been plenty of whoppers. Geesh!

Joe is a baseball purist, as am I. I don't believe in the wild card system or in the designated hitter.

[bluehenbillk]

Joltin Joe is in denial. He has put the fact that the Red Sox were down 3 games to zero & losing in the bottom of the 9th with Rivera on the hill & then it all imploded into the recesses of his mind.

I guess the Marlins didn't beat the Yankees in the Series either since they were a wildcard....

Year 2000 :hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

[GannonFan]

Joe is a baseball purist, as am I. I don't believe in the wild card system or in the designated hitter.

There's being a purist and then being silly. Since Joe loves the Yanks does he protest in some way that they are defiling baseball by being part of the league that does use the designated hitter? Was he upset when the AL umps went to wearing chest protectors rather than using the hand held "shields". How do you guys feel now that the same umpires are used by both leagues rather than strictly NL and AL umps? Are all WS winners who didn't have the best record in their league that year all not considered true winners since I'm sure you guys are against divisional play as well? I guess it was a good thing the Yanks lost to the Diamondbacks back in 2001 since the Yanks couldn't win it all that year anyway - the Mariners won the regular season title so a WS title would've seemed so empty. :rolleyes:

[DinoDex200]

"Scott Boras Is An Ass!"

Seriously, can we just sticky this thread? And create a Drew Rosenhaus one as well?

[JoltinJoe]

Joltin Joe is in denial. He has put the fact that the Red Sox were down 3 games to zero & losing in the bottom of the 9th with Rivera on the hill & then it all imploded into the recesses of his mind.

I guess the Marlins didn't beat the Yankees in the Series either since they were a wildcard....

Year 2000 :hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

I know that's your only great moment in about 90 years. So enjoy it. It's all you've got.

If all we had in 90 years was a wild card championship, we'd probably cherish it too.

Next time (if there is one), win the division so you can say you "won it all."

[JoltinJoe]

There's being a purist and then being silly. Since Joe loves the Yanks does he protest in some way that they are defiling baseball by being part of the league that does use the designated hitter? Was he upset when the AL umps went to wearing chest protectors rather than using the hand held "shields". How do you guys feel now that the same umpires are used by both leagues rather than strictly NL and AL umps? Are all WS winners who didn't have the best record in their league that year all not considered true winners since I'm sure you guys are against divisional play as well? I guess it was a good thing the Yanks lost to the Diamondbacks back in 2001 since the Yanks couldn't win it all that year anyway - the Mariners won the regular season title so a WS title would've seemed so empty. :rolleyes:

xcoffeex

For the record, the Yankees were (as usual) AL East Champions in 2001, as well as AL Champions. So if they had won the WS, they would have "won it all" -- "winning it all" means winning every title available to you.

[JoltinJoe]

Joe is a baseball purist, as am I. I don't believe in the wild card system or in the designated hitter.

Finally, another purist. xprost2x

Ivy, this year's World Series was a purist's nightmare. A second place team against a division "champion" that finished five games over .500.

:giveadamn:
Who won? Who cares? Another year without a real champion.

[GannonFan]

Finally, another purist. xprost2x

Ivy, this year's World Series was a purist's nightmare. A second place team against a division "champion" that finished five games over .500.

:giveadamn:
Who won? Who cares? Another year without a real champion.

You're not a purist, you're just simply inconsistent. Now you're bashing the Cardinals? Didn't they win every title they possibly could? Division? Check. Pennant? Check. World Series title? Check. Why does it matter what record they had? You just had a post saying that the Yanks would've won it all in 2001 if Mariano hadn't coughed it up to the Diamondbacks, but that flies in the face of the fact that they, like the Cardinals of this year, did not have the most wins of any divisional winner that year. And frankly, if you're a purist, you should be hearkening back to when the pennant winner was the team with the most wins in the regular season, back before baseball "defiled" the game with divisions and things like the NLCS, the ALCS, and night baseball! xidiotx

[JoltinJoe]

You're not a purist, you're just simply inconsistent. Now you're bashing the Cardinals? Didn't they win every title they possibly could? Division? Check. Pennant? Check. World Series title? Check. Why does it matter what record they had? You just had a post saying that the Yanks would've won it all in 2001 if Mariano hadn't coughed it up to the Diamondbacks, but that flies in the face of the fact that they, like the Cardinals of this year, did not have the most wins of any divisional winner that year. And frankly, if you're a purist, you should be hearkening back to when the pennant winner was the team with the most wins in the regular season, back before baseball "defiled" the game with divisions and things like the NLCS, the ALCS, and night baseball! xidiotx

xcoffeex

Seriously, can you miss the point more often? xidiotx

Maybe you ought to deal with what I write and not with what you extrapolate by your genius logic skills. Don't tell me what I have to believe in in order to be a "purist." And don't tell me that if I don't hate the DH, then I have to be in love with the fact that a bunch of second-place teams -- and now a team that finished five games over .500 -- have deluded themselves (and you) into thinking that they are "world champions."

But if you must know, baseball has expanded too much to have a one division in each league. So we have to have a divisional playoff at this point. I'd split the AL into two divisions of seven teams and the NL into two divisions of eight teams. Best of seven LCS series to advance to the WS. This would avoid future situations where a team five games over .500 "wins" a division, and certainly would get rid of also ran teams likes the Marlins and Red Sox who couldn't prove even to be the best in their own division over 162 games.

[GannonFan]

xcoffeex

Seriously, can you miss the point more often? xidiotx

I dunno, it depends on how long you can go ignoring the point you made when you decried the inclusion of the Cardinals and deriding them as "champions" (quotes are yours). Don't make points you just want to ignore later when it becomes too hard to justify why you made it in the first place. (oh, this is the time when you should talk down to me as being a Red Sox or Cardinals fan, of which I am neither, and reminding me of all the titles the Yanks have won, even before both of us were alive, and how that now disqualifies me from having a baseball opinion - it's the Yankee fan way)! ;)

[JoltinJoe]

I dunno, it depends on how long you can go ignoring the point you made when you decried the inclusion of the Cardinals and deriding them as "champions" (quotes are yours). Don't make points you just want to ignore later when it becomes too hard to justify why you made it in the first place. (oh, this is the time when you should talk down to me as being a Red Sox or Cardinals fan, of which I am neither, and reminding me of all the titles the Yanks have won, even before both of us were alive, and how that now disqualifies me from having a baseball opinion - it's the Yankee fan way)! ;)


Come on, can you deal with what I say? Or do you want to just keep beating on some straw man?

[GannonFan]

Come on, can you deal with what I say? Or do you want to just keep beating on some straw man?

Well, I dealt with what you said before you added the last two paragraphs to your earlier post. I'm sure if I changed my posts after you responded to them then I could likewise come up with some witty reply like "beating on some straw" too.

As for what you added to your earlier post, are you really going to be happy with a 2 divisional format in each league? You already seem unhappy with the Cardinals being just 5 games over .500 although they did win their division. What is the magic number for what is an acceptable number of wins for a divisional winner to be "a real winner" in your eyes? 6 games over? 7? Come on, tell us. Having 2 divisions doesn't exclude the possibility of having one divisional winner with a low win total - it may make it less likely than with 3 divisions, but the possibility is still very real. The Twins won the WS in 1987 despite only winning 85 games (2 more than the Cards this year) that year. You must have been pulling your hair out back in 1973 when the Mets, a lowly 82-79 that year, almost won the WS, losing in 7 games to the A's that year. A divisional winner with a smallish number of wins could still happen under your realignment so how does your change "fix" the abomination that you see that is an undeserving Cardinals team "falsely" claiming to have won it all this year?

[UNHWildCats]

There no point in arguing with a Yankee fan. To them the Yankees will always be the best and the Red Sox the worst.

Next season Boston could lead the Yanks 3 games to 2 in the ALCS after having been down 2-0 and then lose the last 2 and Yankee fans would call that a more major choke job then that of the Yankees in 2004

[JoltinJoe]

Well, I dealt with what you said before you added the last two paragraphs to your earlier post. I'm sure if I changed my posts after you responded to them then I could likewise come up with some witty reply like "beating on some straw" too.

As for what you added to your earlier post, are you really going to be happy with a 2 divisional format in each league? You already seem unhappy with the Cardinals being just 5 games over .500 although they did win their division. What is the magic number for what is an acceptable number of wins for a divisional winner to be "a real winner" in your eyes? 6 games over? 7? Come on, tell us. Having 2 divisions doesn't exclude the possibility of having one divisional winner with a low win total - it may make it less likely than with 3 divisions, but the possibility is still very real. The Twins won the WS in 1987 despite only winning 85 games (2 more than the Cards this year) that year. You must have been pulling your hair out back in 1973 when the Mets, a lowly 82-79 that year, almost won the WS, losing in 7 games to the A's that year. A divisional winner with a smallish number of wins could still happen under your realignment so how does your change "fix" the abomination that you see that is an undeserving Cardinals team "falsely" claiming to have won it all this year?

No, I'm not happy with a two-division format but divisions of 14 or 16 teams are just too unwieldy. So I'm resigned to the fact of at least two divisions. As you note, in a two-division format, some undeserving teams have in fact made it to the WS. But in a format where 27 percent of the teams advance to the playoffs -- well, let's just say you're inviting the day when a team which finishes just a few games over .500 squares off against a second-place team to determine the putative "champion."

Further, you seem to think that my rooting allegiance has something to do with this. That is not the case. To make that clear, let me state that I am a New York Giants fan. I have Giants season tickets. And I think it is an absolute joke that the Giants would advance to the playoffs if the season were to end today. But people defend the tournament format in football, saying that the short regular season is really just a set up for the playoff tournament. I think that's bull. Even so, how can you justify a tournament format with 27 percent of the teams advancing after playing 162 games?

[GannonFan]

No, I'm not happy with a two-division format but divisions of 14 or 16 teams are just too unwieldy. So I'm resigned to the fact of at least two divisions. As you note, in a two-division format, some undeserving teams have in fact made it to the WS. But in a format where 27 percent of the teams advance to the playoffs -- well, let's just say you're inviting the day when a team which finishes just a few games over .500 squares off against a second-place team to determine the putative "champion."

Further, you seem to think that my rooting allegiance has something to do with this. That is not the case. To make that clear, let me state that I am a New York Giants fan. I have Giants season tickets. And I think it is an absolute joke that the Giants would advance to the playoffs if the season were to end today. But people defend the tournament format in football, saying that the short regular season is really just a set up for the playoff tournament. I think that's bull. Even so, how can you justify a tournament format with 27 percent of the teams advancing after playing 162 games?

Well, first of all, I'm actually fine with two divisions, but I would also have two wild cards get in based on the next best records. I don't have a problem with 27% of the teams getting in because I think 13% would be too small and there's no great way to bridge that gap. While I argued against your position of 2 divisions, it was only because you seemed to argue that it would stop teams with bad records getting in - it minimizes the chance, but doesn't eliminate it. But going with 2 divisions does mean that only one has a chance to be a dud and allowing 2 wild cards of the next best record would include some real good teams who previously were not in the playoffs (quite a few 100 win teams that didn't make the playoffs under the strict 2 division-no-wild-card setup). And I would base homefield advantage on record, not who won a division.

But to step even further back, why is going with one big division in each league so unweildly? I know it makes the standings look less interesting, but would anything other than perception stand in the way of it? Taking the top 4 teams in a division would eliminate all the chance of a team with a worse record being taken over one with a better record. To some extent the NBA already looks like one big division even though they are broken up into 3 per conference. I think it could work despite the balking at just the look of it in a newspaper or a website.