Harvard #1?

[UNH72Plus]

I know many of us have complained about the Massey rankings in the past, but this is a new low! Harvard is ranked #1 in 19 of their polls/ranking systems, and #1 overall. Their non-conference opponents have a combined record of 6-22. Comments?

[OL FU]

For what it is worth, Congratulations:)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yet Massey is a god when he has seven MFVC teams in the Top 25... xlolx

[FormerPokeCenter]

Yet Massey is a god when he has seven MFVC teams in the Top 25... xlolx

Exactly!

However, Massey may be onto something here. Sagarin has Harvard ranked higher than either South Dakota or Montana...

I say Harvard should have the top seed for the playoffs!

[Professor Chaos]

Massey's predictor did beat every single AGS poster who entered the AGS bracket challenge last year. He might be on to something...

[UNIFanSince1983]

Well this isn't just Massey (although they are #1 in Massey as well). This is the composite ranking with all of the computers. Depending on where Harvard ends up in the human polls though they might be 2nd in the composite later today.

Computers are not perfect. They do have flaws as well, however, I do trust them more than humans who are inherently biased. Let's face it all the other teams this year have some flaws and losses the computer can find. Harvard did a good job of insulating itself, and winning. That is a recipe for high rankings by computers especially when teams with stronger schedules go out and beat up on each other.

[Pard4Life]

No. This isn't even one of their better teams. They are good though... Top 15, 10 good.

[Franks Tanks]

Harvard is really good, and is easily top 10. They have more, or at least as much, next level talent as any team in FCS. One weakness is that they don't have extremely explosive skill players, but they are as good as any team in the county along the OL and DL. People that laugh at Harvard has either never seen them play, or don't know anything about football.

[Daytripper]

Maybe their perceived intelligence is taken into consideration?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'll be anxiously awaiting the outrage thread that springs up when people realize No. 24 in the Massey composite is 4-5 Western Illinois.

[Ivytalk]

I love all these Harvard polling threads. The only thing that matters to me is beating Penn on Saturday.xpeacex

[DFW HOYA]

Their non-conference opponents have a combined record of 6-22. Comments?

Georgetown accounts for four of those six wins. URI and Lafayette, one each.

[JayJ79]

"How good Harvard actually is" is like asking "how many licks to the center of a tootsie pop".
the world may never know.

[CasualFan]

Massey's predictor did beat every single AGS poster who entered the AGS bracket challenge last year.
Massey hasn't missed a Harvard playoff prediction.

[Nova09]

No. This isn't even one of their better teams. They are good though... Top 15, 10 good.

Irrelevant. This year is not one of the better years.

Saying a team should not have a higher rank than that same school's team had a previous year when the team from the previous year was better completely overlooks the fact that polls are based on teams from the same year relative to each other.

[Pard4Life]

Irrelevant. This year is not one of the better years.

Saying a team should not have a higher rank than that same school's team had a previous year when the team from the previous year was better completely overlooks the fact that polls are based on teams from the same year relative to each other.

Thanks professor polling 101.

[UNH72Plus]

Well all these ranking systems must be a lot more complicated than I give them credit for, because Dayton is 9-0 and is ranked #35.

They have beaten two in-conference teams with 7-2 records and their OOC opponents has a combined record of 16-12 (albeit with a few D-II teams in there).

[Mayville Bison]

Exactly!

However, Massey may be onto something here. Sagarin has Harvard ranked higher than either South Dakota or Montana...

I say Harvard should have the top seed for the playoffs!

Nah, JSU is the number 1 seed for sure. I'd put them at 2 despite their best win being at home against SHSU...wait I mean Dartmouth.

Ivy and Southland are similar in their scheduling philosophies - limit the amount of non-conf games in order to make your top teams look great. Difference is, Ivy wins their games

[Nova09]

Thanks professor polling 101.

Uhhh, then why did you compare this Harvard team to past Harvard teams if you know that's not how polls work?

[FormerPokeCenter]

Nah, JSU is the number 1 seed for sure. I'd put them at 2 despite their best win being at home against SHSU...wait I mean Dartmouth.

Ivy and Southland are similar in their scheduling philosophies - limit the amount of non-conf games in order to make your top teams look great. Difference is, Ivy wins their games

Amazing insight! I like that you really researched the schedules to see that McNeese kicked off the year with LSU right? And that Sam Houston played Texas Tech, and Central Arkansas played Oklahoma State.

Clearly, those games were designed to allow the top three SLC squads to feast on weaker opponents...

[dbackjon]

Harvard is really good, and is easily top 10. They have more, or at least as much, next level talent as any team in FCS. One weakness is that they don't have extremely explosive skill players, but they are as good as any team in the county along the OL and DL. People that laugh at Harvard has either never seen them play, or don't know anything about football.

I watched them against Dartmouth. Neither team would finish in the upper half of the Big Sky or MVFC.

but since Harvard refuses to play any real team, they shouldn't be ranked at all, since there is no comparison possible.

[dbackjon]

I love all these Harvard polling threads. The only thing that matters to me is beating Penn on Saturday.xpeacex

Friends don't let friends go to Penn!

But if there were no Friends at Penn, there would be no Penn.

Go Penn :)

[Ivytalk]

Friends don't let friends go to Penn!

But if there were no Friends at Penn, there would be no Penn.

Go Penn :)

You'd have a hard time finding a real Quaker at Penn these days.

And bite me.

[Franks Tanks]

I watched them against Dartmouth. Neither team would finish in the upper half of the Big Sky or MVFC.

but since Harvard refuses to play any real team, they shouldn't be ranked at all, since there is no comparison possible.

Dartmouth is also very good. Both teams would finish in the top half of any conference in the FCS this year.

[FormerPokeCenter]

So, who would Harvard and Dartmoth supplant from the top half of the MVFC???

NDSU, Northern Iowa, Illinois State, SDSU or Youngstown??

[Mayville Bison]

Amazing insight! I like that you really researched the schedules to see that McNeese kicked off the year with LSU right? And that Sam Houston played Texas Tech, and Central Arkansas played Oklahoma State.

Clearly, those games were designed to allow the top three SLC squads to feast on weaker opponents...

Wow, so with McNeese undefeated, that means they must have beat LSU right? Congrats!!!

Similar =/= exact. Ivy doesn't need to schedule an FBS team because they don't need the money. Outside of those FBS games (that don't help or hurt you unless you win), all we have to judge the Southland on are the following OOC games
W Mississippi College (D2)
L Samford
W Texas A&M Commerce (D2)
W Texas A&M Kingsville (D2)
W Bacone College (D2)
W Florida Tech (D2)
L Northern Arizona
W Bethany Kansas (D2)
L Northern Colorado
W Faith Arkansas (D2?)

So the entire conference's record against FCS schools outside of conference is 0-3.

[dbackjon]

Dartmouth is also very good. Both teams would finish in the top half of any conference in the FCS this year.


I guess we have different standards for what is good.

NAU would put 50+ on either.

[Franks Tanks]

I guess we have different standards for what is good.

NAU would put 50+ on either.

No they wouldn't. I watched Montana and they have a bunch of slow white guys. I can do this as well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So, who would Harvard and Dartmoth supplant from the top half of the MVFC???

NDSU, Northern Iowa, Illinois State, SDSU or Youngstown??

A solid 3rd and 4th, IMO.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Wow, so with McNeese undefeated, that means they must have beat LSU right? Congrats!!!

Similar =/= exact. Ivy doesn't need to schedule an FBS team because they don't need the money. Outside of those FBS games (that don't help or hurt you unless you win), all we have to judge the Southland on are the following OOC games
W Mississippi College (D2)
L Samford
W Texas A&M Commerce (D2)
W Texas A&M Kingsville (D2)
W Bacone College (D2)
W Florida Tech (D2)
L Northern Arizona
W Bethany Kansas (D2)
L Northern Colorado
W Faith Arkansas (D2?)

So the entire conference's record against FCS schools outside of conference is 0-3.

Nice use of the "Moving Goalpost" in your reasoning. The post to which that quote replied was about some sort of scheduling philosophy you believe the Southland engages in, "to make the top teams look good"....

I pointed out that the top teams all sheduled BCS squads. How is that protective scheduling?

Moreover, the SLC just recently expanded and now has NINE conference games. That leaves two games and the top SLC teams schedule BCS squads. With the remaing games, the conference tries to do the best it can, but there's no "scheduling philosophy" other than play everybody in conference (theoretically) and schedule the best you can after that.

If you think that the SLC intentionally schedules weak sisters, you haven't been paying attention.

Congrats to Northern Colorado for taking that scalp from Houston Baptist. That's impressive! Hell, we can't even get them on OUR schedule and they're in OUR conference ;)

NAU's win against SFA was, what, one score? But considering that SFA had TCU the following week, it's kinda counter productive for your argument to suggest that there's protective scheduling at work...

You do understand what a logical fallacy is, and that relying on them in an argument is the same as waving the white flag of surrender, right???

[FormerPokeCenter]

A solid 3rd and 4th, IMO.


I'd have to see some common opponents to see if that's even remotely plausible...

We'll probably be waiting a while ;)

[dbackjon]

No they wouldn't. I watched Montana and they have a bunch of slow white guys. I can do this as well.


LOL - we will never know, because Harvard refuses to play.

NAU would put 40+ up on Montana now that their freshman QB has better command of the system.

[Mayville Bison]

Nice use of the "Moving Goalpost" in your reasoning. The post to which that quote replied was about some sort of scheduling philosophy you believe the Southland engages in, "to make the top teams look good"....

I pointed out that the top teams all sheduled BCS squads. How is that protective scheduling?

Moreover, the SLC just recently expanded and now has NINE conference games. That leaves two games and the top SLC teams schedule BCS squads. With the remaing games, the conference tries to do the best it can, but there's no "scheduling philosophy" other than play everybody in conference (theoretically) and schedule the best you can after that.

If you think that the SLC intentionally schedules weak sisters, you haven't been paying attention.

Congrats to Northern Colorado for taking that scalp from Houston Baptist. That's impressive! Hell, we can't even get them on OUR schedule and they're in OUR conference ;)

NAU's win against SFA was, what, one score? But considering that SFA had TCU the following week, it's kinda counter productive for your argument to suggest that there's protective scheduling at work...

You do understand what a logical fallacy is, and that relying on them in an argument is the same as waving the white flag of surrender, right???

The original post of mine was giving Harvard a 2-seed because they played such a tough season similar to McNeese's schedule thus far.
I said both teams limit the number of non-conference games
I expanded that by saying at least the Ivy wins their OOC games
My last post was showing that the only games the Southland can win is if they schedule non-D1 games.

Show me where I moved the goalposts???

[FormerPokeCenter]

Your post said there was a Southland Strategy of scheduling cupcakes "to make the top SLC teams look good"...

The problem is that the top SLC teams all schedule BCS schools, in addition to scheduling other FCS schools when we can. The problem is that with 9 conference games, and BCS paydays, often the only teams we CAN schedule to get home dates for our fans are Division II or NAIA squads. But, this is a recent development, coincident with the SLC's expansion THIS year.

Look at SHSU last year. Famously, they played EWU and LSU. The year before that they played Texas A&M and Eastern Washington.

McNeese had LSU on the schedule this year. Last year, they took Nebraska to the wire. The year before that they set a record for most FCS points scored against a BCS team and highest margin of victory over a BCS team.

Again, UCA played Oklahoma State and a Samford team one year removed from the playoffs. The year before that, they played Texas Tech , Montana State and Missouri State.

SFA had TCU and Northern Arizona. The year before that they Kansas State and Weber State.

SELA had Ohio this year, and Florida Tech. Prior to that they had Southern Utah and Tulane. The year before that they had TCU and South Dakota State.

Again, how is that protective scheduling, as you indicated in the first post I replied to???

And, how is it that you don't undertand that getting off the protective scheduling issue, and moving on to another point is the very definition of goal post moving????

[Go Green]

If Harvard is #1, then Dartmouth *has* to be #2.

Our loss to Harvard was as close as a game gets. And it was at Harvard's home field, as well.

Amirite?

:)

[melloware13]

I can't see Harvard as #1, but there needs to be some respect to a 23 game winning streak. In terms of the schedule, in conference they play who they play, that show every conference is. OOC their problem is the Ivy League not playing until Week 3/4 and most of the big conferences are in conference play at that point.

[Mayville Bison]

Your post said there was a Southland Strategy of scheduling cupcakes "to make the top SLC teams look good"...

The problem is that the top SLC teams all schedule BCS schools, in addition to scheduling other FCS schools when we can. The problem is that with 9 conference games, and BCS paydays, often the only teams we CAN schedule to get home dates for our fans are Division II or NAIA squads. But, this is a recent development, coincident with the SLC's expansion THIS year.

Look at SHSU last year. Famously, they played EWU and LSU. The year before that they played Texas A&M and Eastern Washington.

McNeese had LSU on the schedule this year. Last year, they took Nebraska to the wire. The year before that they set a record for most FCS points scored against a BCS team and highest margin of victory over a BCS team.

Again, UCA played Oklahoma State and a Samford team one year removed from the playoffs. The year before that, they played Texas Tech , Montana State and Missouri State.

SFA had TCU and Northern Arizona. The year before that they Kansas State and Weber State.

SELA had Ohio this year, and Florida Tech. Prior to that they had Southern Utah and Tulane. The year before that they had TCU and South Dakota State.

Again, how is that protective scheduling, as you indicated in the first post I replied to???

And, how is it that you don't undertand that getting off the protective scheduling issue, and moving on to another point is the very definition of goal post moving????

Goal post moving is bringing up previous years when the other person never mentioned anything about previous years.


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[Mayville Bison]

If Harvard is #1, then Dartmouth *has* to be #2.

Our loss to Harvard was as close as a game gets. And it was at Harvard's home field, as well.

Amirite?

:)

No no no. JSU is 1.
Harvard is 2.
Dayton 3.
Dartmouth 4.
LSU's JV squad is 5.
All 5-4 teams are 6-31.
McNeese comes in at 84ish which is ironically about where their strength of schedule is.


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[skinny_uncle]

Until the Ivies get over being to stuck up to participate in the playoff system, we will never really know.

[Ivytalk]

:)
If Harvard is #1, then Dartmouth *has* to be #2.

Our loss to Harvard was as close as a game gets. And it was at Harvard's home field, as well.

Amirite?

:)
Yesurite!

[Ivytalk]

No no no. JSU is 1.
Harvard is 2.
Dayton 3.
Dartmouth 4.
LSU's JV squad is 5.
All 5-4 teams are 6-31.
McNeese comes in at 84ish which is ironically about where their strength of schedule is.


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It's an honor to be #2, behind my good friend Cocky!xdrunkyx

[FormerPokeCenter]

Goal post moving is bringing up previous years when the other person never mentioned anything about previous years.


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I see the problem here....

You don't understand the term "Logical Fallacy" nor how it applies here. And, that's apparently compounded by your inability to remember exactly what it was you think you meant you were trying to say...

Here's the first post, with the relevant sections in bold...


Nah, JSU is the number 1 seed for sure. I'd put them at 2 despite their best win being at home against SHSU...wait I mean Dartmouth.

Ivy and Southland are similar in their scheduling philosophies - limit the amount of non-conf games in order to make your top teams look great. Difference is, Ivy wins their games

To which I replied and pointed out that the top teams in the Southland all schedule BCS schools year after year. In fact, in most years, they schedule BCS schools and decent schools from other FCS conferences. THIS year, because of expansion and a league mandated 9 game conference schedule, the SLC had to change things a little, yet the top teams STILL scheduled BCS schools.

To most rational people, that would seem to render the argument proffered above to be moot. However, rather than concede error, you went on then to get into the OOC schedule of Houston Baptist, a start-up team who's played less than 25 varsity games in its history as some sort of indication of the SLC's weakness.

To recap, your original post was about the SLC's top teams and your belief that they scheduled protectively.

Referring you to the fact that the top five teams in the SLC historically schedule BCS schools each year, as well as schools from other FCS conferences isn't moving the goal post. It's RESPONDING to the specific stupidity you displayed in a previous post.

Moving the goal post is retreating from your original post suggesting that the SLC somehow schedules protectively to prop up its top teams (in direct conflict with the actual evidence) and then pointing to losses by startups Houston Baptist and Incarnate Word as some sort of evidence to support your post.

You're welcome...for the history lesson, the factual correction and the explanation about the Logical Fallacy of the moving goal post.

Is there anything else you need remedial educational help with???

[Professor Chaos]

I don't think SLC teams intentionally schedule protectively but I think the 9 game conference schedule coupled with the need to maximize revenue, like most FCS teams need to do, leads to the same end result. Let's not pretend that SLC teams schedule FBS games to challenge themselves, they do it for the money. Just like they schedule D2s because it's cheaper to pay a D2 team to come to town for a guarantee game than it is an FCS team.

The 9 game conference schedule in the FCS will never work unless you have a 12 game season or unless you want to isolate your league from the rest of the subdivision. I really hope the SLC changes that in the future. If not we'll see more years where the SLC plays only 4 FCS teams out of conference as a league like they are this year.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Everybody's a critic. The SLC plays more than half of its OOC schedule against the BCS, yet still people bitch ;)

[FormerPokeCenter]

Just for the record, I don't like the 9 game conference schedule at all. It does sorta make us like the SWAC.

The D2 thing is less about revenue than it is about having a home game. Most OOC FCS squads want a home and home, which we'd LOVE to do...but for the 9 game mandate.

The BCS games are always away games...with a 9 game conference schedule, you're going to have five away games every other year. If you do a home and home with an FCS squad, there will be some years where you'd have, at best FOUR home games.

That'll kill your program's fan base...

[Mayville Bison]

I see the problem here....

You don't understand the term "Logical Fallacy" nor how it applies here. And, that's apparently compounded by your inability to remember exactly what it was you think you meant you were trying to say...

Here's the first post, with the relevant sections in bold...



To which I replied and pointed out that the top teams in the Southland all schedule BCS schools year after year. In fact, in most years, they schedule BCS schools and decent schools from other FCS conferences. THIS year, because of expansion and a league mandated 9 game conference schedule, the SLC had to change things a little, yet the top teams STILL scheduled BCS schools.

To most rational people, that would seem to render the argument proffered above to be moot. However, rather than concede error, you went on then to get into the OOC schedule of Houston Baptist, a start-up team who's played less than 25 varsity games in its history as some sort of indication of the SLC's weakness.

To recap, your original post was about the SLC's top teams and your belief that they scheduled protectively.

Referring you to the fact that the top five teams in the SLC historically schedule BCS schools each year, as well as schools from other FCS conferences isn't moving the goal post. It's RESPONDING to the specific stupidity you displayed in a previous post.

Moving the goal post is retreating from your original post suggesting that the SLC somehow schedules protectively to prop up its top teams (in direct conflict with the actual evidence) and then pointing to losses by startups Houston Baptist and Incarnate Word as some sort of evidence to support your post.

You're welcome...for the history lesson, the factual correction and the explanation about the Logical Fallacy of the moving goal post.

Is there anything else you need remedial educational help with???

I'm going to be honest, I haven't read most of your posts after you said I moved the goal posts.

You're writing novels about something I not only acknowledged in my original post but apologizing for the facts I brought up in follow-up posts.


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[Professor Chaos]

Everybody's a critic. The SLC plays more than half of its OOC schedule against the BCS, yet still people bitch ;)
The problem is the SLC isn't in the BCS and is not being compared to teams in the BCS. What does SHSU losing by 14 to Texas Tech tell me about the Bearkats? Not nearly as much as seeing them go to EWU for the kickoff classic game like they did in 2014. I'm not saying they shouldn't schedule FBS games, I'm just saying the 9 game conference schedule makes it really hard to compare SLC teams with their peers in the FCS given how most FCS teams need to schedule out of conference to stay afloat.

[FormerPokeCenter]

I'm going to be honest, I haven't read most of your posts after you said I moved the goal posts.

You're writing novels about something I not only acknowledged in my original post but apologizing for the facts I brought up in follow-up posts.


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You haven't read them, yet you're responding to them....

Makes perfect sense. I was wondering how one poster could be THAT totally clueless. Now I know! ;)

[Mayville Bison]

You haven't read them, yet you're responding to them....

Makes perfect sense. I was wondering how one poster could be THAT totally clueless. Now I know! ;)

You really read what you want huh? Most =\= all

I read for the part that's relevant to what I posted, not some history lesson.


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[FormerPokeCenter]

The problem is the SLC isn't in the BCS and is not being compared to teams in the BCS. What does SHSU losing by 14 to Texas Tech tell me about the Bearkats? Not nearly as much as seeing them go to EWU for the kickoff classic game like they did in 2014. I'm not saying they shouldn't schedule FBS games, I'm just saying the 9 game conference schedule makes it really hard to compare SLC teams with their peers in the FCS given how most FCS teams need to schedule out of conference to stay afloat.

I don't know too many people in the SLC who actually like the 9 game mandate. Most would be totally okay with the conference splitting into two divisions. As it is now, we've never played Houston Baptist, while Sam Houston and SLU both played them each of the last two years as a conference game and this year, neither Sam nor SLU play each other, yet we play both of them, and ACU.

The conference schedule for each team isn't identical, so that's a problem, and while we're catching grief for our schedule, it should be noted that SLU and SHSU get the benefit of NOT playing each other and getting a freebie in the form of Houston Baptist...

I think we could go to divisions like some of the other conferences do and have more equitalbe scheduling...

- - - Updated - - -


You really read what you want huh? Most =\= all

I read for the part that's relevant to what I posted, not some history lesson.


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In my defense, you really make it hard to separate your wheat from your chaff...

[Professor Chaos]

I don't know too many people in the SLC who actually like the 9 game mandate. Most would be totally okay with the conference splitting into two divisions. As it is now, we've never played Houston Baptist, while Sam Houston and SLU both played them each of the last two years as a conference game and this year, neither Sam nor SLU play each other, yet we play both of them, and ACU.

The conference schedule for each team isn't identical, so that's a problem, and while we're catching grief for our schedule, it should be noted that SLU and SHSU get the benefit of NOT playing each other and getting a freebie in the form of Houston Baptist...

I think we could go to divisions like some of the other conferences do and have more equitalbe scheduling...

Hopefully it changes sooner rather than later then since if the majority of the conference members aren't behind it the conference shouldn't be either.