KC Keeler has enough of the D2 football programs

[bonarae]

I was making the rounds on CS.com when I saw this... this hasn't been even posted here yet...


A quote on the Texas A&M Commerce game from KC Keeler from yesterday's Lake Charles American Press:

"We haven't had to play into the second half the last four weeks, so it was nice to see us challenged and how our kids would respond. But we will not play people like that again. It just does not make sense."

Hmm, his programs in recent years (SHSU) have played top D2's tough, but the scores in those games seem more surprising to the rest of us. What about other coaches whose teams also play different D2's regularly? Is the performance of the games a sole factor enough to explain the parity between FCS and some D2's? xchinscratchx

[melloware13]

While at he was at Delaware, we played West Chester 11 times. UD was 11-0 outscoring the Golden Rams 400-123 (36.4-11.2 average). However, in 2011, a Hen team that finished 7-4 and a UMass or URI loss away from the postseason only beat WCUPA 28-17. That WCUPA team finished 5-6 with losses by more than 11 to Bloomsburg, Kutztown, and IUP, so it's not like they were the DII champions that year.

[Catsfan90]

CSU Pueblo.

[Catatonic]

While at he was at Delaware, we played West Chester 11 times. UD was 11-0 outscoring the Golden Rams 400-123 (36.4-11.2 average). However, in 2011, a Hen team that finished 7-4 and a UMass or URI loss away from the postseason only beat WCUPA 28-17. That WCUPA team finished 5-6 with losses by more than 11 to Bloomsburg, Kutztown, and IUP, so it's not like they were the DII champions that year.

Two points.

1. Keeler's record vs D2 teams at Sam is 1-1. The win over TAMUC was a much closer game than many of SHSU's wins vs FCS foes. The loss vs CSU P was an embarrassing. His comments look more like he's ducking games he might lose against D2 teams than toughen the schedule by dropping weak foes.

2. His argument about dropping d2 opponents is the same argument the Big 10 and other FBS schools use to justify no longer scheduling FCS opponents. It is hypocritical of FCS coaches to argue FCS schools should no longer play D2 schools while arguing in favor of FCS-FBS match ups.

[crossfire07]

In these times it is tougher to schedule FCS home and games because of the travel. They schedule the D2 teams to have that extra home game. You either play them or go on the road. He just might have to play them no matter what he thinks because he isn't the boss when it comes to the money part of things.

[RootinFerDukes]

Two points.

1. Keeler's record vs D2 teams at Sam is 1-1. The win over TAMUC was a much closer game than many of SHSU's wins vs FCS foes. The loss vs CSU P was an embarrassing. His comments look more like he's ducking games he might lose against D2 teams than toughen the schedule by dropping weak foes.

2. His argument about dropping d2 opponents is the same argument the Big 10 and other FBS schools use to justify no longer scheduling FCS opponents. It is hypocritical of FCS coaches to argue FCS schools should no longer play D2 schools while arguing in favor of FCS-FBS match ups.

It has been widely known that the Fcs selection committee do not "count" D2 wins as a win for purposes of playoff at-large selection.
The Fcs fbs games still count as a win for bowl eligibility for an fbs team up to a maximum of one Fcs win. A second or more Fcs win doesn't count.
It is not comparable to D2 games because a win never favors you while a win over a "D1" pioneer or other non scholly Fcs team does count. Those teams are just glorified D3 teams with a D1 label.
Fbs does get credit for one Fcs win, while Fcs does not get credit for one D2 win.
This is why I'm glad JMU has not scheduled D2 since 2006 I think. There's no point if you want to contend for the Fcs playoffs.

[taper]

People might not want to hear this, but there are a few D2 teams that could make the FCS playoffs if they played a full schedule.

[taper]

It has been widely known that the Fcs selection committee do not "count" D2 wins as a win for purposes of playoff at-large selection.
The Fcs fbs games still count as a win for bowl eligibility for an fbs team up to a maximum of one Fcs win. A second or more Fcs win doesn't count.
It is not comparable to D2 games because a win never favors you while a win over a "D1" pioneer or other non scholly Fcs team does count. Those teams are just glorified D3 teams with a D1 label.
Fbs does get credit for one Fcs win, while Fcs does not get credit for one D2 win.
This is why I'm glad JMU has not scheduled D2 since 2006 I think. There's no point if you want to contend for the Fcs playoffs.

Not true. For an FCS win to count:

The NCAA allows one victory per season over a FCS team to count toward an FBS team's bowl eligibility, so long as the FCS team has supplied financial aid for football averaging out to at at least at 90 percent of the 63 scholarships allowed over "a rolling two-year period" that can include the current season.

[RootinFerDukes]

So if an fbs were to schedule, say Davidson, it wouldn't count towards their bowl eligibility? I think San Diego state scheduled San Diego, so I guess that doesn't count for their bowl eligibility.
You highlighted lower scholarship Fcs teams counting to show a rule applying to fbs teams.

[BisonFan02]

In 2013, NDSU played two FCS OOC home games against DII Ferris State and MEAC Delaware St. Ferris State would've handled Delaware State.

[taper]

Small update to my NCAA rule quote, I had an old manual.



Each year, a FBS institution may count one victory against a Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) opponent that has averaged 90 percent of the permissible maximum number of grants-in-aid per year in football during a rolling two-year period.However, The Football Issues Committee may approve a waiver of the 90 percent requirement to permit a FBS institution to count a victory against a FCS opponent toward meeting the definition of a “deserving team,” if a unique or catastrophic situation affects the FCS institution’s ability to average 90 percent of the permissible maximum number of football grants-in-aid per year during a rolling two-year period

I suppose this "deserving team" addition would allow a Patriot or Ivy game to count as scholarships are a little fuzzy over there. I don't know if anyone's actually asked for such a waiver. No way would Pioneer count. If SDSU did schedule

Dukes, I think I mis-read your post. I see now that line was meant for FCS, but I think the general idea of both our posts is still right. I think SDSU plays USD because it's a cheap cupcake local game.

[Nickels]

People might not want to hear this, but there are a few D2 teams that could make the FCS playoffs if they played a full schedule.
Sans LSU, Pueblo was the best team we played last year. Honestly they're right there with the Bison.

TAMC is the best non-FBS team we've face so far this year.

I have no doubt both of those teams could win multiple FCS playoff games.

[BisonFan02]

Sans LSU, Pueblo was the best team we played last year. Honestly they're right there with the Bison.

TAMC is the best non-FBS team we've face so far this year.

xlolx Get real. Someone is just sour :D

[Nickels]

xlolx Get real. Someone is just sour :D
It's no insult to NDSU. Pueblo was really good.

Compare both games against us. They controlled us from beginning to end. The Bison needed a half to take over.

[Nickels]

Most of you don't want to hear this but D2 teams are closer to FCS teams than FCS teams are to FBS teams.

[BisonFan02]

It's no insult to NDSU. Pueblo was really good.

Compare both games against us. They controlled us from beginning to end. The Bison needed a half to take over.

LOL....you guys scored a whopping 3 points. Also LOL at doing a comparative score comparison on who kicked SHSU's ass more...NDSU or DII Pueblo. Maybe you should add Pueblo and Commerce to the Southland.

[BisonFan02]

Most of you don't want to hear this but D2 teams are closer to FCS teams then FCS teams are to FBS teams.

Yup, in a lot of cases D2 teams are better than FCS teams. We can start with the Pioneer, MEAC, SWAC, and even a good chunk of your Southland teams....and I can take the top programs of the FCS and run train on a good chunk of the G5 too. What's your point?

[taper]

While CSUP was pretty good, you can't use SHSU's relative performance against them and NDSU to compare anything. CSUP was an early game in a year when SHSU took in a ton of transfers. I don't think they'd figured out how to play as a team yet. Later on in the season you became very good.

[Nickels]

Yup, in a lot of cases D2 teams are better than FCS teams. We can start with the Pioneer, MEAC, SWAC, and even a good chunk of your Southland teams....and I can take the top programs of the FCS and run train on a good chunk of the G5 too. What's your point?
You're in denial if you dont add half of the MVFC and most of the BSC too.

[Nickels]

LOL....you guys scored a whopping 3 points.

We would have scored a whopping 0 if Pueblo hadn't shown mercy toward the end. They would also have scored 60-70.

Yes we did improve but Pueblo absolutely dominated our game. The Bison just wore us down in the 2nd half.

[hebmskebm]

There are D2 teams that could compete in FCS. But you could count them all on one hand, mayyyyyybe two. It's a very top heavy division. The bottom half of D2 is godawful.

[RootinFerDukes]

Most of you don't want to hear this but D2 teams are closer to FCS teams than FCS teams are to FBS teams.

What type of fbs teams are we talking about here? P5? Sure no one is near them, even the G5 schools. 80% of the G5 is roughly equivalent with at least the Mvfc, CAA and big sky. Their inability to acknowledge that doesn't change the fact. Performance against P5 is barely better than top Fcs, there's easily 20-30 fbs with worse attendance than top 5-10 Fcs teams, etc.
I'm sure a top 25 D2 team could beat any Fcs team not in the top 40. A top 10 could even hang with a top 25.
Any given top 25 Fcs team should never lose to a D2 team, ranked, defending champs, whatever.
Would you say a top 25 fbs team any given week should be losing to ndsu? Yeah. It's the equivalent of that.

[Nickels]

What type of fbs teams are we talking about here? P5? Sure no one is near them, even the G5 schools. 80% of the G5 is roughly equivalent with at least the Mvfc, CAA and big sky. Their inability to acknowledge that doesn't change the fact. Performance against P5 is barely better than top Fcs, there's easily 20-30 fbs with worse attendance than top 5-10 Fcs teams, etc.
I'm sure a top 25 D2 team could beat any Fcs team not in the top 40. A top 10 could even hang with a top 25.
Any given top 25 Fcs team should never lose to a D2 team, ranked, defending champs, whatever.
Would you say a top 25 fbs team any given week should be losing to ndsu? Yeah. It's the equivalent of that.

I stopped reading after attendance was mentioned...

[centennial]

We would have scored a whopping 0 if Pueblo hadn't shown mercy toward the end. They would also have scored 60-70.

Yes we did improve but Pueblo absolutely dominated our game. The Bison just wore us down in the 2nd half.
CSU Pueblo would do well against a middle of the road MVFC, CAA team. They just couldn't do it week to week. They are a good team. However, a team of transfers at the start of the year vs once they have gelled is different. To suggest that a team that was probably top 40 (for 2014) in all of college football would lose to a D2 doesn't make any sense.

[pokefan02]

There was only one way to find out which team was better, so we will never know.