"What is to be done???" Not Lenin, the PL version

[Sader87]

Something seems to be clearly amiss with Patriot League football. The supposed panacea of scholarships (save GTown) is now in Year 3 with mostly little effect league-wide so fahh. The league seems to be falling (in some cases, drastically) behind the Ancient VIII, losses continue against supposed lesser league teams, crowds on game-days are mostly sparse, older generations of fans of once proud football programs are either dying off or have left in disinterest with very few to replace them. The list could go on but I shant bore you more on this post.

Is the only answer time? I dunno...it seems like more is at work here than "growing pains" to me.

Thoughts? Solutions?

[bonarae]

See also the NEC. Some teams there (particularly Wagner) are struggling.

[ngineer]

Until the full scholarships are instituted and all, except G'town, have some experience with the new alignment, it is premature. I see better talent, but I also see smaller squads and with a lot of injuries, teams are being forced to rely on inexperienced freshmen and sophs, who in the PL do not red shirt. That extra year can make a big difference in both physical and mental maturity. This is a process and until we have completed the process we will not know whether this was a mistake or not.

[RichH2]

Sader,this a case of premature speculation :).
Transition us not smooth nor should any have expected to be. We cant expect consistency when the team's best players are mostly fr and so. For us injuries have forced a large number of our fr onto the field. Give it two more years,then see where we are.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Until the full scholarships are instituted and all, except G'town, have some experience with the new alignment, it is premature. I see better talent, but I also see smaller squads and with a lot of injuries, teams are being forced to rely on inexperienced freshmen and sophs, who in the PL do not red shirt. That extra year can make a big difference in both physical and mental maturity. This is a process and until we have completed the process we will not know whether this was a mistake or not.

What's interesting is Fordham's success. While they've been good they really haven't been able to elevate the PL's perception. They've had 3 very good teams the last few years but they're still a half to a full step behind the top crust of FCS. There's been as good to better non-scholarship PL teams during the playoff era. Can the Rams take it to another level with Moorhead or have they about topped out? If not Fordham can or will someone push the envelope further?

IMO, the league really is bad. I'm not convinced there's two teams in the top 50% of FCS this year. There's simply no excuse for that.

When Lehigh has good teams the dominate the Ivies. Look at their record against the IL from 1998 through 2005 and then 2010 through 2013. I feel Colgate generally has been the same way. The IL is good but they're not THAT good. There's no reason to get dominated like this against fringe Top 20/25 teams.

I'm with those who believe the coaching overall is subpar which is the why the league is struggling. Lafayette is going to notch their 6th straight losing season. Holy Cross is potentially looking at their 4th and Colgate their 4th in 5 seasons. Lehigh had their worst record in 2014 in 22 years.

IMO Colgate's recent struggles have flown under the radar. As I mentioned, I don't believe many people would have guessed they've had 3 losing seasons in the last 4 years. The slide started during Biddle's final couple years but was "masked" by a ok but not great team in 2012. They must get things together for their sake and the sake of the league.

I think Gilmore is going to get let go after this year so perhaps the culture will change in Worcester.

[ngineer]

What's interesting is Fordham's success. While they've been good they really haven't been able to elevate the PL's perception. They've had 3 very good teams the last few years but they're still a half to a full step behind the top crust of FCS. There's been as good to better non-scholarship PL teams during the playoff era. Can the Rams take it to another level with Moorhead or have they about topped out? If not Fordham can or will someone push the envelope further?

IMO, the league really is bad. I'm not convinced there's two teams in the top 50% of FCS this year. There's simply no excuse for that.

When Lehigh has good teams the dominate the Ivies. Look at their record against the IL from 1998 through 2005 and then 2010 through 2013. I feel Colgate generally has been the same way. The IL is good but they're not THAT good. There's no reason to get dominated like this against fringe Top 20/25 teams.

I'm with those who believe the coaching overall is subpar which is the why the league is struggling. Lafayette is going to notch their 6th straight losing season. Holy Cross is potentially looking at their 4th and Colgate their 4th in 5 seasons. Lehigh had their worst record in 2014 in 22 years.

IMO Colgate's recent struggles have flow under the radar. The slide started during Biddle's final couple years but was "masked" by a ok but not great team in 2012. They must get things together for their sake and the sake of the league.

I think Gilmore is going to get let go after this year so perhaps the culture will change in Worcester.

I thought Gilmore was just given an several year contract extension per some thread this past winter? Fordham has basically taken Lehigh's place the past few years as the PL leader. They were close to Villanova, when the Wildcats were good, they beat Army at West Point, and have kept winning. Some style points may be lacking but winning is winning. Lehigh had four years winning 39 games. That is impressive in any competition. In college football, there are going to be swings and cycles as the rosters change roughly 25% each year. Going back in Lehigh's archives, we had several short cycles of losing/mediocre seasons over the past 35 years.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I thought Gilmore was just given an several year contract extension per some thread this past winter? Fordham has basically taken Lehigh's place the past few years as the PL leader. They were close to Villanova, when the Wildcats were good, they beat Army at West Point, and have kept winning. Some style points may be lacking but winning is winning. Lehigh had four years winning 39 games. That is impressive in any competition. In college football, there are going to be swings and cycles as the rosters change roughly 25% each year. Going back in Lehigh's archives, we had several short cycles of losing/mediocre seasons over the past 35 years.

I'm pretty sure Milan Brown was bought out with time/money on his contract. They were able to bring in Carmody which was a pretty good hire. The "new" AD seems like he wants to make HC athletics successful. Time will but I think HC finishes under .500 which will cause the dominos to fall.

Lehigh has had some bad seasons here and there but no real continuous run of true "suckage". Even that run of 07, 08 and 09 was filled with numerous close losses. (Holy Cross can relate) Last years team was worse than any of those three imo. Their highs have been right there nationally which offsets the lows. My main contention right now is the struggles in a bad league. If you finish under .500 in this league you're legitimately in the bottom 20% of FCS.

I will say that basically every private school in FCS goes in cycles. As good as Villanova has been under Talley they've had some legitimately bad teams occasionally. Their 2011 team was 2-9 iirc. They were REALLY bad. Richmond and Furman have had some real bad teams here and there too. There is not a private school, outside of Harvard, that does it year after year after year after year without a down cycle.....

[Laker]

Something seems to be clearly amiss with Patriot League football. The supposed panacea of scholarships (save GTown) is now in Year 3 with mostly little effect league-wide so fahh. The league seems to be falling (in some cases, drastically) behind the Ancient VIII, losses continue against supposed lesser league teams, crowds on game-days are mostly sparse, older generations of fans of once proud football programs are either dying off or have left in disinterest with very few to replace them. The list could go on but I shant bore you more on this post.

Is the only answer time? I dunno...it seems like more is at work here than "growing pains" to me.

Thoughts? Solutions?

Chto delat'?

[DFW HOYA]

What the PL-6 is learning is that talent levels didn't significantly increase with scholarships, only the redistribution of aid.

As long as the Ivy Index rations PL admissions to those in an arbitrary SAT range, the PL will still lose imapct players to other conferences and gets basically the same athletes as before, just with a better aid package...unless the six schools decide to follow Fordham's lead and mine the transfer pool for key talent.

[RichH2]

Not really accurate DFW. Of LU's 30 frosh,including 4WOs,18 had offers from FBS or FCS schools. Not likely we would have gotten them without merit aid. The soph class has about the same ratio. Our first class probably fits your theory as we would have gotten most,but not all,of them either way.

[Sader87]

Chto delat'?


http://calvertjournal.com/comment/show/1578/what-is-to-be-done-chto-delat-art-collective

Not sure an art collective is the answer, but thanks laker.

While I do concede that it may be a bit premature to raise the "full alarm"... it just seems that, once again, the PL seems to be a "day late and a dollar short"...the Ivies, particularly the top half of the Ancient VIII, seem to have surpassed just in the last 3 years. Outside of Fordham, most PL teams seem to have at best, tread water, while others seem to have regressed.

[2ram]

i think the IL resurgence has something to do with it. it's not like the IL have 1 good team, they have several. there's something afoot in the northeastern football landscape.

[RichH2]

Agree 2ram. Focusing solely on our progress in schollie era ignores the reality of the football landscape in the NE. It is not a static still life . The IL has amped up its recruiting substantially over the last 4-5 yrs. They are cognizant of the impact of their maior OOC opponent going schollie. In reality they have virtually no options other than us for most of their schedule. Ludicrous to expect that they would stand pat and start losing on a regular basis to us.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The best teams in the East, discounting Virginia? Fordham, Harvard, perhaps Stony Brook. Next tier? Probably Dartmouth and Princeton.

[DFW HOYA]

Not really accurate DFW. Of LU's 30 frosh,including 4WOs,18 had offers from FBS or FCS schools. Not likely we would have gotten them without merit aid. The soph class has about the same ratio. Our first class probably fits your theory as we would have gotten most,but not all,of them either way.

But these are the same kids that were in the pool before merit aid, specifically because the academic index creates an artificial firewall around the ability to recruit. Plenty of kids prior to 2011 had offers from I-A and I-AA schools too, and that's fine, but it's the same pool either way.

Merit aid is closing deals for the Scholarship Six but it is not building a larger base of recruits.

And what about that nonscholarship team? Will that be changing soon? No.

http://georgetownvoice.com/2015/10/02/on-the-record-with-john-degioia-on-the-pope-divestment-and-the-future-of-georgetown-athletics/

[Laker]

http://calvertjournal.com/comment/show/1578/what-is-to-be-done-chto-delat-art-collective

Not sure an art collective is the answer, but thanks laker.

While I do concede that it may be a bit premature to raise the "full alarm"... it just seems that, once again, the PL seems to be a "day late and a dollar short"...the Ivies, particularly the top half of the Ancient VIII, seem to have surpassed just in the last 3 years. Outside of Fordham, most PL teams seem to have at best, tread water, while others seem to have regressed.

My brother was a Lt. Colonel who went to Defense Language School for Russian. When I saw your post I thought that the Lenin reference was cool so I asked him how to spell "What is to be done?" in Russian. That is what he spelled out.

Da!

[RichH2]

But these are the same kids that were in the pool before merit aid, specifically because the academic index creates an artificial firewall around the ability to recruit. Plenty of kids prior to 2011 had offers from I-A and I-AA schools too, and that's fine, but it's the same pool either way.

Merit aid is closing deals for the Scholarship Six but it is not building a larger base of recruits.

And what about that nonscholarship team? Will that be changing soon? No.

http://georgetownvoice.com/2015/10/02/on-the-record-with-john-degioia-on-the-pope-divestment-and-the-future-of-georgetown-athletics/
Certainly true. Other than geographic,there is little that can expand the recruiting pool under the current AI system. My point is merely that we get more of the kids in that pool with standing offers from Ivies,FCS and low to mid FBS schools.

[FordhamFan]

I know it's not as simple as this but seriously, it's at least 80% coaching. The entire PL has wet blanket coaches (sans Fordham). They suck, plain and simple. They aren't exciting to play for, they aren't particularly good at their jobs and they certainly don't seem to fully want to make all the moves necessary to win. Fordham is not this football-centric administration. It was Moorhead and staff that pushed the envelope. They fought to get transfers in, it wasn't easy for some of them. They developed players, they're just what a football staff needs to be. It's not a magic formula.

Don't get me wrong, it's not easy to find these grade A coaches. But to stick with some of the guys that have been leading PL programs into the scholarship era is downright ridiculous. If, as a league, you are going to embrace scholarships, you damn well better have the right guy leading the charge. And none of the true PL members do.

I'll admit I don't completely understand any academic things holding back non-Fordham schools, so if that's the major reason you can disregard this post. But go find a coach that wants to take these solid programs in the PL to the top again. I absolutely believe Lehigh could get a damn good coach tomorrow if they truly wanted to. I don't think it would be TOO much harder for the others.

Coaching is by far the most important thing in college football. And the Patriot League gets a fat F in it.

[LUHawker]

I know it's not as simple as this but seriously, it's at least 80% coaching. The entire PL has wet blanket coaches (sans Fordham). They suck, plain and simple. They aren't exciting to play for, they aren't particularly good at their jobs and they certainly don't seem to fully want to make all the moves necessary to win. Fordham is not this football-centric administration. It was Moorhead and staff that pushed the envelope. They fought to get transfers in, it wasn't easy for some of them. They developed players, they're just what a football staff needs to be. It's not a magic formula.

Don't get me wrong, it's not easy to find these grade A coaches. But to stick with some of the guys that have been leading PL programs into the scholarship era is downright ridiculous. If, as a league, you are going to embrace scholarships, you damn well better have the right guy leading the charge. And none of the true PL members do.

I'll admit I don't completely understand any academic things holding back non-Fordham schools, so if that's the major reason you can disregard this post. But go find a coach that wants to take these solid programs in the PL to the top again. I absolutely believe Lehigh could get a damn good coach tomorrow if they truly wanted to. I don't think it would be TOO much harder for the others.

Coaching is by far the most important thing in college football. And the Patriot League gets a fat F in it.


And I thought I was harsh calling for Lehigh's Andy Coen to go! xshakefistx

In general I agree. I will say that I think where the rest of the PL has suffered, sans Fordham, is not having coaches who have the experience in recruiting under the new environment - Moorhead already had that. Tavani, Gilmore, Coen, Hunt/Biddle have no experience in this area, so it is brand new. As such, I think the first team that goes and gets a new coach will see the rewards. I don't expect that team to be Lafayette. Doubtful for the rest, so maybe a matter of attrition. Lehigh had a very nice run a few years ago (#5 year-end ranking) so it can be done.

[RichH2]

Agree that good coaching is imperative. Great players will not become a good team with bad staff,as Fordham proved. Moorhead a fantastic coach who came into a scholarship program with the requisite experience.
Hawker agree the incumbent coaches had to learn on the job. Clear that Coen did get better classes each subsequent year.
Whether these incumbents are good HCs is a separate issue. Wont speak to other schools but I am unwilling to throw Coen under the bus after 1losing year during this transition period. Realize I am a lonely drummer on this issue:) but it is way to soon to judge the progress of the new coahes and schollies.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Agree 2ram. Focusing solely on our progress in schollie era ignores the reality of the football landscape in the NE. It is not a static still life . The IL has amped up its recruiting substantially over the last 4-5 yrs. They are cognizant of the impact of their maior OOC opponent going schollie. In reality they have virtually no options other than us for most of their schedule. Ludicrous to expect that they would stand pat and start losing on a regular basis to us.

I'm not buying the IL is any better today than it was 10+ years ago when Penn and Harvard were kicking butt and Brown had some good teams. Even Princeton and Yale posed serious headaches. Looking at some scores from 2000-2005 the Top IL teams were battling and beating ranked Patriot League teams, some times highly ranked PL teams. Now their beating up on a bunch of middling PL teams.

Harvard had Fitzpatrick, Matt Birk, Clifton Dawson and numerous other big time FCS players. Penn was loaded with guys. Brown had a helluva WR Chad Gessner and Nick Hartigan at RB who was a beast.

[RichH2]

I'm not buying the IL is any better today than it was 10+ years ago when Penn and Harvard were kicking butt and Brown had some good teams. Even Princeton and Yale posed serious headaches. Looking at some scores from 2000-2005 the Top IL teams were battling and beating ranked Patriot League teams, some times highly ranked PL teams. Now their beating up on a bunch of middling PL teams.

Harvard had Fitzpatrick, Matt Birk, Clifton Dawson and numerous other big time FCS players. Penn was loaded with guys. Brown had a helluva WR Chad Gessner and Nick Hartigan at RB who was a beast.
Missing the point owl. It was a different playing field back then. Comparisons to now are shaky at best. Two events. Feds pressure Ivies to spend endowment on students. PL goes scholly presenting IL with an OOC dilemma. Unlike us ,who changed our recruiting parameters, Ivies just amped up their same program by substantially increasing their athletic aid.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Missing the point owl. It was a different playing field back then. Comparisons to now are shaky at best. Two events. Feds pressure Ivies to spend endowment on students. PL goes scholly presenting IL with an OOC dilemma. Unlike us ,who changed our recruiting parameters, Ivies just amped up their same program by substantially increasing their athletic aid.

Then it sounds like both leagues are not getting a great return on their investments. IL is about the same if not slightly worse than it was back then despite spending more money. The PL is clearly worse overall with the addition of scholarships....

I'm not really interested in the behind the scene semantics. What really matters is the product on the field. That is ultimately what reflects commitment and determines success/failure....

[RichH2]

Agreed but production has to await the process and how well we. do with 4 full classes. I dont include our first class as by the time we approved them half way into recruiting that year.

[Pard4Life]

Best coach in the league just might be Gtown's coach. Moorhead has the tools but Gtown does more with less.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Agreed but production has to await the process and how well we. do with 4 full classes. I dont include our first class as by the time we approved them half way into recruiting that year.

I don't understand why this should be a process. The coaches should be recruiting quality players and developing them regardless if they're scholarship or merit based. If nothing else the merit guys, while not as highly rated, seemed to be better players. Lehigh's skill guys 3-4 years ago were better. TP is good but the other guys are nowhere close to Kurfis or Drawl. The staff was able to take an unknown OL and turn him into a second day draft pick. Guys like Chagani and Groome were physically stonger and more talented than anyone I see on defense now.

My belief is that Moorhead is simply clowning these guys. That's my story and sticking to it. He's driven to make his alma mater a player in FCS. His time as a player was not very pleasant and I'm sure that has stuck with him. He's willing to push the envelope a little further right now while the rest of the coaches are racking up losing seasons year after year.

I like the driven guys who want to keep pushing forward like Clawson, Lembo Higgins and Moorhead. I think Georgetown's coach has that extra edge too given the some of the uphill battles his faces. Coen, Tavani and Gilmore, while feisty, don't seem to run their programs with any sense of urgency.

I've said numerous times that scholarships guarantee nothing. There's bad scholarship teams and there's good ones. Perhaps the PL will be a league filled with the bad ones....

[Gater]

I'm a big fan of what Fordham has done for the PL by pushing for scholarships--even if it hasn't worked out at this point for the rest of the league. I also think Moorhead is a very good coach, but he has had a real advantage over the rest of the league since he has been here. If Fordham would have been eligible, they would have won the autobid one of his three years (3-3, 5-1, 6-0). Obviously, they have been the best team the past 2.5 years but he has yet to coach against a Patriot League senior on scholarship--that's a huge advantage. He is 1-0 against Temple (great). 1-1 against Army (very good). 4-5 against the CAA (not so great). Three of those wins are against URI. He is 1-5 against Villanova, Towson, and UNH (With two of those loses coming in the playoffs).

Sgarlata is getting a lot of credit for beating Marist, Columbia, and Lafayette. Lafayette has scored more than one TD in one game--and that was against Wagner, who just helped Columbia win for the first time since Haig was president. Strange times in the PL when the consensus best coach not shopping with Jenny on the block is nine days removed from dropping a close one to Harvard 45-0. Meanwhile, KillaBee seems to be the only one who knows that the Crimson are now giving more football scholarships than the Crimson Tide leading to their winning 24 of their last 25--what?! A coach named Susan is no longer the belle of the ball after losing to the Mountaineers (and people realizing that much of his record is built on playing Marist twice a year). Of course, Bucknell (or Buttsmell as we called them back in the day--sorry) will beat Army this week and Susan will be rumored to be moving to the MAC. As for my (Red) Raiders, they are in the midst of the worst stretch of games in 20 years. Which can only mean one thing: a five game winning streak, a Patriot League Championship and a first round loss at an NEC team's tiny stadium to ensure that everyone is as unhappy as they can possibly be. Go Football!!!

[RichH2]

Moorhead is excellent. No argument. Does not ipso facto make everyone else clowns.
It is the job of staff to develop all players. It seems you expect that occur quickly. Rarely does. For Lehigh,about half of our 2 deep consists of fr and so players. You cannot expect all of these kids to be ready and to be consistent. Whether our staff is recruiting the right kids and effectively developing them is an apt question. Just too soon to get an actual answer.
Kufis,Drwal and Spadola were all great WRs for us. None of them did much as frosh. Kurfis and Drwal starred as seniors. Comparing them to Casey,Kelsey,and Pelletier as sophs has little value. Look at Howard has not really played til this year. He is a solid WR and a star ST player. Time to develop. Probably the hardest thing for a fan to grant his team.

[Lehigh'98]

I know it's not as simple as this but seriously, it's at least 80% coaching. The entire PL has wet blanket coaches (sans Fordham). They suck, plain and simple. They aren't exciting to play for, they aren't particularly good at their jobs and they certainly don't seem to fully want to make all the moves necessary to win. Fordham is not this football-centric administration. It was Moorhead and staff that pushed the envelope. They fought to get transfers in, it wasn't easy for some of them. They developed players, they're just what a football staff needs to be. It's not a magic formula.

Don't get me wrong, it's not easy to find these grade A coaches. But to stick with some of the guys that have been leading PL programs into the scholarship era is downright ridiculous. If, as a league, you are going to embrace scholarships, you damn well better have the right guy leading the charge. And none of the true PL members do.

I'll admit I don't completely understand any academic things holding back non-Fordham schools, so if that's the major reason you can disregard this post. But go find a coach that wants to take these solid programs in the PL to the top again. I absolutely believe Lehigh could get a damn good coach tomorrow if they truly wanted to. I don't think it would be TOO much harder for the others.

Coaching is by far the most important thing in college football. And the Patriot League gets a fat F in it.


It really is this simple. When Higgins was at LU, he pushed the admin to get good players and raise the budget. Probably similar to what JM is doing at FU. It may be a different operating environment today, but if you get the right people in place, similar results will happen.

[Sader87]

Eye test with me, but the Ivies seem strongah top to bottom than they were 3-5 years ago.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Harvard had Fitzpatrick, Matt Birk, Clifton Dawson and numerous other big time FCS players. Penn was loaded with guys.

Lehigh definitely lost to that Birk/Fitzpatrick team. Penn was a thorn in our side before they stopped playing us. We beat the Clifton Dawson team but it was very close, if I recall.

Lehigh has never dominated the best of the Ivies.

However, Ivy teams are deeper than ever today, and everyone on their roster essentially has "scholarship money" All 100s of them. That was not the case in the past.

[aceinthehole]

Eye test with me, but the Ivies seem strongah top to bottom than they were 3-5 years ago.

Maybe, but you are only comparing the Ivy with themselves. We don't have much data or comparisons outside of Ivy-PL games.

That's my biggest problem with evaluating the Ivy League - there isn't a decent sample size of non-conference games outside of the Patriot League for any real comparison to the FCS at large.

The Ivy has been inconsistent throughout the last decade or more, and identifying the "really good" Ivy teams has been nearly impossible with the non-conference schedule they play.

Here's just one example looking at the Ivy League from the NEC's perspective. From 2009-2012, the NEC was 7-3 vs. the Ivy League. From 2013 through today, the NEC is 1-4 vs. the Ancient Eight.

Not sure what conclusions we can draw from that limited data, and maybe it does suggests the Ivy League is improving, but we won't really know until they play (and win) more games outside of the Patriot, NEC, and Pioneer.

[Sader87]

I agree ace but just pulling 2 quick games out of my hat, Yale beat Army last year and Penn beat Villanova earlier this year.

Admittedly a very small sample set but I do think the Ancient VIII has impoved...quite possibly at the expense of the PL.

[2ram]

I know it's not as simple as this but seriously, it's at least 80% coaching. The entire PL has wet blanket coaches (sans Fordham). They suck, plain and simple. They aren't exciting to play for, they aren't particularly good at their jobs and they certainly don't seem to fully want to make all the moves necessary to win. Fordham is not this football-centric administration. It was Moorhead and staff that pushed the envelope. They fought to get transfers in, it wasn't easy for some of them. They developed players, they're just what a football staff needs to be. It's not a magic formula.

Don't get me wrong, it's not easy to find these grade A coaches. But to stick with some of the guys that have been leading PL programs into the scholarship era is downright ridiculous. If, as a league, you are going to embrace scholarships, you damn well better have the right guy leading the charge. And none of the true PL members do.

I'll admit I don't completely understand any academic things holding back non-Fordham schools, so if that's the major reason you can disregard this post. But go find a coach that wants to take these solid programs in the PL to the top again. I absolutely believe Lehigh could get a damn good coach tomorrow if they truly wanted to. I don't think it would be TOO much harder for the others.

Coaching is by far the most important thing in college football. And the Patriot League gets a fat F in it.

not gonna argue with that logic. good coaching matters more than anything, followed by good players. fordham is lucky to have good coaches that have brought in the leagues best players. idk how we got chase edmonds, but nebrich and t buck jr. were xfers from uconn where JM was his coach, and somehow we pulled anderson from marshall.

those are the kinds of players you need sprinkled in with a solid base class to elevate your program. you need coaches that can reel them in, develop them, and either put them in situations that favor their skill sets, or get players that fit your playbook.

i can't speak to the other PL staffs, but i know that's happening at fordham. my guess is that the top IL programs are able to do the same. on most saturdays (and yes, i watch other PL teams) the rest of the PL coaches look like they're just happy to have nice uniforms. i am constantly confused by play calls, i don't see much fire in their teams, and i dont' see schemes that seem match personnel well.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Revoke Title IX, spend all available funds on football. Same goes for NEC. Let the remaining sports (men's basketball excluded) fend for themselves.

[aceinthehole]

I agree ace but just pulling 2 quick games out of my hat, Yale beat Army last year and Penn beat Villanova earlier this year.

Admittedly a very small sample set but I do think the Ancient VIII has impoved...quite possibly at the expense of the PL.

Agreed, those were very good wins for the Ivy - and the problem is you would have to go back decades to find any other comparable wins for the Ivy League.

I would also note Harvard wasn't involved in those wins.

[4211LBLS]

Something seems to be clearly amiss with Patriot League football. The supposed panacea of scholarships (save GTown) is now in Year 3 with mostly little effect league-wide so fahh. The league seems to be falling (in some cases, drastically) behind the Ancient VIII, losses continue against supposed lesser league teams, crowds on game-days are mostly sparse, older generations of fans of once proud football programs are either dying off or have left in disinterest with very few to replace them. The list could go on but I shant bore you more on this post.

Is the only answer time? I dunno...it seems like more is at work here than "growing pains" to me.

Thoughts? Solutions?

I think it is too early to tell. This is an unusual year. I would say to look at the next two years.

On the flip side, I do have some concerns. There will be 63 scholarships, or 60, whatever the number is. My concern comes from the issue that any other kid that qualifies for academic aid this money counts against the scholarships. So if I understand this correctly, if a kid walks on he can either receive no aid, or any aid he does receive counts against the 63. Say you have a tremendously smart kid that gets some academic money. He decides he wants to walk on to the football team and he athletically qualified to be on the team and he makes the team. Does that money count against scholarships available? Does a coach potentially turn that kid down because the coach would rather have the funds available for a more talented scholarship player vs. a walk-on?

If all this is the case I see PL rosters getting smaller. I see freshmen having to come in and be expected to play right away. Would like to hear your thoughts.

[Sader87]

It's really a shame Harvard has become insular/soft in scheduling undah Murphy's regime. Harvard versus some of the stongah CAA teams(UNH, W&M etc) or an Army etc would be great games.

[RichH2]

All aid counts vs schollie cap BUT,PL recently amended by laws to permit 3 true WOs that dont count vs caps. Theoretically,all teams could get to 63. :). True WOs that can actually contribute on the field are very rare but the possibility exists.

[aceinthehole]

It's really a shame Harvard has become insular/soft in scheduling undah Murphy's regime. Harvard versus some of the stongah CAA teams(UNH, W&M etc) or an Army etc would be great games.

Maybe, but the fact is we'd never know.

Here is an ugly FACT for the Harvard bandwagon fans who continue to vote them in the Top-25 poll.

Under HC Murphy (since 1994), the Crimson have a non-conference record of 43-19. He is 38-18 vs. the Patriot League, 2-0 vs. San Diego, and 3-1 vs. Northeastern. This includes a record of 15-5 vs. Holy Cross and 15-2 vs. Lafayette.

Bottom line: During this time, Harvard has won 30 of 62 non-conference games vs. just 2 PL opponents!

[Doc QB]

Not really accurate DFW. Of LU's 30 frosh,including 4WOs,18 had offers from FBS or FCS schools. Not likely we would have gotten them without merit aid. The soph class has about the same ratio. Our first class probably fits your theory as we would have gotten most,but not all,of them either way.

Rich, please post if you can our recruiting spread sheet or PM me where I can see it again, the one that lists offers, etc...I find it VERY hard to believe that we had 18 kids get FCS/FBS offers, and if true, would wager my extensive whisky collection that they were 90% other PL or NEC and not CAA offers. I just cant see why there is a perceived 'problem' with recruiting scholarship players, regardless of what Dunlap said (who my Dad played for at LU and loves). My thought is that Moorhead is the ONLY PL coach who spent time at an FBS program and is a better evaluator of talent, while Gilmore, Coen, Tavani are PL/Ivy lifers and have only been seeing that type of athlete for decades and have no ability to judge the next step of speed and two inches and twenty pounds in kids. I think this is a real issue and may explain why our classes do kinda seem like more of the same athletes, no going to school with a different lable to their aid. And our assistants are way young and have really pretty pedestrian coaching pedigrees as well...they can not be expected to have the eye to see that better level of athlete either.

To fix that, Coen should look at those recruiting websites we all adore, see who the CAA teams with some academic street cred are after (W&M, Richmond, some of UD and Nova's kids), our just ask their assistants in the airport who they are after. They see each other on the road all the time, it isnt a secret. Then Coen should find those recruits, sit in their driveways all day, and whe he gets in the house explain to these athletes and families how you will get a tremendous degree, can PLAY EARLY and not have to redshirt (sell it!), play the best of the IVY and CAA teams, compete for league titles and get to play in the big dance when you earn it. You'll convert more than a few CAA type guys if you pound pavement, guys who want to play earlier, not wait in line, redshirt, play a fun schedule. To h&ll with the Ivy recuirts, they want that fancier piece of paper for the wall, dont even try to flip 'em. This shouldnt be that hard of a sell, the guys are out there. I think our approach is wrong and our staff doesnt target the right guys.

And I think Moorhead IS doing this, and better than us, as well as coaching.

[Bill]

Doc,

Well said. FWIW, my brother was on the committee (way back when) at Colgate that actually recommended scholarships for football, and displayed how it wouldn't cost that much more money to do it. The warning/caution that the committee concluded with was (and I paraphrase) - "be careful what you wish for. The switch to scholarships is going to place a premium on coaches recruiting the right players...if they get it wrong, results could get worse." The committee also believed this would lead to more coaching turnover with the added pressure of getting it right & winning...kid of prophetic, if anyone actually gets fired in the PL :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Using this famous "eye test" everyone is talking about, my view of Lehigh's freshman class is that it's the best we've had, as a unit, in decades.

We went from having no running game to a stable of running backs and a true freshman that has back-to-back 100 yard games (and another who had a 100 yard game before he got hurt). We have a LB that stepped in for our best defensive player and had two outstanding games. An injury led to our starting safety being out for the season, and in comes another freshman who makes a huge, huge play to prevent a TD versus Bucknell. In seasons past it would have been considered a great recruiting class if we had one of those types of guys. Instead we have 4-5 major contributors. And that's not even including our 3* QB Mayes, who vaulted up to No. 2 on the depth chart. It's exciting to see what he might be able to do eventually.

Currently I do not see Lehigh with a "problem" in recruiting. In fact, recruiting is what's behind the win last weekend. Without that great recruiting class, I think we lose that game.

[Doc QB]

Doc,

Well said. FWIW, my brother was on the committee (way back when) at Colgate that actually recommended scholarships for football, and displayed how it wouldn't cost that much more money to do it. The warning/caution that the committee concluded with was (and I paraphrase) - "be careful what you wish for. The switch to scholarships is going to place a premium on coaches recruiting the right players...if they get it wrong, results could get worse." The committee also believed this would lead to more coaching turnover with the added pressure of getting it right & winning...kid of prophetic, if anyone actually gets fired in the PL :)

Appreciate the insight, Bill. But what I cant wrap my thick head around is why recruiting the athletes who were higher on our wishlist, at the upper margin of what we could usually get, and going after them without the restrictions of your mom and dad's FAFSA forms, would cause such global heartburn and why going after them, getting some of them, makes us worse as a league. Growing pains? By going after better athletes? No way. Because we can go after a higher skill level we have now forgotten how to identify good athletes, sign them, and coach them up? BS. Well, maybe coach 'em up is lacking.

And if league wide we have better athletes across the board, but they are all underclassman, why are we so bad as a league as the Thread was conceived by Sader87? Because every teams' senior class is bad? Are they all to blame across the board? Makes no sense. To me, it still comes back to coaching, whether we are getting better guys or not (and I am still not convinced we are just yet).

Go get better athletes. It should be that simple. And to your point about the 'Gates warning...we've been wrong with kids on need based aid for decades...what do you call those four year non-starters on the bench? The CAA does it, minus the roster caps, but when you red shirt an entire class, hey, guess what? The numbers you can suit up and play on game day comes shockingly back to our level of numbers. They do it, why cant we? I just dont buy the learning curve argument.

I think it comes down to the head coach and the staff they assemble. Can they coach. Can they recruit. If yes to both, we get more W's as a conference.

[RichH2]

Rich, please post if you can our recruiting spread sheet or PM me where I can see it again, the one that lists offers, etc...I find it VERY hard to believe that we had 18 kids get FCS/FBS offers, and if true, would wager my extensive whisky collection that they were 90% other PL or NEC and not CAA offers. I just cant see why there is a perceived 'problem' with recruiting scholarship players, regardless of what Dunlap said (who my Dad played for at LU and loves). My thought is that Moorhead is the ONLY PL coach who spent time at an FBS program and is a better evaluator of talent, while Gilmore, Coen, Tavani are PL/Ivy lifers and have only been seeing that type of athlete for decades and have no ability to judge the next step of speed and two inches and twenty pounds in kids. I think this is a real issue and may explain why our classes do kinda seem like more of the same athletes, no going to school with a different lable to their aid. And our assistants are way young and have really pretty pedestrian coaching pedigrees as well...they can not be expected to have the eye to see that better level of athlete either.

To fix that, Coen should look at those recruiting websites we all adore, see who the CAA teams with some academic street cred are after (W&M, Richmond, some of UD and Nova's kids), our just ask their assistants in the airport who they are after. They see each other on the road all the time, it isnt a secret. Then Coen should find those recruits, sit in their driveways all day, and whe he gets in the house explain to these athletes and families how you will get a tremendous degree, can PLAY EARLY and not have to redshirt (sell it!), play the best of the IVY and CAA teams, compete for league titles and get to play in the big dance when you earn it. You'll convert more than a few CAA type guys if you pound pavement, guys who want to play earlier, not wait in line, redshirt, play a fun schedule. To h&ll with the Ivy recuirts, they want that fancier piece of paper for the wall, dont even try to flip 'em. This shouldnt be that hard of a sell, the guys are out there. I think our approach is wrong and our staff doesnt target the right guys.

And I think Moorhead IS doing this, and better than us, as well as coaching.
Well said.I'll ask todd to put link up again. If he cant I will post offers on our board.
Besides being an excellent coach Moorhead does have some significant advantages in cominig into a more mature schollie recruit situation with experience in that arena. Agree none of the other HCs had that situation. A steep learning curve. Two facts are evident from our first class. 1.We started late that yr with schollie offers.2. We underaimed in targeting recruits. We signed some we would not have gotten,Shaf,Duffy ,but most were indeed the same as pre schollie. Subsequent classes have improved markedly.
Coaches do follow those recruiting sites as well as NCAA authorized services that we have no access to. Andy has all the coaches on twitter to follow potential recruits in their area.

Too early to really determine accurately the success of recruiting.
Our main competition for recruits now are CAA,Service academies,IL,low to mid FBS,PL. Pretty much in that order last year.
To your point with senior class quality. Some solid starters but not a single difference maker. Look at our 2 deep ,half of them are frosh and soph. Better athletes ? Certainly. Are they consistent or all ready to be on the field. Nope,but they will be.

[DFW HOYA]

Don't underestimate the divergence between Fordham's spend on football and that of the rest of the league.

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-arms-race.html

[Franks Tanks]

Agree with Doc. At Lafayette our current Junior class is pretty poor. Right now we have only a handful of starters from that class, and that is with very few seniors. We have some quality juniors, but our 1st scholarship class was a failure. In my opinion the current Freshman are out 1st real scholarship class.

Also agree that some of our league lifers are struggling. For example some of our better players were referred to Lafayette by Bob Heffner. He was looking at them himself, but were deemed not a fit for Northwestern! Mzarek, Brown and Powe fit this category.

[Doc QB]

Using this famous "eye test" everyone is talking about, my view of Lehigh's freshman class is that it's the best we've had, as a unit, in decades.

We went from having no running game to a stable of running backs and a true freshman that has back-to-back 100 yard games (and another who had a 100 yard game before he got hurt). We have a LB that stepped in for our best defensive player and had two outstanding games. An injury led to our starting safety being out for the season, and in comes another freshman who makes a huge, huge play to prevent a TD versus Bucknell. In seasons past it would have been considered a great recruiting class if we had one of those types of guys. Instead we have 4-5 major contributors. And that's not even including our 3* QB Mayes, who vaulted up to No. 2 on the depth chart. It's exciting to see what he might be able to do eventually. Currently I do not see Lehigh with a "problem" in recruiting. In fact, recruiting is what's behind the win last weekend. Without that great recruiting class, I think we lose that game.

LFN, agree to some degree. But, we have had frosh step in and play in the past. This year they have had to secondary to attrition, lack of senior class talent and injury as much as those frosh's inherent talent. Remember, if Yosha stays healthy and the other guy isnt homesick, we have two solid RBs and Dom doesnt see the field. I dont think recruiting won the game, our Defense finally stopped a limping offense, and gave us a chance for the W that we earned. Wasnt glamorous, but a team effort.

Hell, in our time at LU, do you remember Richie Clark as a frosh make a game winning TD catch? I think it was against Towson. Kevin D'Ambrosia did it the same year, wasnt even on the two deep pregame. Clark had a solid career while Kevin struggled. We have had some underrecruited frosh get meaningful minutes and we've had guys who had offers from Yankee/A10/CAA programs have a pretty unremarkable careers (a-hem, me...). I think the recruiting is largely the same, for now, but understand that we may have some potential younger impact guys for sure, and I am willing to be patient to see the fruits, I understand it takes time, but I wont be convinced until these guys go live. So, the present state of the PL union comes down to the coaching, league wide, which is my answer to Sader87's thread title. Change coaches.

[Bill]

L
Hell, in our time at LU, do you remember Richie Clark as a frosh make a game winning TD catch? I think it was against Towson. Kevin D'Ambrosia did it the same year, wasnt even on the two deep pregame..

Doc
Thanks for taking me back...tell me you can't hear Peter Giunta's Boston accent saying "make the big catch, Kevin D'Ambrosia "...or any other receiver, for that matter!

[RichH2]

Remember the catch. Agree potential is nice but we all can recall "super"recruits that flopped and under ghe radar guys who starred. One of the reasons I keep saying wait.
Over the years there have been individual frosh who were not only ready but starred as frosh. I have never seen that in the mass numbers we are seeing thus year. I suppose a comparison could be made with those prior years in the number of frosh that produced then to now. Thus year we have 3-4. Has any other class had as many?

[WMTribe90]

Good discussion. I was recruited by PL, Ivy, Service Academy, and CAA programs back in the mid-90s and chose WM. I took official visits to three CAA programs and two Ivies. I grew up in PA and took unofficial visits to Bucknell and Lehigh.

Howver, even if the PL offered scholarships back then I don't think it would have changed my decision. The CAA still has key advantages over a scholarship PL:

1) Redshirting
2) Annual matchups with FBS opponents
3) Generally higher level of conference play
4) Generally better fan support
5) National TV exposure through NBC Sports

So, I think I agree with the poster that said the PL is likely getting roughly the same recruits they would have gotten without scholarships, only now they're on scholarship. Any gains from the PL offering scholarships have likely been erased by the NEC offering scholarships and the Ivies upping the financial aide packages.

I was very concerned about PL scholarships when they were announced three years ago. WM's mix of high level academics and FCS scholarship football has also been a successful recruiting niche. I follow every recruiting class very closely. In the past three years I do not recall losing a scholarship recruit to a PL team. Not to say there may not have been one, but its certainly has not been a theme or an increase over previous years. WM definitely loses recruits to the Ivy (one a year on average). We had a high profile DE/TE decommit to sign with UPenn a few years back. For kids on either end of the income scale, the draw of an Ivy degree can be a powerful draw. My family was decidedly middle class, so I opted for WM over Harvard and Dartmouth.

There is a possibility that PL scholarships are cutting into the preferred walk-on pool at CAA programs, but that is hard to quantify. The majority of WMs walk-on come from VA, so we can offer in-state tuition and real chance at earning a scholarship and an opportunity to stay close to home.

I think the Ivies have rebounded somewhat. After a down decade or so, the conference seems to be back to where it was in the mid to late 90s when there were some very good UPenn and Harvard teams. I would not make too much of Penn beating Villanova, when Nova had five days to prepare a rFr QB to replace the reigning Walter Payton award winner at QB.

WM recently won both games in a two game (home and home) series with Penn. As I recall, neither contest was super close. As other posters have mentioned, it's hard to distinguish good from great in the Ivies due to the poor SOS and safe OOC scheduling.

[aceinthehole]

I think the Ivies have rebounded somewhat. After a down decade or so, the conference seems to be back to where it was in the mid to late 90s when there were some very good UPenn and Harvard teams. I would not make too much of Penn beating Villanova, when Nova had five days to prepare a rFr QB to replace the reigning Walter Payton award winner at QB.

WM recently won both games in a two game (home and home) series with Penn. As I recall, neither contest was super close. As other posters have mentioned, it's hard to distinguish good from great in the Ivies due to the poor SOS and safe OOC scheduling.

Were the mid-1990s really Harvard's "very good years"? xconfusedx


Year

Team

Win
Loss
Tie
Delta



1994 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1994)

Harvard (MA)

4


6


0


0.40000


209


254


-45




1995 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1995)

Harvard (MA)

2


8


0


0.20000


183


258


-75




1996 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1996)

Harvard (MA)

4


6


0


0.40000


163


164


-1




1997 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1997)

Harvard (MA)

9


1


0


0.90000


301


123


178




1998 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1998)

Harvard (MA)

4


6


0


0.40000


136


211


-75




1999 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1999)

Harvard (MA)

5


5


0


0.50000


254


191


63




2000 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=2000)

Harvard (MA)

5


5


0


0.50000


327


255


72







Opponent

Win
Loss
Tie
Delta



Brown (RI) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=421)


2


5


0

0.28571
117
192
-75



Bucknell (PA) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=433)


1


2


0

0.33333
73
73
0



Colgate (NY) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=749)


2


2


0

0.50000
98
93
5



Columbia (NY) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=773)


4


3


0

0.57143
179
118
61



Cornell (NY) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=820)


2


5


0

0.28571
157
140
17



Dartmouth (NH) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=868)


5


2


0

0.71429
201
76
125



Fordham (NY) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=1124)


1


1


0

0.50000
58
54
4



Holy Cross (MA) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=1459)


5


2


0

0.71429
199
151
48



Lafayette (PA) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=1667)


1


1


0

0.50000
49
36
13



Lehigh (PA) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=1717)


1


2


0

0.33333
65
96
-31



Pennsylvania (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=2519)


1


6


0

0.14286
128
186
-58



Princeton (NJ) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=2637)


5


2


0

0.71429
119
93
26



Yale (CT) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=3649)


3


4


0

0.42857
130
148
-18





Totals

33
37
0
0.47143
1573
1456
117



Not much to brag about there. Way too much nostalgia for Harvard and the Ives.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Personally I think people on this thread are overblowing this in a big way.

Of course some CAA recruits are getting peeled away by PL schools. Not in massive quantities, but enough.

Of course redshirting will continue to be a small advantage that the CAA will continue to enjoy, but the advantage is small compared to the advantage they enjoyed when a school can offer a kid money that was getting at most a 1/2 scholarship from a PL school. That also cuts both ways. Do you think Chase Edmonds would have preferred waiting a year, or jumping right in and winning a Walter Payton award?

Of course there has been an adjustment period when scholarships come into full effect across the league, and Moorhead has a head start. But scholarships have had a positive effect on Lehigh's team - I have seen it. There's evidence that it's positive around the league, too. How many of the league's starting QBs would be here without scholarships? Only one, and that's Kyle Nolan.

Judging scholarships effectiveness against the Ivies is a fool's game because the Ivies have their own rules. Having said that, Yale has walloped Cal Poly and Army in consecutive years. That's pretty good evidence that they're not exactly the same team they were years ago when they were losing to San Diego. It's impossible to completely compare "Ivies then and now" because the Ivies themselves have been moving and changing. But I don't think there's a question that they are very good.

Fordham's struggles against Nova are certainly a bit disconcerting, but Nova was a semifinalist last season, so losing to them last season might not be the end of the world. Also, losing to them this year with a healthy Robinson might not be the end of the world, either.

Basically, get back to me in a couple years if we are still having this conversation.

[WMTribe90]

Personally I think people on this thread are overblowing this in a big way.

Of course some CAA recruits are getting peeled away by PL schools. Not in massive quantities, but enough.

Of course redshirting will continue to be a small advantage that the CAA will continue to enjoy, but the advantage is small compared to the advantage they enjoyed when a school can offer a kid money that was getting at most a 1/2 scholarship from a PL school. That also cuts both ways. Do you think Chase Edmonds would have preferred waiting a year, or jumping right in and winning a Walter Payton award?

Of course there has been an adjustment period when scholarships come into full effect across the league, and Moorhead has a head start. But scholarships have had a positive effect on Lehigh's team - I have seen it. There's evidence that it's positive around the league, too. How many of the league's starting QBs would be here without scholarships? Only one, and that's Kyle Nolan.

Judging scholarships effectiveness against the Ivies is a fool's game because the Ivies have their own rules. Having said that, Yale has walloped Cal Poly and Army in consecutive years. That's pretty good evidence that they're not exactly the same team they were years ago when they were losing to San Diego. It's impossible to completely compare "Ivies then and now" because the Ivies themselves have been moving and changing. But I don't think there's a question that they are very good.

Fordham's struggles against Nova are certainly a bit disconcerting, but Nova was a semifinalist last season, so losing to them last season might not be the end of the world. Also, losing to them this year with a healthy Robinson might not be the end of the world, either.

Basically, get back to me in a couple years if we are still having this conversation.

Scholarship offers are easily tracked these days via recruiting websites. If you're right and PLs are picking up recruits with CAA offers then it should be easy enough to point to some examples to support your article of faith claim. I can only speak for WM, but PL scholarships have not resulted in us losing more recruits to the PL. Offering scholarships is only a prerequisite for competing with the CAA for recruits, not some guarantee.

I think redshirting, in addition to the other differences I listed, are more important to recruits than you are willing to admit. As someone who went through the process I was well aware that I would have a year to get acclimated to college life/academics and get bigger/stronger before playing at WM. I also new the CAA was generally a better brand of football and I would have an opportunity to play ACC and BE programs once a year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Scholarship offers are easily tracked these days via recruiting websites. If you're right and PLs are picking up recruits with CAA offers then it should be easy enough to point to some examples to support your article of faith claim. I can only speak for WM, but PL scholarships have not resulted in us losing more recruits to the PL. Offering scholarships is only a prerequisite for competing with the CAA for recruits, not some guarantee.

I think redshirting, in addition to the other differences I listed, are more important to recruits than you are willing to admit. As someone who went through the process I was well aware that I would have a year to get acclimated to college life/academics and get bigger/stronger before playing at WM. I also new the CAA was generally a better brand of football and I would have an opportunity to play ACC and BE programs once a year.

Also worthy of mention, PL teams now are beginning to play these types of FBS teams, almost entirely thanks to scholarships. Lehigh playing Navy, Bucknell playing Army, Cross playing BC, etc. Certainly historically the CAA has had FCS national championship-competing teams, and the PL hasn't had that. And redshirting may sway some recruits.

[WMTribe90]

Were the mid-1990s really Harvard's "very good years"? xconfusedx


Year

Team

Win
Loss
Tie
Delta



1994 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1994)

Harvard (MA)

4


6


0


0.40000


209


254


-45




1995 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1995)

Harvard (MA)

2


8


0


0.20000


183


258


-75




1996 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1996)

Harvard (MA)

4


6


0


0.40000


163


164


-1




1997 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1997)

Harvard (MA)

9


1


0


0.90000


301


123


178




1998 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1998)

Harvard (MA)

4


6


0


0.40000


136


211


-75




1999 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=1999)

Harvard (MA)

5


5


0


0.50000


254


191


63




2000 (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=1700&year=2000)

Harvard (MA)

5


5


0


0.50000


327


255


72







Opponent

Win
Loss
Tie
Delta



Brown (RI) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=421)


2


5


0

0.28571
117
192
-75



Bucknell (PA) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=433)


1


2


0

0.33333
73
73
0



Colgate (NY) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=749)


2


2


0

0.50000
98
93
5



Columbia (NY) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=773)


4


3


0

0.57143
179
118
61



Cornell (NY) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=820)


2


5


0

0.28571
157
140
17



Dartmouth (NH) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=868)


5


2


0

0.71429
201
76
125



Fordham (NY) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=1124)


1


1


0

0.50000
58
54
4



Holy Cross (MA) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=1459)


5


2


0

0.71429
199
151
48



Lafayette (PA) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=1667)


1


1


0

0.50000
49
36
13



Lehigh (PA) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=1717)


1


2


0

0.33333
65
96
-31



Pennsylvania (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=2519)


1


6


0

0.14286
128
186
-58



Princeton (NJ) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=2637)


5


2


0

0.71429
119
93
26



Yale (CT) (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/h/harvard/opponents_records.php?teamid=3649)


3


4


0

0.42857
130
148
-18





Totals

33
37
0
0.47143
1573
1456
117



Not much to brag about there. Way too much nostalgia for Harvard and the Ives.

I'll admit to shooting a bit from the hip on Harvard. I knew Penn had a long win streak in the mid 90's. Guessing that the 1997 Harvard team is the one that stuck in my mind. Looking at the year by year results, Harvard has had pretty sustained success over the past 15 years. Just comes back to the fact that its hard to draw any conclusions on the Ivies due to their OOC scheduling and lack of playoff participation.

[CFBfan]

[QUOTE=RichH2;2265582]Sader,this a case of premature speculation :).

which is at least better then premature.....never mind

[aceinthehole]

I'll admit to shooting a bit from the hip on Harvard. I knew Penn had a long win streak in the mid 90's. Guessing that the 1997 Harvard team is the one that stuck in my mind. Looking at the year by year results, Harvard has had pretty sustained success over the past 15 years. Just comes back to the fact that its hard to draw any conclusions on the Ivies due to their OOC scheduling and lack of playoff participation.

Yep, we agree in principle - I'm just more straightforward about the undue benefits generally given to the Ivy League teams.

Regarding Harvard specifically, I think everyone agrees they have been the best Ivy League team over the past 15 years. Many others might even suggest, based on their non-conference results, they are the best Patriot League team during this period as well. I just have no patience for the all reverence thrown on a particular program that in the last 20 years continues to play a 10-game schedule, abstains from playoff participation, has 50% of its non-conference wins against just 2 teams (Holy Cross and Lafayette), all while dominating a league that has been steadily "de-emphasizing" football since 1981.

[4211LBLS]

All aid counts vs schollie cap BUT,PL recently amended by laws to permit 3 true WOs that dont count vs caps. Theoretically,all teams could get to 63. :). True WOs that can actually contribute on the field are very rare but the possibility exists.

Not so fast friend. LC has several of those type walk-ons contributing and a couple starting. I see the PL having a problem.

[4211LBLS]

Scholarship offers are easily tracked these days via recruiting websites. If you're right and PLs are picking up recruits with CAA offers then it should be easy enough to point to some examples to support your article of faith claim. I can only speak for WM, but PL scholarships have not resulted in us losing more recruits to the PL. Offering scholarships is only a prerequisite for competing with the CAA for recruits, not some guarantee.

I think redshirting, in addition to the other differences I listed, are more important to recruits than you are willing to admit. As someone who went through the process I was well aware that I would have a year to get acclimated to college life/academics and get bigger/stronger before playing at WM. I also new the CAA was generally a better brand of football and I would have an opportunity to play ACC and BE programs once a year.

You are right. Some here just don't want to admit it. redshirting is very important for a committed, passionate football player. CAA is losing no one to the PL.

[FordhamFan]

You are right. Some here just don't want to admit it. redshirting is very important for a committed, passionate football player. CAA is losing no one to the PL.

I just don't see it as a HUGE thing. It's somewhere in the middle. Every good to very good player I can remember coming into Fordham while I was there liked the idea of playing early. For lineman that may not be big enough, agreed it can be a big thing. But I still think it's a minuscule percentage of guys factoring sitting out a year into their decision. What really good player is like, "yeah, I can't wait to sit out a year. I definitely want to focus on class." Just don't buy it.

I think the better brand of football, more pro prospects, better coverage and chance to play FBS teams are all much bigger factors. Fact is, CAA teams just have a much better football reputation than PL teams. That seems like the biggest thing.

And I too, can't speak for other schools, but I can name a few Fordham guys that had CAA offers. In general, I doubt it is many at all though.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the better brand of football, more pro prospects, better coverage and chance to play FBS teams are all much bigger factors. Fact is, CAA teams just have a much better football reputation than PL teams. That seems like the biggest thing.

No argument from me on these. However, the PL has made inroads on.... every single one of these bullet points.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I just don't see it as a HUGE thing. It's somewhere in the middle. Every good to very good player I can remember coming into Fordham while I was there liked the idea of playing early. For lineman that may not be big enough, agreed it can be a big thing. But I still think it's a minuscule percentage of guys factoring sitting out a year into their decision. What really good player is like, "yeah, I can't wait to sit out a year. I definitely want to focus on class." Just don't buy it.

I think the better brand of football, more pro prospects, better coverage and chance to play FBS teams are all much bigger factors. Fact is, CAA teams just have a much better football reputation than PL teams. That seems like the biggest thing.

And I too, can't speak for other schools, but I can name a few Fordham guys that had CAA offers. In general though, I doubt it is many at all though.

Lehigh, if you ask people in the Northeast, has a good football reputation. They have a good track record both recently and historically. So do other PL schools. Much more so than URI, SBU, Albany, Towson, Elon and Maine.

A school or athletic department that is serious about winning at the national level does retain guys like Frank Tavani and Gilmore. You can't have a coach who is going to notch his 6th straight losing season and say you're serious about winning. He would be canned at just about every school in in CAA, BSC, SoCon, OVC and MVFC. Likewise with Gilmore. Coen, Susan and Hunt would be on very short leashes where winning truly matters.

I don't buy the redshirt excuse either because the PL has overcome it in the past with better coaching staffs. The bottom line, is the CAA has better coaches and better institutional commitment right now.

[Neighbor2]

Go Lehigh TU owl-

Your last paragraph sums it all up nicely! The Patriot League needs even more commitment, and on all levels.

This is a difficult pill for some alums to swallow, but middling effort brings middling success. For some, all is well as is. Too bad. It's more fun for everyone at the highest level of your division.

Just ask Delaware!

[RichH2]

Not so fast friend. LC has several of those type walk-ons contributing and a couple starting. I see the PL having a problem.
Thats great for Pards. No problem unless they are recruited WOs. All of their aid would cont. If not 3 dont count vs cap,the rest do.

[Lehigh'98]

Personally I think people on this thread are overblowing this in a big way.

Of course some CAA recruits are getting peeled away by PL schools. Not in massive quantities, but enough.

Of course redshirting will continue to be a small advantage that the CAA will continue to enjoy, but the advantage is small compared to the advantage they enjoyed when a school can offer a kid money that was getting at most a 1/2 scholarship from a PL school. That also cuts both ways. Do you think Chase Edmonds would have preferred waiting a year, or jumping right in and winning a Walter Payton award?

Of course there has been an adjustment period when scholarships come into full effect across the league, and Moorhead has a head start. But scholarships have had a positive effect on Lehigh's team - I have seen it. There's evidence that it's positive around the league, too. How many of the league's starting QBs would be here without scholarships? Only one, and that's Kyle Nolan.

Judging scholarships effectiveness against the Ivies is a fool's game because the Ivies have their own rules. Having said that, Yale has walloped Cal Poly and Army in consecutive years. That's pretty good evidence that they're not exactly the same team they were years ago when they were losing to San Diego. It's impossible to completely compare "Ivies then and now" because the Ivies themselves have been moving and changing. But I don't think there's a question that they are very good.

Fordham's struggles against Nova are certainly a bit disconcerting, but Nova was a semifinalist last season, so losing to them last season might not be the end of the world. Also, losing to them this year with a healthy Robinson might not be the end of the world, either.

Basically, get back to me in a couple years if we are still having this conversation.

What exactly have you seen that Lehigh didn't do better in years past? There were better athletes before on a macro level and deeper rosters. Even in 2011 and 12 vs today, there is a big size and talent gap. I'm sorry to say this, but Shaf is a very avg qb. I know you like being positive, but the program is trending down. One win over a poor Bucknell team does not change that

[Go Green]

Harvard had Fitzpatrick, Matt Birk, Clifton Dawson and numerous other big time FCS players. Penn was loaded with guys. Brown had a helluva WR Chad Gessner and Nick Hartigan at RB who was a beast.

Longtime posters on the Ivy Board have said that they think Dalyn Williams is the best Ivy QB they've ever seen.

One opposing coach reportedly said that Harvard's offensive line this year was as good as many BCS teams.

We don't have an all-world RB this year, but many people thought Yale's Tyler Varga last year was one of the all-time greats.

No disrespect to the players of the 2009s. Many, many fine guys. But a pretty good case can be made that the Ivy players of the 2000s stack up favorably than their predecessors.

[RichH2]

Not so fast friend. LC has several of those type walk-ons contributing and a couple starting. I see the PL having a problem.


What exactly have you seen that Lehigh didn't do better in years past? There were better athletes before on a macro level and deeper rosters. Even in 2011 and 12 vs today, there is a big size and talent gap. I'm sorry to say this, but Shaf is a very avg qb. I know you like being positive, but the program is trending down. One win over a poor Bucknell team does not change that
So basically you're saying that the apples of then are better than the oranges of today. Perhaps so but the comparison still inapt as the landscape is markedly different now. Would Higgins best beat the best of the PL now? Probably. Would that team beat us after a few more years of schollies. Well,wr'll know in a coupla more years.

[Son of Eli]

I agree ace but just pulling 2 quick games out of my hat, Yale beat Army last year and Penn beat Villanova earlier this year.

Admittedly a very small sample set but I do think the Ancient VIII has impoved...quite possibly at the expense of the PL.


Yale also beat Cal Poly in 2013.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

So basically you're saying that the apples of then are better than the oranges of today. Perhaps so but the comparison still inapt as the landscape is markedly different now. Would Higgins best beat the best of the PL now? Probably. Would that team beat us after a few more years of schollies. Well,wr'll know in a coupla more years.

Why do you have to wait a couple more years? There should not have been this big of a drop off as teams "transition" to scholarships. The scholarship players should have blended in with what should have been a quality merit base classes.

The staff was recruiting these first few scholarship classes when Lehigh was in the Top 25 for something like 40 straight weeks including a Top 5/6 final ranking in the national polls. They should have parlayed that in to better talent regardless of the financial semantics.

[RichH2]

Not so fast friend. LC has several of those type walk-ons contributing and a couple starting. I see the PL having a problem.


Why do you have to wait a couple more years? There should not have been this big of a drop off as teams "transition" to scholarships. The scholarship players should have blended in with what should have been a quality merit base classes.

The staff was recruiting these first few scholarship classes when Lehigh was in the Top 25 for something like 40 straight weeks including a Top 5/6 final ranking in the national polls. They should have parlayed that in to better talent regardless of the financial semantics.
Last 2 classes non schollie not great .10-1 yr more a factor of a weak schedule.8-3 Cracks showing big time. D got even worse. New staff. Last yr was embarrassing.
This is a rebuilding year and we're doing it with a blah sr class,a partial jr class and sophs and jrs. Our team is young. Probably right that those last 2 classes have created this situation. But this is the situation we have. The new staff has brought in 2 good classes. Gie them a chance to perform.

[Lehigh'98]

So basically you're saying that the apples of then are better than the oranges of today. Perhaps so but the comparison still inapt as the landscape is markedly different now. Would Higgins best beat the best of the PL now? Probably. Would that team beat us after a few more years of schollies. Well,wr'll know in a coupla more years.

The landscape is always changing in life, you either adapt and thrive or keep trying to do things the old way that doesn't work anymore. Somehow teams like Fordham and Harvard do well and they have the same constraints. Remember Coen has been at Lehigh or Penn since 93 or 94 I think. He is entrenched in doing things that have always been done there. It's a bit premature to call for his job, but some type of major overhaul is needed. No one is expecting Lehigh to morph into Ohio State, but as long as I've been familiar with Lehigh, losing hasn't been tolerated well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Somehow teams like Fordham and Harvard do well and they have the same constraints.

They absolutely do not. Fordham had scholarships years before the rest. Harvard has every single player on its roster on "scholarship". Hence: performance against high Ivies are a poor barometer, effect of scholarships too early to tell in PL.

[Son of Eli]

Maybe, but you are only comparing the Ivy with themselves. We don't have much data or comparisons outside of Ivy-PL games.

That's my biggest problem with evaluating the Ivy League - there isn't a decent sample size of non-conference games outside of the Patriot League for any real comparison to the FCS at large.

The Ivy has been inconsistent throughout the last decade or more, and identifying the "really good" Ivy teams has been nearly impossible with the non-conference schedule they play.

Here's just one example looking at the Ivy League from the NEC's perspective. From 2009-2012, the NEC was 7-3 vs. the Ivy League. From 2013 through today, the NEC is 1-4 vs. the Ancient Eight.

Not sure what conclusions we can draw from that limited data, and maybe it does suggests the Ivy League is improving, but we won't really know until they play (and win) more games outside of the Patriot, NEC, and Pioneer.

Columbia just dominated Wagner after losing 24 straight games. The Ivy League is now better than the NEC. Case closed.

[ngineer]

The landscape is always changing in life, you either adapt and thrive or keep trying to do things the old way that doesn't work anymore. Somehow teams like Fordham and Harvard do well and they have the same constraints. Remember Coen has been at Lehigh or Penn since 93 or 94 I think. He is entrenched in doing things that have always been done there. It's a bit premature to call for his job, but some type of major overhaul is needed. No one is expecting Lehigh to morph into Ohio State, but as long as I've been familiar with Lehigh, losing hasn't been tolerated well.

Unfortunately, in today's world, people have short memories, and a what have you done for me lately mentality. Over the last 5 1/2 years, Lehigh's record is 45-20 for a winning percentage of .692. The great majority of people and teams would give their left nut for such a record. There are some growing pains across the board in the PL right now due to the scholarship transition. Injuries have magnified the major concern about the policy change--less bodies and depth. I agree that we should not be satisfied with the way the team has performed of late, but that is what occurs in college athletics. I think most PL schools will be giving their respective staffs some latitude while this transition occurs. There is a line between patience and ignorance. I do not think a rash move at this point warranted, though how the team performs for the balance of the season will determine the significance of adjustments.

[Neighbor2]

I agree, the Lehigh program's performance over the balance of this season will determine the extent of staff changes to make. Can't imagine a scenario in which leaving everyone on the staff in the same role will ever be a wise choice, however. I haven't read anyone demanding immediate removals during this season. It is not too early to discuss this topic now, though. But, the entire program needs a 'tune-up,' in the coming months, with the process starting NOW. The win over Bucknell showed some positive movement during the second half. That's something.

[UNHWildcat18]

I really thought the PL was going to be better this year but maybe next year they will be more competitive. The ivies really need to start playing in the playoffs so we can see how they stack up

[RichH2]

[/B]Unfortunately, in today's world, people have short memories, and a what have you done for me lately mentality. Over the last 5 1/2 years, Lehigh's record is 45-20 for a winning percentage of .692. The great majority of people and teams would give their left nut for such a record. There are some growing pains across the board in the PL right now due to the scholarship transition. Injuries have magnified the major concern about the policy change--less bodies and depth. I agree that we should not be satisfied with the way the team has performed of late, but that is what occurs in college athletics. I think most PL schools will be giving their respective staffs some latitude while this transition occurs. There is a line between patience and ignorance. I do not think a rash move at this point warranted, though how the team performs for the balance of the season will determine the significance of adjustments.
+1

[Lehigh'98]

They absolutely do not. Fordham had scholarships years before the rest. Harvard has every single player on its roster on "scholarship". Hence: performance against high Ivies are a poor barometer, effect of scholarships too early to tell in PL.

That's the thing though. Fordham didn't like the rules they were playing under, so they changed the rules. I agree, some patience is warranted, but if we can't get results in the current landscape, then we will need someone to apply some pressure to the powers that be or just settle for being mediocre. That someone is generally the head coach.

[Fordham]

Why do you have to wait a couple more years? There should not have been this big of a drop off as teams "transition" to scholarships. The scholarship players should have blended in with what should have been a quality merit base classes.

I disagree and think you're discounting a) the very real effect on team cohesion when part of the team is known as non-scholarship and a younger crew is on scholarship and b) I think many on here discount the effect of age and experience so they are unrealistically expecting more 18/19 y/o kids to have a greater impact than they are having. Give it another year or two for your PL squads (since there are always kids getting injured who will come back for a 5th year) and the base of your starters will tend to be 21 - 22y/o men who have been in the program, participating in college S&C program and been playing in the same system for several years ... versus the 18 y/o freshman who is really still a kid. There will be improvement v a need-based aid PL once your teams have mostly upperclassmen and 5th years starting and only a few really special freshmen & sophs getting playing time imo.

I said from the get-go that scholarships were not a panacea for the PL but they are clearly a better solution than the need-based aid model. It's simply access to the marketplace. With need-based aid you are trying to identify either really poor kids (who won't have to pay) or really wealthy kids who's families can pay (but even there it's difficult). That dramatically reduces your access to the marketplace of available players. Now our coaches can target who they want, which doesn't guarantee success but it does increase the odds. There is no question it is better than recruiting need-based.

I hate to deviate this thread in a potentially negative way but I do have to relate one nagging thought. Fordham's coaches (pre-Moorhead staff obviously since he has had scholarships the entire time) used to talk about how Lehigh got around the need-based restrictions by offering merit/leadership scholarships in a way that was clearly targeted simply at adding quality football players. This offering was not allowed by Fordham administration and I didn't hear them reference any other PL school doing this either. This came directly from former staffs (including HC) but it's still just hearsay. Just adding this nugget since I'm wondering if one of the reasons Lehigh isn't seeing much of a difference is because they've been closer to a scholarship football model all of these years than the rest of us? (fire away). I guess Rich and LFN are saying they are seeing a bump in quality so that would tend to negate or minimize what those previous staff's said.

[MR. CHICKEN]

I disagree and think you're discounting a) the very real effect on team cohesion when part of the team is known as non-scholarship and a younger crew is on scholarship and b) I think many on here discount the effect of age and experience so they are unrealistically expecting more 18/19 y/o kids to have a greater impact than they are having. Give it another year or two for your PL squads (since there are always kids getting injured who will come back for a 5th year) and the base of your starters will tend to be 21 - 22y/o men who have been in the program, participating in college S&C program and been playing in the same system for several years ... versus the 18 y/o freshman who is really still a kid. There will be improvement v a need-based aid PL once your teams have mostly upperclassmen and 5th years starting and only a few really special freshmen & sophs getting playing time imo.

I said from the get-go that scholarships were not a panacea for the PL but they are clearly a better solution than the need-based aid model. It's simply access to the marketplace. With need-based aid you are trying to identify either really poor kids (who won't have to pay) or really wealthy kids who's families can pay (but even there it's difficult). That dramatically reduces your access to the marketplace of available players. Now our coaches can target who they want, which doesn't guarantee success but it does increase the odds. There is no question it is better than recruiting need-based.

I hate to deviate this thread in a potentially negative way but I do have to relate one nagging thought. Fordham's coaches (pre-Moorhead staff obviously since he has had scholarships the entire time) used to talk about how Lehigh got around the need-based restrictions by offering merit/leadership scholarships in a way that was clearly targeted simply at adding quality football players. This offering was not allowed by Fordham administration and I didn't hear them reference any other PL school doing this either. This came directly from former staffs (including HC) but it's still just hearsay. Just adding this nugget since I'm wondering if one of the reasons Lehigh isn't seeing much of a difference is because they've been closer to a scholarship football model all of these years than the rest of us? (fire away). I guess Rich and LFN are saying they are seeing a bump in quality so that would tend to negate or minimize what those previous staff's said.

.....WHEN LEHIGH....WOOD ACTUALLY BEAT UD.....BRAG 'BOUT NON-SKOLLY W'S.....TUBBY ALWAYS SAID..."PELL GRANTS ARE SCHOLARSHIPS".............FIRE BRAWK!

[Lehigh'98]

I disagree and think you're discounting a) the very real effect on team cohesion when part of the team is known as non-scholarship and a younger crew is on scholarship and b) I think many on here discount the effect of age and experience so they are unrealistically expecting more 18/19 y/o kids to have a greater impact than they are having. Give it another year or two for your PL squads (since there are always kids getting injured who will come back for a 5th year) and the base of your starters will tend to be 21 - 22y/o men who have been in the program, participating in college S&C program and been playing in the same system for several years ... versus the 18 y/o freshman who is really still a kid. There will be improvement v a need-based aid PL once your teams have mostly upperclassmen and 5th years starting and only a few really special freshmen & sophs getting playing time imo.

I said from the get-go that scholarships were not a panacea for the PL but they are clearly a better solution than the need-based aid model. It's simply access to the marketplace. With need-based aid you are trying to identify either really poor kids (who won't have to pay) or really wealthy kids who's families can pay (but even there it's difficult). That dramatically reduces your access to the marketplace of available players. Now our coaches can target who they want, which doesn't guarantee success but it does increase the odds. There is no question it is better than recruiting need-based.

I hate to deviate this thread in a potentially negative way but I do have to relate one nagging thought. Fordham's coaches (pre-Moorhead staff obviously since he has had scholarships the entire time) used to talk about how Lehigh got around the need-based restrictions by offering merit/leadership scholarships in a way that was clearly targeted simply at adding quality football players. This offering was not allowed by Fordham administration and I didn't hear them reference any other PL school doing this either. This came directly from former staffs (including HC) but it's still just hearsay. Just adding this nugget since I'm wondering if one of the reasons Lehigh isn't seeing much of a difference is because they've been closer to a scholarship football model all of these years than the rest of us? (fire away). I guess Rich and LFN are saying they are seeing a bump in quality so that would tend to negate or minimize what those previous staff's said.

Rich and LFN are much closer to the recruiting classes than most on this board and there is a chance that the Fr and Soph classes have some gems that will develop with S&C. Pelletier is a stud. From what I have seen on the field vs. what I have seen and played with in years past, I'm not seeing it right now though. Now a couple good classes could change all this, but since we lost the DC, OC and some other key coaches, there seems to have been an overall dropoff in talent.

Hard to answer the first part of your claim as no one really knows what an individual's financial package was, but Lehigh and Colgate seemed to be doing something different than the rest of the league that was working. Could have been a combination of several factors, tough to say for sure.

[RichH2]

Fordham
Interesting tibit. Have no direct info one way or the other. I do know how the academic merit aid works. They are not full rides. They are administered outside of the admission and athletic recruiting process. Can a football player get one. Sure. Could coaches target recruits who might be great candidates for such an award?Yup. A fact of life that they are used by the university to recruit outstanding students. A bonus if that kid is a good athlete. There are not that many of them available each year. Even assuming football had some recruits qualify for these awards,it would not make a huge impact on recruiting. The implication that football could sidestep the merit awards process to get money for a kid who would not otherwise have gotten one is very unlikely. Academic recruiting is every bit as competitive as athletic. Football may be scored by stars,academics score by GPA,academic awards etc. LU boasts about their success in recruiting these outstanding students ,just not on Rivals or AGS :)

[Doc QB]

[/B]There are some growing pains across the board in the PL right now due to the scholarship transition.
[QUOTE=Go Lehigh TU owl;2266691]Why do you have to wait a couple more years? There should not have been this big of a drop off as teams "transition" to scholarships. The scholarship players should have blended in with what should have been a quality merit base classes.
[QUOTE]

I still dont get the 'transition' issue. You recruit athletes and coach them up. You have less restrictions than before, you land a few more playmakers. The league wide drop in success starts with the Head Coaches and is not because we have to learn how to recruit athletes we couldnt land before. Its the same coaches, same coaches' game plans with limited success, and the same coaches who maybe are not great evaluators of talent. The full tickets wont help any of that unless the coaches have the ability to identify/target better athletes and coach. The PL drop off is mere reflection of the HC deficiencies league wide, not what the IVY does, not how the NEC is catching up. Coen, Gimore, Tavani all overly 'tenured' guys...we see the evidence of their ability on the field. gate's Hunt is probably more of the same.

[4211LBLS]

The landscape is always changing in life, you either adapt and thrive or keep trying to do things the old way that doesn't work anymore. Somehow teams like Fordham and Harvard do well and they have the same constraints. Remember Coen has been at Lehigh or Penn since 93 or 94 I think. He is entrenched in doing things that have always been done there. It's a bit premature to call for his job, but some type of major overhaul is needed. No one is expecting Lehigh to morph into Ohio State, but as long as I've been familiar with Lehigh, losing hasn't been tolerated well.


Not true on Harvard. They have over 120 players getting some type of aid. PL teams cant touch that. They start 17 seniors and only have 1 freshman on the 2-deep. LC does even have 17 seniors, injured or not. Go check out Harvard's endowment and then tell me we're even.

[RichH2]

An absolute fact for HYP. Agree LBLS. Full schollie classes will merely put us closer to HYP.

[Franks Tanks]

Not true on Harvard. They have over 120 players getting some type of aid. PL teams cant touch that. They start 17 seniors and only have 1 freshman on the 2-deep. LC does even have 17 seniors, injured or not. Go check out Harvard's endowment and then tell me we're even.

Dude, you have an excuse for everything. We can't compete with the CAA because they redshirt. We can't compete with the Ivies because they give need based aid. Fact is this league competed much better with the CAA and Ivies 10 years ago than it does now. Fact is that the coaching stinks at several spots in the league.

As you note Lafayette has few seniors. That is squarely the fault of the coaching staff who has failed in recruiting and more precisely in developing players. Look no further than our QB who had regressed a ton since he was a Freshman. Our OC has been with the program for like 8 years and has yet to develop a single QB. Our current QB played 5 good games 2 years ago. We've only had very good QB play once in the OC's tenure, and that was Rob curly in 2009.

I feel for the kids who work gas and want to win desperately. Leadership and direction is poor, and they really have no chance. Why keep this staff around for another year of 3-8?

As Spurrier said after resigning, someone else deserves a chance to see what they can do!

[Lehigh'98]

An absolute fact for HYP. Agree LBLS. Full schollie classes will merely put us closer to HYP.

Yet we seemed to perform just fine against them from 95-2013.

[DFW HOYA]

Not true on Harvard. They have over 120 players getting some type of aid. PL teams cant touch that.

Why not?

Throw out that arcane roster cap rule and you could give 120 kids a half grant each = 60 equivalencies.

[aceinthehole]

Yet we seemed to perform just fine against them from 95-2013.

Not all of the Patriot League - just Lehigh.

1995-2013
Lehigh vs. Harvard: 6-4
Lafayette vs. Harvard: 2-11
Holy Cross vs. Harvard: 5-13

Lehigh vs. Yale: 5-3
Lafayette vs. Yale: 3-1
Holy Cross vs. Yale: 1-9

Lehigh vs. Princeton: 12-3
Lafayette vs. Princeton: 2-11
Holy Cross vs. Princeton: 2-0

Lehigh was 23-10 vs. H-Y-P
Lafayette was 7-23 vs. H-Y-P
Holy Cross was 8-22 vs. H-Y-P

[RichH2]

Yet we seemed to perform just fine against them from 95-2013.
98
I am referiing to the PL not just us.

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Yet we seemed to perform just fine against them from 95-2013.
98
I am referiing to the PL not just us.

[Lehigh'98]

98
I am referiing to the PL not just us.

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98
I am referiing to the PL not just us.

Ok, I was just talking about Lehigh. My fault. Interesting stats though, thanks Ace.

[4211LBLS]

Dude, you have an excuse for everything. We can't compete with the CAA because they redshirt. We can't compete with the Ivies because they give need based aid. Fact is this league competed much better with the CAA and Ivies 10 years ago than it does now. Fact is that the coaching stinks at several spots in the league.

As you note Lafayette has few seniors. That is squarely the fault of the coaching staff who has failed in recruiting and more precisely in developing players. Look no further than our QB who had regressed a ton since he was a Freshman. Our OC has been with the program for like 8 years and has yet to develop a single QB. Our current QB played 5 good games 2 years ago. We've only had very good QB play once in the OC's tenure, and that was Rob curly in 2009.

I feel for the kids who work gas and want to win desperately. Leadership and direction is poor, and they really have no chance. Why keep this staff around for another year of 3-8?

As Spurrier said after resigning, someone else deserves a chance to see what they can do!

Maybe the other conferences have improved. It is what it is. If you don't like the music get off the dance floor. CAA is competing for and winning national titles.

PL will grow and get more competitive. The PL will have their niche. Its a great conference. But it will be a while before they compete with the CAA. The linemen are not nearly as big and there is a huge speed gap. Just go look at the comments from your own president on where she sees LC athletics.

As to lack of seniors and that being the coaches fault, the coaches brought in over 20 players when these seniors were freshmen. Less than 10 are still there and not injured.

As to the coaching, sure, there are issues. But it doesn't stop there. Don't be so naïve.

[Bill]

Not trying to start a contest of academic snobbery here, but I think it's important to note that the PL will always have a smaller pool to recruit from (W&M and Richmond aside). The AI and academic standards make it tougher. I'm all for keeping the standards high - this is not a complaint, but rather a way of looking at it. The coaching staffs have to work harder to identify the kids who can get in and handle the workload - but that's their job. This is why we end up having more overlap with the Ivy's than the CAA overall. When you throw in H-Y-P's financial aid model, its even more fun :)

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Wait.
This, too, shall pass.
The sky has not fallen.
(fill in your own 'patience'-themed canard here)

[Lehigh'98]

Not trying to start a contest of academic snobbery here, but I think it's important to note that the PL will always have a smaller pool to recruit from (W&M and Richmond aside). The AI and academic standards make it tougher. I'm all for keeping the standards high - this is not a complaint, but rather a way of looking at it. The coaching staffs have to work harder to identify the kids who can get in and handle the workload - but that's their job. This is why we end up having more overlap with the Ivy's than the CAA overall. When you throw in H-Y-P's financial aid model, its even more fun :)

Our coaches always told us that academics were number one *holds up two fingers* and football number two *holds up one finger*. It's good they had our best interests in mind..

[Bill]

Yes! A certain coach who helps out at wake forest was famous for that one....