Lafayette Football "Isn't Fun Anymore"

[carney2]

Recently I was having a discussion with someone about Pard4Life’s comment that Lafayette football “isn’t fun anymore.” It then occurred to me that “anymore” assumes that at one time or another it actually was fun. I blurted out that the drought in Lafayette football is approaching the 70 year mark and counting. Can that be? Not possible. I put together some statistics using the arbitrary cut-off of 1950 as somehow the dividing point between “modern” football and the days of the leather helmet. So, here are some stats to get the discussion – and the venom - going:

1950-2014

Overall record = 301-353-11 (A winning percentage of 45.3%)

No of winning seasons = 25 (Out of 64 = 39.1%)

Most consecutive winning seasons in 64 years = 3 (3 times)

Most consecutive losing seasons in 64 years = 9

Most wins in a season = 9 (1981)

I’m pretty sure that if you leave out Georgetown who isn’t too serious about football anyway (cue the DFW rant), only Bucknell might rival this extended period of Patriot League pigskin ineptitude.

NOTE: I gave some thought as to whether this might enrage the folks on the Lafayette board, but since I’ve been drummed out of that fraternity anyway, … Facts are facts.

[crusader11]

Lafayette football had a pretty good run from 2002-2009. They were one of the better teams in the PL during this time, and I'm sure plenty of people were having fun at Fischer Field. 56-36 record with 3 PLCs.

But from 2010 on, it's been really bad. 1-4 this season, and in all four losses Lafayette has field to reach double digits in points scored.

[crusader11]

Also, what's with the departure from the Lafayette board, C2?

[DFW HOYA]

I’m pretty sure that if you leave out Georgetown who isn’t too serious about football anyway (cue the DFW rant), only Bucknell might rival this extended period of Patriot League pigskin ineptitude.
Since you asked...

Georgetown, 1950-2014

Overall record = 214-240-2 (A winning percentage of 47.1%, better than LC)

No of winning seasons = 23 (Out of 50 = 46.0% , better than LC)

Most consecutive winning seasons in 50 years = 6 , better than LC)

Most consecutive losing seasons in 50 years = 10, not as good)

Most wins in a season = 9 (1998,1999 same as LC)

[Franks Tanks]

I can't go back to before the Russo era since that is ancient history I cannot speak to with any confidence. Since 1980 we've had a few spurts of very good, but never great, and have had trouble maintaining much consistency. We had some really solid teams in the 80's and early 90's. Much like Holy Cross those teams would crush the teams we have today! Frank had it rolling for most of the 00's, but losing key assistants did him in.

I will agree that outside of a few euphoric moments (a few games in 2013 and 150), Lafayette football has been ugly to watch since 2010.

[Pard4Life]

Why it's not fun anymore:

- double digit blowouts and not looking like we belong on the field

- single digit scoring. Yawn.

- same mistakes, same excuses

- we now have scholarships and we look worse than 2012. The main reason we were bad was we did not have good players because aid was cut. Now? The jig is up.

- QB regresses each year

- expectations: we have to turn a corner at some point but it never happens

- half the stadium leave at half

- you know which games we wil win and which games we will lose in the preseason!

- the other PL teams sans one are just as bad

- the administration accepts it despite alumni efforts and money

- 150 was supposed to psyche up the program

- team folds when something goes wrong ie no show: some quote hinted as much in the Fordham game article

- Columbia, the worst team (ok maybe not Savanah State) gets a new coach and despite the same inept guys from a year ago, show fight and ability in each game.

- you are missing other great games on TV and can't change the channel at Fisher

- you are married to this thing and can't get off the train

[RichH2]

Perspective perhaps. I've been around our teams since the early 60s( the dawn of time according to my kids). Over the last 50 years ,Lehigh has had more success than Pards. The younger fans now get hyperbolic over 5-6 years. I vividly recall when we didn't win that many in 5 years. Just my perspective,not to diminish their disappointment with the last few years. Today both of us are going thru the growing pains of adapting to schollies. Agree with FT that some of those teams could beat the crap out of today's squads. Different world 15 yrs ago. No AI,roster cap. We had a great niche to get good players. Recruiting is not the same today.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is really going to put a damper on my upcoming book "The Rivalry: The Next 50 Years".

[Fordhamanhattan]

As one of the 700 or so that attended the Leopard-Ram fray last Saturday, a few comments. One. What a great place Fisher Field is! And the football house is quite impressive. The concession stands were also quite good with polite, charming folks behind the counters. Two, what a special place is the historic district in Easton. I felt like I was in Brooklyn Heights or Georgetown. The College is quite impressive with what appears to be a building for every ten of the 2,200 students. The only criticism I would have is that it appears to have been a new architectural theme with each new edifice, a veritable smorgasbord of design. I know it was a miserable weekend but there were no students! The Leopards lack speed! Coach Moorhead made it a recruiting priority so should the Leopards.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lafayette football will be fun this weekend.

[RichH2]

Big shoutout to DFW on $50M gift to Hoyas to finish football .facilities.

[superman7515]

Also, what's with the departure from the Lafayette board, C2?

I wasn't allowed in, so he's leaving in solidarity.

[superman7515]

Speak of the devil...


Lafayette football will be fun this weekend.

Surprised to see you back Bogie.

[carney2]

Lafayette football had a pretty good run from 2002-2009.

2002: 7-5
2003: 5-6
2004: 8-4
2005: 8-4
2006: 6-6
2007: 7-4
2008: 7-4
2009: 8-3

56-36

Not bad, as you say. FranksTanks says it ended because Tavani lost key assistants. Franks is a very knowledgeable observer of the Lafayette football scene, and what he says is correct. In my less reliable opinion however, a bigger key to the downfall was the administration's decision to reduce the football equivalencies by 25%-33%. The program has yet to recover from that. AND it shines light on a bigger problem at Lafayette: the powers that be do not just practice benign neglect (no increases to the football budget in something like 8 years), but they are intentionally destructive. I also point to Art Rothkopf's investigation of taking the program to D-3 16 or 17 years ago. In my opinion (again that word) each of the last two coaches was beaten down and drained of all incentive. Bill Russo hung on for years merely to cash a pay check. I increasingly get the impression that Tavani has entered that same twilight zone, although he does look truly crushed after some of these horrendous losses.

[superman7515]

How much longer does Tavani stick around? He's in his early 60's, so not exactly old by coaching standards, but (and this isn't meant as a shot at Lafayette) it looks like his best Leopard coaching days are behind him. He's about to have his sixth straight losing season and, from what I've heard from the fans, next year isn't exactly shaping up to be wine and roses.

[carney2]

How much longer does Tavani stick around?

His current contract expires at the end of the 2016 season. In reality he leaves on his schedule and his terms. BUT, one rumor has it that his "heart attack" of a year or two ago was a wake up call and he'll pack it in after 2016.

[Go...gate]

Speak of the devil...



Surprised to see you back Bogie.

Very happy to have him back!

[heath]

So pick your ball up,wipe your tears and go home to mamma, you whining spotted pusses.

[Pard4Life]

Winning is not necessarily the only thing that makes Lafayette football fun. In 2001, we won two games, but it was an exciting season because you felt we were building something and we kept games close. We scored points. So did the other guys. The PL was good.

Now... what is there to be excited about? Lehigh... a team that can't go five plays without a penalty or lapse?

We've only shown something in one game against a winless team. The Delaware game was a comedy of errors.

[Pard4Life]

So pick your ball up,wipe your tears and go home to mamma, you whining spotted pusses.

Have you finished wiping yours? Or did you leave your ball at 161st Street? (or the hotel... still waiting for Lehigh to show up!)

[Andy]

Tavani's first season with 4 recruiting classes of his players was 2004. PL championships since then:
(Including co-champs)

LU - 4
LC - 4
Gate - 3
FU - 2
HC - 1

LC was the best team in the league just 2 seasons ago, not mentioned by some.

As P4L mentioned, LC shot themselves in the foot with budget cuts for 2 seasons. (Weiss blamed the stock market crash). League records since the budget was restored '12 - '14:

Gate 11-5 1 championship
LC 9-7 1 championship
LU 9-7
BU 7-9
HC 5-11
GT 4-12

Comparing OOC Records is meaningless: some play W&M and Harvard while others play Monmouth and Cornell.

Next year LC plays Army, Delaware, Princeton, Villanova. Look for another of these threads from carney.

Losing sucks, no doubt. We've got plenty of company. Let's see how the rest of the PL schedule goes.

[superman7515]

Next year LC plays... Delaware... Look for another of these threads from carney.

And don't you ladies forget it and hide all week.

[Gangtackle11]

Nova plays the Leopards in '16 & '17. Looking forward to the series & hopefully you treat us better than Penn did this season. Ugh!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I also point to Art Rothkopf's investigation of taking the program to D-3 16 or 17 years ago. In my opinion (again that word) each of the last two coaches was beaten down and drained of all incentive. Bill Russo hung on for years merely to cash a pay check. I increasingly get the impression that Tavani has entered that same twilight zone, although he does look truly crushed after some of these horrendous losses.

That Rothkopf announcement game the week of Lehigh/Lafayette as well. What a slap in the face to the kids. I've always thought that disgraceful.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Nova plays the Leopards in '16 & '17. Looking forward to the series & hopefully you treat us better than Penn did this season. Ugh!

Penn always treats us like crap. But that's OK - we treat them like crap, so its a wash.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Next year LC plays Army, Delaware, Princeton, Villanova. Look for another of these threads from carney.

.

I didn't realize that Army plays Lafayette next year. I don't like looking at next year's schedule. Life flies too fast as it is and why borrow trouble?

[Sader87]

Holy Cross gave up much more than Lafayette when we joined the PL....quit your bitchin'

[Lehigh'98]

It's been said ad nauseum, but the PL minus Fordham is a clinic on how to lose football games. The league desperately needs some new blood, but it probably won't get it anytime soon because there's no urgency from the top. Sadly, besides a few diehards on message boards, no one notices much.

[4211LBLS]

Holy Cross gave up much more than Lafayette when we joined the PL....quit your bitchin'


Thank you. If these guys don't care they don't have to come around. They don't contribute anything to making the program better except to complain behind a screen name. Either get involved and make it better or shut up. Not only does the program not need these guys but neither do the players.

[Pard4Life]

Holy Cross gave up much more than Lafayette when we joined the PL....quit your bitchin'

AGS didn't exist in 1991 so we can't say... if HC basketball message boards of today are any measure: I'm sure the outcry here would have made Fox News look docile.

You coulda been in the Big East!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think a lot of what has been making Lafayette games less "fun" is declining attendance at games. And this is not something that is restricted to Lafayette.

Take all the games in the Lehigh Valley this past weekend. Non-Rivalry Lafayette and Lehigh games have never been Penn State-level events, but they have always had their cult followers and a significant number of fans who show up, rain or shine, to watch. But the number of fans that have given up this year is really concerning to me on both sides. Lafayette's night games are now attracting an ever-dwindling base of fans. On what was labeled "homecoming" Lehigh didn't even get 6,000 people in the stands and it wasn't even raining. Yes, we were competing with Penn State "losing" to Army. But that was a pathetic performance at the gate.

This past weekend:
Yale at Lehigh: 5,472 (and this was homecoming)
Fordham at Lafayette: 3,774 (this was against a ranked team and a Patriot League championship game)

These are, to put it mildly, atrocious numbers. And way, way off from two years ago.

2013, same types of games:
New Hampshire at Lehigh: 8,998 (nationally-ranked opponent on homecoming)
Fordham at Lafayette: 5,939 (later in November, but same things at stake, and Fordham was also ranked at that time)

In 2013, Lehigh was in the midst of a very successful September, but Lafayette was 3-6 going into that game and few gave the Leopards a chance at the Patriot League title that year. Even then they managed about 6,000 fans in the seats.

[Fordhamanhattan]

Having sat on the Fordham side at the Lafayette game, I was surprised at the size of the crowd and counted it. There were no more than 700-800 at the game despite what the attendance figure was. I guess attendance includes season tickets not bottoms in the seats.

[Franks Tanks]

I think a lot of what has been making Lafayette games less "fun" is declining attendance at games. And this is not something that is restricted to Lafayette.

Take all the games in the Lehigh Valley this past weekend. Non-Rivalry Lafayette and Lehigh games have never been Penn State-level events, but they have always had their cult followers and a significant number of fans who show up, rain or shine, to watch. But the number of fans that have given up this year is really concerning to me on both sides. Lafayette's night games are now attracting an ever-dwindling base of fans. On what was labeled "homecoming" Lehigh didn't even get 6,000 people in the stands and it wasn't even raining. Yes, we were competing with Penn State "losing" to Army. But that was a pathetic performance at the gate.

This past weekend:
Yale at Lehigh: 5,472 (and this was homecoming)
Fordham at Lafayette: 3,774 (this was against a ranked team and a Patriot League championship game)

These are, to put it mildly, atrocious numbers. And way, way off from two years ago.

2013, same types of games:
New Hampshire at Lehigh: 8,998 (nationally-ranked opponent on homecoming)
Fordham at Lafayette: 5,939 (later in November, but same things at stake, and Fordham was also ranked at that time)

In 2013, Lehigh was in the midst of a very successful September, but Lafayette was 3-6 going into that game and few gave the Leopards a chance at the Patriot League title that year. Even then they managed about 6,000 fans in the seats.

We had I believe 7,800 against W&M, and 9,100 for Princeton. The weather was ok, but enough for folks to stay home. The stadium experience at Fisher remains 1st rate, it is the product on the field that is the issue. It is not just losing, it is the way we have been losing that IMO has caused many to lose interest. Anybody that pays attention knew we had a very small chance to beat Fordham. After getting crushed in the 2 prior home games this year, I can't blame people for staying home when it was a bit chilly and windy.

[Pard4Life]

Thank you. If these guys don't care they don't have to come around. They don't contribute anything to making the program better except to complain behind a screen name. Either get involved and make it better or shut up. Not only does the program not need these guys but neither do the players.

Has Jack Bourger and others' millions in donations fixed the situation? No.

You need cooperation between donors and the admin, and the relationship there is not great.

Our presence here is obvious we care, and many of us have donated to support the program. Like I said this in and of itself does not change things.

And we've been over this a million times, this is America. Free speech. It's just about your interpretation of what is "correct and proper."

[Pard4Life]

I think a lot of what has been making Lafayette games less "fun" is declining attendance at games. And this is not something that is restricted to Lafayette.

Take all the games in the Lehigh Valley this past weekend. Non-Rivalry Lafayette and Lehigh games have never been Penn State-level events, but they have always had their cult followers and a significant number of fans who show up, rain or shine, to watch. But the number of fans that have given up this year is really concerning to me on both sides. Lafayette's night games are now attracting an ever-dwindling base of fans. On what was labeled "homecoming" Lehigh didn't even get 6,000 people in the stands and it wasn't even raining. Yes, we were competing with Penn State "losing" to Army. But that was a pathetic performance at the gate.

This past weekend:
Yale at Lehigh: 5,472 (and this was homecoming)
Fordham at Lafayette: 3,774 (this was against a ranked team and a Patriot League championship game)

These are, to put it mildly, atrocious numbers. And way, way off from two years ago.

2013, same types of games:
New Hampshire at Lehigh: 8,998 (nationally-ranked opponent on homecoming)
Fordham at Lafayette: 5,939 (later in November, but same things at stake, and Fordham was also ranked at that time)

In 2013, Lehigh was in the midst of a very successful September, but Lafayette was 3-6 going into that game and few gave the Leopards a chance at the Patriot League title that year. Even then they managed about 6,000 fans in the seats.

You have it backwards LFN: declining attendance is a symptom of the "less fun" problem.

Like FT said we had great crowds at at the first two home games. The third had terrible weather. I am not concerned about attendance and interest. When we win, fans show. We had 8800 show for a Colgate game in 2009 when it wasn't a special promotion or day. We had 10,000 for Penn and Liberty that year.

I don't know Lehigh's problem... you didn't get fans when you won recently

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You have it backwards LFN: declining attendance is a symptom of the "less fun" problem.

Like FT said we had great crowds at at the first two home games. The third had terrible weather. I am not concerned about attendance and interest. When we win, fans show. We had 8800 show for a Colgate game in 2009 when it wasn't a special promotion or day. We had 10,000 for Penn and Liberty that year.

I don't know Lehigh's problem... you didn't get fans when you won recently

Lehigh's decline you could maybe explain by "winning" because Lehigh was undefeated going into that game and UNH was a ranked team (and Lehigh I think was ranked too). But Lehigh was 2-2 going into homecoming - did a loss to Princeton really make that much difference? As for yours, Lafayette had losing records in both games and presumably had much the same boring offense as today.

You can blame part of the lower turnout on weather, but both games were more than 33% off from similar games of two years ago. That's an awful lot of fans.

Winning is fun. Fans being in the seats is fun. There are multiple components of fun, and those are two elements. But homecoming is also supposed to be fun, and somewhat resistant to the "winning" element of fun - there's lots of homecoming activities that are supposed to contribute to fun. Yet that didn't help Lehigh one bit this weekend. Playing against ranked opponents, especially when they're league foes with revenge plotlines, is supposed to be fun. But that didn't help this weekend.

[Andy]

I didn't realize that Army plays Lafayette next year. I don't like looking at next year's schedule. Life flies too fast as it is and why borrow trouble?

Hah! Very true, but the future scheds are right there in the game notes....:)

[Pards Rule]

We had I believe 7,800 against W&M, and 9,100 for Princeton. The weather was ok, but enough for folks to stay home. The stadium experience at Fisher remains 1st rate, it is the product on the field that is the issue. It is not just losing, it is the way we have been losing that IMO has caused many to lose interest. Anybody that pays attention knew we had a very small chance to beat Fordham. After getting crushed in the 2 prior home games this year, I can't blame people for staying home when it was a bit chilly and windy.


Yeah I punted Fordham based on what I saw at Fisher coming for the Princeton game. I rarely leave early but departed for the 2 hour drive back to Cherry Hill, NJ. I also went to Newark to watch the drenching Delaware contest. The only other games I plan to watch are Lehigh (at Lehigh) and....?? Maybe just that one. Give me a reason for a four hour round trip drive, especially a pain with a 6pm start. I already hit one deer on my way to the Lehigh game on Rt 29 in Kingwood Township, NJ in 2012.

[Pard4Life]

And this is coming from a guy who put on a trash bag... with trash in it... as a shawl to watch the Delaware game!

Too bad that deer wasn't a Mountain Hawk.

[Libertine]

2002: 7-5
2003: 5-6
2004: 8-4
2005: 8-4
2006: 6-6
2007: 7-4
2008: 7-4
2009: 8-3


The end of that timeline pretty much coincides with the massive budget cutbacks that Lafayette athletics faced following the 2008-2009 academic year. I've always attributed their fall-off to the vanished $$$.

[CHIP72]

Yeah I punted Fordham based on what I saw at Fisher coming for the Princeton game. I rarely leave early but departed for the 2 hour drive back to Cherry Hill, NJ. I also went to Newark to watch the drenching Delaware contest. The only other games I plan to watch are Lehigh (at Lehigh) and....?? Maybe just that one. Give me a reason for a four hour round trip drive, especially a pain with a 6pm start. I already hit one deer on my way to the Lehigh game on Rt 29 in Kingwood Township, NJ in 2012.

I don't blame PardsRule for passing on the Fordham game after watching the Princeton game (which I also attended). The Leopards' performance against the Tigers was U-G-L-Y and deserves all four capital letters.

In all honesty, I think LFN overstates the Penn State factor. Essentially all Penn State games have been televised in Pennsylvania for the last 10+ years, so it's not like having Penn State games on TV is all of a sudden a factor that has popped up in the last 2-3 years. Let's also keep in mind that most Lafayette (and Lehigh) games are also on TV or available for free live streaming; it is possible the same number of Lafayette fans are watching the Leopards games but an increasing number of them are watching from the comfort of their homes rather than at Fisher Stadium.

[Ivytalk]

Football isn't fun! It's work!xnonono2x

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

Other then the UNH Lafayette game thread has it ever been fun?

[Pard4Life]

Football isn't fun! It's work!xnonono2x

Thanks, Mr. Saban.

[Franks Tanks]

I don't blame PardsRule for passing on the Fordham game after watching the Princeton game (which I also attended). The Leopards' performance against the Tigers was U-G-L-Y and deserves all four capital letters.

In all honesty, I think LFN overstates the Penn State factor. Essentially all Penn State games have been televised in Pennsylvania for the last 10+ years, so it's not like having Penn State games on TV is all of a sudden a factor that has popped up in the last 2-3 years. Let's also keep in mind that most Lafayette (and Lehigh) games are also on TV or available for free live streaming; it is possible the same number of Lafayette fans are watching the Leopards games but an increasing number of them are watching from the comfort of their homes rather than at Fisher Stadium.

And both schools, especially Lafayette, need folks like you to attend games to have solid attendance. Lafayette has 2,400 students, we simply don't have enough students and alums to draw 8-10k per game from that demographic. We need local folks who just like football, and want to see a competitive game in a comfortable and family friendly atmosphere. When the weather is uncomfortable, and the football not all that competitive, attendance suffers quickly.

[Andy]

You can't make this stuff up. Where did the notion of "Lafayette declining attendance" come from? Take any PL member 2 game high attendance to date and all pale in comparison to LC's 16,800. Obviously if a member hasn't had homecoming yet they would be hurt. The week after homecoming attendance suffers. Also, weather forecasts as late as Thurs night for the LV called for rain and 20 mph winds at 6pm Sat. We went down but many at our Inn had cancelled.

PL Attendance:

Gate .....2988
.............7343

Lehigh ....6971
..............5472

LC........7647
..........9173
..........3774

HC ......9368
..........3841

Buck ...4519
...........2123

FU ......6586
...........8052
...........3471

[ngineer]

I think a lot of what has been making Lafayette games less "fun" is declining attendance at games. And this is not something that is restricted to Lafayette.

Take all the games in the Lehigh Valley this past weekend. Non-Rivalry Lafayette and Lehigh games have never been Penn State-level events, but they have always had their cult followers and a significant number of fans who show up, rain or shine, to watch. But the number of fans that have given up this year is really concerning to me on both sides. Lafayette's night games are now attracting an ever-dwindling base of fans. On what was labeled "homecoming" Lehigh didn't even get 6,000 people in the stands and it wasn't even raining. Yes, we were competing with Penn State "losing" to Army. But that was a pathetic performance at the gate.

This past weekend:
Yale at Lehigh: 5,472 (and this was homecoming)
Fordham at Lafayette: 3,774 (this was against a ranked team and a Patriot League championship game)

These are, to put it mildly, atrocious numbers. And way, way off from two years ago.

2013, same types of games:
New Hampshire at Lehigh: 8,998 (nationally-ranked opponent on homecoming)
Fordham at Lafayette: 5,939 (later in November, but same things at stake, and Fordham was also ranked at that time)

In 2013, Lehigh was in the midst of a very successful September, but Lafayette was 3-6 going into that game and few gave the Leopards a chance at the Patriot League title that year. Even then they managed about 6,000 fans in the seats.

While attendance was disappointing, the weather forecast, I think, I had a big impact. People making plans a week or several days in advance saw a hurricane likely coming up the coast. It didn't strike, but the rain and cold arrived two days prior to game time and hung around. It was a 'raw' day, and not very nice. I had to leave at halftime due to a wedding, but I estimated actual people in the stands at 3,000. Lehigh's figures must be tickets sold. Yale only had less than 100 in the East stands. Granted, coming off a 'scintillating' win at Princeton may have drawn a few more people. But who want to be miserable outside when one can watch on TV. To me, I would like to see to correlation of putting all these games on tv/computer and the drop in attendance.

[BisonFan02]

Lafayette better make it fun this weekend...I picked the Pards to beat Georgetown in my Bisonville Pick em!

[Gate83]

Joe Benigno on WFAN in NY today, doing a promo for Army football:

"Come on up to West Point for the Cadets vs Duke and Bucknell! What's Bucknell's nickname? The Leopards? No, I think that's Lehigh!"

A 3 fer 1! No wonder there's no attendance, nobody can tell 'em apart!

[melloware13]

I haven't been home to watch my listings on a Saturday, but do either LC or LU have home games on WFMZ? I feel like when I was in high school (late 2000's) I could watch them, and there was a BECAHI game at Goodman for some reason one day.

[PAllen]

It's been said ad nauseum, but the PL minus Fordham is a clinic on how to lose football games. The league desperately needs some new blood, but it probably won't get it anytime soon because there's no urgency from the top. Sadly, besides a few diehards on message boards, no one notices much.

I gotta disagree on this one. People around the Lehigh Valley notice. I have a decent bit of family in the Lehigh Valley and they took notice when Lehigh was winning (late 90s through 2010). Some even started to go to a few games a year. TV helped this happen as they would decide to go and check out a game if the weather was nice after watching games on TV. None of these relatives came close to going to college, and all had adopted Lehigh as their school to cheer for. Then Lehigh tanked, it wasn't enjoyable to watch for them anymore, so they found other things to do with their Saturday afternoons. They were pretty much the definition of fair weather fans, but they were fans who after years of no interest, decided to go check out LU football. They started to get hooked, then lost interest, and in all honesty, probably won't be back. Now, they just make jokes about how bad Lehigh is at football.

[Pard4Life]

You can't make this stuff up. Where did the notion of "Lafayette declining attendance" come from? Take any PL member 2 game high attendance to date and all pale in comparison to LC's 16,800. Obviously if a member hasn't had homecoming yet they would be hurt. The week after homecoming attendance suffers. Also, weather forecasts as late as Thurs night for the LV called for rain and 20 mph winds at 6pm Sat. We went down but many at our Inn had cancelled.

PL Attendance:

Gate .....2988
.............7343

Lehigh ....6971
..............5472

LC........7647
..........9173
..........3774

HC ......9368
..........3841

Buck ...4519
...........2123

FU ......6586
...........8052
...........3471

LFN's theories. Our attendance is what you'd expect it to be. Maybe a few thousand more annually if we were winning but that's normal. Look at attendance now vs old Fisher. Now, a "bad" game is 5500. In old Fisher days, it was 4000.

[KPSUL]

What do you mean Lafayette football isn't fun anymore? I had a lot of fun at the UNH game November 30, 2013.

By the way, you PL guys are slipping; there hasn't been a post to the greatest AGS thread of all time for so long, I stopped looking for after page ten.

[Sader87]

Poor attendance is pretty much wide-spread throughout both FBS and FCS today sadly.

Starting to become resigned to the notion that it's never coming back.

10K used to be a "bad number" at Holy Cross until the early 1990s (and I'm not blaming the PL for this....entirely anyway :))....now I think 10K is about the ceiling for games at Fitton, as it stands now anyway.

[Pard4Life]

The solution is alcohol sales.

Imagine that at Lehigh? They would have to borrow the Eagles jail judiciary infrastructure for home games. The filth from the parking lot would migrate inside.

[DFW HOYA]

The solution is alcohol sales.


The solution is scheduling nearby opponents. Not a lot of sales to tickets from fans 500 miles away.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You can't make this stuff up. Where did the notion of "Lafayette declining attendance" come from?

PL Attendance:


LC........7647
..........9173
..........3774



Seems like you answered your own question.

[Bogus Megapardus]

What do you mean Lafayette football isn't fun anymore? I had a lot of fun at the UNH game November 30, 2013.

By the way, you PL guys are slipping; there hasn't been a post to the greatest AGS thread of all time for so long, I stopped looking for after page ten.

Any UNH or Lafayette poster may resurrect the thread at any time.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?148314-Lafayette-at-New-Hampshire/

[Fordham]

How about the fact that you can pretty much watch every game now at home, either via TV or the internets? I don't think there's any question that comes into a play when you have weather like what was expected for last Saturday.

[2ram]

How about the fact that you can pretty much watch every game now at home, either via TV or the internets? I don't think there's any question that comes into a play when you have weather like what was expected for last Saturday.

so true. the PL network livestream is a double-edged sword.

[Pard4Life]

Seems like you answered your own question.

I would classify declining attendance as noticeably fewer fans over the years of winning football and good weather games. LFN is basing his theory on one October weekend of 47 degree weather.

[Pard4Life]

The solution is scheduling nearby opponents. Not a lot of sales to tickets from fans 500 miles away.

When has Lafayette ever done this? Davidson? Maybe Maine?

You hardly get any ticket sales from Bucknell fans or Princeton.

The solution is WIN.

[jsnow84]

Could be worse, you could be a VMI fan. :)

[Bogus Megapardus]

So true. the PL network livestream is a double-edged sword.

Lafayette has been broadcasting and streaming all of its football games for the last 15 years. If anything it has caused attendance and interest in the program to increase. It seems to me that, at Lafayette in any event, there are three principal factors to keeping home attendance up near or around the 10k mark (which seems to be our unofficial benchmark) - (1) Winning, (2) Quality Opponents and (3) Winning.

[RichH2]

Gotta admit ,altho I still buy season tickets, dont go nearly as often with PL network.

[Southsider]

Heard a rumor that LU-Bucky on XM radio on Sat?? Have to drive from OBX to Wilmington NC for wedding. That would make for a better ride (I think). Can anyone confirm? What channel?? Thanks

[RichH2]

Heard a rumor that LU-Bucky on XM radio on Sat?? Have to drive from OBX to Wilmington NC for wedding. That would make for a better ride (I think). Can anyone confirm? What channel?? Thanks
Yes,ch 205

[Southsider]

Great. Thanks Rich. Hopefully it will be worth listening to...........(I know my wife sure hopes so):)

[CHIP72]

I haven't been home to watch my listings on a Saturday, but do either LC or LU have home games on WFMZ? I feel like when I was in high school (late 2000's) I could watch them, and there was a BECAHI game at Goodman for some reason one day.

Lafayette's home games (and some nearby road games) are typically televised on WBPH (Channel 60 in Bethlehem), RCN Cable Channel 4, and are available for streaming on ESPN3.

Lehigh's home games are typically televised on Service Electric Cable Channel 2. Their game against Lafayette, regardless if it is in Bethlehem or Easton, is usually televised by WFMZ Channel 69.

Incidentally, it is possible the Bethlehem Catholic game was a PIAA playoff game, though I think PIAA playoff games are usually played in large high school stadiums (like J. Birney Crum Stadium in Allentown or Bethlehem Area School District Stadium in Bethlehem), at least before the state championship game.

[carney2]

Lafayette's home games (and some nearby road games) are typically televised on WBPH (Channel 60 in Bethlehem), RCN Cable Channel 4, and are available for streaming on ESPN3.

Lehigh's home games are typically televised on Service Electric Cable Channel 2. Their game against Lafayette, regardless if it is in Bethlehem or Easton, is usually televised by WFMZ Channel 69.

Incidentally, it is possible the Bethlehem Catholic game was a PIAA playoff game, though I think PIAA playoff games are usually played in large high school stadiums (like J. Birney Crum Stadium in Allentown or Bethlehem Area School District Stadium in Bethlehem), at least before the state championship game.

I also recall attending a PIAA Playoff game at Badman. I think it was Berwick and Allentown Central Catholic.

[ngineer]

How about the fact that you can pretty much watch every game now at home, either via TV or the internets? I don't think there's any question that comes into a play when you have weather like what was expected for last Saturday.

I mentioned this on our Forum and elsewhere, here. I really think this has cut into attendance by taking the 'casual' fan away. As noted by PAllen, above, he had a number of family members attending. While the product may have slipped. at the same time, if there is a questionable forecast for rain or cold, the casual fan without any real ties will not put up with "the elements". It's a nice time at Goodman on a Saturday afternoon, but peole aint' going if their going to be uncomfortable AND they don't have any real allegiance.

[ngineer]

Lafayette's home games (and some nearby road games) are typically televised on WBPH (Channel 60 in Bethlehem), RCN Cable Channel 4, and are available for streaming on ESPN3.

Lehigh's home games are typically televised on Service Electric Cable Channel 2. Their game against Lafayette, regardless if it is in Bethlehem or Easton, is usually televised by WFMZ Channel 69.

Incidentally, it is possible the Bethlehem Catholic game was a PIAA playoff game, though I think PIAA playoff games are usually played in large high school stadiums (like J. Birney Crum Stadium in Allentown or Bethlehem Area School District Stadium in Bethlehem), at least before the state championship game.

Yes, I think Allentown Central Catholic played Berwick at Goodman a good number of years ago.

[Pard4Life]

Much rather would be at the game because you can't see the entire field on TV and the feed quality goes out. Nothing more aggravating than a key third down and a tie game and the feed goes down or gets grainy.

Only times I've said "I'm watching this game online" were a hurricane at Marist (and there really were zero fans there plus Marist was bad) and the halftime postponement at Delaware.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes, I think Allentown Central Catholic played Berwick at Goodman a good number of years ago.

They may have. I do recall that CB West played Bechai at Goodman in I think 99, and they nearly sold the place out. It was when both schools were still major powers.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

They may have. I do recall that CB West played Bechai at Goodman in I think 99, and they nearly sold the place out. It was when both schools were still major powers.

It was 1999. I was at that game. It was the week after my high school lost to CB West in Wilkes-Barre. Becca actually outplayed CB West in that game. Eddie Sippio was the Hawks really good running back iirc.

We lost to CB West the previous year down at Council Rock too. Damn Dustin Picciotti.

CB West was ranked #4 or #5 in the country at that time iirc....

Easton had an epic game against CB West at Goodman in 1991 or 1992. Juan Gaddy! Goodman played host to several AAAA and AAA Eastern Finals.

I remember some monster high school games in the Lehigh Valley when I was a kid. I can still recall watching Berwick in the late 80's, early 90's against someone at BASD Stadium. I'm not positive if Powlus was the QB at that time. Becca and ACC had a game when Kendra was there that drew something like 17-18k that BASD Stadium....

[Bogus Megapardus]

a hurricane at Marist (and there really were zero fans there plus Marist was bad)

Believe it or not I was in Poughkeepsie for that hurricane game at Marist, with my daughter. We left at the half and I think we were the last fans to leave.

[Andy]

Seems like you answered your own question.

so, you look at these numbers:


PL Attendance:

Gate .....2988
.............7343

Lehigh ....6971
..............5472

LC........7647
..........9173
..........3774

HC ......9368
..........3841

Buck ...4519
...........2123

FU ......6586
...........8052
...........3471

and your takeaway is that "Lafayette's attendance is declining." Seriously?

[Pards Rule]

Lafayette better make it fun this weekend...I picked the Pards to beat Georgetown in my Bisonville Pick em!


Thank you! From a Pard who went to Fargo in 2011 to watch Lafayette play in 2011. I need to return!

[Go Green]

so true. the PL network livestream is a double-edged sword.

Ditto for the Ivy.

I used to make the drive to Princeton and Penn whenever Dartmouth visited. Haven't done that in years thanks to 1) kids and 2) the Ivy Digital Network and/or television.

[carney2]

A lot of fun today in DC.

[ngineer]

A lot of fun today in DC.

Would not want to be on the bus ride back with the Frankasaurus.

[Pard4Life]

Would not want to be on the bus ride back with the Frankasaurus.

How can it be that bad when you don't care anymore and your coach is tired?

[Lehigh'98]

Georgetown has a legitimate chance to finish 2nd or 3rd in the league this year. That's where we are at at the moment. Let that sink in.

[Twentysix]

Recently I was having a discussion with someone about Pard4Life’s comment that Lafayette football “isn’t fun anymore.” It then occurred to me that “anymore” assumes that at one time or another it actually was fun. I blurted out that the drought in Lafayette football is approaching the 70 year mark and counting. Can that be? Not possible. I put together some statistics using the arbitrary cut-off of 1950 as somehow the dividing point between “modern” football and the days of the leather helmet. So, here are some stats to get the discussion – and the venom - going:

1950-2014

Overall record = 301-353-11 (A winning percentage of 45.3%)

No of winning seasons = 25 (Out of 64 = 39.1%)

Most consecutive winning seasons in 64 years = 3 (3 times)

Most consecutive losing seasons in 64 years = 9

Most wins in a season = 9 (1981)

I’m pretty sure that if you leave out Georgetown who isn’t too serious about football anyway (cue the DFW rant), only Bucknell might rival this extended period of Patriot League pigskin ineptitude.

NOTE: I gave some thought as to whether this might enrage the folks on the Lafayette board, but since I’ve been drummed out of that fraternity anyway, … Facts are facts.

Define winning season? .500? or .501+?

[Engineer86]

Define winning season? .500? or .501+?

Pin the Patriot League we have redefined it as >.350 xrotatehxxsmhxxconfusedx:(xrotatehx

[carney2]

Define winning season? .500? or .501+?

Really? 5-5 is NOT a winning season. i.e., .500 is NOT a winning season

6-5 is a winning season. At most schools it would be a disaster. At some schools it would be cause for firing the coach. At Lafayette it's the impossible dream.

[carney2]

There are two, and only two, possible outcomes at the end of this 1-10 or maybe 2-9 season:

1. Frank admits to himself that he isn't having fun either and resigns.

or

2. We get more of the same people doing the same things and expecting different results.

[DFW HOYA]

There are two, and only two, possible outcomes at the end of this 1-10 or maybe 2-9 season:

1. Frank admits to himself that he isn't having fun either and resigns.
or
2. We get more of the same people doing the same things and expecting different results.

Or
3. The Leopards finish 2-9 but upend Lehigh in #151, and the college takes a mulligan on the 2015 season.

The Leopards' problem in 2015 isn't coaching but depth. No scholarship team that rushes for nine yards against a nonscholarship team can have much faith in its running game.

[carney2]

Or
3. The Leopards finish 2-9 but upend Lehigh in #151, and the college takes a mulligan on the 2015 season.

Turning Fisher over to cash crops is looking better and better as an option. It is criminal that Bourger, Fisher, et al. spent all that money and then gave the key to a bunch of incompetent clowns.

[ngineer]

Frank said in the paper today that he's in the mood for some 'drastic measures'. Doesn't indicate where those measures might be taken, but said he's done it in the past. I wasn't at all shocked to see Georgetown win, but was at the manner of dominance the Hoyas apparently had. I had picked the Hoyas 20-18 on my 'card' that I do each week with my wife. There is a lot of topsy-turvy stuff going on in FCS. Note the surprising "upsets" in the CAA, BSC. Liberty is an enigma and then we have new rising stars in Chattanooga, Portland State, Coastal, and JSU while some of the traditional powers are scuffling. It's what makes college football so much more interesting than pro.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Or
3. The Leopards finish 2-9 but upend Lehigh in #151, and the college takes a mulligan on the 2015 season.

My brain refuses to process this possibility

[Ivytalk]

Frank said in the paper today that he's in the mood for some 'drastic measures'. Doesn't indicate where those measures might be taken, but said he's done it in the past. I wasn't at all shocked to see Georgetown win, but was at the manner of dominance the Hoyas apparently had. I had picked the Hoyas 20-18 on my 'card' that I do each week with my wife. There is a lot of topsy-turvy stuff going on in FCS. Note the surprising "upsets" in the CAA, BSC. Liberty is an enigma and then we have new rising stars in Chattanooga, Portland State, Coastal, and JSU while some of the traditional powers are scuffling. It's what makes college football so much more interesting than pro.
Hey, ng, off topic here, but what exactly is the "breast" of Old South Mountain?xchinscratchx

[Pards Rule]

Would not want to be on the bus ride back with the Frankasaurus.

Yeah I was thinking last evening that must be one LOOOOONG bus ride back to Easton!

[Pards Rule]

Frank said in the paper today that he's in the mood for some 'drastic measures'. Doesn't indicate where those measures might be taken, but said he's done it in the past. I wasn't at all shocked to see Georgetown win, but was at the manner of dominance the Hoyas apparently had. I had picked the Hoyas 20-18 on my 'card' that I do each week with my wife. There is a lot of topsy-turvy stuff going on in FCS. Note the surprising "upsets" in the CAA, BSC. Liberty is an enigma and then we have new rising stars in Chattanooga, Portland State, Coastal, and JSU while some of the traditional powers are scuffling. It's what makes college football so much more interesting than pro.


What start with the third stringer at QB? Im not sure I know who that is. Help! (as Billy C used to bellow as Sixers coach!) What possibly could be drastic measures with the personnel given? Ngineer Im impressed your wife is involved in the picks! Whats her record?

[carney2]

What start with the third stringer at QB? Im not sure I know who that is. Help! (as Billy C used to bellow as Sixers coach!) What possibly could be drastic measures with the personnel given? Ngineer Im impressed your wife is involved in the picks! Whats her record?

In the first place QB is not the problem (actually EVERYTHING'S the problem, so ...), but Frank doesn't have a lot of options so what the he!!. Don't know why you skipped over the second stringer, but no. 3 is sophomore Josh Davis from San Juan Capistrano, CA. Folks on the Lafayette board have taken to calling him Sunshine after the character in "Remember the Titans." He came in as a 2-star recruit and has yet to get himself more than a bare grass stain on his uniform. Raw and untested does not seem to be a strategy to emerge from this cesspool.

The folks who are in the know still claim injuries are the primary problem. They are probably correct since, for example, Frank had to switch 215 lb. fullback to the DL just to get through the Georgetown game, and a DL to OL to cover Lafayette's perpetual black hole. Stiil, these guys got blown out by the League's only non-scholarship program. Cannot deny that the Hoyas will win some of these, particularly when the opponent is in total disarray. But, a blowout, ...?

[ngineer]

What start with the third stringer at QB? Im not sure I know who that is. Help! (as Billy C used to bellow as Sixers coach!) What possibly could be drastic measures with the personnel given? Ngineer Im impressed your wife is involved in the picks! Whats her record?

We have been doing this since 1981 when a guy who shared an office with me moved as we had always had weekly contests. She felt sorry for me so to humor me in showing that someone who knows nothing will still be correct over half the time, and she's right. We do about 36 games a week, all college: the PL, a smattering of other FCS and usual factory conferences. To date, she is 126-91 for a .581 pct. I am 165-52 for .760. Last year she was 289-216 .573 and I was 362-143 for .717. In the 34 years we have been 'doing it' her average (without going to look it up) is over .560 and I am around .720. It's become a grand family tradition. Our kids, both long out of the nest, still inquire as to 'who is winning da' picks'? By now, I am sure you are sorry you asked!

My wife has a system: She always picks the school with "State" in it or "Tech". If both schools have it, she goes with her woman's intuition. She always goes with God: Notre Dame, Holy Cross (even when they play Lehigh), and BYU. She has a few "favorites" because of their names: Auburn, Clemson, and Purdue (because she likes chicken), and Army because her Dad was in the Army. With this elaborate system she does, on average, beat me one to two times a year! I know too much....

[ngineer]

Hey, ng, off topic here, but what exactly is the "breast" of Old South Mountain?xchinscratchx

Since coeducation, I'd say a C cup.

[Pards Rule]

What start with the third stringer at QB? Im not sure I know who that is. Help! (as Billy C used to bellow as Sixers coach!) What possibly could be drastic measures with the personnel given? Ngineer Im impressed your wife is involved in the picks! Whats her record?

We have been doing this since 1981 when a guy who shared an office with me moved as we had always had weekly contests. She felt sorry for me so to humor me in showing that someone who knows nothing will still be correct over half the time, and she's right. We do about 36 games a week, all college: the PL, a smattering of other FCS and usual factory conferences. To date, she is 126-91 for a .581 pct. I am 165-52 for .760. Last year she was 289-216 .573 and I was 362-143 for .717. In the 34 years we have been 'doing it' her average (without going to look it up) is over .560 and I am around .720. It's become a grand family tradition. Our kids, both long out of the nest, still inquire as to 'who is winning da' picks'? By now, I am sure you are sorry you asked!

My wife has a system: She always picks the school with "State" in it or "Tech". If both schools have it, she goes with her woman's intuition. She always goes with God: Notre Dame, Holy Cross (even when they play Lehigh), and BYU. She has a few "favorites" because of their names: Auburn, Clemson, and Purdue (because she likes chicken), and Army because her Dad was in the Army. With this elaborate system she does, on average, beat me one to two times a year! I know too much....

Wow! Im most sure she would beat me!!

[Catsfan90]

How is it not fun? They have been playing UNH for about two years now. How is that not fun?

[crusader11]

Just read this quote from Tavani:

[The players will] tell you I have my moments, but I also have learned to keep under control. It only took 62 years and a heart attack. These things aren't easy any level. … You gotta believe, knowing me, this is eatin' away at me. But, we will find a way."

This has got to be his last season coaching Lafayette, right? I mean, is Lafayette football literally going to kill, Tavani?

[Pards Rule]

Just read this quote from Tavani:

[The players will] tell you I have my moments, but I also have learned to keep under control. It only took 62 years and a heart attack. These things aren't easy any level. … You gotta believe, knowing me, this is eatin' away at me. But, we will find a way."

This has got to be his last season coaching Lafayette, right? I mean, is Lafayette football literally going to kill, Tavani?

If not him, then me, Bogus, Carney, Andy P4L, etc and so on

[heath]

Trox time by Jan?

[Bogus Megapardus]

On the Breast of Old South Mountain
Hey, ng, off topic here, but what exactly is the "breast" of Old South Mountain?
Since coeducation, I'd say a C cup.

And that's before they have the work done. http://herohog.com/images/icons/smileys/boobs.gif

[Bogus Megapardus]

Trox time by Jan?

Four winning seasons at DIII F&M. Is he really the guy?

[carney2]

Four winning seasons at DIII F&M. Is he really the guy?

I have faith that when the time comes, McCutcheon will screw it up.

[superman7515]

I hear Sarkisian is available.

How about Mike Drass from Wesley? Over 200 wins now (#67 all time in the NCAA) and a .786 win pct (#6 all time of coaches with 200+ wins).

[crusader11]

Tim Cramsey would be a great candidate. (http://www.msubobcats.com/coaches.aspx?rc=434)

CC: Franks Tanks

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Marcus Satterfield - Temple offensive coordinator. Before he came to Temple he was Chattanooga's offensive coordinator. Prior to that he was at UT-Martin, Western Carolina and Richmond. He played for ETSU. This guy knows FCS football as well as recruiting in the Northeast. He has a similar profile imo to Joe Moorhead. Satterfield will be a head coach before too long. Lehigh or Lafayette would be great landing spots. As would Delaware....

http://owlsports.com/coaches.aspx?rc=1398&path=football

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Tim Cramsey would be a great candidate. (http://www.msubobcats.com/coaches.aspx?rc=434)

CC: Franks Tanks

I met Cramsey when Coach Ash brought the coaching staff to Black Bull Golf Club in Bozeman. Bozeman is a tough place to leave when you're making good money....

[Southsider]

In the case of both LU & LC, I'd prefer someone w/o any ties to the schools or the area. Someone who is hungry, and knows he won't get any slack from the locals/alums.

[Fordham]

Marcus Satterfield - Temple offensive coordinator. Before he came to Temple he was Chattanooga's offensive coordinator. Prior to that he was at UT-Martin, Western Carolina and Richmond. He played for ETSU. This guy knows FCS football as well as recruiting in the Northeast. He has a similar profile imo to Joe Moorhead. Satterfield will be a head coach before too long. Lehigh or Lafayette would be great landing spots. As would Delaware....

http://owlsports.com/coaches.aspx?rc=1398&path=football

great find and agreed

[Neighbor2]

Change at both Lafayette and Lehigh? I could enjoy a 'Battle of New Staff' over the next few years. But, which school is more likely to pay staff better?

[Bill]

I'd like to nominate former Lehigh DC Shannon Morrison for the next head coach. I know he was at Lehigh briefly...but I believe he could do a great job here.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In the case of both LU & LC, I'd prefer someone w/o any ties to the schools or the area. Someone who is hungry, and knows he won't get any slack from the locals/alums.

Typed without irony as if he's not, in reality, one of these said alums.

[carney2]

WHAT A PILE OF CRAP!!!!!

Some of you people just mumble and stammer as if you have something to say. One more time - and this time memorize it:

Losing football games does not and will not cost the football coach his job at Lafayette. Even losses to Lehigh will not cause the ejection seat to be activated.

Frank Tavani is in about as much "trouble" at Lafayette as Bill Gates is at Microsoft (if he were still head of Microsoft). He has a lifetime contract. And Frank determines what is a "lifetime." If he decides to renew next year after the current contract expires, the renewal is his.

Winning is not part of a coach's job performance evaluation at Lafayette. Frank graduates his players, steers clear of scandal and bad press, plays the politically correct game, and does not bad mouth the College or the administration when he is denied resources. In short, he is a good and reliable soldier doing a job that not many in power care anything about.

If Frank Tavani's tenure as football coach comes to an end this year, next year, or in 10 years, you are absotively guaranteed that it will be his decision and not the result of pressure from anyone.

No one from Lafayette should have to say this again. With the exception of Lehigh posters, you are intelligent people and should be able to read and retain.

[Sader87]

So is Tavani going to get fired?

[carney2]

So is Tavani going to get fired?

The day after Holy Cross joins the Big East.

[DFW HOYA]

Considering that Lafayette played in the largest non H-Y crowd in I-AA Eastern football just last season, suggesting it's no longer fun reads like sour grapes. Things will get better.

Talk to some folks at Davidson College about what "fun" is, week after week. Davidson's last win over a Division I team was in 2012. Since 2001, it's won exactly one out-of-conference game against a Division I team. And there's no Coke Zone or Bourger House at aging Richardson Field, either.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/stadia-davidson.jpg

[Sader87]

lol....touche....Jesus God, what a miserable collection of fans we are in this league....xbangx

[carney2]

lol....touche....Jesus God, what a miserable collection of fans we are in this league....xbangx

We were not born this way. It has been thrust upon us.

And, PS: I believe that Tavani and McCutcheon at Lafayette have the equivalent of academic tenure. Absurd but true.

[heath]

May not be fun but Lafayette now has 3 threads ALL at once on the main page.....I envy you guys

[Go...gate]

Considering that Lafayette played in the largest non H-Y crowd in I-AA Eastern football just last season, suggesting it's no longer fun reads like sour grapes. Things will get better.

Talk to some folks at Davidson College about what "fun" is, week after week. Davidson's last win over a Division I team was in 2012. Since 2001, it's won exactly one out-of-conference game against a Division I team. And there's no Coke Zone or Bourger House at aging Richardson Field, either.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/stadia-davidson.jpg

Always liked Richardson Field and the rest of the Davidson campus.

[ngineer]

WHAT A PILE OF CRAP!!!!!

Some of you people just mumble and stammer as if you have something to say. One more time - and this time memorize it:

Losing football games does not and will not cost the football coach his job at Lafayette. Even losses to Lehigh will not cause the ejection seat to be activated.

Frank Tavani is in about as much "trouble" at Lafayette as Bill Gates is at Microsoft (if he were still head of Microsoft). He has a lifetime contract. And Frank determines what is a "lifetime." If he decides to renew next year after the current contract expires, the renewal is his.

Winning is not part of a coach's job performance evaluation at Lafayette. Frank graduates his players, steers clear of scandal and bad press, plays the politically correct game, and does not bad mouth the College or the administration when he is denied resources. In short, he is a good and reliable soldier doing a job that not many in power care anything about.

If Frank Tavani's tenure as football coach comes to an end this year, next year, or in 10 years, you are absotively guaranteed that it will be his decision and not the result of pressure from anyone.

No one from Lafayette should have to say this again. With the exception of Lehigh posters, you are intelligent people and should be able to read and retain.

Hey, Carney, I've been saying the same thing for years...

[Pard4Life]

Lafayette last dismissed a football coach in 1980.

[ngineer]

Lafayette last dismissed a football coach in 1980.

Was that the guy who followed Gamble. Harry recruited me back in 1969, but I had some inside information that his name was already being considered at Penn, which had some, but not critical impact on my decision. The guy who followed him, I think had come from Miami, O., but cannot recall the name at this time and hour, but I think he had a lot of .500 or sub .500 seasons...and of course a heck of along losing streak against LU from 1971-1980 when I think LC won only one game (1976?).

[Pard4Life]

Was that the guy who followed Gamble. Harry recruited me back in 1969, but I had some inside information that his name was already being considered at Penn, which had some, but not critical impact on my decision. The guy who followed him, I think had come from Miami, O., but cannot recall the name at this time and hour, but I think he had a lot of .500 or sub .500 seasons...and of course a heck of along losing streak against LU from 1971-1980 when I think LC won only one game (1976?).

Yes Neil Putnam

[ngineer]

Yes Neil Putnam

Bingo. I remember meeting him and thinking he was very 'bland'. Nice guy, but ethereal maybe the word. Other than coming from "The cradle of coaches" I never saw what LC saw in him.

[Pards Rule]

Four winning seasons at DIII F&M. Is he really the guy?

Russo had only 3 winning seasons at Wagner before LC hired him in December 1980, some 35 years ago.

[RichH2]

Pards are not as bad as many are saying. Reed actually looked more like himself today. As expected a rout but I didn't see Pards give up. Need to get some LMs back on both sides of the ball.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Pards are not as bad as many are saying. Reed actually looked more like himself today. As expected a rout but I didn't see Pards give up. Need to get some LMs back on both sides of the ball.

Man, talk about rosy perspective after a 42-0 loss. 80-7 in the last two games? That likely hasn't been matched by the Pards in two straight weeks in a while....

[RichH2]

Man, talk about rosy perspective after a 42-0 loss. 80-7 in the last two games? That likely hasn't been matched by the Pards in two straight weeks in a while....
:) Didn't say they were any good ,just not as pathetic as Pard fans said. Heck,they expected it to be 42-0 at half.

[Pards Rule]

Man, talk about rosy perspective after a 42-0 loss. 80-7 in the last two games? That likely hasn't been matched by the Pards in two straight weeks in a while....

Perhaps you could investigate that for us??

[Go...gate]

I'm surprised that with the money put into facilities, addition of scholarships, academic excellence and other benefits LC provides that they have slipped. I believed that they were in line to be a perennially strong program.

Not that I'm not similarly concerned about Colgate....

[Pard4Life]

Russo had only 3 winning seasons at Wagner before LC hired him in December 1980, some 35 years ago.

Well that's because Russo had only coached three seasons at Wagner before LC.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Perhaps you could investigate that for us??

Worse two weeks for Lafayette football since 1991 when they lost 60-17 to Hofstra then 48-14 to Holy Cross. In 1990 the 'Pards lost 56-0 to Army then 34-3 to Holy Cross.....

It could be worse. Temple had 2 straight seasons like this in the mid 2000's....

[carney2]

I'm surprised that with the money put into facilities, addition of scholarships, academic excellence and other benefits LC provides that they have slipped. I believed that they were in line to be a perennially strong program.

The facilities came from alumni, not the College. One more time: THE problem at Lafayette is lack of institutional support. I guess the jury's still out, but the new President is beginning to smell like more of the same. I should write an essay and post it on AGS, ... but I'm too lazy. Anyway, the "problem" began in 1978 and I'm not sure that it can be reversed at this point. I am increasingly getting a feeling of hopelessness about it.

[Franks Tanks]

The facilities came from alumni, not the College. One more time: THE problem at Lafayette is lack of institutional support. I guess the jury's still out, but the new President is beginning to smell like more of the same. I should write an essay and post it on AGS, ... but I'm too lazy. Anyway, the "problem" began in 1978 and I'm not sure that it can be reversed at this point. I am increasingly getting a feeling of hopelessness about it.
We have a beautiful facility. We have 60 full scholarships. Many schools would kill for these 2 resources. Yes our AD is a dope, and our admin isnt always friendly, but we can do better. We should and need to do better preiod. We were 100x better with our crappy old facilities and need based aid.

[carney2]

We have a beautiful facility. We have 60 full scholarships. Many schools would kill for these 2 resources. Yes our AD is a dope, and our admin isnt always friendly, but we can do better. We should and need to do better preiod. We were 100x better with our crappy old facilities and need based aid.

You're young and can afford to have hope. Try 5 decades of pretty much constant garbage. It not only wears you down, it gives you a feeling of hopeless inevitability. In the end the institution will not support you and, worse, will not allow you to succeed. I am close to throwing in the towel. Rothkopf may have been right: D-3 or cash crops at Fisher.

[CHIP72]

Worse two weeks for Lafayette football since 1991 when they lost 60-17 to Hofstra then 48-14 to Holy Cross. In 1990 the 'Pards lost 56-0 to Army then 34-3 to Holy Cross.....

It could be worse. Temple had 2 straight seasons like this in the mid 2000's....

What are you talking about LehighTUOwl? Temple had more like 17 straight seasons like this from 1991 to 2007.

(For everyone else, Temple had 4 or fewer wins every year during that 17 year stretch.)

[centennial]

Why aren't the coaches changed? It's apparent to an outsider that your coaches aren't going to cut it. Especially with scholarship football.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You're young and can afford to have hope. Try 5 decades of pretty much constant garbage. It not only wears you down, it gives you a feeling of hopeless inevitability. In the end the institution will not support you and, worse, will not allow you to succeed. I am close to throwing in the towel. Rothkopf may have been right: D-3 or cash crops at Fisher.

I know the institutions are vastly different but Temple was in a far worse spot a decade ago than Lafayette is now. If nothing else , both of us have survived the elimination/de-emphasis of football in the last 16 or so years. You need a coach that has the passion and will to get over the hurdles that the administration presents.

Fordham's athletic department is rather bumbling (the bball program is a trainwreck) yet Moorhead has been able to overcome it. Lafayette needs a guy like Joe who has a vested interest in the school and program

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

What are you talking about LehighTUOwl? Temple had more like 17 straight seasons like this from 1991 to 2007.

(For everyone else, Temple had 4 or fewer wins every year during that 17 year stretch.)


I was specifically referring to 2005 and 2006. Lafayette has nothing on this two year run.....

2005-
63-16 loss
65-0 loss
42-17 loss
19-16 loss
70-7 loss
38-7 loss
34-3 loss
37-7 loss
41-14 loss
51-3 loss
38-17 loss

2006
9-3 loss
62-0 loss
62-0 loss, yes consecutive 62-0 losses
41-7 loss
43-14 loss
28-17 loss
63-9 loss
43-21 loss
28-14 win!!
42-26 loss
47-0 loss
42-6 loss

I'll be in Greenville Thursday night for Temple-ECU!! I'm playing golf at NC State in the am! I'm pumped! Might be in NYC Saturday for LU-FU too. Golf season is basically wrapped up for me so it's vacation week. I've been to two Lehigh games this year but not one Owl game....

[ngineer]

I know the institutions are vastly different but Temple was in a far worse spot a decade ago than Lafayette is now. If nothing else , both of us have survived the elimination/de-emphasis of football in the last 16 or so years. You need a coach that has the passion and will to get over the hurdles that the administration presents.

Fordham's athletic department is rather bumbling (the bball program is a trainwreck) yet Moorhead has been able to overcome it. Lafayette needs a guy like Joe who has a vested interest in the school and program

Bring in Troxell from F&M?

[CHIP72]

I was at that 47-0 loss (which was at Penn State) in 2006. The Owls have come a long way in 9 years. Heck, even 2013, as bad as it was, was nowhere near as bad as some of Temple's horrible seasons in the early 1990s or mid-2000s.

I'm all set for attending the Notre Dame game on 10/31. Hopefully that game will be as much fun (albeit almost definitely closer) as the Tulane game was on 10/10. I'm also planning to attend the Connecticut game on 11/28, though other commitments may prevent that.

I should note I am considering blasphemy and passing on watching Lafayette/Lehigh on TV on 11/21 (mainly because of how poor both teams, especially Lafayette, look right now) and instead attend Memphis/Temple that day.

[Pards Rule]

Well that's because Russo had only coached three seasons at Wagner before LC.


Correct....continue

[carney2]

Why aren't the coaches changed? It's apparent to an outsider that your coaches aren't going to cut it. Especially with scholarship football.

READ AND UNDERSTAND post no. 115 in this thread and do not bring this up again.

[Pards Rule]

Worse two weeks for Lafayette football since 1991 when they lost 60-17 to Hofstra then 48-14 to Holy Cross. In 1990 the 'Pards lost 56-0 to Army then 34-3 to Holy Cross.....

It could be worse. Temple had 2 straight seasons like this in the mid 2000's....


I went to Worcester Mass. for that Holy Cross game in 1991! First and last time at Fitton Field.

[Fordham]

....

Fordham's athletic department is rather bumbling (the bball program is a trainwreck) yet Moorhead has been able to overcome it. Lafayette needs a guy like Joe who has a vested interest in the school and program


Whats interesting is that Dave Roach has brought a huge dose of professionalism to the AD role at Fordham. I know 'Gate fans rip him but maybe it's more so a condemnation of the crew he replaced that he would be seen as that much of an upgrade. That said, he recently ran our first professionally administered hoops search and I would place a wager that this guy will have success for our hoops team (finally). He appears to be very much a Moorhead for hoops but we'll see.

[Pard4Life]

Why aren't the coaches changed? It's apparent to an outsider that your coaches aren't going to cut it. Especially with scholarship football.

LOL don't mind carney... he is tired of it all. Long story short: our AD is a dimunitive, quiet guy or does not exhibit much leadership. Athletics is buried in the admin: it reports to VP of Student Affairs. The present VP of student affairs used to be head of the dorms... I remember back in the day talking to her about my room selection. Does that reporting structure make sense.

Also, the AD and Department philosophy is to graduate academically and morally responsible players who follow rules and exhibit sportsmanship etc. Those are fine and necessary principles but winning is not apart of the evaluation process. As long as you graduate 90%+ of your guys and they are behaved on campus, you have a job for life. The women's basketball coach averaged 3 wins per season for 10 years before being 'fired' in 2011. The coach makes excuses and some are viable and true, but then you see what happens on the field, and attitude of the team, and you say "WTF?"

Alums have poured $30mm+ into facilities and infrastructure and this is permitted to continue. The relationship is very frosty between these donors and the AD. I guess it's not unlike Michigan last year, to some degree.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Athletics is buried in the admin: it reports to VP of Student Affairs. The present VP of student affairs used to be head of the dorms... I remember back in the day talking to her about my room selection. Does that reporting structure make sense.

This is the part that baffles me. The PL is supposed to be a "president-driven" league, meaning that the presidents, not the athletic directors, control athletics, attend the league meetings and make decisions regarding sports. Delegation of that authority at Lafayette to a sub-administrator seem to defeat the purpose.

The Patriot League was formed because of athletics. The PL started as a football-only conference. It's a unique group made up of (mostly) small private colleges, who wanted to extend their collective tradition of competition at the major college level into the modern era. Lots of other colleges collapsed into Division III but this group wanted to spend the time effort and money to distinguish themselves and maintain a national profile in academic as well as athletics.

I have to believe that somebody, somewhere at Lafayette still understands this and that the college recognizes that football (withing the context of the PL) plays a not-insignificant role in maintaining Lafayette's national identity. It's best not to brush it aside.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I went to Worcester Mass. for that Holy Cross game in 1991! First and last time at Fitton Field.

HC is the only PL school I've yet to visit. Perhaps next year? I'd like to be living in VT or NH by this time next year so it might be my closest venue to see LU play....

[Pards Rule]

HC is the only PL school I've yet to visit. Perhaps next year? I'd like to be living in VT or NH by this time next year so it might be my closest venue to see LU play....

Burlington Vermont is very nice! I was there quite a few times for Maaco as a Real Estate Manager and helped a franchisee secure a very good amenable location near the airport and he opened 10 years ago this past August and still doing well. I gave Mike Fortuna a Happy Anniversary call in August even though I am long past my days in Maaco's employ, and he so appreciated!

[Pards Rule]

HC is the only PL school I've yet to visit. Perhaps next year? I'd like to be living in VT or NH by this time next year so it might be my closest venue to see LU play....

But if you decide to choose NH, you can always go to the perpetual Lafayette-UNH game :)

[Sader87]

This is the part that baffles me. The PL is supposed to be a "president-driven" league, meaning that the presidents, not the athletic directors, control athletics, attend the league meetings and make decisions regarding sports. Delegation of that authority at Lafayette to a sub-administrator seem to defeat the purpose.

The Patriot League was formed because of athletics. The PL started as a football-only conference. It's a unique group made up of (mostly) small private colleges, who wanted to extend their collective tradition of competition at the major college level into the modern era. Lots of other colleges collapsed into Division III but this group wanted to spend the time effort and money to distinguish themselves and maintain a national profile in academic as well as athletics.

I have to believe that somebody, somewhere at Lafayette still understands this and that the college recognizes that football (withing the context of the PL) plays a not-insignificant role in maintaining Lafayette's national identity. It's best not to brush it aside.

I might quibble with this just a bit Bogey. The Colonial League was basically created to give the Ivies another league to get OOC games. The Presidents of the Colonial League schools at that time were sold a bill of goods imo. Holy Cross football still hasn't really recovered.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Burlington Vermont is very nice! I was there quite a few times for Maaco as a Real Estate Manager and helped a franchisee secure a very good amenable location near the airport and he opened 10 years ago this past August and still doing well. I gave Mike Fortuna a Happy Anniversary call in August even though I am long past my days in Maaco's employ, and he so appreciated!

Time will tell. I loved Montana and had a great experience out there but it was a little too far.
There's some tremendous golf courses up there, New England, in the mountains. Given my background I'm going to look into some of the better 4 season facilities. There's good skiing up there but nothing like Big Sky, MT.....

UNH is on my bucket list. Perhaps the next time Lehigh plays there? I drove through Durham when I was in York Harbor, ME a few years ago.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I might quibble with this just a bit Bogey. The Colonial League was basically created to give the Ivies another league to get OOC games. The Presidents of the Colonial League schools at that time were sold a bill of goods imo. Holy Cross football still hasn't really recovered.

I don't disagree about the Ivy schedule thing because everyone said as much when the league was created. But we've pretty much been through this before - all of the "core five" had pretty much equivalent schedules beforehand. With the advent of 1AA football the PL was probably the best decision for all. The trouble was not the league but how the league was run with its wishful, lofty - and unreasonable - expectations.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't disagree about the Ivy schedule thing because everyone said as much when the league was created. But we've pretty much been through this before - all of the "core five" had pretty much equivalent schedules beforehand. With the advent of 1AA football the PL was probably the best decision for all. The trouble was not the league but how the league was run with its wishful, lofty - and unreasonable - expectations.

Not sure they were equivalent. Putting aside Fordham and Georgetown toiling in D-III anonymity, there were differences. In fact, some of these schools were as likely or more likely to be playing Yankee Conference schools than the Ivies. Here are the 1985 schedules of today's Patriot League (I-A schools in bold, Ivy in green, CAA in blue, Patriot in red, sub-Division I in italics)

Bucknell (3-7-0, Coach: Bob Curtis):
Carnegie Mellon, Davidson, Northeastern, Boston U, New Hampshire, Delaware, Columbia, Cornell, Lafayette, Lehigh

Colgate (7-3-1, Coach: Fred Dunlap):
Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, Cornell, Dartmouth, Princeton, Columbia, Penn, Army, Rutgers, Boston U

Fordham (6-5-0, Coach: O'Neal Tutein):
Worcester Tech, Catholic, Merchant Marine, St. John's, Georgetown, Franklin & Marshall, Hofstra, Iona, CW Post, Pace

Georgetown (5-4-0, Coach: Scotty Glacken)
St. Francis, Dickinson, Franklin & Marshall, Fordham, St. Peter's, Johns Hopkins, Catholic, St. John's, Swarthmore

Holy Cross (4-6-1, Coach: Rick Carter)
Colgate, UMass, Delaware, Dartmouth, Yale, UConn, Brown, Army, Harvard, Boston U, Boston College

Lafayette (6-5-0, Coach: Bill Russo)
New Hampshire, Colgate, Columbia, Cornell, JMU, Navy, URI, Towson, Bucknell, Kutztown, Lehigh

Lehigh (5-6-0, Coach: John Whitehead)
Indiana PA, UConn, Princeton, Colgate, URI, UNH, Delaware, William & Mary, West Chester, Bucknell, Lafayette

A paraphrased quote from former Holy Cross president John Brooks, SJ said that "We set a model that others would follow. So far, no one has followed." True then, true today.

[Go...gate]

Not sure they were equivalent. Putting aside Fordham and Georgetown toiling in D-III anonymity, there were differences. In fact, some of these schools were as likely or more likely to be playing Yankee Conference schools than the Ivies. Here are the 1985 schedules of today's Patriot League (I-A schools in bold, Ivy in green, CAA in blue, Patriot in red, sub-Division I in italics)

Bucknell (3-7-0, Coach: Bob Curtis):
Carnegie Mellon, Davidson, Northeastern, Boston U, New Hampshire, Delaware, Columbia, Cornell, Lafayette, Lehigh

Colgate (7-3-1, Coach: Fred Dunlap):
Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, Cornell, Dartmouth, Princeton, Columbia, Penn, Army, Rutgers, Boston U

Fordham (6-5-0, Coach: O'Neal Tutein):
Worcester Tech, Catholic, Merchant Marine, St. John's, Georgetown, Franklin & Marshall, Hofstra, Iona, CW Post, Pace

Georgetown (5-4-0, Coach: Scotty Glacken)
St. Francis, Dickinson, Franklin & Marshall, Fordham, St. Peter's, Johns Hopkins, Catholic, St. John's, Swarthmore

Holy Cross (6-5-0, Coach: Rick Carter)
Colgate, UMass, Delaware, Dartmouth, Yale, UConn, Brown, Army, Harvard, Boston U, Boston College

Lafayette (6-5-0, Coach: Bill Russo)
New Hampshire, Colgate, Columbia, Cornell, JMU, Navy, URI, Towson, Bucknell, Kutztown, Lehigh

Lehigh (5-6-0, Coach: John Whitehead)
Indiana PA, UConn, Princeton, Colgate, URI, UNH, Delaware, William & Mary, West Chester, Bucknell, Lafayette

A paraphrased quote from former Holy Cross president John Brooks, SJ said that "We set a model that others would follow. So far, no one has followed." True then, true today.

Connecticut and Massachusetts were Yankee Conference schools in 1985. I-A was far, far away.

Also, Holy Cross was 4-6-1 in 1985, Rick Carter's final season (sadly, as he committed suicide in February 1986).

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Was West Chester D2 in 1985? Weren't they 1AA at one point? They don't have a bio on cfbdatawarehouse.

[Go...gate]

Was West Chester D2 in 1985? Weren't they 1AA at one point? They don't have a bio on cfbdatawarehouse.

I don't believe so.

[CHIP72]

Was West Chester D2 in 1985? Weren't they 1AA at one point? They don't have a bio on cfbdatawarehouse.

Related to this, there was and is a pretty significant difference between D2 and D3.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Related to this, there was and is a pretty significant difference between D2 and D3.

I still think there is. I got to see Chadron State against Montana State and they looked big and fast. Bloomsburg is almost always good. I think they would compete pretty well in the PL this year and generally most years over the last decade.

The D3 football that I've seen, in general, has been "meh". The line play is what's noticeably weak when teams struggle. Muhlenburg, Moravian, Wilkes, King's....not a lot there. Delaware Valley had some real good teams several years ago. Most of those teams would get killed in the PSAC.

One of the most impressive small schools I've ever seen is Carroll College in Helena. They're an NAIA school that recruits some legit talent. I saw them play Montana Tech a couple of years ago. It was a blast....

[Bogus Megapardus]

Those 1985 schedules look pretty similar to me.

[CHIP72]

I still think there is. I got to see Chadron State against Montana State and they looked big and fast. Bloomsburg is almost always good. I think they would compete pretty well in the PL this year and generally most years over the last decade.

The D3 football that I've seen, in general, has been "meh". The line play is what's noticeably weak when teams struggle. Muhlenburg, Moravian, Wilkes, King's....not a lot there. Delaware Valley had some real good teams several years ago. Most of those teams would get killed in the PSAC.

One of the most impressive small schools I've ever seen is Carroll College in Helena. They're an NAIA school that recruits some legit talent. I saw them play Montana Tech a couple of years ago. It was a blast....

LehighTUOwl - I totally agree with you. I went to a D3 school (Juniata) for my undergraduate degree, and a D2 school (IUP) for my graduate degree. Now I will note Juniata wasn't very good at its level during the time I was there (1991-1994) while IUP was a D2 playoff team in 2 of the 3 years I was there (1997-1999). Having said that, I thought the Juniata games were kind of boring to watch when I was a student there; the games just didn't move fast enough relative to the NFL and major college football games I was accustomed to watching. (As a side note, I could have watched many games easily if I chose to do so during my time as a student; the dorm I lived in during my sophomore and junior years was across the street from the stadium parallel to the visitor's sideline, and my room was on the 45 yard line my sophomore year and the 30 yard line my junior year.) I remember when I went to IUP and went to my first game I thought the action would only be slightly better than what I saw at Juniata. I was wrong; the games were MUCH more watchable, the games were noticeably faster, and the quality was significantly better. I went to many IUP games when I was a student there and never found even one of them unwatchable. Most Division II teams, with the exception of really low level teams like Cheyney or maybe Millersville or Lock Haven, play good quality football, and IMO many of the better PSAC schools would be very competitive in the Patriot League, especially in a down year for the PL like this year. (As another example, last year Colorado State-Pueblo, the eventual D2 national champion, defeated Sam Houston State, an eventual DI-AA/FCS playoff semifinalist, in a regular season game.)

My observations from my time as a student are the reason why I think the biggest gap among any two "adjacent" football divisions is the gap between Division II and Division III. There are some Division III teams, like the Wisconsin-Whitewater and Mount Union, that would be playoff-caliber teams in Division II and mid-level teams in Division I-AA/FCS IMO. On the other hand, look at many of the playoff scores those teams have posted, and some other top Division III teams have posted as well, and you'll see there is a wide disparity in quality among Division III teams, even top Division III teams. (I attribute that to some top schools granting de facto athletic scholarships that are disguised as academic scholarships.) The vast majority of Division III teams are considerably below even mid-level Division II teams in quality IMO, and the fact so many Division III games, including playoff games, are blowouts are a function of that lack of quality.

Though I follow teams in all NCAA levels of college football, I wouldn't go to a Division III game unless it was a playoff game involving a team I follow or possibly the Moravian/Muhlenberg rivalry game if both teams were good teams that year. (I honestly don't even have interest in watching Juniata games unless they make the playoffs.) By contrast, I have definite interest in attending Division II games and will do so if they involve teams I follow and they fit into my schedule; the primary reasons I don't go to too many of those games are 1) the teams I follow usually don't play close to the DC area and 2) I have stronger rooting interests in the Division I-A/FBS and Division I-AA/FCS teams I follow. I went to a Bloomsburg/East Stroudsburg game in 2013 (a game Bloomsburg won 52-38 in which both teams had over 500 yards of offense), the first D2 game I attended since my IUP days, and found it very enjoyable. With Shepherd, a school in the eastern WV panhandle, currently the top team in SR1 (a group of four conferences that includes the PSAC), and Bowie State (a school about 20 miles east of DC) also in the top 10 of the SR1 regional rankings (assuming they don't have to forfeit games due to using an ineligible player in 5 games this year), there's a decent chance IUP and/or Bloomsburg could play at Shepherd or possibly Bowie State in the playoffs. If that happens, I would seriously consider attending (though Temple's success this year could complicate things; the first round of the D2 playoffs is the same day as Memphis/Temple and also Lafayette/Lehigh, and the D2 SR1 championship game is on 12/5, the same day as the AAC championship game).

[Pards Rule]

Time will tell. I loved Montana and had a great experience out there but it was a little too far.
There's some tremendous golf courses up there, New England, in the mountains. Given my background I'm going to look into some of the better 4 season facilities. There's good skiing up there but nothing like Big Sky, MT.....

UNH is on my bucket list. Perhaps the next time Lehigh plays there? I drove through Durham when I was in York Harbor, ME a few years ago.

I was up there on a 30 degree but sunny day the Saturday after Thanksgiving in 2013 for some reason or another...I remember staying in the Rochester NH Microtel Inn and my memory blanks after that but I do recall the small, quaint Durham rotary with its retail stores was charming. Oh, and a new Saxbys Coffee is under construction next to the Durham Rotary in the new Madbury Commons retail set across the creek. Please visit!

[Pards Rule]

Not sure they were equivalent. Putting aside Fordham and Georgetown toiling in D-III anonymity, there were differences. In fact, some of these schools were as likely or more likely to be playing Yankee Conference schools than the Ivies. Here are the 1985 schedules of today's Patriot League (I-A schools in bold, Ivy in green, CAA in blue, Patriot in red, sub-Division I in italics)

Bucknell (3-7-0, Coach: Bob Curtis):
Carnegie Mellon, Davidson, Northeastern, Boston U, New Hampshire, Delaware, Columbia, Cornell, Lafayette, Lehigh

Colgate (7-3-1, Coach: Fred Dunlap):
Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, Cornell, Dartmouth, Princeton, Columbia, Penn, Army, Rutgers, Boston U

Fordham (6-5-0, Coach: O'Neal Tutein):
Worcester Tech, Catholic, Merchant Marine, St. John's, Georgetown, Franklin & Marshall, Hofstra, Iona, CW Post, Pace

Georgetown (5-4-0, Coach: Scotty Glacken)
St. Francis, Dickinson, Franklin & Marshall, Fordham, St. Peter's, Johns Hopkins, Catholic, St. John's, Swarthmore

Holy Cross (4-6-1, Coach: Rick Carter)
Colgate, UMass, Delaware, Dartmouth, Yale, UConn, Brown, Army, Harvard, Boston U, Boston College

Lafayette (6-5-0, Coach: Bill Russo)
New Hampshire, Colgate, Columbia, Cornell, JMU, Navy, URI, Towson, Bucknell, Kutztown, Lehigh

Lehigh (5-6-0, Coach: John Whitehead)
Indiana PA, UConn, Princeton, Colgate, URI, UNH, Delaware, William & Mary, West Chester, Bucknell, Lafayette

A paraphrased quote from former Holy Cross president John Brooks, SJ said that "We set a model that others would follow. So far, no one has followed." True then, true today.

DFW, what site do you recommend for past I-AA schedules? I recall a very good one but when I changed computers lost it..Thanks so much!

[DFW HOYA]

DFW, what site do you recommend for past I-AA schedules? I recall a very good one but when I changed computers lost it..Thanks so much!

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa_team_index.php

[ngineer]

Was West Chester D2 in 1985? Weren't they 1AA at one point? They don't have a bio on cfbdatawarehouse.

WCU was never 1-AA. They became D-II when the divisions were created along with the other PSAC teams (Millersville, Kutztown, Bloomsburg, etal).

[Bill]

WCU was never 1-AA. They became D-II when the divisions were created along with the other PSAC teams (Millersville, Kutztown, Bloomsburg, etal).

Whew. I always know I'm on a PL thread when items like "et al." get used. Well done!

[aceinthehole]

WCU was never 1-AA. They became D-II when the divisions were created along with the other PSAC teams (Millersville, Kutztown, Bloomsburg, etal).

I think the only school that reclassified their football team down to D-II from the I-AA was West Texas A&M.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I think the only school that reclassified their football team down to D-II from the I-AA was West Texas A&M.

I think Winston-Salem announced a transition to D-I a few years ago, but backed down before playing a game.

[Franks Tanks]

I think the only school that reclassified their football team down to D-II from the I-AA was West Texas A&M.

West Chester was D-II before the I-A, I-AA split. West Chester was D2 along with us and Bucknell and Delaware at the time. They were still a member of the PSAC, but were D2. I believe most of the other state schools were D-III or even NAIA at the time.

Getting back to the point, all of the PSAC schools were certainly D2 by the early to mid 80's.

[carney2]

Summarizing the Lafayette situation:

- Six consecutive losing seasons - and counting.

- Outscored in the last four games 157 - 14. The embarrassment has reached biblical proportions.

- The head coach has "retired," but continues to cash pay checks.

- The AD is an incompetent yes man.

- There have been no increases in funding for football since 2007 or thereabouts.

- The No. 150 windfall produced significant money, but not one penny was allowed to remain in the athletic department.

- The President of the College knows nothing about athletics, and cares less.

- The AD does not report to the President. (One of the few D-1 programs with this kind of organization chart.) In fact, he reports to an administrator who, at one point in her career, was in charge of assigning dorm rooms.

- A significant percentage of the Board of Trustees either doesn't care about athletics or is staunchly anti-athletic.

- In 1978 a strong anti-athletic President retired. The Board of Trustees repeatedly botched replacement hirings for the next two decades, creating a power vacuum. The faculty rushed to fill the vacuum and have not relinquished their top dog power. They view athletics as a meaningless diversion and an evil. Football is the 1,000 pound gorilla in that room.

- Recruiting has not gone well for a while now. Can you reasonably expect to recruit into a well decorated (Fisher/Bourger) cesspool?

- With the exception of the coordinators and maybe one other, assistant coaches are paid cooly wages.

If there's a light at the end of this tunnel I don't see it.

[Pard4Life]

So did everyone have fun watching that 42-0 rout at Fitton? Up next, the Pards face the best defense in the Patriot League: Bucknell!

What will 151 look like? I don't see Lehigh letting up a-la Gilmore yesterday. We may see a Lehigh victory akin to the 1970s.

Speaking of, the Pards have not been shutout in three consecutive games since 1952.

[Neighbor2]

Things sound very dismal in Easton! Not sure a new coach and athletic director will be enough, but no change in course without that first. I'd like to know more about the Lafayette alumni expectations. Is there any real concern there over maintaining a lame effort in football? Are certain alumni donors still willing/capable to force more support, or are they all tapped-out creating better facilities? Has basketball become all that really matters, or do you see cracks developing there, too?

I really see satisfaction with mediocre Lehigh and Lafayette football to be a huge missed opportunity not just for the schools, but for the entire Lehigh Valley community. Both school administrations could be doing more. Maybe athletics is the new politically-incorrect arena for our local institutions. I mean, we shouldn't really want to win, because that means someone else doesn't win. Maybe, both schools should give away some of what they have/had to benefit mankind. Success looks bad, don't you know?

[RichH2]

Things sound very dismal in Easton! Not sure a new coach and athletic director will be enough, but no change in course without that first. I'd like to know more about the Lafayette alumni expectations. Is there any real concern there over maintaining a lame effort in football? Are certain alumni donors still willing/capable to force more support, or are they all tapped-out creating better facilities? Has basketball become all that really matters, or do you see cracks developing there, too?

I really see satisfaction with mediocre Lehigh and Lafayette football to be a huge missed opportunity not just for the schools, but for the entire Lehigh Valley community. Both school administrations could be doing more. Maybe athletics is the new politically-incorrect arena for our local institutions. I mean, we shouldn't really want to win, because that means someone else doesn't win. Maybe, both schools should give away some of what they have/had to benefit mankind. Success looks bad, don't you know?
Really???Cant speak to Lafayette but Sterrett certainly does not abide mediocrity . The two are not comparable . Neither football team is good this year but they are going in opposite directions. Lehigh is frustratingly inconsistent but improving,Lafayette is dissolving.

[ngineer]

Things sound very dismal in Easton! Not sure a new coach and athletic director will be enough, but no change in course without that first. I'd like to know more about the Lafayette alumni expectations. Is there any real concern there over maintaining a lame effort in football? Are certain alumni donors still willing/capable to force more support, or are they all tapped-out creating better facilities? Has basketball become all that really matters, or do you see cracks developing there, too?

I really see satisfaction with mediocre Lehigh and Lafayette football to be a huge missed opportunity not just for the schools, but for the entire Lehigh Valley community. Both school administrations could be doing more. Maybe athletics is the new politically-incorrect arena for our local institutions. I mean, we shouldn't really want to win, because that means someone else doesn't win. Maybe, both schools should give away some of what they have/had to benefit mankind. Success looks bad, don't you know?

Not so at Lehigh. We've had a good run of overall success over the past several years in most of the athletic programs. The only one that struggles consistently is field hockey. All of the others have won multiple championships or been in the hunt late in their respective seasons recently. People are too myopic and don't see all of the different elements that go into producing a successful athletic program. It's not all instant gratification.

[DFW HOYA]

- There have been no increases in funding for football since 2007 or thereabouts.



This is not supported by the EADA reports online, which show a 40 percent increase since 2007. In fact, Lafayette is within $14K of the second largest football budget in the PL, just behind Colgate.

[Neighbor2]

Really???Cant speak to Lafayette but Sterrett certainly does not abide mediocrity . The two are not comparable . Neither football team is good this year but they are going in opposite directions. Lehigh is frustratingly inconsistent but improving,Lafayette is dissolving.

No doubt, the Lehigh football team is still showing promise going forward, but the malaise carney2 described at Lafayette seems hopeless. I get the fierce rivalry, etc. but the poor situation over there is not good for Lehigh, actually, nor the region's fans. Much more fun when both local schools contend for a championship and compete, sometimes defeat, higher-ranked opponents. Overall, the athletic success across sports at Lehigh has been good. But, who would have expected Lafayette to be ignored in such a high focus sport? Maybe that can't happen at Lehigh, too. Maybe carney2 is simply nuts in his assessment. I don't think he is, and hope his school's ill is not contagious.

[RichH2]

No doubt, the Lehigh football team is still showing promise going forward, but the malaise carney2 described at Lafayette seems hopeless. I get the fierce rivalry, etc. but the poor situation over there is not good for Lehigh, actually, nor the region's fans. Much more fun when both local schools contend for a championship and compete, sometimes defeat, higher-ranked opponents. Overall, the athletic success across sports at Lehigh has been good. But, who would have expected Lafayette to be ignored in such a high focus sport? Maybe that can't happen at Lehigh, too. Maybe carney2 is simply nuts in his assessment. I don't think he is, and hope his school's ill is not contagious.
Agree 100% . A hapless Lafayette is not good for Lehigh or the LV in the long run. Dont get me wrong,I hope Pards never win another game vs us. The way the program is now,the overall won-lost between us is and has been for quite a while very one sided in Lehigh"s favor.
It's almost as if Pard BOT views athletics as an unnecessary bother and has implemented policies to render them meaningless.