IVY league policy on postseason Football

[3yards]

IVY league has a policy that their Football teams can not participate in post-season play incluidng Division 1AA playoffs. Apparently the proposal to play postseason Footall policy was voted on again 4 years ago and defeated. Is ridiculous to me. Let the Football team play a post-season game or two. Like everyone all the rest of their teams in their schools. How would that go over banning IVY Men's Basketball from the NCAA playoffs? What would the Football players vote? You know darn well they would want to play. And it can not help recruting as it is now. As mentioned earlier it is not a financial consideration, is a philosophy.

[carney2]

IVY league has a policy that their Football teams can not participate in post-season play incluidng Division 1AA playoffs. Apparently the proposal to play postseason Footall policy was voted on again 4 years ago and defeated. Is ridiculous to me. Let the Football team play a post-season game or two. Like everyone all the rest of their teams in their schools. How would that go over banning IVY Men's Basketball from the NCAA playoffs? What would the Football players vote? You know darn well they would want to play. And it can not help recruting as it is now. As mentioned earlier it is not a financial consideration, is a philosophy.

Here we go again. We seem to do this once each month. What is it about the Ivys picking up their ball and going home before Thanksgiving each year that bothers so many people here? We all had kids in our neighborhood who did not want to play with us. We got over it.

As for the argument that they are hypocrites because they participate in every other NCAA sponsored championship but football, I will once again recount my favorite explanation:

In every other NCAA sponsored championship event the Ivy League champion participates with the big kids. In basketball they play against Duke and Kansas; in lacrosse it's Syracuse and Virginia; etc. In football the Ivys have a long and storied history. Through the first 80 or 90 years of college football in fact, the Ivys were the "big kids." Of the 123 BS/I-A/"big kids" national championships awarded since 1883, the Ivy League has, by one count, won 32 (26%) of them. I daresay that is far more than any other conference. The Ivy League is tradition and arrogance, if nothing else. I personally feel that they view the CS/I-AA football championships as a lesser event and do not want to be associated with it.

As for allowing the players to vote, it is a ridiculous point. Conferences and administrations set policy, not the inmates in the asylum. Besides, Ivy recruits know going in that they are not going to participate after the final whistle of the Harvard-Yale game ("no game shall be played after Harvard-Yale") and that they will not have to suffer through the mangling and bone crushing of spring practice.

[MplsBison]

I hope some sports fans get in control of the Ivy schools.

No reasons why some of those schools couldn't be national powers at 85 scholarships.

[bkrownd]

I personally feel that they view the CS/I-AA football championships as a lesser event and do not want to be associated with it.


I don't think it's the "event" they don't want to be associated with. I think it's the participants and the nature of the division 1 game that they're turning their noses up at. The ivies chose to distance themselves from big time football very early in the 20th century, after they had lost control of it. You can hardly blame them - throughout most of the 20th century football was a shady business.

[carney2]

I don't think it's the "event" they don't want to be associated with. I think it's the participants and the nature of the division 1 game that they're turning their noses up at. The ivies chose to distance themselves from big time football very early in the 20th century, after they had lost control of it. You can hardly blame them - throughout most of the 20th century football was a shady business.

Yet another argument that makes sense. Thank you.

Picking some nit, however, the Ivy League did not really "distance themselves" from big time football until the mid to late 1950s. They had a Heisman Trophy winner as late as 1951.

[Ivytalk]

Yet another argument that makes sense. Thank you.

Picking some nit, however, the Ivy League did not really "distance themselves" from big time football until the mid to late 1950s. They had a Heisman Trophy winner as late as 1951.

Princeton's Dick Kazmaier, right?

[carney2]

Yet another argument that makes sense. Thank you.

Picking some nit, however, the Ivy League did not really "distance themselves" from big time football until the mid to late 1950s. They had a Heisman Trophy winner as late as 1951.

Princeton's Dick Kazmaier, right?

You got it. He was not, however, the last Ivy League Heisman "finalist."

[carney2]

I hope some sports fans get in control of the Ivy schools.

I most sincerely hope and pray not. I taught in colleges for a number of years and was most distressed to see the standards and levels of education constantly being eroded by concerns such as this and the desire to keep the doors open at any cost. On the other hand a couple of my kids attended Ivy League institutions and I never detected any "give" in this area. During orientation one of my children was herded into a large auditorium where some academic mukkity-muk told the assembled freshmen:

"You are going to need to change. All of you were in the top 10% of your high school graduating classes. I am guaranteeing you that only 10% of you will be in the top 10% here."

In other words, this is going to be difficult - and it was. There was no hand holding; no erosion of standards that I could detect. He was saying that the levels of competition that they were accustomed to were going to change. One thing that I found out when I taught was that the thing that most determines the quality of your education is not the facilities; not the textbooks, not the learned individual in front of the room. Rather, it is the guy sitting next to you. If he or she is a moron there is little hope because everything that goes on in that room is coming down to that level. It has been my observation that very few of these types are sitting next to you at an Ivy school. With the sports crowd in charge, however...

[TheValleyRaider]

And it can not help recruting as it is now. As mentioned earlier it is not a financial consideration, is a philosophy.

carney answered the rest just fine, but this also should be addressed. If, for example, Yale came up to you and said "We'd like you to play football at Yale, and we'll help pay for you to graduate with a Yale degree and all the benefits that entails." Suddenly you get 4 years at one of the nation's most prestigious schools and an alumni network of connections second to only the other Ivies. Now how does recruiting go? :read:

[Green26]

And Ed Marinaro, Cornell '72, was runner up for the Heisman in 1971, finishing a bit behind Pat Sullivan. Marinaro led the nation in rushing in 1971 and 1970.

[MplsBison]

With the sports crowd in charge, however...

All I have to do to disprove you is say one word.

One little word.

Ready?



Stanford.



Wow, that was easy.

Your entire argument disproved with one word.

[bkrownd]

Picking some nit, however, the Ivy League did not really "distance themselves" from big time football until the mid to late 1950s. They had a Heisman Trophy winner as late as 1951.

Check out Princeton's 1951 schedule, and the rest of their 1950's, 1940's and older schedules. They're basically identical to the schedules they play today. The Heisman wasn't the same back then.

1951-Princeton (Independent)
9/29 vs. New York University (1-7) W 54 20
10/6 @ Navy (2-6-1) W 24 20
10/13 @ Pennsylvania (5-4) W 13 7
10/20 vs. Lafayette (non-IA) W 60 7
10/27 vs. Cornell (6-3) W 53 15
11/3 vs. Brown (2-7) W 12 0
11/10 @ Harvard (3-5-1) W 54 13
11/17 vs. Yale (2-5-2) W 27 0
11/24 vs. Dartmouth (4-5) W 13 0

[cosmo here]

Check out Princeton's 1951 schedule, and the rest of their 1950's, 1940's and older schedules. They're basically identical to the schedules they play today. The Heisman wasn't the same back then.

1951-Princeton (Independent)
9/29 vs. New York University (1-7) W 54 20
10/6 @ Navy (2-6-1) W 24 20
10/13 @ Pennsylvania (5-4) W 13 7
10/20 vs. Lafayette (non-IA) W 60 7
10/27 vs. Cornell (6-3) W 53 15
11/3 vs. Brown (2-7) W 12 0
11/10 @ Harvard (3-5-1) W 54 13
11/17 vs. Yale (2-5-2) W 27 0
11/24 vs. Dartmouth (4-5) W 13 0

there wasn't any I-A or I-AA in 1951, Lafayette was Division I with the rest of those schools. It isn't that the Heisman wasn't the same - the Ivy League was different.

[cosmo here]

All I have to do to disprove you is say one word.

One little word.

Ready?



Stanford.



Wow, that was easy.

Your entire argument disproved with one word.

there are 117 I-A (Bowl) schools. very few (Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice) rival the Ivy League. and none of them are confused with national powers.

[bkrownd]

there wasn't any I-A or I-AA in 1951, Lafayette was Division I with the rest of those schools. It isn't that the Heisman wasn't the same - the Ivy League was different.

The "non-IA" is just that web site's way of saying it didn't consider Lafayette "major" enough to store a link to its schedule. The Ivies were not top-level programs by then, and except for Penn they made no effort to compete with top programs on either the regional or national level. After Penn posted back-to-back 0-9 seasons in 54 and 55 they gave it up and gladly retreated into the Ivy Tower as well.

[3yards]

Why are we talking about 1951? I just think the IVY Football players can handle academics and playing postseason if chosen. Certainly would not happen every year. Old arguments do not cut it for me. I am sorry if this topic has been brought up many times before, I am newer to CS Discussion.

[MplsBison]

there are 117 I-A (Bowl) schools. very few (Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice) rival the Ivy League. and none of them are confused with national powers.

Duke isn't a power in football, but certainly basketball.

Stanford and Northwestern have had their days in the football limelight in the last 10 years.


The point is that it certainly can be down without sacrificing athletics.

[Go...gate]

The "non-IA" is just that web site's way of saying it didn't consider Lafayette "major" enough to store a link to its schedule. The Ivies were not top-level programs by then, and except for Penn they made no effort to compete with top programs on either the regional or national level. After Penn posted back-to-back 0-9 seasons in 54 and 55 they gave it up and gladly retreated into the Ivy Tower as well.

Princeton was the #6 ranked FB team in both 1950 and 1951 and actually was voted the 1950 National Championship in one minor national poll. Ivy football was at the top of the NCAA in terms of glamor, tradition and pageantry and could play with, and beat, anyone in those days. It was not unusual, for example, for Cornell to defeat Michigan, Princeton to defeat Navy or Yale to defeat Army (both service academies were also perennial national powers in the 1950's) Moreover, it did not end there. Penn went 0-9 because its administration completly overreacted to the establishment of the Ivy League guidelines to gain admission to the conference after being a national power for half a century. However, Yale, Dartmouth and Princeton continued to have powerful and nationally-ranked football programs through the end of the 1960's.

[Go...gate]

All I have to do to disprove you is say one word.

One little word.

Ready?



Stanford.



Wow, that was easy.

Your entire argument disproved with one word.

Yeah, they have really been powerful the past 4-5 years, and this year's 1-11 team was particularly overwhelming.

[Go...gate]

Why are we talking about 1951? I just think the IVY Football players can handle academics and playing postseason if chosen. Certainly would not happen every year. Old arguments do not cut it for me. I am sorry if this topic has been brought up many times before, I am newer to CS Discussion.

No question about it. You are absolutely correct.

[cosmo here]

Why are we talking about 1951? I just think the IVY Football players can handle academics and playing postseason if chosen. Certainly would not happen every year. Old arguments do not cut it for me. I am sorry if this topic has been brought up many times before, I am newer to CS Discussion.

Dick Kazmaier of Princeton won the Heisman Trophy in 1951.

and I think that if the Ivy League Presidents made their schools eligible for the postseason, there would be at least one and as many as three in the postseason every year. but they've made their position very clear and their recruiting hasn't suffered for it.

[cosmo here]

Princeton was the #6 ranked FB team in both 1950 and 1951 and actually was voted the 1950 National Championship in one minor national poll. Ivy football was at the top of the NCAA in terms of glamor, tradition and pageantry and could play with, and beat, anyone in those days. It was not unusual, for example, for Cornell to defeat Michigan, Princeton to defeat Navy or Yale to defeat Army (both service academies were also perennial national powers in the 1950's) Moreover, it did not end there. Penn went 0-9 because its administration completly overreacted to the establishment of the Ivy League guidelines to gain admission to the conference after being a national power for half a century. However, Yale, Dartmouth and Princeton continued to have powerful and nationally-ranked football programs through the end of the 1960's.

thanks for the research !!

[bkrownd]

The last Ivy to beat a Michigan team with a winning record was Penn in 1917. Yale beat Army once, in 1955. (not one of Army's better years) Navy was inconsistent in the 1950's, and terrible before 52. The Navy teams Princeton beat were 3-6-0 and 2-6-1. The ivies could play an occasional game, but they were off the national map by then. They were definitely far from "the top" and with the exception of Penn they kept to regional games. The point for this thread is that they haven't played competetively on the nation scale in a long long long time.

[Go...gate]

The last Ivy to beat a Michigan team with a winning record was Penn in 1917. Yale beat Army once, in 1955. (not one of Army's better years) Navy was inconsistent in the 1950's, and terrible before 52. The Navy teams Princeton beat were 3-6-0 and 2-6-1. The ivies could play an occasional game, but they were off the national map by then. They were definitely far from "the top" and with the exception of Penn they kept to regional games. The point for this thread is that they haven't played competetively on the nation scale in a long long long time.

1951: Cornell 20, Michigan 7.

[bkrownd]

1951: Cornell 20, Michigan 7.

That's a 4-5 Michigan. I said "with a winning record", if you read what I wrote.

[Go...gate]

The last Ivy to beat a Michigan team with a winning record was Penn in 1917. Yale beat Army once, in 1955. (not one of Army's better years) Navy was inconsistent in the 1950's, and terrible before 52. The Navy teams Princeton beat were 3-6-0 and 2-6-1. The ivies could play an occasional game, but they were off the national map by then. They were definitely far from "the top" and with the exception of Penn they kept to regional games. The point for this thread is that they haven't played competetively on the nation scale in a long long long time.

Army #20 AP, #15 UPI in 1955.

Yale leads the all-time series with Army (scheduled to resume on 2009 at West Point and 2010 in New Haven), 21-16-1.

[blukeys]

And Ed Marinaro, Cornell '72, was runner up for the Heisman in 1971, finishing a bit behind Pat Sullivan. Marinaro led the nation in rushing in 1971 and 1970.

He was also great on Hill Street Blues!!!

[bkrownd]

Wish we could get Yale on our schedule. :/

[YaleFootballFan]

Wish we could get Yale on our schedule. :/

I'm sure Don Brown would love to! He was Yale's defensive coordinator from 1987-92 under Carm Cozza.

[YaleFootballFan]

You got it. He was not, however, the last Ivy League Heisman "finalist."

If I'm not mistaken, Yale's Rich Diana was the Ivy's last Heisman finalist. That was in 1981.

[DFW HOYA]

Per its media guide, Yale will play Georgetown in its season openers from 2007 through 2012 and has a 2 for 1 with Army in 2010, 2012 and 2014.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/yale/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2006MediaGuidePDF.pdf

[VT Wildcat Fan53]

And Ed Marinaro, Cornell '72, was runner up for the Heisman in 1971, finishing a bit behind Pat Sullivan. Marinaro led the nation in rushing in 1971 and 1970.

Gee, you didn't by any chance have a chance to tackle him once or twice, did you? :thumbsup:

I was actually in attendance back in the day for a confrontation with Cornell up at Dartmouth. I think Marinaro gained something like 165 yards on the ground, but the Big Green (actually, the "Indians" back then) won the game if my feeble memory serves me correctly.

I also think that Mark Allen was the Big Red QB -- great player out of Seymour, CT. (I later had the honor of playing with his brother Jeff and a neighboring Yankee Conference school.) Steve Stetson -- another Ivy All-Time great -- led Dartmouth at QB, right?

All in all, those were pretty heady days for the Ancient 8!

[Green26]

Tackled him more than a few times. In the game you probably saw, recovered his fumble. Also chased him down and tackled him as he scored on a 44 yard run later in the game. Since ABC covered the game, and this was his second longest run of the season, the play was shown scores of time on tv in the lead-up to the Heisman. He got 177 yards in 44 carries. He stayed with us at our summer house at Flathead Lake, Montana 2 summers ago. Hope to sit with him at the Ivy football dinner in NYC in January. Stetson got his first start that day against Cornell, and was our player of the game, I believe.

Were you on the first UNH team to beat Dartmouth? Now, the tables are turned between those two schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Ivy League thing is very complicated. It is not a unified front against the playoffs, but it is an uneasy alliance between two factions, both of which don't really think FCS football has any value:

1) The schools who have presidents that couldn't dream of competing in today's D-I football world without the caps on athletic budgets that FCS offers (read: Dartmouth, Cornell, Columbia, Brown)

2) The schools who have presidents that still, somehow, in their heart of hearts think it would be better to stay as a I-A school and play in the occasional bowl (read: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn)

This #2 is the most interesting. It's the same disease that plagues Army and Navy - these "delusions of grandeur" that their 2-9 or 6-5 teams that sneak into the lower echelons of the D-I rankings will do wonders for their national profile. Remember, Army, Navy, and the Ivies recruit nationally and internationally for recruits, something that many schools cannot dream of doing. (To a lesser extent this also applies to SWAC schools.)

The Ivy uneasily remains in FCS because they don't want to jettison their lower-spending schools and go the route of Army or Navy. But the current mission of the Ivy doesn't really involve the FCS playoffs with either of the two factions. To them, I feel it's either play I-A, or play cost-containment, and to hell with your silly playoffs.

The powers-that-be in don't put any value into it - to their detriment, in my opinion. All you need to do is look at the Patriot League (and, specifically, the Lehigh/Lafayette rivalry) to see what the playoffs can do for a league and a rivalry. Fifteen years ago, Lehigh/Lafayette was all about getting piss-drunk and going after some goalpasts - and who cares who wins the game. Now? It's a national event that has radically shifted the focus of the game to titles and pride - and has awakened the sleeping contingent of Lafayette fans. There is no question the games in the past three years have been fantastic for the league (even though Lehigh has lost all three), and IMO has saved the rivalry from being a cute backwater game into a game of national importance. "The Rivalry" has never been healthier.

When I look at Harvard/Yale, I see what Lehigh/Lafayette used to be. A celebration of drinking with lots of people not giving a rat's ass about who wins or loses. Even though this year's game meant Yale had a chance to share the Ivy title, few knew about it aside from hardcore Harvard or Yale fans.

The two Ivy factions think the following about Harvard/Yale: 1) it's fine the way it is, in obscurity, or 2) others think that it should be a "big-time" game like Army/Navy. Until the Ivy presidents are smart enough to think of option 3) if the Ivies elected to be in the FCS playoffs, Harvard/Yale would become bigger and a more positive experience simply by default, they'll still let the Ivy League and this great rivalry slide into obscurity.

[carney2]

Well, done, LFN. Is this Ivy split that you speak of real or only suspected based on results?

[VT Wildcat Fan53]

Lehigh Nation, Excellent insights. I hadn't really considered the "Split" between the Presidents (who, after all, drive every football decision, heck with AD's or blue ribbon commissions,...).

I had thought that all the Ivy Presidents were simply just neurotically fearful that football, if given an inch (for example: an 11th game, much less a playoff opportunity), would overrun the kingdom with power and prestige all around campus and within the extended alumni networks.

As you know, even in D3, the NESCAC Presidents stick it to football in the same way, but usually under the guise that kids need to get acclimated to the academic environment so therefore extended fall seasons and/or playoffs are not appropriate. Ask any NESCAC Coach about the reality of that, however, and the real underlying reasons (eg: Ivy-like fears). The thin veil falls apart immediately since all other all fall season sports such as soccer, field hockey, XC, .... all participate in D3 National Tournaments -- just like all the other D1 Ivy fall season sports programs participate in their National Tournaments. Sounds like something the NFF & CFHOF needs to work on at the lower levels of College football, ....

Now, if you want to really expose the duplicity and groundlessness of the argument, let's talk D1 hockey which runs from October until early April or even D3 hockey which runs from November until mid-March. I guess hockey has always been the property of the Preps and the Ivies, however, so it is OK to exploit those kids and put them at academic risk, .....

[MplsBison]

Yeah, they have really been powerful the past 4-5 years, and this year's 1-11 team was particularly overwhelming.

Non sequitur.

The point was that you could have a 85 scholarship BCS football team without sacrificing athletics.

[Go...gate]

Great post, LFN. :thumbsup:

[DFW HOYA]

Good column, but I don't understand the following item:


Remember, Army, Navy, and the Ivies recruit nationally and internationally for recruits, something that many schools cannot dream of doing. (To a lesser extent this also applies to SWAC schools.)

If you're thinking Grambling or Southern in specific, the rest of the SWAC schools really aren't recruiting nationally.

The I-A issue in the Northeast isn't going away whether of not the Ivies are a part of it. I've thought that one of the real threats out there is some sort of low-level Eastern I-A startup conference with the likes of Temple, Buffalo, Army, Navy, and 4-5 other schools that could promise the schools a bargain basement bowl game or two. (Heck, even the Sun Belt gets a bowl game.)

If the chance at a minimal I-A schedule and a chance at a bowl payout was there, would teams like UMass, JMU, Villanova, etc. take a look? Would a PL school or two do likewise?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If you're thinking Grambling or Southern in specific, the rest of the SWAC schools really aren't recruiting nationally.

I don't think Grambling and Southern are doing national recruiting in the same fashion as the Ivies or Army/Navy, but through their HBCU "classics" in different areas (for example: Mississippi Valley State played Ark-PB in Chicago, IL this year, and others were in Detroit and other non-SWAC locations) have the same function as national recruiting outside the south. The MEAC does the same thing by itself (NY Urban League Classic) and in conjunction with the SWAC (MEAC/SWAC challenge, where Hampton played Grambling State this year) in neutral areas for "recruiting" purposes. Basically, recruiting is a SWAC-level activity, not a school-level activity.

The difference is the MEAC plays the classics and also plays in the playoffs, where the SWAC plays some Thanksgiving (Bayou Classic), post-thanksgiving (Alcorn State/GSU) and their championship game, proving that it can be done in the context of the playoffs.


The I-A issue in the Northeast isn't going away whether or not the Ivies are a part of it. I've thought that one of the real threats out there is some sort of low-level Eastern I-A startup conference with the likes of Temple, Buffalo, Army, Navy, and 4-5 other schools that could promise the schools a bargain basement bowl game or two. (Heck, even the Sun Belt gets a bowl game.)

If the chance at a minimal I-A schedule and a chance at a bowl payout was there, would teams like UMass, JMU, Villanova, etc. take a look? Would a PL school or two do likewise?

An interesting observation, but... the only I-A conference that will be created would be one with TV audiences in mind. Temple (Philly), Army (nominally NYC), Navy (nominally DC), Buffalo are four teams. The existing FCS teams that have a chance to enter the equation would be mostly CAA schools (UMass, Delaware, JMU), and that's being kind - but they don't really add anything in TV. Only Umass might nominally bring in the Boston TV share.

In the PL, I think the only possibility would be Lehigh, and even that would be a major stretch, considering that one of the caveats on them joining the league would be dragging Lafayette in with them. And Lehigh and/or Lafayette doesn't bring in any TV.

Finally, the bowl would be the equivalent of the "New Orleans Bowl" today, a who-cares bowl with a nominal payout as it struggles to find sponsorship.

[bkrownd]

1) The schools who have presidents that couldn't dream of competing in today's D-I football world without the caps on athletic budgets that FCS offers (read: Dartmouth, Cornell, Columbia, Brown)


But Dartmouth and Cornell have been pretty good within recent memory... :confused:

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Since folks seemed to like my Ivy league rant on here, I took a couple thoughts from here, a few others from my earlier rant against the NY Times, and made it into a blog posting. How about that?

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com