The Delaware Wing-T

[Go...gate]

Any thoughts as to why this has fallen into disuse? I always thought it was a very effective offensive formation. In fact, Lehigh and Colgate (both coached by Fred Dunlap, who I believe had coached under Dave Nelson) used it to great success.

[BBB]

To me it's kinda like the option. Coaches got smarter and with the speed of defenses it's hard to run it with success. Plus, it's hard to get those game breaking backs to run. I mean you gotta have some HORSES to run that offense.

Finally and correct me if I'm wrong, alot of QBs aren't trying to be in a offense where you're running more than you're throwing.

[Eagle_77]

I may be wrong but I believe that it is because of a coaching change and new coaching style.

[Eagle_77]

To me it's kinda like the option. Coaches got smarter and with the speed of defenses it's hard to run it with success. Plus, it's hard to get those game breaking backs to run. I mean you gotta have some HORSES to run that offense.


Finally and correct me if I'm wrong, alot of QBs aren't trying to be in a offense where you're running more than you're throwing.

GSU doesnt seem to have to much trouble with it.

[blukeys]

I mean you gotta have some HORSES to run that offense.


Actually the system is great for a team with average backs as the load tends to be distributed evenly amongst them. However, the backs do have to be proficient at blocking.

To answer your question though Gate. The wing-T (invented by Dave Nelson) is still very popular at the High school level. It really depends on which version of the Wing T you are asking about. The 50's version I last saw when Eddie Robinson was still coaching Grambling. In the 70's UD added the option plays to the offense and really added to the offense's effectiveness

If you want to see a very good version of the 90's Delaware wing-t go to a Wofford game. Watching Wofford was just like watching Delaware 1991 to 1995. Navy ran some effective wing t plays against UD the last 2 years.

I think the reason we see less of it is that there are more capable quarterbacks and receivers coming out of high schools making a passing offense more practical. In addition, I have seen a huge change in the interpretation of holding rules in the last few years which I think favors pass blocking over run blocking.

[PapaBear]

Two reasons the DWT is falling out of use in college (IMHO)...

First, defenses are more disciplined and athletic than they were when the DWT came about. DWT relies on defenders who trust their eyes rather than their coached defensive assignments. It also can't account for big, powerful, fast OLBs and DEs (Lawrence or Jason Taylor-types) pass-rushing from the backside. When the DWT was invented, a defensive end was just a defensive tackle only 2 inches taller. It was easy to "log" him with a G or T pulling all the way from playside, while the QB rolled out behind him. MUCH tougher to do against today's corner passrushers.

Second, today's RBs and RECs bring speed and cutting ability that allow them to challenge one-on-one defenders in the wide open. To take advantage of those talents, teams have to come out of the traditionally "compressed" offensive sets that the DWT relies on for its base plays.

It remains a great offense for HS because you don't have to have great backs to run it. The misdirection and deceptiveness of the plays, themselves, makes average backs look good.

I still love to watch teams run it. And you still see colleges use elements of the DWT in their offenses, whether it's inside/counter handoffs, "waggle"-type play action passes, or those basic FB belly/dives.

[bunny]

I agree with PapaBear... today's defenses are much more disciplined and athletic (and faster and stronger). This makes it hard to execute the Wing-T which relies on misdirection and shoulder blocking.

For more info check out the Bucksweep website (http://www.bucksweep.com/) & their message board (http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=bucksweep).

[GannonFan]

IMO, I almost think it doesn't matter what offense you run - it's all about having great players - if you have great players, almost any offense works. If you have bad personnel, no offense works. When the Wing-T was staffed by good people, it was unstoppable (even against "new" defenses) - when the personnel weren't talented, the offense stumbled. I think you can see the same with Georgia Southern's offense. There's no magic in the formation and the plays, just in the guy's who execute them.

[ngineer]

Actually Dunlap went away from the wing-T in the early 70's when we started our outstanding QB in 1971, Kim McQuilken, and all of a sudden Lehigh became a passing team that has carried forward to today. (yes, there have been a few years with a stronger emphasis on the run) For the past 34 years, Lehigh has been known for a string of good QB's. Obviously our best years have been when we've presented a more balanced attack, the we've never gone back to the wing-T...

[DemiGS]

To me it's kinda like the option. Coaches got smarter and with the speed of defenses it's hard to run it with success. Plus, it's hard to get those game breaking backs to run. I mean you gotta have some HORSES to run that offense.

Finally and correct me if I'm wrong, alot of QBs aren't trying to be in a offense where you're running more than you're throwing.

I'm not sure getting "smarter" is the defensive cure for the T-wing or the GSU style option. I can't speak for the Hens, but at GSU we've been running pretty much the same offense for years. Surely even the most mediocre of defensive coaches could have developed a sure-fire formula for consistently shutting down these offenses if it could be done by formulation alone. As for the faster / more talented defenses developing in I-AA… even when GSU has taken their game to I-A stadiums (UGA X 2, and OSU) in recent years we've done fairly well against their superior athletes.

[Mr. C]

If you want to see a very good version of the 90's Delaware wing-t go to a Wofford game. Watching Wofford was just like watching Delaware 1991 to 1995. Navy ran some effective wing t plays against UD the last 2 years.

While the Wofford Wingbone has some elements of the Delaware Wing T in it, the Wofford offense is more based on the wishbone formation that was run at Wofford and Appalachian State by the innovative Jim Brakefield in the late 1960s and 70s. Mike Ayers was a huge disciple of Brakefield. Another program that bears a strong stamp of Brakefield's influence is Air Force. Fisher DeBerry was a Brakefield player at Wofford and a Brakefield assistant at Wofford and Appalachian State.

[TXST_CAT]

Down in San Marcos, Texas the HC of the HS introduced the wing T or his version of. Turned the program form a thirty year play off absence to playoff contenders year in and out. Almost won district a few times, fastest turn around I ever saw. Went from 1-9 to 8-2 in his first year. Very fun offense there where times we had plays for eighty yards up the middle. Took lots of discipline for the players to execute. The HC just retired but his son is picking up the family business at TXST as the WR's coach.

[bkrownd]

Love those old-school offenses, blocking and battling on the line of scrimmage. I'd like to think this passing stuff is just a passing fad, but with the game being intentionally corrupted to make it more TV-friendly for $$$ I think the days of good fundamental football are probably over for good. :confused:

[Umass74]

I read a quote one time by Vince Lombardi. Someone asked him what would happend if some pro team adopted the wing-t.

He said "It would embarrass the bleep out of us!" :)

[blukeys]

While the Wofford Wingbone has some elements of the Delaware Wing T in it, the Wofford offense is more based on the wishbone formation that was run at Wofford and Appalachian State by the innovative Jim Brakefield in the late 1960s and 70s. Mike Ayers was a huge disciple of Brakefield. Another program that bears a strong stamp of Brakefield's influence is Air Force. Fisher DeBerry was a Brakefield player at Wofford and a Brakefield assistant at Wofford and Appalachian State.
I understand Mr. C. But the Delaware wing-t of the early 90's was run by excellent option QB's in Bill Vergantino and Leo Hamlett. You could say that Delaware was an option team during this period. Delaware would change the focus of their offense depending on the strengths of it's personnel. Coaches frequently "borrow" from other systems and Tubby Raymond borrowed heavily from option teams.

When I saw Wofford in '03 I was amazed how similar their formations, plays and blocking schemes looked to previous UD teams particularly the ones that ran the option well.

[blukeys]

Love those old-school offenses, blocking and battling on the line of scrimmage. I'd like to think this passing stuff is just a passing fad, but with the game being intentionally corrupted to make it more TV-friendly for $$$ I think the days of good fundamental football are probably over for good. :confused:
Sorry to say I have to agree with you 100% :confused:

[FL connection]

The Wing is a great equalizer in high school, with misdirection and angle blocking........As you go up the ladder, athleticism becomes the a problem in executing. On the line of scrimmage, a good basis in the Wing philosophy is effective anytime you break into the new "spread" schemes......connection out!

[dungeonjoe]

While the Wofford Wingbone has some elements of the Delaware Wing T in it, the Wofford offense is more based on the wishbone formation that was run at Wofford and Appalachian State by the innovative Jim Brakefield in the late 1960s and 70s. Mike Ayers was a huge disciple of Brakefield. Another program that bears a strong stamp of Brakefield's influence is Air Force. Fisher DeBerry was a Brakefield player at Wofford and a Brakefield assistant at Wofford and Appalachian State.

Mr. C is right on here. Maybe it is old school and not as flashy, but as one of the GSU folks have said, if it is so high school why is it so hard to defend? That is true especially if a team (like GSU) has several talented and team minded players that can add numerous possibilities to the option.

The problem Wofford has is that many times teams know the Terriers will rarely pass which shuts down an impotant option. Of course when they do, it usually catches a db flatfooted.

[Marcus Garvey]

Obviously our best years have been when we've presented a more balanced attack, the we've never gone back to the wing-T...

Under John Whitehead and his successor, Hank Small, Lehigh ran a "modified" Wing-T. In fact, high school football coaches in the Lehigh Valley used to "intern" on the Lehigh staff for a few years. This would teach them how to coach and introduced them to the Wing-T. The two best examples were Chuck Sonon (left Becahi for Lehigh, then became head coach at Emmaus and later Becahi again) and Jim Morgans (Allentown Cent. Catholic, Salisbury, Freedom, etc...).

I played for Walt Whithead (John's son) for one year (who, btw, was a jack-a$$). He installed the Wing-T at Liberty High. Unfortunately, his successor was an even bigger jack-a$$ and ditched it. What I remeber about Walt's brief tenure was the film sessions. When he was installing the new offense, he used to show films of Lehigh running the very same plays he wanted us to run.

[RadMann]

I recall from the articles before UD played Wofford in the playoffs a few years back that the Wofford coach noted that his offense was part traditional option and part Delaware Wing T. The Wofford coach even acknowledged that he had met with Coach Raymond in the early 1990's in his goal of incorporating Wing T elelements into his system.

"The Terriers run a lot of option out of their Wing-Bone offense. Coach Mike Ayers’ team ran the wishbone when it came to Wofford and after a visit with Tubby Raymond in the early 1990s incorporated some Wing-T to form its present offense."

The Newark Post (http://www.ncbl.com/post/archives/1212-03index.html)

[dungeonjoe]

I recall from the articles before UD played Wofford in the playoffs a few years back that the Wofford coach noted that his offense was part traditional option and part Delaware Wing T. The Wofford coach even acknowledged that he had met with Coach Raymond in the early 1990's in his goal of incorporating Wing T elelements into his system.

"The Terriers run a lot of option out of their Wing-Bone offense. Coach Mike Ayers’ team ran the wishbone when it came to Wofford and after a visit with Tubby Raymond in the early 1990s incorporated some Wing-T to form its present offense."

The Newark Post (http://www.ncbl.com/post/archives/1212-03index.html)

Wofford's current offense utilizes elements from several sources (as I think we are all saying). How does Georgia Southern's offensive style compare with the Wing-T and the variation Wofford uses?

[Go...gate]

Agreed that it is "old school", but I also think the players make a difference at any level. IMHO, Delaware could have stayed with it and continued to be highly successful.

Navy has elements of the Wing-T in Johnson's offense (which is GSU's 'bone with some variations). The last couple years, they could move the ball on anyone.

I love the pass, but the discipline, condition and coordinated efficiency needed to run a quality ground game is also to be admired, as it reflects the most basic elements of football.

[Eagle_77]

Wofford's current offense utilizes elements from several sources (as I think we are all saying). How does Georgia Southern's offensive style compare with the Wing-T and the variation Wofford uses?

Georgia Southern's offense is like the Wing-T only in the formation and blocking. There is very little to no misdirection in GSU's offense. The Wing-T slot backs are very running back like in size and speed. GSU's slots usually are faster thinner players that can double as wide recievers. I also believe that the Full back in the Wing-T is lined up deeper than GSU's Full back.

[BBB]

GSU doesnt seem to have to much trouble with it.
GaSU is the exception, not the rule. It's a offense that doesn't produce alot of NFL backs.

[BBB]

I'm not sure getting "smarter" is the defensive cure for the T-wing or the GSU style option. I can't speak for the Hens, but at GSU we've been running pretty much the same offense for years. Surely even the most mediocre of defensive coaches could have developed a sure-fire formula for consistently shutting down these offenses if it could be done by formulation alone. As for the faster / more talented defenses developing in I-AA… even when GSU has taken their game to I-A stadiums (UGA X 2, and OSU) in recent years we've done fairly well against their superior athletes.


I said coaches getting smarter PLUS the defenses having alot more speed. A coach can be smart as a whip but if doesn't have the talent then........

To be honest, I think it CAN be successful. The problem is that today's athlete doesn't see it as a offense that can get you into the pros.

By the way, I never said that Ga.Southen couldn't run it. I also KNOW of your success.

[eaglesrthe1]

The problem is that today's athlete doesn't see it as a offense that can get you into the pros.

Today's coaches don't see it as an offense that can get them to the pros, either.

[BBB]

Today's coaches don't see it as an offense that can get them to the pros, either.


THAT IS VERY TRUE.

Oh and I don't want my comments to seem like a diss towards your program.

[eaglesrthe1]

Oh and I don't want my comments to seem like a diss towards your program.

I don't take it as a diss. IMO, it's why these types of offenses are falling into disuse. Not because of athleticism or speed, but because it isn't a stepping stone to the next level, at least on offense.

I still think that when it's well run, it's a thing of beauty.

[Mr. C]

One of the things I love about I-AA is the diversity you see among offenses. I love watching the Georgia Southern spread option (or the variants of it run by Rhode Island, Nicholls State and Bucknell). I love watching Wofford's Wingbone. I liked seeing The Citadel trying to control the ball with Charlie Taefe's Wishbone. It's fun watching the Appalachian State no-huddle spread passing attack and teams like Southeast Louisiana with their run and shoot. I felt the same way about Tubby Raymond's version of the Wing T. You never know when some team will come out on Any Given Saturday and pull out an offense that someone hasn't seen in years. I remember Jerry Moore dusting off a variation of Chuck Fairbanks' Oklahoma Stack-I from the early 1970s a couple of years back. You will see unbalanced lines and even T-Formation or Single Wing sets at times. The folks in I-A wouldn't dare show so much variation for fear of being criticized. Another of the many reasons to love I-AA.

[blukeys]

Amen to that Mr. C :beerchug: :beerchug:

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think it's falling more into disuse basically since defensive lines have caught up with offensive lines in terms of ability, and offensive lines are more than ever relying on bulk rather than athleticism.

I have a question. Let's say you have a pair of 300 lb tackles and 2 280 lb guards, and you are thinking about installing a Wing-T variation. Is it more difficult to teach your lineman to do the necessary blocking schemes than, say, pure dropback passing? I would feel like it would be tough to have 300 lb tackles have all the athleticism necessary that can handle all that. Of course, there will be the occasional exceptional "dream athlete" that could, but I'm thinking that the Wing-T needs special athletes on the line.

[MR. CHICKEN]

AH HEARD TUBBY SAY ONCE..."DAT HIS OFFENSIVE LINE HAD 5 BLOCK OPTIONS FOR EVERY PLAY DELAWARE RAN....DEPENDIN' ON DUH DEFENSIVE SCHEME"!........MOST STARTERS ON HIS O-LINE WERE ALWAYS JUNIORS OR SENIORS.....TOOK THEM THAT LONG TA MASTER THE BLOCKING SCHEMES!...................BAWK!

AH THINK DELAWARE WOULD DO JUST FINE IF THEY STILL RAN THE WING-T.......THE IMPROVED SPEED OF DEFENSES WOULD PLAY RIGHT INTO THE HANDS OF OUR DECEPTION....THAT'S WHAT COUNTER PLAYS ARE DESIGNED TO NEGATE.....SPEEDY D'S!.........HOWEVERAH...JIM REID...FORMER RICHMOND CEO......ALWAYS GAVE US UH HARD TIME....AS HE IS UH DEFENSIVE GENIUS......MET HIM ONCE AT THE AWAY TEAM GATE AS HE CAME OUT FOR WARM-UPS...AND IS VERY PERSONABLE!

[BBB]

I don't take it as a diss. IMO, it's why these types of offenses are falling into disuse. Not because of athleticism or speed, but because it isn't a stepping stone to the next level, at least on offense.

I still think that when it's well run, it's a thing of beauty.

You're so right and I agree when it's run well, it's beautiful to watch. I coach middle school ball and I run a form of the wing-T/Triple Option. It's great at that level because it forces the defense to do TOO MUCH THINKING and when it's run well we're up the field before the defense figures it out.


I wish teams would run it alot more. Heck, I wish Howard ran it. We have the backs.

[UD1993]

[QUOTE=BBB]You're so right and I agree when it's run well, it's beautiful to watch.

How true. Even after I graduated UD I always sat at the top of the student section. For me, it was always the best place to watch a Wing-T play develop.

[Go...gate]

Under Neil Wheelright in the early 1970's, prior to adopting the Wing-T under Fred Dunlap, Colgate ran a great Wishbone with Tom Parr at QB and Mark VanEeghen at FB and later with Bruce Basile at QB, Pat Healy at FB and Henry White at HB. They could move the ball on anybody and it was a hoot to watch. Ryan Vena also used a lot of Wishbone looks in his time.

[Kill'em]

IMO, I almost think it doesn't matter what offense you run - it's all about having great players - if you have great players, almost any offense works. If you have bad personnel, no offense works. When the Wing-T was staffed by good people, it was unstoppable (even against "new" defenses) - when the personnel weren't talented, the offense stumbled. I think you can see the same with Georgia Southern's offense. There's no magic in the formation and the plays, just in the guy's who execute them.
You're right. Erk Russell used to boast our playbook had only 6 base plays. If you look at the plays, they're simple. It's the players who have the hard part. All of them have certain reads and it takes time. How ironic, such a simple offense can take so long to understand and perfect.

[Marcus Garvey]

I have a question. Let's say you have a pair of 300 lb tackles and 2 280 lb guards, and you are thinking about installing a Wing-T variation. Is it more difficult to teach your lineman to do the necessary blocking schemes than, say, pure dropback passing? I would feel like it would be tough to have 300 lb tackles have all the athleticism necessary that can handle all that. Of course, there will be the occasional exceptional "dream athlete" that could, but I'm thinking that the Wing-T needs special athletes on the line.

Assuming you have OT's and G's that big AND athletic enough to run the Wing-T, then I would, provided they were smart enough to run it. I only played in a Wing-T one year in high school. We had linemen who were bigger and stronger than the guys in front of them on the depth chart. The reason being that the big guys just couldn't seem to learn the damn plays.

You can be big, strong and fast, but if you have a 10¢ brain, then you're pretty useless to any football team!

[WR7]

I heard that Wing T doesnt give the ball to receivers so much so Im not a big fan of it