Lehigh @ #11 James Madison - A Game Thread

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Game Preview:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/09/game-preview-lehigh-at-james-madison.html

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Game Breakdown and Fearless Prediction:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/09/game-breakdown-lehigh-at-james-madison.html

Everyone's talking about Lafayette@Delaware so much, they've forgotten about this game. Hopefully JMU has, too....

[RichH2]

Hard to be overly optimistic after reading preview. Depending on who you read,we are 17-21 pt underdogs. Wel
We'll give'em a game. A W would be great and a huge upset. If we come out of the game with no serious injuries and D retains its confidence going forward,not gonna complain.

[JMU2004]

One thing is obvious to me is that LFN runs probably the best FCS blog. Wow

[RichH2]

One thing is obvious to me is that LFN runs probably the best FCS blog. Wow
+1 Yup.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I have to say I've been very impressed with JMU's Sports Information AND the independent JMU fan community as well. I won't print all the links but it's impressive stuff. Especially liked the DNR's photo albums of Morehead State/JMU.

http://photos.dnronline.com/?p=12219

Of course, the fan community is wrong about one thing. Lehigh invented Beiruit. What's beer pong?

http://jmusportsblog.com/?p=7955

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

90% chance of rain. Heavy rain and T-storms. The game could be delayed (slated to start at 4PM) if the weather prognosis comes true. It looks like things should pass through by the evening. Fingers crossed for better than expected weather.

I saw a line that JMU is favored -22.5. That's a bit crazy to me. Given the history of these two teams, I know it will be much closer than that. JMU's offense will put up numbers, no doubt, but I don't see Lehigh get crushed 42-20. 35-24 seems more likely to me.

EDIT: I wish the game were played today - GORGEOUS September fall weather! C'est la vie...

[RootinFerDukes]

The storm tomorrow is at its peak at 4pm based on the current forecast. I recommend checking the facebook page or twitter account of jmusports for updates on any potential delays. It is a decent possibility.

https://www.facebook.com/JMUSports?fref=ts
https://twitter.com/JMUSports

[RichH2]

The storm tomorrow is at its peak at 4pm based on the current forecast. I recommend checking the facebook page or twitter account of jmusports for updates on any potential delays. It is a decent possibility.

https://www.facebook.com/JMUSports?fref=ts
https://twitter.com/JMUSports
Well,that sucks.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The storm tomorrow is at its peak at 4pm based on the current forecast. I recommend checking the facebook page or twitter account of jmusports for updates on any potential delays. It is a decent possibility.

https://www.facebook.com/JMUSports?fref=ts
https://twitter.com/JMUSports

I'll have my rain gear ready! I'm hoping against a delay for the simple fact that I don't want to miss much of the Temple-Cincy game.

No matter the weather I'm pumped! I'm considering driving halfway tonight to make for a little more relaxing day tomorrow.

[ngineer]

Glad I'll be nice and comfy with my computer and popcorn. Had originally thought of driving down and back tomorrow, with the idea of getting home around midnight. Based on this a much longer night. I think the boys can give them a game if the OC and DC puts them in position to execute. I think we need to take some risks on both sides of the ball, but not nutso stuff. Have to pick your places. My two picks are JMU 35-17 (80%) or Lehigh 31-28 (20%).

[ngineer]

Very nice write up. Certainly an uphill slog, but it can be done.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I watched last year's game. It was first chance to see Shafnisky at qb and I was impressed. The game was exciting, Lehigh's to lose and I would not have predicted the kind of season the Brown had. Last year I thought JMU may have taken Lehigh lightly. I wish the Hawks well tomorrow.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Hopefully everyone makes it there safe! I'm pulled off of 81 in Inwood, WV due to a crazy storm.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

In my seat ready for KO! Looks like a late arriving crowd. Weather looks pretty good...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

JMU right down the field. LU needs to react to their tempo...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

TD Lehigh on second play from scrimmage! Dom's got wheels!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh has to tackle in space...

[Engineer86]

Tackling is better than last yer but still needs to improve. Robb is weak against the pass second week in a row

[Engineer86]

Run run sack, crappy punt jmu starts at our 36

- - - Updated - - -

Sack fumble LU ball

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I think JMU got away with a blantant offensive PI on 3rd down...

[Engineer86]

Lee is still not a great passer played the same way last year

[Engineer86]

6-7 on third downs including two 3rd and 13

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That was a brutal defensive posession. LU had them dead twice....

[Engineer86]

Tats it trick them with a run up the middle

[Engineer86]

Shad has to learn to look pass first

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, time to go to Taps. This is brutal.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

And the rout is on. Pelletier drops an easy pass that woukd have been a big play then a blocked punt for a TD

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh had a first down but the wr hessitated so LU forced to punt....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

This is way worse than anyone thought.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh gets to JMU 9 but Shaf picked in the EZ for a touchback....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

JMU goes right down the field for a TD....

38-7 JMU 3:24 2Q

[van]

guess we're making Morehead look good

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not good

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

All i can say is at least it's no pouring....well at least literally....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Well Lehigh didn't screw that up. TD Hawks

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Now 38-14 but Cavenas is out on defense. Very bad news for Lehigh.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Looked like a concussion or just a stinger for Cavenas.

The tackling in space is terrible. Lehigh has guys in position but they're getting destroyed...

[Lehigh'98]

I think Lehigh's coaches are continuing to do a very poor job. The OC is lost and Coen doesn't seem to be able to help them. Defense is poor, but O and ST doing it no favors. 3-8, 4-7 at best

[RichH2]

A true butt whooping. Tackling is abysmal. Guys in position but JMU going right thru first defender.Back 5 seemingly clueless on how to finish tackles. Injuries piling up. Caveness hopefully a stinger. Without him ,Dline disappears

[LUHawker]

Happy Feet, I mean, Shaf, has an alligator arm passing motion - everything is short-armed. With this blow-out, let's see Mayes for a bit. Also, could we have a more vanilla playbook? So far, Folmar reminds me of Trey. Maybe Andy has run his course, because there is no "out coaching" going on.

[RichH2]

Happy Feet, I mean, Shaf, has an alligator arm passing motion - everything is short-armed. With this blow-out, let's see Mayes for a bit. Also, could we have a more vanilla playbook? So far, Folmar reminds me of Trey. Maybe Andy has run his course, because there is no "out coaching" going on.
Agree,Folmar keeping to vanilla. Relies exclusively on out talenting D. Not gonna happen vs JMU.

[Doc QB]

Folmar must go. He is not taking what JMU defense giving him. Soft corners on cover two is a hitch pass all the way down field until they adjust. U dont run out cuts into endzone in a hard corner, especially when they dont respect your speed. If they roll up, go up top, just once, let 'em know you'll take a shot. They bring five or more? There's the screen? Delays, dinks and dunksnout of backfield or TE? I was a career f'n back up at LU and could call a better game than this joker. Cecchini kept us in games like this based on scheme...wouldnt win here, but he'd make it a game

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Throw it downfield!

[RichH2]

Well opened up playbook a bit.

[RichH2]

[QUOTE=Doc QB;2250131]Folmar must go. He is not taking what JMU defense giving him. Soft corners on cover two is a hitch pass all the way down field until they adjust. U dont run out cuts into endzone in a hard corner, especially when they dont respect your speed. If they roll up, go up top, just once, let 'em know you'll take a shot. They bring five or more? There's the screen? Delays, dinks and dunksnout of backfield or TE? I was a career f'n back up at LU and could call a better game than this joker. Cecchini kept us in games like this based on scheme...wouldnt win here, but he'd make it a game[/QUOTE

+1 , Nick short arming throws . Nothing downfield. Why?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh should have 10-14 more points. JMU is clearly better but it's not that decisive. This is similar but a little worse than Lafayette-W&M....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Well maybe not...good grief defense....

[RichH2]

Well,Caveness out Dline a sieve.

[van]

at least we're keeping their punter off the field

[LU73]

Here comes their punter. Anything else for which you would like to wish?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Here comes their punter. Anything else for which you would like to wish?

A pass completion where the ball travels more than 25 yards vertically down the field....

[bulldog10jw]

A pass completion where the ball travels more than 25 yards vertically down the field....

I know coaches say we want to go down the field vertically, but it is really horizontally. Vertically is straight up.

[RichH2]

A pass completion where the ball travels more than 25 yards vertically down the field....
Apparently vertical passing is not in our playbook.
Oh what crap,onside KO by JMU

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

JMU onside kick up 48-17? Thats weak....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Aight i've had enough. Time to leave....

[PAllen]

Glad to see the return of the Hank Small era. Unfortunately, it's only the Hank Small defense. The offense is MIA. Is it too soon to start talking to a certain former OC about a head coaching position in a scholarship conference.

Well, there's my lightning delay. Just came two quarters too late.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Are they just going to call the game?

[PAllen]

Are they just going to call the game?

They should. Hey, then all the JMU fans can then go catch their NASCAR car in action.

[Doc QB]

Are we Morehead State?

[PAllen]

If we see our starters again after this delay, then there need to be serious questions asked of our coaches. About the only thing that we can salvage from the rest of this game when it continues is experience for our backups.

And we sure as heck are playing like Moorehead State.

[citdog]

If we see our starters again after this delay, then there need to be serious questions asked of our coaches. About the only thing that we can salvage from the rest of this game when it continues is experience for our backups.

And we sure as heck are playing like Moorehead State.

Forehead and le high have something in common. Neither could beat VMI.

[hawkineer]

Is it too soon to start talking to a certain former OC about a head coaching position in a scholarship conference.
I don't think it is. Andy has assembled this coaching staff including the OC. Andy's two best season were clearly traceable to an excellent OC and an excellent DC. Andy may be a good coordinator, but maybe not so much a HC. Fordham and Bucknell clearly demonstrate what can happen with an excellent HC in what were floundering programs.

Anybody know what Kevin Higgins is doing these days? He certainly brought passion to the program and his teams routinely overachieved. Let's hope that Andy is on a short leash. Another 3-8 or 4-7 should be the straw that breaks the AC's back.

[ngineer]

Well, the lightning delay allows me to leave the JMU.edu (always afraid about not being able to 'get back'). We've given them a 'few' points with the turnovers, but I agree the most bothersome thing to me has been the lousy tackling. Many times we get initial hit on the Duke in the backfield or at LOS, but the back goes another 5, 10, 15 yards more. No ability to run in the traditional manner, but with over 300 yards in offense some things were working. Let's be honest, this JMU team is championship caliber. We have are a lot younger in experience and physical maturity and it shows. I don't see any PL team beating JMU. Fordham might give them a game..we'll see how they do with 'nova.

Interesting comment: this is not an official game,yet. If lightning continues, etc. it becomes a "no contest"!! Assuming they come back, concerns over more injuries arise. concerned over the the number of injuries to the D side of the line. Depth is a problem now.

Final Q--why the onsides kick? Dropped my jaw. You gotta be kidding me. I thought Withers was a classy guy. That causes me to reconsider. I would like to see an explanation from him. Teams coming back out.

[van]

maybe withers has a lot $ riding on this game and wants to be sure they beat the spread

[RichH2]

So far,other than 5 WR sets, Folmar has shown me little. He does not seem able to adjust his play calls or his O to take what JMU was giving. His only answer is WR screens which went no where. Nice to se Brad in now.

[Southsider]

................and LFN wants to play LSU.......please. Coen needs to find a new gig. We are going in reverse.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

................and LFN wants to play LSU.......please. Coen needs to find a new gig. We are going in reverse.

I do still want to play LSU.

[Doc QB]

Sadly, as I almost correctly predicted, what we learned from the 'CAA/PL Challenge' was that it wasnt a challenge at all. And I also almost nailed the o'fer PL today, with our Hoyas the Lone Survivor. JMU will go as far as Vad takes them, nice field general and they have some threats on O. People with an OCoord with half a brain will move the ball on them. Without Vad they'd be fairly average in CAA. UNH didnt look super impressive like some recent editions, but they handled 'Gate pretty handily in the 2quarters I watched, even w 'gates f'ups. Nova-FU was harder for me to assess, would have loved to see that on a good weather day and in person, damn feed intermittently buffered endlessly. Delaware did not look impressive and the 'Pards were no match, weather bad but portion I watched the Maroon had nothing on O. I didnt see much of Bucknell-Duq, too many other screens going.

Our talent is really only marginally better IMO with scholarships. All the CAA kids still look way more athletic, thicker, stronger. We just dont compare and our coaching deficiencies, especially at LU, are glaring. We have a TON to fix in Bethlehem. No more excuses. Its not that we're young, we young, slow, and some of kids are undersized and soft. We had wideouts stop short after catches and not aggressively run with the ball, they looked intimidated. And our offensive gameplane was no plan at all, just a lets see what works mentality. I expect more from LU than that. There is just too much to comment on its fortunate I get tired of typing on an iPhone.

[ngineer]

I did like Coen's comment on the radio after the game when asked about the onsides kick: "If their coach needed 50 points that bad I would have written him a check." At the post-game press conference when asked, "It's his team. It's not something I would think of doing in that situation, but we're big boys so be it."

From here on out it's IL and PL and I expect every game to be competitive. I think a winning season is still very doable as is 7-4.

[Pard4Life]

I don't think it is. Andy has assembled this coaching staff including the OC. Andy's two best season were clearly traceable to an excellent OC and an excellent DC. Andy may be a good coordinator, but maybe not so much a HC. Fordham and Bucknell clearly demonstrate what can happen with an excellent HC in what were floundering programs.

Anybody know what Kevin Higgins is doing these days? He certainly brought passion to the program and his teams routinely overachieved. Let's hope that Andy is on a short leash. Another 3-8 or 4-7 should be the straw that breaks the AC's back.

At Lafayette, 3-8 gets you a two year extension. 4-7 a four year extension. You only get fired if you go 10 years winning 10 percent of your game (womens basketball).

[Longhorn]

Lehigh should have 10-14 more points. JMU is clearly better but it's not that decisive. This is similar but a little worse than Lafayette-W&M....

Really? Honestly, it could have been worse, and you're just fooling yourself to suggest otherwise.

Impressed by the Lehigh turnout. You're great fans and other than the outcome I hope your visit to Harrisonburg and JMU was pleasant.

[RichH2]

I did like Coen's comment on the radio after the game when asked about the onsides kick: "If their coach needed 50 points that bad I would have written him a check." At the post-game press conference when asked, "It's his team. It's not something I would think of doing in that situation, but we're big boys so be it."

From here on out it's IL and PL and I expect every game to be competitive. I think a winning season is still very doable as is 7-4.
Clear that JMU vastly superior than LU. We were not in their class for athleticism,size,experience or coaching. That said we were embarrassingly bad. Our O is a on trick pony ,Shaf. There is no other scheme evident. Remind of the Trey O. Lots of yards in fits and starts but zero continuity.
True enough the talent differdntial will not be as great from here on out. Will our back 5 learn how to tackle? O,well can Shaf beat most of the rest by himself with a draw in the dirt O scheme? Opponents know we wont attack further downfield than 10-15 yds. Even bad Ds can defend that.
A smash mouth vanilla O is not going to produce a winning season. To do that we need to score points,lots of points. Folmar's O cant do that.

[jmufan999]

thought there would be more consternation about the onside kick than what i'm reading. there's some, just thought it would be worse.

in the postgame presser, Withers said the onside kick was called simply because it "was there" to be taken. he made it sound like it was there to be taken for most of the game. don't shoot the messenger.

hope those of you that came enjoyed your time in harrisonburg.

[citdog]

If the Guys on your kickoff return team are cheating a step to get back and block so me kickers are taught to onside kick. You better be Damn sure you can recover it though. Just saying that might not have come from the bench.

[RichH2]

thought there would be more consternation about the onside kick than what i'm reading. there's some, just thought it would be worse.

in the postgame presser, Withers said the onside kick was called simply because it "was there" to be taken. he made it sound like it was there to be taken for most of the game. don't shoot the messenger.

hope those of you that came enjoyed your time in harrisonburg.
A classless move. Just because you can ,doesn't mean you should.
No reason to rant about it,not the reason we lost. You're better.

[Longhorn]

If the Guys on your kickoff return team are cheating a step to get back and block so me kickers are taught to onside kick. You better be Damn sure you can recover it though. Just saying that might not have come from the bench.

For better or worse, I think LU fans can blame Withers for the call. As 999 shared, Withers (in the post game) did say it was there the whole game, and Withers added it was something he wanted to try so the time spent practicing it could be put to the real test. Also, being up by a score of 45-17 probably made Withers feel safe in calling it, because if it didn't work the resulting excellent field position for LU wouldn't have had much impact on the final outcome. The call sure did surprise, and I can sure understand why LU fans would question it.

[aceinthehole]

Clear that JMU vastly superior than LU. We were not in their class for athleticism,size,experience or coaching. That said we were embarrassingly bad. Our O is a on trick pony ,Shaf. There is no other scheme evident. Remind of the Trey O. Lots of yards in fits and starts but zero continuity.
True enough the talent differdntial will not be as great from here on out. Will our back 5 learn how to tackle? O,well can Shaf beat most of the rest by himself with a draw in the dirt O scheme? Opponents know we wont attack further downfield than 10-15 yds. Even bad Ds can defend that.
A smash mouth vanilla O is not going to produce a winning season. To do that we need to score points,lots of points. Folmar's O cant do that.

Didn't Lehigh fans see that in the win vs CCSU? I don't think anyone was impressed with Lehigh's win in New Britain - it was masked by a very young CCSU team.

As I said before, Central is an extremely YOUNG team - 69% of our roster is 1st and 2nd year players and starting a RS Frosh QB, so we were a pretty weak opening opponent. Both teams were coming off 3-9 seasons. Shaf accounted for 346 of Lehigh's 445 yards of offense (83 rushing / 263 passing) vs. the Blue Devils. With a younger, less experienced QB that night the Hawks would have likely lost to a rebuilding CCSU team. I was impressed with Shaf, but not the team. Play that game again at the end of the year and Lehigh probably loses.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Really? Honestly, it could have been worse, and you're just fooling yourself to suggest otherwise.

Impressed by the Lehigh turnout. You're great fans and other than the outcome I hope your visit to Harrisonburg and JMU was pleasant.

Lehigh was never going to stop JMU but there was points to be had.

From a morale perspective 59-35 or so would have been a lot better.

Lehigh is really in a rut right now. They need to right the ship or it's goin to get ugly. As you can tell by the comments, there is pressure to preform. Lehigh can play with the Dukes when they have it rolling. Unfortunately that's a distant memory right now.

Still enjoyed the day! JMU's campus is great! I took a lot of great pics...

On the bright side for me, ND survived 60 miles away in Charlottesville and Temple is beating Cincinnati...

[bulldog10jw]

On the bright side for me, ND survived 60 miles away in Charlottesville

How bad must Texas be?

[Longhorn]

Lehigh was never going to stop JMU but there was points to be had.

From a morale perspective 59-35 or so would have been a lot better.

Lehigh is really in a rut right now. They need to right the ship or it's goin to get ugly. As you can tell by the comments, there is pressure to preform. Lehigh can play with the Dukes when they have it rolling. Unfortunately that's a distant memory right now.

Still enjoyed the day! JMU's campus is great! I took a lot of great pics...

On the bright side for me, ND survived 60 miles away in Charlottesville and Temple is beating Cincinnati...

Losing in a shoot-out will always taste better than a drubbing, but LU isn't ever going to score 35 against a team like JMU with your offense. Not saying JMU's D is world class (it surely isn't) but take away the second play where LU scored, who in that vanilla O can threaten anyone?

Good luck with the rest of your team's season! Glad you got a chance to see a bit of JMU's campus.

[Longhorn]

How bad must Texas be?

Bad.

So bad there was a change of QBs today....

[aceinthehole]

Lehigh was never going to stop JMU but there was points to be had.

From a morale perspective 59-35 or so would have been a lot better.

Lehigh is really in a rut right now. They need to right the ship or it's goin to get ugly. As you can tell by the comments, there is pressure to preform. Lehigh can play with the Dukes when they have it rolling. Unfortunately that's a distant memory right now.

Lehigh scored only 20 points vs. CCSU in week 1, but you think that 35 vs. JMU was realistic in week 2? What offense did you think they installed during the week?

After Shaf scored 2 TDs vs. Central (1 rushing / 1 passing), the Blue Devils held Lehigh to just 2 field goals for the rest of the game. In fact, after Lehigh took a 14-0 lead in the 2nd Quarter, CCSU outscored the Hawks 14-6 for the remainder of the game (37:24 minutes). What did you see that night in New Britain that makes you so optimistic?

You have to take off the rose-colored glasses. Despite opening your season with a win, Lehigh (and CCSU) just aren't very good teams this year. Reality sucks. CCSU's defense gave up 2 TDs to Lehigh and none in the 2nd half. Stony Brook tonight scored 5 TDs vs. the Blue Devils, including 3 in the 2nd half. We've both got to accept that that first game was a tight match between 2 equally bad teams.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lehigh scored only 20 points vs. CCSU in week 1, but you think that 35 vs. JMU was realistic in week 2?

The thought was that Folmar closed the playbook early and thus the team didn't score as much as it could have. Obviously that comes into question now.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh scored only 20 points vs. CCSU in week 1, but you think that 35 vs. JMU was realistic in week 2? What offense did you think they installed during the week?

After Shaf scored 2 TDs vs. Central (1 rushing / 1 passing), the Blue Devils held Lehigh to just 2 field goals for the rest of the game. In fact, after Lehigh took a 14-0 lead in the 2nd Quarter, CCSU outscored the Hawks 14-6 for the remainder of the game (37:24 minutes). What did you see that night in New Britain that makes you so optimistic?

You have to take off the rose-colored glasses. Despite opening your season with a win, Lehigh (and CCSU) just aren't very good teams this year. Reality sucks. CCSU's defense gave up 2 TDs to Lehigh and none in the 2nd half. Stony Brook tonight scored 5 TDs vs. the Blue Devils, including 3 in the 2nd half. We've both got to accept that that first game was a tight match between 2 equally bad teams.

I think the the style of play on offense has been discussed to death. Clearly it isn't working. The point is, a traditional passing attack that Lehigh has used in the past would have yielded better results. There were plays to be had but Lehigh couldn't execute well enough to capitalize. JMU D is going to be had by the better CAA offenses.

Things have to start heading in the right direction. I don't think an ugly win over Penn in their first game under a new coach will say much.

The only real positive I've seen is from the front seven. The DL hung in before the secondary finally crushed their will in the first half.

Temple just went into Nippert and beat Cincy to start 2-0! I'm content...

[aceinthehole]

The thought was that Folmar closed the playbook early and thus the team didn't score as much as it could have. Obviously that comes into question now.

That's a ridiculous premise to begin with. Again, what did you see in New Britain that suggests the coaches could d close the playbook - I mean I never saw it opened? Lehigh in no way was dominating the game vs. CCSU and they never had the luxury to "shut down" the offense.

Lehigh didn't score a TD vs. Central after the 7:25 mark of the 2nd quarter. The Hawks went the last 2.5 quarters (that's more than half the game) and could only manage 2 FGs.

CCSU and Lehigh played a very tight game against each other, and then next week we both got our hats handed to us by very superior CAA teams.

[ngineer]

Didn't Lehigh fans see that in the win vs CCSU? I don't think anyone was impressed with Lehigh's win in New Britain - it was masked by a very young CCSU team.

As I said before, Central is an extremely YOUNG team - 69% of our roster is 1st and 2nd year players and starting a RS Frosh QB, so we were a pretty weak opening opponent. Both teams were coming off 3-9 seasons. Shaf accounted for 346 of Lehigh's 445 yards of offense (83 rushing / 263 passing) vs. the Blue Devils. With a younger, less experienced QB that night the Hawks would have likely lost to a rebuilding CCSU team. I was impressed with Shaf, but not the team. Play that game again at the end of the year and Lehigh probably loses.

63% of Lehigh's team are true freshmen or sophomores (not red shirts) (56 of 90). So both teams have very similar inexperience. I think both teams will be better as their seasons go on. Lehigh left a bunch of points on the field through mistakes and the last CCSU touchdown should never have happened due to Lehigh DB dropping a sure interception. That game was not as close as the score. I do agree we are too much a 'one trick pony' at this time and that must change as the season progresses.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That's a ridiculous premise to begin with. Again, what did you see in New Britain that suggests the coaches could d close the playbook - I mean I never saw it opened? Lehigh in no way was dominating the game vs. CCSU and they never had the luxury to "shut down" the offense.

Lehigh didn't score a TD vs. Central after the 7:25 mark of the 2nd quarter. The Hawks went the last 2.5 quarters (that's more than half the game) and could only manage 2 FGs.

CCSU and Lehigh played a very tight game against each other, and then next week we both got our hats handed to us by very superior CAA teams.

For one, WR Pelletier who came into the season with good pub was held out in the second half as precaution. Many felt that might have limited the offense since he was regarded as Lehigh's best WR. As it was, it was Shaf two frosh RB's and mostly inexperienced WR's in the second half. TP played today but did not look right.

The CCSU game is old news. Time to move on to Penn.

[RichH2]

Yeah Penn ,a not good team playing their first game. Should be an easy W. Probably wont be easy.
OK,we are very young but not all that many fr and so players got into the game.

[mcveyrl]

I realize I'm reopening a can of worms...

At first our group thought the onside kick was ridiculous, but if you think about it, it makes sense. It was obviously there to take and we noticed it. But the biggest advantage is that we got it on film. Now every team that watches it will have to account for that. The beauty of it was that at that point in the game it really didn't matter whether we recovered it, what mattered was that teams will see that and won't cheat back on kickoff return the rest of the year.

[van]

I realize I'm reopening a can of worms...

At first our group thought the onside kick was ridiculous, but if you think about it, it makes sense. It was obviously there to take and we noticed it. But the biggest advantage is that we got it on film. Now every team that watches it will have to account for that. The beauty of it was that at that point in the game it really didn't matter whether we recovered it, what mattered was that teams will see that and won't cheat back on kickoff return the rest of the year.

they might still cheat back if they are getting thumped and believe that a bush move like that would be beneath JMU, of course a bush move like that might not be beneath JMU, and now I am done with this one and on to Penn game

[CHIP72]

Yeah Penn ,a not good team playing their first game. Should be an easy W. Probably wont be easy.
OK,we are very young but not all that many fr and so players got into the game.

That's because Lehigh isn't that good of a team either at this point.

[Engineer86]

That's a ridiculous premise to begin with. Again, what did you see in New Britain that suggests the coaches could d close the playbook - I mean I never saw it opened? Lehigh in no way was dominating the game vs. CCSU and they never had the luxury to "shut down" the offense.

Lehigh didn't score a TD vs. Central after the 7:25 mark of the 2nd quarter. The Hawks went the last 2.5 quarters (that's more than half the game) and could only manage 2 FGs.

CCSU and Lehigh played a very tight game against each other, and then next week we both got our hats handed to us by very superior CAA teams.

Lehigh was not impressive versus CCSU, but there was a clear difference between the two teams on the field if you think otherwise, give me back my LU glasses.

[PAllen]

Look, my big concern about this game is the coaching staff. To people's arguments that the players just aren't there yet, I'm not buying it. First and foremost, AC has been there long enough to recruit the players he wants and needs. These are all his kids, not the leftovers from a previous regime. If he didn't recruit the guys he needs to stay within four TD of JMU, then that's on him. As far as us only having 45 kids on scholarship, I'm not buying that excuse either. We did just fine with good coaching and zero scholarships in the grant-in-aid era. Correct me if I'm wrong, but while we are no longer allowed to give new grants-in-aid, all of the seniors on the team who had them to start still do. So, we're a full boat. Finally, I think we do have the players, at least enough to be competitive. Our first TD clearly shows that we have a guy who can outrun the entire JMU D once he gets to the second level. What plays did we call after that to get him the ball beyond the JMU linebackers? Our coaches seem to have this mentality of "we're going to line up and smash you in the mouth" when we are always going to be just a bit below the best in the country. Sure, scholarships have given us better physical tools, but it has only closed the gap in that department, not put us ahead.

I think that JMU has a good team this year. I don't think that they are necessarily championship caliber, and we had no business getting our clocks cleaned like that. Except of course, that we came out with pathetic play calling and a team that wasn't ready to play the game.

[aceinthehole]

Lehigh was not impressive versus CCSU, but there was a clear difference between the two teams on the field if you think otherwise, give me back my LU glasses.

Yes, the difference was at QB, where Lehigh had a clear advantage. Otherwise, both teams looked equally inexperienced and prone to mistakes. I, nor any objective observer, saw any distinction in talent, except at QB and K where Lehigh looked much stronger.

But as yiu say this is old news as we are both moving in to week 3.

[RichH2]

Look, my big concern about this game is the coaching staff. To people's arguments that the players just aren't there yet, I'm not buying it. First and foremost, AC has been there long enough to recruit the players he wants and needs. These are all his kids, not the leftovers from a previous regime. If he didn't recruit the guys he needs to stay within four TD of JMU, then that's on him. As far as us only having 45 kids on scholarship, I'm not buying that excuse either. We did just fine with good coaching and zero scholarships in the grant-in-aid era. Correct me if I'm wrong, but while we are no longer allowed to give new grants-in-aid, all of the seniors on the team who had them to start still do. So, we're a full boat. Finally, I think we do have the players, at least enough to be competitive. Our first TD clearly shows that we have a guy who can outrun the entire JMU D once he gets to the second level. What plays did we call after that to get him the ball beyond the JMU linebackers? Our coaches seem to have this mentality of "we're going to line up and smash you in the mouth" when we are always going to be just a bit below the best in the country. Sure, scholarships have given us better physical tools, but it has only closed the gap in that department, not put us ahead.

I think that JMU has a good team this year. I don't think that they are necessarily championship caliber, and we had no business getting our clocks cleaned like that. Except of course, that we came out with pathetic play calling and a team that wasn't ready to play the game.
Agree we have the talent,problem is most of the best are fr and so. Not enough upperclass quality. Some for sure but most of our depth is young. Does appear that the new talent may have gone to staff's heads. So we're no longer going to outscheme opponents we are going to outman them with smash mouth ball. Well,nope. Our O ran basically the same few plays the whole game. We could not run inside yet we contiued to run those plays til the game's end. No vertical pass game. Partly due to the pass rush. Other than a few WR screens little was done to slow JMU rush. One quick pass to our FB worked well. Never followed up on it. O scheme had zero continuity. Almost appeared to be OC just flipping thru the vanilla playbook and saying lets try this one.
Nick is the hub of our O but we will not win consistently if he continues to be our only offense.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Here are a few pics

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12002855_1043167349049029_4137035152790056554_n.jp g?oh=39bb1965efe6acb0488dcab7529990b0&oe=566721FB

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12002234_1043167365715694_2701718093172222817_n.jp g?oh=3b1f47ffc24ac05e9bad9d62a7ae8f61&oe=56AAD0E1

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12019820_1043167389049025_3495095139214470363_n.jp g?oh=a80dd9cf9d27dfc1bfa806d6a3c104d6&oe=565EF069

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Few more...

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12003239_1043536475678783_4613517649777756681_n.jp g?oh=e1a7cdc65ca522e146dc57701d168d62&oe=56601F40

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlt1/v/t1.0-9/12004816_1043536522345445_7685495176643096695_n.jp g?oh=5b48809db99454d5f1fc28ab57bff77c&oe=56A6F1F4

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11990424_1043536532345444_930202543719812445_n.jpg ?oh=01b04e5d37b21d0fa26a0a27156c7f17&oe=566ED13E

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That's because Lehigh isn't that good of a team either at this point.

Thankfully there's Temple Chip!

Lehigh, hopefully, can take care of Penn by 17+ points. We'll see....

[RootinFerDukes]

I hope the Lehigh fans in attendance enjoyed themselves as much as possible. I wish the weather was better, but what can you do.
We have late arriving and early leaving fans (especially the ritualistic student exodus at half time).
I was happy with the turnout when you factor in the weather forecast, middle game of 3 consecutive home games in 3 weeks, and the fact that there was a sold out Notre dame/UVA game an hour away in Charlottesville.

Withers said that based on the v formation that Lehigh was set up in, he realized an on-side was attainable and he went for it. It's unnecessary IMO, but I can't blame him for wanting to practice it with a big lead.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I really enjoyed my trip this weekend! That part of Virginia is absolutely beautiful! I traveled through there several years ago on my way to Martinsville Speedway and it was exactly as a I remember. The only negative yesterday was the low hanging clouds ruined some of the views. I would not hesitate to live anywhere from Martinsburg, WV down to Roanoke.

The campus is equally nice! It has a private feel to it. It does seem vastly different than the larger MAC schools and especially the big public schools in the AAC. Who does JMU consider as peer institutions? Having been to a lot of schools nothing really came to mind. JMU really is a unique school located in what appeared to be a great college town. I parked downtown where the farmers market, free municipal lot, was and walked down to the stadium. It was probably a mile.

You were right about the game day atmosphere Rootin. It does not compare to NDSU's, Montana or Montana State's of the world. Those places go all out regardless of opponent or weather. Given the amount of competition the Dukes faces in-state I think FBS football would be a bit of an uphill battle at JMU.

Bridgeforth is a great place to watch a game, especially at the FCS level. With that said, while it's an impressive structure you can tell it was done on the cheap. The press box deserved far more attention. It should be FAR, FAR nicer than it is. I think JMU might have been better served to eliminate about 3-4k seats and put the money saved on the fit and finish. It's still a step behind most of the MAC and SBC stadiums.

[PAllen]

All I can say is, please oh please televise any future ESPN game using cameras on the visitors side.

[Pard4Life]

JMU is nice but student housing is "good luck, happy hunting."

Was Lehigh really outmanned and outmuscled? That is somewhat disturbing in the scholarship era, even vs a CAA.

Pards lost to WM and DE, but we were not pushed around or manhandled, even though WM is a top 20 team.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

JMU is nice but student housing is "good luck, happy hunting."

Was Lehigh really outmanned and outmuscled? That is somewhat disturbing in the scholarship era, even vs a CAA.

Pards lost to WM and DE, but we were not pushed around or manhandled, even though WM is a top 20 team.

Part lacking the horses but a big part is also lacking belief.

The three biggest issues I saw were the lack of ability to tackle in space, bizarre play calling on offense and suspect OL play.

The failure to tackle in space is still what gets me. I think Botts had the defense reasonably well prepared for what JMU does on offense but the players failed in the secondary. The DL held up really well before the secondary let them down over and over. #7 was the only guy who was willing to throw his body into blocks and try to attack. Everyone else would put themselves in position to do something positive then fail epically. There is no doubt that with a healthy Cavenas the front 7 is trending upwards. The secondary remains a passive mess.

JMU is WAY better than Delaware and by most accounts probably 10-14 points better than W&M right now. LC played W&M pretty tough in the first half but when things started to go awry in the second it got pretty ugly. The Tribe burned LC for a lot of big plays where JMU killed LU by a death by a thousand cuts. Lehigh really didn't give up many, if any, big plays that iirc.

Until the coaching gets better the PL the league is stuck in a rut imo. Moorhead has everyone covered right now and it's not close. The only saving grace for everyone else is he'll be gone before too long...

[Southsider]

JMU is nice but student housing is "good luck, happy hunting."

Was Lehigh really outmanned and outmuscled? That is somewhat disturbing in the scholarship era, even vs a CAA.

Pards lost to WM and DE, but we were not pushed around or manhandled, even though WM is a top 20 team.

Yes & Yes! I've watched all 4 games LU & LC have played. Physically, Pards in a much better place than LU. Hands down!!

[Andy]

Yes & Yes! I've watched all 4 games LU & LC have played. Physically, Pards in a much better place than LU. Hands down!!

W & M exploited the Pards' 2 freshman safeties who played due to injury. Several scores on throws over top.

JMU best opponent by far of any PL competition.

[JMU2004]

I really enjoyed my trip this weekend! That part of Virginia is absolutely beautiful! I traveled through there several years ago on my way to Martinsville Speedway and it was exactly as a I remember. The only negative yesterday was the low hanging clouds ruined some of the views. I would not hesitate to live anywhere from Martinsburg, WV down to Roanoke.

The campus is equally nice! It has a private feel to it. It does seem vastly different than the larger MAC schools and especially the big public schools in the AAC. Who does JMU consider as peer institutions? Having been to a lot of schools nothing really came to mind. JMU really is a unique school located in what appeared to be a great college town. I parked downtown where the farmers market, free municipal lot, was and walked down to the stadium. It was probably a mile.

You were right about the game day atmosphere Rootin. It does not compare to NDSU's, Montana or Montana State's of the world. Those places go all out regardless of opponent or weather. Given the amount of competition the Dukes faces in-state I think FBS football would be a bit of an uphill battle at JMU.

Bridgeforth is a great place to watch a game, especially at the FCS level. With that said, while it's an impressive structure you can tell it was done on the cheap. The press box deserved far more attention. It should be FAR, FAR nicer than it is. I think JMU might have been better served to eliminate about 3-4k seats and put the money saved on the fit and finish. It's still a step behind most of the MAC and SBC stadiums.

The atmosphere is a far cry from where it was even 4 years ago. Simply put, many JMU fans feel mislead and taken advantage of....and they have spoken with taking their time/$$$ elsewhere. Also, east coast FCS football has really taken a hit with ODU/ASU/GSU leaving, and UD falling flat. There just isn't a marquee name out there anymore, and JMU fans feel left behind. App St was our closest peer.

And you are right about FBS competition (UVA played ND 45 miles away and VT had 55k for Furman). We will never be Montana, MSU, or NDSU that are really the ONLY games in town/state.

That being said, Lehigh isn't going to draw a big crowd anyway. While a strong FCS opponent, casual fans in Va simply aren't clamoring for the matchup, especially in the middle of a 3 game home stand. It is what it is.....FCS currently doesn't move the needle ANYWHERE outside of the 3 mentioned above.

[RootinFerDukes]

JMU is still doing well considering all the things actively working AGAINST it. NDSU, UM and MSU are the only sports tickets in their entire state. They'd have 2/3 the fan base if they had the same competition that we face every single season in our region.

[Pards Rule]

When was the last time we played JMU? I recall a game in Harrisonburg my senior year (1983) that we won after a tough loss at Maine the week before (39-38 after being up 38-14 I think in the 4th quarter!? Help here?). I don't recall any games after that.

[RootinFerDukes]

When was the last time we played JMU? I recall a game in Harrisonburg my senior year (1983) that we won after a tough loss at Maine the week before (39-38 after being up 38-14 I think in the 4th quarter!? Help here?). I don't recall any games after that.

1983 Lafayette won in Harrisonburg 31-14. 1985 Lafayette won 20-13 in Easton. I'd like to see JMU schedule all patriot league teams.

[Pard4Life]

That stadium is huge! FBS or bust!

[Pards Rule]

1983 Lafayette won in Harrisonburg 31-14. 1985 Lafayette won 20-13 in Easton. I'd like to see JMU schedule all patriot league teams.

I'm ready! Its been 30 years!!

[centennial]

What really stands out to me is that the PL is almost going back. Plenty of good coaches at D2 level or there are always assistants from the CAA or MVFC or MAC. Is there no administration support to have better coaches?

[RootinFerDukes]

That stadium is huge! FBS or bust!
It's looking like bust. We've been rumored to have turned down the old CUSA and MAC conferences back when our previous president was in office, prior to 2012. Then we had a wide open shot with the Sun Belt as recent as 2012-2014 timeframe and our current president will not pull the trigger on that conference. CCU just took "our spot".
They're supposedly waiting out for the MAC or CUSA but neither has any need to expand. The latest rumor is that the MAC wants JMU and Stony Brook once they expand LaValle Stadium. Let the rumors fly!

So yeah... it's looking like bust. Paralysis by Analysis by JMU's leadership and fans are tired of waiting. They're taking their time and money elsewhere.

[centennial]

It's looking like bust. We've been rumored to have turned down the old CUSA and MAC conferences back when our previous president was in office, prior to 2012. Then we had a wide open shot with the Sun Belt as recent as 2012-2014 timeframe and our current president will not pull the trigger on that conference. CCU just took "our spot".
They're supposedly waiting out for the MAC or CUSA but neither has any need to expand. The latest rumor is that the MAC wants JMU and Stony Brook once they expand LaValle Stadium. Let the rumors fly!

So yeah... it's looking like bust. Paralysis by Analysis by JMU's leadership and fans are tired of waiting. They're taking their time and money elsewhere.
JMU has no business in the Sun Belt, you aren't academically a fit. You are a fit for either MAC or CUSA.

[RootinFerDukes]

JMU has no business in the Sun Belt, you aren't academically a fit. You are a fit for either MAC or CUSA.
Yes and our current president reflects that mentality behind closed doors according to some persons closer to the situation. In the sun belt, only Appalachian State and Georgia Southern are truly close to athletic peers. App is an academic peer, ranking only 3 spots behind us in the US News South Region.

[centennial]

Yes and our current president reflects that mentality behind closed doors according to some persons closer to the situation. In the sun belt, only Appalachian State and Georgia Southern are truly close to athletic peers. App is an academic peer, ranking only 3 spots behind us in the US News South Region.
I am surprised that JMU isn't a national university. A couple of my friends went from NDSU to JMU for their grad degree, they are doing really well after graduation.

[RootinFerDukes]

I am surprised that JMU isn't a national university. A couple of my friends went from NDSU to JMU for their grad degree, they are doing really well after graduation.
US News defines a national university as having a certain minimum number of doctoral level degrees offered by a university. I believe it's 10. I think JMU offers 8 last I checked. We lack a law school, medical school, etc. that generates so many doctoral degrees.
Our administration is trying to be reclassified, but I have yet to see the results in the rankings and IMO there isn't enough emphasis on graduate level work. Some people say they like the smaller, undergraduate focus but you really have to have graduate programs to stand out nationally.
Villanova is a surprising regional school too that you just assumed was national. They're #1 in the North.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

JMU is in a tough spot due it's location imo. I don't see how the state of Virginia can support another FBS football program given JMU's proximity to Blacksburg and Charlottesville.

The school itself is beautiful. I can definitely see its attraction, especially relative to George Mason and ODU. Still, being a regional university (and JMU does feel like a small liberal arts-esque school) they're not going to attract much attention beyond the MAC. There's no way JMU will find its way into the AAC without changing its identity and/or the AAC losing 3-4 schools. Personally, I think the MAC would be a great landing sport. I could see a good rivalry forming with Ohio. Plus, there's a lot of really good academic schools within it. Both Ohio and Miami U. have a similar feel to JMU.

[RootinFerDukes]

Yep some have said our president personally favors the mac due to the academic peers within that conference. It's also the geographically closest to the average center point of the conference. We don't draw many great lakes students though, that's the thing. We're a mid-Atlantic and tri-state school based on where most students come from.

While we're FCS, which is probably forever at this point, I want to consistently play Patriot League schools. It's a collection of great universities, "junior ivy's" as some say, that have good name recognition.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

US News defines a national university as having a certain minimum number of doctoral level degrees offered by a university. I believe it's 10. I think JMU offers 8 last I checked. We lack a law school, medical school, etc. that generates so many doctoral degrees.
Our administration is trying to be reclassified, but I have yet to see the results in the rankings and IMO there isn't enough emphasis on graduate level work. Some people say they like the smaller, undergraduate focus but you really have to have graduate programs to stand out nationally.
Villanova is a surprising regional school too that you just assumed was national. They're #1 in the North.

Villanova does not have the reach of Georgetown, Notre Dame, BC and even Fordham. It's a very good school but it is kind of a "safety" Catholic school for a lot of kids in the Northeast given the options available. If Villanova was located in say Indiana it might be a national university, ala Marquette and St. Louis.

That's the best justification I can come up with....

[citdog]

So jmu which school was #1 for the 5th straight year in the South?

[RootinFerDukes]

So jmu which school was #1 for the 5th straight year in the South?

That would be elon. Oh you meant top public? Well that would be #3 the citadel.
I heard that part of their criteria is alumni giving, which the citadel is beating jmu's 7-8% I'm sure. It's an important measure, but shouldn't be putting schools ahead of each other.

[JMU2004]

That would be elon. Oh you meant top public? Well that would be #3 the citadel.
I heard that part of their criteria is alumni giving, which the citadel is beating jmu's 7-8% I'm sure. It's an important measure, but shouldn't be putting schools ahead of each other.


US News rankings have run their course. Now you have schools (ahem Elon, Stetson, Clemson, etc) who cater and manipulate data to the US News formula. I work at a highly ranked university that US News loves, and behind closed doors it is an admitted fact. Many schools actually fabricate some of the data that they report....someone just got busted, I think it was Emory.

As to an actual strong college ranking, look at Forbes. It's based heavily on ROI, which is what I think an education should be based on in a modern world.

[grayghost06]

I really enjoyed my trip this weekend! That part of Virginia is absolutely beautiful! I traveled through there several years ago on my way to Martinsville Speedway and it was exactly as a I remember. The only negative yesterday was the low hanging clouds ruined some of the views. I would not hesitate to live anywhere from Martinsburg, WV down to Roanoke.

The campus is equally nice! It has a private feel to it. It does seem vastly different than the larger MAC schools and especially the big public schools in the AAC. Who does JMU consider as peer institutions? Having been to a lot of schools nothing really came to mind. JMU really is a unique school located in what appeared to be a great college town. I parked downtown where the farmers market, free municipal lot, was and walked down to the stadium. It was probably a mile.

You were right about the game day atmosphere Rootin. It does not compare to NDSU's, Montana or Montana State's of the world. Those places go all out regardless of opponent or weather. Given the amount of competition the Dukes faces in-state I think FBS football would be a bit of an uphill battle at JMU.

Bridgeforth is a great place to watch a game, especially at the FCS level. With that said, while it's an impressive structure you can tell it was done on the cheap. The press box deserved far more attention. It should be FAR, FAR nicer than it is. I think JMU might have been better served to eliminate about 3-4k seats and put the money saved on the fit and finish. It's still a step behind most of the MAC and SBC stadiums.

My only gripe with the stadium is that we located the press box in the stands rather than behind the stands. It takes up a good deal of 30 yd line to 30 yd line seating in the upper deck Unfortunately, JMU put the cart before the horse by building a parking garage by the lake a few years before the stadium project. Thus there was no available space to do it differently.

[KPSUL]

So jmu which school was #1 for the 5th straight year in the South?

For binge drinking? I's say JMU.

[JMU2004]

For binge drinking? I's say JMU.


lol...evidently you haven't been very far south. We're tame compared to most southern schools.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

For binge drinking? I's say JMU.

The chics are definitely hotter at JMU. That counts for a lot of points!

Temple was the ultimate mixed bag. Plenty of cute girls from the 'burbs of differing nationalities but a lot of "unique" personalities because of the school's urban location. I swear there were a few undetermined nationalities too....

[KPSUL]

lol...evidently you haven't been very far south. We're tame compared to most southern schools.

I don't know about that. It may have been ancient history, but my Alma Mater was legendary in that department back in my day.

[citdog]

I don't know about that. It may have been ancient history, but my Alma Mater was legendary in that department back in my day.

The Citadel, a drinking school with a military problem.

[grayghost06]

Saw your school (The Citadel) for the first time in person on Monday. Impressive campus. Old campus was cool too.

[ngineer]

US News rankings have run their course. Now you have schools (ahem Elon, Stetson, Clemson, etc) who cater and manipulate data to the US News formula. I work at a highly ranked university that US News loves, and behind closed doors it is an admitted fact. Many schools actually fabricate some of the data that they report....someone just got busted, I think it was Emory.

As to an actual strong college ranking, look at Forbes. It's based heavily on ROI, which is what I think an education should be based on in a modern world.

Yes, Bucknell got busted a couple years ago, as well, for submitting fabricated data. The ROI has become the biggest factor in many minds, but that can be hard to measure, as well. While starting salaries seem to be a focus, whether one's alumni are "successful" should be measured by more import metrics.

[JMU2004]

[/B]Yes, Bucknell got busted a couple years ago, as well, for submitting fabricated data. The ROI has become the biggest factor in many minds, but that can be hard to measure, as well. While starting salaries seem to be a focus, whether one's alumni are "successful" should be measured by more import metrics.

Sure. But honestly, when talking about laying out anywhere from 60-250k, financial ROI should be a huge part of the decision....more so than "wow, I got into a school with tough entrance barriers, I'm going there".