Non-Scholly Playoff Proposal

[Model Citizen]

It was rejected in 2003, with the following comment from the NCAA championship committee,

"The cabinet was opposed to creating a separate set of championships for institutions that already are eligible for current championships. In addition, members of the cabinet believed that approving a nonscholarship championship for I-AA football might encourage other sports to consider proposing a nonscholarship or reduced scholarship championship. Ultimately a philosophical change to reduced scholarship or nonscholarship championships would decrease scholarship opportunities for student-athletes."

Now I hear they're trying again, this time with the support of the SoCon and Southland. Supposedly, no equivalencies would be allowed, but that would leave only the MAAC and Pioneer as participants.

Will this pass?

[TexasTerror]

I don't recall this legislation. You'd have to ask Ralph. That's interesting that the SLC would support such legislation. I do know the SLC is the conference that pushed hard to change the transition period, but that was not recommended...

[Model Citizen]

The latest version was discussed on I-AAWaves 1-2 months ago.

Two scholarship conferences indicated their support as part of a deal to apply an equivalency minimum on the existing playoff.

[danefan]

When originally proposed in 2003, the NEC was non-scholarship and was behind this. The MACC was also somewhat more viable at that point.

[Model Citizen]

When originally proposed in 2003, the NEC was non-scholarship and was behind this. The MACC was also somewhat more viable at that point.

Right. But supporters of a ns playoff want a 0 equivalency limit for one playoff and a 50 equivalency minimum for the other.

Now the NEC has limited scholarships, so when the Pioneer/Gateway commissioner said on I-AAWaves that the NEC needs to get off the fence, she meant either drop schollies altogether, or get up to the proposed minimum for the regular playoffs. Otherwise the NEC won't be considered for either championship.

Without the NEC in the ns playoff equation, you've got less than 15 CS ns programs interested in the postseason. I know some want to slam the door on the San Diegos, but is it worth a separate playoff for such a small group?

[blukeys]

I know some want to slam the door on the San Diegos, but is it worth a separate playoff for such a small group?


No and this was discussed before about a year ago on another thread. The 50 equvalency minimum was also discussed this year.

[DetroitFlyer]

My personal opinion is that this ill-conceived notion will not pass. The two scholarship conferences that support this nonsense, ( let's just call them the latest leaders of the old guard shall we ), want to place a minimum financial committment on gaining access to the playoffs. Georgetown, for example, does not provide 50 rides, BUT, they reportedly fund their program at a level of $1.2 million / year. By sheer coincedence, the cutoff number for gaining access to the playoffs was set a $1.2 million dollars per year or 50 rides if I remember right, ( every team in a conference )... That's right folks, pay your money and you too can gain access to the CS playoffs.... Anyone that buys into the SOS argument for discriminating against USD and keeping them from the playoffs need only study this proposal. It is about money, pure and simple.... The old guard just could not sleep at night if a non-scholly team like USD defeated one of their precious 50 ride + or $1.2 million funded teams in the playoffs.... That might look bad to the alums and supporters of their programs, and many are afraid that if USD could do it, other schools might as well.... Oh no, fewer scholarships.... The sky is falling.... My school, Dayton, is reported to fund football currently at $940K/yr. We could probably spend a bit more and match Georgetown, BUT, since the rest of the PFL schools are lower funded we still could not buy our way into the CS playoffs.... Dayton has better attendance than some autobid teams, we have a better stadium that many autobid teams, we have a brand new practice field, we are currently building an indoor practice facility, but we are not worthy because we do not meet the old guard's arbitrary funding requirements.... With only the MAAC and PFL now in the ranks of non-scholly schools, this proposal has little chance of passing. USD has clearly demonstrated that a non-scholly team can compete with ANYONE is CS. Yeah, it is not easy, and many things have to come together, but it can be done!! Duquesne wants to join the PFL, but the rumor is that we will not let them in because we do not want to be responsible for the MAAC folding in football.... Campbell in NC also wants to join the PFL. MAYBE there are other CS level schools that want to start up non-scholly football, but the past would certainly not offer much hope of that.... If CS is REALLY serious about crowning a champion on the field, the playoff structure has to be modified to be more inclusive, ( more than 16 teams ). Oh yeah, the old guard does not like that either....

[JMG1MON]

My personal opinion is that this ill-conceived notion will not pass. The two scholarship conferences that support this nonsense, ( let's just call them the latest leaders of the old guard shall we ), want to place a minimum financial committment on gaining access to the playoffs. Georgetown, for example, does not provide 50 rides, BUT, they reportedly fund their program at a level of $1.2 million / year. By sheer coincedence, the cutoff number for gaining access to the playoffs was set a $1.2 million dollars per year or 50 rides if I remember right, ( every team in a conference )... That's right folks, pay your money and you too can gain access to the CS playoffs.... Anyone that buys into the SOS argument for discriminating against USD and keeping them from the playoffs need only study this proposal. It is about money, pure and simple.... The old guard just could not sleep at night if a non-scholly team like USD defeated one of their precious 50 ride + or $1.2 million funded teams in the playoffs.... That might look bad to the alums and supporters of their programs, and many are afraid that if USD could do it, other schools might as well.... Oh no, fewer scholarships.... The sky is falling.... My school, Dayton, is reported to fund football currently at $940K/yr. We could probably spend a bit more and match Georgetown, BUT, since the rest of the PFL schools are lower funded we still could not buy our way into the CS playoffs.... Dayton has better attendance than some autobid teams, we have a better stadium that many autobid teams, we have a brand new practice field, we are currently building an indoor practice facility, but we are not worthy because we do not meet the old guard's arbitrary funding requirements.... With only the MAAC and PFL now in the ranks of non-scholly schools, this proposal has little chance of passing. USD has clearly demonstrated that a non-scholly team can compete with ANYONE is CS. Yeah, it is not easy, and many things have to come together, but it can be done!! Duquesne wants to join the PFL, but the rumor is that we will not let them in because we do not want to be responsible for the MAAC folding in football.... Campbell in NC also wants to join the PFL. MAYBE there are other CS level schools that want to start up non-scholly football, but the past would certainly not offer much hope of that.... If CS is REALLY serious about crowning a champion on the field, the playoff structure has to be modified to be more inclusive, ( more than 16 teams ). Oh yeah, the old guard does not like that either....


How have they proven that?? Because they lost by 10 to the only scholarship level CS team they have played????????? xidiotx

:flagged:

[89Hen]

If CS is REALLY serious about crowning a champion on the field, the playoff structure has to be modified to be more inclusive, ( more than 16 teams ). Oh yeah, the old guard does not like that either....
:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

Because we all know San Diego would have creamed the playoff field. :nonono2:

[carney2]

As long as we're at it why not set up separate playoffs for state universities and for private schools? How about enrollment graduated playoffs with separate tournaments for schools with 10,000+ ennrollment, 5,000-9,999, and under 5,000? How about separate playoffs for those conferences that allow redshirts and encourage transfers vs. those that don't.

Or, the ultimate solution: every CS school sets up its own post season game wherein the 1st team offense and 2nd team defense play the 2nd team offense and 1st team defense. This would eliminate travel costs and everyone would get an NCAA sanctioned trophy. We're number one! We're number one!

:eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:

[Cleets]

As long as we're at it why not set up separate playoffs for state universities and for private schools? How about enrollment graduated playoffs with separate tournaments for schools with 10,000+ ennrollment, 5,000-9,999, and under 5,000? How about separate playoffs for those conferences that allow redshirts and encourage transfers vs. those that don't.

Or, the ultimate solution: every CS school sets up its own post season game wherein the 1st team offense and 2nd team defense play the 2nd team offense and 1st team defense. This would eliminate travel costs and everyone would get an NCAA sanctioned trophy.

:eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:



xlolx

I laughed … I cried, I giggled, I belched and farted…
You’re funny
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[AZGrizFan]

That's right folks, pay your money and you too can gain access to the CS playoffs.... Anyone that buys into the SOS argument for discriminating against USD and keeping them from the playoffs need only study this proposal. It is about money, pure and simple....BUT, since the rest of the PFL schools are lower funded we still could not buy our way into the CS playoffs....

No, but you could SCHEDULE yourselves into the playoffs. Yeah, you might have 7 creampuffs in your conference (well, six and USD), but schedule and BEAT 3 top shelf I-AA schools OOC and you'd be dancing every year. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[DetroitFlyer]

So, some conferences have to "schedule" themselves into the playoffs while other do not.... Yeah, that sure seems unbiased....

[BeauFoster]

I don't care if there is a playoff system for non-scholarship teams or not, but they better not be officially recognized as D-I national champs. If they want to play for a national championship, they have two options. Add scholarships or drop back to D-III (all that considering there was a n-s playoff). If there is no n-s playoff, earn your way into the CS playoffs like the other teams have to do!

[danefan]

So, some conferences have to "schedule" themselves into the playoffs while other do not.... Yeah, that sure seems unbiased....

Its not unfair. All teams that don't get an AQ need to schedule themselves into the playoffs. Some teams, however, have the luxury of their conference schedules being strong enough to get them an at-large. For the NEC, PFL, and MAAC, a conference schedule with cupcake OOC games is not enough.

It's not unfair at all...it's life.

[LeopardFan04]

Its not unfair. All teams that don't get an AQ need to schedule themselves into the playoffs. Some teams, however, have the luxury of their conference schedules being strong enough to get them an at-large. For the NEC, PFL, and MAAC, a conference schedule with cupcake OOC games is not enough.

It's not unfair at all...it's life.

:nod: :nod: :nod:

[Pard4Life]

Teams like San Diego and Dayton have to schedule their way into the playoffs first... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :bang:

[AZGrizFan]

So, some conferences have to "schedule" themselves into the playoffs while other do not.... Yeah, that sure seems unbiased....

What world are you living in? Perhaps we should let the AZ Cardinals play college teams, and then get into the playoffs because they went 13-3 against the WAC and Big West? That's the equivalent of what your asking....

If you have the unfortunate distinction of being in a weak conference without an AQ, of COURSE you have to schedule your way into the playoffs. It's real simple: If you think you're good enough, go beat your division opponents, and then schedule and beat 2 out of three teams from the BSC, Gateway, A-10, SoCon, GWFC, etc. If USD had beaten UC-Davis (and had the brains to schedule the game BEFORE playoff selections were completed) and scheduled and beaten almost any other reasonable team instead of D-II's as OOC, they would have had a very legitimate argument for being selected (and in fact probably WOULD have been selected over MSU). As it worked out, they did neither, and are now at home (well, after Saturday), watching the playoffs despite their "gaudy" record.

[UAalum72]

What world are you living in? Perhaps we should let the AZ Cardinals play college teams, and then get into the playoffs because they went 13-3 against the WAC and Big West? That's the equivalent of what your asking....
Not at all. The AZ Cardinals are not a college team. The PFL and NEC OTOH ARE members in good standing of the NCAA subdivision we're talking about.


If ...(and in fact probably WOULD have been selected over MSU).
Irrelevant to the argument - they're still at the mercy of the selection committee. An extra hurdle not required of autobid conference champions. If there's value to winning a conference, conference winners should be in. If there isn't value to winning a conference, do away with all the auto bids.

[bkrownd]

. If USD had beaten UC-Davis (and had the brains to schedule the game BEFORE playoff selections were completed) and scheduled and beaten almost any other reasonable team instead of D-II's as OOC, they would have had a very legitimate argument for being selected (and in fact probably WOULD have been selected over MSU). As it worked out, they did neither, and are now at home (well, after Saturday), watching the playoffs despite their "gaudy" record.

I doubt playoffs were ever a consideration at San Diego before. I thought they considered themselves an Ivy League aloof sort of place? When the momentary excitement of this year fades they'll probably be content to return to scheduling like-minded schools like the Harvards, Whittiers and Colorado Colleges of the world and forget playoffs exist again.

[blukeys]

So, some conferences have to "schedule" themselves into the playoffs while other do not.... Yeah, that sure seems unbiased....


I don't believe that I am eloquent enough to alter your opinion but your constant attempts to portray the PFL as the victim of a vast "OLD GUARD" conspiracy should not be left unrefuted on the issue of scheduling. (The OVC attempt to award autobids on the basis of financial commitment is a different matter). Yes certain conferences do not need to schedule tougher OOC games to get an at large bid. If you are in the A-10 or Gateway a team could play 4 to 6 top 25 teams in the course of just conference play. A PFL team would not see 4 top 25 teams in 10 years of conference play!!!! So for the non brain dead AD's who really want to see a playoff team in the PFL conference they should have realized it only makes sense to schedule tough OOC games.

Why does the PFL need to schedule these tougher OOC games. Well the NCAA selection committee has been extremely clear that they consider strength of schedule to be a key factors in picking at large playoff teams. They have said so on numerous occasions. More importantly they have backed their actions up. Last year they selected Lafayette over Youngstown State. They cited Lafayette's increased D1 wins over YSU's as the deciding factor (YSU played Slippery Rock) The NCAA also stated clearly that they wanted to see D-I matchups. They changed the selection criteria which penalized a team that had more than 3 losses to rewarding teams with 7 D-I wins. If ever a clear statement was made about SOS this was it. This year the NCAA ignored the smoke and mirrors publicity campaign of USD and selected a 7-4 Montana State for a playoff berth. In addition to USD the committee did not take a 9-2 Delaware State whose OOC games were filled with Sacred Heart and Concordia (Worthy PFL opponents) . They also did not take Monmouth whose record was better than 7-4 but whose SOS was not as good as the 7-4 teams. In short the NCAA selection committee has stated time and again that scheduling strength is a hugely significant part of the selection process. Not only have they stated it but they have backed it up with their selection picks.

Now everyone has been informed about the Selection Comittee priorities and certain teams have taken note and deliviered. Cal Poly (old Guard???????) in 2005 and Coastal Carolina (OLD Guard????????????) have gotten at large bids in '05 and '06. Gheez how did these schools from non OLD GUARD conferences get in????????? Was it because their SOS was better than say Delaware State (Old Guard Conference)

It seems everyone from the Big South to the NEC has gotten the message that tougher OOC scheduling is the key to getting in the playoffs. Certainly the NEC has acted on this as has Coastal Carolina.

It appears the only conference doesn't understand the message is the PFL. Maybe they are not as academically superior as they try to portray. They continue to schedule D-2 and NAIA teams despite the obvious verbal and tangible statements of the NCAA. What gives? Is the PFL really that much more muddle headed that all of the rest of the CS subdivision?

It appears the PFL schools are not nearly as smart as everyone else. When given the option to achieve their goals they simply stick their heads in the sand and do the same old thing that gets no results.

In the end the PFL has chosen whining, and a persecution complex over results. Coastal Carolina and Cal POLY have proven that a tough schedule gets you in the playoffs when you listen to the criteria. The PFL would rather run a relentless Pity Party with themselves as victims. They refuse to schedule more than one competitive OOC game per year and hope that big blowouts by one of their member will attract attention.

While some in the media may be blinded by a vocal and eloquent NFL retiree those of us who have watched I-AA football from the late 70's on are not so easily fooled. The PFL and the Maac scrape the bottom of the CS barrel.

In short the NCAA selection committee has said what they consider to be important for a playoff team. Certain teams and conferences such as Cal Poly and Coastal Carolina have taken this seriously and to heart. NO PFL team has done so and they have been deservedly been left out.

That no PFL poster addresses their own school's lame scheduling speaks volumes about their agenda. The truth is the NCAA selection committee has already laid out the path to the playoffs but no PFL school is willing to follow the direction. CAL POLY and Coastal Carolina did. USD will not. IN the end the PFL would prefer to accuse others of conspiracy and not acknowledge that the source of their problems is in their own scheduling.

You are entitled to respond to this with your typical unrelenting PFL Pity Party routine. This of course will not be unexpected nor will it be original. You will say the playoffs need to be expanded. Your teams are full of great kids who need a playoff bid etc., etc, etc, but in the end you will not schedule the kinds of teams you need to be in the playoffs. You really lose me there.

Since you will not ever accept the responsibility for your own horrendous scheduling decisions, I say, Come Down from the Cross, Someone else needs the wood.:nod: :nod: :nod:

[UAalum72]

blukeys, a couple of errors undermine your argument. Sacred Heart, which I think you're deriding as a 'worthy PFL opponent', was a close loser to Lafayette, which WAS in the tournament (autobid), (St. Francis was the NEC on Del St.'s schedule).

And if the committee is supposed to emphasize Division I wins, why did they give an at-large to Eastern Illinois, whose ONLY out-of-conference win was over 1-10 Indiana State? It wasn't based on the strength of the Ohio Valley, was it? That just shows me the committee can pick whoever they damn well please, and the SOS argument is crap.