Need Help Starting A Petition (Related to PFL)

[bonarae]

I'm considering starting a petition to have the NCAA investigate the Pioneer Football League for its poor handling of its rules regarding financial aid. But before you begin ranting, who wants to support me in this cause that can hopefully help improve the FCS' situation?

At CS, I began a topic for the posters there about the PFL, and one of the questions I posed in the post may involve starting a petition to have the NCAA investigate the PFL and introduce some rules that may forever change the landscape of the FCS (and unfortunately, may also involve the Ivies and the Dayton Rule as well.)

My proposed solution is this: the NCAA should allow certain schools' football teams to become "independents" (non-division-bound) while keeping their other teams a division status. That should hopefully help some schools, regardless of division, who struggle with finding a stable conference affiliation.

[FUBeAR]

I'm considering starting a petition to have the NCAA investigate the Pioneer Football League for its poor handling of its rules regarding financial aid. But before you begin ranting, who wants to support me in this cause that can hopefully help improve the FCS' situation?

At CS, I began a topic for the posters there about the PFL, and one of the questions I posed in the post may involve starting a petition to have the NCAA investigate the PFL and introduce some rules that may forever change the landscape of the FCS (and unfortunately, may also involve the Ivies and the Dayton Rule as well.)

My proposed solution is this: the NCAA should allow certain schools' football teams to become "independents" (non-division-bound) while keeping their other teams a division status. That should hopefully help some schools, regardless of division, who struggle with finding a stable conference affiliation.

I think I'm with you on this, but I don't fully get the linkage between investigating the PFL (which would mean investigating each school) and repealing the Dayton Rule. I think the investigation petition goes nowhere, but just repealing the Dayton rule has a chance. I'm sure there was thought to be a good reason for it when it was established, but I don't see who it benefits now. Football is just different than every other sport due to the number of players, no corresponding women's sport, the costs of sponsoring a team and the (potential) revenue involved. If schools want Football, they should be able to play at the level they can support without impacting every other 'not-different' sport. Allowing that would enable schools to properly de-emphasize their programs without eliminating them, would allow them to, largely, compete on a level playing field, not be a burden or shackle to other schools who want to maintain or increase their support of football. So, with a bit more education on the impact of repealing the rule, I think I would be 'down' for that type of effort.

[DFW HOYA]

My proposed solution is this: the NCAA should allow certain schools' football teams to become "independents" (non-division-bound) while keeping their other teams a division status.

Any school can choose to be an independent as it is. See Notre Dame, BYU, Army, etc. Division status is based on number of sports sponsored and, secondarily, budget. Harvard's commitment to athletics is not comparable to that of, say, Endicott.

[FargoBison]

I would love to see the Dayton rule repealed, freeing up the PFL to go where they belong and that is somewhere not in the FCS.

[bonarae]

I would love to see the Dayton rule repealed, freeing up the PFL to go where they belong and that is somewhere not in the FCS.

Me too. So that the Ivies will finally think about rejoining the postseason football experience... but it may still not be a factor or motivation to even start the discussion among the Presidents. Due to this sad reality involving the Ivies, that's why I had to start backing a playoff-participating team to fully satisfy my participation cravings in this forum.

[DFW HOYA]

I would love to see the Dayton rule repealed, freeing up the PFL to go where they belong and that is somewhere not in the FCS.

And what happens if they decided not to go? D-II might not want them and D-III definitely would not.

[bonarae]

Any school can choose to be an independent as it is. See Notre Dame, BYU, Army, etc. Division status is based on number of sports sponsored and, secondarily, budget. Harvard's commitment to athletics is not comparable to that of, say, Endicott.

The three FBS schools have conference potential but they have the commitment to compete in college football's highest level as independents. However, the non-playoff-participating FCS conferences and the PFL are another set of stories altogether.

If the Dayton Rule is repealed, I would like to see all of the PFL teams move down to D-III and the NCAA would allow my proposal to become reality, delighting the club football teams still not considering varsity status at this time, along with the NESCAC, who still snubs the likes of Chicago, Hopkins and MIT in football. About the SWAC/MEAC, they might have to rejoin the playoffs at some point if the Dayton Rule becomes history.

As for the number of school sponsored sports and budget, Harvard has several sports not under NCAA's jurisdiction (e.g. squash, rugby, crew and sailing.) A comparable example would be UCLA, Stanford, Wisconsin or Cal.

[bonarae]

And what happens if they decided not to go? D-II might not want them and D-III definitely would not.

They might end up becoming independents, join the NAIA or USCAA or they would sue the NCAA at all costs.

[taper]

Any school can choose to be an independent as it is. See Notre Dame, BYU, Army, etc. Division status is based on number of sports sponsored and, secondarily, budget. Harvard's commitment to athletics is not comparable to that of, say, Endicott.

Your definition of independent is not belonging to a conference. bonarae's talking about not belonging to the same division as your other sports. Completely different, and currently banned by the Dayton rule. Plus all the FBS independents you mention go alone because they get a better TV deal by themselves than sharing conference money. Exactly the opposite problem the PFL has.

[JayJ79]

while some PFL schools have broken conference rules/guidelines as far as financial aid, I don't think they've violated NCAA policies. I don't know if the NCAA would really get involved.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Very important to note that NO NCAA rules were violated. PFL schools violated their conference bylaws, which mandates a D-III model for aid for their football programs only.

I sense a blog posting coming on.

[DFW HOYA]

Your definition of independent is not belonging to a conference. bonarae's talking about not belonging to the same division as your other sports. Completely different, and currently banned by the Dayton rule. Plus all the FBS independents you mention go alone because they get a better TV deal by themselves than sharing conference money. Exactly the opposite problem the PFL has.

FWIW, half of the original PFL schools were Division II, not III: Butler, Evansville, and Valpo. Davidson was moving out of the Patriot and had been D-III only a short while. Dayton was the true D-III program in that group and it was Dayton that led the D-III schools to want them out.

[Catsfan90]

Why can't the NCAA mandate a scholarship policy at the FCS level?

[bonarae]

Very important to note that NO NCAA rules were violated. PFL schools violated their conference bylaws, which mandates a D-III model for aid for their football programs only.

That's why the NCAA should implement rules that would prevent the likes of PFL to even form in the first place. Financial aid policies should be compliant with their respective division models.

As for the affected programs, though, my original post would apply.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

while some PFL schools have broken conference rules/guidelines as far as financial aid, I don't think they've violated NCAA policies. I don't know if the NCAA would really get involved.

This is exactly how it looks to me. What NCAA rules have been broken?

Not saying the destination is not worth looking at just saying this seems a very inappropriate road to take to get there...possibly.

[bonarae]

This is exactly how it looks to me. What NCAA rules have been broken?

Not saying the destination is not worth looking at just saying this seems a very inappropriate road to take to get there...possibly.

I think I got it wrong the first time. See my last post before this for clarity.

[DetroitFlyer]

Wow, perhaps the absolute most moronic thread ever here.... Find something else to occupy your time, really...!

[OL FU]

Wow, perhaps the absolute most moronic thread ever here.... Find something else to occupy your time, really...!

Actually, I think the Dayton rule is an interesting and good discussion. I have no problem with the PFL in the FCS and think they should get an autobid. But I do wonder how many of the PFL teams would be playing in FCS if the Dayton rule wasn't in effect?

[clenz]

Actually, I think the Dayton rule is an interesting and good discussion. I have no problem with the PFL in the FCS and think they should get an autobid. But I do wonder how many of the PFL teams would be playing in FCS if the Dayton rule wasn't in effect?
How many were before?

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[OL FU]

How many were before?

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Don't know. Good question. Few if any I would think . Davidson was but they wouldn't be now. That was my point. I think if get rid of the Dayton rule the issue goes away.

[UAalum72]

How many were before?

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Morehead State.

Drake was I-AA until 1985 before dropping down. Butler and Valpo were D-II.

[Model Citizen]

Bonarae, something tells me you didn't really go to Harvard.

[eaglesdare]

At NCCU we are putting something together regarding D1 Basketball. I loathe the Celebration Bowl and would love it if we could drop down to the DII CIAA in football. It would keep travel expenses down and let us play in a league with a playoff auto bid.

[ccd494]

Why the heck do you care what the PFL does? You can frame it that they take away a playoff berth, but if you subtract teams from FCS you will have a smaller playoffs anyways.

I don't understand why FCS being a "big tent" subdivision is held out as bad. So the HBCUs and Ivies don't want to play in the playoffs- so what? So the Pioneer doesn't want to offer scholarships- so what? So the NEC wants to offer fewer scholarships- so what? So the Patriot wants to have their Academic Index- so what?

What would happen if you exclude the Jacksonvilles and San Diegos and Valpos isn't that they would go and form their own organization, they would just drop football. Who is that better for?

Further, the change you want isn't creating a new level for FCS non-participators or non-scholarship programs. The change you want is to mandate that you must play teams with a certain number of equivalencies for the game to count for playoff purposes. If you make, say, Campbell drop football, Presbyterian isn't going to replace them with the Citadel on their schedule. They are going to replace them with Fayetteville State or someone like that. And what have you gained? Nothing except legislating ten or so schools out of existence so other schools can play more sub-DI's. Good work.

But, if you treat Pioneer schools like D-II or D-III or NAIA schools for playoff countability, then you will see them much more rarely. Which seems to be your goal.

[FargoBison]

I would love for the FCS playoff to go back to 16 teams, would love it. It would mean the FCS could have a permanent 12 game schedule which would be a tremendous thing for the subdivision. But getting rid of the Ivy, MEAC, SWAC and PFL would do little to accomplish that. It would still leave 9 conferences with autobids and that would mean the playoff could be no smaller than 18 teams per NCAA rules. The size of the playoff has nothing to do with the number of schools in the FCS, it has everything to do with the amount of conferences that have an autobid.

I don't really care what the PFL does, unless they want to take the necessary steps to become competitive in the FCS. Otherwise it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if every single one of those programs ceased to exist but I would rather they could play football in DII or DIII. Most of them are horrible football programs and will remain that way unless they decide to move away from their DIII ways and work towards being more like the NEC or Patriot League.

I don't have a single issue with NEC or Patriot, I like and respect those leagues. They want to get better and have done things to make themselves better and as a result they have made the FCS better. I don't see that from the PFL, the PFL got a playoff bid it never earned and in the playoffs it has been nothing more than a complete embarrassment. Montana could have named their score in their playoff game against USD, that shouldn't be the case in a playoff game.