Most regressed FCS program of the last decade

[clenz]

Don't want to get the two topics mixed on the other thread...so...

let's here it.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'll go with Hampton. They were consistently ranked in the Top a decade ago and were the best HBCU nearly every year. Now they're a mess.

Furman, Penn, Western Illinois and McNeese State also come to mind.

[Model Citizen]

Davidson. Ok - for full effect, one has to go back 15 years to their undefeated season.

[Daytripper]

I'd go with Delaware.

[clenz]

My question is what are we basing "regressed" on in this situation

W/L from 05? A set time period leading into 05?

Can you still have a relatively decent W/L and 2 real good years but still be most regressed (UD?) from where you were a decade ago?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

My question is what are we basing "regressed" on in this situation

W/L from 05? A set time period leading into 05?

Can you still have a relatively decent W/L and 2 real good years but still be most regressed (UD?) from where you were a decade ago?

I would say the level of erosion from the previous decade.

Youngstown State and Delaware are both interesting cases. I didn't list either because the Hens have still proven to be elite over the last decade while YSU has done a good job posting winning seasons in a really good conference. Delaware really hasn't stunk either, mostly middling....

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Out of the Valley I would go with Youngstown. National power to middle of the pack conference team. SIU could be in there also.

Nationally: Delaware

[bonarae]

From the Ivies: Penn. Their level has sunk to a cellar dweller in the past 5 seasons or so, as Harvard, Yale and even Dartmouth took their positions in the top of the Ivy order.

Nationally: Delaware.

[catbob]

McNeese, YSU, Delaware all come to mind.

A look at the 2006 final polls:

1. App State
2. UMass
3. UM
4. YSU
5. NDSU
6. UNH
7. SIU
8. ISU
9. JMU
10. MSU
11. Hampton
12. FU
13. UT Martin
14. Coastal
15. EIU
16. Cal Poly
17. UNI
18. Princeton
19. Portland State
20. San Diego
21. McNeese
22. SDSU
23. Wofford
24. UCA
25. Yale

[TheRevSFA]

Sorry pokes, but McNeese

[McNeese72]

Sorry pokes, but McNeese

No need to be sorry, I agree. We've gone from deep runs in the playoffs to can't win a playoff game to can't even make the playoffs half the time.

Doc

[melloware13]

I knew this was coming when I saw the thread title. xdrunkyxxbangx

[underdawg]

I knew this was coming when I saw the thread title. xdrunkyxxbangx

Yeh such threads are made by fans who think they won't be included in it, to make themselves feel better

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Yeh such threads are made by fans who think they won't be included in it, to make themselves feel better


Nothing wrong with this thread. Good topic.

[OL FU]

Nothing wrong with this thread. Good topic.
it's a good topic unless your school is mentioned in one if the first few posts:(

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

it's a good topic unless your school is mentioned in one if the first few posts:(


Ya, I suppose.

How is Furman going to be this year? I thought they would have made a deep playoff run in 14 after watching them in the FargoDome in 13.

[APaladindad]

Ya, I suppose.

How is Furman going to be this year? I thought they would have made a deep playoff run in 14 after watching them in the FargoDome in 13.
Here is a summary of 2014:
2014 INJURED FURMAN PLAYERS WHO HAVE STARTED, PLAYED, BEEN LISTED ON TWO-DEEP, AND/OR PERFORMED ON SPECIAL TEAMS
Player Condition Games Missed Notes
Charlie Anderson, FB..............Torn ACL.........................................8..... ...........Serving as backup FB at time of injury 3 weeks into season; out
Rodney Anderson, S...............Sprained Ankle/Concussion...........5................Missed WCU, CCU (concussion), VMI, CIT, WOF (ankle); 6 starts, 21 tack., 1 TFL, 1 PBU; probable
Thomas Brown, S...................Fractured Arm................................3.............. ..Missed VMI, CIT, WOF (arm); 4 starts (for injured Rodney Anderson/Trey Robinson), 26 tack., 2 FR, FR, 2 PBU; out
Jackson Buonomia, OT...........Sprained Ankle..............................2.............. ..Missed CIT, WOF (ankle); 5 starts at C before moving to OT; out
Ernie Cain, FB.........................Torn ACL.........................................3..... ...........Injured in spring (surgery); missed entire preseason, first 3g
James Elliott, DE.....................Concussion................. ....................1................Missed WOF; probable
Charles Emert, OT...................Concussion................... ..................4................Concussion vs. USC; ‘14 Preseason All-SoCon; FU’s most experienced OL (41g, 36 starts, 2,282 plays); out
Donovan Franks, CB................Sports Hernia.................................4.......... ......Special teams contributor; backup CB; missed entire preseason
Reese Hannon, QB..................Fractured Ankle............................10............... Injured (3Q) vs. G-W; ‘14 Preseason All-SoCon; 9-3 as starting QB (FU 1-10 w/o Hannon); out
Richard Hayes III, NIC.............Back Strain.....................................1...... ..........Missed CIT (shoulder); injured on opening KOR vs. VMI; made first career start at NIC before exiting game
Danny LaMontagne, SN..........Fractured Ankle.............................4............... .Missed SAM, VMI, CIT, WOF; injured vs. USC; ‘12 SoCon All-Frosh; every snap over last 3 years (31g) prior to injury; out
Hank McCloud, RB..................Dislocated Elbow/Hamstring.........2................Missed G-W, CIT (hamstring); dislocated elbow in car accident; missed preseason w/hamstring strain; questionable
Harrison Monk, OT..................Sprained Ankle..............................4.............. ..Missed WCU, CCU, USC, CIT (ankle); injured vs. S.C. State; 4 starts at LT prior to injury; questionable
Brian Nwokolo, DE..................Torn ACL.........................................7..... ...........Missed CIT, WOF (knee) special teams contributor; injured vs. VMI; out
A.K. Olusanya, S.....................Hamstring Strain...........................7................ Missed preseason, first 7g; made career debut vs. SAM following injury to Rodney Anderson
Sebastian Rice, OT..................Fractured Leg.................................9............. ...Battling with Harrison Monk for starting job at LT when injured in preseason; out
Carl Rider, LB..........................Torn Labrum.................................10......... ......Injured in spring (surgery); 3 plays vs. MER; ‘13 All-SoCon (136 tackles, 2nd in SoCon in ‘13); out
Trey Robinson, S.....................Mononucleosis............... ................3................‘13 SoCon All-Frosh; CSJ Freshman All-America; ‘14 Preseason All-SoCon; 6 starts, 34 tack., FR, 5 PBU, BLK FG
Sean Rusnak, S.......................Sprained Ankle..............................3.............. ..Missed VMI, CIT; injured after coming off bench in career debut vs. SAM; out
Tanner Skogen, RB.................Torn Labrum..................................1......... .......Injured in spring (surgery); limited in preseason, early season games
Hunter Tremaine, S.................Fractured Arm................................1.............. ..Missed CIT, WOF; walkon special teams performer; injured in 1st career start at safety vs.VMI; out
Grayson Webber, OT...............Back Strain....................................10...... .........Listed as backup RT heading into preseason; out
Antonio Wilcox, RB.................Sprained Ankle..............................3.............. ..Missed VMI, CIT, WOF. switched from S to RB in fall due to injuries in backfield; out
2013 Injuries Impacting 2014
Gary Robinson, WR.................Fractured Ankle............................16............... Starter, leading rec. (24 rec., 2 TDs, including 8 rec., 133 yds. vs. CIT) at time of inj. (ASU ‘13); 3 surgeries; no action ’14; out
Terry Robinson, QB.................Torn ACL, MCL, PCL.......................18...............Wildcat QB (4 rushing TDs, including 2 vs. CIT) at time of inj. (Elon ‘13); reconstructive surgery; no action ’14; out
Other
Jairus Hollman, NIC................Dismissed (May ‘14)*.......................................‘ 13 All-SoCon; 112 tackles, 11.5 TFL, 3 INT, 10 PBU, 34-yard INT (TD); 90-yard PR (TD)
Eric Thoni, C............................Dismissed (May ‘14)*.......................................‘ 12 SoCon All-Frosh, College Sports Journal Freshman All-American; two-year starter (2012 & ‘13)
Shawn Boone, DE...................Dismissed (Oct. ‘14).........................................Playe d in 43g, 26 starts; career 93 tackles, 10 sacks
*Action taken post-NCAA signing date, spring practice
Underline (All-SoCon honoree)

[KPSUL]

Here is a summary of 2014:
2014 INJURED FURMAN PLAYERS WHO HAVE STARTED, PLAYED, BEEN LISTED ON TWO-DEEP, AND/OR PERFORMED ON SPECIAL TEAMS
Player Condition Games Missed Notes
Charlie Anderson, FB..............Torn ACL.........................................8..... ...........Serving as backup FB at time of injury 3 weeks into season; out
Rodney Anderson, S...............Sprained Ankle/Concussion...........5................Missed WCU, CCU (concussion), VMI, CIT, WOF (ankle); 6 starts, 21 tack., 1 TFL, 1 PBU; probable
Thomas Brown, S...................Fractured Arm................................3.............. ..Missed VMI, CIT, WOF (arm); 4 starts (for injured Rodney Anderson/Trey Robinson), 26 tack., 2 FR, FR, 2 PBU; out
Jackson Buonomia, OT...........Sprained Ankle..............................2.............. ..Missed CIT, WOF (ankle); 5 starts at C before moving to OT; out
Ernie Cain, FB.........................Torn ACL.........................................3..... ...........Injured in spring (surgery); missed entire preseason, first 3g
James Elliott, DE.....................Concussion................. ....................1................Missed WOF; probable
Charles Emert, OT...................Concussion................... ..................4................Concussion vs. USC; ‘14 Preseason All-SoCon; FU’s most experienced OL (41g, 36 starts, 2,282 plays); out
Donovan Franks, CB................Sports Hernia.................................4.......... ......Special teams contributor; backup CB; missed entire preseason
Reese Hannon, QB..................Fractured Ankle............................10............... Injured (3Q) vs. G-W; ‘14 Preseason All-SoCon; 9-3 as starting QB (FU 1-10 w/o Hannon); out
Richard Hayes III, NIC.............Back Strain.....................................1...... ..........Missed CIT (shoulder); injured on opening KOR vs. VMI; made first career start at NIC before exiting game
Danny LaMontagne, SN..........Fractured Ankle.............................4............... .Missed SAM, VMI, CIT, WOF; injured vs. USC; ‘12 SoCon All-Frosh; every snap over last 3 years (31g) prior to injury; out
Hank McCloud, RB..................Dislocated Elbow/Hamstring.........2................Missed G-W, CIT (hamstring); dislocated elbow in car accident; missed preseason w/hamstring strain; questionable
Harrison Monk, OT..................Sprained Ankle..............................4.............. ..Missed WCU, CCU, USC, CIT (ankle); injured vs. S.C. State; 4 starts at LT prior to injury; questionable
Brian Nwokolo, DE..................Torn ACL.........................................7..... ...........Missed CIT, WOF (knee) special teams contributor; injured vs. VMI; out
A.K. Olusanya, S.....................Hamstring Strain...........................7................ Missed preseason, first 7g; made career debut vs. SAM following injury to Rodney Anderson
Sebastian Rice, OT..................Fractured Leg.................................9............. ...Battling with Harrison Monk for starting job at LT when injured in preseason; out
Carl Rider, LB..........................Torn Labrum.................................10......... ......Injured in spring (surgery); 3 plays vs. MER; ‘13 All-SoCon (136 tackles, 2nd in SoCon in ‘13); out
Trey Robinson, S.....................Mononucleosis............... ................3................‘13 SoCon All-Frosh; CSJ Freshman All-America; ‘14 Preseason All-SoCon; 6 starts, 34 tack., FR, 5 PBU, BLK FG
Sean Rusnak, S.......................Sprained Ankle..............................3.............. ..Missed VMI, CIT; injured after coming off bench in career debut vs. SAM; out
Tanner Skogen, RB.................Torn Labrum..................................1......... .......Injured in spring (surgery); limited in preseason, early season games
Hunter Tremaine, S.................Fractured Arm................................1.............. ..Missed CIT, WOF; walkon special teams performer; injured in 1st career start at safety vs.VMI; out
Grayson Webber, OT...............Back Strain....................................10...... .........Listed as backup RT heading into preseason; out
Antonio Wilcox, RB.................Sprained Ankle..............................3.............. ..Missed VMI, CIT, WOF. switched from S to RB in fall due to injuries in backfield; out
2013 Injuries Impacting 2014
Gary Robinson, WR.................Fractured Ankle............................16............... Starter, leading rec. (24 rec., 2 TDs, including 8 rec., 133 yds. vs. CIT) at time of inj. (ASU ‘13); 3 surgeries; no action ’14; out
Terry Robinson, QB.................Torn ACL, MCL, PCL.......................18...............Wildcat QB (4 rushing TDs, including 2 vs. CIT) at time of inj. (Elon ‘13); reconstructive surgery; no action ’14; out
Other
Jairus Hollman, NIC................Dismissed (May ‘14)*.......................................‘ 13 All-SoCon; 112 tackles, 11.5 TFL, 3 INT, 10 PBU, 34-yard INT (TD); 90-yard PR (TD)
Eric Thoni, C............................Dismissed (May ‘14)*.......................................‘ 12 SoCon All-Frosh, College Sports Journal Freshman All-American; two-year starter (2012 & ‘13)
Shawn Boone, DE...................Dismissed (Oct. ‘14).........................................Playe d in 43g, 26 starts; career 93 tackles, 10 sacks
*Action taken post-NCAA signing date, spring practice
Underline (All-SoCon honoree)


Looks like somebody needs a new conditioning and strengthening coach!

[KPSUL]

Unquestionably Northeastern University. You can't get much more regressed than deceased.

[centennial]

Delaware. Went from one of the FCS teams to follow to average. I just can't understand it, Delaware has so much money, above average interest and tradition but still can't win.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Delaware. Went from one of the FCS teams to follow to average. I just can't understand it, Delaware has so much money, above average interest and tradition but still can't win.

Delaware started to waiver a little bit the last 4-5 years under Raymond. He had one ridiculously good team in 2000 but the other 4 or 5 were rather ho-hum iirc. I think the overall downfall of UD football (from a consistency standpoint) actually started around 1998 or so.

Delaware and Nebraska are similar to me. Both struggled with their identities once the wing-T and option became nearly obsolete in the early 2000's....

[ngineer]

Unquestionably Northeastern University. You can't get much more regressed than deceased.

Howabout Hofstra?

[JALMOND]

I'll include my school, Portland State, here. A decade ago, Walsh had us contending in the Big Sky. Games were interestingly fun and we'd be included in the talk of the top of the Big Sky. So we let Walsh go because he wasn't "showy" enough and brought in Glanville. People here in this city don't realize that Glanville's first game was at McNeese State, both teams were ranked and great things were predicted for the Vikings. But things have been going downhill since then. It would be much more sad around here if people actually came out and watched the games. Being "showy" didn't bring them out, for sure. Funny, though, now the people say they'll watch us when we start winning, but they didn't come out back when we were winning.

[Tribe4SF]

I'll go with Hampton. They were consistently ranked in the Top a decade ago and were the best HBCU nearly every year. Now they're a mess.



Correct, except for your last sentence. They now have the right coach, and last year's very young team has been joined by QB David Watford who transferred from UVA. Look for them to rise back up quickly.

[OL FU]

Ya, I suppose.

How is Furman going to be this year? I thought they would have made a deep playoff run in 14 after watching them in the FargoDome in 13.

If last year had been a mediocre year that could be blamed on injuries, I would be very confident going into this year (subject to those same type of injuries not occurring again). But it wasn't. It was an awful and confusing year. We played a really good CCU team losing in overtime in a game that we arguably should have won. We then got absolutely crushed by a good but not great Samford team. Lost to a bad VMI team, that while we hadn't play in a while, that had not beaten us in the previous 20 games we played. SOOOOOOooooooooooo, I am cautious.

We should be good. but will we be good enough is the question. The schedule works against us. 2 FBS games (we had our streak of wins against the FBS in the 80s, not as recent as yours). We play CCU again which will be top ten without a doubt and maybe top 5. We play the most difficult SoCon teams on the road. Chattanooga, Samford, WCU and Wofford. Still I am optimistic. but as I said in a different thread, after last year, 6-5, this year, might actually be looked at as somewhat successful.

[FormerPokeCenter]

App State and Georgia Southern...

You can't get much more regressed than stepping down to the Sun Belt.

But, if you're talking about teams that haven't opted to find easier competition, I'd have to go with McNeese, Delawara and YSU, in no particular order...

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Might be Delaware. Sad but true. Getting fired and landing at Sam Houston could prove to be a good thing for KC Keeler's career.

I'm not sure you can say Montana and Furman are there yet...there is a difference between having a slump (i.e. Furman in the early to mid 90s) and actually regressing as a program.

I still feel like it's only a matter of time before the Griz get a coach that would be in the top 10 of the FCS and they will be hell on wheels.

[mvemjsunpx]

I'll include my school, Portland State, here. A decade ago, Walsh had us contending in the Big Sky. Games were interestingly fun and we'd be included in the talk of the top of the Big Sky. So we let Walsh go because he wasn't "showy" enough and brought in Glanville. People here in this city don't realize that Glanville's first game was at McNeese State, both teams were ranked and great things were predicted for the Vikings. But things have been going downhill since then. It would be much more sad around here if people actually came out and watched the games. Being "showy" didn't bring them out, for sure. Funny, though, now the people say they'll watch us when we start winning, but they didn't come out back when we were winning.

Let Walsh go? Didn't Walsh leave on his own to go coach with Bobby Ross?

[OL FU]

Might be Delaware. Sad but true. Getting fired and landing at Sam Houston could prove to be a good thing for KC Keeler's career.

I'm not sure you can say Montana and Furman are there yet...there is a difference between having a slump (i.e. Furman in the early to mid 90s) and actually regressing as a program.

I still feel like it's only a matter of time before the Griz get a coach that would be in the top 10 of the FCS and they will be hell on wheels.

I agree. I don't think you can argue that Furman has slipped. The question is have we fallen to the depths of others and is it a slump or long term. If you go back to the 80s, we have certainly slipped. Year in and out, contenders then. IF you go back ten years ago, in 2004 and 2005 we were arguably as good as we ever were, so there is no doubt we have been in a drought. The last half of 2013 showed promise of getting back. I personally think that is the view of the future. It might not be this year and if it isn't then 2016 is looking very good with a stockpile of players who will be seniors.

Anyway, time will tell.

[carney2]

Lehigh is not even Top (Bottom?) 10 in this list of dumpster divers, but they have been so dreadful for the past two years that they at least deserve a mention.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh is not even Top (Bottom?) 10 in this list of dumpster divers, but they have been so dreadful for the past two years that they at least deserve a mention.

Lehigh was 8-3 and spent most of the year in the Top 25 in 2013 while using 3 different starting QB's. 8 wins is the Lafayette high-water mark for the last 30+ years. A Lafayette fan calling 8-3 "so dreadful" is beyond priceless....

Lehigh's record the last 5 years
10-3
11-2
10-1
8-3
3-8

[TheRevSFA]

I would argue SFA but we've become so damn cyclic that I don't know how to place us

[centennial]

Lehigh was 8-3 and spent most of the year in the Top 25 in 2013 while using 3 different starting QB's. 8 wins is the Lafayette high-water mark for the last 30+ years. A Lafayette fan calling 8-3 "so dreadful" is beyond priceless....

Lehigh's record the last 5 years
10-3
11-2
10-1
8-3
3-8
Are you guys going to get back to your winning ways? What is the problem?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Are you guys going to get back to your winning ways? What is the problem?

The defense was bad in 2013 but got even worse in 2014. The 2013 team had a lot of weapons, All-American wr in Kurfis and really good RB in Sherman. QB Bialkowski was keeping up with Vernon Adams before he got hurt during the Bucknell mess. They beat UNH and an 8-2 Princeton team early in the year.

Last year the DLine was extremely undersized which led to all shorts of problems. Having a new OC and DC did not help either. I think they'll be improved but still a year away from really making a splash nationally again. Another losing season and Coen will feel the pressure.

Lehigh is not immune from bad seasons. They've had some ugly ones the last 20-25 years. The difference from them and most of the other PL schools is their ability to bounce back at a pretty high level within 2-3 years. The last time Lehigh went 3-8, 1992, they responded with a 7-4 league title in '93.

[JALMOND]

Let Walsh go? Didn't Walsh leave on his own to go coach with Bobby Ross?

Walsh' buddy, Stan Brock, took over for Ross at Army and offered Walsh the OC job. Yeah, we didn't let him go, but there was quite a few that were happy he left. At the time, the feeling was that winning wasn't getting anyone in the seats, that we needed someone like Allen was, showy and flashy (Walsh never did get out of Pokey's shadow). So we got Glanville, a great example of "Be careful what you wish for". Now, they say if we win, they will come, but we went down that road 10 years ago.

[CHIP72]

From the Ivies: Penn. Their level has sunk to a cellar dweller in the past 5 seasons or so, as Harvard, Yale and even Dartmouth took their positions in the top of the Ivy order.

Nationally: Delaware.

More like the last 2 seasons; they won the Ivy League in 2012 (albeit with a significantly weaker team than their 2009 and 2010 league champs).

[PaladinFan]

Looks like somebody needs a new conditioning and strengthening coach!

Hard to know what to make of that list. Injuries are part of football. That many injuries seems indicative of something deeper than just bad luck.

As I said at the end of last season, Furman needed to do a top down analysis to figure out what went wrong in 2014. Furman's got a decent team, they just have struggled to stay healthy.

[WWII]

Unquestionably Northeastern University. You can't get much more regressed than deceased.

Tied with Hofstra?

[caribbeanhen]

Delaware started to waiver a little bit the last 4-5 years under Raymond. He had one ridiculously good team in 2000 but the other 4 or 5 were rather ho-hum iirc. I think the overall downfall of UD football (from a consistency standpoint) actually started around 1998 or so.

Delaware and Nebraska are similar to me. Both struggled with their identities once the wing-T and option became nearly obsolete in the early 2000's....

Well since the thread is last decade, Delaware has been to the Finals twice since 2007 but if you want to change the title to past 5 years I have no argument, the wind was knocked out of there sails with the 2010 collapse and actually the University doesnt appear to put much emphasis on winning.

but you take your example back to 1998, Delaware has been to the Finals three times and a semi final in 2000 and 1997, so if that's a the biggest downfall I will take it

[AmsterBison]

Dark horse: Northern Colorado. I ran the numbers and compared # of wins between 1995 and 2004 to # of wins 2005 to 2014.

Northern Colorado's win pct went from .714 to .196.
UC Davis went from .720 to .438
Western Illinois went from .667 to .395
Georgetown went from .556 to .284
Murray State went from .623 to .354

Prairie View A&M went from .113 to .551 - a candidate for most improved?

[Bisonator]

Dark horse: Northern Colorado. I ran the numbers and compared # of wins between 1995 and 2004 to # of wins 2005 to 2014.

Northern Colorado's win pct went from .714 to .196.
UC Davis went from .720 to .438
Western Illinois went from .667 to .395
Georgetown went from .556 to .284
Murray State went from .623 to .354

Prairie View A&M went from .113 to .551 - a candidate for most improved?

Kind of forgot about Northern Colorado. Hard to believe how far that program has fallen.

[ElonFirefighter]

I would have to throw Elon in the mix, though it was less then a 10 year drop. 2006 when we started our rise and produced a few good seasons before dropping to where we are today. Its a hard comparison because we sit it a more competitive conference, but we have taken a step back and are working our way out of the hole our previous coach put us in.

[bobcathpdevil56]

Cal-state Northridge. Man we could never beat those guys back in the day. Now they are a guaranteed W.

[FormerPokeCenter]

App State and Georgia Southern...

But, if you're talking about teams that haven't opted to find easier competition, I'd have to go with McNeese, Delaware and YSU, in no particular order...

Speaking of regressed programs....I can't believe none of you repped me for this one!

[Houndawg]

SIU is coming on strong as a prime contender. Good chance of having our worst season since Jerry Kill's first season.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

SIU is coming on strong as a prime contender. Good chance of having our worst season since Jerry Kill's first season.


Why hasn't Lennon got it done with his recruits? DL is a good coach and SIU is in a good geographic area for recruiting.....what is it for him and his staff?

[clenz]

Why hasn't Lennon got it done with his recruits? DL is a good coach and SIU is in a good geographic area for recruiting.....what is it for him and his staff?
I know SIU fan will have some snark comeback to this, because I'm the one saying it but, SIU is a sub .500 program other than Kill and a brief stint in the 80s. It seems weird to think that because when SIU was under kill they were so good you'd have a hard time believing there weren't always that good and wouldn't always be that good.

I'd love for SIU to get back to the Kill days. Imagine a conference with NDSU, SDSU, UNI, SIU and ISUR all at full strength. You have 5 legit top 10-15 programs right there

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[BisonFan02]

I know SIU fan will have some snark comeback to this, because I'm the one saying it but, SIU is a sub .500 program other than Kill and a brief stint in the 80s. It seems weird to think that because when SIU was under kill they were so good you'd have a hard time believing there weren't always that good and wouldn't always be that good.

I'd love for SIU to get back to the Kill days. Imagine a conference with NDSU, SDSU, UNI, SIU and ISUR all at full strength. You have 5 legit top 10-15 programs right there

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Yeah...but teams can rise/fall. Believe it or not, USD used to be the "football" school down in SD until they went all "DII" and watched SDSU fly by them. I think the MVFC will consistently have 4-5 programs towards the top of the FCS going forward...with #s 4 and 5 playing a little "musical chairs"...

http://www.gobison.com/sports/1986/12/13/865301013.aspx?id=2126

[Bisonoline]

Why hasn't Lennon got it done with his recruits? DL is a good coach and SIU is in a good geographic area for recruiting.....what is it for him and his staff?

From what I understand is The area SIU recruits is an extremely difficult. Think socio-economics etc.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Yeah...but teams can rise/fall. Believe it or not, USD used to be the "football" school down in SD until they went all "DII" and watched SDSU fly by them. I think the MVFC will consistently have 4-5 programs towards the top of the FCS going forward...with #s 4 and 5 playing a little "musical chairs"...

http://www.gobison.com/sports/1986/12/13/865301013.aspx?id=2126


USD had a good run in the middle 80s but I think they played something like 7-8 playoff games in D2...IIRC.

But they have been a poor D1 team, they beat the Gophers but that has been their high point. I think Glenn is too old to turn that program around. Plus I don't think they will ever be a consistent top team in the Valley. Maybe a year here and there but never a consistent power.

[McNeese72]

Speaking of regressed programs....I can't believe none of you repped me for this one!

Why? You were being Captain Obvious. ;)

Doc

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

From what I understand is The area SIU recruits is an extremely difficult. Think socio-economics etc.

Never thought about that factor PL. But you would think it would be a great area to draw recruits, esp when SIU is fully funded at 63 schollies.

I wonder how long Lennon has if he keeps up the mediocre years?



Edit: Maybe houndawg can answer this. What did Killl do that Lennon has not? Kill was successful so it can be done down there in Carbondale.

[clenz]

Never thought about that factor PL. But you would think it would be a great area to draw recruits, esp when SIU is fully funded at 63 schollies.

I wonder how long Lennon has if he keeps up the mediocre years?
SIU may have issues getting rid of him. I haven't really followed the news out of Carbondale real close the last 3 or 4 months but this past spring the cash strapped upper ed in the state of Illinois decided to cut $44m from SIU's budget with a large portion coming from athletics. That may have changed or never actually be a real thing, but it was reported in the SIU student paper.

Should that actually come to fruition there won't be money to get rid of him...or any coaches at SIU...through a buy out

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

SIU may have issues getting rid of him. I haven't really followed the news out of Carbondale real close the last 3 or 4 months but this past spring the cash strapped upper ed in the state of Illinois decided to cut $44m from SIU's budget with a large portion coming from athletics. That may have changed or never actually be a real thing, but it was reported in the SIU student paper.

Should that actually come to fruition there won't be money to get rid of him...or any coaches at SIU...through a buy out



Maybe you know since you have been following the Valley longer.

What did Kill do that Lennon has not? Kill was successful so it can be done down in Carbondale. Both are nice guys and good coaches.

[heath]

JMU
won the title,in a great conference, bad losses with a ton of excuses,and off the field problems, Mickey should have lead this team to greatness, but lack of discipline runs a great program down.

[clenz]

A quick look at SIU's all time record, broken by coach






Coach

First
Last
Years
Games
Win
Loss
Tie
Pct.



Sam Patterson (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2786)

1917

1917

1

4
2
2
0
0.50000



William Lodge (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2782)

1919

1919

1

4
2
2
0
0.50000



William McAndrew (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2784)

1913

1938

22

182
82
80
20
0.50549



Glenn "Abe" Martin (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2783)

1939

1949

10

78
31
42
5
0.42949



Bill Waller (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2791)

1950

1951

2

18
3
14
1
0.19444



William O'Brien (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2785)

1952

1954

3

26
6
20
0
0.23077



Albert P. Kawal (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=1228)

1955

1958

4

37
20
15
2
0.56757



Carmen Piccone (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2787)

1959

1963

5

48
28
20
0
0.58333



Don Shroyer (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2788)

1964

1965

2

20
4
16
0
0.20000



Ellis Rainsberger (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=1930)

1966

1966

1

10
4
5
1
0.45000



Dick Towers (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2790)

1967

1973

7

69
30
37
2
0.44928



Doug Weaver (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2458)

1974

1975

2

22
3
18
1
0.15909



Rey Dempsey (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=560)

1976

1983

8

91
54
37
0
0.59341



Ray Dorr (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2780)

1984

1987

4

44
17
27
0
0.38636



Rick Rhoades (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=1969)

1988

1988

1

11
4
7
0
0.36364



Bob Smith (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2789)

1989

1993

5

55
17
38
0
0.30909



Shawn Watson (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2792)

1994

1996

3

33
11
22
0
0.33333



Jan Quarless (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=1920)

1997

2000

4

44
14
30
0
0.31818



Jerry Kill (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=2781)

2001

2007

7

87
55
32
0
0.63218



Dale Lennon (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=4275)

2008

2014

7

82
48
34
0
0.58537








Totals





102

968
436
500
32
0.46694




Kill took over a SIU program that was 60-116 since the Gateway was formed in 85. He managed just 5-18 in his first two years in which he had to clean house of the previous regimes players and attitudes. Once he got his program up and running his way he went 50-14 in his remaining years. Lennon came in and rode Kill's players to a great start (20-5 his first two years). Once it was his program (he shaped the underclassmen and brought his players in) things started to go back to where they had been. 28-29 since. This might be the reality for SIU. I don't know how Kill was able to do what he did, and we're seeing him do it in Minnesota too amazingly enough and he was 100% the reason for the foundation at NIU for the two BCS bowl games they got with Lynch, but it seems like everyone else has struggled at SIU.

The UNI/SIU games from 02-08 were completely unmatched.

[clenz]

Maybe you know since you have been following the Valley longer.

What did Kill do that Lennon has not? Kill was successful so it can be done down in Carbondale. Both are nice guys and good coaches.
No idea. Like I said in the post before this one, I really have no idea. Kill seems to be able work magic wherever he is.





Year

Team
Win
Loss
Tie
Pct.
PF
PA
Delta



1994 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=1994)
Saginaw Valley St. (MI)


6

4

0

0.60000

294

220

74



1995 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=1995)
Saginaw Valley St. (MI)


7

3

0

0.70000

359

234

125



1996 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=1996)
Saginaw Valley St. (MI)


7

3

0

0.70000

269

157

112



1997 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=1997)
Saginaw Valley St. (MI)


9

2

0

0.81818

457

209

248



1998 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=1998)
Saginaw Valley St. (MI)


9

2

0

0.81818

467

222

245



1999 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=1999)
Emporia St. (KS)


5

6

0

0.45455

299

247

52



2000 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2000)
Emporia St. (KS)


6

5

0

0.54545

293

236

57



2001 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2001)
Southern Illinois


1

10

0

0.09091

167

339

-172



2002 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2002)
Southern Illinois


4

8

0

0.33333

414

360

54



2003 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2003)
Southern Illinois


10

2

0

0.83333

437

229

208



2004 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2004)
Southern Illinois


10

2

0

0.83333

511

158

353



2005 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2005)
Southern Illinois


9

4

0

0.69231

449

298

151



2006 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2006)
Southern Illinois


9

4

0

0.69231

448

256

192



2007 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2007)
Southern Illinois


12

2

0

0.85714

530

243

287



2008 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2008)
Northern Illinois


6

7

0

0.46154

314

234

80



2009 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2009)
Northern Illinois


7

6

0

0.53846

372

281

91



2010 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2010)
Northern Illinois


10

3

0

0.76923

492

248

244



2011 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2011)
Minnesota


3

9

0

0.25000

221

380

-159



2012 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2012)
Minnesota


6

7

0

0.46154

287

321

-34



2013 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2013)
Minnesota


4

2

0

0.66667

191

124

67



2014 (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_game_by_game.php?coachid=2781&year=2014)
Minnesota


8

5

0

0.61538

369

314

55









Totals
148
96
0
0.60656
7640
5310
2330






Go look a those programs before he got there and see what he's been able to do at places that others haven't been able too. I'm really not trying to knock SIU and say they are the most regressed, as I don't think they are. It is just odd to see what SIU is now compared to the SIU I was "introduced too" when I really started following the FCS "hard core" in the 01/02 years. I think it's possible for SIU to get back to their mid-00s but I don't know that Lennon is the one to do it. It's going to take someone like Kill. What that entails vs what Lennon does I don't know. I don't follow SIU close enough to understand the intricacies of the coaching staff vs Kill.

Interestingly though, this isn't just a football thing at SIU right now. If you go look at their athletic department as a whole you'd see this same kind of regression across the board it seems like. Their mens basketball team has gone from a top 20 program that had a top 20 national signing class to a bottom 2 or 3 in the conference every single year in the same time frame that the football team took "the dive". A part of that I think is due to the budget issues in Illinois - and that's not specific to SIU-C, but they seem to be taking the most shots out of all the Illinois schools. Their basketball program couldn't afford the buy out on a coach who ran them so far into the ground it's unrecognizable.

The rebound is there for SIU to have, but I think it's an institutional/systematic issue at this point, and not just a football thing.

I'd love to have an SIU fan correct me though on anything I'm wrong on...not the typical and predictable replies from underdawg and hounddawg

[DFW HOYA]

I ran the numbers and compared # of wins between 1995 and 2004 to # of wins 2005 to 2014.

Northern Colorado's win pct went from .714 to .196.
UC Davis went from .720 to .438
Western Illinois went from .667 to .395
Georgetown went from .556 to .284
Murray State went from .623 to .354


Excepting the 2011 season (the one season the PL asks "Georgetown 8-3, what the heck was that?"), Georgetown's numbers would drop to .234.

Regressed? In some ways, yes. But the strength of schedule from 1995-04 wasn't very strong, either.

[OL FU]

I would have to throw Elon in the mix, though it was less then a 10 year drop. 2006 when we started our rise and produced a few good seasons before dropping to where we are today. Its a hard comparison because we sit it a more competitive conference, but we have taken a step back and are working our way out of the hole our previous coach put us in.

No offense but no one noticed:p

[FUBeAR]

No offense but no one noticed:p

C'mon OL FU, that's not fair. I'm sure some people at the center of Elon's fanbase, in North Jersey or Long Island, noticed. xrotatehx

[PaladinFan]

No offense but no one noticed:p

Elon should not be in the conversation. Elon was awful when they joined the FCS. They were good for 4 or 5 years (with maybe one playoff appearance and first round exit?) and are back to being awful.

Some might argue that Elon is just back to being Elon.

[underdawg]

Right--if you guys really want to know why the mediocre records lately for SIU, it has of course had to do with recruiting, injuries--- and a little thing called the entrance of the Dakotas into the league---Did you guys know that Kill voted Against letting NDSU into the league? The Bison are basically the whole ballgame in ND (basically the only power in D-1 in sparesly populated ND) and Kill knew the ball game was over when they got in. When Kill's teams got going it was basically them and Clentz's beloved UNI ruling the roost.

The fact is that Lennon's record against the Panthers was about five hundred--He couldn't beat UNI at Frost Bite Falls--Lennon did. The Dawgs could be very improved over last year and still finish fifth in the league because it has improve immeasurable since Kill was here.

[ElonFirefighter]

Paladin we wern't awful when we joined. We should of made the playoffs but at the time we were not eligible. We suffered through through a good D2 coach trying to find traction and a D1 coach that didn't belong in rec league. Granted due to our newness in this division 10 years ago its hard to compare. And yes we have returned to where we were when we officially were Big South members but we shall rise again. 4 coaches in the past 10 years hasn't helped.

OLFU no one noticed!!! Well im glad you don't think we were a team that dropped ;)

[clenz]

The fact is that Lennon's record against the Panthers was about five hundred--He couldn't beat UNI at Frost Bite Falls--Lennon did. The Dawgs could be very improved over last year and still finish fifth in the league because it has improve immeasurable since Kill was here.
The only thing that seems to matter to SIU and it's fans like underdawg is bolded above.

When all else fails for them - they are sub .500 the last half decade they could always point out "We still beat you in Cedar Falls and you didn't beat us in Carbondale"

Well, that is no longer the case and Lennon now has to prove he can return to beating UNI.

It's kind of like Michigan/OSU in that if the record is mediocre it's acceptable as long as you beat UNI

[OL FU]

Paladin we wern't awful when we joined. We should of made the playoffs but at the time we were not eligible. We suffered through through a good D2 coach trying to find traction and a D1 coach that didn't belong in rec league. Granted due to our newness in this division 10 years ago its hard to compare. And yes we have returned to where we were when we officially were Big South members but we shall rise again. 4 coaches in the past 10 years hasn't helped.

OLFU no one noticed!!! Well im glad you don't think we were a team that dropped ;)

:) On the other hand, I don't think it is good that people noticed usxembarrassedx

[ElonFirefighter]

:) On the other hand, I don't think it is good that people noticed usxembarrassedx

I deff noticed your drop. But a big reason for that was my first College game that I attended was the 57-7 drubbing you laid on us back in 2003 at your place in the monsoon.

[underdawg]

The only thing that seems to matter to SIU and it's fans like underdawg is bolded above.

When all else fails for them - they are sub .500 the last half decade they could always point out "We still beat you in Cedar Falls and you didn't beat us in Carbondale"

Well, that is no longer the case and Lennon now has to prove he can return to beating UNI.

It's kind of like Michigan/OSU in that if the record is mediocre it's acceptable as long as you beat UNI

You're seeing slights against you and your team when there are none on my part--I admire your coach and the program--Your point is that it's all Lennon's fault ---I state it is partially and also mentioned several other factors--I only mentioned both guys records against you to show that Lennon (whatever you think of him) did something that Kill could not--->beat a great program like UNI at their place. I hope that clears things up for you

[PaladinFan]

Paladin we wern't awful when we joined. We should of made the playoffs but at the time we were not eligible. We suffered through through a good D2 coach trying to find traction and a D1 coach that didn't belong in rec league. Granted due to our newness in this division 10 years ago its hard to compare. And yes we have returned to where we were when we officially were Big South members but we shall rise again. 4 coaches in the past 10 years hasn't helped.

OLFU no one noticed!!! Well im glad you don't think we were a team that dropped ;)

Since 1999 and joining the Big South, I count six winning seasons and one playoff appearance.

My general point is that Elon was never a really good team at the FCS level. They had a couple of good seasons, but for most of their FCS tenure have been below average. I don't see them as a team that has regressed, but as a team that is now doing what they have done most of their time at this level.

[PaladinFan]

I deff noticed your drop. But a big reason for that was my first College game that I attended was the 57-7 drubbing you laid on us back in 2003 at your place in the monsoon.

2002. Was the most one sided football game I have ever attended. Furman was up 35-0 at the end of the first quarter.

Furman WR Ike West's stats from that game are one of the most bizarre lines I have ever seen. 3 catches, 160 yards, 3 touchdowns. First two catches were 70+ yard scores. Most of the starters were done by the first quarter.

[ElonFirefighter]

Since 1999 and joining the Big South, I count six winning seasons and one playoff appearance.

My general point is that Elon was never a really good team at the FCS level. They had a couple of good seasons, but for most of their FCS tenure have been below average. I don't see them as a team that has regressed, but as a team that is now doing what they have done most of their time at this level.

And I am not saying your wrong, its the whole half full half empty. The way I see it is that we entered D1 and built a good team with national rankings. The transition is always hard and we moved forward as expected, but regressed from their. That being said its hard to even analyze us in the past decade when we have only been D1 for 13 years

[clenz]

You're seeing slights against you and your team when there are none on my part--I admire your coach and the program--Your point is that it's all Lennon's fault ---I state it is partially and also mentioned several other factors--I only mentioned both guys records against you to show that Lennon (whatever you think of him) did something that Kill could not--->beat a great program like UNI at their place. I hope that clears things up for you
I don't believe it's Lennon's fault - if you'd read my posts on this thread I've said that Lennon is actually doing what is historically what happens at SIU. Kill is the extreme outlier at SIU.

I've said I don't know what Kill did differently than Lennon is doing. It might be absolutely nothing. I've spent more time talking about how Kill seems to work magic anywhere he goes than talking about Lennon.

I would love for SIU of 05-09 to come back. Those games can't be matched by any other school when it comes to the atmosphere of the dome. I've been to multiple games in Fargo now against a couple different squads...the atmopshere of the Fargodome for the UNI games (even the UNIDome for the NDSU games) or the Fargodome for that Montana game last year doesn't even come close to SIU 07..or 09...

I don't know what the issue is.

My post you quoted was mostly tounge is cheek poking at pretty much every reply I ever get from you or hound - "UNI can't win in Carbondale" or "We may have only won 5 games this year but at least we beat UNI". It seems to be that is the attitude I get from most SIU fans. The record might not be great, we might not win the conference title, we might not make the playoffs....BUT, we beat UNI.

The big "knock" on Kill? He was "only" .500 against UNI.
The "saving grace" early on Lennon? He was beating UNI

I don't know if that's actually true within the institution, but it seems to be from the fan base that I've interacted with.

I've pointed more to the fact that it seems it's not easy to win in Carbondale, outside the Kill years, for SIU. I don't know why but it seems to be true. The fall off from Kill just so happened to coincide with the massive fall of the basketball program. I don't know if they are related or it's complete coincidence. Couple the historical records with the reported $44m cut to SIU-C and it seems like Lennon getting to 6 or 7 wins is a pretty damn good accomplishment.

I wasn't trying to make it seem like I took anything as a slight towards UNI, nor was I trying to take pot shots at SIU. I'm actually trying to have a logical discussion about SIU for once...:D

[ElonFirefighter]

2002. Was the most one sided football game I have ever attended. Furman was up 35-0 at the end of the first quarter.

Furman WR Ike West's stats from that game are one of the most bizarre lines I have ever seen. 3 catches, 160 yards, 3 touchdowns. First two catches were 70+ yard scores. Most of the starters were done by the first quarter.

Part of that game was due to weather, plus the 3 hour delay. The other an inexperienced newbie team out matched by a team with talent. But hey when your cheerleaders entered the game we were finally able to score

[Yote 53]

USD had a good run in the middle 80s but I think they played something like 7-8 playoff games in D2...IIRC.

But they have been a poor D1 team, they beat the Gophers but that has been their high point. I think Glenn is too old to turn that program around. Plus I don't think they will ever be a consistent top team in the Valley. Maybe a year here and there but never a consistent power.

We've had some serious bumps in the transition to FCS but I can tell you the feeling down here is that it is not acceptable to just exist in the same conference anymore. People want a winner and are not going to be happy until that day comes, which is a change to how it was in the 90's. Maybe Glenn gets it turned around in the next couple of years, maybe not. I do know this, the team that will take the field this season is a much, much more physical and more talented than any of our teams that played under Meierkort in the Great West while we made our transition. The difference is that the MVFC has gotten tougher and tougher every year we've been in it, and it isn't getting any easier.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

We've had some serious bumps in the transition to FCS but I can tell you the feeling down here is that it is not acceptable to just exist in the same conference anymore. People want a winner and are not going to be happy until that day comes, which is a change to how it was in the 90's. Maybe Glenn gets it turned around in the next couple of years, maybe not. I do know this, the team that will take the field this season is a much, much more physical and more talented than any of our teams that played under Meierkort in the Great West while we made our transition. The difference is that the MVFC has gotten tougher and tougher every year we've been in it, and it isn't getting any easier.

You need a new field. Get some of that Denny Sanford money!

[I-AA Fan]

I would not agree that UD has yet to prove themselves dominant of the decade. YSU did not go to the post-season 3 times in the 90s and Appy State did not go 5-times in the 2000's ...both would be the dominant teams of their respective decades. I would say from 1990 - 2005, the hens were quite dominating. Heck if NDSU did not go for the next 5-years, we would still call them the dominant team of the 2010's.

Duquesne has been less dominating under Schmitt, than they were under Gattuso. Robert Morris has dropped over the past decade as well. Used to be in the ECC bowl all the time. You CAA guys might remember Hofstra. The Dutch were always one of my favorite teams. Up until about 2004, then were a great team that also eventually dropped out of the football game.

Penn has really struggled as of late. Went from the only team that could truly win outside the Ivy to average or less in the conference. Holy Cross has really begun to slide over the past 5-6 years.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

We've had some serious bumps in the transition to FCS but I can tell you the feeling down here is that it is not acceptable to just exist in the same conference anymore. People want a winner and are not going to be happy until that day comes, which is a change to how it was in the 90's. Maybe Glenn gets it turned around in the next couple of years, maybe not. I do know this, the team that will take the field this season is a much, much more physical and more talented than any of our teams that played under Meierkort in the Great West while we made our transition. The difference is that the MVFC has gotten tougher and tougher every year we've been in it, and it isn't getting any easier.


Not to pile on but I thought last year was suppose to be the one that the Coyotes put a physical team on the field and take the next step to the upper half of the conference.

[RabidRabbit]

Yotes suffered serious injuryitis and had less than adequate support in the back-ups. Still believe Yotes will be cellar-dwellers in '15.

No Colo Bears as a D-I only (most of their 96-2003 were D-II) have been pathetic. Overall, the UNC as D-I has been an underwhelming experience. Have they won any conference title in any sport since moving up? xconfusedx

[clenz]

Yotes suffered serious injuryitis and had less than adequate support in the back-ups. Still believe Yotes will be cellar-dwellers in '15.

No Colo Bears as a D-I only (most of their 96-2003 were D-II) have been pathetic. Overall, the UNC as D-I has been an underwhelming experience. Have they won any conference title in any sport since moving up? xconfusedx
I think they did in men's basketball.

I think USD will struggle to go beyond UNCs success in football.

Other sports? I don't follow the Summit close enough to know

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[dewey]

I think they did in men's basketball.
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Northern Colorado won the regular season and the tournament conference championship in 2011.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Sky_Conference

As for other sports I saw they have won a women's basketball regular season title and 2 volleyball conference championships.

Dewey

[centennial]

I've known some UNC grads none of them give a damn about their athletic teams. Overall the community is apathetic towards the university sports. There is way too much going on like going to the mountains, supporting the Broncos, DU, CU or CSU. They are going to stay dungeon dwellers.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

No Colorado is a good candidate.

[parr90]

App State and Georgia Southern...

You can't get much more regressed than stepping down to the Sun Belt.

But, if you're talking about teams that haven't opted to find easier competition, I'd have to go with McNeese, Delawara and YSU, in no particular order...




OK

[catbob]

If this thread is about teams that were good FCS teams and then plummeted, UNC can't be in the conversation. They've been a terrible FCS team from day 1.

I don't think they wont a Big Sky Conference game until the third season (MSU unfortunately).

[msupokes1]

No need to be sorry, I agree. We've gone from deep runs in the playoffs to can't win a playoff game to can't even make the playoffs half the time.

Doc

I disagree. We have not been relevant at any point in the last decade so we couldn't not have dropped. We have dropped from where we were 2 decades ago. We have been mediocre, at best, since 2003.

[McNeese72]

I disagree. We have not been relevant at any point in the last decade so we couldn't not have dropped. We have dropped from where we were 2 decades ago. We have been mediocre, at best, since 2003.

I don't know. That 2007 team that went undefeated in the regular season was a pretty damned good team. We had some injuries right at the end of the season then laid the egg in the playoffs. But it was a pretty good team. We haven't been the same since.

[FormerPokeCenter]

2009 had the chance to be great...The win at App State was nice, but we fumbled away a win at Tulane....and then had end of season issues, as usual...

[whoanellie]

Elon should not be in the conversation. Elon was awful when they joined the FCS. They were good for 4 or 5 years (with maybe one playoff appearance and first round exit?) and are back to being awful.

Some might argue that Elon is just back to being Elon. Yes Elon has regressed, but a Furman squad that has lost 6 out of the last 7 meetings to the same old Phoenix tells a lot of both programs. Let's hope We both improve and will sometime meet in a play-off scenario.

[SENOREIDA]

In my mind it has to be Delaware. They can barely keep up with the CAA now.

[laxVik]

Portland State.

[KPSUL]

In my mind it has to be Delaware. They can barely keep up with the CAA now.

The last 5 years? Maybe. But the last 10 years? No. They played for the FCS National Championship in 2010, and I think they lost in the semis in 2007.

[DuckDuckGriz]

Portland State.

Really not a bad statement, but more relevant for the Big Sky than nationally.

At the early part of the 2000s, the Viks were a serious threat and ran an unstoppable pass attack. Guys like Jimmy Blanchard (whom I believe had the most consecutive games without an INT in NCAA history at the time), Terry Charles and Chip Dunn.

BUT Tim Walsh could never quite get you guys into a conference championship - probably because Montana was clicking on all cylinders too. Those were some classic matchups.

[JALMOND]

Really not a bad statement, but more relevant for the Big Sky than nationally.

At the early part of the 2000s, the Viks were a serious threat and ran an unstoppable pass attack. Guys like Jimmy Blanchard (whom I believe had the most consecutive games without an INT in NCAA history at the time), Terry Charles and Chip Dunn.

BUT Tim Walsh could never quite get you guys into a conference championship - probably because Montana was clicking on all cylinders too. Those were some classic matchups.

However, in order to be relevant nationally, you need to be relevant in your conference and Walsh had us there. Arguably, his best PSU team was his last PSU team in 2006, even better than the playoff team of 2000 in my opinion. And going back on topic, 2006 to now is the "last decade" and we have fallen from conference contender and nationally ranked, to irrelevant and in danger of cancelling the program (depending on who you talk to). You want the definition of "regression" that is it right there.

[superman7515]

The last 5 years? Maybe. But the last 10 years? No. They played for the FCS National Championship in 2010, and I think they lost in the semis in 2007.

Lost in the championship game in 2007 (AppState) also.

[SENOREIDA]

The last 5 years? Maybe. But the last 10 years? No. They played for the FCS National Championship in 2010, and I think they lost in the semis in 2007.
2007 they played for a national title as well. Originally from Wilmington so I follow them.

But out to go from being a powerhouse. To losing your coach and then your identity, regardless of time is pretty tough. I would still say Delaware.

[Catsfan90]

I'd say NDSU. They went from crushing everyone to losing a game last year. ;)

[PaladinFan]

Yes Elon has regressed, but a Furman squad that has lost 6 out of the last 7 meetings to the same old Phoenix tells a lot of both programs. Let's hope We both improve and will sometime meet in a play-off scenario.

Elon freaking had our number for years. Lot of close games, but even good Furman teams struggled to beat the Phoenix. There are some absolute head scratchers in there.

I understand Elon and Furman will have a home and home starting in 2017. So, the Phoenix will be back in Paladin Stadium soon enough.

[laxVik]

However, in order to be relevant nationally, you need to be relevant in your conference and Walsh had us there. Arguably, his best PSU team was his last PSU team in 2006, even better than the playoff team of 2000 in my opinion. And going back on topic, 2006 to now is the "last decade" and we have fallen from conference contender and nationally ranked, to irrelevant and in danger of cancelling the program (depending on who you talk to). You want the definition of "regression" that is it right there.
Yup and going from Walsh in 06 to three years of Glanville to now...wow. It's been mentioned before but dipping down to D2 is a good option imo.

[BEAR]

Speaking of regressed programs....I can't believe none of you repped me for this one!

I wasn't sure if McNeese qualified as regressed. Compared to their SLC success before UCA entered I understand but better competition means many programs in your conference get better too so now we have cycles of winners..and McNeese is just out of the winning cycle for now..but not for long.

[BisonBacker]

Northern Colorado and PSU both seem to me to fit the bill. Northern Colorado while never a serious contender in FCS prior to the move up had good teams in DII. But the move up for them has not been a friendly one for their W-L record. PSU has taken it on the chin over the last 7-8 years. Sure hope they can get it figured out.

[McNeese75]

I wasn't sure if McNeese qualified as regressed. Compared to their SLC success before UCA entered I understand but better competition means many programs in your conference get better too so now we have cycles of winners..and McNeese is just out of the winning cycle for now..but not for long.

But how will we ever get back in the winning cycle if we can't get the Bears back to Lake Charles? :D

[BEAR]

But how will we ever get back in the winning cycle if we can't get the Bears back to Lake Charles? :D

2016.

We have to go to McNeese, SAM, SELA, SFA and ACU.

It's going to be TOUGH. xbawlingx

[Houndawg]

Never thought about that factor PL. But you would think it would be a great area to draw recruits, esp when SIU is fully funded at 63 schollies.

I wonder how long Lennon has if he keeps up the mediocre years?



Edit: Maybe houndawg can answer this. What did Killl do that Lennon has not? Kill was successful so it can be done down there in Carbondale.

Better recruiter, better staff. Kill's secret weapon is his S&C coach who goes everywhere with him. Lennon has made some piss poor staff choices but a glimmer of hope exists in that former Saluki great Nick Hill has taken over recruiting so maybe in several years we'll be a contender again. This year we have a good chance of becoming the yotes first MVC win.xsmhx

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Better recruiter, better staff. Kill's secret weapon is his S&C coach who goes everywhere with him. Lennon has made some piss poor staff choices but a glimmer of hope exists in that former Saluki great Nick Hill has taken over recruiting so maybe in several years we'll be a contender again. This year we have a good chance of becoming the yotes first MVC win.xsmhx


It would be their 4th win. They are 3-21 in conference since joining.

I always think that SIU is going to bust out and become a top level team. Maybe they will this year.

SIU always plays the Bison tough.

No way they lose to USD.

[Houndawg]

It would be their 4th win. They are 3-21 in conference since joining.

I always think that SIU is going to bust out and become a top level team. Maybe they will this year.

SIU always plays the Bison tough.

No way they lose to USD.

Not this year - bottom three. Our starting left tackle just xfered to a D2 in Bum**** Egypt.

[dewey]

Not this year - bottom three. Our starting left tackle just xfered to a D2 in Bum**** Egypt.

What did he transfer?

Dewey

[Houndawg]

What did he transfer?

Dewey

Himself.

[dewey]

Himself.

Sorry. Lack of proof reading by me. What was his reason for transferring.

Dewey

[veinup]

Portland State.

They did used to be really fun (or nerve-wracking depending on whose side you were on) to watch. Weird to see them fall off so hard. Plan to drive down there for a game this year, I wonder if me and my friend will be the only people in the stands..

[underdawg]

Sorry. Lack of proof reading by me. What was his reason for transferring.

Dewey

Apparently the guy blew off several weight lifting and other conditioning sessions and was constantly late for meetings--Lennon just told him to get lost---he was pretty good---SIU got a OG (6-4 290) transfer from Iowa last week too stem the bleeding a bit but we still need more--most of the OL (ie guys like 6-6 306 Ethan Wirth and 6-4 320 Jake Notario) are studs but our weakness will be lack of depth.

[laxVik]

They did used to be really fun (or nerve-wracking depending on whose side you were on) to watch. Weird to see them fall off so hard. Plan to drive down there for a game this year, I wonder if me and my friend will be the only people in the stands..I'm old. Old enough to remember the Lomax and Mouse Davis days. Not to mention some great years afterwards. But the last 10 years have been nothing short of sad. No support. Dwindling fan base. I don't see the point in trying to keep this ship sailing at this level. I think a step down would be in order.

[Grizalltheway]

They did used to be really fun (or nerve-wracking depending on whose side you were on) to watch. Weird to see them fall off so hard. Plan to drive down there for a game this year, I wonder if me and my friend will be the only people in the stands..

Myself and a few others will most likely be there. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we outnumber their fans 2 or 3 to 1.

[DuckDuckGriz]

Myself and a few others will most likely be there. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we outnumber their fans 2 or 3 to 1.

That's usually the case - Griz fans take over the entire west side of the stadium and some of the north (i.e. Timbers Army) section. But it's a ton of fun.

Halloween game this year!

[DFW HOYA]

While it's not football, a candidate for the biggest dropoff of a basketball team in the decade. Remember this team (9-22 in 2015)?

http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics33/800/RN/RNMWMPYWSQRVIPL.20150724172643.jpg

[Grizalltheway]

That's usually the case - Griz fans take over the entire west side of the stadium and some of the north (i.e. Timbers Army) section. But it's a ton of fun.

Halloween game this year!

Have we played them in Portland since the place was renovated?

[JALMOND]

Have we played them in Portland since the place was renovated?

Last time Montana played here, the game was in Hillsboro due to the stadium being renovated. So, no, its been 5 years (?) since they've played at the former Civic Stadium.

[veinup]

Last time Montana played here, the game was in Hillsboro due to the stadium being renovated. So, no, its been 5 years (?) since they've played at the former Civic Stadium.

very cool, didn't know that. looking forward to making the trip!

[CHIP72]

George Mason's 2006 Final Four run was really a fluke to be honest, though the Patriots were one of the stronger programs in the CAA for a few years (and in particular were very good in 2007-2008 season). Then towards the end of their time in the CAA they became a middle of the pack team, and the CAA itself suffered some severe defections (particularly Virginia Commonwealth and Old Dominion) that turned the conference from a high-end mid-major to medium to low-end mid-major. (I'll note that when I use the term "mid-major", I don't include all non-major conferences in that grouping; some non-major conferences, such as the MEAC, America East Conference, and Northeast Conference, are truly low major conferences. The CAA is still above those conferences but not dramatically so.) Now George Mason has moved to the Atlantic 10, a distinctly better conference than the old CAA (the A-10 has long been what I like to call a "semi-major" conference, above the mid-majors but below the true majors), and they became a bottom feeder their first couple of years in the conference.

Their fall hasn't been quite as precipitous when viewed with the context that their 2006 Final Four run was a fluke, but I agree they have fallen significantly.

[JALMOND]

very cool, didn't know that. looking forward to making the trip!

I'm interested to see what Griz fans think of the new stadium. The Timbers think it is a top flight soccer stadium and comparing it to what I see from watching the NC game at Frisco the last couple years, I tend to think it is at least on par with that one. It is truly a great soccer/football stadium. Now if we can only get butts in the seats.

[Ivytalk]

I'm not sure any Ivy team has "regressed" over the past decade. Penn has had a couple of bad seasons, but it won the Ivy title in '09, '10 and '12. Generally, the NY schools have stayed bad. Cornell hasn't even shared an Ivy title since '90. Dartmouth and Princeton have improved recently, while Brown has been up and down.

[melloware13]

While it's not football, a candidate for the biggest dropoff of a basketball team in the decade. Remember this team (9-22 in 2015)?

http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics33/800/RN/RNMWMPYWSQRVIPL.20150724172643.jpg

I think Delaware won the last 3 CAA meetings against George Mason (when we were regulars in the opening round of the CAA tournament)

[Mr. C]

I'll go with Hampton. They were consistently ranked in the Top a decade ago and were the best HBCU nearly every year. Now they're a mess.

Furman, Penn, Western Illinois and McNeese State also come to mind.
Penn??? The Quakers won an Ivy League ring in 2012. Now Western Illinois shot itself in the foot when it fired Don Patterson as head coach … Bad Karma up there in Macomb. McNeese State is still in the thick of things in the Southland most years, the Cowboys just haven't been their normal top-10, top-15 in the country of late, but that could quickly change. Furman went through a slide, but is just one season removed from the playoffs and should be improved this season if the Paladins stay healthy.

Hampton is indeed a mess. That's what happens when you have poor athletic department and administrative support.

[Mr. C]

App State and Georgia Southern...

You can't get much more regressed than stepping down to the Sun Belt.

But, if you're talking about teams that haven't opted to find easier competition, I'd have to go with McNeese, Delawara and YSU, in no particular order...

I was tempted to mention our dearly departed friends. Also enjoyed the Hofstra and Northeastern reference.

[uni88]

Penn??? The Quakers won an Ivy League ring in 2012. Now Western Illinois shot itself in the foot when it fired Don Patterson as head coach … Bad Karma up there in Macomb. McNeese State is still in the thick of things in the Southland most years, the Cowboys just haven't been their normal top-10, top-15 in the country of late, but that could quickly change. Furman went through a slide, but is just one season removed from the playoffs and should be improved this season if the Paladins stay healthy.

Hampton is indeed a mess. That's what happens when you have poor athletic department and administrative support.
I thought Patterson resigned for health reasons.

[GoAgs72]

Got to be Delaware.

[clenz]

I thought Patterson resigned for health reasons.
He did

[Kabooom]

Might be Delaware. Sad but true. Getting fired and landing at Sam Houston could prove to be a good thing for KC Keeler's career.

I'm not sure you can say Montana and Furman are there yet...there is a difference between having a slump (i.e. Furman in the early to mid 90s) and actually regressing as a program.

I still feel like it's only a matter of time before the Griz get a coach that would be in the top 10 of the FCS and they will be hell on wheels.

....Chime in the Name of New Grizzly Coach Bob Stitt.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Stitt. Hell on Wheels is still in the shop being outfitted. Stay Tuned!

[Mr. C]

He did
No, he didn't. He was forced out. I wrote about it in January, 2010 for The Sports Network after interviewing Patterson (who I still keep in contact with). He received a nice settlement from Western Illinois after suing the university for wrongful termination after successfully fighting cancer.

[GannonFan]

Without a doubt it's Delaware, and it's not even close. Forget the on the field for a moment, the biggest issue at UD is that the fan support for the program was cut off by the administration and it's never coming back. Jacking up prices in 2008 with an ill-conceived and badly implemented mandatory donation program pushed away fans that had been there for decades and had multiple generations of fans. Look at the run in 2010 - UD had an all-time great team, and despite that still had one of the lowest playoff crowds in history for the UNH quarterfinal game - announced only 9k for that game. Whereas the program once had more consecutive seasons with 20k+ fans than even Montana, now we average about 15k per game and that number is greatly inflated. Tailgating lots sit mostly empty, there's no buzz inside the stadium with all the empty seats, and attendance plummets year after year even as they try to fix the mistakes they made implementing the athletic fund program. The problem is, the old time fans had introduced their kids and their grandkids and great grandkids to Delaware football and that's why everyone kept coming back. When they pissed off the longtime fans, they cut off that source of new fans. And in this day and age, there isn't an untapped source of FCS fans so there's no way to replenish the ranks. UD is still struggling on the field, and part of that is stubborness from the new coach to do everything the opposite of what KC did (we now abhor transfers for instance), but the biggest issue is that UD, who once averaged close to 22k per game for the season, will likely never see average crowds over 15k again. The program isn't dying, it's dead.

[superman7515]

Enough sugar-coating it GF, what do you really think?

[AshevilleApp2]

Most repressed program? I'd say Liberty.

[Sitting Bull]

Without a doubt it's Delaware, and it's not even close. Forget the on the field for a moment, the biggest issue at UD is that the fan support for the program was cut off by the administration and it's never coming back. Jacking up prices in 2008 with an ill-conceived and badly implemented mandatory donation program pushed away fans that had been there for decades and had multiple generations of fans. Look at the run in 2010 - UD had an all-time great team, and despite that still had one of the lowest playoff crowds in history for the UNH quarterfinal game - announced only 9k for that game. Whereas the program once had more consecutive seasons with 20k+ fans than even Montana, now we average about 15k per game and that number is greatly inflated. Tailgating lots sit mostly empty, there's no buzz inside the stadium with all the empty seats, and attendance plummets year after year even as they try to fix the mistakes they made implementing the athletic fund program. The problem is, the old time fans had introduced their kids and their grandkids and great grandkids to Delaware football and that's why everyone kept coming back. When they pissed off the longtime fans, they cut off that source of new fans. And in this day and age, there isn't an untapped source of FCS fans so there's no way to replenish the ranks. UD is still struggling on the field, and part of that is stubborness from the new coach to do everything the opposite of what KC did (we now abhor transfers for instance), but the biggest issue is that UD, who once averaged close to 22k per game for the season, will likely never see average crowds over 15k again. The program isn't dying, it's dead.

Delaware built a huge fan base during the Tubby Raymond era in the 70s and 80s, a time when UD would gleefully run up the score on their opponents. I believe one game against Princeton, they pasted something like an 80-0 beat down.

They don't win like that anymore and the last few years, they have been mid-pack in the CAA. So, yes, some fans will drop off, realizing they aren't going to go undefeated each year and smear everyone.

I don't feel a bit sorry for them.

However, I have a feeling they will be back.

I would include UD with Furman and YSU among the most regressed list.

[Daytripper]

Most repressed program? I'd say Liberty.

xthumbsupx

[AshevilleApp2]

xthumbsupx

Thanks. Shouldn't have bolded it, but couldn't resist.

[YoUDeeMan]

Delaware built a huge fan base during the Tubby Raymond era in the 70s and 80s, a time when UD would gleefully run up the score on their opponents. I believe one game against Princeton, they pasted something like an 80-0 beat down.

They don't win like that anymore and the last few years, they have been mid-pack in the CAA. So, yes, some fans will drop off, realizing they aren't going to go undefeated each year and smear everyone.

I don't feel a bit sorry for them.

However, I have a feeling they will be back.

I would include UD with Furman and YSU among the most regressed list.

Sure, we had a lot of fans under Tubby...more fans than most stadiums. But UD's consecutive 20K game stretch included far more KC years than Tubby years. Here is the attendance for 1997:

1997(12-2, 7-1 Atlantic 10, 2nd Mid-Atlantic Division)Head Coach: Harold R. “Tubby” RaymondCaptain: Dorrell Green 9/6/97 New Hampshire 27-10 4,4659/13/97 Villanova 25-35 18,5659/20/97 West Chester 28-7 14,2039/27/97 Northeastern 38-14 4,10010/4/97 Boston University 49-17 2,02310/11/97 Richmond 24-7 14,32410/18/97 James Madison 49-27 12,00010/25/97 Massachusetts 40-9 5,31711/1/97 William & Mary 14-0 18,70711/8/97 Connecticut 37-29 20,78811/15/97 Lehigh 24-19 7,12211/29/97 Hofstra 24-14 14,075 (I-AA 1st Round) 12/6/97 Georgia Southern 16-7 11,203 (I-AA Quarterfinal)12/13/97 McNeese State 21-23 14,461

14K for 3 home games...during a winning season. Not shabby, but not what we had until UD's AD decided to screw the pooch.

UD's consecutive run with 20K+ fans only included a few of Tubby's years, and it included KC's first 7 years, including UD record highest season ticket sales in 2008. But then, UD stepped in with their ridiculously implemented parking and ticket pricing fiasco...and the ignorant way in which they launched the programs.

Attendance quickly dropped off, as Gannonfan noted, due to people fleeing UD's arrogance, not due to the quality of football in general.

FWIW, KC always called off the dogs.

As to actual football, whether UD will be back to being a top FCS football team is still in question. We can hope, but the coaching decisions have been quite suspect recently.

[Daytripper]

Sure, we had a lot of fans under Tubby...more fans than most stadiums. But UD's consecutive 20K game stretch included far more KC years than Tubby years. Here is the attendance for 1997:

1997(12-2, 7-1 Atlantic 10, 2nd Mid-Atlantic Division)Head Coach: Harold R. “Tubby” RaymondCaptain: Dorrell Green 9/6/97 New Hampshire 27-10 4,4659/13/97 Villanova 25-35 18,5659/20/97 West Chester 28-7 14,2039/27/97 Northeastern 38-14 4,10010/4/97 Boston University 49-17 2,02310/11/97 Richmond 24-7 14,32410/18/97 James Madison 49-27 12,00010/25/97 Massachusetts 40-9 5,31711/1/97 William & Mary 14-0 18,70711/8/97 Connecticut 37-29 20,78811/15/97 Lehigh 24-19 7,12211/29/97 Hofstra 24-14 14,075 (I-AA 1st Round) 12/6/97 Georgia Southern 16-7 11,203 (I-AA Quarterfinal)12/13/97McNeese State 21-23 14,461

14K for 3 home games...during a winning season. Not shabby, but not what we had until UD's AD decided to screw the pooch.

UD's consecutive run with 20K+ fans only included a few of Tubby's years, and it included KC's first 7 years, including UD record highest season ticket sales in 2008. But then, UD stepped in with their ridiculously implemented parking and ticket pricing fiasco...and the ignorant way in which they launched the programs.

Attendance quickly dropped off, as Gannonfan noted, due to people fleeing UD's arrogance, not due to the quality of football in general.

FWIW, KC always called off the dogs.

As to actual football, whether UD will be back to being a top FCS football team is still in question. We can hope, but the coaching decisions have been quite suspect recently.


As a fan, who do you lay the most blame with: the AD or the President at the time?

[clenz]

Still not able to report, Ursus

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Still not able to report, Ursus

Yeah, sometimes can and sometimes can't. You ain't the only one. Just gotta ride with what we got right now I'm afraid. I did get one reported and one email so you guys are on it!

Thanks clenzy.

[OL FU]

I would include UD with Furman and YSU among the most regressed list.

Well I guess we are in good companyxbawlingx

[GannonFan]

Delaware built a huge fan base during the Tubby Raymond era in the 70s and 80s, a time when UD would gleefully run up the score on their opponents. I believe one game against Princeton, they pasted something like an 80-0 beat down.

They don't win like that anymore and the last few years, they have been mid-pack in the CAA. So, yes, some fans will drop off, realizing they aren't going to go undefeated each year and smear everyone.

I don't feel a bit sorry for them.

However, I have a feeling they will be back.

I would include UD with Furman and YSU among the most regressed list.

Please, that's just utter nonsense. Heck, if you noticed, UD attendance waned in the late 80's and early 90's before (as Cluck points out) picking up steam at the tail end of the 90's and into KC's regime. To say that the program was based on running up the score in a couple of games in the 70's is just utter nonsense.

And that's also nonsense when you say they will be back. Of course UD will win again and will likely be a national contender in a couple of years - they are still Delaware and play in the CAA and spend a fair amount on football. They will win. But the bigger problem is the declining fanbase and there's nothing to do to salvage that now. They did fix some of the problems (they finally relented and had portions of the season ticket base not require mandatory donations, for instance, and they've greatly improved the gameday atmosphere) but the bigger problem is that you can't sell FCS football in this day and age. What they sold before was tradition and generational experiences (grandparents who were 30-40 year season ticket holders would often be surrounded by children, grandchildren, and even great grandchildren who all became Hens fans). Those groups were run off by the administration (everyone shares equal blame from the AD to the President) and the problem is they are never coming back. Couple that with a product that doesn't excite the average fan, and you have what UD has - a season ticket holder base that has declined about 50% in the past 7 years (from a high of 11k per year) and an attendance that is down about 30% and still declining. It's not going to get better, even if UD starts winning again. People started leaving in droves during a period when UD was in two national title games in the span of four years - winning can't cure this because people weren't leaving because of the product on the field.

[CasualFan]

Going back and reading some of the UD history has been pretty interesting. Glad you guys brought it up.

Yes, we fans are fickle, and will respond to the slightest administration screw up. Coastal fans were ready to run Joe Moglia out of town before he even talked to a player 3 years ago. A lot of folks cancelled their season tickets. I don't think anyone would question that it was a brilliant (if risky) decision to drop the popular coach Bennett and bring Moglia in. Winning fixes a lot of problems, and all is forgiven now.

[Sitting Bull]

Please, that's just utter nonsense. Heck, if you noticed, UD attendance waned in the late 80's and early 90's before (as Cluck points out) picking up steam at the tail end of the 90's and into KC's regime. To say that the program was based on running up the score in a couple of games in the 70's is just utter nonsense.

And that's also nonsense when you say they will be back. Of course UD will win again and will likely be a national contender in a couple of years - they are still Delaware and play in the CAA and spend a fair amount on football. They will win. But the bigger problem is the declining fanbase and there's nothing to do to salvage that

I never said they strictly built the program on lopsided scores - it was winning that established the strong fan base. The fact that Tubby did run up some scores - which he had a reputation for and to deny that is utter nonsense - was a side story. Tubby created the glory days of UD football and you're right, that may never come back in the fashion he built, consistent winning.

I'm not arguing about the current administration - that could all be true - I just don't think you can dismiss the kind of program Tubby Raymond built and maintained - and then declare utter nonsense that it's end has had no impact on the casual football fan in Delaware.

Delaware to me is still a strong program and will be among the top FCS programs in the near future. If their dark years are finishing mid pack in the CAA, that's not the end of the world. The fan base though was spoiled with a run of incredible success. Nothing lasts forever.

I don't know much about KC - he did have some very good seasons though I never thought of his teams in the same dominating fashion as Tubby's.

The stadium is rightfully pegged "The Tub" for a reason. His impact was huge and it will be tough to get back to that level of domination.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

George Mason's 2006 Final Four run was really a fluke to be honest, though the Patriots were one of the stronger programs in the CAA for a few years (and in particular were very good in 2007-2008 season). Then towards the end of their time in the CAA they became a middle of the pack team, and the CAA itself suffered some severe defections (particularly Virginia Commonwealth and Old Dominion) that turned the conference from a high-end mid-major to medium to low-end mid-major. (I'll note that when I use the term "mid-major", I don't include all non-major conferences in that grouping; some non-major conferences, such as the MEAC, America East Conference, and Northeast Conference, are truly low major conferences. The CAA is still above those conferences but not dramatically so.) Now George Mason has moved to the Atlantic 10, a distinctly better conference than the old CAA (the A-10 has long been what I like to call a "semi-major" conference, above the mid-majors but below the true majors), and they became a bottom feeder their first couple of years in the conference.

Their fall hasn't been quite as precipitous when viewed with the context that their 2006 Final Four run was a fluke, but I agree they have fallen significantly.

Eh... this is not the full context either. You HAVE to look at the departure of Jim Larranaga as the biggest factor. The fact that VCU a couple years later went on a run to the Final Four from the First Four (i.e., play-in game vs. USC) would counter the point of it being a "fluke". The CAA has in basketball been historically strong with upsets galore across the past 30+ years of NCAA tourney play. Richmond's 15 seed over 2 seed Syracuse comes to mind from back in 1991. JMU nearly beat Michael Jordan's UNC team that won the title when he was a freshman in round 2 of the tourney that year. Mason's hiring of Paul Hewitt was the laughing stock of the region. We Dukes' fans know all too well what bad hires will do to a basketball program. We have never recovered after Lefty's departure. Larranaga on the other hand has led Miami to a Sweet 16, a 1st place finish in the ACC a couple years ago, and last year a deep fun as the runner-up in the Men's NIT with the Canes. More than a Fluke 06-07 was a perfect storm for Mason - getting the regional in DC (home court advantage), having the right personnel peak at the right time, strongest year of CAA basketball ever to prepare them in conference for the Tourney (the Patriots were one of two at-large bids from the CAA that year). The A10 is not really that good either. Marginally better than what the CAA was when it had ODU, VCU and Mason. Anyway, I personally look at it differently, but the net result is the same: HUGE REGRESSION for Mason.

[GannonFan]

I never said they strictly built the program on lopsided scores - it was winning that established the strong fan base. The fact that Tubby did run up some scores - which he had a reputation for and to deny that is utter nonsense - was a side story. Tubby created the glory days of UD football and you're right, that may never come back in the fashion he built, consistent winning.

I'm not arguing about the current administration - that could all be true - I just don't think you can dismiss the kind of program Tubby Raymond built and maintained - and then declare utter nonsense that it's end has had no impact on the casual football fan in Delaware.

Delaware to me is still a strong program and will be among the top FCS programs in the near future. If their dark years are finishing mid pack in the CAA, that's not the end of the world. The fan base though was spoiled with a run of incredible success. Nothing lasts forever.

I don't know much about KC - he did have some very good seasons though I never thought of his teams in the same dominating fashion as Tubby's.

The stadium is rightfully pegged "The Tub" for a reason. His impact was huge and it will be tough to get back to that level of domination.

Well, the only thing you brought up was running up the score, so what else did I have to go on?

Sure Tubby ran up the scores on some teams, but that had little to nothing to do with fans flocking to Newark. Heck, who wants to turn out to see a thumping of the Merchant Marines? They came out for many reasons in the 70's - great teams (UD did win three national titles in the '70's), it was a local product (many of the fans then were not graduates, but local Delaware folks), and it was a great atmosphere (tons of tailgating and a great stadium). And UD played two DI teams at the time, every other year in Newark (nova and the biggest rival, Temple). And it didn't hurt that in the 70's there was no internet and college football games on television were limited to 2 to 3 games in total on a Saturday.

But the demise of the football program, as measured by the fanbase, can be directly atttributable to the terrible rollout of the mandatory donation program in 2008, along with several other misfires by the administration at the same time (restrictions on tailgating, revising of the parking lots, restrictions on in-stadium items). But the biggest blow was jacking up the prices (in some cases by 30%-40%) and telling 40 year season ticket holders that they were not, nor ever had, contributing to the program (per the AD at the time, Edgar Johnson). UD realized they had screwed up in the years since and have rolled back many of the changes, but the damage was done. Attendance increased steadily following Tubby's retirement in 2001, and would continue to rise until the disastrous 2008 policy implementations, and the clumsiness in which it was done. And attendance has plummetted ever since, even when the team was succeeding on the field (re: 2010 national finalists). What was happening on the field, and the coach in charge of the team, was never a significant factor in losing the fanbase (as can be seen by firing KC and adding Brock doing nothing to reverse the trend in attendance) - people left because UD football was a tremendous gameday experience that got lost in the pursuit of squeezing every last ounce of revenue out of it. Now it's just a shadow of what it was and gameday's in Newark are barely above the ho-hum level as the amount of empty seats grows each year. I've been going to games for 42 years and it's never been this bad and that's a shame. What used to be a family tradition for most is ending, as I'm sure my kids won't be making treks to Newark with their families in the future. They killed the golden goose by trying to get too many eggs out it.

[jmufan999]

yikes, I was going to say Delaware and immediately duck. but I'm not the only one who feels that way, apparently.

for me, though, it's not due to lack of talent. not at all. it's that (by admission of many UD fans) evidently their fan support has really gone downhill. they still get very good players and JMU has lost 3 straight to the Hens. there is no shortage of talent.

[Go...gate]

Without a doubt it's Delaware, and it's not even close. Forget the on the field for a moment, the biggest issue at UD is that the fan support for the program was cut off by the administration and it's never coming back. Jacking up prices in 2008 with an ill-conceived and badly implemented mandatory donation program pushed away fans that had been there for decades and had multiple generations of fans. Look at the run in 2010 - UD had an all-time great team, and despite that still had one of the lowest playoff crowds in history for the UNH quarterfinal game - announced only 9k for that game. Whereas the program once had more consecutive seasons with 20k+ fans than even Montana, now we average about 15k per game and that number is greatly inflated. Tailgating lots sit mostly empty, there's no buzz inside the stadium with all the empty seats, and attendance plummets year after year even as they try to fix the mistakes they made implementing the athletic fund program. The problem is, the old time fans had introduced their kids and their grandkids and great grandkids to Delaware football and that's why everyone kept coming back. When they pissed off the longtime fans, they cut off that source of new fans. And in this day and age, there isn't an untapped source of FCS fans so there's no way to replenish the ranks. UD is still struggling on the field, and part of that is stubborness from the new coach to do everything the opposite of what KC did (we now abhor transfers for instance), but the biggest issue is that UD, who once averaged close to 22k per game for the season, will likely never see average crowds over 15k again. The program isn't dying, it's dead.

What was UD's mandatory donation program? That sounds like a turn-off, especially in light of the economic problems so many have faced in recent years.

[Roamingriz]

OK, I've been reading this forum for about 8 years now year round and have finally decided to join the fray, but I want to say that fan base is the best litmus test for the regression of a program. Its great and all to pat yourselves on the back but if a team of footballplayers and their coach pat themselves on the back in the forest does it make a sound?

[BisonFan02]

OK, I've been reading this forum for about 8 years now year round and have finally decided to join the fray, but I want to say that fan base is the best litmus test for the regression of a program. Its great and all to pat yourselves on the back but if a team of footballplayers and their coach pat themselves on the back in the forest does it make a sound?

yes

[bluehenbillk]

What was UD's mandatory donation program? That sounds like a turn-off, especially in light of the economic problems so many have faced in recent years.

It's called the UDAF - a program that when rolled out had I don't know 75% of the stadium paying a mandatory donation per seat & a donation to park anywhere near the Tub. For those with decent seats it equated to an extra $12-13 per game. I personally didn't think it was crazy but it started a fallout I'll go into below.

It wasn't really that bad, it was overdue actually. But the problem was two-pronged: 1) The timing - they did it as the economy began to tank & many people were hesitant to throw more $$ at sporting events and 2) the rollout was horrendous. Most schools would partner such a move with stadium additions/improvements or with an announcement of a new league or moving up to FBS. The way UD positioned it was it would do nothing to specifically help the football program but to help fund scholarships for all of UD's 21-23 sports however many they had at the time. I went to the town halls they ran & the AD at the time who is now Stanford's AD (Muir) showed slides of mens & womens hoops and volleyball & you name it - pretty much everything but football.

What's happened since?

UD peaked in season tickets at like 11,200 seasons which I think was in 2008 (don't hold me to it - going off memory). Last year they had about 6,600 seasons & the thinking is it'll most likely be less for 2015. Do the math. That's 41% of the fan base has left & GF is correct - they aren't coming back.

The play on the field has been spotty since 1998 to be honest. Yes UD has been in 3 NC's since then, winning one (should've been 2), but they've had 5 good teams in the last 16 years. That averages to every 3rd year. The last 4 seasons have been no playoffs - longest stretch in my lifetime & odds are heavily stacked towards a 5th year this year.

Optimism in Newark? Lacking currently.

[DFW HOYA]

The way UD positioned it was it would do nothing to specifically help the football program but to help fund scholarships for all of UD's 21-23 sports however many they had at the time. I went to the town halls they ran & the AD at the time who is now Stanford's AD (Muir) showed slides of mens & womens hoops and volleyball & you name it - pretty much everything but football.

What's happened since?

UD peaked in season tickets at like 11,200 seasons which I think was in 2008 (don't hold me to it - going off memory). Last year they had about 6,600 seasons & the thinking is it'll most likely be less for 2015. Do the math. That's 41% of the fan base has left & GF is correct - they aren't coming back..

Sounds like some parallels to Muir's tenure at Georgetown. Muir went to a donation-heavy approach in basketball and attendance peaked at 12,955 per game in 2008 and has dropped by 25 percent since. He promised changes for football after dropping Bob Benson for Kevin Kelly but that stalled out soon thereafter, he made no progress on the facilities issue, and surprised a lot of people by leaving Washington for Newark.

Make no mistake--Bernard Muir is a impressive AD who can make the case with senior leadership of any university. Whether his efforts at Stanford begin to struggle in years 4-5 as it did at Georgetown and Delaware remains to be seen.

[superman7515]

It wasn't really that bad, it was overdue actually. But the problem was two-pronged: 1) The timing - they did it as the economy began to tank & many people were hesitant to throw more $$ at sporting events and 2) the rollout was horrendous. Most schools would partner such a move with stadium additions/improvements or with an announcement of a new league or moving up to FBS. The way UD positioned it was it would do nothing to specifically help the football program but to help fund scholarships for all of UD's 21-23 sports however many they had at the time. I went to the town halls they ran & the AD at the time who is now Stanford's AD (Muir) showed slides of mens & womens hoops and volleyball & you name it - pretty much everything but football.

I'll add a third prong... The athletic department insulted a hell of a lot of fans when they told them, yeah, you've been buying season tickets for two, three, even four decades... But you've never contributed anything to the university or football team by doing it, it's finally time to start paying your share with these mandatory "donations." I haven't been going to UD games for forty years, but I don't care what business you're in, telling someone who has been buying your product since The Beatles were still together that they haven't done anything for you and having the petulant "what about me" attitude that they rolled it out with is a good way to lose a lot of people... And they did.

[bluehenbillk]

I'll add a third prong... The athletic department insulted a hell of a lot of fans when they told them, yeah, you've been buying season tickets for two, three, even four decades... But you've never contributed anything to the university or football team by doing it, it's finally time to start paying your share with these mandatory "donations." I haven't been going to UD games for forty years, but I don't care what business you're in, telling someone who has been buying your product since The Beatles were still together that they haven't done anything for you and having the petulant "what about me" attitude that they rolled it out with is a good way to lose a lot of people... And they did.

Agreed that their public relations & customer service efforts thrown at the roll out were severely lacking & alienated some people just as you outlined.

[KPSUL]

Agreed that their public relations & customer service efforts thrown at the roll out were severely lacking & alienated some people just as you outlined.

I definitately see where you guys are coming from here. UNH does not link the quality of season tickets to donating to our "Cat" Club. That may change with the new stadium, but as of now, all they've announced is that this years season ticket holders will have priority next season on the new home side of Cowell. Because I live 500 miles from UNH and only go to two home games a season, I don't get season tickets. Instead I donate to the cat club, so personally am not thrilled about the policy. I could have bought a lot of of season tickets for what I donate, but I didn't do it because I didn't want to leave 50 yard line seats empty for 3 games year.

[BEAR]

Most depressed program: Nicholls State

[Hood]

Most depressed program: Nicholls Stateseriously.

Conference champs in 2005.
0-12 in 2014.

[BEAR]

seriously.

Conference champs in 2005.
0-12 in 2014.

Sadly UCA came into the conference in 2006 so all I've seen is the slide Nicholls has been on. Get back to work Nicholls!

[caribbeanhen]

yikes, I was going to say Delaware and immediately duck. but I'm not the only one who feels that way, apparently.

for me, though, it's not due to lack of talent. not at all. it's that (by admission of many UD fans) evidently their fan support has really gone downhill. they still get very good players and JMU has lost 3 straight to the Hens. there is no shortage of talent.

I think most Hen fans would disagree with that, sure we've had some talented players but not nearly enough and have been very thin in spots..

[uni88]

Well, the only thing you brought up was running up the score, so what else did I have to go on?

Sure Tubby ran up the scores on some teams, but that had little to nothing to do with fans flocking to Newark. Heck, who wants to turn out to see a thumping of the Merchant Marines? They came out for many reasons in the 70's - great teams (UD did win three national titles in the '70's), it was a local product (many of the fans then were not graduates, but local Delaware folks), and it was a great atmosphere (tons of tailgating and a great stadium). And UD played two DI teams at the time, every other year in Newark (nova and the biggest rival, Temple). And it didn't hurt that in the 70's there was no internet and college football games on television were limited to 2 to 3 games in total on a Saturday.

But the demise of the football program, as measured by the fanbase, can be directly atttributable to the terrible rollout of the mandatory donation program in 2008, along with several other misfires by the administration at the same time (restrictions on tailgating, revising of the parking lots, restrictions on in-stadium items). But the biggest blow was jacking up the prices (in some cases by 30%-40%) and telling 40 year season ticket holders that they were not, nor ever had, contributing to the program (per the AD at the time, Edgar Johnson). UD realized they had screwed up in the years since and have rolled back many of the changes, but the damage was done. Attendance increased steadily following Tubby's retirement in 2001, and would continue to rise until the disastrous 2008 policy implementations, and the clumsiness in which it was done. And attendance has plummetted ever since, even when the team was succeeding on the field (re: 2010 national finalists). What was happening on the field, and the coach in charge of the team, was never a significant factor in losing the fanbase (as can be seen by firing KC and adding Brock doing nothing to reverse the trend in attendance) - people left because UD football was a tremendous gameday experience that got lost in the pursuit of squeezing every last ounce of revenue out of it. Now it's just a shadow of what it was and gameday's in Newark are barely above the ho-hum level as the amount of empty seats grows each year. I've been going to games for 42 years and it's never been this bad and that's a shame. What used to be a family tradition for most is ending, as I'm sure my kids won't be making treks to Newark with their families in the future. They killed the golden goose by trying to get too many eggs out it.
Thanks for the info GF and other Hen fans. Helps me understand what happened.

I do think that it is possible to get many of those fans to come back and to rebuild that atmosphere but it will take a President and AD with Kahunas to do it. They need to get the football program back on a winning track and they to reach out to all of there long-time current and former season ticket holders and apologize and make them an offer that will get them back into the stadium for a season - discounted or even free season tickets or something similar. The cost will be tremendous but the potential upside of refilling the stadium from year to year is also tremendous. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Delaware also has the advantage of being the flagship college football program in the state, similar to Montana and NDSU. They need to leverage that to headline the news, put butts in the seats, and rebuild that atmosphere.

[Da Coach]

I'll go with Hampton. They were consistently ranked in the Top a decade ago and were the best HBCU nearly every year. Now they're a mess. Furman, Penn, Western Illinois and McNeese State also come to mind. Don Patterson ran the WIU program into the ground. Watch for a return to prominence this year. Beware the Leathernecks!

[CHIP72]

Eh... this is not the full context either. You HAVE to look at the departure of Jim Larranaga as the biggest factor. The fact that VCU a couple years later went on a run to the Final Four from the First Four (i.e., play-in game vs. USC) would counter the point of it being a "fluke". The CAA has in basketball been historically strong with upsets galore across the past 30+ years of NCAA tourney play. Richmond's 15 seed over 2 seed Syracuse comes to mind from back in 1991. JMU nearly beat Michael Jordan's UNC team that won the title when he was a freshman in round 2 of the tourney that year. Mason's hiring of Paul Hewitt was the laughing stock of the region. We Dukes' fans know all too well what bad hires will do to a basketball program. We have never recovered after Lefty's departure. Larranaga on the other hand has led Miami to a Sweet 16, a 1st place finish in the ACC a couple years ago, and last year a deep fun as the runner-up in the Men's NIT with the Canes. More than a Fluke 06-07 was a perfect storm for Mason - getting the regional in DC (home court advantage), having the right personnel peak at the right time, strongest year of CAA basketball ever to prepare them in conference for the Tourney (the Patriots were one of two at-large bids from the CAA that year). The A10 is not really that good either. Marginally better than what the CAA was when it had ODU, VCU and Mason. Anyway, I personally look at it differently, but the net result is the same: HUGE REGRESSION for Mason.

VCU's 2011 Final Four run was a less of a fluke than GMU's because VCU followed it up with some additional strong seasons, but it also was still largely a fluke. I mean, a team that barely makes the NCAA Tournament to begin with (and wouldn't have made it had the field not expanded beyond 64 teams) and then turns around and makes a deep NCAA Tournament run is, pretty much by definition, overachieving. Throughout the early 2000s to 2013 period the CAA was usually a NCAA Tournament one-bid league, and more often than not the team that made the NCAAs lost in the round of 64 (albeit after giving their high major foe a real scare in most seasons). Additionally, VCU was the only CAA team that preceded or followed up a deep NCAA Tournament run with additional NCAA Tournament bids (and usually made the NCAA Tournament over a 4-5 year period).

As for the A-10 vs CAA comparison, it is a rare season when the A-10 doesn't put multiple teams in the NCAA Tournament. Going back to at least the early 1990s, it was the norm for the A-10 to have 2-3 participants in the NCAA Tournament, and the league would put in 4-5 teams in its very good seasons. There were a small number of seasons when the A-10 was down and had only one NCAA Tournament participant (2006 comes to mind), but those seasons didn't happen often, unlike the case of the CAA, Horizon League, the MAC, and Missouri Valley Conference (the four best mid-major conferences over the last 20 years; I'd say the MVC was by a small margin probably the best of those conferences in the last 10-15 years). It also wasn't too uncommon for the A-10 to put a team in the Sweet 16; without looking it up I'd say the A-10 accomplished that feat about 30-40% of the time over the last 25 years. Just because the CAA made a couple fluke Final Four runs doesn't mean it was or is a better conference than the A-10; you need to look at the entire body of work of all the teams in both conferences over the 20-25 year period I'm talking about.

Finally, I do agree about Jim Laranaga; his success at both GMU and Miami and Paul Hewitt's lack of success at GMU after being reasonably successful at Georgia Tech (most notably making the NCAA Championship Game in 2004) prove how good Laranaga is. He did a hell of a job at George Mason turning that program into a perennial CAA heavyweight and one of the better mid-major programs in the country. It is pretty obvious the school in Fairfax, VA really misses him.

[heath]

xeyebrowxguys,FWIW....................there is no fcs basketball................slow time? Get a life and get ready for FOOTBALL campxnodx

[clenz]

VCU's 2011 Final Four run was a less of a fluke than GMU's because VCU followed it up with some additional strong seasons, but it also was still largely a fluke. I mean, a team that barely makes the NCAA Tournament to begin with (and wouldn't have made it had the field not expanded beyond 64 teams) and then turns around and makes a deep NCAA Tournament run is, pretty much by definition, overachieving. Throughout the early 2000s to 2013 period the CAA was usually a NCAA Tournament one-bid league, and more often than not the team that made the NCAAs lost in the round of 64 (albeit after giving their high major foe a real scare in most seasons). Additionally, VCU was the only CAA team that preceded or followed up a deep NCAA Tournament run with additional NCAA Tournament bids (and usually made the NCAA Tournament over a 4-5 year period).

As for the A-10 vs CAA comparison, it is a rare season when the A-10 doesn't put multiple teams in the NCAA Tournament. Going back to at least the early 1990s, it was the norm for the A-10 to have 2-3 participants in the NCAA Tournament, and the league would put in 4-5 teams in its very good seasons. There were a small number of seasons when the A-10 was down and had only one NCAA Tournament participant (2006 comes to mind), but those seasons didn't happen often, unlike the case of the CAA, Horizon League, the MAC, and Missouri Valley Conference (the four best mid-major conferences over the last 20 years; I'd say the MVC was by a small margin probably the best of those conferences in the last 10-15 years). It also wasn't too uncommon for the A-10 to put a team in the Sweet 16; without looking it up I'd say the A-10 accomplished that feat about 30-40% of the time over the last 25 years. Just because the CAA made a couple fluke Final Four runs doesn't mean it was or is a better conference than the A-10; you need to look at the entire body of work of all the teams in both conferences over the 20-25 year period I'm talking about.

Finally, I do agree about Jim Laranaga; his success at both GMU and Miami and Paul Hewitt's lack of success at GMU after being reasonably successful at Georgia Tech (most notably making the NCAA Championship Game in 2004) prove how good Laranaga is. He did a hell of a job at George Mason turning that program into a perennial CAA heavyweight and one of the better mid-major programs in the country. It is pretty obvious the school in Fairfax, VA really misses him.
MVC by a small margin?

It's not close. MVC has like 7 or 8 S16s in the last decade from like 4 or 5 programs. Don't care to find the actual number at this moment

Anyway, dgaf regarding the rest of your post

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Go...gate]

I'll add a third prong... The athletic department insulted a hell of a lot of fans when they told them, yeah, you've been buying season tickets for two, three, even four decades... But you've never contributed anything to the university or football team by doing it, it's finally time to start paying your share with these mandatory "donations." I haven't been going to UD games for forty years, but I don't care what business you're in, telling someone who has been buying your product since The Beatles were still together that they haven't done anything for you and having the petulant "what about me" attitude that they rolled it out with is a good way to lose a lot of people... And they did.

Ouch. Not good.

[phoenix3]

Elon freaking had our number for years. Lot of close games, but even good Furman teams struggled to beat the Phoenix. There are some absolute head scratchers in there.

I understand Elon and Furman will have a home and home starting in 2017. So, the Phoenix will be back in Paladin Stadium soon enough.

Yup.

[Terry2889]

Well, the only thing you brought up was running up the score, so what else did I have to go on?

Sure Tubby ran up the scores on some teams, but that had little to nothing to do with fans flocking to Newark. Heck, who wants to turn out to see a thumping of the Merchant Marines? They came out for many reasons in the 70's - great teams (UD did win three national titles in the '70's), it was a local product (many of the fans then were not graduates, but local Delaware folks), and it was a great atmosphere (tons of tailgating and a great stadium). And UD played two DI teams at the time, every other year in Newark (nova and the biggest rival, Temple). And it didn't hurt that in the 70's there was no internet and college football games on television were limited to 2 to 3 games in total on a Saturday.

But the demise of the football program, as measured by the fanbase, can be directly atttributable to the terrible rollout of the mandatory donation program in 2008, along with several other misfires by the administration at the same time (restrictions on tailgating, revising of the parking lots, restrictions on in-stadium items). But the biggest blow was jacking up the prices (in some cases by 30%-40%) and telling 40 year season ticket holders that they were not, nor ever had, contributing to the program (per the AD at the time, Edgar Johnson). UD realized they had screwed up in the years since and have rolled back many of the changes, but the damage was done. Attendance increased steadily following Tubby's retirement in 2001, and would continue to rise until the disastrous 2008 policy implementations, and the clumsiness in which it was done. And attendance has plummetted ever since, even when the team was succeeding on the field (re: 2010 national finalists). What was happening on the field, and the coach in charge of the team, was never a significant factor in losing the fanbase (as can be seen by firing KC and adding Brock doing nothing to reverse the trend in attendance) - people left because UD football was a tremendous gameday experience that got lost in the pursuit of squeezing every last ounce of revenue out of it. Now it's just a shadow of what it was and gameday's in Newark are barely above the ho-hum level as the amount of empty seats grows each year. I've been going to games for 42 years and it's never been this bad and that's a shame. What used to be a family tradition for most is ending, as I'm sure my kids won't be making treks to Newark with their families in the future. They killed the golden goose by trying to get too many eggs out it.

Dont ever remember Delaware running up the score... In fact one year (2000) in the midst of an undefeated season, they took their foot off the gas and let UNH come back from a 28 point deficit. Tubby was a pretty classy guy, he and Bill Bowes constantly needled one another but was all in good taste. This has nothing to do with the drop in attendance but I do know that Keeler was unpopular among the other coaching staffs in the CAA (they're a pretty tight group believe it or not) along with many of the coaches who formerly coached under Tubby. Even though he guided them to three national championship games, he also had more losing and .500 seasons than Delaware had had in a very long time. I've actually had the pleasure to speak with coach Brock a couple of years ago. Super nice guy. Got the feeling while talking to him that he was well aware that he had a long road ahead of him.

[DFW HOYA]

I do think that it is possible to get many of those fans to come back and to rebuild that atmosphere but it will take a President and AD with Kahunas to do it.

With magic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahuna

[superman7515]

With magic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahuna

No, alcohol.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1227/712650634_6f3dbd38dc.jpg

[cardiaccowboy]

I'll have to go with McNeese. A few new teams bringing back football in our major recruiting areas Lamar and Southeastern. Plus ULL actually getting a coach to recruit the Lafayette area really hurt us.

[caribbeanhen]

It's called the UDAF - a program that when rolled out had I don't know 75% of the stadium paying a mandatory donation per seat & a donation to park anywhere near the Tub. For those with decent seats it equated to an extra $12-13 per game. I personally didn't think it was crazy but it started a fallout I'll go into below.

It wasn't really that bad, it was overdue actually. But the problem was two-pronged: 1) The timing - they did it as the economy began to tank & many people were hesitant to throw more $$ at sporting events and 2) the rollout was horrendous. Most schools would partner such a move with stadium additions/improvements or with an announcement of a new league or moving up to FBS. The way UD positioned it was it would do nothing to specifically help the football program but to help fund scholarships for all of UD's 21-23 sports however many they had at the time. I went to the town halls they ran & the AD at the time who is now Stanford's AD (Muir) showed slides of mens & womens hoops and volleyball & you name it - pretty much everything but football.

What's happened since?

UD peaked in season tickets at like 11,200 seasons which I think was in 2008 (don't hold me to it - going off memory). Last year they had about 6,600 seasons & the thinking is it'll most likely be less for 2015. Do the math. That's 41% of the fan base has left & GF is correct - they aren't coming back.

The play on the field has been spotty since 1998 to be honest. Yes UD has been in 3 NC's since then, winning one (should've been 2), but they've had 5 good teams in the last 16 years. That averages to every 3rd year. The last 4 seasons have been no playoffs - longest stretch in my lifetime & odds are heavily stacked towards a 5th year this year.

Optimism in Newark? Lacking currently.

it almost sounds like a sinister plot to make football "go away" at Delaware so they Wharton crowd could take us to the Ivy League... typical college boys coming in to a place without a clue!

[underdawg]

I think SIU has had two, UNI (one or two?), Bradley one, Wichita STATE (2-3?)---Probably off a bit

[superman7515]

And the numbers are in...

Delaware season tickets sold in 2008: 11,302
Delaware season tickets sold in 2015: 6,150 -46.6%

Last year saw Delaware's lowest attendance since 1969 at 13,380 per game; finishing at sixth in the FCS.

[clenz]

And the numbers are in...

Delaware season tickets sold in 2008: 11,302
Delaware season tickets sold in 2015: 6,150 -46.6%

Last year saw Delaware's lowest attendance since 1969 at 13,380 per game; finishing at sixth in the FCS.
Eventually old people die...UD is one of the oldest fan bases I've ever seen when watching games.

[superman7515]

Haha, job security, but they haven't killed off that many yet. I'm not disputing your notion of the fanbase being old, it certainly is, but I've noticed this at a lot of the Mid-Atlantic and New England schools (and not just FCS, check out a Boston College game some day). Obviously no one is going to track it, but I wonder who actually has the oldest fans in the stands during the average season. One of the Ivies would be my guess.

[RootinFerDukes]

Eventually old people die...UD is one of the oldest fan bases I've ever seen when watching games.

When I went to the UD game in 2013, I saw what looked like a 90 year old man walking around with a walker, an oxygen mask and two people supporting him on both sides. I'd like to think I'm that old, hardcore fan one day. Literally until the day i die.

[RootinFerDukes]

Just curious superman, why do you think the ticket sales are dropping? Is it solely performance? You all were in the title game in 2010, not that long ago.

[proasu89]

Eventually old people die...UD is one of the oldest fan bases I've ever seen when watching games.

I sat in the middle of their fans during the 07 Championship game. Had to wake a couple of them up to get past them when going to the restroom.

[MR. CHICKEN]

...YA WANT REGRESSION......TUNE INTA....HENS...VS...FINS.....94.7 FM.......YA'LL GET REGRESSION......xembarrassedx....BROCK!

[clenz]

I sat in the middle of their fans during the 07 Championship game. Had to wake a couple of them up to get past them when going to the restroom.
I learned how old they were in 07 as well. They were trash talking UNI fans about Omar Cuff's chess playing ability....

Yeah, not making that up

[superman7515]

I learned how old they were in 07 as well. They were trash talking UNI fans about Omar Cuff's chess playing ability....

Yeah, not making that up


Hahaha. That's fantastic. Hey, at least it's unique trash talk.

[superman7515]

Just curious superman, why do you think the ticket sales are dropping? Is it solely performance? You all were in the title game in 2010, not that long ago.

Here ya go Rootie, kind of centralized it with attribution to those who chimed in...



Without a doubt it's Delaware, and it's not even close. Forget the on the field for a moment, the biggest issue at UD is that the fan support for the program was cut off by the administration and it's never coming back. Jacking up prices in 2008 with an ill-conceived and badly implemented mandatory donation program pushed away fans that had been there for decades and had multiple generations of fans. Look at the run in 2010 - UD had an all-time great team, and despite that still had one of the lowest playoff crowds in history for the UNH quarterfinal game - announced only 9k for that game. Whereas the program once had more consecutive seasons with 20k+ fans than even Montana, now we average about 15k per game and that number is greatly inflated. Tailgating lots sit mostly empty, there's no buzz inside the stadium with all the empty seats, and attendance plummets year after year even as they try to fix the mistakes they made implementing the athletic fund program. The problem is, the old time fans had introduced their kids and their grandkids and great grandkids to Delaware football and that's why everyone kept coming back. When they pissed off the longtime fans, they cut off that source of new fans. And in this day and age, there isn't an untapped source of FCS fans so there's no way to replenish the ranks. UD is still struggling on the field, and part of that is stubborness from the new coach to do everything the opposite of what KC did (we now abhor transfers for instance), but the biggest issue is that UD, who once averaged close to 22k per game for the season, will likely never see average crowds over 15k again. The program isn't dying, it's dead.


Sure, we had a lot of fans under Tubby...more fans than most stadiums. But UD's consecutive 20K game stretch included far more KC years than Tubby years. Here is the attendance for 1997:

1997(12-2, 7-1 Atlantic 10, 2nd Mid-Atlantic Division)Head Coach: Harold R. “Tubby” RaymondCaptain: Dorrell Green 9/6/97 New Hampshire 27-10 4,4659/13/97 Villanova 25-35 18,5659/20/97 West Chester 28-7 14,2039/27/97 Northeastern 38-14 4,10010/4/97 Boston University 49-17 2,02310/11/97 Richmond 24-7 14,32410/18/97 James Madison 49-27 12,00010/25/97 Massachusetts 40-9 5,31711/1/97 William & Mary 14-0 18,70711/8/97 Connecticut 37-29 20,78811/15/97 Lehigh 24-19 7,12211/29/97 Hofstra 24-14 14,075 (I-AA 1st Round) 12/6/97 Georgia Southern 16-7 11,203 (I-AA Quarterfinal)12/13/97McNeese State 21-23 14,461

14K for 3 home games...during a winning season. Not shabby, but not what we had until UD's AD decided to screw the pooch.

UD's consecutive run with 20K+ fans only included a few of Tubby's years, and it included KC's first 7 years, including UD record highest season ticket sales in 2008. But then, UD stepped in with their ridiculously implemented parking and ticket pricing fiasco...and the ignorant way in which they launched the programs.

Attendance quickly dropped off, as Gannonfan noted, due to people fleeing UD's arrogance, not due to the quality of football in general.

FWIW, KC always called off the dogs.

As to actual football, whether UD will be back to being a top FCS football team is still in question. We can hope, but the coaching decisions have been quite suspect recently.


Please, that's just utter nonsense. Heck, if you noticed, UD attendance waned in the late 80's and early 90's before (as Cluck points out) picking up steam at the tail end of the 90's and into KC's regime. To say that the program was based on running up the score in a couple of games in the 70's is just utter nonsense.

And that's also nonsense when you say they will be back. Of course UD will win again and will likely be a national contender in a couple of years - they are still Delaware and play in the CAA and spend a fair amount on football. They will win. But the bigger problem is the declining fanbase and there's nothing to do to salvage that now. They did fix some of the problems (they finally relented and had portions of the season ticket base not require mandatory donations, for instance, and they've greatly improved the gameday atmosphere) but the bigger problem is that you can't sell FCS football in this day and age. What they sold before was tradition and generational experiences (grandparents who were 30-40 year season ticket holders would often be surrounded by children, grandchildren, and even great grandchildren who all became Hens fans). Those groups were run off by the administration (everyone shares equal blame from the AD to the President) and the problem is they are never coming back. Couple that with a product that doesn't excite the average fan, and you have what UD has - a season ticket holder base that has declined about 50% in the past 7 years (from a high of 11k per year) and an attendance that is down about 30% and still declining. It's not going to get better, even if UD starts winning again. People started leaving in droves during a period when UD was in two national title games in the span of four years - winning can't cure this because people weren't leaving because of the product on the field.


Well, the only thing you brought up was running up the score, so what else did I have to go on?

Sure Tubby ran up the scores on some teams, but that had little to nothing to do with fans flocking to Newark. Heck, who wants to turn out to see a thumping of the Merchant Marines? They came out for many reasons in the 70's - great teams (UD did win three national titles in the '70's), it was a local product (many of the fans then were not graduates, but local Delaware folks), and it was a great atmosphere (tons of tailgating and a great stadium). And UD played two DI teams at the time, every other year in Newark (nova and the biggest rival, Temple). And it didn't hurt that in the 70's there was no internet and college football games on television were limited to 2 to 3 games in total on a Saturday.

But the demise of the football program, as measured by the fanbase, can be directly atttributable to the terrible rollout of the mandatory donation program in 2008, along with several other misfires by the administration at the same time (restrictions on tailgating, revising of the parking lots, restrictions on in-stadium items). But the biggest blow was jacking up the prices (in some cases by 30%-40%) and telling 40 year season ticket holders that they were not, nor ever had, contributing to the program (per the AD at the time, Edgar Johnson). UD realized they had screwed up in the years since and have rolled back many of the changes, but the damage was done. Attendance increased steadily following Tubby's retirement in 2001, and would continue to rise until the disastrous 2008 policy implementations, and the clumsiness in which it was done. And attendance has plummetted ever since, even when the team was succeeding on the field (re: 2010 national finalists). What was happening on the field, and the coach in charge of the team, was never a significant factor in losing the fanbase (as can be seen by firing KC and adding Brock doing nothing to reverse the trend in attendance) - people left because UD football was a tremendous gameday experience that got lost in the pursuit of squeezing every last ounce of revenue out of it. Now it's just a shadow of what it was and gameday's in Newark are barely above the ho-hum level as the amount of empty seats grows each year. I've been going to games for 42 years and it's never been this bad and that's a shame. What used to be a family tradition for most is ending, as I'm sure my kids won't be making treks to Newark with their families in the future. They killed the golden goose by trying to get too many eggs out it.


It's called the UDAF - a program that when rolled out had I don't know 75% of the stadium paying a mandatory donation per seat & a donation to park anywhere near the Tub. For those with decent seats it equated to an extra $12-13 per game. I personally didn't think it was crazy but it started a fallout I'll go into below.

It wasn't really that bad, it was overdue actually. But the problem was two-pronged: 1) The timing - they did it as the economy began to tank & many people were hesitant to throw more $$ at sporting events and 2) the rollout was horrendous. Most schools would partner such a move with stadium additions/improvements or with an announcement of a new league or moving up to FBS. The way UD positioned it was it would do nothing to specifically help the football program but to help fund scholarships for all of UD's 21-23 sports however many they had at the time. I went to the town halls they ran & the AD at the time who is now Stanford's AD (Muir) showed slides of mens & womens hoops and volleyball & you name it - pretty much everything but football.

What's happened since?

UD peaked in season tickets at like 11,200 seasons which I think was in 2008 (don't hold me to it - going off memory). Last year they had about 6,600 seasons & the thinking is it'll most likely be less for 2015. Do the math. That's 41% of the fan base has left & GF is correct - they aren't coming back.

The play on the field has been spotty since 1998 to be honest. Yes UD has been in 3 NC's since then, winning one (should've been 2), but they've had 5 good teams in the last 16 years. That averages to every 3rd year. The last 4 seasons have been no playoffs - longest stretch in my lifetime & odds are heavily stacked towards a 5th year this year.

Optimism in Newark? Lacking currently.


I'll add a third prong... The athletic department insulted a hell of a lot of fans when they told them, yeah, you've been buying season tickets for two, three, even four decades... But you've never contributed anything to the university or football team by doing it, it's finally time to start paying your share with these mandatory "donations." I haven't been going to UD games for forty years, but I don't care what business you're in, telling someone who has been buying your product since The Beatles were still together that they haven't done anything for you and having the petulant "what about me" attitude that they rolled it out with is a good way to lose a lot of people... And they did.


Agreed that their public relations & customer service efforts thrown at the roll out were severely lacking & alienated some people just as you outlined.

[RootinFerDukes]

So UD fans didn't like the implementation of a donor supported progam. JMU has the Duke Club and certain seats require a minimum donation level (thus making it "mandatory" even if the school and some fans won't call it that). I guess the problem was that some fans were already in said seats and were told they had to suddenly pay $150 per year BEFORE the cost of their seats? Maybe more for on the fifty yard line (a couple thousand)?
Why didn't UD already have a donor program prior to 2008? That's REALLY late to implement such a thing.
Our ticket and donor levels have been going up due to increasing costs and stadium expansion (crazy thing, expecting the fan to pay for their experience). Some fans are griping and our attendance is declining, but I'm not sure if it's cost, performance or completely botching the potential move-up to FBS. It could be a bit of all three.
I believe that first priority is winning. Then cost. Then a couple hundred fans and their groups that come with that (1k fans at best from the looks of it) are too butthurt about the FBS fiasco to show up to their one-game every two years in the cheapest seats. It's just going to kill them to drive from a whopping 2 or 3 hours away when it means they have to get up off their couch and bring the wife and kids.

I don't think it was too asinine to implement a donor system for seats with the all-time high demand levels that UD had at the time. They are trying to raise revenues and be less reliant on student fees to pay the bills.
If you're such die-hard fans for decades and generations, why drop that loyalty literally overnight? That's just my opinion.

[clenz]

So UD fans didn't like the implementation of a donor supported progam. JMU has the Duke Club and certain seats require a minimum donation level (thus making it "mandatory" even if the school and some fans won't call it that). I guess the problem was that some fans were already in said seats and were told they had to suddenly pay $150 per year BEFORE the cost of their seats? Maybe more for on the fifty yard line (a couple thousand)?
Why didn't UD already have a donor program prior to 2008? That's REALLY late to implement such a thing.
Our ticket and donor levels have been going up due to increasing costs and stadium expansion (crazy thing, expecting the fan to pay for their experience). Some fans are griping and our attendance is declining, but I'm not sure if it's cost, performance or completely botching the potential move-up to FBS. It could be a bit of all three.
I believe that first priority is winning. Then cost. Then a couple hundred fans and their groups that come with that (1k fans at best from the looks of it) are too butthurt about the FBS fiasco to show up to their one-game every two years in the cheapest seats. It's just going to kill them to drive from a whopping 2 or 3 hours away when it means they have to get up off their couch and bring the wife and kids.
UNI also has a donor priority for seating.

To sit between the 35s at UNI requires a minimum donation to the athletic department on top of the season tickets. We lost zero season tickets after that. In fact UNI is seeing a rise in season tickets every year, and record donations every year.

[Daytripper]

Eventually old people die...UD is one of the oldest fan bases I've ever seen when watching games.


Come to a Sam Houston game and look who is sitting in the Orange Chairbacks.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/GW3gnJwLKxAgo/200.gif

[superman7515]

If you're such die-hard fans for decades and generations, why drop that loyalty literally overnight? That's just my opinion.

I don't think it had anything to do with the costs in itself. If they had just explained their rationale, said where they were going with it, and then rolled it out, I believe the vast majority would have stayed. But instead, they said that the people who had been there every game for 40+ years had done nothing to contribute to the program and were basically a wasted seat and had a "you're for us or against us" attitude where if you had questions about what they were rolling out, you were treated almost like you were a problem to be dealt with instead of a customer to be sold on. Other places added their fees when they rolled out some big upgrade so that fans felt they had some sort of vested interest in where it was going, UD rolled it out with a crack down on tailgating as they brought in extra police to ride horseback around the lots busting students for drinking, security in fist fights with fans over noisemakers (okay during the regular season, but UD tried blaming the NCAA), and a host of other middle fingers.

[McNeese75]

Come to a Sam Houston game and look who is sitting in the Orange Chairbacks.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/GW3gnJwLKxAgo/200.gif
The old geezers that pay the damn bills. lol

Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk

[GoAgs72]

Dark horse: Northern Colorado. I ran the numbers and compared # of wins between 1995 and 2004 to # of wins 2005 to 2014.

Northern Colorado's win pct went from .714 to .196.
UC Davis went from .720 to .438
Western Illinois went from .667 to .395
Georgetown went from .556 to .284
Murray State went from .623 to .354

Prairie View A&M went from .113 to .551 - a candidate for most improved?

Northern Colorado and UC Davis were DII in the first set of years and FCS in the second set - not really a legitimate comparison since they were not FCS the whole time.

[taper]

I learned how old they were in 07 as well. They were trash talking UNI fans about Omar Cuff's chess playing ability....

Yeah, not making that up

Saw this at the Harvard-Yale Gameday last year.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMzhhHtxfCNJ9R3u-Jsdug9_lxgHvQ8uahztQdt7ahIcw_0tR6rA

[Mattymc727]

What happens when you go from being in the title game in 2010 to losing to a pioneer league team at home in 2015?

[Bisonator]

UD just confirmed as the winner of this title!

[AshevilleApp2]

Come to a Sam Houston game and look who is sitting in the Orange Chairbacks.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/GW3gnJwLKxAgo/200.gif



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks1chQe2Eew

[RootinFerDukes]

It baffles me how these UD teams continue to have jmu's number lately.