NCAA to examine Division I model in August

[The Cats]

(Is Division 1 about to change?)


From CBS Sports.....




NCAA to examine Division I model in August


The NCAA will hold a summit Aug. 4-5 to strategize about the future of Division I.

Members of the board of directors and various committees will participate and are studying four areas:
(1) The Division I amateur model, including key features of athletes' experience and the use of athletic resources;
(2) How college sports should assist students, including academic achievement and appropriate time demands;
(3) How college sports should help students prepare for life after college, including those who want to pursue professional careers and the Olympics;
(4) How Division I should operate, including examining the current subdivision structure and the role of conferences.

Former national security adviser Tom Donilin, now vice chair of the law firm O'Melveny & Meyers, has been working with each of the planning groups in preparation for the summit. O'Melveny & Meyers is representing the NCAA in a lawsuit brought against the association and the University of North Carolina over the academic scandal at North Carolina.

[The Cats]

duplicate, please delete

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Two FCS ADs, Drake's Sandy Hatfield Clubb and Richmond's Keith Gill, will be in the subcommittee that are discussing "how D-I should operate".

Three D-I non-football reps are on there from DePaul, West Florida, and CS-Northridge, as well as one student rep.

There is no senior leadership on there from the Sun Belt, MAC, or AAC.

[smallcollegefbfan]

This might be where they make 3 classifications in FBS with the Power 5 separating and we will have 3 D1 champions. If so, wonder if we have 3 playoffs or just 2 playoffs and 2 champions with the 2nd tier group having a rep in the Power 5 playoff down the line? Could get interesting. I have no inside knowledge on this so I'm going to be just as surprised as everyone else. I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

[DFW HOYA]

This might be where they make 3 classifications in FBS with the Power 5 separating and we will have 3 D1 champions. If so, wonder if we have 3 playoffs or just 2 playoffs and 2 champions with the 2nd tier group having a rep in the Power 5 playoff down the line? Could get interesting. I have no inside knowledge on this so I'm going to be just as surprised as everyone else. I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

There is even less interest in a G5 champion than you would think.

Likely going to be two groups: P5 and everyone else. G5 I-A schools choose to go to bowls, I-AA schools don't, and I-AAA schools don't play at all.

[clenz]

I'm not sure S.H.C. is the best person to have in this kind of thing.....

She can barely manage Drake's athletic department....and that's being generous

[smallcollegefbfan]

There is even less interest in a G5 champion than you would think.

Likely going to be two groups: P5 and everyone else. G5 I-A schools choose to go to bowls, I-AA schools don't, and I-AAA schools don't play at all.

I don't think there is much interest, which is why I think the G5 schools will be 2nd tier and may or may not have a shot to get in the playoffs. FCS schools are going to be in the defined 3rd tier and will get even less national media interest if they make a defined three tiers.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is even less interest in a G5 champion than you would think.

Likely going to be two groups: P5 and everyone else. G5 I-A schools choose to go to bowls, I-AA schools don't, and I-AAA schools don't play at all.

How many bowl agreements are there vs. P5 conferences and G5 schools? I count 4, I think.... Are some of them at-larges where you can pick from all the remaining bowl-eligible teams or something?

Would the P5 elect to close off the bowls?

[clenz]

I don't think there is much interest, which is why I think the G5 schools will be 2nd tier and may or may not have a shot to get in the playoffs. FCS schools are going to be in the defined 3rd tier and will get even less national media interest if they make a defined three tiers.
I think it was 2 years ago when all the big **** was going down that UNI's AD said something to the tone of "Nothing is going to happen that will affect UNI, or the majority of the FCS, right now. However by 2018-2020 there is likely to be a shift that will alter what CFB looks like across all D1 levels." To paraphrase a bit more he was asked about UNI's stance about maybe FBS should things change. Essentially he said UNI isn't looking FBS right now but will do whatever it takes to remain at the 2nd level of D1 football. Right now it's FBS/FCS but there will be a time when that isn't the case and UNI will be one of the leaders in moving to that new second level when it happens.


So...it's coming but no one knows to what extent yet

[RichH2]

If P5 is the driver of the bus,the sole factor will be control of money. How that will play out for the rest of college will be interesting and likely not pleasant. IMO,a three tiered system will be PC but cumbersome to imement given the overlap of top FCS teams and G5.Any bets how many FCS move up to a new level?

[clenz]

If P5 is the driver of the bus,the sole factor will be control of money. How that will play out for the rest of college will be interesting and likely not pleasant. IMO,a three tiered system will be PC but cumbersome to imement given the overlap of top FCS teams and G5.Any bets how many FCS move up to a new level?
40ish...give or take how it may affect schools in football only conferences, how many rivalries need to be in tact, cost of scholarship level, FCOA, etc...

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I don't think there is much interest, which is why I think the G5 schools will be 2nd tier and may or may not have a shot to get in the playoffs. FCS schools are going to be in the defined 3rd tier and will get even less national media interest if they make a defined three tiers.

When the third tier can routinely beat or at least match the 3rd tier I don't think we have much to worry about and we won't be losing any big media attention. We don't really have it now. Neither does the 2nd tier. When the bigs break away this ****s the 2nd tier harder than it does the 3rd tier. The labels don't matter...after P5 anyway.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

40ish...give or take how it may affect schools in football only conferences, how many rivalries need to be in tact, cost of scholarship level, FCOA, etc...

As I've said for many years if they have a playoff at whatever tier 2 is then we'll see a bunch as you said because it will change the hearts of many fans that like the playoffs and know the excitement of them and strive for that. If not then it's gonna be a tough sell as always.

The G5 will need the bigger FCS schools as much or more than we need them. Not only that if certain conferences make a change it makes for much smarter conference alignments etc.

It is gonna change, but all that crap we heard when teams needed to move up because "the door is closing" is complete bull****.

[RichH2]

Somewhere in the 40s is about what I figure is possible. ursus has an excellent point that number could be substantially different depending on a playoff format or not in possible new tier. A bit complicated as LFN points at with current bowl menagerie.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To the P5, there are two levels:

* The P5
* Everyone else

Northern Illinois, UNI, Wisconsin-Whitewater - all the same.

The only reason they "care" about the G5 any more than that is that they have a postseason arrangement with some of them. Similarly, the only reason they "care" about the FCS and G5 is that they also provide preseason games for their schools.

Now if the access to P5 teams in bowls closes off... the FCS and G5 becomes identical in their eyes, IMO.

[clenz]

As I've said for many years if they have a playoff at whatever tier 2 is then we'll see a bunch as you said because it will change the hearts of many fans that like the playoffs and know the excitement of them and strive for that. If not then it's gonna be a tough sell as always.

The G5 will need the bigger FCS schools as much or more than we need them. Not only that if certain conferences make a change it makes for much smarter conference alignments etc.

It is gonna change, but all that crap we heard when teams needed to move up because "the door is closing" is complete bull****.
Yeah, I was going with a playoff model with my guess of 40ish.

I also assume the "big dogs" that are in the G5 right now will no longer be there:
BYU
Boise State
UCONN
Cinci
Most of the MWC is going to have to make a big decision if they want to make a move to be a big boy or not and Hawaii if they want FB or not.

I'll work on a list I see in the new division from the FCS...a complete guess for the most part but the schools I see as most likely.

[RichH2]

No playoff format,guessing we'd have about the same suspects as now for moving up.

[clenz]

No playoff format,guessing we'd have about the same suspects as now for moving up.
Going no playoff format? I think you're going to struggle to draw 10-2020 on that one.

Non playoff teams: (all assuming they "get an invite"

Big Sky:
UND? - because they have an ego

Big South:
Liberty - pretty high odd, assuming they find an invite


CAA:
James Madison


Ivy:
Might go for a "conference move up"?

MEAC:
No idea...i don't think any of them could afford it

MVFC:
Iillinois State - maybe but doubt it depending how it affected standing in the MVC
Missouri State - for sure
NDSU - maybe?
Northern Iowa - maybe but doubt it depending how it affected standing in the MVC
Southern Illinois - maybe but doubt it depending how it affected standing in the MVC
SDSU - maybe?
YSU - for sure

NEC:
none

OVC:
EKU
JSU


Patriot:
No guesses...but I'm sure HC would jizz themselves if Sader is a representation of HC...but redshirts and scholarships would be an issue for them

Pioneer:
None

SoCon:
Chatty?


SLC:
SHSU seems like they would
Maybe SFA, SELA and MSU...I don't have a read on it

SWAC:
Much like the MEAC.

So you have 7-10 for sure and another 15-20 "meh, I'll listen but I doubt it"

[clenz]

Playoff format you'd see more

This is all assuming conference alighment worked to the benefit of all schools and schools could keep other sports in other conferences if it wanted too...essentially "football only" conferences. Also schools that I think "could" afford it or would fake it till they made it - so to speak

Big Sky
Poly
EWU
Montana
Montana State
NAU
UND

Big South
CCU
Kennesaw State
Liberty

CAA
Delaware
Elon
JMU
UNH
Richmond
Towson
Nova - maybe?
William and Mary

Ivy:
Nope, but it might be enough to "spur them" since they'd be "bigger boys" now

MEAC:
Nope...still have their classics


MVFC
All of them? USD, WIU and ISUb are "odd ones out" in terms of money and resources but they won't be left behind

NEC:
No idea..I'm going with none


OVC:
EIU
EKU
JSU
don't really know about the others so I'm going no

Patriot
No idea

Pioneer:
Nope


SoCon
Chatty
Furman
Mercer
Samerford
WCU
Wofford

SLC
Same as non-playoff model.


What'st that give me? Roughly 40-50 depending on a couple factors.


I would assume anyone else that did this list is probably coming to 75-80%, minimum, the same teams.

[RichH2]

A thought. Will there be a change in scholarship caps for each tier? If so ,wont that affect team decisions?

[clenz]

A thought. Will there be a change in scholarship caps for each tier? If so ,wont that affect team decisions?
I would assume that whomever moves from FCS is going to have to jump to AT LEAST 74 or 75. It depends on if schools like BYU, Boise, Cinci, etc... are able to get out then I think the limit would be 75 but there would be a fight from the "left overs" about that, but if they are "forced" into a 1A, 1AA, and 1AAA (left over FCS schools) they would have no choice.

Yes, it would have a large impact for many fringe teams. It's why I said my list was schools I thought could do it, or would "fake it" to make it work.

[RichH2]

Thanks clenz. Makes sense. Not looking forward to these scenarios tho.

[Gangtackle11]

Clenz hypothesis may have Villanova thinking Patriot over jump up. Interesting.

[clenz]

Clenz hypothesis may have Villanova thinking Patriot over jump up. Interesting.
Nova is a tough one for me to judge.

My "heart" think they'd do it BUT I don't how the Big East would react to a "big time" football school at 75-83 scholarships. It already didn't work once and it seems to work with Nova now because they aren't dumping tons of money into football.

Schools like UNI, SIU and ISUb also cause a conundrum for me. As it stands all of them have said they have no interest in doing anything with football that would put their standing with the MVC at stake. However, if the situation comes up where a new conference, that includes football, can be same level (or higher) with basketball and it won't hurt basketball or volleyball then a move would be considered.

Schools that are basketball or "deeply care" about more than just football will have a tough decision to make.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

A thought. Will there be a change in scholarship caps for each tier? If so ,wont that affect team decisions?

Another # I've pointed to as a probable for a mix of G5 and FCS "top 40" (we'll call em' that but could be many more) would be about 72-75 to make it a bit of a hybrid between the P5 and FCS levels.

[clenz]

Also interesting to think that the schools that don't move up and would be dropped to D2 scholarship levels (remember, D2 is 36) would have a hard choice to make about the viability of football at that point.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Didn't flip the page and got beat by clenz again.

[clenz]

Didn't flip the page and got beat by clenz again.
It's why I go 49 post per page

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The elephant in the room here is how FCOA is going to work.

The P5 have said they are offering it, period.

The non-P5 schools individually have the ability to define a scholarship has having FCOA, or not. Conferences have the ability to require FCOA for certain sports.

Might FCOA become required to stay in "Division I Non-Power Subdivision"?

[Gangtackle11]

Nova is a tough one for me to judge.

My "heart" think they'd do it BUT I don't how the Big East would react to a "big time" football school at 75-83 scholarships. It already didn't work once and it seems to work with Nova now because they aren't dumping tons of money into football.

Schools like UNI, SIU and ISUb also cause a conundrum for me. As it stands all of them have said they have no interest in doing anything with football that would put their standing with the MVC at stake. However, if the situation comes up where a new conference, that includes football, can be same level (or higher) with basketball and it won't hurt basketball or volleyball then a move would be considered.

Schools that are basketball or "deeply care" about more than just football will have a tough decision to make.


The Big East football collapse effectively ended any FBS thoughts on the Mainline. The problem lies at the foot of poor attendance & no viable stadium to play in. Campus stadium is old & holds 13,000. The township is not warm to any major construction & funding would be problematic.

Stadium in nearby Chester holds 25,000, but MLS soccer team has strangle hold on it during most football season.

I believe Villanova likes the CAA landscape, but if 1/2 the league leaves it will leave them with an interesting decision on their future for sure.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

It's why I go 49 post per page

Can't do that. Like the convenience of being able to read a quick page while waiting for something at work to finish etc. so need that option to bolt quickly and come back to where I left off. Just gonna have to have keep nerd flipping and seeing I'm late.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'll be interested to see how this plays out. IMO, I don't see any drastic changes coming in the next 5-10 years.

The severe depletion of the AAC and MWC is what could change things. There's probably 10-12 schools between those two leagues that have legitimate value.....

[DFW HOYA]

Clenz hypothesis may have Villanova thinking Patriot over jump up. Interesting.

For the Patriot League, all discussions come down to two truisms:

1. If it was good enough for Peter Likins in 1986, it's probably good enough for today.
2. If #1 applies, CAA schools still aren't interested in joining.

Honorable mention: "Holy Cross should have been in the Big East."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Villanova: "Wherever Big East Basketball goes, we follow." That's pretty much all you need to know.

[Go...gate]

For the Patriot League, all discussions come down to two truisms:

1. If it was good enough for Peter Likins in 1986, it's probably good enough for today.
2. If #1 applies, CAA schools still aren't interested in joining.

Honorable mention: "Holy Cross should have been in the Big East."

IMO, we are, at least in some ways, a different conference than was envisioned in 1986.

[taper]

Staying in the 2nd tier for NDSU is inevitable. I don't want to go anywhere without SDSU and UNI though. I have a pipe dream of recreating the old NCC, as it should have been after the late 70's.

[PAllen]

A thought. Will there be a change in scholarship caps for each tier? If so ,wont that affect team decisions?

I can almost guarantee it on both counts. Expect the top tier to be over 100, with fewer academic requirements. That will be the DI experience for those looking to further their prospects as professional athletes.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Staying in the 2nd tier for NDSU is inevitable. I don't want to go anywhere without SDSU and UNI though. I have a pipe dream of recreating the old NCC, as it should have been after the late 70's.


I think NDSU would move up to the 2nd tier with or w/o SDSU or UNI.

[Catatonic]

It would be good to see a structure that reflected the reality of college football.

P5
G5
FCS Scholarship
FCS Non-scholarship
D2
D3

There are, of course, elite schools at each level that are as good as or better than schools in the classification above them Boise State is better than most p5 teams. NDSU has proven they can compete against G5 and many p5 schools. CSU-Pueblo...well, out of deference to a certain unnamed conference mate I won't go there.

Outliers aside, there are distinct differences in these levels of play. It would be good to see this reality reflected in the NCAA structure. I don't expect it will happen, however. Logic rarely trumps politics.

[DFW HOYA]

It would be good to see a structure that reflected the reality of college football.

P5
G5
FCS Scholarship
FCS Non-scholarship
D2
D3



Except the numbers don't fit for one of these groups:

P5: 65
G5: 63
FCS-Scholarship: 105
FCS-Non-Scholarship: 20
Division II: 161
Division III: 242

This is why the I-AAA subdivision never took hold 20 years ago.

[Go...gate]

Except the numbers don't fit for one of these groups:

P5: 65
G5: 63
FCS-Scholarship: 105
FCS-Non-Scholarship: 20
Division II: 161
Division III: 242

This is why the I-AAA subdivision never took hold 20 years ago.

Even that number of 20 can be strenuously debated.

The Ivies essentially do give financial aid - "scholarships" to football players but call it something else. They set aside slots for athletes and earmark aid for them. This what the Patriot League did for years - all they did was to start calling the aid scholarships and eliminated the "slots" in favor of scholarship players and walk-ons.

The PFL and Georgetown are really the only pure "non-scholarship" programs.

[Catatonic]

Except the numbers don't fit for one of these groups:

P5: 65
G5: 63
FCS-Scholarship: 105
FCS-Non-Scholarship: 20
Division II: 161
Division III: 242

This is why the I-AAA subdivision never took hold 20 years ago.

Ok, then. include the FCS_non_scholarship category in FCS. We are still left with 3 distinct categories under what is now called D1.

[Daytripper]

Playoff format you'd see more

This is all assuming conference alighment worked to the benefit of all schools and schools could keep other sports in other conferences if it wanted too...essentially "football only" conferences. Also schools that I think "could" afford it or would fake it till they made it - so to speak

Big Sky
Poly
EWU
Montana
Montana State
NAU
UND

Big South
CCU
Kennesaw State
Liberty

CAA
Delaware
Elon
JMU
UNH
Richmond
Towson
Nova - maybe?
William and Mary

Ivy:
Nope, but it might be enough to "spur them" since they'd be "bigger boys" now

MEAC:
Nope...still have their classics


MVFC
All of them? USD, WIU and ISUb are "odd ones out" in terms of money and resources but they won't be left behind

NEC:
No idea..I'm going with none


OVC:
EIU
EKU
JSU
don't really know about the others so I'm going no

Patriot
No idea

Pioneer:
Nope


SoCon
Chatty
Furman
Mercer
Samerford
WCU
Wofford

SLC
Same as non-playoff model.


What'st that give me? Roughly 40-50 depending on a couple factors.


I would assume anyone else that did this list is probably coming to 75-80%, minimum, the same teams.


In the SLC Lamar would go. They have the oil money.

[goyotes]

Sirius/XM interview with Big Sky Commissioner https://soundcloud.com/siriusxmcollege/doug-fullerton-look-out-for-the-fcs-in-the-next-4-5-years

[Go Green]

Ivy:
Nope, but it might be enough to "spur them" since they'd be "bigger boys" now


Patriot
No idea




I have no idea how this will shake out.

But however it does, my best guess is that the Ivy and the Patriot end up in the same landing place.

[RichH2]

I have no idea how this will shake out.

But however it does, my best guess is that the Ivy and the Patriot end up in the same landing place.
Most likely. Question is whether it will be all PL schools.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Sirius/XM interview with Big Sky Commissioner https://soundcloud.com/siriusxmcollege/doug-fullerton-look-out-for-the-fcs-in-the-next-4-5-years

That sounds exactly right to me. I need to go find some of the arguments from a few years ago because the things he said are identical to what I and a few others were arguing with some of the App State guys and so forth.

Also, watch closely at the facilities upgrades that will be coming I'd bet to schools in the upper 5 or 6 conferences in FCS. Once the P5 pulls away then there will be some money issues for a time but after that the "top 40" and the G5 look pretty much the same in facilities, student bodies, athletes, etc. The G5 schools (for the most part) will be spending mucho cash to have basically what the top 1/3 has.

[DFW HOYA]

Also, watch closely at the facilities upgrades that will be coming I'd bet to schools in the upper 5 or 6 conferences in FCS. Once the P5 pulls away then there will be some money issues for a time but after that the "top 40" and the G5 look pretty much the same in facilities, student bodies, athletes, etc.

With the costs of facilities as they are, a school is going to spend $100M or more on stadium projects for one of two reasons: customer demand or a conference is moving up as a whole. There aren't many I-AA schools with the pent-up demand to spend that kind of money and almost all would be banking on state funds to do it in an era where public funding for athletics will go down, not up.

And how many I-AA schools right now would be in a future discussion?

The Big Sky, if it moved up as a group, though not all would.
James Madison, maybe.
Villanova, has the brand name but has neither the will nor the offer.
Delaware, maybe
Missouri Valley as a group = see Big Sky
Georgetown = see Villanova
Jax State, maybe
Liberty, if someone called

[FUBeAR]

Except the numbers don't fit for one of these groups:

P5: 65
G5: 63
FCS-Scholarship: 105
FCS-Non-Scholarship: 20
Division II: 161
Division III: 242

This is why the I-AAA subdivision never took hold 20 years ago.

A possible scenario...

P5: 80 (they'd prefer 64, but they'll find a way to make 5 conferences of 16 teams fit into a limited playoff / bowl scheme) - NFL/NBA Professional Farm Leagues - very limited, if any, academic requirements. FCOA +++

Next Tier: 48 'remaining' former G5 Teams + FCS Scholarship Teams willing to 'step it up' a bit. Maybe 20 don't, may actually be more (105-20=85). Ivies, SWAC, and MEAC also not included if they don't want to 'play' in Football Playoffs (85-29=56)...48+56=105 Teams playing the sport formerly known as college football - FULL Playoffs, Academic Requirements - Limited, if any, FCOA

Division II: 161 - no change

Division III: 242+11 PFL+20+29 = 302 - No requirement to play D1 Football to play D1 in other sports - No Football Athletic Scholarships - Conference Alignment/Realignment along non-football sports level - Playoff participation optional - FCOA for non-football athletes only if school is D1 in other sports.

[CrazyCat]

I don't think it would take that much for the teams that could/should be included below the big 5. In our case all we need is an east side renovation and an IPF.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

With the costs of facilities as they are, a school is going to spend $100M or more on stadium projects for one of two reasons: customer demand or a conference is moving up as a whole. There aren't many I-AA schools with the pent-up demand to spend that kind of money and almost all would be banking on state funds to do it in an era where public funding for athletics will go down, not up.

And how many I-AA schools right now would be in a future discussion?

The Big Sky, if it moved up as a group, though not all would.
James Madison, maybe.
Villanova, has the brand name but has neither the will nor the offer.
Delaware, maybe
Missouri Valley as a group = see Big Sky
Georgetown = see Villanova
Jax State, maybe
Liberty, if someone called

Yes, you will probably be seeing more, sooner than we would have if schools are thinking a mash up might happen that involves FCS and G5's meeting in the middle. I am absolutely talking about the schools that need some improvements to stay with their peers in certain confereces like the BSC.

[Cocky]

JSU and EKU out of the OVC would move. Murray with Bball is the ? to me. Not familiar enough with EIU to have a read.

[Sitting Bull]

Any split to 3 Divisions - which seems most logical right now - I could see the Big Sky, CAA and Missouri Valley all make the shift as conferences into the middle G5 group.

The remaining within current FCS would be the third/lower tier.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Any split to 3 Divisions - which seems most logical right now - I could see the Big Sky, CAA and Missouri Valley all make the shift as conferences into the middle G5 group.

The remaining within current FCS would be the third/lower tier.

Sorry I have to keep adding this but "with playoffs" and I go with ya. Less chance than ever before without that key part of the equation I think. I think a good portion of the SLC would also be poised to move.

[DFW HOYA]

The remaining within current FCS would be the third/lower tier.

What's left for a playoff among:

OVC
Big South
Southern
Southland
Patriot
Northeast
Pioneer

[Herder]

Yes, you will probably be seeing more, sooner than we would have if schools are thinking a mash up might happen that involves FCS and G5's meeting in the middle. I am absolutely talking about the schools that need some improvements to stay with their peers in certain confereces like the BSC.

Nothing can happen to merge the FCS and FBS G5 unless something happens to bridge the scholarship divide. IMO slots would to be created, because very few fcs teams can afford to move to 85, and G5s don't want to move down.

Proposed Scholarship Slots:
1: 81-90 (P5 & Top G5s)
2: 70-80 (G5s & Top FCS)
3: 0-63 (could move down to 50) (Remaining FCS)

3 DI championships, but only if scholarship levels change and slots are identified.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The P5 will not expand from its present level of conferences. They may poach some valuable athletic brands from the rest of D-I, but there is no way in God's Green Earth they will expand the number of conferences and willingly fork over any money for that purpose. Even expanding with new schools is dicey - see the prior sentence.

Again, the P5 see themselves as the "real Division I" and pretty much doesn't care about what happens to the rest. G5, FCS... they are just preseason spots on the schedule. Anyone who thinks the P5's thinking is going to spend any money or thought towards how to structure the "rest" hasn't been paying very close attention to college athletics over the past quarter century. It is all about them. As for the great unwashed... let them eat cake.

[Herder]

The P5 will not expand from its present level of conferences. They may poach some valuable athletic brands from the rest of D-I, but there is no way in God's Green Earth they will expand the number of conferences and willingly fork over any money for that purpose. Even expanding with new schools is dicey - see the prior sentence.

Again, the P5 see themselves as the "real Division I" and pretty much doesn't care about what happens to the rest. G5, FCS... they are just preseason spots on the schedule. Anyone who thinks the P5's thinking is going to spend any money or thought towards how to structure the "rest" hasn't been paying very close attention to college athletics over the past quarter century. It is all about them. As for the great unwashed... let them eat cake.

Blah, blah, blah . . . You are pointing out the obvious. All of FBS is at 85 scholarships, so how does the P5 break away when the G5 is at the same scholarship level? Tell me how the P5 separates from the G5 when most of P5 can't afford to spend more on scholarships either.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Blah, blah, blah . . . You are pointing out the obvious. All of FBS is at 85 scholarships, so how does the P5 break away when the G5 is at the same scholarship level? Tell me how the P5 separates from the G5 when most of P5 can't afford to spend more on scholarships either.

Close off the bowls. If a bowl accepts a G5 member, don't send a P5 member to it.

[Bisonoline]

Close off the bowls. If a bowl accepts a G5 member, don't send a P5 member to it.

The P5 was created to make and retain more money. They certainly are not going to turn down a bowl game when money is on the line.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The P5 was created to make and retain more money. They certainly are not going to turn down a profitable bowl game when money is on the line.

FIFY

[Bisonoline]

FIFY

They arent turning down a bowl game. Period.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Nothing can happen to merge the FCS and FBS G5 unless something happens to bridge the scholarship divide. IMO slots would to be created, because very few fcs teams can afford to move to 85, and G5s don't want to move down.

Proposed Scholarship Slots:
1: 81-90 (P5 & Top G5s)
2: 70-80 (G5s & Top FCS)
3: 0-63 (could move down to 50) (Remaining FCS)

3 DI championships, but only if scholarship levels change and slots are identified.

Yeah, we've already talked about that so I assumed it was a given that this needs to happen? Anything I've said or will say you can asume I'm going with a meeting of minds on scholarships.

[Go...gate]

I have no idea how this will shake out.

But however it does, my best guess is that the Ivy and the Patriot end up in the same landing place.

Agree wholeheartedly. Would it surprise anyone if the Patriot presidents elected to drop formal scholarships and return to need-based equivalencies, with Fordham joining the CAA?

[DFW HOYA]

Would it surprise anyone if the Patriot presidents elected to drop formal scholarships and return to need-based equivalencies, with Fordham joining the CAA?

Yes, I would be surprised. That ship has sailed.

[RichH2]

Yes, I would be surprised. That ship has sailed.
Yup. Born again virginity is a myth. In this scenario more likely Hoyas go to the Ivies. :)

[Go Green]

Yup. Born again virginity is a myth.:)

Holy Cross did it in 1991.

[Sitting Bull]

Nothing can happen to merge the FCS and FBS G5 unless something happens to bridge the scholarship divide. IMO slots would to be created, because very few fcs teams can afford to move to 85, and G5s don't want to move down.
.

G5 wouldn't want to lower today - because they currently exist in a worLd where they see themselves competing with P5 schools.

Take that away - and add in the enormous cost issues many in G5 are dealing with - I think most would welcome a slight reduction.

[RichH2]

Holy Cross did it in 1991.
:)Tried to . Complained about it ever since.

[catamount man]

If the P5 want the complete breakaway then all P5 schools should compete against nothing but P5 schools and then let's see how SEC fanbases react when Alabama goes 7-4 and getting beat by Ohio State, FLA State, etc, etc year after year. They want it, by-God give it to them and let the rest of the football world return college football to what it truly is and should be, another integral part of the higher learning experience.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross did it in 1991.

And we still really haven't recovered as a program since....I think HC would drop football before going back to non-scholly.

[GoAgs72]

Another alternative was proposed by Santa Clara and UC Davis in the early 1990's - DI in all sports except football D2. When NCAA turned it down then Santa Clara dropped football and UC Davis ended up in FCS. D2 for football would be a big cost savings for many schools.

[DFW HOYA]

Another alternative was proposed by Santa Clara and UC Davis in the early 1990's - DI in all sports except football D2. When NCAA turned it down then Santa Clara dropped football and UC Davis ended up in FCS. D2 for football would be a big cost savings for many schools.

To be fair, Santa Clara didn't drop football because of this ruling.

D-II is a patchwork of conferences and participation by region varies greatly. I don't see many schools seeing this as a reasonable alternative.

[Go Green]

And we still really haven't recovered as a program since....I think HC would drop football before going back to non-scholly.

Sounds like HC has bad memories of those 48-0, 38-0, and 58-8 losses to Ivy teams in the immediate aftermath of dropping scholies in the early 1990s.

:)

[Sader87]

Sounds like HC has bad memories of those 48-0, 38-0, and 58-8 losses to Ivy teams in the immediate aftermath of dropping scholies in the early 1990s.

:)
More how the program (and support for the program) really cratered in the 90's and the 21st Century. I don't think there is another FCS program in the country that had fallen as much as Holy Cross did from 1991 (last year of some scholly players) to 2012 (last team that that had no scholly players).

[Go Green]

More how the program (and support for the program) really cratered in the 90's and the 21st Century. I don't think there is another FCS program in the country that had fallen as much as Holy Cross did from 1991 (last year of some scholly players) to 2012 (last team that that had no scholly players).

1991 is an arbitrary number, but if you want to compare early 1990s to the present, I'd say Holy Cross has had more success than say, Cornell. HC had some perfectly fine years in the Dominic Randolph era.

But for football in general, I'd say Colorado takes the crown for the furthest fall in that space.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The presence of the USNA's athletic director on the D-I definition subcommittee is certainly a positive thing for the Patriot League, but you wonder if FCS football is on the radar screen there at all. What's especially interesting in terms of the G5 is where schools like Army and Navy (and, to a lesser extent, BYU) fit into the new reality. The P5 make an exception for Notre Dame because of their link to the ACC in all sports but football. Do the P5 want Army and Navy to be a part of their vision in 2020?

[DFW HOYA]

Do the P5 want Army and Navy to be a part of their vision in 2020?

Probably not.

And it could be the P4 at some point, too.

[Laker]

Probably not.

And it could be the P4 at some point, too.

In your opinion, who would be the odd one out? The Big 12 or the ACC?

[Model Citizen]

Somehow, NCAA football survived through 1972 without any kind of playoffs. We certainly don't need 5-6 playoffs.

[RichH2]

IMO,there will be a lot of discussion in August meeting. An actual plan to implement now?
I would be surprised if there is. What might be the timing for any scenario to be implemented??

[CrazyCat]

IMO,there will be a lot of discussion in August meeting. An actual plan to implement now?
I would be surprised if there is. What might be the timing for any scenario to be implemented??

Maybe around the time that BSC commish. Fullerton suggested. 4-5 yrs.

[RichH2]

Maybe around the time that BSC commish. Fullerton suggested. 4-5 yrs.
Thank Cat. A lot of drama here for possible scenarios years away.

[TheRevSFA]

Playoff format you'd see more

This is all assuming conference alighment worked to the benefit of all schools and schools could keep other sports in other conferences if it wanted too...essentially "football only" conferences. Also schools that I think "could" afford it or would fake it till they made it - so to speak

Big Sky
Poly
EWU
Montana
Montana State
NAU
UND

Big South
CCU
Kennesaw State
Liberty

CAA
Delaware
Elon
JMU
UNH
Richmond
Towson
Nova - maybe?
William and Mary

Ivy:
Nope, but it might be enough to "spur them" since they'd be "bigger boys" now

MEAC:
Nope...still have their classics


MVFC
All of them? USD, WIU and ISUb are "odd ones out" in terms of money and resources but they won't be left behind

NEC:
No idea..I'm going with none


OVC:
EIU
EKU
JSU
don't really know about the others so I'm going no

Patriot
No idea

Pioneer:
Nope


SoCon
Chatty
Furman
Mercer
Samerford
WCU
Wofford

SLC
Same as non-playoff model.


What'st that give me? Roughly 40-50 depending on a couple factors.


I would assume anyone else that did this list is probably coming to 75-80%, minimum, the same teams.

Youd probably see SFA Sam and Lamar consider it. Maybe McNeese.

SFA and Sam tend to move together so one would pull the other

[lionsrking2]

Youd probably see SFA Sam and Lamar consider it. Maybe McNeese.

SFA and Sam tend to move together so one would pull the other

I think the entire SLC (perhaps not Nicholls and UIW) would consider it.

[pokefan02]

McNeese is already relying heavily on ticket sales and booster clubs , it would be hard to find the money

Sent from my HTC M8

[DFW HOYA]

I think some of this is wishful thinking. Hard to envision a scenario where teams like SMU and Marshall want to be at the same competitive level as Cal Poly and Stony Brook.

More than likely, the G5 schools would simply build another firewall around itself.

[RichH2]

I think some of this is wishful thinking. Hard to envision a scenario where teams like SMU and Marshall want to be at the same competitive level as Cal Poly and Stony Brook.

More than likely, the G5 schools would simply build another firewall around itself.
Yup,must maintain the pecking order,xnodx

[clenz]

I think some of this is wishful thinking. Hard to envision a scenario where teams like SMU and Marshall want to be at the same competitive level as Cal Poly and Stony Brook.

More than likely, the G5 schools would simply build another firewall around itself.
I agree, it's why I'm iffy on the vast majority of the 40-50 I listed. They are all WAY behind on facilities. However, they are quickly going to find out they are closer to us than the P5, especially if schools like BYU, Boise, Cinci, etc... pull away as well.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I agree, it's why I'm iffy on the vast majority of the 40-50 I listed. They are all WAY behind on facilities. However, they are quickly going to find out they are closer to us than the P5, especially if schools like BYU, Boise, Cinci, etc... pull away as well.

Dead on. I ain't wishful thinking anything with being in a group with the G5. It means nothing to me. Personally just fine with the contemporaries we have right now. I'd be fine with the G5 building a firewall. The line is so muddled between most of the G5 and the top of the FCS right now I just think it's gonna get looked at fairly good. The G5 still has money coming in from the P5 though so they won't be quick ot move unless something happens with that end as well....the CFP or whatever it is.

[lionsrking2]

McNeese is already relying heavily on ticket sales and booster clubs , it would be hard to find the money

Sent from my HTC M8

Probably not talking about that much more money in the grand scheme of things, comparatively speaking.

[TheRevSFA]

I think the entire SLC (perhaps not Nicholls and UIW) would consider it.

Nicholls uiw and HBU

I'm iffy on schools like acu and nw state

[Go Green]

In your opinion, who would be the odd one out? The Big 12 or the ACC?

Entirely depends on which of Texas or Florida State wants a new home first (if ever).

[Catsfan90]

FBS can go do whatever the heck they want to. As long as FCS and our current playoff system hangs around I'll be perfectly happy. It's not like anyone outside of FCS fans pay that much mind to this Level of football anyways.

If anything, I'd like to see FCS separate themselves even more from FBS.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

FBS can go do whatever the heck they want to. As long as FCS and our current playoff system hangs around I'll be perfectly happy. It's not like anyone outside of FCS fans pay that much mind to this Level of football anyways.

If anything, I'd like to see FCS separate themselves even more from FBS.

I agree with this. The problem is there's a few too many leaches at the FCS level that need FBS paychecks in order to run their athletic department. The Ivies stepping up and competing for a championship would help to strengthen the division. Unfortunately that's a dream at best right now...

98% of FCS is stuck where they are. To believe some of these schools have the resources to compete with the G5 programs as presently constructed is insane. There would have to be major changes in order for this whole subdivision blow-up scenario to occur. I don't see it ever happening due to the lack of teams to merge together. Montana, NDSU, Delaware and Liberty are the only programs I could see pulling it off right now.

[The Cats]

D1 Summit participants



NAME
POSITION
SCHOOL
CONFERENCE
ROLE


Stan Albrecht
President
Utah State University
Mountain West
BOG/DI BOD


Jonathan Alger
President
James Madison University
Colonial
DI BOD


Mitch Barnhart
Director of athletics
University of Kentucky
SEC
Chair, Competition Oversight Cmte, Council


David Belcher
Chancellor
Western Carolina University
Southern
Incoming DI BOD


Judith Bense
President
University of West Florida
DII
BOG/DII


Gene Block
Chancellor
University of California, Los Angeles
PAC-12
BOG/DI BOD


Frank Bonner
President
Gardner-Webb University
Big South
Presidential Forum


Bob Bowlsby
Commissioner
Big 12
Big 12
Chair, FB oversight Cmte, Council


Dean Bresciani
President
North Dakota State University
Summit
Presidential Forum


Robert Caslen
Superintendent
U.S. Military Academy
Patriot
DI BOD


Rita Cheng
President
Northern Arizona University
Big Sky
Presidential Forum Alternate


Christine Copper
Faculty athletics representative
U.S. Naval Academy
Patriot
DI BOD


Alan Cureton
President
University of Northwestern- St.Paul
DIII
BOG/DIII


James Danko
President
Butler University
Big East
Presidential Forum


Keith Gill
Director of athletics
University of Richmond
A-10
Vice chair, Council


Dan Guerrero
Director of athletics
University of California, Los Angeles
PAC-12
Chair, MBB Oversight Cmte, Council


Phil Hanlon
President
Dartmouth College
Ivy League
BOG/DI BOD


Dianne Harrison
President
California State University, Northridge
Big West
DI BOD


Sandy Hatfield Clubb
Director of athletics
Drake University
Missouri Valley
Chair, Strategic Vision and Planning Cmte, Council


John Hitt
President
University of Central Florida
American
BOG/DI BOD


Jeremy Howell
Faculty athletics representative
University of San Francisco
West Coast
Presidential Forum Alternate


Eric Kaler
President
University of Minnesota
Big Ten
DI BOD


Timothy Ladd
Faculty athletics representative
Palm Beach Atlantic University
DII
BOG/DII


David Leebron
President
Rice University
Conference USA
BOG/DI BOD


L. Jay Lemons
President
Susquehanna University
DIII
BOG/DIII


Jean Lenti Ponsetto
Director of athletics
DePaul University
Big East
Chair, DI WBB oversight committee, Council


Fr. James Maher
President
Niagara University
Metro Atlantic
Presidential Forum


Rod McDavis
President
Ohio University
MAC
BOG/DI BOD and Chair, Committee on Academics


Jack Miller
President
Central Connecticut State University
Northeast
Presidential Forum Alternate


Jane Miller
Senior woman adminsitrator
University of Virginia
ACC
DI BOD


Horace Mitchell
President
California State University, Bakersfield
WAC
Presidential Forum


Don Oberhelman
Director of athletics
California Polytechnic State University
Big West
Chair, DI Legislative Cmte, Council


Phillip Oldham
President
Tennessee Technological University
Ohio Valley
Presidential Forum


Dustin Page
Committee Rep - DI SAAC
Northern Illinois University
MAC
Council, Chair, DI SAAC


Daniel Papp
President
Kennesaw State University
A-Sun
BOG/DI BOD


Harris Pastides
President
University of South Carolina
SEC
Chair, DI BOD, BOG


Baker Pattillo
President
Stephen F. Austin State University
Southland
BOG/DI BOD


Steve Perez
Faculty athletics representative
California State University, Sacramento
Big Sky
Council, FARA President


G.P. (Bud) Petersen
President
Georgia Institute of Technology
ACC
DI BOD


Carol Quillen
President
Davidson College
A-10
Presidential Forum


Lori Runksmeier
Director of athletics
New England College
DIII
BOG/DIII


Greg Sankey
Commissioner
SEC
SEC
Chair, DI Committee on Infractions


Joseph Savoie
President
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
SunBelt
BOG/DI BOD


Bob Scalise
Director of athletics
Harvard University
Ivy League
Chair, Student-Athlete Experience Cmte, Council


Kirk Schulz
President
Kansas State University
Big 12
BOG/DI BOD Chair


Steve Scott
President
Pittsburg State University
DII
BOG/DII


Brian Shannon
Faculty athletics representative
Texas Tech University
Big 12
Council, IA FAR Chair


Cliff Smart
President
Missouri State University
Missouri Valley
DI BOD


Kendall Spencer
Student-Athlete
University of New Mexico
Mountain West
DI Board, DI SAAC


Samuel Stanley
President
Stony Brook University
America East
DI BOD


Harry Williams
President
Delaware State University
MEAC
Presidential Forum


George Wright
President
Prairie View A&M University
SWAC
DI BOD


TBD
Horizon League
Presidential Forum Alternate

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I think the three-subdivision model is awesome in a lot of ways but I don't see it happening. That train has been awaited at the station for 20 years now and I don't think it's ever coming.

Between the G5 gaining voting power in the P5 autonomy and getting considerably more (minus the AAC) in payouts from the CFP compared to the BCS I'm not seeing the fissure within the FBS widening.

From the fan standpoint, there's no difference in a P5 team playing Georgia Southern or Idaho State, but the payouts to G5s from money games aren't going down. Georgia Southern earlier this year finalized a deal to play Auburn - a team in a neighboring state - for $1.7 million. No FCS team is getting that kind of payday.

Like I said, I'll believe it when it's official and not coming from sports writers or ADs of schools with no interest in FBS.

[RichH2]

Agree. P5 doesn't care about any but themselves. Only push has to come from G5. Does anyone really think they will divorce themsrlves from P5 unless forced to.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

1991 is an arbitrary number, but if you want to compare early 1990s to the present, I'd say Holy Cross has had more success than say, Cornell. HC had some perfectly fine years in the Dominic Randolph era.

But for football in general, I'd say Colorado takes the crown for the furthest fall in that space.

Colorado had a longer run of success. The Buffalo era last from about 1986 until the 2001/'02 Fiesta Bowl. Colorado emerged as legit national title contenders following their epic beat down of Nebraska.

I'd love to see Colorado return to prominence. Folsom Field is an awesome an venue for college football. It plays great on tv. I grew-up an ND fan around the time Colorado got good under McCartney. I remember the '90 and '91 Orange Bowls. The latter still gives me nightmares. Darian Hagan, Biekert, Bieniemy, Ted Johnson, Renfro and Steed were all nasty players from the late 80's, early 90's.....

[bonarae]

FBS can go do whatever the heck they want to. As long as FCS and our current playoff system hangs around I'll be perfectly happy. It's not like anyone outside of FCS fans pay that much mind to this Level of football anyways.

If anything, I'd like to see FCS separate themselves even more from FBS.

But in the FCS alone there are several tiers that don't agree with each other:

1. Ivies and HBCUs that don't really care for the postseason (except for some players that receive invitations to senior-oriented "bowl" games.)
2. Struggling programs that require FBS paychecks to survive
3. "Dayton Rule"-d programs that are only add-ons to their (modestly) successful sports in their athletic program (e.g. Butler is currently in another major conference; however, Davidson is more notable for this, since they could've gone to the SoCon more easily when their other programs were there, just adding scholarships. Fordham, however, is a different story altogether, having left the PL in other sports back in the 90's but football managed to stay there and even affecting how that conference handles scholarships lately.)
4. "Normal" teams who aim for a championship in Frisco and are content with the structure of the FCS (e.g. NDSU, Villanova, Lehigh)


I agree with this. The problem is there's a few too many leaches at the FCS level that need FBS paychecks in order to run their athletic department. The Ivies stepping up and competing for a championship would help to strengthen the division. Unfortunately that's a dream at best right now...

98% of FCS is stuck where they are. To believe some of these schools have the resources to compete with the G5 programs as presently constructed is insane. There would have to be major changes in order for this whole subdivision blow-up scenario to occur. I don't see it ever happening due to the lack of teams to merge together. Montana, NDSU, Delaware and Liberty are the only programs I could see pulling it off right now.

My four tiers are at the first paragraph of this post. This quoted post can explain how my tiers are distributed.

The Ivies and the HBCUs (to some extent) not participating in the playoffs are leaving some fans (myself included) unsatisfied with the way FCS is currently being run, hence over the years, there have been shifts in geographic diversity in this subdivision, with many playoff participants in the past now gone or have moved up.

Take a look at D-III. Only one of 27 football conferences there do not play in the football playoffs (the Road to Salem). There has been great diversity in the number of playoff participants over the years (even MIT and Gallaudet, not normally powers in athletics, even played playoff games once in recent years, however, my Chicago Maroons have been constantly shut out of the Road to Salem whenever they have good performances, though. In addition, most years, the same two teams played for the Stagg Bowl, hence some D-III fans feel unsatisfied as well.)

As for the 98% fact, take a look at the consistent cellar-dwellers of the FBS G5, especially the Sun Belt and Conference USA (to some extent). They could've stayed FCS in order for them not to become laughingstocks of their athletic programs. Is the Sun Belt the PFL of the FBS? Surely, it is, but not quite at the level of the PFL.


I think the three-subdivision model is awesome in a lot of ways but I don't see it happening. That train has been awaited at the station for 20 years now and I don't think it's ever coming.

Between the G5 gaining voting power in the P5 autonomy and getting considerably more (minus the AAC) in payouts from the CFP compared to the BCS I'm not seeing the fissure within the FBS widening.

From the fan standpoint, there's no difference in a P5 team playing Georgia Southern or Idaho State, but the payouts to G5s from money games aren't going down. Georgia Southern earlier this year finalized a deal to play Auburn - a team in a neighboring state - for $1.7 million. No FCS team is getting that kind of payday.

Like I said, I'll believe it when it's official and not coming from sports writers or ADs of schools with no interest in FBS.

I agree with this stand from a fan of an ex-FCS school. We'll see when it becomes official, of what would happen to us remaining in the FCS... xchinscratchx xprayx

[PAllen]

I agree with this. The problem is there's a few too many leaches at the FCS level that need FBS paychecks in order to run their athletic department. The Ivies stepping up and competing for a championship would help to strengthen the division. Unfortunately that's a dream at best right now...

98% of FCS is stuck where they are. To believe some of these schools have the resources to compete with the G5 programs as presently constructed is insane. There would have to be major changes in order for this whole subdivision blow-up scenario to occur. I don't see it ever happening due to the lack of teams to merge together. Montana, NDSU, Delaware and Liberty are the only programs I could see pulling it off right now.

JMU, UNI, and a few others would also have a decent shot in a G-5 conference.

[clenz]

JMU, UNI, and a few others would also have a decent shot in a G-5 conference.
If I made a list, like my other lists, at schools who would have a legitimate chance to move and survive in the existing G5 it would be pretty small

Big Sky
Montana
Montana State

Big South
Liberty
I don't know enough about CCU to feel comfortable saying they could.

CAA
Delaware
JMU
Villanova - if they wanted to commit to it

Ivy
Don't know/don't care to know

MEAC
None

MVFC
Missouri State
NDSU
UNI
SDSU
YSU


NEC
None

OVC
Jacksonville State?

Patriot
None

Pioneer
None

SoCon
Chatty

SLC
I honestly don't know enough about them but they all seem too connected that if one moves they would have to bring others and I don't see that happening.


I'm at 13 and I was iffy on some of them. There are some others that might be able to do it - Illinois State/Southern Illinois but the IL funding is so bad right now there's no money...SIU is looking at a 44mil cut from their budget. A school like EWU might want to try but they don't strike me as having the ability to get the funding when push comes to shove, no matter the talk they put up.

[clenz]

D1 Summit participants



NAME
POSITION
SCHOOL
CONFERENCE
ROLE


Stan Albrecht
President
Utah State University
Mountain West
BOG/DI BOD


Jonathan Alger
President
James Madison University
Colonial
DI BOD


Mitch Barnhart
Director of athletics
University of Kentucky
SEC
Chair, Competition Oversight Cmte, Council


David Belcher
Chancellor
Western Carolina University
Southern
Incoming DI BOD


Judith Bense
President
University of West Florida
DII
BOG/DII


Gene Block
Chancellor
University of California, Los Angeles
PAC-12
BOG/DI BOD


Frank Bonner
President
Gardner-Webb University
Big South
Presidential Forum


Bob Bowlsby
Commissioner
Big 12
Big 12
Chair, FB oversight Cmte, Council


Dean Bresciani
President
North Dakota State University
Summit
Presidential Forum


Robert Caslen
Superintendent
U.S. Military Academy
Patriot
DI BOD


Rita Cheng
President
Northern Arizona University
Big Sky
Presidential Forum Alternate


Christine Copper
Faculty athletics representative
U.S. Naval Academy
Patriot
DI BOD


Alan Cureton
President
University of Northwestern- St.Paul
DIII
BOG/DIII


James Danko
President
Butler University
Big East
Presidential Forum


Keith Gill
Director of athletics
University of Richmond
A-10
Vice chair, Council


Dan Guerrero
Director of athletics
University of California, Los Angeles
PAC-12
Chair, MBB Oversight Cmte, Council


Phil Hanlon
President
Dartmouth College
Ivy League
BOG/DI BOD


Dianne Harrison
President
California State University, Northridge
Big West
DI BOD


Sandy Hatfield Clubb
Director of athletics
Drake University
Missouri Valley
Chair, Strategic Vision and Planning Cmte, Council


John Hitt
President
University of Central Florida
American
BOG/DI BOD


Jeremy Howell
Faculty athletics representative
University of San Francisco
West Coast
Presidential Forum Alternate


Eric Kaler
President
University of Minnesota
Big Ten
DI BOD


Timothy Ladd
Faculty athletics representative
Palm Beach Atlantic University
DII
BOG/DII


David Leebron
President
Rice University
Conference USA
BOG/DI BOD


L. Jay Lemons
President
Susquehanna University
DIII
BOG/DIII


Jean Lenti Ponsetto
Director of athletics
DePaul University
Big East
Chair, DI WBB oversight committee, Council


Fr. James Maher
President
Niagara University
Metro Atlantic
Presidential Forum


Rod McDavis
President
Ohio University
MAC
BOG/DI BOD and Chair, Committee on Academics


Jack Miller
President
Central Connecticut State University
Northeast
Presidential Forum Alternate


Jane Miller
Senior woman adminsitrator
University of Virginia
ACC
DI BOD


Horace Mitchell
President
California State University, Bakersfield
WAC
Presidential Forum


Don Oberhelman
Director of athletics
California Polytechnic State University
Big West
Chair, DI Legislative Cmte, Council


Phillip Oldham
President
Tennessee Technological University
Ohio Valley
Presidential Forum


Dustin Page
Committee Rep - DI SAAC
Northern Illinois University
MAC
Council, Chair, DI SAAC


Daniel Papp
President
Kennesaw State University
A-Sun
BOG/DI BOD


Harris Pastides
President
University of South Carolina
SEC
Chair, DI BOD, BOG


Baker Pattillo
President
Stephen F. Austin State University
Southland
BOG/DI BOD


Steve Perez
Faculty athletics representative
California State University, Sacramento
Big Sky
Council, FARA President


G.P. (Bud) Petersen
President
Georgia Institute of Technology
ACC
DI BOD


Carol Quillen
President
Davidson College
A-10
Presidential Forum


Lori Runksmeier
Director of athletics
New England College
DIII
BOG/DIII


Greg Sankey
Commissioner
SEC
SEC
Chair, DI Committee on Infractions


Joseph Savoie
President
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
SunBelt
BOG/DI BOD


Bob Scalise
Director of athletics
Harvard University
Ivy League
Chair, Student-Athlete Experience Cmte, Council


Kirk Schulz
President
Kansas State University
Big 12
BOG/DI BOD Chair


Steve Scott
President
Pittsburg State University
DII
BOG/DII


Brian Shannon
Faculty athletics representative
Texas Tech University
Big 12
Council, IA FAR Chair


Cliff Smart
President
Missouri State University
Missouri Valley
DI BOD


Kendall Spencer
Student-Athlete
University of New Mexico
Mountain West
DI Board, DI SAAC


Samuel Stanley
President
Stony Brook University
America East
DI BOD


Harry Williams
President
Delaware State University
MEAC
Presidential Forum


George Wright
President
Prairie View A&M University
SWAC
DI BOD


TBD
Horizon League
Presidential Forum Alternate





So the MVC/MVFC is represented by the worst AD in the MVC (SHC) who is at a school who is only D1 football because they have to be
The other representative is from a school that blames the MVC for it's lack of mens basketball NCAA bids and wants out of the MVFC

****ing great

[Bisonator]

Probably a stupid question but if it's a DI summit why are there DII and DIII reps there?

[UAalum72]

Probably a stupid question but if it's a DI summit why are there DII and DIII reps there?

They're affected if the NCAA revises the Dayton Rule, plus any D-II that wants to move up.

[Bisonator]

They're affected if the NCAA revises the Dayton Rule, plus any D-II that wants to move up.

That makes sense. Thanks!

[GoAgs72]

To be fair, Santa Clara didn't drop football because of this ruling.

D-II is a patchwork of conferences and participation by region varies greatly. I don't see many schools seeing this as a reasonable alternative.

I definitely remember this happening and at least Wikipedia agrees with me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_Broncos_football

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think some of this is wishful thinking. Hard to envision a scenario where teams like SMU and Marshall want to be at the same competitive level as Cal Poly and Stony Brook.

More than likely, the G5 schools would simply build another firewall around itself.

What possible firewall can they put around themselves if the P5 separate from them, though? Without postseason access to P5 also-rans, G5 teams are in the exact same boat as FCS teams - they're all just preseason practice for the P5 teams. The only thing that differentiates them from FCS is 85 scholarships and postseason access, and if there's no postseason access, there's literally no reason for them to keep sponsoring 85 scholarships.

Also, P5 can just ramrod their legislation through without a vote. Any legislation to separate the G5 from the rest of Division I would have to pass the entire D-I gauntlet, including the P5. In other words - good luck with that.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I think some of this is wishful thinking. Hard to envision a scenario where teams like SMU and Marshall want to be at the same competitive level as Cal Poly and Stony Brook.

More than likely, the G5 schools would simply build another firewall around itself.
Maybe I caught the wrong games with SMU but they have serious issues with crowds from what I've seen. Didn't look at the actual numbers but just haven't seemed to have much crowd when I saw them which was against MSU but still, very little.

You could be right about the two schools but the fact is Marshall averaged 27 K in attendance last year. That is what they were averaging when they were in 1AA if I'm not mistaken or it is at least very close. I am sure they see themselves as something else but if the P5 does do some separation then I can't see those sorts of numbers increasing which seems to look a lot their former 1AA selves...which was great, don't get me wrong.

Their own fan base doesn't view them as more than what they were at least in butts in the seats and considering they added 8K seats it must look worse now....still good but, ah hell, I'm just rambling. xlolx

[clenz]

Maybe I caught the wrong games with SMU but they have serious issues with crowds from what I've seen. Didn't look at the actual numbers but just haven't seemed to have much crowd when I saw them which was against MSU but still, very little.

You could be right about the two schools but the fact is Marshall averaged 27 K in attendance last year. That is what they were averaging when they were in 1AA if I'm not mistaken or it is at least very close. I am sure they see themselves as something else but if the P5 does do some separation then I can't see those sorts of numbers increasing which seems to look a lot their former 1AA selves...which was great, don't get me wrong.

Their own fan base doesn't view them as more than what they were at least in butts in the seats and considering they added 8K seats it must look worse now....still good but, ah hell, I'm just rambling. xlolx
Saving me from doing it.

Keep in mind Marshall went undefeated last season, right? They did that yet could barely crack the top 25, or outdraw their fcs days.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[BisonFan02]

Saving me from doing it.

Keep in mind Marshall went undefeated last season, right? They did that yet could barely crack the top 25, or outdraw their fcs days.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

There isn't a G5 school out there right now that NDSU couldn't beat...and they would be favored against a majority of them...with fewer scholarships. That being said, I would trade all of the non-scholly/non-power conference teams for the G5 in a FCS style postseason. Gimme a 16 team playoff with NDSU, Montana, Marshall, Georgia Southern, App State, Northern Illinois, etc.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There isn't a G5 school out there right now that NDSU couldn't beat...and they would be favored against a majority of them...with fewer scholarships. That being said, I would trade all of the non-scholly/non-power conference teams for the G5 in a FCS style postseason. Gimme a 16 team playoff with NDSU, Montana, Marshall, Georgia Southern, App State, Northern Illinois, etc.

NDSU would have a tough time with Boise State, Cincinnati, Navy, BYU, UCF, Air Force, East Carolina, Houston and perhaps this year, Temple. The MWC and AAC are still miles ahead of the SBC, CUSA and the MAC in terms of football AND basketball. The facility disparity among these schools is glaring.

Even schools like Toledo, Southern Miss, Texas State, Akron, North Texas etc. have superior facilities relative to the "power" FCS programs imo...

[DFW HOYA]

Even schools like Toledo, Southern Miss, Texas State, Akron, North Texas etc. have superior facilities relative to the "power" FCS programs imo...

Example:

http://www.ntmeangreenfootball.com/facilities.html

[Model Citizen]

Example:

http://www.ntmeangreenfootball.com/facilities.html

ND State has a fine football team, but they've spent a lot of time building facilities for D-II sports.

Bonus points for anyone who can guess the team in the dark uniforms (that's Charles Edward Greene, #75 in white).

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20973&stc=1



- - - Updated - - -


Example:

http://www.ntmeangreenfootball.com/facilities.html

ND State has a fine football team, but they've spent a lot of time building facilities for D-II sports.

Bonus points for anyone who can guess the team in the dark uniforms (that's Charles Edward Greene, #75 in white).

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20973&stc=1

[BisonFan02]

NDSU would have a tough time with Boise State, Cincinnati, Navy, BYU, UCF, Air Force, East Carolina, Houston and perhaps this year, Temple. The MWC and AAC are still miles ahead of the SBC, CUSA and the MAC in terms of football AND basketball. The facility disparity among these schools is glaring.

Even schools like Toledo, Southern Miss, Texas State, Akron, North Texas etc. have superior facilities relative to the "power" FCS programs imo...

Reread what I posted. NDSU COULD beat each of the schools you listed (and favored against most/all SBC/MAC/CUSA)...they've proven they don't shy away from FBS schools. Lately it has all been P5 schools as well since G5 schools are not even picking up the phone anymore to play. Also, basketball isn't relevant in a FBS/FCS football conversation other than conference bait and schools making "basketball decisions" and ultimately drop football in the new world proposed here.

[Hammersmith]

So the MVC/MVFC is represented by the worst AD in the MVC (SHC) who is at a school who is only D1 football because they have to be
The other representative is from a school that blames the MVC for it's lack of mens basketball NCAA bids and wants out of the MVFC

****ing great

Well, you got NDSU's president there too, so that's something for the MVFC.

[Daytripper]

NDSU would have a tough time with Boise State, Cincinnati, Navy, BYU, UCF, Air Force, East Carolina, Houston and perhaps this year, Temple. The MWC and AAC are still miles ahead of the SBC, CUSA and the MAC in terms of football AND basketball. The facility disparity among these schools is glaring.

Even schools like Toledo, Southern Miss, Texas State, Akron, North Texas etc. have superior facilities relative to the "power" FCS programs imo...

Look for SMU to quickly become a G5 power...

[Lehigh'98]

What possible firewall can they put around themselves if the P5 separate from them, though? Without postseason access to P5 also-rans, G5 teams are in the exact same boat as FCS teams - they're all just preseason practice for the P5 teams. The only thing that differentiates them from FCS is 85 scholarships and postseason access, and if there's no postseason access, there's literally no reason for them to keep sponsoring 85 scholarships.

Also, P5 can just ramrod their legislation through without a vote. Any legislation to separate the G5 from the rest of Division I would have to pass the entire D-I gauntlet, including the P5. In other words - good luck with that.

Don't the bowl games have anything to do with G5 not wanting to leave?

[parr90]

Reread what I posted. NDSU COULD beat each of the schools you listed (and favored against most/all SBC/MAC/CUSA)...they've proven they don't shy away from FBS schools. Lately it has all been P5 schools as well since G5 schools are not even picking up the phone anymore to play. Also, basketball isn't relevant in a FBS/FCS football conversation other than conference bait and schools making "basketball decisions" and ultimately drop football in the new world proposed here.


Yes NDST has beatn some D1 teams, and your teams from over the last few years could compete with many. But today you wouldnt be favored over Sunbelts ULL, App St, Georgia Southern, Ark St, or Conf USA's Marshall, LA Tech or AAC's Central Florida, Cincy, ECU and others of these types. ND may could beat some of these teams with the teams you have fielded over the last 4 years but thats about it. ND will drop of some sooner than later probably and whether you can sustain the type of winning and dominance over the next 5-10 years will determine whether your program, not individual team, could compete with the likes of those mentioned. I could go back and say GS's 99 and 2000 teams could have beat many D1 teams and be right! Right now you would be favored over several D1 teams. Looking at GS now compared to 2 years ago though is like night and day almost. The level of talent coming in is just better than it was overall, and last years GS team may be the best one we ever fielded. So it may look like teams arent as good but they are better than you think when trying to compare a great FCS team to them.

[parr90]

There isn't a G5 school out there right now that NDSU couldn't beat...and they would be favored against a majority of them...with fewer scholarships. That being said, I would trade all of the non-scholly/non-power conference teams for the G5 in a FCS style postseason. Gimme a 16 team playoff with NDSU, Montana, Marshall, Georgia Southern, App State, Northern Illinois, etc.


I would take that in a second Right Now. Georgia Southern right now would win that bracket no doubt in my mind.

[DFW HOYA]

Dropping the MAC, Sun Belt, or Conference USA's of the world to the Div. I playoff system is neither likely nor practical. Anyone for seeing Louisiana Tech playing Jacksonville in the first round of the playoffs?

[clenz]

Dropping the MAC, Sun Belt, or Confernece USA's of the world to the Div. I playoff system is neither likely nor practical. Anyone for seeing Northern Illinois playing Jacksonville in the first round of the playoffs?
NIU sans lynch isn't what you want to think

Also, no different than Montana /USD or a UNI/Jacksonville

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[SCPALADIN]

Even schools like Toledo, Southern Miss, Texas State, Akron, North Texas etc. have superior facilities relative to the "power" FCS programs imo...

True...but these schools have racked up so much debt trying to keep up with the Jones's. It's not a sustainable model...see Akron.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Dropping the MAC, Sun Belt, or Conference USA's of the world to the Div. I playoff system is neither likely nor practical. Anyone for seeing Louisiana Tech playing Jacksonville in the first round of the playoffs?

I really don't think you get what we are saying so I'll just say I agree that is not likely...cuz that isn't what is being said.

[clenz]

For those that think the MAC, and other conference like it (SBC and CUSA especially) here's an article to consider




http://www.nwherald.com/2015/07/08/ncaa-numbers-big-ten-mac-and-in-state-financial-aid-coach-pay-and-donations/ak8qvty/

Below is a list of financial data for NCAA Division I schools. Data is from schools' NCAA financial forms for 2013-14, acquired via public records requests. Additional data was added from the Department of Education.

Big Ten
1. Michigan: $19,564,771
2. Ohio State: $16,831,633
3. Northwestern: $16,255,877
4. Penn State: $14,679,249
5. Maryland: $13,290,307
6. Indiana: $12,823,202
7. Michigan State: $12,477,749
8. Iowa: $11,762,781
9. Wisconsin: $11,051,092
10. Illinois: $10,897,536
11. Minnesota: $10,638,107
12. Purdue: $10,745,166
13. Rutgers: $10,623,500
14. Nebraska: $9,531,229


Mid-American Conference
1. Miami: $9,434,519
2. Eastern Michigan: $8,010,230
3. Western Michigan: $7,664,804
4. Buffalo: $7,635,181
5. Toledo: $7,621,310
6. Northern Illinois: $7,409,545
7. Ohio: $7,174,844
8. Ball State: $6,998,305
9. Akron: $6,840,858
10. Kent State: $5,753,019
11. Central Michigan: $5,509,684
12. Bowling Green: $5,442,181


Other in-state
1. Illinois State: $6,008,915
2. Southern Illinois-Carbondale: $5,738,0540
3. DePaul: $5,432,812
4. Loyola (Chicago): $4,740,133
5. Illinois-Chicago: $4,156,713
6. Bradley: $4,034,821
7. Western Illinois: $4,024,001
8. Eastern Illinois: $3,811,133
9. Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville: $2,331,739
10. Chicago State: $1,879,541


Total coach pay (salaries, benefits and bonuses)
Big Ten
1. Michigan: $21,683,893
2. Ohio State: $26,429,182
3. Michigan State: $20,295,508
4. Iowa: $16,954,934
5. Penn State: $16,422,737 (only salaries)
6. Wisconsin: $15,931,618
7. Nebraska: $15,589,712
8. Indiana: $15,396,525
9. Maryland: $14,162,812
10. Purdue: $12,441,634
11. Minnesota: $12,137,176
12. Northwestern: $11,029,572 (only salaries)
13. Illinois: $10,785,235
14. Rutgers: $10,435,941


MAC
1. Akron: $5,625,976
2. Western Michigan: $5,601,833
3. Ohio: $5,365,095
4. Central Michigan: $5,343,876
5. Toledo: $4,966,892
6. Ball State: $4,814,904
7. Miami: $4,809,096 (only salaries)
8. Eastern Michigan: $4,335,236
9. Bowling Green: $4,168,964
10. Kent State: $4,143,917
11. Buffalo: $3,985,689
12. Northern Illinois: $3,936,014
Other in-state
1. DePaul: $5,775,566 (only salaries)
2. Illinois State: $4,342,044
3. Illinois-Chicago: $2,288,367
4. Bradley: $2,880,183 (only salaries)
5. Southern Illinois Carbondale: $2,806,704
6. Eastern Illinois: $2,718,577
7. Western Illinois: $2,544,896
8. Loyola (Chicago): $1,964,581 (only salaries)
9. Southern Illinois University – Edwardsville: $1,624,539 (only salaries)
10. Chicago State: $873,041 (only salaries)


Athletic contributions (donations)
Big Ten
1. Wisconsin: $38,456,619
2. Michigan: $35,267,267
3. Iowa: $30,356,325
4. Michigan State: $29,724,939
5. Ohio State: $28,201,658
6. Illinois: $16,909,059
7. Indiana: $16,792,186
8. Purdue: $15,281,636
9. Nebraska: $11,833,760
10. Maryland: $11,225,922
11. Minnesota: $10,332,287
12. Rutgers: $8,113,992


MAC
1. Toledo - $2,581,272
2. Ohio - $2,337,759
3. Akron - $2,076,146
4. NIU - $1,724,111
5. Miami - $1,615,928
6. Bowling Green - $1,452,756
7. Central Michigan - $1,253,633
8. Kent State - $968,748
9. Ball State - $697,601
10. Western Michigan - $618,220
11. Buffalo - $600,252
12. Eastern Michigan - $523,811


Other in-state
1. Illinois-Chicago: $5,579,898
2. Southern Illinois Carbondale: $2,772,329
3. Illinois State: $2,095,269
4. Eastern Illinois: $686,885
5. Western Illinois: $317,470


Schools like UNI, NDSU, SDSU, Montana, Montana State, Delaware, Missouri State, JMU, Liberty, etc... are every bit the equal of those when it comes to this side of it.

If you take the extra 22 schollarships out of their athletic budget (44 due to title 9) and bloat associated with trying to be FBS they are identical to the current set of MVFC, Big Sky, CAA, etc... most of those probably aren't even the "big boys" of the FCS

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the P5 schools decide they don't want to participate in bowls that involve G5 teams anymore, what happens? Do the G5 sue?

If the G5 doesn't sue, what do they do? Do they drop their football programs? Or do they join the existing FCS postseason?

[DFW HOYA]

If the P5 schools decide they don't want to participate in bowls that involve G5 teams anymore, what happens? Do the G5 sue?

If the G5 doesn't sue, what do they do? Do they drop their football programs? Or do they join the existing FCS postseason?

No G5 schools are dropping programs. They remain in the non-playoff bowl structure as currently constructed.

Now, what happens if a lower tier bowl offered a bid to a North Dakota State in lieu of playoff participation? Could they accept?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

If the P5 schools decide they don't want to participate in bowls that involve G5 teams anymore, what happens? Do the G5 sue?

If the G5 doesn't sue, what do they do? Do they drop their football programs? Or do they join the existing FCS postseason?

I think it's unlikely that a group will move down. There might be, might be, some meeting of the minds of the G5 and some FCS schools at some point in the future that would be beneficial to both gorups but I like things just fine the way they are now...and am very happy that Montana didn't make that move years ago as some had thought was the way to go.

[BisonFan02]

No G5 schools are dropping programs. They remain in the non-playoff bowl structure as currently constructed.

Now, what happens if a lower tier bowl offered a bid to a North Dakota State in lieu of playoff participation? Could they accept?

0.0% chance NDSU accepts. Now...when they weren't eligible in 2007....if they hadn't lost to SDSU in the final game, it could have been interesting.

[RichH2]

Interesting situation if P5,does decide to limit their bowl participation only to P5 opponents. What do G5and.bowl committees for the myriad non championship bowls do?

[Sader87]

It will be very interesting how this all plays out. The FBS model for many in the G5 seems unsustainable (see Akron and many others). But I also don't see many of them "dropping down" to the FCS after investing so much money on stadia, practice facilities etc.

Things probably won't change too much imo....lot of schools needed for all the bowl games for teams not in the FBS playoffs.

[DFW HOYA]

Things probably won't change too much imo....lot of schools needed for all the bowl games for teams not in the FBS playoffs.

There are 41 bowls in 2015, or 82 teams needed out of 127.

http://www.fbschedules.com/2015/05/three-new-bowls-approved-pushes-total-42-2015/

[Laker]

There are 41 bowls in 2015, or 82 teams needed out of 127.

http://www.fbschedules.com/2015/05/three-new-bowls-approved-pushes-total-42-2015/

Rewarding mediocrity. I suppose that the losers get some kind of trophy for their case back home.

Every game counts!

[RichH2]

So 3 tiers. for bowl season . Championship,P5 only and G5 for the rest with allowance for P5 teams not invited to any in the top $ to also take part. Could be just codifying what occurs now?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think it's unlikely that a group will move down. There might be, might be, some meeting of the minds of the G5 and some FCS schools at some point in the future that would be beneficial to both gorups but I like things just fine the way they are now...and am very happy that Montana didn't make that move years ago as some had thought was the way to go.

I like things the way they are too, no question. I just think that, if the P5 honestly does something thermonuclear like stopping/severely restricting bowls with G5 schools, the G5 schools will have little choice but to approach FCS about being closer together. Now if P5 and G5 still are interested in competing in minor bowls, nothing will change. But it's very unlikely the G5 could do anything about it from their side. In fairly large part thanks to the G5, the P5 now has autonomy, and it could very well be the P5 will use that autonomy to royally screw over the G5.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I like things the way they are too, no question. I just think that, if the P5 honestly does something thermonuclear like stopping/severely restricting bowls with G5 schools, the G5 schools will have little choice but to approach FCS about being closer together. Now if P5 and G5 still are interested in competing in minor bowls, nothing will change. But it's very unlikely the G5 could do anything about it from their side. In fairly large part thanks to the G5, the P5 now has autonomy, and it could very well be the P5 will use that autonomy to royally screw over the G5.

I don't disagree but not sure it's gonna happen that quickly is all. Unless they buy out the CFP payouts they got a while to go there. We'll know pretty quickly what pace will be set I suppose.

[Bisonoline]

I seriously doubt the P5 is going to eliminate their teams from playing in some of the lower tier bowl games that they already have a tie in. They arent going to let any other teams take their place. Too think the P5 is going to occupy every slot during the bowl season is delusional.

[walliver]

The bowl game situation will not change. Currently it is extremely rare for a P5 bowl-eligible team not to go to a bowl game. Other than allowing teams with losing records into bowls, there is no way to expand P5 participation. If G5 teams are excluded in any way, around 30% (+/-) of bowl games would be shut down.

In the end, the NCAA will have to find a way for G5 schools to reduce their budgets without really changing the pecking order.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The bowl game situation will not change. Currently it is extremely rare for a P5 bowl-eligible team not to go to a bowl game. Other than allowing teams with losing records into bowls, there is no way to expand P5 participation. If G5 teams are excluded in any way, around 30% (+/-) of bowl games would be shut down.

In the end, the NCAA will have to find a way for G5 schools to reduce their budgets without really changing the pecking order.

If 30% of the bowl are shut down, how does the P5 lose? We already know the NCAA doesn't care. In many cases, those P5 schools are at best breaking even on those bowls. There is precedent for P5 schools refusing bowl invites because the games would lose them money.

[Sandlapper Spike]

As long as there are bowl games for every eligible P5 school, the P5 conferences aren't too worried about how many total bowls there are.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

If the P5 schools decide they don't want to participate in bowls that involve G5 teams anymore, what happens? Do the G5 sue?

If the G5 doesn't sue, what do they do? Do they drop their football programs? Or do they join the existing FCS postseason?

I'm not sure why you think the P5-G5 bowl games are so vitally important. The Sun Belt and MAC don't have any P5 bowl tie-ins and I don't think they ever have. The AAC is the only league with significant tie-ins with the P5 but those are relics of back when the AAC was a big-time league and the AAC teams aren't going to have to worry about the loss of money anyways.

The most cash-strapped G5s are in the leagues without the bowl tie-ins and are more dependent on regular-season games with P5s, which as I mentioned the payouts for aren't going down.

[Catsfan90]

I'm not sure why you think the P5-G5 bowl games are so vitally important. The Sun Belt and MAC don't have any P5 bowl tie-ins and I don't think they ever have. The AAC is the only league with significant tie-ins with the P5 but those are relics of back when the AAC was a big-time league and the AAC teams aren't going to have to worry about the loss of money anyways.

The most cash-strapped G5s are in the leagues without the bowl tie-ins and are more dependent on regular-season games with P5s, which as I mentioned the payouts for aren't going down.

Whats the standard payout for those low level bowl games anyways?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Whats the standard payout for those low level bowl games anyways?

Not so long ago somebody (LFN maybe?) had listed the payouts for each bowl and I know that don't help ya but it wasn't much and considering the amount of money the universities are on the hook for it can actually be a pretty good money loser. See UConn a few yearrs back.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not so long ago somebody (LFN maybe?) had listed the payouts for each bowl and I know that don't help ya but it wasn't much and considering the amount of money the universities are on the hook for it can actually be a pretty good money loser. See UConn a few yearrs back.

I didn't but here they are:

http://www.statisticbrain.com/college-bowl-game-payouts/

Random sample (note: payout split between both schools):

Sugar Bowl: $18 Million
Outback Bowl: $3.5 Million
Sun Bowl: $2.15 Million
Las Vegas Bowl: $1,35 Million
Idaho Potato Bowl: $325,000

The bottom 13 bowls pay under $1 Million divided with both schools, so no more than $500,000 apiece.

[Bisonoline]

Not so long ago somebody (LFN maybe?) had listed the payouts for each bowl and I know that don't help ya but it wasn't much and considering the amount of money the universities are on the hook for it can actually be a pretty good money loser. See UConn a few yearrs back.

The linchpin is---how many people the school allows to go to the game on the universities dime. Band? Cheerleader? Staff? Families? etc etc.
Then you have the matter of tickets. You are responsible for X amount of ticket sales. But that can now be negotiated. Plus depending on the conference and the number of teams that go to a bowl game they will pool their money and any tickets not sold will be paid for by the conference. Which will also allow X amount of dollars for your trip. Anything over that amount you are on the hook for.

It can be a financial juggling act.

[Sitting Bull]

I'm not sure why you think the P5-G5 bowl games are so vitally important.

Because bowl games among fellow G5 teams are like participating in the CIT in basketball. They have zero interest outside the schools fans, no different than FCS playoffs except you have to spend a bunch of school money to play in neutral places like the Bahamas, Boise and Montgomery AL.

[Sitting Bull]

JMU, UNI, and a few others would also have a decent shot in a G-5 conference.

I think you are giving way too much credit to G5.

The CAA has done very well competing with the MAC as example, particularly considering they will always be the road team. I also remember Marshall moving from 1AA to the MAC and ran the tables there in their first year, something they didn't even do the prior year in the So Con.

If there's a line between FCS and G5, its a thin one. Face it, most of the G5 schools and programs look a lot more like FCS than the conferences they aspire to be in the same room with.

As far as activities schools may have to implement for some money - most FCS teams will generally schedule one FBS opponent and get a paycheck - though in fairness, they are usually games against a regional P5 program.

With the G5, these schools offer themselves up anywhere for the money, flying across the country for some of these mismatches - plus make ridiculous alterations to their schedules - Tuesday and Wedensday night games in empty stadiums - for additional revenue.

[MU22]

I think you are giving way too much credit to G5.

The CAA has done very well competing with the MAC as example, particularly considering they will always be the road team. I also remember Marshall moving from 1AA to the MAC and ran the tables there in their first year, something they didn't even do the prior year in the So Con.

If there's a line between FCS and G5, its a thin one. Face it, most of the G5 schools and programs look a lot more like FCS than the conferences they aspire to be in the same room with.

As far as activities schools may have to implement for some money - most FCS teams will generally schedule one FBS opponent and get a paycheck - though in fairness, they are usually games against a regional P5 program.

With the G5, these schools offer themselves up anywhere for the money, flying across the country for some of these mismatches - plus make ridiculous alterations to their schedules - Tuesday and Wedensday night games in empty stadiums - for additional revenue.

Marshall went 15-0 their last year in the SoCon.

I'd call that running the table.

[ST_Lawson]

I also much prefer the current model to most of the proposed ideas. We already can't keep up with a lot of our conference-mates in terms of facilities (and like most public institutions in Illinois right now, it's only going to get worse financially). If there ends up being a 3-way split, I don't see Western being able to pull together enough money to move "up" to the new 2nd tier with possible teams like NDSU, SDSU, IL State, MO State, UNI, etc. We'd likely have to step "down" to tier three and join a likely conference of the other former MVFC and OVC teams at the same level.

[Missingnumber7]

You look at what happens if a team makes the Idaho potatos bowl and lets say that they play a guarentee game with an FCS team but not with a P5 school. You could have a break even scenario. I think the best thing that might come out of this for the G5, and probably the worst for the FCS is some kind of limitation for guarentee payouts for playing games.

[DFW HOYA]

As discussed, it may be as simple as:

Power 5: ACC, Big 10+, Big 12+, Pac-12, SEC

Group of 8: AAC, C-USA, MAC, Sun Belt, Mountain West...plus Big Sky, Missouri Valley, and a splinter group from CAA and Southern

Playoff 8: CAA, NEC, OVC, Patriot, Pioneer, SoCon(+what's left of the Big South), Southland, and MEAC (Ivy and SWAC still out of the discussion)

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Because bowl games among fellow G5 teams are like participating in the CIT in basketball. They have zero interest outside the schools fans, no different than FCS playoffs except you have to spend a bunch of school money to play in neutral places like the Bahamas, Boise and Montgomery AL.

1. LFN was implying the loss of these games would mean financial hurt for the G5 teams that lose it. That's not true. I feel sure they lose money off of these games. G5s play these games to get on TV and pretty much accept that the money you get will probably be less than what your expenses.

2. Except for the access bowl, most of the G5s are playing sixth and seventh-place P5 teams for the most part. There's not going to be much more interest in these games than there is between two G5s. The fan of the P5 team certainly don't care that much about playing an 8-4 or 9-3 G5.

3. I like the FCS playoffs better than the lower-tier bowl games but the reality is crappy Bowl games are always going to take priority on TV over FCS playoff games.

[Yote 53]

I think NDSU would move up to the 2nd tier with or w/o SDSU or UNI.

The 2nd Tier of college athletics will be the ultimate landing spot for all the Dakota schools. Look at the spending on athletics infrastructure that is going on at USD and SDSU currently, and NDSU with the BSA (have you guys started that yet?). The first mistake the Dakota schools made was not going D1 when UNI did back in the 70's. The second mistake was not moving the NCC up to FCS en masse (which USD and NDSU both voted for). The third mistake was the Dakota U's not moving to D1 when the Dakota States did. There will not be another mistake made. I think every one of the Dakota schools understand where they need to be when all this shakes out.

All of the Dakota schools are positioning themselves for the next step. Yes, even USD. While the results on the football field haven't been good lately, hopefully that turns around, the money is being spent on facilities and every other athletic program is highly competitive now, both men's and women's. The basketball arena is halfway to completion, as is the track and soccer complexes. The final phase will be the renovation of the DakotaDome with grandstand seating on both sides which will close to double the capacity and an outdoor football practice facility.

I could envision some version of the MVFC ending up a second tier D1 football conference, maybe even all the schools do it as a group.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Unsaid in all this talk, but germane to discussions in other threads in AGS, is the importance of two things out of this meeting:

1. Clear definitions of the different divisions/subdivisions
2. A clear path of membership from one to the other that does not require conference membership

What I think is going to happen:

1. There will continue to be two subdivisions in Division I football. They will essentially be the P5, then everyone else. There will be no "tier two and tier three" - the second tier will continue to essentially be FCS, including most (if not all) of the G5 as it stands today.

2. The new subdivision will have overarching rules dictated to it by the P5 (scholarship definitions, limits, perhaps concussion protocols, etc.) but as for how the new subdivision will administer championships, that will be up to the new subdivisions. If they want to have bowls, the P5 won't disallow it. But the bowl relationship between the G5 and the P5 may be severely curtailed, or even eliminated.

3. The P5 won't make it any easier for new blood to come in and share their huge piles of money. So Liberty, Boise State, etc. will still not look like the rest of the new subdivision but they won't be able to crash the P5 either. So the new FCS will still look a lot like the old FCS, but with more very rich programs in it.

4. The P5 broadly wants the other subdivision to look like FCS, filled with programs that don't have as great a demand for siphoning off their money and don't really have an interest in crashing their bowl structure. What the P5 is really trying to do is to force the wannabes out of their playground. Once that's done, they really don't much care about how the other subdivision organizes its championships or what those schools do. The P5 essentially care about two things about the other subdivision: 1) keeping them away from all the bowl money and 2) having preseason opponents. That is the ultimate goal of this "reexamination of the D-I model".

[FUBeAR]

Unsaid in all this talk, but germane to discussions in other threads in AGS, is the importance of two things out of this meeting:

1. Clear definitions of the different divisions/subdivisions
2. A clear path of membership from one to the other that does not require conference membership

What I think is going to happen:

1. There will continue to be two subdivisions in Division I football. They will essentially be the P5, then everyone else. There will be no "tier two and tier three" - the second tier will continue to essentially be FCS, including most (if not all) of the G5 as it stands today.

2. The new subdivision will have overarching rules dictated to it by the P5 (scholarship definitions, limits, perhaps concussion protocols, etc.) but as for how the new subdivision will administer championships, that will be up to the new subdivisions. If they want to have bowls, the P5 won't disallow it. But the bowl relationship between the G5 and the P5 may be severely curtailed, or even eliminated.

3. The P5 won't make it any easier for new blood to come in and share their huge piles of money. So Liberty, Boise State, etc. will still not look like the rest of the new subdivision but they won't be able to crash the P5 either. So the new FCS will still look a lot like the old FCS, but with more very rich programs in it.

4. The P5 broadly wants the other subdivision to look like FCS, filled with programs that don't have as great a demand for siphoning off their money and don't really have an interest in crashing their bowl structure. What the P5 is really trying to do is to force the wannabes out of their playground. Once that's done, they really don't much care about how the other subdivision organizes its championships or what those schools do. The P5 essentially care about two things about the other subdivision: 1) keeping them away from all the bowl money and 2) having preseason opponents. That is the ultimate goal of this "reexamination of the D-I model".

Other than thinking the P5 just may take a few schools 'off the top' for reasons such as balancing their numbers, media markets, and/or they think they might be richer with them than without them (although Liberty will not be one of those), I couldn't agree more with everything you said here...and I couldn't have said it nearly as succinctly, that's for sure. I think you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!!

[Penguin Nation]

I would not be surprised if the Dayton Rule was modified to allow more flexibility, and the new Division 1 was comprised solely of P5 schools. This would separate the P5 from the inferior non-P5 programs in a clear and distinct way. D2 would be programs with a minimum 63 scholarships (G5 plus some FCS) whether or not FCOA is offered. D3 would be everyone else.

[bonarae]

I would not be surprised if the Dayton Rule was modified to allow more flexibility, and the new Division 1 was comprised solely of P5 schools. This would separate the P5 from the inferior non-P5 programs in a clear and distinct way. D2 would be programs with a minimum 63 scholarships (G5 plus some FCS) whether or not FCOA is offered. D3 would be everyone else.

For football only? It should be. But it's still wishful thinking at best.

[No_Skill]

The 2nd Tier of college athletics will be the ultimate landing spot for all the Dakota schools. Look at the spending on athletics infrastructure that is going on at USD and SDSU currently, and NDSU with the BSA (have you guys started that yet?). The first mistake the Dakota schools made was not going D1 when UNI did back in the 70's. The second mistake was not moving the NCC up to FCS en masse (which USD and NDSU both voted for). The third mistake was the Dakota U's not moving to D1 when the Dakota States did. There will not be another mistake made. I think every one of the Dakota schools understand where they need to be when all this shakes out.

All of the Dakota schools are positioning themselves for the next step. Yes, even USD. While the results on the football field haven't been good lately, hopefully that turns around, the money is being spent on facilities and every other athletic program is highly competitive now, both men's and women's. The basketball arena is halfway to completion, as is the track and soccer complexes. The final phase will be the renovation of the DakotaDome with grandstand seating on both sides which will close to double the capacity and an outdoor football practice facility.

I could envision some version of the MVFC ending up a second tier D1 football conference, maybe even all the schools do it as a group.

How can you say there will not be another mistake made when there is a clear historical pattern of mistakes? The Dakotas are not exactly known for their progressive thoughts and policies. Mistakes will be made...I just hope they aren't made by us.