Patriot League Redshirts

[DFW HOYA]

Scattershooting while wondering whatever happened to Alondzo Turner...

1. The link below says that redshirting is "specifically forbidden in the Patriot League." Two questions: 1) Is it really? and 2) Why? Does the league have a policy on using grayshirts or greenshirts for recruits as well?

2. Freshmen by roster: Colgate 23, Lafayette and Bucknell 24, HC 26, Fordham 27, Lehigh 29, Georgetown NA (yes, the only school without a 2015 roster posted). How do all these freshmen fit into the 60 scholarship rules?

3. If your school was offered a Tuesday or Wednesday game on the road versus a MAC team (Toledo, Ball State, etc.), do you take it?

4. I've only seen two PL teams with marching bands: Lehigh and HC. Any others?

5. Pre-season player of the Year candidate: Chase Edmonds. Don't see any others on the horizon.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/04-WhoWeAre.pdf

[bison137]

1. Actually it says "athletic redshirting" is forbidden. And yes, it really is. However injury hardship waivers are not forbidden, and many players at many schools (probably all except Bucknell and maybe Georgetown) over the past decade have stayed for a 5th year due to injuries or illness.

2. No way to know how the freshmen fit in. The only limitation now is that no more than 60 equivalencies can be given, so it would theoretically be possible for a school to have 30 or more equivalencies in the freshman class, especially if some players from the first two classes left.

5. Yes, Edmonds is the obvious preseason candidate - although several QB's could end up in the hunt.

[Go Green]

3. If your school was offered a Tuesday or Wednesday game on the road versus a MAC team (Toledo, Ball State, etc.), do you take it?



People on the Ivy board are speculating that the NBC Sports Channel package will require many Ivy "games of the week" to be played on Friday nights.

Obviously, the Harvard-Yale game isn't going to be one of them.

[UAalum72]

4. I've only seen two PL teams with marching bands: Lehigh and HC. Any others?
The other five have pep bands, some of which may play on the field occasionally but don't seem to do much marching.

[RichH2]

grey shirting was not an issue in PL prior to current roster caps. Under NCAA rules, a recruited player ,not under scholarship ,can be admitted and not count vs NCAA caps. He can get a schollie in Spring semester which will count vs the next year's schollie caps. The second rationale for this technique is to give athletes additional time to mature and adapt to their sport.
Will it be a stategy in PL. Perhaps but unlikely given the high tuitions.

[Lehigh'98]

Scattershooting while wondering whatever happened to Alondzo Turner...

1. The link below says that redshirting is "specifically forbidden in the Patriot League." Two questions: 1) Is it really? and 2) Why? Does the league have a policy on using grayshirts or greenshirts for recruits as well?

2. Freshmen by roster: Colgate 23, Lafayette and Bucknell 24, HC 26, Fordham 27, Lehigh 29, Georgetown NA (yes, the only school without a 2015 roster posted). How do all these freshmen fit into the 60 scholarship rules?

3. If your school was offered a Tuesday or Wednesday game on the road versus a MAC team (Toledo, Ball State, etc.), do you take it?

4. I've only seen two PL teams with marching bands: Lehigh and HC. Any others?

5. Pre-season player of the Year candidate: Chase Edmonds. Don't see any others on the horizon.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/04-WhoWeAre.pdf

Probably the why to no redshirting is because certain schools don't have grad programs and that it may give an unfair recruiting advantage to those that do. I'm no expert though I would have loved to play an extra year at Lehigh. Had you taken our 98 team and given the seniors 1 more year, we could have been a serious contender in 99. Oh well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Scattershooting while wondering whatever happened to Alondzo Turner...

1. The link below says that redshirting is "specifically forbidden in the Patriot League." Two questions: 1) Is it really? and 2) Why? Does the league have a policy on using grayshirts or greenshirts for recruits as well?

2. Freshmen by roster: Colgate 23, Lafayette and Bucknell 24, HC 26, Fordham 27, Lehigh 29, Georgetown NA (yes, the only school without a 2015 roster posted). How do all these freshmen fit into the 60 scholarship rules?

3. If your school was offered a Tuesday or Wednesday game on the road versus a MAC team (Toledo, Ball State, etc.), do you take it?

4. I've only seen two PL teams with marching bands: Lehigh and HC. Any others?

5. Pre-season player of the Year candidate: Chase Edmonds. Don't see any others on the horizon.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/04-WhoWeAre.pdf

1. Redshirting is "forbidden". However, when it comes to medical eligibility rules if a kid gets injured, IMVHO they have typically been granted. It's worth mentioning that almost all of the Patriot League players in the past ten years that have played in the pros have not redshirted or even injury shirted. Medical redshirts have ended up typically going to kids who didn't play professionally.

Also, FBS transfers upset this calculus. If they transfer during their redshirt year at an FBS school, they don't have to return it when they come to a PL school. So there are many, many ways around the rule.

2. Some might be offering beyond the 15 equivalencies theoretically allocated per class, but it seems unlikely. More likely partial scholarships may be spread around through the classes (which happens at all FCS schools, incidentally). Though the classes are fairly large, the scholarship classes are replacing grant-in-aid classes. It's probably temporary until most schools have four years of scholly players.

3. I don't think Lehigh takes that deal. If it's Army, Navy, Vanderbilt, Rice, Tulane... that's something they might do, one-time. But I don't think they would do that with just any old school. Every school might have different feelings on the matter, and I suspect the answer would be the same... it depends. If HC could only play BC on a Tuesday, maybe they take that. If it's Kent State on a Tuesday, I don't think they do.

4. Fordham, Lafayette, Colgate and Bucknell have pep bands. Lafayette's come to Lehigh for The Rivalry, but the groups from BU, FU, CU tend to bring a diminished band group, if any. Though it's not the only reason, it is a legitimate reason as to why fewer people show up at the games. If all seven PL schools had a full band that travelled to road games, it would improve the atmosphere everywhere.

5. IMO, Chase Edmonds probably should be the preseason offensive POY in the PL. CJ Williams of Bucknell or Pete Pujals of HC might also be in the mix.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I know Bucknell band alums who are bitter about the loss of the marching band. In my era they wore orange cowboy hats. What's to be bitter about, right?

[Model Citizen]

If the league allowed non-medical redshirting, would Georgetown do it?

[Bill]

If the league allowed non-medical redshirting, would Georgetown do it?

If a tree fell in a forest...

[Model Citizen]

Lol. Just wondering if either GU or the Hoya fan object to rs seniors on principle.

[DFW HOYA]

If the league allowed non-medical redshirting, would Georgetown do it?

No prohibition against it. Men's and women's track are the only teams that use it, however.

[Nova09]

Not gonna waste my time reading PL bylaws but I always assumed it was a prohibition against 5th year of eligibility, not redshirting. It would make absolutely no sense to "not allow" redshirts. Basically that means if you allow someone on the team you HAVE to play them. No coach's discretion to allow some good student with borderline DI skills to workout, contribute in practice, etc because if you don't put him in the games, you are then violating the redshirt rule. Better to just not let him on the team in the first place, even if he could theoretically earn playing time down the road. Also, what about players who quit? If they were ever on the roster but quit before competing, the have redshirt by NCAA rules. That makes it completely unenforceable.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To explain the redshirting rule you need to look at the definition of "college" and "university". A "university" is an institution with post-graduate courses - grad school, if you will. A "college" does not. So in theory a "college" has a built-in disadvantage to a "university" when it comes to redshirting since a student after four years would graduate, but then otherwise wouldn't be associated with the school except to play football. At a "university", they can still take classes as a grad student.

All FBS schools (even Boston College is considered a Jesuit University) are Universities with grad programs, so they can consider redshirting a given. However at FCS there are some colleges, including Lafayette and Holy Cross, that might be disadvantaged. That's why it hasn't got a lot of traction in the PL, I think, though Lafayette players have occasionally had 5th years of injury eligibility granted to some players (and taken grad school courses elsewhere).

I am not sure how Wofford handles 5th years, the only other FCS college (not university) that runs into this issue.

[PAllen]

To explain the redshirting rule you need to look at the definition of "college" and "university". A "university" is an institution with post-graduate courses - grad school, if you will. A "college" does not. So in theory a "college" has a built-in disadvantage to a "university" when it comes to redshirting since a student after four years would graduate, but then otherwise wouldn't be associated with the school except to play football. At a "university", they can still take classes as a grad student.

All FBS schools (even Boston College is considered a Jesuit University) are Universities with grad programs, so they can consider redshirting a given. However at FCS there are some colleges, including Lafayette and Holy Cross, that might be disadvantaged. That's why it hasn't got a lot of traction in the PL, I think, though Lafayette players have occasionally had 5th years of injury eligibility granted to some players (and taken grad school courses elsewhere).

I am not sure how Wofford handles 5th years, the only other FCS college (not university) that runs into this issue.

Except of course, the academies.

[RichH2]

Not gonna waste my time reading PL bylaws but I always assumed it was a prohibition against 5th year of eligibility, not redshirting. It would make absolutely no sense to "not allow" redshirts. Basically that means if you allow someone on the team you HAVE to play them. No coach's discretion to allow some good student with borderline DI skills to workout, contribute in practice, etc because if you don't put him in the games, you are then violating the redshirt rule. Better to just not let him on the team in the first place, even if he could theoretically earn playing time down the road. Also, what about players who quit? If they were ever on the roster but quit before competing, the have redshirt by NCAA rules. That makes it completely unenforceable.
No. 5th year seniors not uncommon in PL. The rule for us is that he could not participate in sport for reason specified in by laws,injury ,illness usually. Players who quit team do not qualify for a red shirt under PL ,regardless of NCAA rules.
Playing time is earned not mandated by any rule I've ever seen. A recruited player who fails to earn PT is not a redshirt as his eligibility clock under both sets of rules continues to run. Difference is other confernces permit coach to redshirt that player ,PL does not.

[DFW HOYA]

Getting into the weeds a little further, "college" can apply even to high schools (Gonzaga College in DC as an example) or in the British model where someone goes to "college" and then one goes to "university".

Realistically, a redshirt would stagger their courses to graduate in December, one semester late but allow for the 5th football season. It does not and would not require a graduate school admittance.

[RichH2]

Getting into the weeds a little further, "college" can apply even to high schools (Gonzaga College in DC as an example) or in the British model where someone goes to "college" and then one goes to "university".

Realistically, a redshirt would stagger their courses to graduate in December, one semester late but allow for the 5th football season. It does not and would not require a graduate school admittance.
True as to distinction between college and university but irrelevant in PL unless player qualified under current hardship rules.
Would be intersting,if PL ever decides to modify redshirt rules. Probably a requirement if PL really wants schools like Nova,W & M.

[Model Citizen]

To explain the redshirting rule you need to look at the definition of "college" and "university". A "university" is an institution with post-graduate courses - grad school, if you will. A "college" does not.

Hmm. My dictionary says "college" is just an organized group of people, such as the Electoral College. Googling "college of graduate studies" produces a slew of results.

[Nova09]

No. 5th year seniors not uncommon in PL. The rule for us is that he could not participate in sport for reason specified in by laws,injury ,illness usually. Players who quit team do not qualify for a red shirt under PL ,regardless of NCAA rules.
Playing time is earned not mandated by any rule I've ever seen. A recruited player who fails to earn PT is not a redshirt as his eligibility clock under both sets of rules continues to run. Difference is other confernces permit coach to redshirt that player ,PL does not.

A redshirt is a year in which one does not compete. It sounds like you are actually agreeing with me, what the PL prohibits is a 5th year of eligibility, not a year of not competing.