Where is Duquesne Going After 2007?

[Model Citizen]

The Dukes reach a crossroads with the MAAC after next season.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06313/736895-134.stm

Rumor is the Pioneer turned them down because the league didn't want to break up the MAAC, cause MAAC teams to fold, and harm the non-scholly playoff proposal. True?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This will make PL fans happy:


Amodio said joining the Patriot League, which provides more financial support to the players, has much larger budgets and more full-time coaches than the non-scholarship schools, is not a possibility.

"The Patriot League is looking for all-sport members," Amodio said. "That's not even on our radar."

I could see the PFL saying "no" to Duquesne in breaking up the MAAC, but I doubt the reason involved playoffs.

[aceinthehole]

How about this:

"With Robert Morris sweetening the deal through scholarships on top of grant-in-aids, that should make them stronger in the long run," Amodio said. "We could easily be passed by."

The Dukes could opt to go the scholarship route and join the NEC in football only, leaving their other sports in the Atlantic 10 Conference.

"That's something we might be interested in, but I don't know if they would take only one sport," he said. "That [scholarships] is an additional commitment because it involves Title IX and proportional scholarships. The Northeast Conference is losing teams, so it might be interested in adding a team."

----

IMO - the likely result will be that UA, CCSU, and Monmouth leave the NEC for fully scholly football. The NEC then takes the existing MAAC teams and remains a limited scholly league. The new MAAC programs will not be required to give schollys, but they will be at a competative disadvantage if they don't.

Northeast Conference
Robert Morris
Sacred Heart
St. Francis PA
Wagner
Duquesne*
Iona*
LaSalle*
Marist*
St. Peter's*

(* FB-only members)

I still think its questionable how long St. Peter's and/or LaSalle continues to field a team.

[DFW HOYA]

"The Patriot League is looking for all-sport members," Amodio said. "That's not even on our radar."

Still, there aren't any all-sports members looking to join the Patriot right now.

Down the road, that could be troublesome.

NOTE: "CS"? Might as well call it "Division I" because that's something people understand.

[Pard4Life]

As sad as it sounds and as much as I hate saying it... D3 makes the most georgraphic sense here.

If they are hesitant about adding scholarships to join the NEC, do you think a titanic travel budget to places like Jacksonville, Drake, and San Diego are going to be attractive? If you join the Pioneer, the cost-benefit in the long-run just might be add limited scholarships.

It is clear the MAAC is dead. Duquesne wants out... St. Peter's and LaSalle are at the bottom of the GPI again.. Iona lost to D3 Montclair St... Marist is really the only one that looks respectable.

If Duquesne does go D3, they would have local interest for sure.. Carnegie Mellon, W&J, and other western PA D3s... not to mention the Ohio teams.

But if Duquesne does join the Pioneer.... at least San Diego will have some real competition for a change. :D

[aceinthehole]

As sad as it sounds and as much as I hate saying it... D3 makes the most georgraphic sense here.

If they are hesitant about adding scholarships to join the NEC, do you think a titanic travel budget to places like Jacksonville, Drake, and San Diego are going to be attractive? If you join the Pioneer, the cost-benefit in the long-run just might be add limited scholarships.

It is clear the MAAC is dead. Duquesne wants out... St. Peter's and LaSalle are at the bottom of the GPI again.. Iona lost to D3 Montclair St... Marist is really the only one that looks respectable.

If Duquesne does go D3, they would have local interest for sure.. Carnegie Mellon, W&J, and other western PA D3s... not to mention the Ohio teams.

But if Duquesne does join the Pioneer.... at least San Diego will have some real competition for a change. :D

DU can't go D-III without dropping all programs to to D-III, including basketball. Basketball is the #1 reason why Duquesne won't join the PL for all sports.

The PL has some great academic schools that I'm sure the Dukes would love to be associated with, but for the time being the A-10 is superior to the PL in hoops (in terms of overall quality, history, NCAA at large access, budgets, recruits, facilities, etc). That is what is holding the PL back.

If the PL is looking for an all-sports member (with football), the only real options are: Marist and Monmouth and even Marist would think twice about leaving MAAC hoops (why, I'm not sure). I know most PL fans are not very excited about either of these schools, but ... it is what it is right now.

[Lafayette71]

It would take long for Monmouth to be competitive in most sports in the Patriot League and the geography makes sense. The only questions I would have is whether they fit the academic profile and whether they would be looking to make the move. I'm not saying that they wouldn't meet the profile, I am personally just not that familiar with the schools academic reputation. As for the interest, does anyone familiar with the school know if they are looking to make a move?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

IMO, Monmouth or Marist are not good fits academically. I think they would have to beef up their AI's significantly in order to "play ball".

What they are, though, are good fits athletically and geographically. Trips to Marist and Monmouth are no problem. I think both might need stadium upgrades, however.

[aceinthehole]

It would take long for Monmouth to be competitive in most sports in the Patriot League and the geography makes sense. The only questions I would have is whether they fit the academic profile and whether they would be looking to make the move. I'm not saying that they wouldn't meet the profile, I am personally just not that familiar with the schools academic reputation. As for the interest, does anyone familiar with the school know if they are looking to make a move?

I'll let MU fans respond more directly, but IMO they would almost 100% accept an all-sports offer to the PL.

#1 - Athletics. I do not think it would take long at all for MU to be competative in any sport in the PL. They (along with CCSU) are the cream of the crop in the NEC. They compete well in Football, M Soccer, M hoops, baseball. Athletics competativeness is not a problem at all - they can beat many PL schools in FB and basketball right now!

#2 - Facilities. They are decent, but not to the level of the PL. They are working to improve them. They have renovated Kesser with Field Turf, but it has a small seating capacity. They current have plans for a brand new 5K-seat basketball facility. It is awaiting local zoning approvals.

#3 - Academics. No question this is not a PL caliber school right now. However this is no community college. With membership in the PL and a commitment by the Admin, I think they could improve academics and selectivity to a level "acceptable" by the rest of the PL. Again, if you can take American, I don't see that Monmouth is that outrageous.

Bottom line, the NEC is a nice conference, but MU probably feels they have outgrown it. Look, Rider and Marist upgraded from the NEC to the MAAC for hoops, and I'm sure MU wants to do the same.

[Pard4Life]

IMO, Monmouth or Marist are not good fits academically. I think they would have to beef up their AI's significantly in order to "play ball".

What they are, though, are good fits athletically and geographically. Trips to Marist and Monmouth are no problem. I think both might need stadium upgrades, however.

I think Marist could push the the academic reputation. They are already decent, nice location, strong programs. The new stadium is coming. It's not overly large.. 2-4,000.. but G'town is in that range. It will have lights and a permanent structure. The present set-up is a joke really.. worse than a HS.

[carney2]

I am from Pittsburgh and have had a nodding acquaintance with Duquesne for years. IMO, a Duquesne without football would not cause too much concern among alumni and administration after the initial breast beating. If dropping football isn't in the mix of options, it should be.

[Pard4Life]

No way, this team made the Sugar Bowl in the 1930s. I hate when historic teams bite the dust.

[MplsBison]

Thank title IX for that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I am from Pittsburgh and have had a nodding acquaintance with Duquesne for years. IMO, a Duquesne without football would not cause too much concern among alumni and administration after the initial breast beating. If dropping football isn't in the mix of options, it should be.

I feel like Duquesne has done a better job of trying to support non-scholly football than most. I also think that if they decided to put some scholarships together, they could at least be a solid team in the NEC.

[carney2]

I feel like Duquesne has done a better job of trying to support non-scholly football than most. I also think that if they decided to put some scholarships together, they could at least be a solid team in the NEC.

No doubt. I, for one, doubt if the will is there.

[bison137]

Piggybacking on some stats that someone posted on the Navy board recently, here are the graduation rates, the acceptance rates, and the mean SAT for the current Patriot League schools, plus the ones mentioned in this thread.

Grad. Rate/Acceptance Rate/Mean SAT

American 71%/51%/1270
Army 82%/14%/1265
Bucknell 90%/33%/1320
Colgate 91%/27%/1355
Holy Cross 91%/48%/1260
Lafayette 90%/37%/1275
Lehigh 85%/41%/1320
Navy 86%/13%/1285

Fordham 78% / 50% / 1215
Georgetown 93% / 22% / 1390

Duquesne 68% / 80% / 1125
Marist 75% / 50% / 1175
Monmouth 53% / 69% / 1075

Marist clearly fares the best in these categories of the three candidates that were mentioned, although none of them seems to fit the PL academic profile very well. It's apparent that Monmouth would have a long way to go - it is not close to American at all, never mind the other ones.

[aceinthehole]

Piggybacking on some stats that someone posted on the Navy board recently, here are the graduation rates, the acceptance rates, and the mean SAT for the current Patriot League schools, plus the ones mentioned in this thread.

Grad. Rate/Acceptance Rate/Mean SAT

American 71%/51%/1270
Army 82%/14%/1265
Bucknell 90%/33%/1320
Colgate 91%/27%/1355
Holy Cross 91%/48%/1260
Lafayette 90%/37%/1275
Lehigh 85%/41%/1320
Navy 86%/13%/1285

Fordham 78% / 50% / 1215
Georgetown 93% / 22% / 1390

Duquesne 68% / 80% / 1125
Marist 75% / 50% / 1175
Monmouth 53% / 69% / 1075

Marist clearly fares the best in these categories of the three candidates that were mentioned, although none of them seems to fit the PL academic profile very well. It's apparent that Monmouth would have a long way to go - it is not close to American at all, never mind the other ones.

Great stuff. It is clear Monmouth would need to do some work, specifically increase the grad % to about 75, lower the accept % to about 50-60, and increase SAT scores to at least 1200.

That being said, I think MU could strive for that as a reasonable goal. However, its unlikely they could achive that without PL memebrship and the exposure it would bring. Marist is the better academic fit, but I'm not sure they are looking to leave the MAAC. Instersting delemia for PL expansion.

On a side note, I've read New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) a transitional D-I school without football would prefer PL membership over the AE, NEC, and CAA. Supposedly, their academics are more in line with PL schools.

[Go...gate]

Piggybacking on some stats that someone posted on the Navy board recently, here are the graduation rates, the acceptance rates, and the mean SAT for the current Patriot League schools, plus the ones mentioned in this thread.

Grad. Rate/Acceptance Rate/Mean SAT

American 71%/51%/1270
Army 82%/14%/1265
Bucknell 90%/33%/1320
Colgate 91%/27%/1355
Holy Cross 91%/48%/1260
Lafayette 90%/37%/1275
Lehigh 85%/41%/1320
Navy 86%/13%/1285

Fordham 78% / 50% / 1215
Georgetown 93% / 22% / 1390

Duquesne 68% / 80% / 1125
Marist 75% / 50% / 1175
Monmouth 53% / 69% / 1075

Marist clearly fares the best in these categories of the three candidates that were mentioned, although none of them seems to fit the PL academic profile very well. It's apparent that Monmouth would have a long way to go - it is not close to American at all, never mind the other ones.

And part of American's deal to get into the Patriot was to bring their profile into line with the rest of the conference ASAP. Marist/Monmouth/Duquesne would have to be prepared to do the same thing. :twocents:

[JMG1MON]

If the PL came calling, MU would jump at the chance. They are working on the academic portion (school is 10x better than when I went there {class of 2002}) and I suspect those numbers will grow closer to the rest of the PL over the next 5 years. As far as location and overall athletic department, MU is probably not terribly far off from being able to compete in the PL. I do think MU will look to move out of the NEC once the MAAC is built (if it ever gets approved :bang: )!!!!!

Is the PL looking into scholarships?? Monmouth will have 30 or more players on scholarship by then and I can't see them going back from the scholarships.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Interesting stats. If Marist has some way to get into the PL, you have to think that Monmouth or Duquesne would then have a long, long way to go.

An interesting addition to speculation on NJIT: a survey this fall (http://studentsenate.njit.edu/Feedback/Fall06/sophmorejunior.pdf) stated that the activity that NJIT students want to see the most is "football". Additionally, their main campus is close to the stadium of minor-league baseball's Newark Bears.

This sounds interesting.

[carney2]

If the PL came calling, MU would jump at the chance. They are working on the academic portion (school is 10x better than when I went there {class of 2002}) and I suspect those numbers will grow closer to the rest of the PL over the next 5 years. As far as location and overall athletic department, MU is probably not terribly far off from being able to compete in the PL. I do think MU will look to move out of the NEC once the MAAC is built (if it ever gets approved :bang: )!!!!!

Is the PL looking into scholarships?? Monmouth will have 30 or more players on scholarship by then and I can't see them going back from the scholarships.

Any of these 4 - Monmouth, Marist, Duquesne, and especially NJIT - would, in my opinion, send the Patriot League administrators to the bar for a shot of arsenic. Isn't Monmouth a state school? We tried that once. It doesn't work. If there's to be expansion of the Patriot League - and there must - this is not the direction to go.

As for football scholarships, our old friend Colgate13 (who we haven't heard from for quite a while) insists that they will happen "by 2010." The Colgate AD has already dropped the hint.

[Pard4Life]

Check the Lafayette voy board... NJIT would be nowhere near the profile of a PL school. They are even below Monmouth.. or thereabouts. They would never qaulify, and are more geared for the NEC.

[aceinthehole]

Any of these 4 - Monmouth, Marist, Duquesne, and especially NJIT - would, in my opinion, send the Patriot League administrators to the bar for a shot of arsenic. Isn't Monmouth a state school? We tried that once. It doesn't work. If there's to be expansion of the Patriot League - and there must - this is not the direction to go.

As for football scholarships, our old friend Colgate13 (who we haven't heard from for quite a while) insists that they will happen "by 2010." The Colgate AD has already dropped the hint.

No Monmouth is private. NJIT is public.

I agree Monmouth has some work to do to improve academics, but beggars can't be choosers. If Fordham or G-town would join as all-sports members you wouldn't have to consider a Monmouth or Marist. The fact is schools aren't leaving the Big East or A-10 for the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Grad. Rate/Acceptance Rate/Mean SAT

Monmouth 53% / 69% / 1075

IMO, this is more than simply "some work to do".

[maacfb]

im a marist guy and as much as I think the school has improved by leaps and bounds and that it will continue to do so I dont think they are leaving the maac anytime soon. it is a bball school first and foremost and for some reason they feel the maac is superior to PL bball, imo its a moot point as neither conference will ever put 2 teams into the NCAA tournament in the foreseeable future.

that said I dont think the school would have a problem meeting any standards the PL would put in place if both the PL and Marist wanted an all sports membership in the PL. also, its great to see they are finally putting in the stadium that they promised our recruiting class in 1999. it definitely shows commitment to the program and is a move in the right direction.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree maacfb. I think Marist is trying to get their team pointed in the right direction, and should MAAC football fold they would be a empting target for the PL. Marist has been improving on all fronts, but do still need to improve on all fronts.

[bison137]

Great stuff. It is clear Monmouth would need to do some work, specifically increase the grad % to about 75, lower the accept % to about 50-60, and increase SAT scores to at least 1200.

That being said, I think MU could strive for that as a reasonable goal. However, its unlikely they could achive that without PL memebrship and the exposure it would bring. Marist is the better academic fit, but I'm not sure they are looking to leave the MAAC. Instersting delemia for PL expansion.

On a side note, I've read New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) a transitional D-I school without football would prefer PL membership over the AE, NEC, and CAA. Supposedly, their academics are more in line with PL schools.

Here are NJIT's stats in these three areas:


NJIT --- 56% graduation rate / 71% acceptance rate / 1125 mean SAT score

[Go...gate]

Not a snowball's chance in Hell NJIT is in the PL. Right now, the way things are, I'm beginning to think we need to wait a year or two and see what the fall-out is from the CAA, Big South, etc. I'm still hoping VMI joins the PL.

[DFW HOYA]

Where does Holy Cross fit into this shift? Would an America East football alignment (Maine, UMass, URI, UNH, Albany, SB) hold any interest for them?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

At some point during the offseason, I'm sure I will revisit this more. But one thing is abundantly clear. The "perfect" PL schools are already there - private, super-high academic schools who want to play D-I sports and play for D-I championships (including the FCS). If the PL expands, it WILL be with some sort of compromise school.

Either the compromise will be on scholarships (breaking apart the AI/grant-in-aid model) or academics (taking a school with a mean SAT of 1100 rather than 1300). Unless something bizarre happens to the Ivy League (like H-Y-P deciding to go I-A, which I thought was ludicrous until I read the NY Times article interviewing those Yale folks who thought that going I-AA was a mistake) and Brown/Columbia/Dartmouth/Cornell were to miraculously become available, it will be a compromise choice.

[JoltinJoe]

Maybe I'm missing something but why does the PL need to expand?

If the PL made one mistake, it was denying Fordham's petition to allow basketball scholarships back in 1994. This caused Fordham to leave in all sports other than football. And the PL eventually allowed scholarships in sports other than football anyway.