NCAA releases requirements for "countable opponents"

[melloware13]

This is for the broader spectrum, as to whether they count. Basic rules are needs to be 4 year degree granting institution with interscholastic athletics. Davidson's lone 2014 win would be off the books now.

http://content.ncaa.org/ncaa-media-services/Definition.pdf

[Lehigh Football Nation]

VUL is one of the schools listed that are no longer "countable opponents". I think at least one FCS school has them on the schedule this year.

Does this invalidate prior games played against them?

[Pinnum]

Add Alcorn State, Jackson State, Gardner-Webb and St Francis to the list of teams with non-countable wins last year. They all played Virginia University at Lynchburg.

I think there are other FCS teams playing them this year.

[Missingnumber7]

There are 3 College/Univirsity of Faiths...who knew.

[kdinva]

There are 3 College/Univirsity of Faiths...who knew.

Davidson.....xcoffeex

[Pinnum]

At least two games for this year.

http://tsusports.com/schedule.aspx?path=football
http://www.valpoathletics.com/football/schedule/#.VWjEW_dFAdU
http://www.gofaithwarriors.com/football.html
(http://www.gofaithwarriors.com/football.html)
I seem to recall hearing there were more than the three schools and would be a few more this year. I think they are looking to start their own league and I know they are expanding into other sport.

[ETSUfan1]

ETSU needs to drop these College of Faith clowns. You can't even count them on the record!

[bonarae]

For the future years, filling up schedules with the right number of games are going to be even tougher. How this will impact the Ivies if ever they will expand schedules?

[Go...gate]

For the future years, filling up schedules with the right number of games are going to be even tougher. How this will impact the Ivies if ever they will expand schedules?

They can resume playing Patriot League schools such as Colgate. Just sayin'.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

They can resume playing Patriot League schools such as Colgate. Just sayin'.

or Bucknell... (justsayin')

[walliver]

For most of the schools playing these "institutions", "countable" games are irrelevant, so this NCAA ruling is a whole lot of nothing.

[dgtw]

Glad the NCAA is trying to stop this. But some teams are desperate for a win, so they may play them anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pinnum]

They are scrimmages when they are not a countable event.

[Libertine]

For most of the schools playing these "institutions", "countable" games are irrelevant, so this NCAA ruling is a whole lot of nothing.

To a point, yes. However, until now, stats and win/loss records gained against these Scrub U's were just as legit in the record books as any other game. That's the significant change here.

Examples: Davidson beat the NC franchise of the College of Faith 56-0, snapping a 12-game losing streak. Davidson was officially 1-11 on the year, scored an average of 23.25 points per game and the head coach's record stands at 1-22 in two seasons. Take away those stats and Davidson was 0-11, scored an average of 20.27 points per game and the head coach's record is 0-23 in his two seasons. Also, Davidson would now be staring down the barrel of a 24-game losing streak.
Further, I watched last year's Gardner-Webb game against Virginia U-Lynchburg, a program that I know for a fact did not have any football helmets as of three weeks before this game was played. It was obvious from the outset that VU-L had no business being on the field with a full-scholarship FCS program. Actually, I should say I watched most of the game since the officials and coaches got together and called the game off after three quarters with GW up 34-0. Even with a shortened contest against a vastly inferior opponent, all records and statistics that GW earned in the game were counted as official for NCAA purposes.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

It is hard to believe that anything other than an NCAA rule would cause Davidson to do much for its football program and its schedule. The difference between 1-22 and 0-23 is imperceptible at any distance, other than wondering who were those poor suckers who lost to D1's most neglected football program.

[DFW HOYA]

The difference between 1-22 and 0-23 is imperceptible at any distance, other than wondering who were those poor suckers who lost to D1's most neglected football program.

Neglected may be an overstatement, but Davidson is not a good fit in the Pioneer.

While the PFL schools do not offer athletic aid in football, Davidson is the only school in the Pioneer that does not offer merit awards to football prospects at admission (athletic aid or otherwise). Davidson is one of just 10 schools in I-AA that do not allow this.

The others? Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton, Yale, and Georgetown.

[Libertine]

It is hard to believe that anything other than an NCAA rule would cause Davidson to do much for its football program and its schedule. The difference between 1-22 and 0-23 is imperceptible at any distance, other than wondering who were those poor suckers who lost to D1's most neglected football program.

Davidson was just the first example that came to mind; I wasn't citing them as the reason for the rule change. I could have plugged Alcorn, Jackson St, Gardner-Webb, et al., in there to the same effect. The point of the rule is that there will be no more record-breaking performances against one of these teams and rightly so.

[Model Citizen]

For the future years, filling up schedules with the right number of games are going to be even tougher. How this will impact the Ivies if ever they will expand schedules?

Good point. Over and over, I see posts on this board saying, "I'm glad my school doesn't schedule the Ivy League." ...and... "Harvard has been begging us for a game AGAIN. Why can't they leave us alone?"

[813Jag]

Sadly we gave up more points to Alcorn than VUL. That of course doesn't change the fact that these games shouldn't be played. This thread just brought back a dark memory.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Does this decision really have any meaning at the FCS level?

These games will likely be replaced by NAIA, D-II, or D-III games anyway. So Webb's win over VUL is erased from the "official" W-L record and the fourth-string RB's 100 yard game comes off the books. It doesn't really affect much in a practical sense, only if the stats of one of those games were record-breaking in some way.

Some schools will have to try a bit harder to get NCAA games to replace the VULs of the world, but I'm betting it won't be that hard.

[Model Citizen]

Some schools will have to try a bit harder to get NCAA games to replace the VULs of the world, but I'm betting it won't be that hard.

This is true. Schools such as Haskell Indian Nations (NAIA) can seldom find more than nine games a year. Obviously, this isn't just about finding a patsy; it's about finding a nearby patsy willing to play for gas money.

[bonarae]

For most of the schools playing these "institutions", "countable" games are irrelevant, so this NCAA ruling is a whole lot of nothing.

Not exactly, for some cases only.


Glad the NCAA is trying to stop this. But some teams are desperate for a win, so they may play them anyway.

OK, next post...


They are scrimmages when they are not a countable event.

The Ivies hold scrimmages against each other and against D-III's. This, however, should be stopped for Ivy football to move on to the 21st century.


It is hard to believe that anything other than an NCAA rule would cause Davidson to do much for its football program and its schedule. The difference between 1-22 and 0-23 is imperceptible at any distance, other than wondering who were those poor suckers who lost to D1's most neglected football program.

Hmm, shall I start a post in the Smack thread regarding Davidson FB?


Neglected may be an overstatement, but Davidson is not a good fit in the Pioneer.

While the PFL schools do not offer athletic aid in football, Davidson is the only school in the Pioneer that does not offer merit awards to football prospects at admission (athletic aid or otherwise). Davidson is one of just 10 schools in I-AA that do not allow this.

The others? Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton, Yale, and Georgetown.

That's why you stated that those 10 should be in one conference altogether. Or the 2 non-Ivies should consider stopping FB. xsmhx


Good point. Over and over, I see posts on this board saying, "I'm glad my school doesn't schedule the Ivy League." ...and... "Harvard has been begging us for a game AGAIN. Why can't they leave us alone?"

I usually don't read those threads. Where were those threads located in this board? The MVFC boards? Or the PL ones?

That said, one of the reasons I now cheer for ETSU in addition to Harvard is the former's potential for the playoffs after this season (they play both non-countable for playoff and non-countable at all opponents this season.) I'm already tired of the Ivies' dragging themselves towards the NESCAC of the FCS. xbawlingx


Some schools will have to try a bit harder to get NCAA games to replace the VULs of the world, but I'm betting it won't be that hard.

Now, the question is, how will the FCS teams playing non-counter games be replacing those games? NAIA is a good place to start with... xcoffeex

[DFW HOYA]

That's why you stated that those 10 should be in one conference altogether. Or the 2 non-Ivies should consider stopping FB. xsmhx


Wait a minute, I thought Harvard was in a league of its own?

[bonarae]

Wait a minute, I thought Harvard was in a league of its own?

Yes, but not quite. They should be in the playoffs to begin with, but they and the other 7 schools' administrations say no. xsmhx

[Libertine]

Some schools will have to try a bit harder to get NCAA games to replace the VULs of the world, but I'm betting it won't be that hard.

Actually, it could be extremely difficult. Every non-conference game in the country is scheduled through contract negotiations and, when buying a home game against a low division opponent, a program that is already cash-strapped is going to have a whole lot less negotiating power. Further, the more it costs for the low division opponent to get to you, the less inclined they will be to take lowball offers. The rash of "starter" programs, that are now non-countable, have actually been wonderful for some established programs since those teams were willing to go anywhere and play anyone for roughly the cost of some shoulder pads and a large sandwich in order to get their program going. Further, there was minimal risk of the home team actually losing the game.

Also, in fairness, there should be some kind of distinction -- at least, for the sake of discussion -- between the VUL's of the world and the CoF's of the world. VUL has been an actual functioning institution of higher learning for over a century that started a football program in order to get enrollment up. The C/U of Faith franchises appear to have been specifically started in order to field teams and make a quick buck off of college athletics. Obviously, that makes no difference to the NCAA but I feel like it should to someone.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Over the years I haven't had any issues with schools like VUL, CoF or anyone starting a football program and trying to build it up. My philosophy has been the more football there is, the better. When I did my FCS scoreboards I happily looked around for a VUL logo to put alongside Gardner-Webb's, NCAT, or whomever else played them. You just needed to be careful not to read too far into the 55-0 scorelines against them.

I agree the CoF's are different than the VUL's of the world, but I do have a question - why doesn't VUL simply apply for NAIA membership? The barrier to NAIA membership (by design) is less stringent than NCAA membership, and games against NAIA schools still count, and will continue to count.

[Libertine]

I agree in large part. More football is always better and I don't mind NCAA schools scheduling these programs. I do, however, think it's good that the NCAA is ruling that these are, essentially, scrimmages and won't count for stats or records since scrimmages is really what these games are.


why doesn't VUL simply apply for NAIA membership?

I would guess the first and biggest hurdle is membership dues. VUL is deep deep deep deep in the red. VUL had around 100 students in 2011 and specifically instituted football to bring up enrollment. To that end, it's been successful as they're now around 300-400 students but they've taken on a lot of risky enrollments as well as borrowing money to provide resources for the student influx. Football is pretty much the only thing keeping the doors open there. Since starting their program in 2011, VUL has been forced from NCAA D2 (2011) to USCAA (2012-2013) to being a "freelance" program (2014-present), largely due to financial issues. They can't maintain NCAA-mandated standards and didn't pay their USCAA membership dues for either year they were a member -- USCAA membership is $4,500 annually. Last July, a creditor seized a VUL-rented warehouse for non-payment and, unfortunately, that warehouse happened to be where VUL's football equipment had been stored. They went through all of training camp in shorts and t-shirts and were begging area high schools to borrow equipment just so that they could actually play their games and collect the guarantee checks.

[NDSUKurt]

I don't think this new list of requirements will change too much for some of the schools that have been scheduling these "programs" in the past.

When was the last time that a FCS team with SERIOUS aspirations to make the playoffs actually scheduled one of these "programs"? Serious schools from the big conferences will never schedule these non-counters. (I mean Missouri Valley, Big Sky, Southland, Colonial).

Schools that know they do not have a shot to make the playoffs but still pull in decent money from home games may play these "programs" and pocket the money as a great payday.

FCS programs are required to host "only" 4 home games per season. There have been schools in the past few seasons that have scheduled only 10 games that count towards records, statistics, and playoffs. Alcorn State, Tennessee State, and Savannah State (2015), Prairie View A&M (2014). There is nothing stopping these schools from scheduling 10 counter games (or 11 in seasons when 12 are allowed) and then scheduling one of these non-counter programs as a home scrimmage in order to pocket the cash.

[DFW HOYA]

FCS programs are required to host "only" 4 home games per season. There have been schools in the past few seasons that have scheduled only 10 games that count towards records, statistics, and playoffs. Alcorn State, Tennessee State, and Savannah State (2015), Prairie View A&M (2014). There is nothing stopping these schools from scheduling 10 counter games (or 11 in seasons when 12 are allowed) and then scheduling one of these non-counter programs as a home scrimmage in order to pocket the cash.

I'm not aware of a minimum home game requirement, but the schools must play at least half its schedule against I-AA schools.

[Hammersmith]

I'm not aware of a minimum home game requirement, but the schools must play at least half its schedule against FBS or FCS schools.

Fixed. I also couldn't find anything about a minimum number of FCS home games.

[NDSUKurt]

I'm not aware of a minimum home game requirement, but the schools must play at least half its schedule against I-AA schools.

I thought I read something somewhere that said FBS schools must play 5 home games and FCS must play 4 home games every year. I will look to see if I can find it.

[UAalum72]

FCS must play at least nine games with half against Division I. Didn't an HBCU play only three home games one recent year?

edit: Savannah St. only played two at home in 2010 when they were indy.

[Hammersmith]

I thought I read something somewhere that said FBS schools must play 5 home games and FCS must play 4 home games every year. I will look to see if I can find it.

Pg. 356 of the 2014-15 DI manual is a quick, easy look at the requirements.

[DFW HOYA]

Maybe Davidson had another non-countable opponent on the schedule. From Football Scoop (credit Big Green Alert for noting it):

"Davidson is looking for a D-III game in 2016. We will either pay a guarantee or play a home and home…dates available are September 3rd, 17th & November 12th 2016."

http://footballscoop.com/the-scoop/page/4/

[clenz]

home and home with a d3? There's a 98% chance that the D3 has a nicer stadium...

Is football worth the effort for them anymore?

[hebmskebm]

home and home with a d3? There's a 98% chance that the D3 has a nicer stadium...

Is football worth the effort for them anymore?

They honestly seem like an ideal candidate for sprint football. They could play a schedule that includes three Ivies and the service academies every year which I'm sure would appeal to them big time. All the while keeping at least some version of the game on campus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_football

[bonarae]

Is football worth the effort for them anymore?

I am asking the same question, but I deliberately placed my thoughts in the Smack board of this forum. Their program is a real embarrassment to FCS. xsmhx

- - - Updated - - -


They honestly seem like an ideal candidate for sprint football. They could play a schedule that includes three Ivies and the service academies every year which I'm sure would appeal to them big time. All the while keeping at least some version of the game on campus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_football

Yes, I think Sprint football is a better option for them, though not too many choices await them if they choose to convert their football program to that.

[clenz]

I am asking the same question, but I deliberately placed my thoughts in the Smack board of this forum. Their program is a real embarrassment to FCS. xsmhx

It's not just them.

I know LFN wants to think that without football your university/college is worthless but there are many places that football just isn't worth the money, time and investment to the school.

There are a lot of schools, that if they were completely honest with themselves and looked at things from a bit of an "outsider view" would agree that football just isn't actually worth it.

The only reason it's kept is because it's the new "America's game" and because they want to avoid the press of being the next program shut down. I look at the PFL and see universities that don't want to invest in football, and in many cases essentially refuse to admit it exists on campus.

Looking at it from the standpoint of someone who is a fan of a universities that operates on an extremely tight budget, and does more with less than pretty much anyone in the nation, I struggle to see how operating teams like that is a good ROI.

To each their own when it comes to this though, I guess

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's not just them.

I know LFN wants to think that without football your university/college is worthless but there are many places that football just isn't worth the money, time and investment to the school.

There are a lot of schools, that if they were completely honest with themselves and looked at things from a bit of an "outsider view" would agree that football just isn't actually worth it.

The only reason it's kept is because it's the new "America's game" and because they want to avoid the press of being the next program shut down. I look at the PFL and see universities that don't want to invest in football, and in many cases essentially refuse to admit it exists on campus.

Looking at it from the standpoint of someone who is a fan of a universities that operates on an extremely tight budget, and does more with less than pretty much anyone in the nation, I struggle to see how operating teams like that is a good ROI.

To each their own when it comes to this though, I guess

You're assuming at these places it's about ROI in terms of money instead of in terms of experience for the kids, students, alumni, teaching, etc. You sound like John Silber with his litmus test that football has to be a "money-making" program, as if that's the main function of the team.

[bonarae]

LFN, I'm thinking that many schools who drop football won't bring it back despite having traditions of it in their history. (see Pacific and the Cal State schools)

BU and Northeastern didn't have much of a football past... correct me if I'm wrong? Hofstra was a good program that was spurned away suddenly, as did Chicago back in the 1930's (when Chicago brought back football in 1969, it was worlds apart from what their former opponents' programs were at that time, and even further today.)

ETSU and New Haven's past presidents made mistakes regarding football that cost some of their reputation, but the current leadership brought the sport back. (See also UAB, but the board that governs them pulled the plug, not the president.)

[Pinnum]

I actually know Davidson fairly well (compared to many programs) since I have a good friend that played there and is close to the program.

I am told the PFL is a great fit for the school and that the alumni actually take pride in the Ivy model they use. (A good portion of their students were also accepted to Ivy League schools.) Additionally, the program pays for itself. The sport generates donations that permeate through the campus and while they could move to a scholarship system there is no belief that it will generate any more interest from the student body (it is a very small student body with over five percent of the student body being on the football roster) and there is no reason to believe that an increase in on the field performance will increase donations or fan attendance to games since they already draw double their student body in attendance.

For Davidson, sports are part of the offering for students with a quarter of their students being varsity athletes. They offer many more sports than would be expected of a D1 school their size and rigor. They are offering football for their students and not in a race to the bottom by wasting resources on a program. Davidson is doing it right.

If you actually believe that FCS football, or more generally, college football has value then Davidson is no different. If you only think that there is value in constantly spending money to chase conference titles and national recognition then you'll find more attrition of FCS programs in the future.

[Pinnum]

You're assuming at these places it's about ROI in terms of money instead of in terms of experience for the kids, students, alumni, teaching, etc. You sound like John Silber with his litmus test that football has to be a "money-making" program, as if that's the main function of the team.

It is not a question of making money but rather putting a value on the experience. A football program will cost money. Some programs can recoup it and others can justify the spending but it is different for each school. One school might peg the football value at a $500,000 loss a year while another might peg the value at $2MM loss a year. Anything over their peg might be viewers as a drain on resources at a level greater than the program's value. But each school has their own level and it is can be a drastically different value from school to school.

Nothing wrong with that. There is more than enough football out there to satisfy fans and athletes.

[bonarae]

I actually know Davidson fairly well (compared to many programs) since I have a good friend that played there and is close to the program.

I am told the PFL is a great fit for the school and that the alumni actually take pride in the Ivy model they use. (A good portion of their students were also accepted to Ivy League schools.) Additionally, the program pays for itself. The sport generates donations that permeate through the campus and while they could move to a scholarship system there is no belief that it will generate any more interest from the student body (it is a very small student body with over five percent of the student body being on the football roster) and there is no reason to believe that an increase in on the field performance will increase donations or fan attendance to games since they already draw double their student body in attendance.

For Davidson, sports are part of the offering for students with a quarter of their students being varsity athletes. They offer many more sports than would be expected of a D1 school their size and rigor. They are offering football for their students and not in a race to the bottom by wasting resources on a program. Davidson is doing it right.

If you actually believe that FCS football, or more generally, college football has value then Davidson is no different. If you only think that there is value in constantly spending money to chase conference titles and national recognition then you'll find more attrition of FCS programs in the future.

I believe, however, that Davidson is more like a D-III than an average scholarship FCS (say Lehigh, Chattanooga, Villanova or NDSU) by what you just described in your post. It's really a misfit, after all. BU shutting down football years ago was I think due to the latter sentence of the bolded paragraph.

What about Wofford, though? They can compete in the SoCon football department most years despite their small student body.


It is not a question of making money but rather putting a value on the experience. A football program will cost money. Some programs can recoup it and others can justify the spending but it is different for each school. One school might peg the football value at a $500,000 loss a year while another might peg the value at $2MM loss a year. Anything over their peg might be viewers as a drain on resources at a level greater than the program's value. But each school has their own level and it is can be a drastically different value from school to school.

Nothing wrong with that. There is more than enough football out there to satisfy fans and athletes.

But there is a bias of football (especially at the college level) per region... xsmhx

[DFW HOYA]

They honestly seem like an ideal candidate for sprint football. They could play a schedule that includes three Ivies and the service academies every year which I'm sure would appeal to them big time. All the while keeping at least some version of the game on campus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_football

Actually, they would be an exceedingly poor candidate as distance and timing make sport participation improbable.

The Collegiate Sprint Football League (formerly the ELFL) consists of seven schools, the closest of which is 500 miles from Charlotte (Navy) and the farthest, Franklin Pierce College, is almost 850 miles away. While the PFL isn't any better, the budget for these teams would make travel (incl. those games scheduled on Friday nights) even more troublesome.

Playing Ivies has never been the priority at Davidson. Last season's 56-17 loss to Princeton was Davidson's first Ivy game since 1988.

The Wildcats have been more comfortable playing regional opponents and that's how I would expect it to continue. Put another way, they're not seeking to return to the SoCon or the Patriot League anytime soon.

[Pinnum]

I believe, however, that Davidson is more like a D-III than an average scholarship FCS (say Lehigh, Chattanooga, Villanova or NDSU) by what you just described in your post. It's really a misfit, after all. BU shutting down football years ago was I think due to the latter sentence of the bolded paragraph.

What about Wofford, though? They can compete in the SoCon football department most years despite their small student body.



But there is a bias of football (especially at the college level) per region... xsmhx

Wofford does well. And I do believe Davidson wants a better product (they have a new coach) but Davidson and Wofford are not the same and have different focuses. Davidson is very much academically focused. The two schools have very different cultures.


Entering Freshmen Stats:

Davidson


Average GPA
3.9


SAT Math
657 average
600-710 range of middle 50%


SAT Critical Reading
676 average
630-730 range of middle 50%


SAT Writing
659 average
610-710 range of middle 50%



Wofford



Average GPA
3.54


SAT Math
597 average
540-640 range of middle 50%


SAT Critical Reading
585 average
540-620 range of middle 50%


SAT Writing
569 average
520-620 range of middle 50%


ACT Composite
26 average
24-29 range of middle 50%



My point is that schools are all very different. There is no one size fits all plan for each of them. For instance, I am a huge fan of the playoff but I also believe that the SWAC/MEAC Bowl is best for those schools involved. I believe that many D3 schools are on par with PFL teams but I also believe the PFL champion should have a bid into the FCS tournament.

Just because two schools seem to be similar doesn't mean they are proxies. I wouldn't say Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Cornell are all the same with equal expectations just because they are all in the same conference with similar academic profiles.

[clenz]

You're assuming at these places it's about ROI in terms of money instead of in terms of experience for the kids, students, alumni, teaching, etc. You sound like John Silber with his litmus test that football has to be a "money-making" program, as if that's the main function of the team.
Programs like BU, Northeastern, Loyola, etc... clearly met the point where the "feel good" ROI wasn't keeping up with the "real" ROI.

I would agree it's not all about the money, but if the feel good ROI isn't offsetting the money ROI and relationship ROI with alumni/donors/students why should a university be forced to continue to have football on life support? Surely not because someone might feel that an overall college experience might be "slightly less rounded" if the university stop funding the loss. If football is that important to a student, who isn't playing the sport, there are other options of universities to attend. If a degree/specific program from a university is most important they will attend that university, regardless if it has football. Outside of the students who were on campus when that university when football existed there isn't anyone student on campus that will know the difference between football being there and not, especially in an area of the country where college football falls behind college hockey, college basketball, NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, college lacrosse and maybe some other sports

I know everyone on this board loves football and thinks funding FCS football is worth it, sans Sader87, but the reality is this board represents about .0000005% of the population. There are 318m people in the US. Let's pretend that half give a damn about college football, and to be honest that's probably about right. Now, let's pretend that of that 159m there are 2m that are true FCS fans - which is extremely high based on numbers but I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt. Now of that 2m lets pretend that half is "live and breath" FCS football - again 1m is EXTREMELY high. Now, lets pretend that the internet message boards attract half of those - again 500K is extremely high. Now, this site has roughly 100-200 hardcore, dedicated, FCS posters. Let's widdle that down to a % - 200 of 318 is such a small %
that a calculator reads it as 6.289038176100629e-7. For those that don't understand the e- it means to put that in a % it is .0000006289308176. Yup...that's 6 zeros before the first digit.

For many schools FCS football is worth it - but there's a reason there are 350 D1 schools and only 120 FCS schools. For small and/or private schools, especially in the NE and California, it's not a battle that's worth it for a lot them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I actually know Davidson fairly well (compared to many programs) since I have a good friend that played there and is close to the program.

I am told the PFL is a great fit for the school and that the alumni actually take pride in the Ivy model they use. (A good portion of their students were also accepted to Ivy League schools.) Additionally, the program pays for itself. The sport generates donations that permeate through the campus and while they could move to a scholarship system there is no belief that it will generate any more interest from the student body (it is a very small student body with over five percent of the student body being on the football roster) and there is no reason to believe that an increase in on the field performance will increase donations or fan attendance to games since they already draw double their student body in attendance.

For Davidson, sports are part of the offering for students with a quarter of their students being varsity athletes. They offer many more sports than would be expected of a D1 school their size and rigor. They are offering football for their students and not in a race to the bottom by wasting resources on a program. Davidson is doing it right.

If you actually believe that FCS football, or more generally, college football has value then Davidson is no different. If you only think that there is value in constantly spending money to chase conference titles and national recognition then you'll find more attrition of FCS programs in the future.

This. College football works at Davidson. It may not be the same way it's done at UNI, or even Lehigh, but they're happy with it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Programs like BU, Northeastern, Loyola, etc... clearly met the point where the "feel good" ROI wasn't keeping up with the "real" ROI.

I don't disagree with your whole post above, but I do want to mention that everyone's version of ROI is different. Silber's version of ROI was literal, e.g. "does the program generate a monetary return on investment"? Then he stuck in as "investment" expense football scholarships, which he thought were taking away opportunities for other students and thus being "thrown away". I agree that we are the die-hards, who see more value in FCS football that doesn't show up in a balance sheet (as do you, clenz, I'm sure), but the issue is people come up with the numbers that they feel they want.

[Ivytalk]

Good point. Over and over, I see posts on this board saying, "I'm glad my school doesn't schedule the Ivy League." ...and... "Harvard has been begging us for a game AGAIN. Why can't they leave us alone?"

Well, Harvard finally responded to the pounding drumbeat of alums who insisted on a series with those fanatical football titans from Kingston, RI.xcoffeex

[walliver]

Davidson at one time had a competitive football program but failed to support it. At one time, they played their games in Charlotte at Memorial Stadium in front of decent crowds. Unfortunately, the program was neglected and had become non-competitive well before football was de-emphasized. Currently, the program is quite bad, even by PFL standards. The problem isn't academics, the problem is that their administration doesn't care. Properly managed, Davidson's academic reputation should give them some competitive advantage in recruiting.

Playing the College of Faith was an extremely interesting choice: Most schools who pride themselves on academic integrity would never want to be associated with such a bizarre institution.

By the way, Kentucky Wesleyan, one of their 2015 opponents has an interesting schedule with a group of teams of which Davidson is obviously quite proud to be a part.
http://kwcpanthers.com/schedule.aspx?path=football

[DFW HOYA]

Davidson at one time had a competitive football program but failed to support it. At one time, they played their games in Charlotte at Memorial Stadium in front of decent crowds. Unfortunately, the program was neglected and had become non-competitive well before football was de-emphasized.

The bottom dropped out after the 1969 team went to the Tangerine (now Citrus) Bowl.

[Model Citizen]

The bottom dropped out after the 1969 team went to the Tangerine (now Citrus) Bowl.

They weren't far from the bottom, despite a reasonably successful '69 season. That was one of their two winning campaigns during a 20-year period, 1959-1978.

The 1980s weren't any better. The Wildcats once had a 4-year stretch in which they went 0-39 against teams not named Wofford.

So I would characterize Davidson football as consistent. Lol

[Go...gate]

The bottom dropped out after the 1969 team went to the Tangerine (now Citrus) Bowl.

God, I'm old. I remember that team.

[bonarae]

Davidson at one time had a competitive football program but failed to support it. At one time, they played their games in Charlotte at Memorial Stadium in front of decent crowds. Unfortunately, the program was neglected and had become non-competitive well before football was de-emphasized. Currently, the program is quite bad, even by PFL standards. The problem isn't academics, the problem is that their administration doesn't care. Properly managed, Davidson's academic reputation should give them some competitive advantage in recruiting.

So, Davidson's problem isn't similar to any of the Ivies' or NESCAC teams' problems... it's actually similar to Georgetown's. xsmhx

[DFW HOYA]

So, Davidson's problem isn't similar to any of the Ivies' or NESCAC teams' problems... it's actually similar to Georgetown's. xsmhx

No, it's not. Football has never been deemphasized over the last 50 years at Georgetown inasmuch as it returned as a student-led group with minimal financing. Its growth of funding is low but there was never a cutback as at Davidson and other schools.

The football team represents 10% of the entire male student population at Davidson. To support this group with full scholarship would account for just under 10 percent of the entire financial aid budget of the college, which also differs from the Ivies and Georgetown in one significant area--unlike these nine schools, it offers about $4.2 million in merit awards at admission in an attempt to fill the class with top candidates, which is roughly 225 FTE's out of 1,700.

[OhioHen]

By the way, Kentucky Wesleyan, one of their 2015 opponents has an interesting schedule with a group of teams of which Davidson is obviously quite proud to be a part.
http://kwcpanthers.com/schedule.aspx?path=football

With a win at Davidson, Kentucky Wesleyan likely ends up with a winning record against that schedule.