USA Today Expenses/Subsides Database for FCS Schools

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/05/usa-today-releases-finances-database.html

I broke out the database to remove all the schools that don't include FCS football. All the numbers are included in the embedded spreadsheet at the link.

From there, you can see some interesting things, including:

The average revenue and spending of athletic departments with FCS football is close to $15 million.
The average subsidy of these athletics departments with FCS football is almost $11 million, with 70% of the revenues coming from the USA Today's definition of "subsidy".
A little bit over 1/3 of the FCS schools beat the average ot $15.3 million, including every school from the CAA that disclosed.
Every school but one in the SWAC had revenues and expenses nearly $5 million under the FCS average.
Only six schools had subsidies less than half of the total expenses of the department.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One interesting thing I noticed was how dissimilar Alabama State was to everyone else in the SWAC. The Hornets have made some noise about going to FBS, but their resource level seems to match up much better with the Southland than either FBS or the SWAC. Unfortunately the Turkey Day classic puts them essentially off-limits from the FCS playoffs, though their FBS dreams seems to imply that they seem to be willing to forego that completely.

[Professor Chaos]

Sorting the USA Today list (http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/) by conference is pretty interesting. I realize this includes all sports but the dollar figures show that the budget gap between the upper level FCS and lover level FBS is pretty much non-existent. The amount of subsidies is as eye opening as usual. How JMU pulled $33M out of student fees in 2014 is mind boggling (by comparison NDSU, Montana, and UNI are all under $2M).

[clenz]

Sorting the USA Today list (http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/) by conference is pretty interesting. I realize this includes all sports but the dollar figures show that the budget gap between the upper level FCS and lover level FBS is pretty much non-existent. The amount of subsidies is as eye opening as usual. How JMU pulled $33M out of student fees in 2014 is mind boggling (by comparison NDSU, Montana, and UNI are all under $2M).
It's why I love all the of the "UNI is broke" talk when that fires up.

It's coming from schools getting 60-70% of their money from students/state. If UNI wanted to screw students over, even at the rate of the rest of the MVC, the budget would be pushing $20M dollars and really pushing towards FBS membership.

Really shows the difference in schools/athletic departments that know how to handle money and those who look at a "challenge" and go "**** the students...get more money from them"

[centennial]

It's why I love all the of the "UNI is broke" talk when that fires up.

It's coming from schools getting 60-70% of their money from students/state. If UNI wanted to screw students over, even at the rate of the rest of the MVC, the budget would be pushing $20M dollars and really pushing towards FBS membership.

Really shows the difference in schools/athletic departments that know how to handle money and those who look at a "challenge" and go "**** the students...get more money from them"
I suspect UNI has the same "problem" as NDSU. The student body is strong and does not allow student fees increases.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sorting the USA Today list (http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/) by conference is pretty interesting. I realize this includes all sports but the dollar figures show that the budget gap between the upper level FCS and lover level FBS is pretty much non-existent. The amount of subsidies is as eye opening as usual. How JMU pulled $33M out of student fees in 2014 is mind boggling (by comparison NDSU, Montana, and UNI are all under $2M).

A weakness of the original USA Today database is that for the MVC is that it doesn't include all the teams in the MVFC, one of the reasons why I made the my spreadsheet from their data.

I might do a finer-grain conference analysis if there is interest. I could even add private schools' EADA numbers to it, which wouldn't include subsidy but it would offer a comparison on revenues/expenses.

[CrazyCat]

It would be nice to break down just football. I can for MSU and UM, but it is still fuzzy math.

[clenz]

I suspect UNI has the same "problem" as NDSU. The student body is strong and does not allow student fees increases.
Essentially.

Small increases here and there happen, but it just doesn't happen much. $25 per semester would be LARGE increase in fees at UNI and would be very controversial to pass.

The student government at UNI is a very strong entity

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It would be nice to break down just football. I can for MSU and UM, but it is still fuzzy math.

Not sure I can un-fuzzify the math xlolx, but I might try to use the EADA reports to attempt de-fuzzify it somewhat. That could involve some work, though.

[CrazyCat]

Not sure I can un-fuzzify the math xlolx, but I might try to use the EADA reports to attempt de-fuzzify it somewhat. That could involve some work, though.

Just a general comment on databases like USA Today, not a criticism of what you did.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just a general comment on databases like USA Today, not a criticism of what you did.

Totally not taking that as criticism. I see it as an interesting challenge!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I suspect UNI has the same "problem" as NDSU. The student body is strong and does not allow student fees increases.

Same thing at UM. The students will say "Beat it" whenever the Athletic Dpt. pushes for a raise. They like and support the sports but they won't be bent over for it. Figure out a way that doesn't put the wood to the reason it is all there in the first place.

[clenz]

Same thing at UM. The students will say "Beat it" whenever the Athletic Dpt. pushes for a raise. They like and support the sports but they won't be bent over for it. Figure out a way that doesn't put the wood to the reason it is all there in the first place.
Isn't it something that 3 of the "most known" FCS schools all take the same approach when it comes to funding their athletic departments? Montana and NDSU are definitely football first schools but do strive for a fairly rounded department as a whole. UNI is more "rounded" in it's focus but same type of approach. Find ways to work a well oiled athletic department that doesn't involve ostricizing the students to fund a bloated budget.

That's most of what the budget at places like JMU (and honestly about 80% of schools) are. It's all bloat and they need to beg the state and students to pay for it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

UM and UNI's approach to athletics spending is remarkably similar: <50% of the athletics department is funded by subsidy, athletic departments at around $19 million total expense with a subsidy hovering about $7 million. If you're judging schools by their reliance on the subsidy, both Montana and UM are two of the healthiest athletic departments in FCS.

NDSU has followed their lead and are also in this same club ($20M, <50% subsidy)

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Isn't it something that 3 of the "most known" FCS schools all take the same approach when it comes to funding their athletic departments? Montana and NDSU are definitely football first schools but do strive for a fairly rounded department as a whole. UNI is more "rounded" in it's focus but same type of approach. Find ways to work a well oiled athletic department that doesn't involve ostricizing the students to fund a bloated budget.

That's most of what the budget at places like JMU (and honestly about 80% of schools) are. It's all bloat and they need to beg the state and students to pay for it.

I think it's a good reflection on the student bodies of those schools for sure. If an Athletic Dpt. could take the shortcuts they probbly would but if the students hold their feet to the fire then I think you are correct in that a better outcome is more achievable. For the most part in society if you don't let welfare just be a given and things are earned it's probably part of the reason you get some better results. It's a healthier attitude.

I'm not talking about the athletes or anything like that here, just the way departments are ran.

[centennial]

Isn't it something that 3 of the "most known" FCS schools all take the same approach when it comes to funding their athletic departments? Montana and NDSU are definitely football first schools but do strive for a fairly rounded department as a whole. UNI is more "rounded" in it's focus but same type of approach. Find ways to work a well oiled athletic department that doesn't involve ostricizing the students to fund a bloated budget.

That's most of what the budget at places like JMU (and honestly about 80% of schools) are. It's all bloat and they need to beg the state and students to pay for it.
I think it mostly comes down to relatively being budget schools and a culture of not wasting money. Having personally known some student body leaders and also being a part of it for a semester, a lot of them weren't fans of athletics. There would be too much whining if anyone tried to increase the subsidies.

[clenz]

I think it mostly comes down to relatively being budget schools and a culture of not wasting money. Having personally known some student body leaders and also being a part of it for a semester, a lot of them weren't fans of athletics. There would be too much whining if anyone tried to increase the subsidies.
Yep.

UNI has proposed small (again, $20-25 per semester) increases and it hasn't passed because it's seen as putting too much focus on athletics and not enough on academics. The Student Government is fans of athletics, in general, but they also "placate" to the deans/professors.

It forces the athletic department to be much more calculated and precise with contracts, promotions, everything. It creates a lean budget and that can "look unhealthy" but the reality is it isn't.

[Pinnum]

I think it mostly comes down to relatively being budget schools and a culture of not wasting money. Having personally known some student body leaders and also being a part of it for a semester, a lot of them weren't fans of athletics. There would be too much whining if anyone tried to increase the subsidies.

The problem is that most people don't know how much of their cost of education goes to athletics. When people find out, as is the case with student leaders, they begin to become skeptical of the spending. Everyone enjoys the football and basketball games until they find out they are being charged $500 or $1,000 for the benefit of attending those contests. And when students see athletes not interested in their education being given a free ride and benefits they begin to develop an animosity.

There are a lot of students that feel like they could find a better use for that money.

[clenz]

An example is SIU. The amount they pull in from student feeds is something like 7-8 million dollars with the last figures I saw (a couple years old, granted) Yet they are in extreme hurt when it comes to money.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

An example is SIU. The amount they pull in from student feeds is something like 7-8 million dollars with the last figures I saw (a couple years old, granted) Yet they are in extreme hurt when it comes to money.

SIU numbers: $13.651 million in subsidies. 2nd highest number in MVFC, 15th highest in FCS, 64th overall.

Highest subsidy in MVFC is Illinois State: $15.112 million, 13th highest, 55th overall.

SIU's percentage is 62% subsidy, Illinois State's is 70%, which puts them in line with the rest of FCS, on average.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/05/usa-today-releases-finances-database.html

[clenz]

SIU numbers: $13.651 million in subsidies. 2nd highest number in MVFC, 15th highest in FCS, 64th overall.

Highest subsidy in MVFC is Illinois State: $15.112 million, 13th highest, 55th overall.

SIU's percentage is 62% subsidy, Illinois State's is 70%, which puts them in line with the rest of FCS, on average.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/05/usa-today-releases-finances-database.html
Yet they are both two of the "poorest", and worst run athletic deparments, of all MVC/MVFC schools.

I don't know if it's causation or correlation, but damn interesting.

[CrazyCat]

Just looking at student fees. There are reasons for numbers to look good or bad. Again I can only use MSU and UM because the Board of Regents has the athletic income details. MSU and UM's student fees are actually pretty close in the amount each student pays. One schools enrollment is trending up to record levels and the other is unfortunately trending the other way. So, one school in the view of these databases, is better because they use less student fees. Not because they charge less or use less, but for the simple fact that the enrollment is less and is dropping.

[centennial]

Just looking at student fees. There are reasons for numbers to look good or bad. Again I can only use MSU and UM because the Board of Regents has the athletic income details. MSU and UM's student fees are actually pretty close in the amount each student pays. One schools enrollment is trending up to record levels and the other is unfortunately trending the other way. So, one school in the view of these databases, is better because they use less student fees. Not because they charge less or use less, but for the simple fact that the enrollment is less and is dropping.
You want to think about what you just typed? One school -> Montana has lower enrollment so their subsidies should go up but they aren't, Other school-> MSU has higher enrollment so subsidies should be lower but they aren't. Explanation- that one school makes more money and doesn't need as much money from the students. I know you guys dislike each other but you are talking about two separate issues and joining them to suit your view point.
Have a look here- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Just looking at student fees. There are reasons for numbers to look good or bad. Again I can only use MSU and UM because the Board of Regents has the athletic income details. MSU and UM's student fees are actually pretty close in the amount each student pays. One schools enrollment is trending up to record levels and the other is unfortunately trending the other way. So, one school in the view of these databases, is better because they use less student fees. Not because they charge less or use less, but for the simple fact that the enrollment is less and is dropping.

Makes sense and I think both UM and MSU do very well in that area. I know the student fee thing was slightly in UM's favor even back like 8 or 10 yrs. ago but they are very similar.

What is the enrollment at each school now?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You want to think about what you just typed? One school -> Montana has lower enrollment so their subsidies should go up but they aren't, Other school-> MSU has higher enrollment so subsidies should be lower but they aren't. Explanation- that one school makes more money and doesn't need as much money from the students. I know you guys dislike each other but you are talking about two separate issues and joining them to suit your view point.
Have a look here- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I like CrazyCat a lot just to put that to rest. xlolx

[clenz]

Just looking at student fees. There are reasons for numbers to look good or bad. Again I can only use MSU and UM because the Board of Regents has the athletic income details. MSU and UM's student fees are actually pretty close in the amount each student pays. One schools enrollment is trending up to record levels and the other is unfortunately trending the other way. So, one school in the view of these databases, is better because they use less student fees. Not because they charge less or use less, but for the simple fact that the enrollment is less and is dropping.
Right...but most MVFC schools are pretty much the same size (give or take about 1-2k students) so the fee difference is still noticeable.

SIU - ~10m in student subsidies and 15k students (~700 per student) - SIU is listed at 315 per semester (http://tuition.siuc.edu/tuition_est/tuition.pl?siustart=136later&level=undergrad&college=other&residency=resident&altrate=altrateno&cohort=154&semester=154&fees=yes)
ISUr - ~12m in subsidies and 20k students (~600 per student) - their website lists athletic/rec fees at $79 per credit hour (http://studentaccounts.illinoisstate.edu/tuition/tables/table-l.shtml) but we have to take out health and non-athletic fees so it's about 50 per credit hour...or ~700 per semester
UNI - ~2m in subsidies and 13k students (~150 per student) - UNI is listed at $50.50 per semester...also gets you free tickets to every sporting event on campus.
(http://www.uni.edu/tuition/2015-2016-tuition-and-mandatory-fees-non-supplemental)
So...fees are as much for 1 class at ISU as they are for a year at UNI

[CrazyCat]

You want to think about what you just typed? One school -> Montana has lower enrollment so their subsidies should go up but they aren't, Other school-> MSU has higher enrollment so subsidies should be lower but they aren't. Explanation- that one school makes more money and doesn't need as much money from the students. I know you guys dislike each other but you are talking about two separate issues and joining them to suit your view point.
Have a look here- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I was talking specifically about student fees. That's the thing about generalizing subsidies into a big bad thing. It adds in such things as expansions or construction that was built using money that was raised with donations. Will that help or hurt UM in the subsidy department when the softball complex and athlete academic building and new locker and weight facilities are built? I'm glad that you know what my view is without knowing the first thing about me. Want to hear what I think of your viewpoint?

[Professor Chaos]

You can click on each school name in the USA Today list (http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/) and see what the student fees were for 2014 (and the last 9 years before that as well). In 2014 UNI was at roughly $1.75M, NDSU was at $1.1M, IlSU was at $9.1M, and SIU was at $8.5M in student fees going to the AD. In the Big Sky UM was at $1.5M and MSU was at $1.75M.

Some interesting trends can be seen there as well. For instance UND has gone from $693K of student fees to the AD in 2005 (which I believe was their last in D2) to $3.15M in 2014 so it illustrates the price of going D1 for them. Similarly Georgia Southern went from $5.8M in student fees in 2013 to $9.5M in 2014. That was by far the biggest hike year over year of any fund going to their AD in that list which illustrates the price of going FBS in some places (App St managed to keep student fees slightly lower in 2014 than in 2013 though).

[clenz]

You can click on each school name in the USA Today list (http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/) and see what the student fees were for 2014 (and the last 9 years before that as well). In 2014 UNI is roughly $1.75M, NDSU is $1.1M, IlSU is $9.1M, and SIU is at $8.5M in student fees going to the AD. In the Big Sky UM was at $1.5M and MSU was at $1.75.
My guesses were a bit off, but not enough to change the point I was making.

[clenz]

For real, though. I'm starting to "fantasize" about a world were UNI, NDSU and Montana add $8-12m to their athletic budget on the backs of students. Putting all of them close to 25-30M each. Imagine the possibilities guys...

Maybe we're the ones doing it wrong.

http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/1478180/18771104/1339715698647/green+lady+with+ribbon+website+banner.jpg?token=UG 8szMB%2BOhpJ5cOUszqMtwnOYO8%3D

[IBleedYellow]

Clenz, UAH - what do the booster clubs for each school give per year to cover scholarships (if that's what they are for at each school)?

I know that just from Teammakers alone NDSU's scholarships (around 3.9M I believe) are 100% covered. Also, how are booster club donations added into these figures? Subsidies?

[IBleedYellow]

EDIT: I found where the Booster Clubs are: Contributions. Only 3.6M for Teammakers.

UM: 3.2M
UNI: 2.7M

Let's make this better:

NDSU: Expenses - 3.4M Scholarships. 3.6M Scholarships covered.
UM: Expenses - 4.4M Scholarships. 3.5M Scholarships covered.
UNI: Expenses - 3.7M Scholarships. 2.7M Scholarships covered.

[Professor Chaos]

Clenz, UAH - what do the booster clubs for each school give per year to cover scholarships (if that's what they are for at each school)?

I know that just from Teammakers alone NDSU's scholarships (around 3.9M I believe) are 100% covered. Also, how are booster club donations added into these figures? Subsidies?
I think that's covered in Contributions in the school details. In 2014 NDSU was at $3.66M, UM was at $3.25M, and UNI was at $2.75M.

[clenz]

Clenz, UAH - what do the booster clubs for each school give per year to cover scholarships (if that's what they are for at each school)?

I know that just from Teammakers alone NDSU's scholarships (around 3.9M I believe) are 100% covered.
I'm not privy to the exact number, and the Panther Scholarship Club information page hasn't been updated in a couple years...not shocking...

As best as I can put together the PSC is roughly $2.7m but other gifts in kind added to it. I do know record donation levels are being reported ever year. The other, big part, for UNI is the earmarked donations. UNI's wrestling coach position is endowed. UNI's basketball coach just signed a 10 year $10m contract that is 100% fully funded through private donations (his contract has been 100% fully funded since 2010 at ~$550k per year). Kurt Warner "donates" a scholarship to the football team every year. That type of list goes on and on.

All in all the PSC/private side of UNI is growing at a remarkable rate.

[IBleedYellow]

I'm not privy to the exact number, and the Panther Scholarship Club information page hasn't been updated in a couple years...not shocking...

As best as I can put together the PSC is roughly $2.7m but other gifts in kind added to it. I do know record donation levels are being reported ever year. The other, big part, for UNI is the earmarked donations. UNI's wrestling coach position is endowed. UNI's basketball coach just signed a 10 year $10m contract that is 100% fully funded through private donations (his contract has been 100% fully funded since 2010 at ~$550k per year). Kurt Warner "donates" a scholarship to the football team every year. That type of list goes on and on.

All in all the PSC/private side of UNI is growing at a remarkable rate.

I know there are NDSU fans that want to start covering our coaches salaries so that we can attempt to keep them around easier, but I'm not sure if it is possible. I'm pretty jealous that you guys are able to do that.

[Professor Chaos]

Here's another pretty amazing figure from that database. In 2014 NJIT total ticket sales accounted for $7,418 in revenue. Yet somehow they got nearly $500K in Rights/Licensing fees. So apparently they must have a bunch of fans who buy their gear but just don't go to games xconfusedx

And with their total AD expenses at $12.5M they're pulling $2.3M from students and $9.6M from "School Funds". Seems to be a lot of money to subsidize sports that apparently have next to no spectators.

[clenz]

I know there are NDSU fans that want to start covering our coaches salaries so that we can attempt to keep them around easier, but I'm not sure if it is possible. I'm pretty jealous that you guys are able to do that.
We may not have a big fan base, or alumni base. We may have over 50% of our fans be "dual fans" with Iowa/Iowa State and UNI coming second fiddle to those. We may not produce as many rich doctors/lawyers and likely produce 5x the number of teachers/CPAs as other schools.

The thing about our small fan base is that it is as passionate as any school you want to name (including the SEC type fans) and does have some VERY..VERY...wealthy people that have zero problems ensuring that the state/professors have as few reasons as possible to cut funds and say that something bad should happen.

We lucked into getting into the MVC in 1991. We really struggled that first 10 years. Then something magical started to happen in Cedar Falls. UNI alumn Mark Farley was hired to run the football team and they got really good, even though it was traditionally a strong program. UNI alum Greg McDermott was hired to runt he basketball program and turned it from a laughing stock to a NCAA caliber team. Then Jacobson took over and turned it into a top 25 team. Our volleyball turned into a perenial top 15-20 team when with a UNI alum as a coach. Our wrestling team became a top 20 program. Our track and field teams were winning the conference year....things snowballed to where we are now and it's only continuing to snow ball.

We might not have a football title, but we have a lot of other things.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's another pretty amazing figure from that database. In 2014 NJIT total ticket sales accounted for $7,418 in revenue. Yet somehow they got nearly $500K in Rights/Licensing fees. So apparently they must have a bunch of fans who buy their gear but just don't go to games xconfusedx

And with their total AD expenses at $12.5M they're pulling $2.3M from students and $9.6M from "School Funds". Seems to be a lot of money to subsidize sports that apparently have next to no spectators.

Fair enough. But the president of NJIT and the BOT may be perfectly fine with putting that amount of money aside to build the sports program, raise awareness of the school, and give some area athletes a chance for a free (or discounted) education as the place grows.

Rutgers does the exact same thing, with a much heftier price tag - $26 million. In fact the amount that the school directly pumps into the athletics program is a hair under the amount the Scarlet Knights get in ticket sales and licensing fees.

[clenz]

Here's another pretty amazing figure from that database. In 2014 NJIT total ticket sales accounted for $7,418 in revenue. Yet somehow they got nearly $500K in Rights/Licensing fees. So apparently they must have a bunch of fans who buy their gear but just don't go to games xconfusedx

And with their total AD expenses at $12.5M they're pulling $2.3M from students and $9.6M from "School Funds". Seems to be a lot of money to subsidize sports that apparently have next to no spectators.
You'd be shocked how much NJIT stuff I see around here. People buy it for the "novelty"...and because they beat Michigan

[IBleedYellow]

Also, one of the things I love seeing in these budget talks' is just how much UND spends on their athletic department compared to NDSU - and who gets more production out for less money.

[centennial]

Also, one of the things I love seeing in these budget talks' is just how much UND spends on their athletic department compared to NDSU - and who gets more production out for less money.
Butthockey

[clenz]

Not that I'm defending UND here...but...

As far as I'm aware (could be wrong), hockey generally runs 2-3 million for a mens team and 1.5-2m for a womens team. That could, for a school like UND who is going to go all out on hockey, be a $5m hit to the athletic budget.

Also, travel for the rest of their athletic teams is a huge kick to the groin.

One of the big draw backs in the UAB football/no football to the MVC thing is that travel expenses are going to easily cross 7 figures per year. Flying football, mens basketball, womens basketball, volleyball, whatever other sports they have all over 2 time zones isn't going to be cheap.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I managed to make a spreadsheet of all the revenues, expenses, and football expenses... and the results are so interesting to me that I'm going to digest these numbers a bit before making a blog posting of them.

[nodak651]

Also, one of the things I love seeing in these budget talks' is just how much UND spends on their athletic department compared to NDSU - and who gets more production out for less money.

The problem at UND is they sponsor way too many sports. NDSU is smart enough to have few, but properly funded programs. UND should cut baseball and M/W swimming and diving. Neither sport is sponsored by the BigSky or NCHC, and neither sport has any fan following.

[IBleedYellow]

The problem at UND is they sponsor way too many sports. NDSU is smart enough to have few, but properly funded programs. UND should cut baseball and M/W swimming and diving. Neither sport is sponsored by the BigSky or NCHC, and neither sport has any fan following.
You're right...but Hockey is your most expensive sport and I'm pretty sure it's not even close. Does the men's program even cover their own expenses, much less the women's aswell?

Honestly curious. No smack.

[nodak651]

You're right...but Hockey is your most expensive sport and I'm pretty sure it's not even close. Does the men's program even cover their own expenses, much less the women's aswell?

Honestly curious. No smack.

It's hard to say, because the Ralph keeps a lot of the money that it generates to itself. I don't think UND gets any of the food/beer sales $$$. For instance, the recent $3 million dollar locker room renovation was financed by the Ralph/private money. Women's hockey is a complete waste of money.

[FargoBison]

Not that I'm defending UND here...but...

As far as I'm aware (could be wrong), hockey generally runs 2-3 million for a mens team and 1.5-2m for a womens team. That could, for a school like UND who is going to go all out on hockey, be a $5m hit to the athletic budget.

Also, travel for the rest of their athletic teams is a huge kick to the groin.

One of the big draw backs in the UAB football/no football to the MVC thing is that travel expenses are going to easily cross 7 figures per year. Flying football, mens basketball, womens basketball, volleyball, whatever other sports they have all over 2 time zones isn't going to be cheap.

UND's problem is that women's hockey costs basically what you say and brings in basically no revenue. That school loses well over a $1 million a year on women's hockey, it is their athletic ball and chain that they have to lug around.

[clenz]

On the P5 sharing money (from another thread) and AD budgets and blah blah blah.


The B12 announced that they will be give each school enough money to fully fund UNI's athletic department until June 2017

That's just for this year...and just for being in the B12

[Lehigh Football Nation]

On the P5 sharing money (from another thread) and AD budgets and blah blah blah.


The B12 announced that they will be give each school enough money to fully fund UNI's athletic department until June 2017

That's just for this year...and just for being in the B12

Still think a crumb of that money shouldn't get going to every Division I school to fund scholarships across all sports?

[centennial]

On the P5 sharing money (from another thread) and AD budgets and blah blah blah.


The B12 announced that they will be give each school enough money to fully fund UNI's athletic department until June 2017

That's just for this year...and just for being in the B12
How is that surprising? There is a reason they are in the B12. NCAA sells the FCS playoffs with every other championship except the dance. We have no chance at that kind of money.

[clenz]

Still think a crumb of that money shouldn't get going to every Division I school to fund scholarships across all sports?
If you can't run your athletic department without begging the "big boys" for some change you're doing it wrong/shouldn't have an athletic department

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Still think a crumb of that money shouldn't get going to every Division I school to fund scholarships across all sports?

Man, this is really too bad to see this sort of a beggars mindset. It's their thing they f'n built so let's not be lowering ourselves to their bitches by griping about them spreading around their money. That just a sickening welfare mentality to see.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

If you can't run your athletic department without begging the "big boys" for some change you're doing it wrong/shouldn't have an athletic department

Once again, if I just flip the page...xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Man, this is really too bad to see this sort of a beggars mindset. It's their thing they f'n built so let's not be lowering ourselves to their bitches by griping about them spreading around their money. That just a sickening welfare mentality to see.

Do you want them to keep all their money to make themselves richer or is it worthwhile to take a small fraction of that money as a tax to make all of collegiate sports better - and to offer more athletic opportunities?

I think when you pose the question as what's better, adding a second waterfall to the locker room or sponsoring one athletic scholarship to another Division I institution with an operating budget of $20 million or less, I think the latter is going to poll a hell of a lot better.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Do you want them to keep all their money to make themselves richer or is it worthwhile to take a small fraction of that money as a tax to make all of collegiate sports better - and to offer more athletic opportunities?

I think when you pose the question as what's better, adding a second waterfall to the locker room or sponsoring one athletic scholarship to another Division I institution with an operating budget of $20 million or less, I think the latter is going to poll a hell of a lot better.

It's a really sickening part of our culture if that's the case. Add a second waterfall? It's their moeny to do with what they want. Is it unbecoming, sure it is. I can't believe this is where we are at (some of us anyway) that this type of question even exists.

Michael f'n Jordan was better than those he played against for the most part. Did he realty need all those toes? I'm astonished at the way you want to put yourself in a subordinate position, have some damn pride man.

[clenz]

It's a really sickening part of our culture if that's the case. Add a second waterfall? It's their moeny to do with what they want. Is it unbecoming, sure it is. I can't believe this is where we are at (some of us anyway) that this type of question even exists.

Michael f'n Jordan was better than those he played against for the most part. Did he realty need all those toes? I'm astonished at the way you want to put yourself in a subordinate position, have some damn pride man.
It's the typical white guilt, rich hating, liberal mentality these days.

No one is forcing these schools to be in the NCAA. No one is forcing these schools to fund football...or do anything. Some places have more money for things like a waterfall. So ****ing what?

Oregon has zero reason to fund Sacramento State because they have been bad at doing it themselves. If they need more funding they need to take it up with the state. Remember equal=/= fair...

[ursus arctos horribilis]

It's the typical white guilt, rich hating, liberal mentality these days.

No one is forcing these schools to be in the NCAA. No one is forcing these schools to fund football...or do anything. Some places have more money for things like a waterfall. So ****ing what?

Oregon has zero reason to fund Sacramento State because they have been bad at doing it themselves. If they need more funding they need to take it up with the state. Remember equal=/= fair...not should it.

I really don't want the poli stuff brought into this board. I know what you mean, it seems quite pertinent since this is an actual rift in political parties but I really don't want the labels and the stuff that follows coming into this. Let's discuss this one point in and of itself and leave any poli crap to the side for a later day in the lounge or something.xthumbsupx

Outside of that, pure gold clenzy. Agree 100%.

[DFW HOYA]

Do you want them to keep all their money to make themselves richer or is it worthwhile to take a small fraction of that money as a tax to make all of collegiate sports better - and to offer more athletic opportunities? I think when you pose the question as what's better, adding a second waterfall to the locker room or sponsoring one athletic scholarship to another Division I institution with an operating budget of $20 million or less, I think the latter is going to poll a hell of a lot better.

It'a false choice. Penn State is under no obligation to pay a "tax" for Lincoln, nor does Alabama owe money to Alabama A&M. State-funded institutions are funded by state legislatures, and if they want to support HBCU's it must start there. The responsibility is with the state, not an athletic department.

If every I-A program donated a full scholarship to a HBCU, that outfits a total of two I-AA HBCU teams. That's not going to change the core issues these schools face.

Yes, there are larger questions. Does Mississippi really need three Division I HBCU's? Can Maryland justify four HBCU's, including two that are six miles apart? How do states approach funding HBCU's where some schools are no longer majority-minority? But for now, a tax isn't a remedy.

[clenz]

It'a false choice. Penn State is under no obligation to pay a "tax" for Lincoln, nor does Alabama owe money to Alabama A&M. State-funded institutions are funded by state legislatures, and if they want to support HBCU's it must start there. The responsibility is with the state, not an athletic department.

If every I-A program donated a full scholarship to a HBCU, that outfits a total of two I-AA HBCU teams. That's not going to change the core issues these schools face.

Yes, there are larger questions. Does Mississippi really need three Division I HBCU's? Can Maryland justify four HBCU's, including two that are six miles apart? What do states approach funding HBCU's where the schools are no longer majority-minority? But for now, a tax isn't a remedy.
xbowx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The P5 have an interest in having a reasonably healthy Division I to play in, because that's where they compete. Someone has to play them, and help them generate that revenue. Penn State doesn't have to pay Lincoln and every school in Pennsylvania, but they need a healthy Bucknell, Edinboro, Coastal Carolina to host home games in men's basketball, wrestling, and football, and one-time guarantee payments isn't enough.

Revenue sharing is a part of every professional sport in America, but proper revenue sharing does not exist in Division I sports.

[number1]

It'a false choice. Penn State is under no obligation to pay a "tax" for Lincoln, nor does Alabama owe money to Alabama A&M. State-funded institutions are funded by state legislatures, and if they want to support HBCU's it must start there. The responsibility is with the state, not an athletic department.

If every I-A program donated a full scholarship to a HBCU, that outfits a total of two I-AA HBCU teams. That's not going to change the core issues these schools face.

Yes, there are larger questions. Does Mississippi really need three Division I HBCU's? Can Maryland justify four HBCU's, including two that are six miles apart? How do states approach funding HBCU's where some schools are no longer majority-minority? But for now, a tax isn't a remedy.
How did HBCU's enter this conversation? I don't recall any posters from HBCUs pushing that idea.

- - - Updated - - -


One interesting thing I noticed was how dissimilar Alabama State was to everyone else in the SWAC. The Hornets have made some noise about going to FBS, but their resource level seems to match up much better with the Southland than either FBS or the SWAC. Unfortunately the Turkey Day classic puts them essentially off-limits from the FCS playoffs, though their FBS dreams seems to imply that they seem to be willing to forego that completely.
That's because their school is footing almost the entire bill for that budget.

[Hammersmith]

I'm not privy to the exact number, and the Panther Scholarship Club information page hasn't been updated in a couple years...not shocking...

As best as I can put together the PSC is roughly $2.7m but other gifts in kind added to it. I do know record donation levels are being reported ever year. The other, big part, for UNI is the earmarked donations. UNI's wrestling coach position is endowed. UNI's basketball coach just signed a 10 year $10m contract that is 100% fully funded through private donations (his contract has been 100% fully funded since 2010 at ~$550k per year). Kurt Warner "donates" a scholarship to the football team every year. That type of list goes on and on.

All in all the PSC/private side of UNI is growing at a remarkable rate.

Total athletic donations at $4.47M, with the PSC's part of that apparently a little over $2M.

http://www.unipanthers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=26200&ATCLID=209858546&SPID=90725&SPSID=627047


Giving in the past year totaled $4.47 million, with specific giving to the Panther Scholarship Club through its fund drive and other events exceeding $2 million for the first time.

[aceinthehole]

Revenue sharing is a part of every professional sport in America, but proper revenue sharing does not exist in Division I sports.

Apples and oranges ...

[SDFS]

Not that I'm defending UND here...but...

As far as I'm aware (could be wrong), hockey generally runs 2-3 million for a mens team and 1.5-2m for a womens team. That could, for a school like UND who is going to go all out on hockey, be a $5m hit to the athletic budget.

Also, travel for the rest of their athletic teams is a huge kick to the groin.


UND's athletic budget will always be a guessing game because of REA Inc. I am pretty sure that most of the money flowing through them is off the UND books at this time. So, I would say the actual numbers for fees/schools support are correct but in terms of % of the overall budget. It would be overstating the % of support.

You are in the ballpark with your numbers for the hockey programs. They could fund the women's program at a lower level but I believe that the school is very sensitive to supporting the women's program at about the same level as the men’s. I think both are funded in or near the top 10%. I do believe that the men's program makes enough money to cover both men's/women's hockey.

[Hammerhead]

A new report has VMI, Citadel and JMU with the top 3 athletic fees. All are over $2K annnualy for each student and my alma mater, NDSU, is a whopping $113.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/hidden-figures-college-students-may-be-paying-thousands-athletic-fees-n1145171
Hidden figures: College students may be paying thousands in athletic fees and not know it
NBC News found that college students are paying a rising cost, sometimes thousands of dollars, to support athletic programs — fees that don't always appear on their tuition bills.

[clenz]

UNI is at a killer $207 - and that's a ****ing fight and a half yearly.<br><br>Though that 207 includes their entry into every UNI hosted athletic event and also goes towards the student rec center.

[ElCid]

A new report has VMI, Citadel and JMU with the top 3 athletic fees. All are over $2K annnualy for each student and my alma mater, NDSU, is a whopping $113.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/hidden-figures-college-students-may-be-paying-thousands-athletic-fees-n1145171
Hidden figures: College students may be paying thousands in athletic fees and not know it
NBC News found that college students are paying a rising cost, sometimes thousands of dollars, to support athletic programs — fees that don't always appear on their tuition bills.

I am not sure that this is presented accurately though. At least for The Citadel and probably VMI. Fees which are used for athletics is a bit nebulous. Every student at The Citadel is required to participate in various sports activities. I am sure VMI as well. If the fees go directly into a team's budget, then maybe this is an issue. But I suspect not. Again, every cadet student, whether on an actual sports team, uses many of the facilities that these fees pay for. And those activities are mandatory. And a huge portion of the student body does participate in actual official team sports. We don't have a huge number of non sports people who sit in their dorm and party. That doesn't mean that they may more than the cost of these activities in some cases. But it may mean, that the quoted cost is blown out of actual proportion.

[kdinva]

I am not sure that this is presented accurately though. At least for The Citadel and probably VMI. Fees which are used for athletics is a bit nebulous. Every student at The Citadel is required to participate in various sports activities. I am sure VMI as well. If the fees go directly into a team's budget, then maybe this is an issue. But I suspect not. Again, every cadet student, whether on an actual sports team, uses many of the facilities that these fees pay for. And those activities are mandatory. And a huge portion of the student body does participate in actual official team sports. We don't have a huge number of non sports people who sit in their dorm and party. That doesn't mean that they may more than the cost of these activities in some cases. But it may mean, that the quoted cost is blown out of actual proportion.

This, pretty much the same in Lex.

[ElCid]

This, pretty much the same in Lex.

Although it probably isn't the same at JMU and the rest. Poor research by whoever wrote the article.

[Herdistheword]

I would be pissed if I was paying thousands of dollars in tuition and fees to the athletic department. A charge like that better entitle me to use workout facilities and attend events for basically no charge. Anything less is unacceptable when I am supposed to be paying for education, not sports.

[ST_Lawson]

I would be pissed if I was paying thousands of dollars in tuition and fees to the athletic department. A charge like that better entitle me to use workout facilities and attend events for basically no charge. Anything less is unacceptable when I am supposed to be paying for education, not sports.

WIU's is listed as $542 annually although we actually charge per semester hour ($18.07 per semester hour). If you are taking 5 standard 3-hour classes per semester (Fall and Spring) for 15 hours, then it's $271.05/semester, which is ~$542 annually. If you are taking a few more semester hours, it's a bit more, and vice-versa.
That being said, all students who pay this fee (on-campus students, doesn't include online students or students at the Quad Cities campus) can get into all athletics events for free (including football and basketball) and have full use of the Student Recreation Center, which is actually pretty nice (current and retired faculty and staff can purchase an annual membership for $300/year, and it's well worth it if you work out fairly regularly).

[citdog]

This, pretty much the same in Lex.

Cadets can attend all athletic events free of charge.

[centennial]

A new report has VMI, Citadel and JMU with the top 3 athletic fees. All are over $2K annnualy for each student and my alma mater, NDSU, is a whopping $113.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/hidden-figures-college-students-may-be-paying-thousands-athletic-fees-n1145171
Hidden figures: College students may be paying thousands in athletic fees and not know it
NBC News found that college students are paying a rising cost, sometimes thousands of dollars, to support athletic programs — fees that don't always appear on their tuition bills.

JMU fans will keep pretending that their school is hot stuff while it uses federal loan supported tution to run an extremely bloated program. Their MBB is pathetic. With how much money they spend they should be getting to dance all the time and occasionally winning a game.

[Redbird 4th & short]

JMU fans will keep pretending that their school is hot stuff while it uses federal loan supported tution to run an extremely bloated program. Their MBB is pathetic. With how much money they spend they should be getting to dance all the time and occasionally winning a game.

Good point on loan supported tuition & fees ... nc

Here's a thought .. If any of their JMU students get behind on payments or default on their loans, can they allocate that uncollectable/bad debt back to JMU sports in future years ? Including the unpaid interest ?

[clenz]

Good point on loan supported tuition & fees ... nc

Here's a thought .. If any of their JMU students get behind on payments or default on their loans, can they allocate that uncollectable/bad debt back to JMU sports in future years ? Including the unpaid interest ?
The loans aren't with the schools. They are with whomever (private or federal) entity. The school gets their money the second that loan is distributed. Once you graduate your interactions with the school are finished, outside of donations.

[nodak651]

The loans aren't with the schools. They are with whomever (private or federal) entity. The school gets their money the second that loan is distributed. Once you graduate your interactions with the school are finished, outside of donations.
Kinda crazy politicians want to forgive everyones loans that include literally thousands spent on athletics. And at the same time that students are paying ridiculous amounts of money towards athletic fees, the athletes are asking to get paid even more money... If they end up paying athletes, student fees should be banned imo.

[nodak651]

UND's athletic budget will always be a guessing game because of REA Inc. I am pretty sure that most of the money flowing through them is off the UND books at this time. So, I would say the actual numbers for fees/schools support are correct but in terms of % of the overall budget. It would be overstating the % of support.

You are in the ballpark with your numbers for the hockey programs. They could fund the women's program at a lower level but I believe that the school is very sensitive to supporting the women's program at about the same level as the men’s. I think both are funded in or near the top 10%. I do believe that the men's program makes enough money to cover both men's/women's hockey.

Crazy what a difference a few years can make - UND has now cut a bunch of the sports mentioned in this thread. I was also able to obtain a financial statement from the Ralph, and there is over 6 million in revenue from suite rentals, concession/novelty sales, and advertising at the ralph, that doesn't show up as revenue on UND's NCAA financial report. Edit: it's actually higher than 6 mil, because the sales number of almost 3 mil was gross profit on sales, not total sales revenue.

[clenz]

Kinda crazy politicians want to forgive everyones loans that include literally thousands spent on athletics. And at the same time that students are paying ridiculous amounts of money towards athletic fees, the athletes are asking to get paid even more money... If they end up paying athletes, student fees should be banned imo.
A=/=B here

The extreme majority of this "pay the athletes" isn't focused on having the schools pay the athletes.
It's allowing the athletes to "profit off their likeness" through things like video games (IE NCAA football and basketball games come back and players get a cut), it's doing adverts for local businesses and getting paid for it.

Are some pushing for the idea of the school paying the kid? Sure. If you look at any legislation that's been pushed through (and Iowa has passed a law that starts in like a year or two) it's all about allowing player likeness

[IBleedYellow]

Crazy what a difference a few years can make - UND has now cut a bunch of the sports mentioned in this thread. I was also able to obtain a financial statement from the Ralph, and there is over 6 million in revenue from suite rentals, concession/novelty sales, and advertising at the ralph, that doesn't show up as revenue on UND's NCAA financial report. Edit: it's actually higher than 6 mil, because the sales number of almost 3 mil was gross profit on sales, not total sales revenue.

NDSU doesn't get a dime from the suites in the Fargodome either, I believe (other than the actual ticket price for the game.)

So this doesn't really surprise me, especially considering the fact that UND doesn't own The Ralph just like NDSU doesn't own the Fargodome.

[nodak651]

A=/=B here

The extreme majority of this "pay the athletes" isn't focused on having the schools pay the athletes.
It's allowing the athletes to "profit off their likeness" through things like video games (IE NCAA football and basketball games come back and players get a cut), it's doing adverts for local businesses and getting paid for it.

Are some pushing for the idea of the school paying the kid? Sure. If you look at any legislation that's been pushed through (and Iowa has passed a law that starts in like a year or two) it's all about allowing player likeness

That seems to be the way it is trending, so I suppose that you're correct. It's just interesting that this happened after FCOA was implemented. I hope this push for more money by the players ends after the image/likeness thing gets figured out, but I have my doubts. Would really love to see that NCAA video game come back though haha. Part A still stands though, but it's political so I shouldn't have brought it up.


NDSU doesn't get a dime from the suites in the Fargodome either, I believe (other than the actual ticket price for the game.)

So this doesn't really surprise me, especially considering the fact that UND doesn't own The Ralph just like NDSU doesn't own the Fargodome.

True, however the biggest difference is that the ownership of both facilities have completely different mission's. The Ralph is set up as a non profit with the sole purpose of owning and managing the arena for the benefit of UND athletics. The arena also vests with UND in 2030, so the non profit will be dissolved. As it currently stands, the arena also takes half of ticket sales from all sports, even football which does not even play at the facility. This is not the case for NDSU/Fargo Dome. The Ralph owes UND 48% of ticket sales and 1/3 of advertising sales, and they basically keep everything else, though they do also pay much of the operating costs. At the end of the year, EBITDA is normally 2-3 million, and they keep most of it in a fund for improvements and maintenance. However, since they are set up for the benefit of UND Athletics, it's pretty ridiculous that they have like 6 million in cash for this account. I guess the point is that UND Athletics effectively has much higher revenue than the NCAA financial statements show, and hockey is also much more profitable than most people realize. At the same time however, UND is getting hamstrung by the Ralph, because it is hoarding excess profits that should flow back to the UND athletic department. Our former president got blasted by the local media and uneducated fans when he tried to renegotiate this contract. Unless some of this money or bonding by the Ralph help to pay for Phase 2 of UND's practice facility, I really don't see how they are living up to their mission in operating for the benefit of UND athletics (not just UND hockey). Unless something changes, 2030 can't come soon enough IMO.

[IBleedYellow]

That seems to be the way it is trending, so I suppose that you're correct. It's just interesting that this happened after FCOA was implemented. I hope this push for more money by the players ends after the image/likeness thing gets figured out, but I have my doubts. Would really love to see that NCAA video game come back though haha. Part A still stands though, but it's political so I shouldn't have brought it up.



True, however the biggest difference is that the ownership of both facilities have completely different mission's. The Ralph is set up as a non profit with the sole purpose of owning and managing the arena for the benefit of UND athletics. The arena also vests with UND in 2030, so the non profit will be dissolved. As it currently stands, the arena also takes half of ticket sales from all sports, even football which does not even play at the facility. This is not the case for NDSU/Fargo Dome. The Ralph owes UND 48% of ticket sales and 1/3 of advertising sales, and they basically keep everything else, though they do also pay much of the operating costs. At the end of the year, EBITDA is normally 2-3 million, and they keep most of it in a fund for improvements and maintenance. However, since they are set up for the benefit of UND Athletics, it's pretty ridiculous that they have like 6 million in cash for this account. I guess the point is that UND Athletics effectively has much higher revenue than the NCAA financial statements show, and hockey is also much more profitable than most people realize. At the same time however, UND is getting hamstrung by the Ralph, because it is hoarding excess profits that should flow back to the UND athletic department. Our former president got blasted by the local media and uneducated fans when he tried to renegotiate this contract. Unless some of this money or bonding by the Ralph help to pay for Phase 2 of UND's practice facility, I really don't see how they are living up to their mission in operating for the benefit of UND athletics (not just UND hockey). Unless something changes, 2030 can't come soon enough IMO.

I believe the actual figure is 52%, not 50%.

Also, you clearly don't have that higher revenue, because you're not realizing it. That revenue is going to the REA, not UND - and the REA gets to choose how much money flows back to UND. Genius setup from the REA, really. Make out like bandits and look like the "good guys."

[nodak651]

A=/=B here

The extreme majority of this "pay the athletes" isn't focused on having the schools pay the athletes.
It's allowing the athletes to "profit off their likeness" through things like video games (IE NCAA football and basketball games come back and players get a cut), it's doing adverts for local businesses and getting paid for it.

Are some pushing for the idea of the school paying the kid? Sure. If you look at any legislation that's been pushed through (and Iowa has passed a law that starts in like a year or two) it's all about allowing player likeness


NDSU doesn't get a dime from the suites in the Fargodome either, I believe (other than the actual ticket price for the game.)

So this doesn't really surprise me, especially considering the fact that UND doesn't own The Ralph just like NDSU doesn't own the Fargodome.

I just re read your post. UND doesn't even get the ticket revenue for the suites or club lounges (1,064 suite seats/264 club seats). They do "get" to split the revenue from standing room suite sales, however (if a suite owner needs more tickets).

[nodak651]

NDSU doesn't get a dime from the suites in the Fargodome either, I believe (other than the actual ticket price for the game.)

So this doesn't really surprise me, especially considering the fact that UND doesn't own The Ralph just like NDSU doesn't own the Fargodome.


I believe the actual figure is 52%, not 50%.

You are correct - I misspoke. The next sentence is correct when I said that UND gets 48% of ticket sales. But really both figures are wrong, because UND also pays all of the credit card fees off the top, before the money is split up between the Ralph (52%) and UND (48%).

Edit: Just saw your edit "Also, you clearly don't have that higher revenue, because you're not realizing it. That revenue is going to the REA, not UND - and the REA gets to choose how much money flows back to UND. Genius setup from the REA, really. Make out like bandits and look like the "good guys."

I agree and disagree. The fact that UND athletics is generating that type of revenue means something to the overall potential and health of UND athletics, and UND and the Ralph technically have to agree on the amount that gets sent back to UND and the amount that gets hoarded. In ten years, the money in the Ralph's account actually becomes the athletic department's too.

[SDFS]

You are correct - I misspoke. The next sentence is correct when I said that UND gets 48% of ticket sales. But really both figures are wrong, because UND also pays all of the credit card fees off the top, before the money is split up between the Ralph (52%) and UND (48%).

Edit: Just saw your edit "Also, you clearly don't have that higher revenue, because you're not realizing it. That revenue is going to the REA, not UND - and the REA gets to choose how much money flows back to UND. Genius setup from the REA, really. Make out like bandits and look like the "good guys."

I agree and disagree. The fact that UND athletics is generating that type of revenue means something to the overall potential and health of UND athletics, and UND and the Ralph technically have to agree on the amount that gets sent back to UND and the amount that gets hoarded. In ten years, the money in the Ralph's account actually becomes the athletic department's too.

I do think that most people miss the fact that the REA was paying for the Betty (I think $700,000 for the last 15 years). Plus, I do believe that they helped pay bonds off for Phase I. I am hoping that Phase II can be built with resources other than REA. So, that the REA can be used to build a separate practice facilities at the Betty for basketball and volley. Then remodel the Betty with permanent seating all the way around.

[Fordham]

LFN, interesting stuff. I didn't go through every post here but did play around with your site and the site's you linked to. Could not find any PL school data. Why is that?

[Panther88]

It's highly inexcusable for PVAMU to be so "average." There is nothing mediocre about our athl budget, our facilities, and the endless supply of mental/physical talent in tx/La/Ark/Ok.

SHSU and ACU are the fcs juggernauts in tx. And w/ Carthell leading @ SFA, I expect them to ascend quickly to the top tier of tx fcs'dom.