The MAAC and FCS football

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For some reason today I was looking at MAAC schools and college football. As you may or may not know, fifteen years ago the MAAC sponsored a non-scholarship football conference and had ten teams competing for a championship. The MAAC, however, seemed to flounder as the Patriot League decided to ramp to a grant-in-aid scholarship model, though, and the plug was pulled in 2007. Now, of course, the Patriot League has evolved to essentially full-scholarship.

Here's a list of current full-member MAAC schools that currently, or formerly, sponsored football (bold/underlined still sponsor football):

Rider (discontinued Golden Era program in 1951)
Manhattan (had Golden Era program; re-established club football; disbanded in 1987)
Niagara (had Golden Era program; re-established club football; disbanded in 1987)
Canisius (had Golden Era program; re-established club football, established non-scholly I-AA; disbanded in 2002)
Fairfield (established non-scholly I-AA; disbanded in 2003)
Siena (had Golden Era program; re-established club program, established non-scholly I-AA; disbanded in 2003)
St. Peters (non-scholly I-AA; disbanded program in 2007, their move prompted MAAC football to fold)
Iona (had Golden Era program; re-established club program, established non-scholly I-AA; disbanded program in 2008 after trying to survive as an FCS Independent)
Marist (established non-scholly I-AA; current member of PFL, moved to PFL after MAAC folded)
Monmouth (joined MAAC in 2012, was NEC, went to full scholarship football, current member of Big South)

Former associate members in football only:

Georgetown (had Golden Era program, re-established club program, established non-scholly I-AA; current member of Patriot League)
Duquesne (had Golden Era program, re-established club program, established non-scholly I-AA; added NEC model for scholarships, current member of NEC)
LaSalle (had Golden Era program, re-established club program, established non-scholly I-AA; discontinued program in 2007)
St. John's (had Golden Era program, re-established club program, established non-scholly I-AA; discontinued program in 2002)

The ramifications of the MAAC's benign neglect reverberate today.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Also, AGS was around when the MAAC folded. Here's a thread from around that time:

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?22898-MAAC-football-demise

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I got to know several of the La Salle players in the early 2000. One of my close friends was in the "football" frat there.

This guy is easily the most famous...lol. Frank played QB for the Explorers and actually made a Pre-Season All-American list one year. 2004?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pilot-recalls-daring-turnpike-landing/

McCarty Stadium is still used by local high schools and for lacrosse.
http://www.stadiumsusa.com/images/thumbs/23a2e46e9eb327f869b2ec0967a3fd20e6ffee30.jpg-590x1000.png

[DFW HOYA]

Great moments in MAAC history:

1. Reggie Greene sets I-AA rushing record.
http://www.sienasaints.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/082001aac.html

2. Marist vs. Duquesne, primetime on ESPN2.

3. St. Peter's defeats Florida Atlantic at Sun Life Stadium.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/gamecast?gameId=213002226&version=mobile

[bonarae]

Wow. The MAAC's demise had set a trend to "force" the other Eastern FCS to move to other conferences, leaving the PFL (midwestern/western version of it) in the dust. Thus the Ivies play the latter now for easy wins... xsmhx

[nwFL Griz]

Any chance some of those programs are rekindled and the MAAC makes a comeback?

[Laker]

Any chance some of those programs are rekindled and the MAAC makes a comeback?

Same question that I was going to ask. Can we have any restarts in the Northeast?

[Sader87]

In my opinion...nope....too expensive, a lot of those schools are on very shaky grounds financially ovahall.

No offense, but a lot of those programs were 1-AA in just about name only.

[RichH2]

In my opinion...nope....too expensive, a lot of those schools are on very shaky grounds financially ovahall.

No offense, but a lot of those programs were 1-AA in just about name only.
Of that group,thought St.Johns and Iona could last. Not so much ,as it turns out.

[bison137]

Any chance some of those programs are rekindled and the MAAC makes a comeback?


Extremely unlikely. Most of these schools have small endowments, and some have serious financial difficulties. I doubt any of them want to bring back a money-losing football program.

[bonarae]

In my opinion...nope....too expensive, a lot of those schools are on very shaky grounds financially ovahall.

No offense, but a lot of those programs were 1-AA in just about name only.

Dayton Rule in play too? xchinscratchx

I haven't seen any ex-FCS moving down... they instead add other sports e.g. lacrosse and ice hockey (see BU, they have totally moved on from football.)

[Sader87]

Dayton Rule in play too? xchinscratchx

I haven't seen any ex-FCS moving down... they instead add other sports e.g. lacrosse and ice hockey (see BU, they have totally moved on from football.)

That's basically it....they would have to restart at the FCS-level (or get there eventually) under the Dayton Rule. FCS football, particularly full scholarship (which they don't have to be I know), is a very expensive endeavor with very little financial pay-off in most cases.

Of the MAAC schools that discontinued football, I'd argue that Fairfield had the best chance to continue on.

[hebmskebm]

The northeast non-scholarship (or equivalences) leagues in the 90's and early 2000's were sort of a little hermit kingdom mostly sealed off from the rest of 1-AA. They were Division 1 in name only. As some teams made the move towards a traditional D1 scholarship model (and to play a wider variety of D1 opponents), the ones who wouldn't or couldn't simply dropped the sport. Now only Marist is left playing football under that model. They have a choice to make in the next few years: continue to be the NE outpost in the PFL and maintain the status quo, or step up the same way their geographic brethren did.

[bonarae]

The northeast non-scholarship (or equivalences) leagues in the 90's and early 2000's were sort of a little hermit kingdom mostly sealed off from the rest of 1-AA. They were Division 1 in name only. As some teams made the move towards a traditional D1 scholarship model (and to play a wider variety of D1 opponents), the ones who wouldn't or couldn't simply dropped the sport. Now only Marist is left playing football under that model. They have a choice to make in the next few years: continue to be the NE outpost in the PFL and maintain the status quo, or step up the same way their geographic brethren did.

Did you forget the Ivy League? Was it their model?

[aceinthehole]

That's basically it....they would have to restart at the FCS-level (or get there eventually) under the Dayton Rule. FCS football, particularly full scholarship (which they don't have to be I know), is a very expensive endeavor with very little financial pay-off in most cases.

Of the MAAC schools that discontinued football, I'd argue that Fairfield had the best chance to continue on.

Why? The Stags played just 7 seasons (1996-2002) of varsity football.

[hebmskebm]

Did you forget the Ivy League? Was it their model?

The Ivies have always been a special case because of their tradition and financial clout. Everybody knows their definition of "non-scholarship" has never been the same as say, the PFL's "non-scholarship". The pre-scholarship NEC and the MAAC were a lot closer to running themselves like Division III programs than they were to running a program the way a Harvard does.

[Sader87]

Why? The Stags played just 7 seasons (1996-2002) of varsity football.

Just a bit more financial strength than some of the othe MAAC schools that dropped football....in an area where people might support college football more....seems like Sacred Heart sort of took ovah from Fairfield football-wise in that area.

[DFW HOYA]

Extremely unlikely. Most of these schools have small endowments, and some have serious financial difficulties. I doubt any of them want to bring back a money-losing football program.

Endowments by school; of course, endowments play little in whether a school has or does not have football. There are schools with as little as $2 million in operating endowment playing football at the small college level, and conversely, there's a school with a $6 billion endowment not playing (Emory).

Quinnipiac $350M
Fairfield $313M
Marist $230M
Siena $130M
Iona $100M
Monmouth $100M
Canisius $100M
Niagara $93M
Manhattan $71M
Rider $65M
St. Peter's $31M

[Model Citizen]

The Ivies have always been a special case because of their tradition and financial clout. Everybody knows their definition of "non-scholarship" has never been the same as say, the PFL's "non-scholarship". The pre-scholarship NEC and the MAAC were a lot closer to running themselves like Division III programs than they were to running a program the way a Harvard does.

You might be able to take it further than that. If MAAC Football was set up under the same guidelines as the PFL (I think it was), the MAAC FB charter would have actually tethered the them to D-III financial aid rules. In other words: a D-I program having its rules determined by a different NCAA division. In the PFL, they are currently debating whether that's a good idea.

Although the Ivy League isn't restrained by the same rules, I don't see many practical differences.

The Ivies have a lot more money. Money can give you virtually unlimited need-based aid, a national recruiting effort, better facilities, more (and higher paid) coaches, etc.

The other difference is the Ivy League's AI slotting, which lets football recruits in the door who have lower grades/test scores/class rank than the usual Ivy admits. Without such an established system, Ivy football admissions would be an ongoing scandal.

[DFW HOYA]

The northeast non-scholarship (or equivalences) leagues in the 90's and early 2000's were sort of a little hermit kingdom mostly sealed off from the rest of 1-AA. They were Division 1 in name only. As some teams made the move towards a traditional D1 scholarship model (and to play a wider variety of D1 opponents), the ones who wouldn't or couldn't simply dropped the sport. Now only Marist is left playing football under that model. They have a choice to make in the next few years: continue to be the NE outpost in the PFL and maintain the status quo, or step up the same way their geographic brethren did.

Not as simple as you would suggest. The MAAC put subtle pressure on its schools that football was not going to be a priority going forward in the conference and instead to focus on sports that would make a difference (e.g., basketball). The irony is that MAAC basketball is weaker than ever.

Three additional thoughts:

1. If Fairfield had maintained football, I believe they would be playing in the PL today.

2. St. John's dropped football in an epic loss of six men's sports that set back that school's programs for a decade. A lot of kids have grown up without any memory that St. John's was a dominant East Coast basketball program--bigger than Syracuse or UConn in the day. Not any more.

3. The Northeast schools still playing under the 1993-era "cost containment" model are Georgetown and Marist. Duquesne used to play in the MAAC as well but stepped up spending in the NEC.

[Pinnum]

I don't think people realize how much the 1993 decision to move all D1 school's to D1 football impacted some programs. Some programs had very little resources allocated to them and it got worse as the years passed and other programs allocated more resources and there were programs dropped increasing travel costs.

http://www.sienasaints.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/012104aaa.html

"Football accounted for some $200,000 of the Athletic Department's annual budget, including both internal and external funding. The money will be reallocated into other areas of athletics, e.g. coaching, athletic academic advising, sports medicine and general recreation."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Football expenses, 2004: $200,000.
Basketball expenses, 2014, men's hoops: $2,802,018

Operating cost per participant, football, 2004: $2,857 (conservative estimate)
Operating cost per participant, men's hoops, 2014: $31,994


Priorities.

[Model Citizen]

The Northeast schools still playing under the 1993-era "cost containment" model are Georgetown and Marist.

Georgetown left that model behind when they started offering equivalencies...maybe not far behind, but the Hoyas recently outspent Marist by 61 percent (per Equity in Athletics). Georgetown spends more on football than anyone in the PFL-- even the cheaters and soon-to-be-exposed cheaters.

Here's a question. It's 2015: which is more ridiculous?

A. The name Pioneer Football League. "From the (PFL's) inception, (the PFL) has been a proponent of the creation of a non-scholarship football classification within Division I and adopted the moniker of Pioneer, based on the intent to become the first league in that new division." [PFL Official Website]

B. Georgetown remaining in a league where it is hopelessly outgunned in terms of facilities and equivalencies...while offering just enough athletic aid to make PFL membership impossible under current Pioneer rules. This is not a formula for a winning record, much less a playoff bid.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The story I heard was that Fairfield was angling for a Patriot League invite at one time, but only if they were going to remain non-scholarship in football. When the Patriot League had started evolving to a grant-in-aid model (i.e. needs-tested scholarships) and participating in the FCS playoffs, the AD of the Stags saw the writing on the wall and pulled the plug.

Part of my look back at the MAAC was its role as a potential conference where small, private schools could sponsor football and build their programs into ones that could join the NEC, Patriot League, or maybe even the CAA. Of all of them, probably Fairfield was best-suited to grow their program.

Another very interesting point was how the demise of some MAAC programs indirectly helped others.

After Canisius folded their program, Albany's started to grow bigger, and now they're in the CAA.
After Fairfield folded their program, Sacred Heart's finally grew and now are a fairly strong NEC team.
After St. Peter's folded their program, Wagner and Monmouth's programs have expanded.

[UAalum72]

Another very interesting point was how the demise of some MAAC programs indirectly helped others.

After Canisius folded their program, Albany's started to grow bigger, and now they're in the CAA.
After Fairfield folded their program, Sacred Heart's finally grew and now are a fairly strong NEC team.
After St. Peter's folded their program, Wagner and Monmouth's programs have expanded.

Total coincidences. The MAAC teams (and throw in Siena) barely moved the needle in their own market areas. Monmouth and SHU started their programs in the mid-90s, at the same time Albany began moving up from D-III to D-I, and their growth was always in the plan - maybe not as far as eventually did occur, but certainly to take FB more seriously than the MAAC did. Wagner was D-III national champion at the time MAAC football was formed, and the MAAC never got close to that level even before the Dayton Rule.

[ccd494]

The MAAC also got out of the ice hockey business in 2003. Iona, Fairfield and Canisius were the all sports members when it started, with affiliates Quinnipiac, UConn, American International, Holy Cross and Sacred Heart. Bentley, Mercyhurst and Army joined later.

Fairfield and Iona dropped their programs for the 2003 season and there wasn't much reason to continue on with the MAAC running things. The league was set up as (and still is) a cost-containment league. There are scholarships, but less than the 23 the rest of D-I grants. Of the MAAC core schools, Canisius is still muddling along with the cost containment structure. Niagara and Quinnipiac are now in the MAAC, but were not at the time the MAAC sponsored hockey. Quinnipiac is pouring oodles of money into the sport.

Tough to figure out what the MAAC is trying to be other than a moderately okay basketball conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Total coincidences. The MAAC teams (and throw in Siena) barely moved the needle in their own market areas. Monmouth and SHU started their programs in the mid-90s, at the same time Albany began moving up from D-III to D-I, and their growth was always in the plan - maybe not as far as eventually did occur, but certainly to take FB more seriously than the MAAC did. Wagner was D-III national champion at the time MAAC football was formed, and the MAAC never got close to that level even before the Dayton Rule.

The fact that they didn't get a huge media share doesn't change that local athletes that might have gone to Canisius and Siena to play football now had to go elsewhere if they wanted to compete at the collegiate level. Albany, presumably, got a share of those local D-I athletes, and it made their program better enough to be seriously considered by the CAA. Not that it's the only consideration for a school to be considered by another conference, but it certainly is a part of it.

If it were only one situation, I could maybe call it coincidence. But in all three cases? Especially in the case of Sacred Heart, who didn't even change their aid model and seem to be much better than they were.

Wagner went from travelling to LaSalle to opening the 2007 season to nearly embarrassing the pants off of Florida Atlantic opening the season in 2012. Wagner has come a long way since those D-III national championships.

[UAalum72]

When Siena disbanded, at most two or three of their players came to Albany. The MAAC just didn't have that many players with enough talent to have that much of an impact.

Sacred Heart, and all of the NEC, DID change their aid models. It was about 2002 the Northeast Conference began to allow need-based athletic aid. Four years later they began phasing in up to 30 athletic scholarships, and four years after that raised the limit to 40. That's what raised the NEC's level of play, not the demise of programs with what most say was a D-III level of play.

So what if Wagner travelled to LaSalle (in 2006, actually)? The Explorers were an FCS team, and Wagner won their fifth straight against them (by a combined score of 166-83).

You might as well say the end of LaSalle and St. Peter's football increased the talent pool for Lehigh.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Any chance some of those programs are rekindled and the MAAC makes a comeback?

La Salle restarting the program would be interesting. They have the facility and the Philadelphia Catholic league as a recruiting base. Plus, football has a little more culture at LU than it does at their rival St. Joe's. The Hawks stopped playing before WW II.

While Philadelphia is not a hotbed for college football, games against Georgetown, Lehigh, Lafayette, Monmouth, Delaware State, Davidson, Butler, Dayton etc. would get people interested. La Salle students have good school spirit, just like SJU. They've come out to support the bball team despite struggling for the better part of two decades. With a decent product, I think La Salle could support the program reasonably enough, 4-6k a game.....

[Libertine]

When Siena disbanded, at most two or three of their players came to Albany. The MAAC just didn't have that many players with enough talent to have that much of an impact.


This. The MAAC was baaaaad football. The subsequent relative growth of other regional programs has less to do with the MAAC shutting down football and much much more with college administrations taking the benefits of having a football program that much more seriously.

[DFW HOYA]

Here's a question. It's 2015: which is more ridiculous?

A. The name Pioneer Football League. "From the (PFL's) inception, (the PFL) has been a proponent of the creation of a non-scholarship football classification within Division I and adopted the moniker of Pioneer, based on the intent to become the first league in that new division." [PFL Official Website]

B. Georgetown remaining in a league where it is hopelessly outgunned in terms of facilities and equivalencies...while offering just enough athletic aid to make PFL membership impossible under current Pioneer rules. This is not a formula for a winning record, much less a playoff bid.

That's a loaded question, isn't it?

The correct answer is [A], inasmuch as the guiding principles for the Pioneer (the so-called "pioneer" for the I-AAA subdivision) never existed. Instead of serving as an incubator for new programs, it has become a bus stop for southern I-AA schools looking to get a better league elsewhere.

As for [B], it's a Gordian knot. Georgetown plays among talent where it cannot compete (Patriot) and competes for talent where it cannot play (Ivy). The PFL is not an option because it's such a poor fit institutionally. All but one PFL school offers merit aid to applicants even if it can't offer athletic aid. Georgetown would sooner go to 85 football scholarships than offer merit aid. Financial aid based solely on need is a core commitment that drives Georgetown as an institution, not just athletics.

The argument seems to be that the PFL is a fit only because of competition but no other good reason. It's like telling Liberty basketball that it can't win in the Big South, so try playing in the Summit League--yes, it could probably compete traveling to IUPUI and Nebraska-Omaha, but what's the point?

[bonarae]

This. The MAAC was baaaaad football. The subsequent relative growth of other regional programs has less to do with the MAAC shutting down football and much much more with college administrations taking the benefits of having a football program that much more seriously.

On a historic scale, was the MAAC much worse than the PFL of today?

[Pinnum]

The MAAC recruited against D3 programs. The rise in current FCS teams had nothing to do with the demise of the MAAC and everything to do with the increase in resources but into football. It attracted talent away from programs not able to offer recruits merit aid and consolidated it into the FCS programs.

The MAAC was like the PFL without geographic diversity.

[UAalum72]

While the PFL was competitive or better with the non-scholarship NEC, Albany was beating St. Peter's 64-9, and Canisius 44-14 and 28-6. Also while some PFL teams had a past (sometimes long past) history of semi-major football with decent stadiums (Drake, Dayton, Butler) the MAAC teams had little to no such history or facilities.

[Libertine]

On a historic scale, was the MAAC much worse than the PFL of today?

Overall, yes. The PFL of today is not homogenous in that you have several relatively strong programs (ie., Jacksonville, San Diego, Butler), then you have the middling to weak (ie., Stetson, Dayton, Morehead, Marist, Drake) and then you have the glorified club teams (ie., Davidson, Valpo, Campbell). Aside from Duquesne, who won the MAAC 11 out of the 14 years they were in it, the rest of the conference were teams that would have fallen into that bottom tier of today's PFL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

People are missing the point that the MAAC's on-field product (which was, I agree, was in a steady slide and not a great league) has nothing to do with the fact that Siena's, Canisius', and Farifeld's programs represented 200+ roster spots for Division I college football players that are now gone. Let's assume that the 2-3 players that trasferred to Albany when Canisius and Siena folded their programs are productive players, and let's assume that those 2-3 players that might have applied to these schools now would apply to Albany instead. Not 2,000 yard rushers and NFL prospects - merely productive players. Thats 8-12 more productive players on a roster that wouldn't have been there otherwise. Over time, those 8-12 players can make a giant difference.

Again, not saying this is the ONLY thing, just that it's a factor, and just because Siena's and Canisius' programs weren't the best in FCS doesn't mean every player they had on the roster sucked.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The guiding principles for the Pioneer (the so-called "pioneer" for the I-AAA subdivision) never existed. Instead of serving as an incubator for new programs, it has become a bus stop for southern I-AA schools looking to get a better league elsewhere.

It's a funny thing, though, I'd argue the MAAC could have been a "bus stop" for northern I-AA schools looking to get a better league elsewhere, and the lack of that bus stop is a bad thing overall for FCS football in the Northeast. Especially for the Patriot League.

[Model Citizen]

...then you have the glorified club teams (ie., Davidson, Valpo, Campbell).


Please bookmark this thread. I would like to see your comments after the Presbyterian game.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I seem to remember Patty Viverito had a summit talking about the state of non-scholarship football at around the time the MAAC was considering disbanding. At that summit, did she propose absorbing the MAAC into the PFL at that time?

[Libertine]

Please bookmark this thread. I would like to see your comments after the Presbyterian game.

CU's record is 22-57 overall since bringing football back in 2004. That includes a 15-41 record in conference. I don't know what Presbyterian has to do with any of that.

You don't like my comments about your program? Win games.

[Model Citizen]

My program? No. But I encourage people to live in the present.

[Fox 94]

Mr. Rich I know your program.

[Libertine]

If -- and that's a monumental IF -- Campbell beats Presbyterian, that would be a monumental victory for the Camels program and I would be suitably impressed. Given that PC is full-schollie as well as the fact that Campbell is currently 0-10 against OOC D1 competition since bringing the program back, I would file this outcome under "unlikely".

[Model Citizen]

I'm not predicting the outcome. But you called Campbell a glorified club program, which means you've either never seen a club game or never seen a Campbell game. Probably both.

[Libertine]

Please don't presume to know my experiences. I have seen Campbell games on more occasions than I would prefer and I stand by my comments. Admittedly, "glorified club team" was initially a bit of hyperbole on my part but, by comparison to the rest of FCS and even some within their own conference, that may as well be what they are.

[Model Citizen]

No presumption from me. With each post, you reveal more about your experience.

So you haven't seen a club game. Ok.

Campbell might be really bad compared to some in their own conference? I don't think so. Somewhere in the top 3 is where I'd peg them in 2015.

[Libertine]

I'm not following you down into a black hole of the semantic and the pedantic. If you want to start a PFL prognostication thread, go right ahead. That's clearly a topic close to your heart.

Good luck to your Camels this year, sir. May they bring you peace.

[Model Citizen]

I seem to remember Patty Viverito had a summit talking about the state of non-scholarship football at around the time the MAAC was considering disbanding. At that summit, did she propose absorbing the MAAC into the PFL at that time?

I don't recall who rejected the idea. 'Might have been Ensor's proposal.

I think the travel costs were a problem for the MAAC schools...understandable, given the terrible financial situation some found themselves in. The MAAC probably would have formed their own PFL division and regionalized schedule, however.

Offhand comment from Patty Viverito in NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/12/sports/ncaafootball/12marist.html?_r=0

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Campbell was 5-7 last year, with two of those losses to UNCC and App State, and a third to Chuck South, a pretty good Big South team. Not too shabby a performance, IMO.

Guessing that Campbell would have won the MAAC handily in 2005 if they had this team back then.

[Model Citizen]

QBs make a big difference in the PFL. Campbell's new guy holds passing records at App St.

[DetroitFlyer]

I kinda like this Model Citizen.... A completely clueless Libertine, whatever that is, not so much....

[Model Citizen]

...my hijacker accomplice has arrived.

[Model Citizen]

P.S. on proposed MAAC/PFL merger: that discussion did not occur during the so-called summit. Patty V.'s summit was limited to those considering new startup programs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

P.S. on proposed MAAC/PFL merger: that discussion did not occur during the so-called summit. Patty V.'s summit was limited to those considering new startup programs.

Interesting, thanks. If there was talk of a true merger, it happened out of the spotlight, as it were.

Those potential new startup programs ended up being Campbell, Stetson, and Mercer... And some surprising midwest schools, if I remember right. Detroit was certainly one. Kennesaw State may have been another.

Worthy of note Mercer's headed to the SoCon, and KSU headed directly to the Big South. Their stay in the PFL was short, or nonexistent.

The number schools east of Illinois and north of Virginia sponsoring new PFL programs, or any football programs? Zero.

[Model Citizen]

Yes, the PFL has been used as a steppingstone...by Mercer and by those who will announce their intent to leave in the next couple of years.

They helped the league get an automatic tournament bid, so no hard feelings.

I still have hope for Detroit. The AD they hired in the wake of the Gaither-Thomas mess is a former Wake Forest football player. While not a priority for Detroit, football is on one of their back burners, the new stadium has been built (now a soccer stadium w/ football yardlines), and there are actually Titan fans who want football. If Detroit joined the PFL, it would be for the long haul.

[Libertine]

This is just sad. I made one comment regarding the strength of the PFL vs. the MAAC -- in favor of the PFL, at that -- and suddenly it's Personal Attack City because I lumped one program into the bottom tier and had my credibility questioned because I didn't specifically reference having watched club football games.

I have no dog whatsoever in the PFL fight and I could not care less which team finishes third, fourth or ninth. This, really, is what we're talking about since San Diego and Jacksonville -- barring another scholarship issue -- are going to finish 1-2. Strictly going off of numbers and facts -- not pithy insults or invective -- Campbell's chances of beating Presbyterian are unlikely and, since MC brought it up, finishing in the top three of the PFL are slim. I did not say impossible, I said slim.



Since bringing the program back in 2008, CU has never beaten an OOC FCS opponent. Of the 11 teams on Campbell's schedule this fall, CU has a losing record against seven of them (Butler, Drake, Marist, Morehead, Davidson, San Diego and Jacksonville). CU's record against Stetson is even at 1-1 but it bears mentioning that CU lost to Stetson at home last year. Of the other three opponents, CU has never played Pikeville (NAIA), Chowan (D2) or Presbyterian (we've already covered).
Campbell must play the two toughest teams in the PFL in consecutive weeks with San Diego on the road immediately prior to playing Jacksonville at home. Going across the country to play top team A and coming back to play top team B in the span of 8 days is generally considered to be difficult. I don't know who would disagree with that.
It is completely illogical to conclude that, since Campbell lost three games to good opponents in 2014, they would likely have won an entirely different conference in 2005. This isn't even the transitive property taken to an extreme; this is comparing apples and hubcaps. It means nothing. For the record, those three losses were by a combined score of 133-19. This aggregate score, of course, also means absolutely nothing since game results from a decade apart against completely different teams are completely irrelevant to each other.
Considering his experience and background, Kam Bryant at QB (and I've seen him play, too, believe it or not) will probably help an offense that lost Wolf to graduation. Losing three redshirt senior OL and three redshirt senior WR's off the depth chart will likely not.


For the record, I like Campbell. I think CU has the potential to be a solid program at whatever point down the line the administration decides to put more into the program than just having a pretty stadium. At the moment, however, the numbers are what they are; cold, factual and impersonal.

As for Dayton, the only time we hear about Dayton on AGS is when DetroitFlyer thinks someone is taking a run at the PFL -- which, again, I am not. I used to watch the Dayton-Robert Morris game every year but that's become tedious since Dayton has now won 15 in a row. I will watch Dayton play Kennesaw this fall but, once that's done, I will go back to merely noting Dayton as existent. So, there's that.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

I don't think people realize how much the 1993 decision to move all D1 school's to D1 football impacted some programs. Some programs had very little resources allocated to them and it got worse as the years passed and other programs allocated more resources and there were programs dropped increasing travel costs.

http://www.sienasaints.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/012104aaa.html

"Football accounted for some $200,000 of the Athletic Department's annual budget, including both internal and external funding. The money will be reallocated into other areas of athletics, e.g. coaching, athletic academic advising, sports medicine and general recreation."

That decision killed SFU's (well, SFC's) football momentum in the early 1990s. The program was on the upswing before the I-A move. Once, the school went I-A, the administration, like they did in the 1950s when they originally killed the football program, focused exclusively on basketball. Ironically, the basketball team, despite receiving all the funds, hasn't made the NCCA Tournament since 1991. Football never had its first FCS winning season until 2015 and it is still treated as the red-haired stepchild, despite winning two titles in 2016 and 2022.


It's a funny thing, though, I'd argue the MAAC could have been a "bus stop" for northern I-AA schools looking to get a better league elsewhere, and the lack of that bus stop is a bad thing overall for FCS football in the Northeast. Especially for the Patriot League.

The death of MAAC football absolutely changed life in the Northeast. It removed a landing spot for NEC departures. It forestalled several schools leaving even earlier since the Ivy and PL weren't welcoming NEC football refugees. I wish the MAAC stayed in business. It would have provided more regional opponents. It was a disappointing loss for Northeast football and another example of the sport's decaying stance in its birth's region.

[bonarae]

The death of MAAC football absolutely changed life in the Northeast. It removed a landing spot for NEC departures. It forestalled several schools leaving even earlier since the Ivy and PL weren't welcoming NEC football refugees. I wish the MAAC stayed in business. It would have provided more regional opponents. It was a disappointing loss for Northeast football and another example of the sport's decaying stance in its birth's region.

xoutofrepx

I agree, sadly. That forced the Ivies and the PL to play out-of-region opponents and sometimes PFL teams as their OOCs these days.

[Go...gate]

That decision killed SFU's (well, SFC's) football momentum in the early 1990s. The program was on the upswing before the I-A move. Once, the school went I-A, the administration, like they did in the 1950s when they originally killed the football program, focused exclusively on basketball. Ironically, the basketball team, despite receiving all the funds, hasn't made the NCCA Tournament since 1991. Football never had its first FCS winning season until 2015 and it is still treated as the red-haired stepchild, despite winning two titles in 2016 and 2022.



The death of MAAC football absolutely changed life in the Northeast. It removed a landing spot for NEC departures. It forestalled several schools leaving even earlier since the Ivy and PL weren't welcoming NEC football refugees. I wish the MAAC stayed in business. It would have provided more regional opponents. It was a disappointing loss for Northeast football and another example of the sport's decaying stance in its birth's region.

Agreed.

[crusader11]

I love when threads get revived after nearly a decade. Makes this message board the special place that it is.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

I don't think people realize how much the 1993 decision to move all D1 school's to D1 football impacted some programs. Some programs had very little resources allocated to them and it got worse as the years passed and other programs allocated more resources and there were programs dropped increasing travel costs.

http://www.sienasaints.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/012104aaa.html

"Football accounted for some $200,000 of the Athletic Department's annual budget, including both internal and external funding. The money will be reallocated into other areas of athletics, e.g. coaching, athletic academic advising, sports medicine and general recreation."


It's a funny thing, though, I'd argue the MAAC could have been a "bus stop" for northern I-AA schools looking to get a better league elsewhere, and the lack of that bus stop is a bad thing overall for FCS football in the Northeast. Especially for the Patriot League.


xoutofrepx

I agree, sadly. That forced the Ivies and the PL to play out-of-region opponents and sometimes PFL teams as their OOCs these days.

SFU used to play La Salle and St. Peter's. Those were good regional opponents for us. I do wonder had the MAAC kept football and our basketball team was actually able to convert its ample funding into wins if we might have been able to join the conference. The MAAC offered more geographical closeness than the New England-based NEC.

Oh well. Now we are 15+ years from MAAC football's death, our basketball team still hasn't made the NCAA Tournament since 1991, and there is no escape outlet.