Something up w/Marist Football, or is this just a recruiting class announcement?

[Go...gate]

About 90 minutes ago, The Marist Football Facebook page stated as follows:

"Check out our twitter account @Marist_Football in about 15 minutes for some exciting announcements regarding the future of the program."

Marist posters, anything new? Maybe some scholarships and an affiliation with the NEC or Patriot League?

[Libertine]

Recruiting class announcement. 34 names with affiliated Hudl links. Nothing to see here. Unless you're a Marist fan, of course.

[DFW HOYA]

Marist isn't ready for the NEC and certainly isn't ready for 60-scholarship PL football.

[hebmskebm]

Marist isn't ready for the NEC and certainly isn't ready for 60-scholarship PL football.

I don't completely understand how Marist isn't ready for the NEC when you compare them with most of the schools currently in the NEC. Marist can't afford scholarship football but St. Francis can? To me Marist's reasons for being in the PFL are more philosophic than economic. They would be in a scholarship offering conference already if they wanted to, but they don't, so they're not.

[dgtw]

They are joining the SWAC so they can play in the Celebration Bowl.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kdinva]

They are joining the SWAC so they can play in the Celebration Bowl.

xlolx

[M Ruler]

Being in the NEC would sure cut down on travel costs for Marist. Flights to San Diego, CA Jacksonville, FL, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, Georgia etc. tend to add up.

[813Jag]

They are joining the SWAC so they can play in the Celebration Bowl.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Going to itta beena is closer than San Diego xlolx

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Being in the NEC would sure cut down on travel costs for Marist. Flights to San Diego, CA Jacksonville, FL, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, Georgia etc. tend to add up.

It is my understanding that the PFL has travel cost-sharing and travel roster limitations, attempting to manage costs.

[Model Citizen]

Not sure anyone here cares, but Marist's class could be their best ever. Certainly appears to rival the group that included Terrance Fede.

[Go...gate]

Not sure anyone here cares, but Marist's class could be their best ever. Certainly appears to rival the group that included Terrance Fede.

Marist is a good school in a great location and they have a beautiful little ballpark. I can see why they had a successful recruiting season.

[PAllen]

It is my understanding that the PFL has travel cost-sharing and travel roster limitations, attempting to manage costs.

Yeah, but you still have to fly the teams. Even if it's the conference paying for it, the schools have to pay the conference. It's like paying more in taxes to get more "freebies" from the government. A flight to San Diego is a flight to San Diego.

[Model Citizen]

A flight to San Diego is not a big deal. But if you're 19, and have never been to California, you may be glad you're getting a couple of free trips during your college days.

[Pinnum]

Yeah, but you still have to fly the teams. Even if it's the conference paying for it, the schools have to pay the conference. It's like paying more in taxes to get more "freebies" from the government. A flight to San Diego is a flight to San Diego.

No. It is different.

Lets be honest here. If there wasn't the cost sharing then San Diego, Drake, or Stetson may elect to not sponsor the sport. The PFL uses D3 policies. Even with all Marist has going for it they would struggle with D3 recruiting if they didn't offer to subsidize travel for some other programs. The increase in league fees is still significantly less than offering NEC level scholarships. The travel, and name recognition of D1 programs is what attracts recruits to schools like Marist over schools like Ithaca and St John Fisher which play at just as high of a level and offer the chance of a National Championship.

If I had to guess, I would say most recruits would be willing to put one to two thousand dollars a year premium on the PFL schedule over the D3 conferences that are very localized. As a result, you can attract better recruits even if their aid package isn't as competitive.

It is important to remember the PFL mission when talking about the schools.

[PAllen]

No. It is different.

Lets be honest here. If there wasn't the cost sharing then San Diego, Drake, or Stetson may elect to not sponsor the sport. The PFL uses D3 policies. Even with all Marist has going for it they would struggle with D3 recruiting if they didn't offer to subsidize travel for some other programs. The increase in league fees is still significantly less than offering NEC level scholarships. The travel, and name recognition of D1 programs is what attracts recruits to schools like Marist over schools like Ithaca and St John Fisher which play at just as high of a level and offer the chance of a National Championship.

If I had to guess, I would say most recruits would be willing to put one to two thousand dollars a year premium on the PFL schedule over the D3 conferences that are very localized. As a result, you can attract better recruits even if their aid package isn't as competitive.

It is important to remember the PFL mission when talking about the schools.


I'm curious, what are the PFL league fees. How do those fees plus any additional travel costs compare to 60 scholarships minus 100K from a local FBS game (a couple hundred K once every couple of years)? As far as a recruiting advantage, do these kids really think that they're going to be spending a free weekend at the beach in San Diego every other year?

[DFW HOYA]

The travel, and name recognition of D1 programs is what attracts recruits to schools like Marist over schools like Ithaca and St John Fisher which play at just as high of a level and offer the chance of a National Championship.


Marist plays at a much higher talent level than Ithaca or SJF. It just does.

[Pinnum]

Marist plays at a much higher talent level than Ithaca or SJF. It just does.

http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=CF&yr=2014&sub=0 Marist and SJF are both ranked. You can compare.

I think they are on a similar level and a meeting between the two would likely be competitive. Marist likely has more depth than SJF but I would also say Illinois has more depth than LA Tech. It didn't stop LA Tech from beating the Illini in the Heart of Dallas Bowl. The same is true about FCS and FBS comparisons. There are over laps between the two divisions just as the bottom FCS overlaps with the best in D3.

[DFW HOYA]

The Massey Ratings are notoriously unreliable as a means of cross-divisional comparison. Consider this list:

124. Ohio (6-6)
125. Mount Saint Antonio Community College (11-2)
126. Florida International (4-8)
127. Louisiana-Monroe (4-8)
128. Harvard (10-0)

And is the University of Laval (playing Canadian rules football) really better than Lafayette? So says Massey. And for the purposes of comparison, I'll skip the two JC's ranked alongside Georgetown in the Massey list, but hey, I guess the AI at Fresno City College isn't an issue...

[Pinnum]

I'm curious, what are the PFL league fees. How do those fees plus any additional travel costs compare to 60 scholarships minus 100K from a local FBS game (a couple hundred K once every couple of years)? As far as a recruiting advantage, do these kids really think that they're going to be spending a free weekend at the beach in San Diego every other year?

Just doing a quick comparison to the NEC which only offers 40 scholarships.

Dayton and Duquesne are two good peers to compare. Both private catholic schools in the Atlantic 10 with similar costs of tuition.



School
Total Football Expenses
Average Home Game Attendance


Duquesne University
$2,524,618
1,380


University of Dayton
$1,046,059
3,101





Morehead State (KY) and Central Connecticut State are two good peers to compare. Both are regional state schools with very similar in-state and out-of-state tuition rates.



School
Total Football Expenses
Average Home Game Attendance


Central Connecticut State University
$1,965,576
3,078


Morehead State University
$987,153
5,748



I don't think scholarships have a real impact on attendance. As long as a team is competitive in their schedule, I don't think you're going to see a big change in attendance by offering scholarships.

[Pinnum]

The Massey Ratings are notoriously unreliable as a means of cross-divisional comparison. Consider this list:

124. Ohio (6-6)
125. Mount Saint Antonio Community College (11-2)
126. Florida International (4-8)
127. Louisiana-Monroe (4-8)
128. Harvard (10-0)

And is the University of Laval (playing Canadian rules football) really better than Lafayette? So says Massey. And for the purposes of comparison, I'll skip the two JC's ranked alongside Georgetown in the Massey list, but hey, I guess the AI at Fresno City College isn't an issue...

Yes, there will be issues with any system. So I would take it with a grain of salt.

But do you not think that non-scholarship Marist doesn't recruit against D3 schools?

How much blending do you think there is between FBS programs and FCS programs? On a typical year, how many FCS teams do you think are able to be in a competitive game where they are able to beat any team ranked 100 or worse in FBS?


(For the record, I would put the number somewhere around 50 FCS programs that would be favorites in a matchup with any of the nearly 30 FBS teams outside the top-100.)

So, if there is a bell-shaped curve with available talent, wouldn't there be more blending the further you get away from the FBS national championship caliber teams? If there is significant blending of the FBS and FCS, then wouldn't there be more significant blending with the bottom of FCS and the majority of D2, NAIA, and D3 since this is where the bulk of talent would reside in the distribution of talent, given the bell shaped distribution?

I would be curious in knowing the record of the Pioneer League against programs outside of D1 in the last five or ten years. I know the Pioneer programs take their fair share of losses against those other divisions.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I would be curious in knowing the record of the Pioneer League against programs outside of D1 in the last five or ten years. I know the Pioneer programs take their fair share of losses against those other divisions.

Don't have a breakdown for five years, but last year the PFL's conference OOC record was:

vs. FBS: 0-1
vs. FCS: 4-15
vs. D-II, III, NAIA (not counting College of Faith): 12-4
vs. College of Faith: 1-0

I suspect that you'd find that the PFL has a winning record against sub-D-I teams, maybe even close to a 66% win rate. Similarly they almost certainly have a losing record against other FCS squads.

[Pinnum]

Don't have a breakdown for five years, but last year the PFL's conference OOC record was:

vs. FBS: 0-1
vs. FCS: 4-15
vs. D-II, III, NAIA (not counting College of Faith): 12-4
vs. College of Faith: 1-0

I suspect that you'd find that the PFL has a winning record against sub-D-I teams, maybe even close to a 66% win rate. Similarly they almost certainly have a losing record against other FCS squads.

Thanks for the info! That is a little better than I would have guessed.

Just looked through the PFL schedule and these are the best lower division teams the conference played. Most of the lower division teams they played were right around .500 level teams.


D-II
-NR Florida Tech beat Stetson 54-12
-NR St Joseph's (Indiana) beat Valparaiso 31-10

NAIA
-#6 Grand View beat Drake 45-22

D-III
-Butler beat #12 Wittenberg 22-16 (lost first round in D3 tournament)

[clenz]

Drake recruits against (and loses out too) D3 schools in Iowa for many a recruit.

[Model Citizen]

Maybe they're the ones who can't spell.

[Pinnum]

Last four years of PFL non-league games against non D1 programs.

2014
Stetson 35, Warner 16 (FINAL) Lake Wales, FL
Davidson 56, College of Faith 0 (FINAL) Davidson, NC
Grand View 45, Drake 22 (FINAL) Des Moines, IA
Morehead State 49, Pikeville 36 (FINAL) Morehead, KY
Catawba 35, Davidson 7 (FINAL) Davidson, NC
Drake 13, Truman State 7 (FINAL/OT) Des Moines, IA
Butler 22, Wittenberg 16 (FINAL) Springfield, OH
Florida Tech 54, Stetson 12 (FINAL) DeLand, FL
St. Joseph's (Ind.) 31, Valparaiso 10 (FINAL) Valparaiso, IN
Stetson 37, Birmingham-Southern 19 (FINAL) Birmingham, AL
Valparaiso 39, William Jewell 30 (FINAL) Liberty, MO
Butler 38, Taylor 3 (FINAL) Indianapolis, IN
Valparaiso 55, Missouri Baptist 7 (FINAL) Valparaiso, IN
Jacksonville 61, Limestone 10 (FINAL) Gaffney, SC
Campbell 66, Missouri Baptist 7 (FINAL) Buies Creek, NC

2013
Pikeville (Ky.) 13, Morehead State 10 Morehead, Ky.
Grand View 21, Drake 16 Des Moines, Iowa
Mercer 40, Reinhardt 37 Macon, Ga
Stetson 31, Warner 3 Deland, Fla.
St. Joseph's (Ind.) 34, Valparaiso 31 Rensselaer, Ind
Butler 49, Wittenberg 24 Indianapolis, Ind.
Campbell 56, Virginia-Wise 21 Buies Creek, N.C
Florida Tech 20, Stetson 13 Melbourne, Fla.
William Jewell 36, Valparaiso 34 Valparaiso, Ind.
Butler 31, Franklin 28 Franklin, Ind.
Mercer 61, Warner 0 Macon, Ga.
Lenoir-Rhyne 34, Davidson 18 Davidson, N.C
Jacksonville 69, Warner 16 Jacksonville, Fla.
Drake 31, Indianapolis 14 Des Moines, Iowa
Johnson C. Smith 35, Davidson 22
Mercer 43, Berry 0 Macon, Ga.
Birmingham-Southern 49, Stetson 34 Deland, Fla.
Mercer 54, Carnegie Mellon 21 Macon, Ga.

2012
Shorter 31, Campbell 20 (FINAL) Buies Creek, N.C.
Morehead State 55, Southern Virginia 0 (FINAL) Morehead, Ky.
St. Joseph's 36, Valparaiso 34 (FINAL) Valparaiso, Ind.
Drake 28, Grand View 8 (FINAL) Des Moines, Iowa
Campbell 10, Virginia-Wise 0 (FINAL) Buies Creek, N.C.
Butler 42, Franklin 13 (FINAL) Indianapolis, Ind.
Lenoir-Rhyne 20, Davidson 2 (FINAL) Hickory, N.C.
Jacksonville 33, Webber International 10 (FINAL) Jacksonville, Fla.

2011
Morehead State 67, Kentucky Christian 0 (FINAL) Morehead, Ky.
Butler 31, Albion 17 (FINAL) Indianapolis, Ind
Franklin 49, Valparaiso 35 (FINAL) Valparaiso, Ind.
San Diego 42, Azusa Pacific 40 (FINAL) Azusa, Calif.
Campbell 76, Apprentice 0 (FINAL) Buies Creek, N.C.
Davidson 28, Lenoir-Rhyne 10 (FINAL) Davidson, N.C.
Drake 28, Grand View 21 (FINAL (OT)) Des Moines, Iowa
San Diego 30, Western New Mexico 10 (FINAL) San Diego, Calif.
Butler 23, Taylor 5 (FINAL) Upland, Ind.
Drake 27, Missouri S&T 23 (FINAL) Des Moines, Iowa
Dayton 17, Central State 7 (FINAL) Wilberforce, Ohio
Davidson 35, Johnson C. Smith 7 (FINAL) Davidson, N.C.

2010
Butler 29, Albion 13 0 (FINAL) Albion, Mich.
Campbell 20, Virginia-Wise 16 0 (FINAL) Wise, Va.
Azusa Pacific 42, San Diego 14 0 (FINAL) San Diego, Calif.
Franklin 42, Valparaiso 7 0 (FINAL) Franklin, Ind.
Lenoir-Rhyne 41, Davidson 13 0 (FINAL) Hickory, N.C.
Drake 28, Missouri S&T 14 0 (FINAL) Rolla, Mo.
Butler 28, Taylor 20 0 (FINAL) Indianapolis, Ind.
Jacksonville 41, Webber International 0 0 (FINAL) Jacksonville, Fla.
St. Joseph's (Ind.) 50, Valparaiso 7 0 (FINAL) Valparaiso, Ind.
Dayton 45, Central State 13 0 (FINAL) Dayton, Ohi

[Go...gate]

Just a postscript....

Happened to run into the Marist Track and Field team today while having dinner at an Italian restaurant I frequent just outside Princeton. The coaches and kids were getting pizza and sandwiches for the trip back home (is this the week of the Penn Relays?).

I asked one of the coaches and a couple of the kids if there was any present discussion on campus about Marist joining the Patriot League. They all answered in the affirmative and seemed especially enthusiastic about the idea.

I'd like to add that the athletes (male and female) seemed like very impressive youngsters that any school would be proud to have.

[Fox 94]

Marist is a great school with still more untapped potential. I think the Patriot League is doing themselves a disservice by not getting them on board. Marist and the PL would both benefit.

[PAllen]

Honestly, if we're going to let American and Loyola in, I don't see the hold up on Marist.

[DFW HOYA]

Marist is a great school with still more untapped potential. I think the Patriot League is doing themselves a disservice by not getting them on board. Marist and the PL would both benefit.

Marist would benefit but some in the PL inner circle may see Marist another underfunded program ($1.033 M) in a league where $5-6 million football budgets will soon be expected within a few years. Conversely, another "M" school, Monmouth, is already spending $3.4 million but doesn't have the perceived academics that the Lehigh and Lafayettes would like to see; but, as correctly noted above, they let American and Loyola in, too.

I could see Marist joining as an insurance policy in the scenario that Fordham went CAA or Georgetown went independent*. Otherwise, I don't see the PL schools trading a guarantee game or an Ivy opponent for a seventh league game every season.

* - Or conversely, if Fordham went independent or Georgetown surprised everyone and went CAA, which would certainly be a lively topic all its own.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Marist has strong academics, and is getting even more selective. They have basically a brand-new stadium that can host 5,000 people in a nice on-campus spot right off the Hudson River, but it's kind of small. Their selectivity is higher than Fordham's - personally, I don't see that as an issue.

Monmouth has an intriguingly strong athletics department, with really strong hoops and a possible emerging football program. Their football facilities are a tad on the small side but their hoops is top-notch. However, they really need to get their selectivity up.

As always, Villanova, William and Mary, Richmond are seen as perfect PL candidates, yet we could all be dead by the time it becomes a serious consideration.

[Model Citizen]

...some in the PL inner circle may see Marist another underfunded program ($1.033 M) in a league where $5-6 million football budgets will soon be expected within a few years.

Good thing they have a RICH benefactor.

[hebmskebm]

Monmouth strikes me as trying to develop their athletics long-term to be more in the private school CAA mold (i.e. Hofstra before they dropped football) rather than as a PL school.

I think Marist will be in the PL if they fully commit to scholarship football, and won't be in the PL if they don't. It's a financial issue more than anything else.

[DFW HOYA]

Marist has strong academics, and is getting even more selective. They have basically a brand-new stadium that can host 5,000 people in a nice on-campus spot right off the Hudson River, but it's kind of small. Their selectivity is higher than Fordham's - personally, I don't see that as an issue.

Monmouth has an intriguingly strong athletics department, with really strong hoops and a possible emerging football program. Their football facilities are a tad on the small side but their hoops is top-notch. However, they really need to get their selectivity up. As always, Villanova, William and Mary, Richmond are seen as perfect PL candidates, yet we could all be dead by the time it becomes a serious consideration.

So how do these schools rank in two key metrics? Some of these may be a little surprising.

Admissions Rates (most to least competitive)

16%-Georgetown
26%-Colgate
29%-Bucknell
31%-Lehigh
31%-Richmond
33%-William & Mary
33%-Holy Cross
34%-Lafayette
38%-Marist
47%-Fordham
48%-Villanova
77%-Monmouth

Yield Rates (those that actually accept the offer, most to least competitive)

48%-Georgetown
40%-Bucknell
34%-Colgate
32%-William & Mary
31%-Lehigh
31%-Holy Cross
30%-Marist
28%-Lafayette
26%-Richmond
23%-Villanova
21%-Monmouth
11%-Fordham

[Bill]

77% acceptance rate for Monmouth? Ouch! (That is what you meant, correct DFW?)

[KPSUL]

So how do these schools rank in two key metrics? Some of these may be a little surprising.

Admissions Rates (most to least competitive)

16%-Georgetown
26%-Colgate
29%-Bucknell
31%-Lehigh
31%-Richmond
33%-William & Mary
33%-Holy Cross
34%-Lafayette
38%-Marist
47%-Fordham
48%-Villanova
77%-Monmouth

Yield Rates (those that actually accept the offer, most to least competitive)

48%-Georgetown
40%-Bucknell
34%-Colgate
32%-William & Mary
31%-Lehigh
31%-Holy Cross
30%-Marist
28%-Lafayette
26%-Richmond
23%-Villanova
21%-Monmouth
11%-Fordham

So what's Georgetown's acceptance rate for 5 and 4 Star Basketball Recruits?

[DFW HOYA]

So what's Georgetown's acceptance rate for 5 and 4 Star Basketball Recruits?

Irrelevant, of course, but much more competitive than you might think. A lot of basketball recruits are applying to a lot of schools for only three or four slots per year and a school can't take more than what the open scholarships offer.

What is interesting in those numbers is 1) Bucknell's admissions strength, 2) the relative competitiveness of Marist and 3) the pressure on Villanova's numbers.

Fordham's yield has been alongside St. John's for years--these schools have to accept a lot of kids to fill the class.

[RichH2]

Fascinating numbers DFW. May have to rethink my position on Marist. Monmouth's numbers are startling. More perhaps because I dont know much about them outside of football.

[clenz]

Acceptance rates, average SAT/ACT scores, admission rate, etc... are fun...and typically fake/deflated

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/beware-of-phony-college-acceptance-rates-151046381.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/us/led-by-stanfords-5-top-colleges-acceptance-rates-hit-new-lows.html?_r=0
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/20/17376664-caught-cheating-colleges-falsify-admissions-data-for-higher-rankings

I can keep going

[JMU2004]

Yea, see Liberty's supposed 22% admit rate. What a joke.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Aside from academics, the big plus about Marist, if they were to come to the Patriot League, would be their strong across-the-board athletics program. Men's basketball is pretty good, and women's basketball is a perennial top mid-major. They've won a lot of MAAC commissioner's cups, the same way Boston U. did as a member of America East. Crew, lacrosse, soccer and tennis are all very strong, and the Patriot League sponsors those sports and for sure they would be interested in having those.

The minus is that Marist would have to spend money on their FB program in multiple ways to catch up with the rest of the league, first by offering scholarships, and perhaps too in regards to facilities. Marist is an upper-level PFL team but still hasn't established itself to be good enough to win that league, so competitiveness in the PL would be a question, too.

The other minus is that having eleven teams is not ideal in any way for the other sports like basketball. Ideally Marist would come in with another school, preferably one with football as well.

[clenz]

Yea, see Liberty's supposed 22% admit rate. What a joke.
Yup...

They have 77,000 students - break that down to standard attricion rate, grad students, etc... I'll figure 17k per freshman class. That's roughly 85,000 applications per year.

I call bull****

[PAllen]

Yup...

They have 77,000 students - break that down to standard attricion rate, grad students, etc... I'll figure 17k per freshman class. That's roughly 85,000 applications per year.

I call bull****

Actually, that sounds about right as far as applicant numbers go. As much as liberals hate the place, evangelicals love it.

[clenz]

Actually, that sounds about right as far as applicant numbers go. As much as liberals hate the place, evangelicals love it.
There's litterally no way they can sort through that many applicants and actually get the best students.

They'd have to set the number at 22%, load the names into an excel sheet, randomize it's order and delete everything after line 17K, no matter who it is or how worthy they are

[DFW HOYA]

Yup...

They have 77,000 students - break that down to standard attricion rate, grad students, etc... I'll figure 17k per freshman class. That's roughly 85,000 applications per year.

Except that 24,000 are traditional students and another 23,000 are in online/distance learning. But the problem is the numbers are mixed together:

Applied 29,490
Accepted 5,966
Enrolled 12,645 (??)

http://www.petersons.com/college-search/liberty-university-000_10002508.aspx

[clenz]

Except that 24,000 are traditional students and another 23,000 are in online/distance learning. But the problem is the numbers are mixed together:

Applied 29,490
Accepted 5,966
Enrolled 12,645 (??)

http://www.petersons.com/college-search/liberty-university-000_10002508.aspx
Still need to apply and get accepted.

[The Boogie Down]

So how do these schools rank in two key metrics? Some of these may be a little surprising.

Admissions Rates (most to least competitive)

16%-Georgetown
26%-Colgate
29%-Bucknell
31%-Lehigh
31%-Richmond
33%-William & Mary
33%-Holy Cross
34%-Lafayette
38%-Marist
47%-Fordham
48%-Villanova
77%-Monmouth

Yield Rates (those that actually accept the offer, most to least competitive)

48%-Georgetown
40%-Bucknell
34%-Colgate
32%-William & Mary
31%-Lehigh
31%-Holy Cross
30%-Marist
28%-Lafayette
26%-Richmond
23%-Villanova
21%-Monmouth
11%-Fordham

Hey DFW, where do American and Loyola place in the above rankings? Seems like there was lots of grumbling when those two schools were admitted (BU as well although for different reasons) but back when I was applying to schools I coulda sworn they were both considered to be more prestigious than Marist. If I remember correctly Marist was known mostly for partying back then. This was over 20 years ago but do recall the nickname "Mattress College" being tossed around. Is my memory off or has Marist made great strides over the past two decades?

[bison137]

. Ideally Marist would come in with another school, preferably one with football as well.


Ideally Marist would come into the league and Boston U would be tossed out.

[Go...gate]

Ideally Marist would come into the league and Boston U would be tossed out.

For my money, Loyola should be the one to go.

[Sader87]

We'll leave and open a spot for Marist.......

[Go...gate]

You guys threatening to leave again?

Where would HC go?

[RichH2]

You guys threatening to leave again?

Where would HC go?
Gee,that is a mystery.xconfusedx xrolleyesx. Oh well another pint seems to be the right move now. xdrunkyx

[Go...gate]

Seriously - If HC left the PL, would they join the CAA (football) and the A-10 (basketball)?

[Ken_Z]

We'll leave and open a spot for Marist.......

you keep promising, but you never go away. please, just go.

[Gater]

I think Holy Cross wants to go here:

http://www.masseyratings.com/team.php?t=3304&s=41832

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I think Holy Cross wants to go here:

http://www.masseyratings.com/team.php?t=3304&s=41832

"click your heels three times..."

[Go...gate]

I think Holy Cross wants to go here:

http://www.masseyratings.com/team.php?t=3304&s=41832

Still believed by many to be the greatest I-AA/FCS team ever.

[Gater]

Just blowing out teams. Up 27-3 against Army at half. No other team got within 29 points.

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/13/sports/holy-cross-tricks-army.html

[Sader87]

You guys threatening to leave again?

Where would HC go?

AFC East....bettah travel....xdrunkyx

[clenz]

AFC East....bettah travel....xdrunkyx
NFL does playoffs.


You've made it pretty clear that Holy Cross wants no part of that.....which why they've intentionally sucked recently....you know, to to avoid the playoffs.

[Go...gate]

AFC East....bettah travel....xdrunkyx

Just make sure HC keeps the footballs inflated.....:D

[DFW HOYA]

Marist is a great school with still more untapped potential. I think the Patriot League is doing themselves a disservice by not getting them on board. Marist and the PL would both benefit.

Likelihood of the following teams in the PL for football in 2020:

Lehigh: 100%
Lafayette: 100%
Bucknell: 100%
Colgate: 100%
Holy Cross: 100%
Fordham: 95%
Georgetown: 65%
Marist: 35%
Monmouth: 20%
Davidson: 15%
Any NEC team: 15%
Villanova: 10%
Richmond: 2%
William & Mary: 1%
Army: 0%
Navy: 0%

[aceinthehole]

Likelihood of the following teams in the PL in 2020:

Army: 0%
Navy: 0%

I assume you meant "PL Football" - not just league membership.

I just don't see the Military Acadamies leaving the PL in other sports in the next 5 years.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I assume you meant "PL Football" - not just league membership.

I just don't see the Military Acadamies leaving the PL in other sports in the next 5 years.

By all accounts the academies are quite comfortable residing in the PL in all sports but football. Years ago I thought PL football could be a destination for the academies eventually, but I rapidly understood that will never happen for a lot of good reasons.

[Bill]

Can I bet "field" ? xthumbsupx

[Fordhamanhattan]

By the way, when one judges acceptance and yield, one must consider class size. Fordham has a much larger undergraduate student body than many of the Patriot League schools and as product of its location a much larger minority footprint.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've been looking at the overall numbers of athletic departments around FCS, including football expenses. Without going into all the detail, here's the whole thing netted out:

* Marist looks like a PL school academically, but they need to spend more on athletics (especially football) to look like a full PL member (and even then they'd be on the low end of other PL programs).

* Monmouth looks like a PL school in terms of athletic department size (albeit on the low end), but they need to become much more selective to look like a full PL member (and even then they'd be on the low end of other PL programs). I'd also lump Sacred Heart and Duquesne in this list.

* Villanova, William and Mary, Richmond, UNH, Delaware and perhaps Albany largely fit the profile of PL institutions but are already in a conference filled with peer institutions, more FCS playoff access, more men's hoops access, and local rivals.

* Furman fits perfectly into the profile of PL institutions but is too far south.

[Bill]

I

* Furman fits perfectly into the profile of PL institutions but is too far south.

I didn't think anyone could be too far south....hey, that reminds me. Where's Citdog been? Has he been hanging out with Bogie?

[Go...gate]

From another angle, should Georgetown elect to continue with their present stance on financial aid for football, why would schools like Marist and Davidson not be considered? The PL could simply maintain a "permissive" stance on football scholarships and let each institution do what it wants. For example, wasn't Bucknell not planning on granting a full 60 football scholarships? I thought their number was closer to 48.

[Sader87]

Likelihood of the following teams in the PL for football in 2020:

Lehigh: 100%
Lafayette: 100%
Bucknell: 100%
Colgate: 100%
Holy Cross: 100%
Fordham: 95%
Georgetown: 65%
Marist: 35%
Monmouth: 20%
Davidson: 15%
Any NEC team: 15%
Villanova: 10%
Richmond: 2%
William & Mary: 1%
Army: 0%
Navy: 0%

Interesting....I still maintain Nova goes PL in football at some point, maybe by 2020.

Richmond would be a good PL fit for football but I believe it's too "southern oriented"...I think it could rejoin the SoCon (same with W&M) down the road.

If GTown holds on in the scholly-era, the PL could have a nice 8-team league for football with "final games" of GTown-Villanova, Fordham-Holy Cross, Bucknell-Colgate and Lafayette-Lehigh.

I wouldn't want to see the PL get biggah than 8 schools for football. I like HC playing 7 league games, 2 or 3 Ivies, a CAA school and an FBS school most years.

[PAllen]

Interesting....I still maintain Nova goes PL in football at some point, maybe by 2020.

Richmond would be a good PL fit for football but I believe it's too "southern oriented"...I think it could rejoin the SoCon (same with W&M) down the road.

If GTown holds on in the scholly-era, the PL could have a nice 8-team league for football with "final games" of GTown-Villanova, Fordham-Holy Cross, Bucknell-Colgate and Lafayette-Lehigh.

I wouldn't want to see the PL get biggah than 8 schools for football. I like HC playing 7 league games, 2 or 3 Ivies, a CAA school and an FBS school most years.

Dead on 87

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As I've mentioned innumerable times, Villanova isn't leaving the CAA as long as Delaware is a part of that conference, and even then it's iffy.

[Go...gate]

As I've mentioned innumerable times, Villanova isn't leaving the CAA as long as Delaware is a part of that conference, and even then it's iffy.

Hard to imagine them coming over to the PL.

[Sader87]

Hard to imagine them coming over to the PL.

Not really...have many more peer institutions in GTown, Holy Cross and Fordham. Bettah travel etc.....I see CAA football "blowing up" in the not too distant future....it'll reconfigure like the old Yankee Conference...a lot of state schools in the Northeast.

[DFW HOYA]

I see CAA football "blowing up" in the not too distant future....it'll reconfigure like the old Yankee Conference...a lot of state schools in the Northeast.

And if Holy Cross or Colgate ever decided to go to the CAA, the PL would drop support of football per its bylaws, which require five all-sports members to field a sport. But realistically, both leagues aren't going anywhere. However, selling Villanova football on the Patriot League is like telling Fordham basketball to move back to the MAAC.

Monmouth, not Villanova, is the more likely new football-only entrant down the road.

[Fox 94]

Putting football aside what does Marist spend athletically vs PL schools?

[RichH2]

And if Holy Cross or Colgate ever decided to go to the CAA, the PL would drop support of football per its bylaws, which require five all-sports members to field a sport. But realistically, both leagues aren't going anywhere. However, selling Villanova football on the Patriot League is like telling Fordham basketball to move back to the MAAC.

Monmouth, not Villanova, is the more likely new football-only entrant down the road.
While W & M and Nova are my ideal,both are unlikely absent futher tremors in the CAA. Next up,IMO, Monmouth,Bryant Duquesne. All with issues. PL not wooing them and not likely to actively pursue football expansion without changes in the landscape making top choices either more available or totally unavailable.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Putting football aside what does Marist spend athletically vs PL schools?


While W & M and Nova are my ideal,both are unlikely absent futher tremors in the CAA. Next up,IMO, Monmouth,Bryant Duquesne. All with issues. PL not wooing them and not likely to actively pursue football expansion without changes in the landscape making top choices either more available or totally unavailable.

Athletic department expenses:
Marist: $13M
Bryant: $15M
Monmouth: $17M
Duquesne: $17M

Median Patriot League football school: $22M (with two years of football scholarships)

Much of this, I believe, is athletic-based scholarship aid. Not just football.

[DFW HOYA]

Athletic department expenses:
Marist: $13M
Bryant: $15M
Monmouth: $17M
Duquesne: $17M

Median Patriot League football school: $22M (with two years of football scholarships)

Much of this, I believe, is athletic-based scholarship aid. Not just football.

Adding onto this the other PL schools by overall budget:

American (no FB):$12.6
Lafayette: $16.9
Loyola (no FB): $17.4
Bucknell: $20.7
Colgate: $21.6
Holy Cross:$22.5
Lehigh $28.8
Fordham (FB only)$28.8
Boston (no FB) $30.6
Georgetown (FB only)$34.5

[Go...gate]

And if Holy Cross or Colgate ever decided to go to the CAA, the PL would drop support of football per its bylaws, which require five all-sports members to field a sport. But realistically, both leagues aren't going anywhere. However, selling Villanova football on the Patriot League is like telling Fordham basketball to move back to the MAAC.

Monmouth, not Villanova, is the more likely new football-only entrant down the road.

Never going to happen.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Not really...have many more peer institutions in GTown, Holy Cross and Fordham. Bettah travel etc.....I see CAA football "blowing up" in the not too distant future....it'll reconfigure like the old Yankee Conference...a lot of state schools in the Northeast.

Personally, after all the turmoil of the last ten years, I just don't see CAA Football imploding now. Even JMU which supposedly wants FBS badly can't find a new home. Not sure what you see for Northeastern publics because I don't see any new version of the Yankees Conference. Who would there be after Maine, UNH, URI, Albany and Stony Brook? I don't see UMass or UConn ever returning, the public schools left in NY (except Binghamton), NJ and PA are D-II or III and I sure don't see Binghamton or Vermont starting football programs. Oh yeah, I forgot Central CT, but that's still only six schools. You PL guys may like a six or seven team league, but I sure don't. And nobody is going to blow up CAAF for that six team league!

[RichH2]

Just to clarify a bit, neither PL ,nor its fans,are comfortable at 7 football members. While not searching to construct a mega conference,another football member is the primary issue.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Not in this thread Rich, but in another I've seen PL guys state they don't ever want more that seven league games because they want the flexibility to schedule a FBS, CAA and two Ivies. I think one of you guys even said they wanted five OOC games so they could also play a NEC school. As long as each PL school has two Ivy games in the bank, that works. I can't even count on our cross state Ivy playing UNH every year so I'll prefer eight league games along with not worrying about my AQ because one or two schools has a change in philosophy.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

You PL guys who dream about Villanova and Richmond joining are talking about only for football, correct? Without earth shattering changes in basketball, neither school is leaving their current all sports leagues. Wouldn't the PL be better off with another all sports with football member? Is there any better and more realistic candidate than Marist? I could see Monmouth and Duquesne in the discussion but again Duquesne isn't leaving the A-10 for all sports in the Patriot. Now if you have a crystal ball that shows the P5 breaking off and Villanova and Richmond opting out of the ensuing arms race then by all means carry on with plans to grab the Main Line Wildcats and the Spidahs.

[RichH2]

Not in this thread Rich, but in another I've seen PL guys state they don't ever want more that seven league games because they want the flexibility to schedule a FBS, CAA and two Ivies. I think one of you guys even said they wanted five OOC games so they could also play a NEC school. As long as each PL school has two Ivy games in the bank, that works. I can't even count on our cross state Ivy playing UNH every year so I'll prefer eight league games along with not worrying about my AQ because one or two schools has a change in philosophy.
We all like OOC flexibility but losing one to solidify PL as an AQ conference too important. If it were written in cement that GU or Fordham wouldn't bail, I probably would agree. Both are single sport affiliates. An academic discussion for now but the consequences of all the NCAA politics have yet to be felt. Heck,we may have more teams moving down than up in 5 years.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

You PL guys who dream about Villanova and Richmond joining are talking about only for football, correct? Without earth shattering changes in basketball, neither school is leaving their current all sports leagues. Wouldn't the PL be better off with another all sports with football member? Is there any better and more realistic candidate than Marist? I could see Monmouth and Duquesne in the discussion but again Duquesne isn't leaving the A-10 for all sports in the Patriot. Now if you have a crystal ball that shows the P5 breaking off and Villanova and Richmond opting out of the ensuing arms race then by all means carry on with plans to grab the Main Line Wildcats and the Spidahs.

I think the Patriot, for better or worse, is locked in with its current 10 all-sport members. Villanova, Richmond, Monmouth, Marist and Duquesne all already play football in a conference other than their all-sport conferences. Villanova is in the Big East, with PL football member Georgetown. Richmond and Duquesne are in the A-10 with PL football member Fordham. Marist and Monmouth are in the MAAC. Such transitions are much easier to pull off, but there seems to be no hurry here.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Adding onto this the other PL schools by overall budget:

American (no FB):$12.6
Lafayette: $16.9
Loyola (no FB): $17.4
Bucknell: $20.7
Colgate: $21.6
Holy Cross:$22.5
Lehigh $28.8
Fordham (FB only)$28.8
Boston (no FB) $30.6
Georgetown (FB only)$34.5

Thanks for the info, DFW. For all of the gnashing of teeth previously over some Lewisburg lag in athletic spending, Bucknell seems middle-of-the-road, especially when you consider that both Holy Cross and Colgate support ice hockey programs, traditionally a little more costly than your average varsity sport.