Best Coaching Jobs

[DFW HOYA]

Athlon Sports ranked the best coaching jobs in the ACC--not the best coach, not the best program, but the best situation for coaches to succeed. (FWIW, Syracuse finished near the bottom of the list.)

"Which program provides the most support?," it asked. "Which program has access to the best players? Which program has proven it can succeed at a high level over time? Which program has the most pressure to win?"

Here's the article for reference, but how do your rank teams in your conference in this regard?

http://athlonsports.com/college-football/ranking-accs-football-coaching-jobs-2015-expert-poll

[Sader87]

BC 12th of 14.....gotta love it xdrunkyx

Good question DFW.....I think the PL would all be a lot closer together than most football conferences, save perhaps for your alma mater with its current stance on football scholarships.

Top of my head:

1. Lehigh. Past success at the D2 and 1-AA levels have given the school a decent following/support etc. Good facilities. Being a university gives them advantages for potential 5th year if needed for players.

2t. Colgate. Past success, steady coaching ovah the years etc. Drawback: middle of nowhere

2t. Fordham. Strong admin support, forced the league to go scholly, NYC location. Drawback: facilities, NYC really not a college football area...particularly for FCS.

4t. Holy Cross. "Sleeping giant" (if such a thing can exist in the PL). Past success, potential for a decent following, facilities improving, future schedules include BC, Syracuse, UConn. Drawback: a lost generation and a half of HC fans amoungst alums and locals alike, an administration that has not been too favorable to athletics for 30+ years.

4t. Lafayette Tremendous facilities. Past tradition. Drawback: share many of the problems HC has or has had. An admin that hasn't been too supportive, being an undergraduate school like HC, may have trouble with 5th year players etc.

6. Bucknell. Great school but no real history of support for the football program ovah the years. Like Colgate, a somewhat isolated locale.

7. Georgetown. Another potential "sleeping giant" but until they offer scholarships, a program that will struggle to win 2 or 3 games every year going forward.

[Grizalltheway]

1. UM












All the rest.


:D

[dbackjon]

1. UM












All the rest.


:D

Wow you Griz fans are full of Stitt

[Sader87]

Curious to see your PL standings DFW......c'mon, you stahted this.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

MVFC

Best - NDSU

Worst - Missouri State

Criteria - Salary, facility, institutional support.

[Model Citizen]

The article asks, "Where would you want to coach if the slates (rosters, sanctions, etc.) were wiped clean and all ...jobs were available?"

Here is my take on the Pioneer.

1. San Diego - Recent winning records, support from the AD, and an attractive backdrop for recruiting. Aside from the Ivy League, there is limited competition for local non-scholarship talent.
2. Campbell - Much improved talent. The Camels seem to be moving rapidly toward scholarship football.
3. Jacksonville - Located in a talent rich region for recruiting, JU has traditionally been popular with kids from the Northeast. Relatively high pay. Not much pressure to recruit high achieving students.
4. Marist - Longevity of current coach is a testament to Marist's "easy come, easy go" approach. Periodic hints of future Patriot League membership might be intriguing to coaching candidates.
5. Drake - Lots of recruiting turf. Nice facilities. Administration doesn't burden its coaches with expectations of winning.
6. Butler - The school has decent facilities and plenty of name recognition. However, football looks like a club team in comparison to Butler basketball.
7. Dayton - Supportive atmosphere...but Dayton expects coaches to win and have the best students in the league.
8. Davidson - Best academics in the league. Excellent need-based aid. Key will be loosening football admissions.
9. Stetson - Too early to address program's potential, but its location will help recruiting.
10. Valparaiso - Decent academics. Unattractive location, despite proximity to Chicagoland. Liberalizing PFL aid rules would be a game changer for Valpo.
11. Morehead State - Seems like a tough place to recruit. Losing records + soft academics + pay your own way.

[Professor Chaos]

Interesting topic, I'd rate the MVFC like this:

1) NDSU - State flagship, university is hugely invested in the program, a lot of tradition and built-in financial support from a large base of boosters.
2) SDSU - State flagship, new facilities show the level of commitment (and capability) from boosters, university, and the state. Recent success since move up to D1 so the foundation is already in place.
3) UNI - Great tradition, invested fan base and university with a built-in foundation for success. Only downside is having to play little brother to Iowa and Iowa St
4) YSU - Great tradition and facilities but you have to deal with being the very small fish in Ohio St's pond.
5) Illinois St - Administration that's willing to invest in football based on stadium upgrade and FBS talk. Solid fan support and solid athletic department with success in the other big money sport (men's basketball) but you'll always be 2nd fiddle to the Illini (or 3rd fiddle if you include Notre Dame).
6) USD - Even though they're the clear 2nd fiddle to SDSU right now they're still a state flagship and SDSU's upgrades should push their administration and boosters to want to keep up. They've got nowhere to go but up really.
7) SIU - Good facilities with close proximity to some recruiting hotbeds and a tradition of success (although not much lately). For better or rose the administrator and supporters have an expectation of success.
8) MSU - Large university with plenty of resources and the capability of getting behind the program although they haven't really done that yet beyond a stadium upgrade. At least there's hope knowing that they can.
9) WIU - Easy access to two major metros (Chicago and St Louis) for recruiting purposes but very little support or tradition. Definitely a stepping stone job.
10) Indiana St - From an outsider's perspective football seems like an afterthought both in the minds of their administration and boosters for the most part although it's gotten better recently. I'd have to think most credible coaches would view this as a stepping stone job.

[DFW HOYA]

Curious to see your PL standings DFW......c'mon, you stahted this.

1. Lehigh: Best positioned to leverage its facilities, location, and fan base to give its coaches the opportunity for sustainable national success. Recruits well in PA which is a strong factor for consistent recruiting. Some pressure to win, more than most in the PL, but six titles since 2000 across three coaches is a mark of strength.

2. Lafayette: See Lehigh. Better facilities, a little less national name recognition, but less pressure-- a great job for a coach who wants to settle in long term and doesn't feel the pressure of winning every year (see Frank Tavani). Four titles in 10 years is enough to keep (most) fans happy.

3. Colgate: The Red Raiders haven't gone more than four years between PL titles since 1997, which says a lot for program consistency and coaching. Colgate carries name recognition with recruits and while its location is rural, it attracts its share of city kids as well. Facilities will increasingly be an issue as the recruiting steps up.

4. Fordham: Riding the crest of Joe Moorhead's run, it's surprising how little the school has done in capital projects building out the infrastructure for sustained success. Fordham remains behind most PL schools in training facilities and its home field would be the worst in the league, were it not for Georgetown. The good thing for coaches is that Fordham is willing to spend its way to the top and it has paid off in NFL-caliber prospects and opportunities for attracting top coaches.

5. Holy Cross: Forget the "good old days" talk--are there enough athletes in HC's region for a coach to be consistently successful? Outside of Harvard, many New England teams are struggling and the Crusaders don't have the brand they once had to recruit impact talent--not just to be a "good" PL team, but to be a Top 25 program. With one league title in the last 24 years, this may be the next head coaching vacancy in the league and HC needs to drive the next hire with better scheduling (done), better facilities (including discussing a renovated Fitton Field), and more regional impact.

6. Georgetown: More upside than any other PL team in terms of brand name, location, and education, but a meager fan base and facilities comparable to a city park drive it near the bottom. Georgetown has been at or near the bottom of the PL for most of its 15 years, and it's apparent that if Georgetown is to make a major move upward, it will be outside the Patriot League; neither the school nor the league seems interested in sitting down and seriously discussing the 60 scholarship gap that could overwhelm the Hoyas and diminish the PL's collective strength of schedule. That's a no-sell for many coaches interested in upward career mobility, but Georgetown gets points for job security during down years that most coaches do not enjoy.

7. Bucknell: Bucknell is the Wake Forest of the PL: the academics are good but don't have the visibility of the other core schools in the league. Lewisburg is is isolated without being quaint, and the fan base seems more predisposed to basketball every year. The Bison have one only one title in league history and not since 1996, the longest active streak in the league. For a coach, it's a tough sell given a brand that doesn't scream "football" and a lack of a natural rival (Leh-Laf) nor a national name (Colgate, Fordham) to build upon.

[Sader87]

^^^^^ Well put and thought out DFW, I expected no less.

If I do have a quibble it is your statement that New England football has been down. It's long been an under-rated recruiting region imo (ymmv) and a lot of the FCS NE teams have been pretty successful ovah the last 5-10 years beside John Harvard: UNH, Maine, Yale and Dartmouth are improving, Sacred Heart and Bryant have also made some noise lately.

HC also recruits on a very national scale...I actually think they overlook New England too much in this regard imo.

[DFW HOYA]

HC has tremendous upside over the next few years. If they can successfully recruit impact talent nationally, watch out.

[WestCoastAggie]

OVC

Best: Jax. State

Worst: Austin Peay

MEAC

Best: A&T/Bethune-Cookman/Hampton

Worst: Savannah State/FAMU

[catbob]

Montana
- Best tradition, no FBS teams anywhere near to compete with. Somewhat challenging to recruit kids to MT. Best stadium.
Montana State
- Same as Montana, only not as good of tradition (there I said it Griz fans). 2nd best stadium.

It's worth nothing that UM and MSU may be the only two schools in the conference where there is significant pressure to win, moreso at UM than MSU.

Eastern Washington
- Tradition is really on the rise (might be tops in the Sky right now), but the facilities, stadium, and town all leave things to be desired. Close to Wazzou, but has Spokane area nearby to recruit from.
Cal Poly
- Beautiful campus, nice stadium (alebit small), great academics. Lots of talent in CA, but lots of competition for it. Good tradition.
UC Davis
- Would normally be above Poly but their team has really fallen off the map. But a huge endowment, beautiful campus and stadium keep them high on the list. Great academics as well.
NAU
- I can't put NAU down any lower, because they have a pretty good tradition down there, more than the rest of the Sky teams on the list. I don't like any dome stadiums, but NAU is always in the hunt for the BSC title, the dome doesn't completely suck as far as domes go, and Flagstaff is a beautiful area, and there is pretty good talent in AZ, but most gets plucked by ASU and U of A.
Weber State
- Beautiful area, basketball program helps give the school more notoriety than your average Sky school so that helps recruiting. They have good years, they have terrible years, but the school supports the football team. Surprisingly decent stadium with good FCS capacity, but it rarely fills up.
Sacramento State
- At this point, none of the teams left have very good football tradition, at least not in recent memory. So I'd choose Sac because of the large enrollment, metro area makes recruiting easier even though there is a lot of competition, and they have one of the bigger stadiums in FCS even though they never fill it. The right coach could really turn Sac into a powerhouse, but they are an afterthought in the sports market.
North Dakota
- A one time D2 power, the transition to FCS has not been smooth. They have one of the nicer domes in FCS, and good fan support, when they are winning. Recruiting to ND may be difficult but NDSU has proven they can.
Portland State
- Nice facilities, albeit it shared. Good historical tradition but haven't had success for quite a long time. Nice location for the stadium, and they should be able to draw good crowds but PSU is a commuter school, and Portland doesn't care about them. Glanville showed that the support could be there, but he didn't field a winner so it quickly dwindled.
Idaho State
- Hard to put them so far down on the list, as they've had good teams over the years. But the dome sucks, and it isn't easy to recruit to Poky.
SUU
- Not much tradition yet, but they have a decent stadium (tiny) and nice field turf, and the administration has shown it cares about the football team. Nice area, but pretty remote. Could be worse... which leads me to:
Northern Colorado
- High school stadium, with little fan support, in a town that smells like cow *****. Sorry it is harsh UNC fans but there isn't much to desire at that job.

[clenz]

MVFC

Best - NDSU

Worst - Missouri State

Criteria - Salary, facility, institutional support.
Indiana State is the worst...not even freaking close.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Indiana State is the worst...not even freaking close.

There were at least people at the ISU game I went to a couple years ago. Mo State was pathetic and a coach the quality of Terry Allen should have been making more than 108k a season.

Sanford is making 180k.

[UCMoc]

SoCon

Best: Chattanooga. Huesman has consistently redshirted about 75% of his freshman classes, so the cubbard won't be bare should he leave. Leading home attendance in the SoCon. (It's a total homer pick. I'm not sorry.)

Worst: VMI. On the plus side, nobody really expects to win.

Rising: Mercer. The level of support that they have early, and the access to athletes in Georgia are both very high.

Falling: Furman. Fan expectations are consistently high, and in the era of Oregon and their ten thousand uniform combinations, it's tough to get anyone other than the New Power Generation to wear that much purple.

[DFW HOYA]

Northern Colorado
- High school stadium, with little fan support

Nottingham Field would be a top-tier stadium back East:

http://image2.stadiumjourney.com/images/stadiums/1781_Nottingham_Field_Interior.jpg

[PaladinNation]

SoCon

Best: Chattanooga. Huesman has consistently redshirted about 75% of his freshman classes, so the cubbard won't be bare should he leave. Leading home attendance in the SoCon. (It's a total homer pick. I'm not sorry.)

Worst: VMI. On the plus side, nobody really expects to win.

Rising: Mercer. The level of support that they have early, and the access to athletes in Georgia are both very high.

Falling: Furman. Fan expectations are consistently high, and in the era of Oregon and their ten thousand uniform combinations, it's tough to get anyone other than the New Power Generation to wear that much purple.

A couple points to support an alternate POV.

I would give Furman the nod for these reasons and it could be homer influenced as well.

#1 Furman's Football History. We have a National Championship.
#2 Furman the School. New prez and tightening up what FU delivers to Students, will only increase the education value.
#3 Greenville, SC. Just follow the hashtag #YeahThatGreenville and I think you will be surprise. Gville is becoming a major asset for Furman in recruiting students.
#4 The players that Furman attracts are a coaches dream, think that will bear fruit in 2016 when we get some youngsters PT.
#5 The Diamond F and Purple… best brand asset in the conference.

All that aside… lots of great coaching gigs in the SoCon.
Chatty is attractive, still the town feels old to me.
Citadel has Charleston, has tradition, has great support, but its not for everyone.
Woffy has a sugardaddy, but is location in Sparkle City, guessing they'll need to take recruits to downtown Gville :-)
Mercer doesn't need to worry about this for a while, we'll see what happens if BL doesn't fulfill high expectations
Western is a sleepy but interesting opportunity, but a coach has to sale the Wee.
VMI should IMO be a better gig than The Citadel, IMO it would be an honor to go to school there.
Samford is another very good school, we'll see how Hatcher does.
ETSU has won before, but right now my guess is this is the least attractive coaching job, hell they shut the doors on the program once, what are the expectations?

[clenz]

There were at least people at the ISU game I went to a couple years ago. Mo State was pathetic and a coach the quality of Terry Allen should have been making more than 108k a season.

Sanford is making 180k.It's a one sided stadium, it's always going to look like people are there. It wasn't 4 or 5 years ago that they had maybe a couple hundred people at a game. They aren't far from that being their reality again. ISUb is the worst, non HBCU, full scholly program in the nation. Don't let their first playoff appearance in nearly 30 years sway you from thinking they are all of a sudden not a pit hole of a program.

[FargoBison]

There were at least people at the ISU game I went to a couple years ago. Mo State was pathetic and a coach the quality of Terry Allen should have been making more than 108k a season.

Sanford is making 180k.

Their new coach is making $270k base and has an upgraded stadium.

Indiana State is the worst job, only other job close might be USD.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

It's a one sided stadium, it's always going to look like people are there. It wasn't 4 or 5 years ago that they had maybe a couple hundred people at a game. They aren't far from that being their reality again. ISUb is the worst, non HBCU, full scholly program in the nation. Don't let their first playoff appearance in nearly 30 years sway you from thinking they are all of a sudden not a pit hole of a program.

the program means little. It said coaching jobs. They pay **** which is always #1 on the list for a job. As for their one sided stadium. Plaster Field could just as easily be one sided, the only people on the "students' side were the band. We even slipped over there at halftime to be closer to our guys.

- - - Updated - - -


Their new coach is making $270k base and has an upgraded stadium.

Indiana State is the worst job, only other job close might be USD.

That's a bunch of ****. That's 2.5 times what they were paying TA.

[catbob]

Nottingham Field would be a top-tier stadium back East:

http://image2.stadiumjourney.com/images/stadiums/1781_Nottingham_Field_Interior.jpg


Yikes.

After doing a bit of comparison, I might actually think Nottingham Field is better than Eccles Coliseum (SUU). Both about the same capacity, both bland looking bleachers, SUU has field turn, UNC has better pressboxes.

[clenz]

the program means little. It said coaching jobs. They pay **** which is always #1 on the list for a job. As for their one sided stadium. Plaster Field could just as easily be one sided, the only people on the "students' side were the band. We even slipped over there at halftime to be closer to our guys.

- - - Updated - - -



That's a bunch of ****. That's 2.5 times what they were paying TA.
Total support goes beyond just coaches pay.

Indiana State doesn't have it.

MSU is dumping all kind of money into the program to get an FBS invite.
ISU is crowd funding uniforms for other sports and spending almost nothing on football.

MSU has an athletic budget nearly 4 million higher than ISU and nearly a half million more in ticket revenue.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Total support goes beyond just coaches pay.

Indiana State doesn't have it.

MSU is dumping all kind of money into the program to get an FBS invite.
ISU is crowd funding uniforms for other sports and spending almost nothing on football.

MSU has an athletic budget nearly 4 million higher than ISU and nearly a half million more in ticket revenue.

They are both basketball schools who give zero ****s about football. It's window dressing.

[clenz]

They are both basketball schools who give zero ****s about football. It's window dressing.
Yep....


yet one of them spends millions more on football than the other.

[FargoBison]

That's a bunch of ****. That's 2.5 times what they were paying TA.

I think they finally realized that if you want to win, you need spend some money. I am not sure if ISUB has that ability though, that program could fold if they go back into the tank. Especially if the basketball arm's race continues to heat up.

[WileECoyote06]

A good question. I'd rank the MEAC as so, and this is solely my opinion.

1. Florida A&M - One of the most storied programs in the conference, good facilities, a well-regarded curriculum and alumni network, a large enrollment and supportive fan base, and Florida recruiting advantages
2. North Carolina A&T - A&T is the king of Greensboro; large media market; well-regarded curriculum and alumni network, good facilities, a large enrollment and supportive fan base.
3. Hampton - Beautiful campus and facilities, good alumni network, fertile recruiting area, large media market
4. Bethune-Cookman - Great location, fertile recruiting area, recent success
5. SC State - fertile recruiting area, rabid fans, questions about academic status, governance, and town-gown relations; small enrollment storied program keeps it higher on the list
6. Morgan State - historic program; decent facilities, huge media market, well-regarded curriculum and alumni network,
7. NC Central - large media market; well-regarded curriculum and alumni network, lacking facilities, recent success, little brother syndrome with ACC schools in its backyard
8. Howard - sleeping giant, great location, lacking facilities, highly regarded curriculum and alumni network, a large enrollment, huge media market, institution doesn't seem committed to football
9. Norfolk State - fertile recruiting area, nice facilities, large media market; little brother syndrome with ODU, Hampton, W&M;
10. Savannah State - sleeping giant. Great facilities, fertile recruiting, great location
11. Delaware State - institutional commitment to sports, little brother-syndrome with Delaware, Monmouth, and Villanova, small enrollment, small media market

[PaladinFan]

SoCon

Best: Chattanooga. Huesman has consistently redshirted about 75% of his freshman classes, so the cubbard won't be bare should he leave. Leading home attendance in the SoCon. (It's a total homer pick. I'm not sorry.)

Worst: VMI. On the plus side, nobody really expects to win.

Rising: Mercer. The level of support that they have early, and the access to athletes in Georgia are both very high.

Falling: Furman. Fan expectations are consistently high, and in the era of Oregon and their ten thousand uniform combinations, it's tough to get anyone other than the New Power Generation to wear that much purple.

I disagree. Furman's fans have historically been pretty laid back. Furman coach gets a great city to live in, new facilities, beautiful campus, and a strong alumni and recruiting network.

I think UTC has more advantages. Great city, but the academics are not as rigorous as other SoCon schools, recruiting is easier, and they have become a soft landing spot for a lot of transfers. Fan base traditionally has low expectations.

I agree Mercer is "rising." Has a strong fan base and (I would wager) an athletic budget that dwarfs the rest of the SoCon schools. They do not have the intangible benefits of Furman or Samford (campus, city), but they are dead center in one of the most fertile recruiting areas in the country.

[clenz]

I think they finally realized that if you want to win, you need spend some money. I am not sure if ISUB has that ability though, that program could fold if they go back into the tank. Especially if the basketball arm's race continues to heat up.
Even within the MVC ISU is well behind.

Their arena, while larger, is a dumb.
Their funding is well below the rest of the MVC.
They crowd funded basketball uniforms this past season.
They have the second lowest paid coach in the MVC

Ben Jacobson, N. Iowa $1,00,000
Dan Muller, Illinois State $401,200
Paul Lusk, Missouri State $305,333
Barry Hinson, Southern Illinois $325,000
Greg Lansing, Indiana State $219-262,000 (not sure)
Ray Giacoletti, Drake $400-450,000
Marty Simmons, Evansville $180-200,000
Brian Wardle, Bradley ~$700,000 (based on what Ford started at)
Porter Moser, Loyola ~$150-250,000


Gregg Marshall (Wichita State) - $3.3M
Ben Jacobson (UNI) - $1m
Brian Wardle (Bradley) - ~$700,000 (private school and new hire, never completely announced but "rumored" value)
Ray Giacoletti (Drake) - ~$475,000 (private school but "rumors" have him around this number)
Dan Muller (Illinois State) -$401,000
Barry Hinson (Southern Illinois) - $350,000
Porter Moser (Loyola) - ~$250,000 (private school but "rumored" to be about this number)
Paul Lusk (Missouri State) - $241,000

Greg Lansing (Indiana State) - $219,000
Marty Simmons (Evansville) - $180,000 (private school but "rumored" to be about this number)


As the MVC continues it's resurgence in basketball ISUb is going to feel the pressure, hard, to do something. Football is going to suffer, big time, from it.

The reality is Indiana State football was saved by a new AD coming in that didn't hate football. That isn't going send an influx of cash to the program, just turn the hemorrhage into a slow bleed.

[clenz]

I think they finally realized that if you want to win, you need spend some money. I am not sure if ISUB has that ability though, that program could fold if they go back into the tank. Especially if the basketball arm's race continues to heat up.
Also on my previous note...


MVFC salaries (best I could find)

Mark Farley (UNI) - $343,000
Brock Spack (ISUr) - $270,000
Dave Steckel (MSU) - $270,000
Chris Klieman (NDSU) - $261,000
Dale Lennon (SIU) - $216,000
Bob Nielson (WIU) - $206,000
Mike Sanford (ISUb) - $188,00
John Stiegelmeier (SDSU) - $160,000
Bo Pelini (YSU) - $150,000 (though a major * needs to be placed by this number...Walford was between 250-300 his last year)
Joe Glenn (USD) - $131,000

ISUb is bailed out by the only program that might..maybe..be worse than them and SDSU getting the best deal in college football. They will have to their next coach well over 225-250 to maintain current level.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Also on my previous note...


MVFC salaries (best I could find)

Mark Farley (UNI) - $343,000
Brock Spack (ISUr) - $270,000
Dave Steckel (MSU) - $270,000
Chris Klieman (NDSU) - $261,000
Dale Lennon (SIU) - $216,000
Bob Nielson (WIU) - $206,000
Mike Sanford (ISUb) - $188,00
John Stiegelmeier (SDSU) - $160,000
Bo Pelini (YSU) - $150,000 (though a major * needs to be placed by this number...Walford was between 250-300 his last year)
Joe Glenn (USD) - $131,000

ISUb is bailed out by the only program that might..maybe..be worse than them and SDSU getting the best deal in college football. They will have to their next coach well over 225-250 to maintain current level.

Is Farley's with incentives and media?

[clenz]

Is Farley's with incentives and media?
That's base.

He doesn't have a ton of incentives - only takes him to about 380.

[catbob]

Also on my previous note...


MVFC salaries (best I could find)

Mark Farley (UNI) - $343,000
Brock Spack (ISUr) - $270,000
Dave Steckel (MSU) - $270,000
Chris Klieman (NDSU) - $261,000
Dale Lennon (SIU) - $216,000
Bob Nielson (WIU) - $206,000
Mike Sanford (ISUb) - $188,00
John Stiegelmeier (SDSU) - $160,000
Bo Pelini (YSU) - $150,000 (though a major * needs to be placed by this number...Walford was between 250-300 his last year)
Joe Glenn (USD) - $131,000

ISUb is bailed out by the only program that might..maybe..be worse than them and SDSU getting the best deal in college football. They will have to their next coach well over 225-250 to maintain current level.

Damn, the Big Sky is way behind in salaries. Stitt at UM reportedly will make 175 base, Ash makes about 177, Baldwin (EWU) 166. Ron Gould at UC Davis makes 235.

UNC Ernest Collins Jr makes 107...

[mango433]

Also on my previous note...


MVFC salaries (best I could find)

Mark Farley (UNI) - $343,000
Brock Spack (ISUr) - $270,000
Dave Steckel (MSU) - $270,000
Chris Klieman (NDSU) - $261,000
Dale Lennon (SIU) - $216,000
Bob Nielson (WIU) - $206,000
Mike Sanford (ISUb) - $188,00
John Stiegelmeier (SDSU) - $160,000
Bo Pelini (YSU) - $150,000 (though a major * needs to be placed by this number...Walford was between 250-300 his last year)
Joe Glenn (USD) - $131,000

ISUb is bailed out by the only program that might..maybe..be worse than them and SDSU getting the best deal in college football. They will have to their next coach well over 225-250 to maintain current level.

Stiegelmeier is at $190,00 and Glenn is just over $141,000

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Damn, the Big Sky is way behind in salaries. Stitt at UM reportedly will make 175 base, Ash makes about 177, Baldwin (EWU) 166. Ron Gould at UC Davis makes 235.

UNC Ernest Collins Jr makes 107...

Klieman made 362k last year with all his bonuses. Although these days that should just be considered already in the bank. :D

[Sader87]

Let's take this a step farther, shall we??? Irrespective of conference, what are the 10 best FCS coaching jobs in the country??? Criteria being essentially the same as the league ranking criteria but feel free to add miscellaneous other factors.

Top of the noggin' I'd go:

1. Harvard World-wide recognition. Excellent facilities/stadium. I'm sure the pay is good. No real pressure to go 10-0 every year. Cons: recruiting somewhat tough, not much recognition in a Patriots/BC region.

2. North Dakota St On an amazing run. Facilities are good. Tremendous local support. Cons: A bit of a back-water (sorry) particularly if you come from the Coasts.

3. Montana Essentially see above with ND St

4. Yale/Princeton Essentially see Harvard above. Hard to separate the two.

5. Richmond Good tradition. New stadium/facilities. Good recruiting area. Cons: maybe recruiting to an academic school.

6. Liberty Tremendous facilities. Good support from admin. Cons: Could be tough to recruit due to the type of school it is.

7. JMU A lot like Liberty above minus the religious component.

8. Northern Iowa A school committed to high level athletics. I'm assuming good facilities. Good local support it seems. Cons: Again, sort of a back-water to some.

9. UNH Lot of tradition/success, particularly in the 21st Century. New stadium being built. Good local support in general though not great.

10. San Diego C'mon even if you're losing, you're getting paid to be in San Diego.

Bit of a Coastal bias in my list, I fully realize. Again, not saying these are the 10 best programs to coach....just the 10 best places to be a head coach to possibly win at, buld a successful program.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Let's take this a step farther, shall we??? Irrespective of conference, what are the 10 best FCS coaching jobs in the country??? Criteria being essentially the same as the league ranking criteria but feel free to add miscellaneous other factors.

Top of the noggin' I'd go:

1. Harvard World-wide recognition. Excellent facilities/stadium. I'm sure the pay is good. No real pressure to go 10-0 every year. Cons: recruiting somewhat tough, not much recognition in a Patriots/BC region.

2. North Dakota St On an amazing run. Facilities are good. Tremendous local support. Cons: A bit of a back-water (sorry) particularly if you come from the Coasts.

3. Montana Essentially see above with ND St

4. Yale/Princeton Essentially see Harvard above. Hard to separate the two.

5. Richmond Good tradition. New stadium/facilities. Good recruiting area. Cons: maybe recruiting to an academic school.

6. Liberty Tremendous facilities. Good support from admin. Cons: Could be tough to recruit due to the type of school it is.

7. JMU A lot like Liberty above minus the religious component.

8. Northern Iowa A school committed to high level athletics. I'm assuming good facilities. Good local support it seems. Cons: Again, sort of a back-water to some.

9. UNH Lot of tradition/success, particularly in the 21st Century. New stadium being built. Good local support in general though not great.

10. San Diego C'mon even if you're losing, you're getting paid to be in San Diego.

Bit of a Coastal bias in my list, I fully realize. Again, not saying these are the 10 best programs to coach....just the 10 best places to be a head coach to possibly win at, buld a successful program.

I'll give you MT & NDSU being back water but need to ask why this matters as far as a coach? Are you referring to toughness to recruit to? As far as a place to live I'd say there as many coaches that would rather have this than that no matter which way you go with it being a place to live for their family.

[clenz]

I'll give you MT & NDSU being back water but need to ask why this matters as far as a coach? Are you referring to toughness to recruit to? As far as a place to live I'd say there as many coaches that would rather have this than that no matter which way you go with it being a place to live for their family.
How is Cedar Falls back water?

I can kind of understand NDSU and the Montana schools but UNI is a nearly completely central location (roughly 4 hours) from MPLS, Chicago, STL and KC.

I get that to you coasters anything more than 25 miles away is a long trip and back water, but damn

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I'll give you MT & NDSU being back water but need to ask why this matters as far as a coach? Are you referring to toughness to recruit to? As far as a place to live I'd say there as many coaches that would rather have this than that no matter which way you go with it being a place to live for their family.

With a metropolitan population of 230,000, Fargo is hardly backwater. It's at the crossroads of two major interstates.




As for Harvard, ask Chris Klieman if he'd take the Harvard job. 300 miles outside of Boston it doesn't really matter.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

How is Cedar Falls back water?

I can kind of understand NDSU and the Montana schools but UNI is a nearly completely central location (roughly 4 hours) from MPLS, Chicago, STL and KC.

I get that to you coasters anything more than 25 miles away is a long trip and back water, but damn

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Who are you talking to? I didn't mention UNI.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

With a metropolitan population of 230,000, Fargo is hardly backwater. It's at the crossroads of two major interstates.




As for Harvard, ask Chris Klieman if he'd take the Harvard job. 300 miles outside of Boston it doesn't really matter.

Oh for ****s sake. Ok, that's huge and directly in the center of it all.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

With a metropolitan population of 230,000, Fargo is hardly backwater. It's at the crossroads of two major interstates.




As for Harvard, ask Chris Klieman if he'd take the Harvard job. 300 miles outside of Boston it doesn't really matter.


OK, that's a perspective... but really?

I live in Albuquerque. Two interstates cross here. Metro population about 700K. Backwater? Dunno, but at times it can be the middle of nowhere. I have been to Fargo and would go back again. Where do those interstates go?

Fargo is a fine place but trying to dismiss Harvard and Boston is a stretch. Harvard and Boston are, however, an acquired taste and you can live a fine, full, happy and prosperous life without visiting Cambridge.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

OK, that's a perspective... but really?

I live in Albuquerque. Two interstates cross here. Metro population about 700K. Backwater? Dunno, but at times it can be the middle of nowhere. I have been to Fargo and would go back again. Where do those interstates go?

Fargo is a fine place but trying to dismiss Harvard and Boston is a stretch. Harvard and Boston are, however, an acquired taste and you can live a fine, full, happy and prosperous life without visiting Cambridge.

Those interstates go to Seattle, Minneapolis, Chicago, Detroit, Omaha, Winnipeg, Kansas City where it merges with the interstate going to Oklahoma City and Dallas.

This thread is about football coaching.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Oh for ****s sake. Ok, that's huge and directly in the center of it all.

Believe me, now that I live in a town much smaller, there is stuff in Fargo I now have to drive to Topeka or KC to get. That is a pain in the ass.

[FargoBison]

When I think backwater places like Macomb, Cedar City and Vermillion come to mind....not Fargo, Missoula or Cedar Falls but that is from Midwestern perspective.

[SUPharmacist]

Why do we have to call any of these places backwaters. Different places for different people, I think the level of support from the community would be quite important when picking a job.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Why do we have to call any of these places backwaters. Different places for different people, I think the level of support from the community would be quite important when picking a job.

Why take any sort of offense to it though. Some guy that lives where I wouldn't wait one second to move and get back to my backwater area doesn't mean dick to me. Call it whatever, I know what it is and if that's backwater then good enough for me. It's small and out of the way...sounds pretty f'n good to me. To have the lack of population and still pull top of the FCS level crowds, even better.

It has little or nothing to do with what makes a place great for a coach unless you happen to know what a particular coach likes that's the part that is dumb about it if anything.

[Sader87]

I knew I'd take shots on the "backwatah" phrasing, rightfully so lol.....not a slight just a "con" on how it might it might be a hindrance for recruiting in general.

Obviously it hasn't hurt ND State, Montana or Northern Iowa in that regard....but I was trying to give "pro's and con's" for these "best coaching positions."

I admitted my "East Coast bias" when quickly doing this....what do others have for a National Top 10??? Willing to wager many of my Top 10 would also be in other's Top 10.

[Go...gate]

HC has tremendous upside over the next few years. If they can successfully recruit impact talent nationally, watch out.

I agree.

[Bisonoline]

Why take any sort of offense to it though. Some guy that lives where I wouldn't wait one second to move and get back to my backwater area doesn't mean dick to me. Call it whatever, I know what it is and if that's backwater then good enough for me. It's small and out of the way...sounds pretty f'n good to me. To have the lack of population and still pull top of the FCS level crowds, even better.

It has little or nothing to do with what makes a place great for a coach unless you happen to know what a particular coach likes that's the part that is dumb about it if anything.

Backwater is a perception coming from some one that is ignorant of the area. No biggie to me if they want to make themselves look snooty.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I knew I'd take shots on the "backwatah" phrasing, rightfully so lol.....not a slight just a "con" on how it might it might be a hindrance for recruiting in general.

Obviously it hasn't hurt ND State, Montana or Northern Iowa in that regard....but I was trying to give "pro's and con's" for these "best coaching positions."

I admitted my "East Coast bias" when quickly doing this....what do others have for a National Top 10??? Willing to wager many of my Top 10 would also be in other's Top 10.

Personally I think your top 10 is pretty tight but I know you guys consider things like Harvard or where you went to school as some big deal but out here most of that means zero or next to nothing. Just a real cultural difference or at least the schools that are trumpeted are different for the most part. I mean we all know of Harvard and so forth but the reverance just isn't there as it may be for some younger kids on the E. coast. For those reasons, again, depending on the coach I wouldn't think that big a deal and could see NDSU or Montana also holding more sway due to the opportunity for success in the playoffs so in my estimation Harvard drops two spots.

[FargoBison]

Hard for me to put Harvard at #1 since they are stuck so deeply in the past. If they competed for the title it would be an elite job but they don't. As an FCS fan Ivy League football has no meaning at all to me. Not sure if it would even be top 10.

[Sader87]

Again, the most basic element in this is the "best coaching job you would take to win".....the reason I have Harvard as #1 ovah NDSU, Montana and others is all the built-in advantages Harvard has to win in the Ivy League: more financial aid than almost all Ivies, its reputation which helps recruiting, its relative easy schedule to consistently win 8, 9 or 10 games in a 10 game schedule etc.

I'm not saying Harvard is the best FCS program in the country....just that it is currently set up as the best program to win at year in and year out.

[FargoBison]

Again, the most basic element in this is the "best coaching job you would take to win".....the reason I have Harvard as #1 ovah NDSU, Montana and others is all the built-in advantages Harvard has to win in the Ivy League: more financial aid than almost all Ivies, its reputation which helps recruiting, its relative easy schedule to consistently win 8, 9 or 10 games in a 10 game schedule etc.

I'm not saying Harvard is the best FCS program in the country....just that it is currently set up as the best program to win at year in and year out.

The problem with Harvard is that the place has such a low ceiling. The best you can do is win your conference and beat your rival. That is small potatoes stuff to me.

As a coach the bubble Harvard lives in wouldn't be attractive at all to me. I would rather coach at Lehigh or Fordham or even Holy Cross.

[Twentysix]

I don't know if any of the coaching spots in the FCS are good enough to be a lifetime commitment for any of the coaches. But NDSU/UM certainly present a lot of opportunity for their coaches.

- - - Updated - - -


The problem with Harvard is that the place has such a low ceiling. The best you can do is win your conference and beat your rival. That is small potatoes stuff to me.

As a coach the bubble Harvard lives in wouldn't be attractive at all to me. I would rather coach at Lehigh or Fordham or even Holy Cross.

At the same time, Harvard is one of the few FCS schools that could legitimately compete for a BCS title should they want to. They self-inflict an unbelievable amount of restriction on their football team.

[Catatonic]

Let's take this a step farther, shall we??? Irrespective of conference, what are the 10 best FCS coaching jobs in the country??? Criteria being essentially the same as the league ranking criteria but feel free to add miscellaneous other factors.

Top of the noggin' I'd go:

1. Harvard World-wide recognition. Excellent facilities/stadium. I'm sure the pay is good. No real pressure to go 10-0 every year. Cons: recruiting somewhat tough, not much recognition in a Patriots/BC region.

2. North Dakota St On an amazing run. Facilities are good. Tremendous local support. Cons: A bit of a back-water (sorry) particularly if you come from the Coasts.

3. Montana Essentially see above with ND St

4. Yale/Princeton Essentially see Harvard above. Hard to separate the two.

5. Richmond Good tradition. New stadium/facilities. Good recruiting area. Cons: maybe recruiting to an academic school.

6. Liberty Tremendous facilities. Good support from admin. Cons: Could be tough to recruit due to the type of school it is.

7. JMU A lot like Liberty above minus the religious component.

8. Northern Iowa A school committed to high level athletics. I'm assuming good facilities. Good local support it seems. Cons: Again, sort of a back-water to some.

9. UNH Lot of tradition/success, particularly in the 21st Century. New stadium being built. Good local support in general though not great.

10. San Diego C'mon even if you're losing, you're getting paid to be in San Diego.

Bit of a Coastal bias in my list, I fully realize. Again, not saying these are the 10 best programs to coach....just the 10 best places to be a head coach to possibly win at, buld a successful program.

Two thoughts:

1. With the exception of San Diego, none of the schools on your list are in states known as recruiting hotbeds-Florida, Texas, California...followed by Georgia, LA, Alabama, Ohio and Penn.

2. I wouldn't put Harvard at the top for the same reason I would not place Duke, Rice or Northwestern at the top of their respective conferences. World-wide recognition does, as you note, make recruiting "somewhat" of a challenge.

[Trumpster]

I haven't seen anything in this thread about coaching expectations. Craig Bohl was (or seemed to be) close to getting fired after a 6-5 season followed by a 3-8 season in '08-'09. NDSU doesn't have much tolerance for losing.

[clenz]

I haven't seen anything in this thread about coaching expectations. Craig Bohl was (or seemed to be) close to getting fired after a 6-5 season followed by a 3-8 season in '08-'09. NDSU doesn't have much tolerance for losing.
The thing, especially at the FCS level, that has to be considered is "Who can we honestly get in for what we can pay that will be better than what we have?"

It's a double edge sword. At UNI Farley has been here 15 years, a bunch of conference titles, title game appearance, multiple semi finals/quarter finals, number of top 25 finishes to a season, etc... There are some fans that think anything short of a title in the next 2ish years and Farley needs to be fired (there were some this year thinking that). UNI can (and I think might) pay the highest, or top 5, salary in the nation.

The reality is, though, whomever would replace Farley isn't going to be paid Farley's salary. Though, given what I'm seeing other top programs paying UNI could still certainly entice top level candidates. Who is going to have the type of recruiting connections to the area that the coach you are replacing?

It's a very thin line to be working with at the FCS level with firing coaches.

[Daytripper]

The thing, especially at the FCS level, that has to be considered is "Who can we honestly get in for what we can pay that will be better than what we have?"

It's a double edge sword. At UNI Farley has been here 15 years, a bunch of conference titles, title game appearance, multiple semi finals/quarter finals, number of top 25 finishes to a season, etc... There are some fans that think anything short of a title in the next 2ish years and Farley needs to be fired (there were some this year thinking that). UNI can (and I think might) pay the highest, or top 5, salary in the nation.

The reality is, though, whomever would replace Farley isn't going to be paid Farley's salary. Though, given what I'm seeing other top programs paying UNI could still certainly entice top level candidates. Who is going to have the type of recruiting connections to the area that the coach you are replacing?

It's a very thin line to be working with at the FCS level with firing coaches.


Sam Houston is dealing with new expectations of their coach. Ron Randleman spent years here being occasionally good. We tolerated mediocrity until Willie Fritz arrived. Now, I expect, the fan base will expect nothing short of a serious playoff run every year or two. We were lucky to pull Keeler and hopefully he will maintain our success. If he doesn't, he may be on a short leash.

[Bill]

Two thoughts:

1. With the exception of San Diego, none of the schools on your list are in states known as recruiting hotbeds-Florida, Texas, California...followed by Georgia, LA, Alabama, Ohio and Penn.


OK, I'm biased toward NJ, but Princeton is definitely in a state known as a recruiting hotbed!:)

[clenz]

Sam Houston is dealing with new expectations of their coach. Ron Randleman spent years here being occasionally good. We tolerated mediocrity until Willie Fritz arrived. Now, I expect, the fan base will expect nothing short of a serious playoff run every year or two. We were lucky to pull Keeler and hopefully he will maintain our success. If he doesn't, he may be on a short leash.
Let's say Keeler never gets to a title game. He maybe makes one more run at a semi final but after that it's all first or second game and out with missing 30-50% of the time - so essentially what he did at UD.



2002
6
6
no playoffs


2003
15
1
Title


2004
9
4
Quarters


2005
6
5
no playoffs


2006
5
6
no playoffs


2007
11
4
title loss


2008
4
8
no playoffs


2009
6
5
no playoffs


2010
12
3
title loss


2011
7
4
no playoffs


2012
5
6
no playoffs





How long would SHSU put up with those results. The reality is, once those initial guys were gone and the excitement of him being the new coach was gone it was a whole lot of mediocrity except landing a couple high caliber FBS cast offs.

Let's say this is the SHSU pattern for Keeler the next 10 years

12 wins - quarter finals
10 wins - first round loss
7 wins - no playoffs
7 wins - no playoffs
5 wins - no playoffs
11 wins - semi finals
6 wins - no playoffs
4 wins - no playoffs
13 wins - title game appearance.
8 wins - first round loss



Is that acceptable for the next 10 years? Does KC even get the chance to coach that 13 win team after no playoffs in 5 of the last 6 years? Does KC even get to the 11 win semi final team (which is probably a 7 or 8 win regular season team that just got hot late).

Let's pretend that semi final team IS a 7 win team that snuck in because someone else lost the last weekend of the season and SHSU backed into the playoffs. They then got hot and got to the semis and lost in heart breaking fashion to the eventual champion. KC still missed the playoffs the 3 years prior and had a first game exit the year before. You know with KC you're going to see a really good team at least once every 4-5 years, but those middle 2-4 might hurt some. That's still better than SHSU has ever had it outside of Fritz. Can SHSU luck into another KC situation in another 6-7 years?

I'm really not trying to start something, but this is where managing expectations and balancing reality vs expectations and "FIRE HIM BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WIN A TITLE/PLAYOFF GAMES" really needs to come into play.

[Catatonic]

OK, I'm biased toward NJ, but Princeton is definitely in a state known as a recruiting hotbed!:)

There are lots of ways to determine recruiting hotbeds--total number of recruits per state, recruits per capita, recruits per number of D1 (or P5) schools. Just in terms of number of recruits over a five year period, NJ is down the list. FWIW, I am not sure being in a state known for turning out recruits is always a plus, particularly in a state like Texas with lots of p5 and FBS football schools, and with national powers attempting to swoop in and cherry pick off the top. FCS schools might have an advantage in states with less competition or prime prospects. Everyone recruits Texas and California. Some other states? Not so much.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/3203141/Recruiting-TotalShare.png

[PaladinFan]

I haven't seen anything in this thread about coaching expectations. Craig Bohl was (or seemed to be) close to getting fired after a 6-5 season followed by a 3-8 season in '08-'09. NDSU doesn't have much tolerance for losing.

Funny thing about fans. Many at App State were calling for Jerry Moore's ouster before he ran off three national titles in a row.

[centennial]

Funny thing about fans. Many at App State were calling for Jerry Moore's ouster before he ran off three national titles in a row.
Bohl would have been likely gone without the 2010 run where we lost to EWU. We made it in because of the win against Kansas. Hindsight 20/20.

[Daytripper]

Let's say Keeler never gets to a title game. He maybe makes one more run at a semi final but after that it's all first or second game and out with missing 30-50% of the time - so essentially what he did at UD.



2002
6
6
no playoffs


2003
15
1
Title


2004
9
4
Quarters


2005
6
5
no playoffs


2006
5
6
no playoffs


2007
11
4
title loss


2008
4
8
no playoffs


2009
6
5
no playoffs


2010
12
3
title loss


2011
7
4
no playoffs


2012
5
6
no playoffs





How long would SHSU put up with those results. The reality is, once those initial guys were gone and the excitement of him being the new coach was gone it was a whole lot of mediocrity except landing a couple high caliber FBS cast offs.

Let's say this is the SHSU pattern for Keeler the next 10 years

12 wins - quarter finals
10 wins - first round loss
7 wins - no playoffs
7 wins - no playoffs
5 wins - no playoffs
11 wins - semi finals
6 wins - no playoffs
4 wins - no playoffs
13 wins - title game appearance.
8 wins - first round loss



Is that acceptable for the next 10 years? Does KC even get the chance to coach that 13 win team after no playoffs in 5 of the last 6 years? Does KC even get to the 11 win semi final team (which is probably a 7 or 8 win regular season team that just got hot late).

Let's pretend that semi final team IS a 7 win team that snuck in because someone else lost the last weekend of the season and SHSU backed into the playoffs. They then got hot and got to the semis and lost in heart breaking fashion to the eventual champion. KC still missed the playoffs the 3 years prior and had a first game exit the year before. You know with KC you're going to see a really good team at least once every 4-5 years, but those middle 2-4 might hurt some. That's still better than SHSU has ever had it outside of Fritz. Can SHSU luck into another KC situation in another 6-7 years?

I'm really not trying to start something, but this is where managing expectations and balancing reality vs expectations and "FIRE HIM BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WIN A TITLE/PLAYOFF GAMES" really needs to come into play.

Personally, that would not be acceptable. Although a national championship would insure a long stretch of good will. I believe the hope is that with a new perspective after stepping away from the game for a while, and the fertile recruiting grounds of Texas, along with the administration support, he will be more consistently good. Maybe he learned from some of his mistakes at UD? I sure hope so.

I'm interested in others' opinion on this: Is it easier to recruit in Texas competing against the FBS big boys in a fertile area, or recruiting the cream of the Delaware and the surrounding area?

[clenz]

Personally, that would not be acceptable. Although a national championship would insure a long stretch of good will. I believe the hope is that with a new perspective after stepping away from the game for a while, and the fertile recruiting grounds of Texas, along with the administration support, he will be more consistently good. Maybe he learned from some of his mistakes at UD? I sure hope so.

I'm interested in others' opinion on this: Is it easier to recruit in Texas competing against the FBS big boys in a fertile area, or recruiting the cream of the Delaware and the surrounding area?
What if, I can promise you that a new staff coming in will guarantee that title game appearance doesn't happen?

It's easy to look, as fans, at the mirco picture of "We didn't win a title and haven't made the playoffs in 2 years...FIRE HIM" but when looking at the big picture and having to think about all aspects of it, firing for the sake of firing isn't worth it.

What would it take for Keeler to keep his job, laid out like I did, the next 10 years?

[Daytripper]

What if, I can promise you that a new staff coming in will guarantee that title game appearance doesn't happen?

It's easy to look, as fans, at the mirco picture of "We didn't win a title and haven't made the playoffs in 2 years...FIRE HIM" but when looking at the big picture and having to think about all aspects of it, firing for the sake of firing isn't worth it.

What would it take for Keeler to keep his job, laid out like I did, the next 10 years?

Finishing in the top half of the conference 9 of those years. Playoffs 6 of those years. Playoff Semis two more times. National championship would be gravy.

If he wins a title early, I could see being more flexible.

[Catatonic]

Personally, that would not be acceptable. Although a national championship would insure a long stretch of good will. I believe the hope is that with a new perspective after stepping away from the game for a while, and the fertile recruiting grounds of Texas, along with the administration support, he will be more consistently good. Maybe he learned from some of his mistakes at UD? I sure hope so.

I'm interested in others' opinion on this: Is it easier to recruit in Texas competing against the FBS big boys in a fertile area, or recruiting the cream of the Delaware and the surrounding area?

That's a really good question.

Yeah, Texas has a bunch of recruits every year, but virtually every school in the country recruits here, although most of the recruiting centers on the I35 corridor from Dallas to Houston. P5, FBS, and even FCS out of region schools look at Texas athletes.

We don't ignore the metro areas, but a lot of our recruits come from smaller schools and communities. And, like you, we have had some recent success recruiting in Oklahoma, which is not as heavily recruited.

I don't know enough about the level of high school football in Delaware to comment on recruiting there.

[clenz]

Finishing in the top half of the conference 9 of those years. Playoffs 6 of those years. Playoff Semis two more times. National championship would be gravy.

If he wins a title early, I could see being more flexible.
So, barring a title he would essentially need to average a regular season record of 8.5-2.5 (6-2) and a total record of 11-3?

Essentially, what you're saying the bare minimum for him to keep his job for 10 years is:
-overall record of 110-30
give or take 5 games. Anything less than 100 wins is 100% unacceptable. That would mean less than 10 wins per season. That's a pretty tough number to average if you aren't making deep playoff runs every year OR going 9-2/10-1 every season.
-He needs to win as many SLC titles as SHSU has in it's entire history
-Let's be honest. If he is finishing 2nd or 3rd every year (which is top half) but not winning the title is that acceptable? The current number is 5 conference titles. So, need as many conference titles in 10 years as SHSU has in history.
- More playoff appearances in the next decade than the last 28 years
SHSU's first playoff appearance was 1986, since then there have been a total of 7 appearances
-average 3 playoff games per season
That gives room for a couple opening weekend games, a couple semi runs, and averaging a QTR final. That also means playing, at least, 27 playoff games over the next decade...10 more than all time at SHSU
-More playoffs wins in the next decade than all time at SHSU
These standards mean at least 18 wins over the next decade at SHSU in the playoffs and as mentioned....also more games games than SHSU has played in it's history.



Those are YOUR standards. It looks a little different when it's laid out like that, doesn't it? That's the type of standard that NDSU, Montana, App State, Georgia Southern, maybe UNI (maybe), etc...

I'm all for raising standards, but that's one hell of a standard.

Also means in the next full recruiting cycle KC better have a record of roughly 40-8, at least 2 conference titles, a semifinal trip and never losing first game of the playoffs.

[Daytripper]

So, barring a title he would essentially need to average a regular season record of 8.5-2.5 (6-2) and a total record of 11-3?

Essentially, what you're saying the bare minimum for him to keep his job for 10 years is:
-overall record of 110-30
give or take 5 games. Anything less than 100 wins is 100% unacceptable. That would mean less than 10 wins per season. That's a pretty tough number to average if you aren't making deep playoff runs every year OR going 9-2/10-1 every season.
-He needs to win as many SLC titles as SHSU has in it's entire history
-Let's be honest. If he is finishing 2nd or 3rd every year (which is top half) but not winning the title is that acceptable? The current number is 5 conference titles. So, need as many conference titles in 10 years as SHSU has in 25.
- More playoff appearances in the next decade than the last 28 years
SHSU's first playoff appearance was 1986, since then there have been a total of 7 appearances
-average 3 playoff games per season
That gives room for a couple opening weekend games, a couple semi runs, and averaging a QTR final. That also means playing, at least, 27 playoff games over the next decade...10 more than all time at SHSU
-More playoffs wins, in the next decade than all time at SHSU
These standards mean at least 18 wins over the next decade at SHSU in the playoffs and as mentioned....also more games games than SHSU has played in it's history.



Those are YOUR standards. It looks a little different when it's laid out like that, doesn't it? That's the type of standard that NDSU, Montana, App State, Georgia Southern, maybe UNI (maybe), etc...

I'm all for raising standards, but that's one hell of a standard.

Also means in the next full recruiting cycle KC better have a record of roughly 40-8, at least 2 conference titles, a semifinal trip and never losing first game of the playoffs.

That's my standard and I'm stickin' to it... xnodx But, you are correct that it is a high standard. Of course there are hundreds of scenarios that could change my mind, such as: 3 national championships in a ten year period, but not making playoffs the other seven. (as long at the nat. championships are spread out.) I'll take it.

[DFW HOYA]

OK, I'm biased toward NJ, but Princeton is definitely in a state known as a recruiting hotbed!:)

An analysis of 247sports.com recruits with 3 or more stars over the last five recruiting classes rates NJ 12th nationwide in number of recruits. But New York isn't even close:



Texas
1,337


Florida
1,295


California
878


Georgia
758


Ohio
462


Louisiana
333


North Carolina
284


Alabama
277


Pennsylvania
257


Virginia*
245


Illinois
232


New Jersey
222


Michigan
190


Maryland*
184


Tennessee
184


Mississippi
182


South Carolina
173


Indiana
132


Arizona
131


Oklahoma
116


Missouri
104


Utah
98


Washington
94


Arkansas
89


New York
78


Colorado
60


Kentucky
59


Kansas
58


Wisconsin
54


D.C.
54


Massachusetts
52


Hawaii
47


Oregon
43


Iowa
41


Nevada
41


Connecticut
39


Minnesota
36


Nebraska
24


Delaware
17


Idaho
16


New Mexico
10


West Virginia
10


South Dakota
4


New Hampshire
3


Rhode Island
3


Wyoming
2


Montana
2


North Dakota
2


Maine
1


Vermont
1


Alaska
0



http://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2015/4/15/8143431/states-most-players-recruits

[Model Citizen]

54 is a lot for D.C.

[Sammy94]

Is it easier to recruit in Texas competing against the FBS big boys in a fertile area, or recruiting the cream of the Delaware and the surrounding area?

I forgot which HS it was but it was around Dallas, had more D1 recruits than the entire state of Oregon. Let that sink in, 1 high school in Texas.

I think the cream of Texas goes to the big boys, 2nd tier goes to the little boys, and the third falls to FCS. I also think Texas third tier players are where most of the others states top tier are.
This was on my Twitter feed today, @CoachPhilLongo: Finding new weapons for the arsenal! TX, the largest talent store in the nation! #EatEmUpKats #BearkatNation #SHSUFootball #TalentDominates

[clenz]

That's my standard and I'm stickin' to it... xnodx But, you are correct that it is a high standard. Of course there are hundreds of scenarios that could change my mind, such as: 3 national championships in a ten year period, but not making playoffs the other seven. (as long at the nat. championships are spread out.) I'll take it.
So, if he fails to meet those standards through the next 2 years is he fired?

3?
4?
How many years would you give him of not meeting the standard and not winning a title?

Does SHSU have the money to afford his buy out and hire a coach of AT LEAST his caliber...actually better? You never fire a coach and then hire someone that isn't at least 15% better than what you fired.



That's why being the AD and making these decisions is a lot harder than setting the fan expectations at FCS schools.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

An analysis of 247sports.com recruits with 3 or more stars over the last five recruiting classes rates NJ 12th nationwide in number of recruits. But New York isn't even close:



Texas
1,337


Florida
1,295


California
878


Georgia
758


Ohio
462


Louisiana
333


North Carolina
284


Alabama
277


Pennsylvania
257


Virginia*
245


Illinois
232


New Jersey
222


Michigan
190


Maryland*
184


Tennessee
184


Mississippi
182


South Carolina
173


Indiana
132


Arizona
131


Oklahoma
116


Missouri
104


Utah
98


Washington
94


Arkansas
89


New York
78


Colorado
60


Kentucky
59


Kansas
58


Wisconsin
54


D.C.
54


Massachusetts
52


Hawaii
47


Oregon
43


Iowa
41


Nevada
41


Connecticut
39


Minnesota
36


Nebraska
24


Delaware
17


Idaho
16


New Mexico
10


West Virginia
10


South Dakota
4


New Hampshire
3


Rhode Island
3


Wyoming
2


Montana
2


North Dakota
2


Maine
1


Vermont
1


Alaska
0



http://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2015/4/15/8143431/states-most-players-recruits

247sports is a terrible recruiting site. Stars mean nothing.

[Sammy94]

KC won't be fired and he won't be here longer than 5 or 6 years.

[Daytripper]

So, if he fails to meet those standards through the next 2 years is he fired?

3?
4?
How many years would you give him of not meeting the standard and not winning a title?

Does SHSU have the money to afford his buy out and hire a coach of AT LEAST his caliber...actually better? You never fire a coach and then hire someone that isn't at least 15% better than what you fired.



That's why being the AD and making these decisions is a lot harder than setting the fan expectations at FCS schools.


True.

That being said, I'm not saying fire him. I am saying he is on a warm seat and should be reevaluated. You know as well as I do that many factors play into it. Expectations each season change. If a coach loses 14 starters, then a down season should be expected. But if he returns 20 starters (like Keeler does this year) from a final four team expectation are very high. A rash of injuries could turn a potentially good season into a disaster. But being mediocre consistently without some national championships (at least appearances) to show is unacceptable. Would I say fire him if we went to the playoffs all ten years but never got out of the second round? I am not sure.

[Daytripper]

KC won't be fired and he won't be here longer than 5 or 6 years.

This is very likely true. The only way he stays longer is if he is moderately successful to the point that we can't find anybody better and nobody at FBS wants him.

[clenz]

247sports is a terrible recruiting site. Stars mean nothing.
Can't speak to the 247 thing as I honestly don't follow recruiting nearly as closely as I used too.

NoDak is 100% correct on stars though.


I worked for Rivals for about 6 years (football and basketball) doing highlight films of top games and players in the state of Iowa, as well as putting together the list of strengths and weaknesses. Basically if you played football or basketball in the state of Iowa between 04/05 and 10/11 there's a really good chance that I watched every highlight tape of you, put together a highlight tape of you, or saw you play in person.

Essentially if you had more than a handful of FCS or D2 teams that you admitted were recruiting you your stars were instantly dropped by 1 from where it would be. If you were a 3 star recruit your junior year and committed to an FCS, regardless what FBS offers you held you will he time you be docked a star on the next "evaluation". If you commit to a FCS you star rating will not go up, ever, no matter what.

If you have mostly FCS offers but pick up one P5 offer - even Indiana/Illinois and say that you are getting letters from other FBS schools (even if you aren't) as time goes on you will be bumped to at least a 3.

If you are from a "recruiting hot bed state" it doesn't matter if a kid from Iowa is better than you...you are from Florida, Texas, California, etc... so you are instantly higher on the pecking order than someone else. Self-fulfilling prophecy, so to speak.

Also, if you have the right "runner" for upping recruiting hype you don't have to actually perform to get a star bump.

It's really shady how these star systems work

[clenz]

True.

That being said, I'm not saying fire him. I am saying he is on a warm seat and should be reevaluated. You know as well as I do that many factors play into it. Expectations each season change. If a coach loses 14 starters, then a down season should be expected. But if he returns 20 starters (like Keeler does this year) from a final four team expectation are very high. A rash of injuries could turn a potentially good season into a disaster. But being mediocre consistently without some national championships (at least appearances) to show is unacceptable. Would I say fire him if we went to the playoffs all ten years but never got out of the second round? I am not sure.
Perfect example of what I'm talking about.


Mark Farley - fire or keep...

ready...


GO!

[Daytripper]

Perfect example of what I'm talking about.


Mark Farley - fire or keep...

ready...


GO!

Fire. Because there are enough great coaches out there that would jump at that job.

[IBleedYellow]

Perfect example of what I'm talking about.


Mark Farley - fire or keep...

ready...


GO!

Let him get 2-4 more years while he changes the current offense around, you should know by then how the changes will do in the Valley.

[clenz]

Some info for your decision

Farley played inside linebacker at Northern Iowa from 1983 to 1985. He led the team in tackles in 1984 and 1985 and was named Gateway Football Conference Co-Defensive Player of the Year in 1985. Farley gained a nickname, that to this day, 98% of UNI fans know - The Walk On From Waukon. He then became a graduate assistant at Northern Iowa from 1986-1988. In 1989 he was named linebackers coach by new head coach Terry Allen. In 1997 he followed Allen to the University of Kansas, but left in 2001 when the head coaching position at his alma mater opened up. Acting as his own defensive coordinator, Farley's squads perennially rank among the top defense teams in the NCAA Football Championship Subdivision. In early 2008, Farley served as the interim director of athletics at Northern Iowa.
Hired for 2001 season to a program that had struggled for a couple years

120-56 (68.2%) record
12-8 playoff record
Conference all time leader in wins and conference wins as a head coach
Won Eddie Robinson award
Multiple All American's, All Conference players and draft picks
8 playoff appearances
National Runner up
2 other semi final trips
3 quarter final trips
Only once lost in first playoff game
7 conference titles
11 seasons finished in top 25
2 sub .500 seasons
missed the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years
2 sons have played for UNI - one was one of the best LBs in the conference during his time and the other is one of just a very small number of players to play as a true freshman at UNI with 3 years left

[Daytripper]

Some info for your decision

Farley played inside linebacker at Northern Iowa from 1983 to 1985. He led the team in tackles in 1984 and 1985 and was named Gateway Football Conference Co-Defensive Player of the Year in 1985. He then became a graduate assistant at Northern Iowa from 1986-1988. In 1989 he was named linebackers coach by new head coach Terry Allen. In 1997 he followed Allen to the University of Kansas, but left in 2001 when the head coaching position at his alma mater opened up. Acting as his own defensive coordinator, Farley's squads perennially rank among the top defense teams in the NCAA Football Championship Subdivision. In early 2008, Farley served as the interim director of athletics at Northern Iowa.
Hired for 2001 season to a program that had struggled for a couple years

120-56 (68.2%) record
12-8 playoff record
Conference all time leader in wins and conference wins as a head coach
Won Eddie Robinson award
Multiple All American's, All Conference players and draft picks
8 playoff appearances
National Runner up
2 other semi final trips
3 quarter final trips
Only once lost in first playoff game
7 conference titles
11 seasons finished in top 25
2 sub .500 seasons
missed the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years

This is a red flag. You have to evaluate whether he has lost the fire to coach, or if his message is not reaching the players, etc. Of course, you have to understand that he coaches in the toughest football conference in the country.

I change my mind. That record in that conference. He is pretty damned good.

[clenz]

This is a red flag. You have to evaluate whether he has lost the fire to coach, or if his message is not reaching the players, etc. Of course, you have to understand that he coaches in the toughest football conference in the country.

I change my mind. That record in that conference. He is pretty damned good.
2012 - true freshman QB took every snap. Lost 2 starting LB to injury in game 3. 4 of 6 losses were by less than a touchdown
2013 - lost two top receiving targets to injury and our #3 target early in the season, lost starting QB to multiple concussions, lost top LB to injury, lost 2 OL to injury, lost starting DL before season started. At one point during the season we were on 2 4th string DL, 2 3rd string LBs and 2 back up OL Finished 7-5 but was left out of the playoffs in a very controversial selection process for the final AL bids between the Big Sky, MVFC and SLC

How's that factor in to your decision?

[Daytripper]

2012 - true freshman QB took every snap. Lost 2 starting LB to injury in game 3. 4 of 6 losses were by less than a touchdown
2013 - lost two top receiving targets to injury and our #3 target early in the season, lost starting QB to multiple concussions, lost top LB to injury, lost 2 OL to injury, lost starting DL before season started. At one point during the season we were on 2 4th string DL, 2 3rd string LBs and 2 back up OL Finished 7-5 but was left out of the playoffs in a very controversial selection process for the final AL bids between the Big Sky, MVFC and SLC

How's that factor in to your decision?


Those kinds of things must be considered. Based on the info you have given, I see no justification for firing him. That kind of consistent success in that conference would be difficult to match for a new coach...Unless Nick Saban was looking for a new challenge.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

This is a red flag. You have to evaluate whether he has lost the fire to coach, or if his message is not reaching the players, etc. Of course, you have to understand that he coaches in the toughest football conference in the country.

I change my mind. That record in that conference. He is pretty damned good.

There has also been a serious sea change in the MVFC since it was the Gateway. It used to be the dumping ground for the MVC schools that played football. UNI put more into their football than the others so they were top dog and pretty much always made the playoffs. Adding Youngstown gave them a bit more football cache but with the cheater gone, it hadn't dulled UNI's top dog status until expansion and the addition of more "football oriented" schools.

Now it's not just one school beating up on the rest, with a legit football school at the top now UNI will have to figure out what they really want.

clenz will say they are both but he talks an AWFUL lot of basketball on here.

[clenz]

Those kinds of things must be considered. Based on the info you have given, I see no justification for firing him. That kind of consistent success in that conference would be difficult to match for a new coach...Unless Nick Saban was looking for a new challenge.
He meets almost none of your criteria though...

- - - Updated - - -


There has also been a serious sea change in the MVFC since it was the Gateway. It used to be the dumping ground for the MVC schools that played football. UNI put more into their football than the others so they were top dog and pretty much always made the playoffs. Adding Youngstown gave them a bit more football cache but with the cheater gone, it hadn't dulled UNI's top dog status until expansion and the addition of more "football oriented" schools.

Now it's not just one school beating up on the rest, with a legit football school at the top now UNI will have to figure out what they really want.

clenz will say they are both but he talks an AWFUL lot of basketball on here.
You'd think NDSU would have a winning record vs UNI...right?

[NoDak 4 Ever]

He meets almost none of your criteria though...

- - - Updated - - -


You'd think NDSU would have a winning record vs UNI...right?

You sound like the UNDies. Tell me, how did you have more losses last year than our Seniors had in their entire career?

[clenz]

I'd like to say I'm shocked NoDak has resorted to trolling a discussion that was a really good discussion with a lot of merit like the little ****ing bitch he is...but I'm not.


Well, this thread was fun to have an actual discussion on while it lasted.


Thanks NoDak.


****ing christ, can you not be a ****ing douche for one day?

[Daytripper]

He meets almost none of your criteria though...

- - - Updated - - -


You'd think NDSU would have a winning record vs UNI...right?

I know, that is why trying to use a formula to determine the success/failure of a coach is a fruitless endeavor.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I'd like to say I'm shocked NoDak has resorted to trolling a discussion that was a really good discussion with a lot of merit like the little ****ing bitch he is...but I'm not.


Well, this thread was fun to have an actual discussion on while it lasted.


Thanks NoDak.


****ing christ, can you not be a ****ing douche for one day?

Oh no, I made a counterargument to yours. Perish the thought!

I explained how Farley had it pretty easy, as did Terry Allen before him because the Gateway didn't have as much parity as it does now. You were the one who brought up records. What the **** was I supposed to say?

[clenz]

Oh no, I made a counterargument to yours. Perish the thought!

I explained how Farley had it pretty easy, as did Terry Allen before him because the Gateway didn't have as much parity as it does now. You were the one who brought up records. What the **** was I supposed to say?
You went full douche bag by brining hings that aren't relevant to the discussion to it and being a ****ing douche.

Yep...basketball is completely relevant to this disucssion


Jesus christ dude. You might be the first person to ever end up on my ignore list. That includes lakes, jbb, opie, ralph, etc...

You can't be in a discussion without being a douche about it, regardless how good of a point you make with it.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

You went full douche bag by brining hings that aren't relevant to the discussion to it and being a ****ing douche.

Yep...basketball is completely relevant to this disucssion


Jesus christ dude. You might be the first person to ever end up on my ignore list. That includes lakes, jbb, opie, ralph, etc...

You can't be in a discussion without being a douche about it, regardless how good of a point you make with it.

I'm sorry, did the forum programming suddenly put me in the middle of a PM conversation between you and daytripper? If so, I'm very sorry for inserting things into your private conversation you didn't want.

If not, go right the **** ahead and ignore me.

[Gil Dobie]

Two thoughts:

1. With the exception of San Diego, none of the schools on your list are in states known as recruiting hotbeds-Florida, Texas, California...followed by Georgia, LA, Alabama, Ohio and Penn.

FBS recruits primarily come from the hotbeds, FCS finds them where they can. NDSU for example, gets very few from the hotbed states.

[centennial]

FBS recruits primarily come from the hotbeds, FCS finds them where they can. NDSU for example, gets very few from the hotbed states.
A lot of kids are under recruited because they didn't go to the right camps, or are an inch shorter, 10 lbs lighter etc. NDSU's biggest secret is our camps. We have a lot of kids show up to that. The top most ones go to the FBS but we do manage to snag some good ones.

[The Cats]

Any ideas on the best coaching job in the SoCon?

Right now, I'd probably rank Mercer as the top spot. New facilities, seems to have plenty of funds, and a supportive admin. I really don't know how to rank the rest.

[Twentysix]

A lot of kids are under recruited because they didn't go to the right camps, or are an inch shorter, 10 lbs lighter etc. NDSU's biggest secret is our camps. We have a lot of kids show up to that. The top most ones go to the FBS but we do manage to snag some good ones.

I'm sure our coaching clinic doesn't hurt either. There were more than 200 (ND/Western MN) HS coaches at the clinic last weekend. Good will with the HS coaches probably goes along way when they are influencing their athletes future choices.

[Catatonic]

247sports is a terrible recruiting site. Stars mean nothing.

I am curious to know why you single out 247 Sports. 247 was started by the founder of Rivals. 247 is the newest of the major services and seems to have passed ESPN and Scout in popularity if not quality. I like the fact that 247 awards stars based both on its own analysis and the average rankings of all the major services.

My take is that which service is best depends on which region of the country you live in, and which school you support. Local staff matter. Rivals may do a much better job in some geographic areas than in others. The same is true of the other services.

I partially agree with your harsh take on stars. The evidence suggests stars matter for P5 schools much more than for players who wind up playing at FCS schools. Recruiting rank is s a good predictor of which P5 schools will subsequently win conference and national titles. Stars are also good predictors of who will be drafted by the NFL. Five star players are more likely to be drafted than four star players. Four star players are more likely to be drafted than three star players. There are fewer five than four and more four than three star players so I am talking about percentages not total numbers.

Clenz made a couple of excellent points re: the shortcomings of ratings services. He is spot on that if a prospect is courted more heavily by FCS or D2 schools, he is likely to lose a star. I also agree that whether a player is rated or not depends on attending the right camps or living in the right state.

Even so, ratings services have their place, although they are a better predictor of future success on the field for 4 and 5 star prospects and the schools they attend. At the FCS level, stars don't mean as much. Player potential and development matter more.

[Smitty]

Any ideas on the best coaching job in the SoCon?

Right now, I'd probably rank Mercer as the top spot. New facilities, seems to have plenty of funds, and a supportive admin. I really don't know how to rank the rest.

I would say Mercer is a good choice, UTC is up there

Rough list

1) Mercer
2) UTC
3) Wofford
4) Furman
5) Samford
6) WCU
7) Citadel
8) VMI
9) ETSU*

*Only because no games have been played

[Catatonic]

I am curious to know why you single out 247 Sports. 247 was started by the founder of Rivals. 247 is the newest of the major services and seems to have passed ESPN and Scout in popularity if not quality. I like the fact that 247 awards stars based both on its own analysis and the average rankings of all the major services.

My take is that which service is best depends on which region of the country you live in, and which school you support. Local staff matter. Rivals may do a much better job in some geographic areas than in others. The same is true of the other services.

I partially agree with your harsh take on stars. The evidence suggests stars matter for P5 schools much more than for players who wind up playing at FCS schools. Recruiting rank is s a good predictor of which P5 schools will subsequently win conference and national titles. Stars are also good predictors of who will be drafted by the NFL. Five star players are more likely to be drafted than four star players. Four star players are more likely to be drafted than three star players. There are fewer five than four and more four than three star players so I am talking about percentages not total numbers.

Clenz made a couple of excellent points re: the shortcomings of ratings services. He is spot on that if a prospect is courted more heavily by FCS or D2 schools, he is likely to lose a star. I also agree that whether a player is rated or not depends on attending the right camps or living in the right state.

Even so, ratings services have their place, although they are a better predictor of future success on the field for 4 and 5 star prospects and the schools they attend. At the FCS level, stars don't mean as much. Player potential and development matter more.

At the risk of talking to myself, here is some data from the 2014 NFL Draft:



A five-star recruit had a three-in-five chance of getting drafted (16 of 27).
A four-star had a one-in-five chance (77 of 395).
A three-star had a one-in-18 chance (92 of 1,644).
A two-star/unrated recruit had a one-in-34 chance (71 of 2,434).

​http://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2014/5/12/5696710/nfl-draft-recruits-five-stars-two-stars

[carney2]

1. Lehigh: Best positioned to leverage its facilities, location, and fan base to give its coaches the opportunity for sustainable national success. Recruits well in PA which is a strong factor for consistent recruiting. Some pressure to win, more than most in the PL, but six titles since 2000 across three coaches is a mark of strength.

2. Lafayette: See Lehigh. Better facilities, a little less national name recognition, but less pressure-- a great job for a coach who wants to settle in long term and doesn't feel the pressure of winning every year (see Frank Tavani). Four titles in 10 years is enough to keep (most) fans happy.

3. Colgate: The Red Raiders haven't gone more than four years between PL titles since 1997, which says a lot for program consistency and coaching. Colgate carries name recognition with recruits and while its location is rural, it attracts its share of city kids as well. Facilities will increasingly be an issue as the recruiting steps up.

4. Fordham: Riding the crest of Joe Moorhead's run, it's surprising how little the school has done in capital projects building out the infrastructure for sustained success. Fordham remains behind most PL schools in training facilities and its home field would be the worst in the league, were it not for Georgetown. The good thing for coaches is that Fordham is willing to spend its way to the top and it has paid off in NFL-caliber prospects and opportunities for attracting top coaches.

5. Holy Cross: Forget the "good old days" talk--are there enough athletes in HC's region for a coach to be consistently successful? Outside of Harvard, many New England teams are struggling and the Crusaders don't have the brand they once had to recruit impact talent--not just to be a "good" PL team, but to be a Top 25 program. With one league title in the last 24 years, this may be the next head coaching vacancy in the league and HC needs to drive the next hire with better scheduling (done), better facilities (including discussing a renovated Fitton Field), and more regional impact.

6. Georgetown: More upside than any other PL team in terms of brand name, location, and education, but a meager fan base and facilities comparable to a city park drive it near the bottom. Georgetown has been at or near the bottom of the PL for most of its 15 years, and it's apparent that if Georgetown is to make a major move upward, it will be outside the Patriot League; neither the school nor the league seems interested in sitting down and seriously discussing the 60 scholarship gap that could overwhelm the Hoyas and diminish the PL's collective strength of schedule. That's a no-sell for many coaches interested in upward career mobility, but Georgetown gets points for job security during down years that most coaches do not enjoy.

7. Bucknell: Bucknell is the Wake Forest of the PL: the academics are good but don't have the visibility of the other core schools in the league. Lewisburg is is isolated without being quaint, and the fan base seems more predisposed to basketball every year. The Bison have one only one title in league history and not since 1996, the longest active streak in the league. For a coach, it's a tough sell given a brand that doesn't scream "football" and a lack of a natural rival (Leh-Laf) nor a national name (Colgate, Fordham) to build upon.

Taking issue with your placement of Lafayette in the number 2 position I offer the following amendments:

A. The dictum that the Lafayette football coach should "win, but not win too much" is not a joke. It was supposedly one of former head coach Bill Russo's marching orders. And, once the program was beginning to look successful, circa 2008, the administration pulled the rug out by reducing equivalencies by around 25%. The institution is not non-supportive, they generally offer negative support. Admissions and financial aid people generally do not bend to support athletics, and the overly influential faculty would love to see the whole thing (football) go away.

B. A culture of losing permeates the entire athletic department. Losing is not only acceptable, but in certain segments of the College community it is preferred.

C. The College itself has become a no-fun police state with a social life approaching zero and an alcohol policy that approaches a phobia. This will have some serious impact on recruiting, if it hasn't already.

[DFW HOYA]

Taking issue with your placement of Lafayette in the number 2 position I offer the following amendments:


These may be the case but it's probably still in a better place than the five below it.

[clenz]

At the risk of talking to myself, here is some data from the 2014 NFL Draft:



A five-star recruit had a three-in-five chance of getting drafted (16 of 27).
A four-star had a one-in-five chance (77 of 395).
A three-star had a one-in-18 chance (92 of 1,644).
A two-star/unrated recruit had a one-in-34 chance (71 of 2,434).

​http://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2014/5/12/5696710/nfl-draft-recruits-five-stars-two-stars
Good stats...


Here's another one...


44 starters in the Super Bowl this past Feb.
5 Star Recruits - 0
4 Star Recruits- 4
3 and below- 40

[Mattymc727]

Good stats...


Here's another one...


44 starters in the Super Bowl this past Feb.
5 Star Recruits - 0
4 Star Recruits- 4
3 and below- 40

What about Tom Brady? He was QB at Michigan when they were still an elite football program. I believe he was before the star ranking era. Must have been a 5 star recruit out of high school.

[344Johnson]

What about Tom Brady? He was QB at Michigan when they were still an elite football program. I believe he was before the star ranking era. Must have been a 5 star recruit out of high school.

Even elite football schools don't have that many 5 star guys... At least not enough that one assumes a player for them is 5 star.

[clenz]

What about Tom Brady? He was QB at Michigan when they were still an elite football program. I believe he was before the star ranking era. Must have been a 5 star recruit out of high school.


Russell Wilson
QB
NC State/Wisconsin
3 star


Russell Okung
LT
Oklahoma State
3 star


James Carpenter
LG
Alabama
4 star


Max Unger
C
Oregon
3 star


J.R. Sweezy
RG
NC State
2 star


Justin Britt
RT
Missouri
3 star


Luke Willson
TE
Rice
2 star


Doug Baldwin
WR
Stanford
2 star


Jermaine Kearse
WR
Washington
3 star


Ricardo Lockette
WR
Fort Valley State
NR


Marshawn Lynch
RB
California
4 star


Michael Bennett
DE
Texas A&M
NR


Tony McDaniel
DT
Tennessee
3 star


Kevin Williams
DT
Oklahoma State
N/A (too old)


Cliff Avril
DE
Purdue
3 star


Bruce Irvin
LB
West Virginia
4 star


Bobby Wagner
LB
Utah State
2 star


K.J. Wright
LB
Mississippi State
3 star


Richard Sherman
CB
Stanford
3 star


Earl Thomas
FS
Texas
3 star


Kam Chancellor
SS
Virginia Tech
3 star


Byron Maxwell
CB
Clemson
4 star


Steven Hauschka
K
NC State
NR


Jon Ryan
P
Regina (Canada)
N/A (from Canada)





Tom Brady
QB
Michigan
N/A (too old)


Nate Solder
LT
Colorado
3 star


Dan Connolly
LG
Southeast Missouri State
NR


Bryan Stork
C
Florida State
3 star


Josh Kline
RG
Kent State
2 star


Sebastian Vollmer
RT
Houston
N/A (from Germany)


Rob Gronkowski
TE
Arizona
4 star


Julian Edelman
WR
Kent State
3 star


Brandon LaFell
WR
LSU
3 star


Danny Amendola
WR
Texas Tech
3 star


LeGarrette Blount
RB
Oregon
4 star


Rob Ninkovich
DE
Purdue
3 star


Vince Wilfork
DT
Miami
4 star


Chris Jones
DT
Bowling Green
2 star


Chandler Jones
DE
Syracuse
2 star


Jamie Collins
LB
Southern Mississippi
3 star


Dont'a Hightower
LB
Alabama
4 star


Jonathan Casillas
LB
Wisconsin
2 star


Darrelle Revis
CB
Pittsburgh
3 star


Devin McCourty
FS
Rutgers
3 star


Patrick Chung
SS
Oregon
2 star


Brandon Browner
CB
Oregon State
3 star


Stephen Gostkowski
K
Memphis
N/A (kickers weren't always rated)


Ryan Allen
P
Louisiana Tech
NR



- - - Updated - - -

Going back to the latest Giants/Pats game...

NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
No stars (6)
CB Kyle Arrington (Hofstra), LB Dane Fletcher (Montana State), S James Ihedigbo (Massachusetts), OG/C Nick McDonald (Grand Valley State), CB Antwaun Molden (Toledo/Eastern Kentucky), OG Donald Thomas (Connecticut).
Two stars (12)
LS Danny Aiken (Virginia), S Patrick Chung (Oregon), WR/CB Julian Edelman (Kent State), K Stephen Gostkowski (Memphis), RB BenJarvus Green-Ellis (Indiana/Ole Miss), LB Gary Guyton (Georgia Tech), DT Kyle Love (Mississippi State), CB Devin McCourty (Rutgers), DB Sterling Moore (SMU), OT Sebastian Vollmer (Houston), C/OG Ryan Wendell (Fresno State), RB Danny Woodhead (Chadron State).
Three stars (10)
DT Ron Brace (Boston College), S Sergio Brown (Notre Dame), OT Marcus Cannon (TCU), DE Brandon Deaderick (Alabama), QB Brian Hoyer (Michigan State), P Zoltan Mesko (Michigan), LB Rob Ninkovich (Purdue), DE Alex Silvestro (Rutgers), WR Matthew Slater (UCLA), OT Nate Solder (Colorado).
Four stars (6)
TE Rob Gronkowski (Arizona), TE Aaron Hernandez (Florida), LB Jerod Mayo (Tennessee), RB Stevan Ridley (LSU), RB Shane Vereen (Califiornia), DB Malcolm Williams (TCU)
Five stars (2)
QB Ryan Mallett (Michigan/Arkansas), Brandon Spikes (Florida)
Pre-Rivals era (17)
DE Mark Anderson (Alabama), QB Tom Brady (Michigan), WR Deion Branch (Louisville), OG Dan Connolly (Southeast Missouri State), DE Shaun Ellis (Tennessee), RB Kevin Faulk (LSU), DB Nate Jones (Rutgers), LB Niko Koutouvides (Purdue), OT Matt Light (Purdue), OG Logan Mankins (Fresno State), WR Chad Ochocinco (Oregon State), FB Lousaka Polite (Pittsburgh), DT Gerard Warren (Florida), OG Brian Waters (North Texas), WR Wes Welker (Texas Tech), LB Tracy White (Howard), DT Vince Wilfork (Miami).
NEW YORK GIANTS
No stars (4)
WR Ramses Barden (Cal Poly San Luis Obispo), WR Victor Cruz (Massachusetts), LB Zak DeOssie (Brown), OG Mitch Petrus (Arkansas).
Two stars (4)
OT James Brewer (Indiana), S Derrick Martin (Wyoming), TE Bear Pascoe (Fresno State), LB Spencer Paysinger (Oregon).
Three stars (9)
CB Prince Amukumara (Nebraska), RB Ahmad Bradshaw (Marshall), LB Mark Herzlich (Boston College), FB Henry Hynoski (Pittsburgh), WR Jerrel Jernigan (Troy), LB Greg Jones (Michigan State), DT Linval Joseph (East Carolina), S Tyler Sash (Iowa), RB D.J. Ware (Georgia).
Four stars (13)
TE Jake Ballard (Ohio State), TE Travis Beckum (Wisconsin), CB Will Blackmon (Boston College), C Jim Cordle (Ohio State), WR Mario Manningham (Michigan), WR Hakeem Nicks (North Carolina), DE Jason Pierre-Paul (USF), CB Aaron Ross (Texas), RB Da'Rel Scott (Maryland), WR Devin Thomas (Michigan State), DE Justin Trattou (Florida), OT Tony Ugoh (Arkansas), LB Jacquian Williams (USF).
Five stars (1)
S Kenny Phillips (Miami)
Pre-Rivals era (22)
C David Baas (Michigan), DT Rocky Bernard (Texas A&M), LB Chase Blackburn (Akron), LB Michael Boley (Southern Mississippi), OG Kevin Boothe (Cornell), DT Chris Canty (Virginia),QB David Carr (Fresno State),OT David Diehl (Illinois), S Deon Grant (Tennessee),RB Brandon Jacobs (Southern Illinois), DT Jimmy Kennedy (Penn State), DE Mathias Kiwanuka (Boston College), QB Eli Manning (Ole Miss), WR Kareem McKenzie (North Carolina), S Antrel Rolle (Miami), OG Chris Snee (Boston College), DE Dave Tollefson (Northeast Missouri State), DE Justin Tuck (Notre Dame), K Lawrence Tynes (Troy), DE Osi Umenyiora (Troy), P Steve Weatherford (Illinois), CB Corey Webster (LSU).

- - - Updated - - -

As it turns out, there aren't too many guys left in the league from pre-rivals ranking systems.

[clenz]

Real good link on QBs..


http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/02/current_nfl_qbs_werent_all_big.html

There were 53 men who started at least one game at quarterback in the NFL in 2014, but relatively few were elite recruits.
AL.com compiled a list of every quarterback who started at least one NFL game in 2014, including the school that signed him, the year, his star rating and his rank among that year's quarterback prospects. We also noted who was the No. 1 quarterback in that year's class.

1. Eight of 53 were 5-star recruits coming out of high school
This group accounts for right at 15 percent of the total. It includes one all-time great (Peyton Manning, 1994), two established starters (Carson Palmer, 1998; Matthew Stafford, 2006) and two former USC Trojans whose careers have been up-and-down (Matt Cassel, 2000; Mark Sanchez, 2005). Then there are the journeymen -- Chad Henne (2004), Jimmy Clausen (2007) and Ryan Mallett (2007). Those three combined for six NFL starts in 2014.
2. Only three of 53 were the No. 1 rated quarterback in their signing class
Any guesses? The correct answer is Sanchez (2005), Stafford (2006) and Clausen (2007). Stafford made his first Pro Bowl in 2014, but has yet to lead his team to a playoff win. Sanchez fell out of favor with the Jets before rebounding a bit with the Eagles in 2014. Clausen -- in retrospect maybe the most overrated QB recruit in recent history -- started one game this past season for the Chicago Bears, his first starting assignment since his rookie year of 2010.


3. Peyton Manning was not the No. 1 QB in his own signing class
Manning was one of the country's top-rated recruits coming out of New Orleans' Isidore Newman High School in 1994, but he wasn't the No. 1 quarterback in his class, or even in his own state. That honor went to Evangel Christian's Josh Booty, who turned down LSU to sign a baseball contract with the Florida Marlins. Booty eventually played four seasons at LSU and was even drafted by the Seattle Seahawks in 2001, but never threw a regular-season NFL pass.
4. Eli Manning was much lower-rated than you might remember
Ole Miss moved heaven and earth to land the youngest Manning in 1999, hiring David Cutcliffe -- who'd been Peyton's offensive coordinator at Tennessee -- as head coach with the implicit understanding that he could turn Eli into a star like his big brother. However, the recruit-niks saw Eli as only a 3-star recruit, and the No. 17 QB in his class. Some names ahead of him that year were Chris Simms, C.J. Leak, Rex Grossman and Jared Lorenzen.
5. The 2007 signing class was extraordinarily deep
Clausen and Mallett were the five-star headliners coming out of high school, but several others down the list accomplished a great deal in college and have continued to do so in the NFL. That includes 4-star dual-threat prospect Cam Newton, three-star recruits Kirk Cousins, Nick Foles, Ryan Lindley and Ryan Tannehill, two-star recruit Russell Wilson and Austin Davis, who was a "no-star" baseball player who walked on to the football team at Southern Miss.
6. The 1998 signing class has had some staying power
Five quarterbacks who graduated from high school in 1998 started at least one game this past season, a higher number than any class prior to 2006. That group includes Palmer and four-star dual threat quarterback Michael Vick, plus three largely unknown players who have blossomed at the next level -- Tony Romo, Shaun Hill and Josh McCown. The No. 1 quarterback recruit in 1998? Michigan recruit Drew Henson, a two-sport star who never panned out as either an MLB third baseman or an NFL QB.
7. The 2000 class was loaded with late bloomers
Cassel is still hanging around the NFL, which is more than you can say for the three quarterbacks who were rated ahead of him in the national rankings -- Brock Berlin, Casey Clausen and Jeff Smoker. However, further down the list you find the likes of Ben Roethlisberger, Philip Rivers and Jay Cutler. Roethlisberger was the No. 17 QB in his class, while Rivers and Cutler were unrated. In the NFL, they've combined for nine Pro Bowl berths, 421 starts and more than 103,000 passing yards.
8. Two all-time greats, 3 Super Bowl winners came from 'nowhere'
Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers both have Super Bowl rings and seem destined for eventual enshrinement in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Russell Wilson is one of the game's bright young stars, a man who has started back-to-back Super Bowls. None of them were among the top 25 quarterbacks in his signing class. Rodgers didn't even have a Division I offer coming out of high school, and spent a year at Butte Junior College before enrolling at Cal.
9. Dual-threat is a growing trend in the NFL
Twelve men who started at least one game in the NFL were noted as "dual-threat" quarterbacks coming out of high school. Notable names on that list include Vick, Newton, Wilson, Tannehill, Robert Griffin and Johnny Manziel. Interestingly, one who wasn't listed that way is Colin Kaepernick, who was a three-star "pro-style" quarterback recruit when he signed with Nevada in 2006. He was also listed (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Colin-Kaepernick-40529) at 6-foot-4 and 172 pounds, which gives new meaning to "slender."
10. The 'Brady Six' is actually 10
Much has been made of the six quarterbacks (http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nfl/columns/story?id=6303923) who were drafted ahead of four-time Super Bowl champion Tom Brady in 2000. But what about those who were rated higher than Brady when he signed with Michigan in 1995? For the record, they were Bobby Sabelhaus (Florida), Chris Redman (Louisville), Mark Zanders (Wisconsin), Brock Huard (Washington) and Kevin Thompson (Penn State). Only Redman -- who was also drafted ahead of Brady -- played significant snaps in the NFL.

[clenz]

There are a good number of 5 or 4 star guy in the NFL, but it is a vast majority rules by 3 star and lower

[clenz]

As for the Tom Brady...Michigan is still an elite program, don't kid yourself.

He was the 6th rated pro style QB in his class and somewhere in the 8-12 range overall for QBs. That probably would make him a 4* these days...maybe 3 depending how deep other positions are.

The 2016 class has only 1 rivals 5 star recruit at QB. 9 QBs in the top 100 but only 3 in the top 45

[Catatonic]

There are a good number of 5 or 4 star guy in the NFL, but it is a vast majority rules by 3 star and lower

Raw numbers are deceptive, since there are many more three star guys than four or five star players. What's the percentage relative to the total number of four or five star players? That's a more accurate reflection of the success or failure of star ratings.

[Mattymc727]

Us UNH fans actually talk a lot about this on the UNH message boards, because we can see this star ranking effect even our level. For example, lets say a 3 star recruit is an FCS "five star". A two star is a "four star in the FCS, and so on and so forth. Over the past ten years UNH has never received a 3 star commit (finally starting to), and gets maybe 3-5 two star guys any given year, yet the coaching and program has been quite successful. Other of the FCS top programs have done the same considering they are located in low population areas in recruiting coldbeds.

To summarize, the ranking system is garbage, it doesnt predict NFL or even college success. Its just another way of drumming up excitement for ESPN and its competitors. Wasnt Northwestern State ranked one of the highest every year in FCS for its "recruiting classes"?

Also, in regards to the actual topic, a lot of the CAA schools are great coaching jobs. A few of them are big state schools with big alumni populations and decent fanbases. Plus, there isnt much competition for college football as opposed to the South or Midwest. All it takes is for one guy to come in and win a little bit to create a powerhouse.

[Catatonic]

Us UNH fans actually talk a lot about this on the UNH message boards, because we can see this star ranking effect even our level. For example, lets say a 3 star recruit is an FCS "five star". A two star is a "four star in the FCS, and so on and so forth. Over the past ten years UNH has never received a 3 star commit (finally starting to), and gets maybe 3-5 two star guys any given year, yet the coaching and program has been quite successful. Other of the FCS top programs have done the same considering they are located in low population areas in recruiting coldbeds.

To summarize, the ranking system is garbage, it doesnt predict NFL or even college success. Its just another way of drumming up excitement for ESPN and its competitors. Wasnt Northwestern State ranked one of the highest every year in FCS for its "recruiting classes"?



Also, in regards to the actual topic, a lot of the CAA schools are great coaching jobs. A few of them are big state schools with big alumni populations and decent fanbases. Plus, there isnt much competition for college football as opposed to the South or Midwest. All it takes is for one guy to come in and win a little bit to create a powerhouse.


To summarize what? Your opinion? It certainly does not square with existing research. Recruiting success is directly correlated to success among FBS teams and a 4 or 5 star recruit is much more likely to be drafted by the pros.

If the discussion is success at the FCS level or below, I would agree with you.

[clenz]

To summarize what? Your opinion? It certainly does not square with existing research. Recruiting success is directly correlated to success among FBS teams and a 4 or 5 star recruit is much more likely to be drafted by the pros.

If the discussion is success at the FCS level or below, I would agree with you.
Outside of the 2015 class (which involved a coaching change) the University of Michigan has had every recruiting class be top 30, with two top 10 classes, since 2011.

Care to tell me how that's turned out?


Other teams with consistently high rated recruiting classes
Tennessee
Texas
UCLA
Penn State
Stanford
Florida
Va Tech
Arkansas
Kentucky
Miami

Shall I keep going?

[Catatonic]

Outside of the 2015 class (which involved a coaching change) the University of Michigan has had every recruiting class be top 30, with two top 10 classes, since 2011.

Care to tell me how that's turned out?


Other teams with consistently high rated recruiting classes


Tennessee
Texas
UCLA
Penn State
Stanford
Florida
Va Tech
Arkansas
Kentucky
Miami

Shall I keep going?

turn the question around: How many teams that finish outside of the top 10 in recruiting over say a three year period are in contention for the national championship? One in recent years-Oregon, although they usually finish in the top 15.

Recruiting success is a good predictor of success but it is not the only important variable.

Player development and coaching vary across institutions, and player motivation on and off the field matter. If 4 star athletes don't remain eligible, they don't play. If they commit felonies and are dismissed, they don't play. And so forth. 3 of the 4 teams in last year's playoffs have had recent recruiting success. Oregon was the single outlier, although they usually finished in the top 20, just not the top 10.

Florida is good example of poor player development/coaching. Arkansas went through a couple of failed coaches after the Petrino debacle. I could go on. The conference a team plays in also matters--Kentucky may finish in the top 30 but still be the lowest ranked team in the SEC, which makes it difficult to win many games.

My summary: Recruiting success alone won't get you to the football promised land but without recruiting success, a school is out of the hunt for post season success. Again,, FBS not FCS or D2.

[Daytripper]

Coaching is the wild card. You can have all the 5 star talent in the world, but if you don't know how to develop and use them, you won't be successful. Ask Mack Brown.

[Mattymc727]

Recruiting absolutely has an effect on success, star rankings dont. From a player standpoint, yes, being a high potential talent out of high school (5 star) means you have a better shot at the NFL, but coaches arent looking at star value and shouldnt be. Neither should fans for that matter.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Recruiting absolutely has an effect on success, star rankings dont. From a player standpoint, yes, being a high potential talent out of high school (5 star) means you have a better shot at the NFL, but coaches arent looking at star value and shouldnt be. Neither should fans for that matter.

Any fan that talks about star values like it means something is probably an asshole so you can just tune out at that point. It may have a little value in the BCS/FBS but it means nothing in FCS and should always be met with an immediate WGAF when it is mentioned.

[DFW HOYA]

Coaching is the wild card. You can have all the 5 star talent in the world, but if you don't know how to develop and use them, you won't be successful. Ask Mack Brown.

In any other universe where the sky is not burnt orange, Mack Brown would be successful: 158-48, 98-33 in Big 12 play, 15 bowl games in 16 seasons, and the program's first national title since 1970.

[clenz]

In any other universe where the sky is not burnt orange, Mack Brown would be successful: 158-48, 98-33 in Big 12 play, 15 bowl games in 16 seasons, and the program's first national title since 1970.

Earning $5 million a year after 2009 was the issue.
Same for another former UT coach - Rick Barnes

402-180 (69.1%)
186-94 (66.4%) B12
16 NCAAs in 17 years
15 20 win seasons (only his first 1998-1999 and 2012-2013 were not)
1 Final Four (2003)
3 Elite Eights (2003, 2006, 2008)
5 Sweet Sixteens (2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2008)
Big 12 Regular Season Championship (1999, 2006, 2008)
Big 12 Coach of the Year (1999, 2003, 2008, 2014



Something in the state of Texas just hates consistent winners.

[344Johnson]

Coaching is the wild card. You can have all the 5 star talent in the world, but if you don't know how to develop and use them, you won't be successful. Ask Mack Brown.

I beg you... BEG to tell us about Mack not being successful. I hate UT but to say a man who won a title and made it to another was not successful is absolutely silly.

[centennial]

I beg you... BEG to tell us about Mack not being successful. I hate UT but to say a man who won a title and made it to another was not successful is absolutely silly.
UT fans are really unrealistic. There is some logic behind this- Texas has the most amount of D1 talent, UT is one of the biggest schools in the country. Mack is a successful coach, UT fans might not think so.

[Catatonic]

UT fans are really unrealistic. There is some logic behind this- Texas has the most amount of D1 talent, UT is one of the biggest schools in the country. Mack is a successful coach, UT fans might not think so.

Mac was like Bobby Bowden. His best years were behind him and he did not want to bow out gracefully. The program lacked passion and discipline for a few years before Mac was forced out.

[Daytripper]

Mack Brown won with better talent and great assistants. He is a great recruiter but not a good coach. A dare anybody to find tape of a UT game where you sit there and say "Wow! That was some great coaching by Mack Brown right there!" When the good assistants left and Baylor, TCU, and A&M and others began getting the most elite talent, the 'horns went south. Gary Patterson and Art Briles are great coaches because they had to be creative and won with lesser talent.

[lionsrking2]

Mack Brown won with better talent and great assistants. He is a great recruiter but not a good coach. A dare anybody to find tape of a UT game where you sit there and say "Wow! That was some great coaching by Mack Brown right there!" When the good assistants left and Baylor, TCU, and A&M and others began getting the most elite talent, the 'horns went south. Gary Patterson and Art Briles are great coaches because they had to be creative and won with lesser talent.

Mack Brown is/was a great football coach and was a great recruiter. Where he fell short, particularly the last few years, was the ability to evaluate. He had a bunch of misses on elite players who went elsewhere, in favor of guys who were highly overrated ... particularly at the QB position. It's easy to say TCU, A&M, Baylor, etc., won with "lesser talent" but not so sure that was the case ... they did a better job evaluating and taking the right guys.

[clenz]

Mack Brown is/was a great football coach and was a great recruiter. Where he fell short, particularly the last few years, was the ability to evaluate. He had a bunch of misses on elite players who went elsewhere, in favor of guys who were highly overrated ... particularly at the QB position. It's easy to say TCU, A&M, Baylor, etc., won with "lesser talent" but not so sure that was the case ... they did a better job evaluating and taking the right guys.
This.

Had Mack landed one QB he missed on (didn't recruit or didn't land) Mack still has his job and already a statue built in his honor.


A great article on it here from just before his final game


http://www.chatsports.com/texas-longhorns/a/How-Awful-QB-Recruiting-Led-to-Mack-Browns-Downfall-At-Texas-10-136-515
In January 2010, it seemed like all the world was envious of Texas football:- The Longhorns were expected to beat Alabama in the BCS Championship Game
- They were 25-1 over their previous 26 games
- They had experienced QB excellence for seven straight years with Vince Young and Colt McCoy
- They were stocked with amazing QB talent for three more seasons with 5-star freshman Garrett Gilbert (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Garrett-Gilbert-62659)
Then, something crazy happened. Four-year starter Colt McCoy was injured in the 1st quarter of the BCS Championship game, and Texas QB play has been borderline awful ever since. The Longhorns experienced Mack Browns’s three worst Big 12 seasons in 2010-12, and are in danger of a fourth straight 4+ loss season.
Lets take a look at the incredibly bad QB recruiting misses that led to Mack Brown likely coaching his last regular season game against Baylor this weekend:

2006 Recruiting Class:
Texas QB recruit:
Jevan Snead – #8 player in Texas, #2 QB, 4 star


Snead transferred to Ole Miss in 2007 and was a two-year starter for the Rebels.


Who Texas Passed On or Didn’t Land
Matthew Stafford – #1 player in Texas, #1 QB, 5 star (Georgia)
From: Dallas, TX


Stafford was a superstar at Georgia from the day he stepped on campus in the fall of 2006, the same year a wide-eyed RS freshman named Colt McCoy took the reins in Austin. McCoy turned out to be great, but there’s no denying that Stafford would have been a legend in Austin, far surpassing McCoy’s accomplishments. Stafford led Georgia to a Sugar Bowl victory in the 2007 season, while Texas lost to two unranked teams and ended up in the Holiday Bowl.


Stafford was the #1 pick in the 2009 NFL Draft, and is a star QB for the Detroit Lions.


2007 Recruiting Class:
Texas QB recruit:
John Chiles - #5 player in Texas, #2 QB, 5 star
Chiles had three unspectacular years in Austin, eventually switching to wide receiver in the 2009 season, and never playing again after his third season. Chiles was expected to take over at QB in 2010, according to the Longhorns ‘Master Plan’, but was a bust at QB.


Who Texas Passed On or Didn’t Land
Ryan Mallett – #1 player in Texas, #1 QB, 5 star (Michigan)
From: Texarkana, TX


Mallett was a top-five player in the entire nation, a can’t-miss QB prospect and had all the tools you could ever want out of a QB. Mallett ended up going to Michigan for one season before transferring to Arkansas and becoming a star in the ’09 and ’10 seasons. UT sure could have used him in 2010, when they went 2-6 in the Big 12 while Mallett was dominating in the SEC. Mallett led the Razorbacks to a BCS bowl game after the 2010 season, and was drafted in the third round of the 2011 NFL Draft. He is currently Tom Brady’s backup in New England.


Ryan Tannehill - #88 player in Texas, #7 QB, 3 star (Texas A&M)
From: Wylie, TX


Tannehill starred at rival Texas A&M in one season as a starter in 2011, and was the #8 pick in the 2012 NFL Draft. Tannehill is currently the starting QB for the Miami Dolphins.


Nick Foles – #99 player in Texas, #8 QB, 3 star (Michigan State)
From: Westlake, TX


Foles played sparingly as a freshman at MSU in 2007, then transferred to Arizona. Foles starred in three seasons as ‘Zona QB from 2009-11, eventually getting drafted in the third round of the 2012 NFL Draft. Foles is currently the starting QB for the Eagles and has 19 TD passes and 0 interceptions this season, one TD away from an NFL record.


2008 Recruiting Class
Texas QB recruit:
NONE (good call, Mack)


Who Texas Passed On or Didn’t Land
This is where the list truly gets ABSURD…


Andrew Luck – #9 player in Texas, #1 QB, 4 star (Stanford)
From: Houston, TX


Wow. What more can you say about Luck… Possibly the most talented QB in college in 15 years, 2X Heisman runner-up, #1 pick in NFL Draft and NFL superstar in his second season as the Colts QB. Oh, and his dad is a Texas Law School grad…. He also happened to lead Stanford to BCS Bowls in 2010 and 2011, while Texas went a combined 13-12 with a Holiday Bowl win over lowly Cal.


Robert Griffin III - #42 player in Texas, #2 QB, 4 star (Baylor)
From: Copperas Cover, TX
I mean, seriously? You had two generational QB’s in your backyard in the same high school class, and the Texas Longhorns didn’t land either one. RG3 has had a ho-hum career… he only won the Heisman Trophy, was #2 pick in the 2012 NFL Draft and led the Redskins to the playoffs as a rookie.


Darron Thomas – #43 player in Texas, #3 QB, 4 star (Oregon)
From: Aldine, TX


While not as big of a name as Luck or RG3, Thomas was a two-year starter at Oregon in 2010 & 2011, leading the Ducks to back-to-back Pac 12 Championships, the BCS Championship Game (where they lost to Auburn) and a Rose Bowl win over Wisconsin. He went 24-3 as a starter for the Ducks.


2009 Recruiting Class
Texas QB recruit:
Garrett Gilbert – #3 player in Texas, #2 QB, 5 star


Gilbert was supposed to be ‘The Truth’, and the guy to lead Mack back to glory. Boy, did that backfire. Rumor has it that the Texas coaches though so highly of Gilbert that they passed on taking any QB in the 2008 class, including the three amazing players listed above. Wow.


Who Texas Passed On or Didn’t Land
Bryce Petty – unranked QB in state, 3 star
From: Midlothian, Texas


While Petty wasn’t a star in high school like some other names on this list, he was good enough to attract major BCS offers. Petty was a Tennessee commit who looked elsewhere when Lane Kiffin took over in Knoxville. Petty eventually settled on Baylor, but had to ‘greyshirt’ in 2009 and enroll in school a season late due to a lack of scholarships.


Petty waited his turn behind RG3 and Nick Florence, and was named starter in 2013. Petty led the Bears to a 9-0 start and #4 ranking before losing in Week 10 to Oklahoma State. Petty is the nation’s highest-rated passer, and has announced his intention to return for his senior season in 2014. Baylor plays Texas on Saturday.


2010 Recruiting Class
Texas QB recruit:
Connor Wood – #16 player in Texas, #1 QB, 4 star
Wood transferred to Colorado in 2011 after two seasons on the bench in Austin.


Who Texas Passed On or Didn’t Land
James Franklin – #20 player in Texas, #2 QB, 4 star
From: Corinth, TX


Franklin is the starting QB for #5 Missouri, and is playing in the SEC Championship Game this weekend against Auburn.


2011 Recruiting Class
Texas QB recruit:
David Ash – #25 player in Texas, #3 QB, 3 star


Ash was the Longhorns’ starter in 2012 and the beginning of 2013 before suffering a season-ending injury against BYU in September. Ash has been average at best in his three seasons in Austin.


Who Texas Passed On or Didn’t Land
Johnny Manziel – #36 player in Texas, #4 QB, 3 star (Texas A&M)
From: Kerrville, TX


Manziel is set to be the most famous college QB in history, and may be a one-of-a-kind player that we never see the likes of again. Although his team has underperformed this season, Manziel is already a college football legend. Johnny Football was the first freshman to win the Heisman in 2012, and is having an amazing year in 2013. Manziel will likely finish in the top 4 in the 2013 Heisman voting.


2012 Recruiting Class
Texas QB recruit:
Connor Brewer – from Arizona, #10 QB nationwide, 4 star Brewer transferred to Arizona in July.


Who Texas Passed On or Didn’t Land
Jameis Winston – #1 QB in nation, #10 player overall, 5 star


While Winston is an outlier on this list, not having gone to high school in Texas, he’s here for a reason. In September 2013, this quote shook the foundation of Texas football: “If I’d gotten offer from Texas, I’d be going to Texas right now.” Winston told ESPN’s Brett McMurphy. For those of you living under a rock, Winston is the QB for #1 Florida State, and will win the Heisman Trophy next weekend.


Lets count that up for you:
- Six NFL QB’s, including five current starters!
- Soon-to-be three Heisman winners
- Two #1 overall draft picks (with Winston likely #3 in 2015)
- Four QB’s drafted in the first round (soon to be more with Winston and maybe Manziel)
- Two Heisman runner-ups
- Three current starters at top-10 ranked teams


That, folks, is what we call the steady decline of a program.



ONE of those QBs completely changes everything for Brown.

[Daytripper]

I agree to disagree.

[clenz]

You don't think Luck/RG3 coming in and taking over after McCoy makes a massive difference at Texas?