Is basketball success more rewarding to a small mid major FCS school than football?

[woffordgrad94]

I like football a lot. I enjoy watching it a ton. And I want my school to have winning teams and secure playoff berths in the sport if possible. But I do have to admit that college basketball has really always been my first love when it comes to sports, so maybe I am a bit biased with what I say here. I think men's basketball success brings more national exposure to a school like Wofford (a small mid major FCS) than does football success. Just being in that NCAA tournament bracket brings a lot more money to the school and national exposure to it than making the FCS semifinals against Delaware did (or even than winning an FCS national championship would). When our name is on that bracket everybody sees it. And it makes very vital money for our school (and our conference too). Not to be rude, But the truth is that your average Joe Sixpack sports fan doesn't care about FCS football, not even its championship game. But millions watch the NCAA Tournament. So while I'd love to win at both sports, if I had to pick only one to be good at I would have to go with hoops.

[344Johnson]

Hoops are a better investment no doubt (assuming success is mutually exclusive)

[Catsfan90]

It does seem as though basketball gets more media time for schools than say football. I always hear about Villanova basketball on ESPN, but never football.

[bonarae]

To an average Ivy fan, football is usually valued more, but in recent years, due to the playoff potential of basketball that football still doesn't have, basketball has become king.

[FUBeAR]

I like football a lot. I enjoy watching it a ton. And I want my school to have winning teams and secure playoff berths in the sport if possible. But I do have to admit that college basketball has really always been my first love when it comes to sports, so maybe I am a bit biased with what I say here. I think men's basketball success brings more national exposure to a school like Wofford (a small mid major FCS) than does football success. Just being in that NCAA tournament bracket brings a lot more money to the school and national exposure to it than making the FCS semifinals against Delaware did (or even than winning an FCS national championship would). When our name is on that bracket everybody sees it. And it makes very vital money for our school (and our conference too). Not to be rude, But the truth is that your average Joe Sixpack sports fan doesn't care about FCS football, not even its championship game. But millions watch the NCAA Tournament. So while I'd love to win at both sports, if I had to pick only one to be good at I would have to go with hoops.

100% correct - I would add, though, that in GA, unlike some other states (and I have lived in VA, NC, SC, GA, CA, PA, NJ, and DE) just HAVING a football team is necessary to attract many prospective students. On top of that, as I will grudgingly admit that GaSou proved (though, perhaps, chose to ignore), being good at football at the FCS level does provide enough in-state/-region notoriety to matter on the name-recognition and community-support fronts.

[TheRevSFA]

Yes. SFA's basketball program has done more for the school's visibility than football. Remember, FCS football is third fiddle in texas after the Big 12 and then the FBS remainders

[clenz]

UNI has won multiple FBS games against in state teams, been to the title game, been ranked #1, gone undefeated, etc... in basketball.

None of that even comes close to what UNI basketball has brought in terms of media over the same time frame (starting in 05).

I have worn UNI shirts all over the western half of the US and I get talked too about UNI basketball at about a 70:1 rate vs football

Now, football is vital to the institution in terms of attracting students (even if they don't go to games). I would be very interested to see what kind of athletic success UNI could have without having the financial "strain" of maintaining a football stadium (which is actually a generator so to speak), recruiting, travel, etc... and could dump that money into already successful basketball, volleyball, track and wrestling programs. It would mean UNI would still have baseball and likely men's soccer would exist.

I really think UNI could be a public version of maintaining athletic excellence like Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc... its already close across the board.

Fact is though, if football goes away, over half our donations do too.

[Sammy94]

FCS football is third fiddle in texas after the Big 12 and then the FBS remainders

I would argue FCS football is 4th fiddle in Texas behind high school football. When is the last time 100,000 packed a stadium to watch a Texas team play basketball? Football in Texas will always trump any other sport in this state. If national attention is what you are looking for, a game or two in the big dance will definitely stir up some news for a week or so but do you really care if someone in California is asking who is SFA for a day or two or do you want potential students from your area knowing who you are? Give me football success in Texas every year.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Basketball is absolutely a better vehicle for national exposure. I've researched and educated myself on Butler, Davidson, UNI, Valpo etc. because of what they've done in basketball. The first thing I think of when I hear ETSU is their win over Arizona in the tournament. Not the fact they shut down their football program several years ago only to restart it recently.

The "Flutie" affect has been well documented at Gonzaga, Butler, VCU and George Mason. I'm honestly surprised more schools don't eliminate their football programs in order to invest more resources into hoops.

Heck, even ODU and La Tech got tremendous mileage out of the women's teams back in the day. South Dakota State had a really good women's team recently that trumped the football program....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Yes. SFA's basketball program has done more for the school's visibility than football. Remember, FCS football is third fiddle in texas after the Big 12 and then the FBS remainders

One could argue that FCS football is third fiddle in Texas. Big 12, middling FBS, High School THEN FCS....

[clenz]

The "Flutie" affect has been well documented at Gonzaga, Butler, VCU and George Mason. I'm honestly surprised more schools don't eliminate their football programs in order to invest more resources into hoops.
Many of the schools would lose a ton of interest/fans/donation by doing so.

UNI did a study in 08 or 09 about the financial feasibility of football and potential options - UNI was studying an FBS move kind of. The study looked at 5 options:

1. Stay as is
2. Go FBS
3. Go D2
4. Go FCS non-schollarship
5. Drop football

This is the study that people who want to slam UNI budgets (mostly NDSU fans who I've put in their place on the subject) want to cite. They ignore what the study found and what the point of the study was.

I'll see if I can find a copy of it saved anywhere and obviously a lot of financials at UNI have changed - for the better. News came out in the last week or two that a private donor has set up an endowment for one of the head coaching positions but it won't be announced until after basketball season which coach it is. Regardless who it is that is a HUGE change for UNI. Especially if it's football (that's 300-400k per year off the books) and basketball is about 600-700k off the book (and Jake might be getting a new contract pushing close to 1 mil per season).

Anyway, the study found that UNI's choices should be (in order)

1. Stay FCS
2. Go FBS
3. Go FCS non-scholly
4. Drop football
5. Go D2 (the study basically said if this was done they may as well close the university/athletic department).


They surveyed a bunch of people (alumni, donors, fans, randoms, etc...) and found that if football didn't exist at UNI donations would drop at a very, very, alarming rate. Now, basketball success could bring them back but not at the level even FCS football brings. The state of Iowa is so football crazy that it's vital to a schools health (as dumb as that sounds). The state of Iowa has 3m people and pushing 40 college football programs

I don't know what the survey would look like if done now but probably not much different.

I don't know what other states looks like, but I would imagine the SE would be much the same.

An interesting case study to watch on this topic going forward will be ETSU and Mercer.

Schools like the PFLs would be intriguing to watch if they dropped football - Drake will never drop it though

[TheRevSFA]

I would argue FCS football is 4th fiddle in Texas behind high school football. When is the last time 100,000 packed a stadium to watch a Texas team play basketball? Football in Texas will always trump any other sport in this state. If national attention is what you are looking for, a game or two in the big dance will definitely stir up some news for a week or so but do you really care if someone in California is asking who is SFA for a day or two or do you want potential students from your area knowing who you are? Give me football success in Texas every year.

Yet our tourney run last year got us much more exposure than your two natty champ runs. Funny how that's worked out

If football is what brings folks to Sam, based off your growth, why isn't bowers sold out?

[Daytripper]

Yet our tourney run last year got us much more exposure than your two natty champ runs. Funny how that's worked out

If football is what brings folks to Sam, based off your growth, why isn't bowers sold out?

It is true basketball *can* bring much more exposure to an FCS school than football. This is simply a product of the television exposure of March Madness. Nothing in FCS football (not even NDSU's run) can match the national exposure of an FCS team that reaches, say, the sweet sixteen of the BB tourney. But the question is, does this basketball success translate to success in other sports? Or increased/higher quality enrollment? Difficult question to answer....

[TheRevSFA]

It is true basketball *can* bring much more exposure to an FCS school than football. This is simply a product of the television exposure of March Madness. Nothing in FCS football (not even NDSU's run) can match the national exposure of an FCS team that reaches, say, the sweet sixteen of the BB tourney. But the question is, does this basketball success translate to success in other sports? Or increased/higher quality enrollment? Difficult question to answer....

Agree with you. This isn't an easy one. It'd be fun to look at enrollment trends and sustainability

[Sammy94]

Yet our tourney run last year got us much more exposure than your two natty champ runs. Funny how that's worked out

I agree, but I don't care about someone in Rhode Island wondering what a Bearkat is for a few days.


If football is what brings folks to Sam, based off your growth, why isn't bowers sold out?

I don't think football is the reason that someone comes to Sam, I just think success in football exposes more people to the university more on a local level.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Many of the schools would lose a ton of interest/fans/donation by doing so.

UNI did a study in 08 or 09 about the financial feasibility of football and potential options - UNI was studying an FBS move kind of. The study looked at 5 options:

1. Stay as is
2. Go FBS
3. Go D2
4. Go FCS non-schollarship
5. Drop football

This is the study that people who want to slam UNI budgets (mostly NDSU fans who I've put in their place on the subject) want to cite. They ignore what the study found and what the point of the study was.

I'll see if I can find a copy of it saved anywhere and obviously a lot of financials at UNI have changed - for the better. News came out in the last week or two that a private donor has set up an endowment for one of the head coaching positions but it won't be announced until after basketball season which coach it is. Regardless who it is that is a HUGE change for UNI. Especially if it's football (that's 300-400k per year off the books) and basketball is about 600-700k off the book (and Jake might be getting a new contract pushing close to 1 mil per season).

Anyway, the study found that UNI's choices should be (in order)

1. Stay FCS
2. Go FBS
3. Go FCS non-scholly
4. Drop football
5. Go D2 (the study basically said if this was done they may as well close the university/athletic department).


They surveyed a bunch of people (alumni, donors, fans, randoms, etc...) and found that if football didn't exist at UNI donations would drop at a very, very, alarming rate. Now, basketball success could bring them back but not at the level even FCS football brings. The state of Iowa is so football crazy that it's vital to a schools health (as dumb as that sounds). The state of Iowa has 3m people and pushing 40 college football programs

I don't know what the survey would look like if done now but probably not much different.

I don't know what other states looks like, but I would imagine the SE would be much the same.

An interesting case study to watch on this topic going forward will be ETSU and Mercer.

Schools like the PFLs would be intriguing to watch if they dropped football - Drake will never drop it though

UNI has had success in football though. I certainly understand why the university would look at football as an important part of the university. Plus, UNI has put several players in the NFL, including eventual HOF Kurt Warner. Having a strong core of football alums is huge.

The two schools that stand out to me are Valpo and Davidson. Valpo has the potential to be a Butler/Gonzaga like program. They have a strong culture of winning, a solid facility and are located in an ideal location. The Crusaders COULD be a Top 40 program year in and year out with a little more emphasis on the program. The same things apply to Davidson. The biggest difference is that Davidson is in the A10 so they already have a better platform for success.

[woffordgrad94]

I am pretty sure Wofford will never drop its football program, and rightly so. South Carolina is a football state and football is still by far the most popular sport at the school despite the recent basketball success combined with the recent down years in football. I'm not delusional that the school will start embracing basketball more than football, even if football started going 1-10 every year and basketball made the Big Dance every year. So Wofford should always have an FCS scholarship football program. It is important to the school. But they also should remember that it is basketball, not football, that can make the school a ton of cash by being successful. Go for NCAA tournament appearances over FCS playoff appearances if it comes down to it. But at the same time I don't want to ever be like Davidson. I have always been very critical about how they threw away scholarship football mainly just to gain an advantage over other schools in basketball. I am glad they are no longer in the SoCon and I don't think any non-football schools belong in the conference. So UNC Greensboro needs to be replaced by someone with scholarship football. ETSU and Mercer wouldn't have been admitted if they weren't playing or planning on playing SoCon football...we don't want any more Davidsons or College of Charlestons.

[Professor Chaos]

Depends on your personal viewpoint. If you value national exposure over all else it's easily basketball. You could make an argument that NDSU gained more exposure winning game one 2nd round game in the NCAA tournament last year than they did winning 4 straight FCS titles (I'd be willing to argue that but I'd concede that it's not a ridiculous take). For me personally, it's more rewarding to watch NDSU's football team win a national title than to watch the basketball team win a game in the tournament because there's a finality to that and it ends on a high. Unless one of those unique FCS teams with a national basketball program like Villanova made it to the Final 4 there's always going to be some level of bitterness at the end of the season. Even last year during NDSU's best men's basketball season ever it ended bittersweet since they finished only a game away from the Sweet 16.

[clenz]

Depends on your personal viewpoint. If you value national exposure over all else it's easily basketball. You could make an argument that NDSU gained more exposure winning game one 2nd round game in the NCAA tournament last year than they did winning 4 straight FCS titles (I'd be willing to argue that but I'd concede that it's not a ridiculous take). For me personally, it's more rewarding to watch NDSU's football team win a national title than to watch the basketball team win a game in the tournament because there's a finality to that and it ends on a high. Unless one of those unique FCS teams with a national basketball program like Villanova made it to the Final 4 there's always going to be some level of bitterness at the end of the season. Even last year during NDSU's best men's basketball season ever it ended bittersweet since they finished only a game away from the Sweet 16.
What about when you're football team finishes one game away from getting to the title game, or so and so so forth?

It's very much a different mindset based on which sport you follow most closely and what sport is the key sport at your school. NDSU, Montana, App State, Montana State, UD, etc... will all be football centric. Schools like UNI, Nova (not I'm not putting them on the same level), SIU, ISUr, ISUb, Bulter, Drake, Valpo, Davidson, etc... will all gladly take high level success at the FCS level but see "more benefit" from the NCAA tournament.

Different athletic department philosophies is all.

[Professor Chaos]

What about when you're football team finishes one game away from getting to the title game, or so and so so forth?

It's very much a different mindset based on which sport you follow most closely and what sport is the key sport at your school. NDSU, Montana, App State, Montana State, UD, etc... will all be football centric. Schools like UNI, Nova (not I'm not putting them on the same level), SIU, ISUr, ISUb, Bulter, Drake, Valpo, Davidson, etc... will all gladly take high level success at the FCS level but see "more benefit" from the NCAA tournament.

Different athletic department philosophies is all.
You're right, it's all relative based on the philosophy and tradition at your university. Had NDSU's basketball team beat San Diego St last year and made the Sweet 16 I'd put that above any singular championship football season to this point. My point is to be a "mid-major" football program you have a lower ceiling but you have a legitimate opportunity to win a title at your level of competition since the level of competition isn't. For a mid-major basketball program you need a truly miraculous run (a la Butler the first time they did it) to truly have a chance to win a title at your level of competition since the field is much stronger. That's why for a school like NDSU a FCS national title, IMO, falls somewhere between making it to the round of 32 and the Sweet 16 in basketball.

[clenz]

Regardless how far UNI makes it in the tournament this season there has been more articles, stories, ESPN time, Fox Sports Radio time, SI, etc... about UNI than there has been in 4 years of NDSU titles though.

That's without UNI even having to win a single NCAA game.

[Professor Chaos]

Regardless how far UNI makes it in the tournament this season there has been more articles, stories, ESPN time, Fox Sports Radio time, SI, etc... about UNI than there has been in 4 years of NDSU titles though.

That's without UNI even having to win a single NCAA game.
Agreed. Which is why I said if national exposure for your university is what makes it the most rewarding for you to follow your mid-major program then basketball takes the cake for mid-majors easily. However, UNI hasn't won a tournament game this year and if they get upset in their first game how rewarding will the season be for most UNI fans? I'm sure it'll still be looked at as a historically successful season but I bet most fans would still consider the 2010 Sweet Sixteen run as the pinnacle in terms of their personal enjoyment as a fan.

[RabidRabbit]

SDSU has grown leaps & bounds in football, and that success is bringing in the best and brightest in the upper mid-west. However, SDSU is, and continues to be a basketball school. Having completed it's 4th undefeated regular season at Frost (SDSU home court), and being the lead school bringing the Summit League tourney. basketball makes the biggest splash.

SDSU is also a school where WBB is highly valued. The WBB team has had NCAA D-I initial success to have entered the NCAA record books as the earliest eligible participant in the WNIT, NCAA tourney, and even had a final 4 WNIT finalist last year in the only non-NCAA year since eligible. The WBB will likely be the team that advances the furthermost into to the NCAA's sometime in the future.

[tribe_pride]

It does seem as though basketball gets more media time for schools than say football. I always hear about Villanova basketball on ESPN, but never football.

Even if this is true (and I believe so), Villanova doesn't count in the overall analysis. Even though it is in a mid-major conference in football, it has been in a major conference for basketball so it's basketball exposure is obviously going to be higher.

[FargoBison]

Regardless how far UNI makes it in the tournament this season there has been more articles, stories, ESPN time, Fox Sports Radio time, SI, etc... about UNI than there has been in 4 years of NDSU titles though.

That's without UNI even having to win a single NCAA game.

I am not sure I would say all four years. It will come though if you win a few games in March.

Game Day's(not just the one's NDSU hosted but they kept on talking about NDSU), all the TV playoff games and the FBS games add up. CBS online always talked about NDSU as did a number of others.

Some of it is just people don't really care about regular season CBB like they do football, it all changes in March though.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I am not sure I would say all four years. It will come though if you win a few games in March.

Game Day's(not just the one's NDSU hosted but they kept on talking about NDSU), all the TV playoff games and the FBS games add up. CBS online always talked about NDSU as did a number of others.

Some of it is just people don't really care about regular season CBB like they do football, it all changes in March though.

College basketball still has major exposure because it's ESPN's flagship programming from mid-January until early March. College Game Day will be in Wichita and Lawrence this weekend. UNI is receiving a tremendous amount of great publicity this year because of their on-court accomplishments. I think the pub they get is better than NDSU's for the simple fact that UNI is competing at the highest level. Mount Union is a household name to any reasonable college football fan but what is the real value in it? UNI is in Top 10 in the highest poll in the country. They've reached one of the pinnacles in college athletics when it comes to regular season stature/accomplishments....

The moment they beat SFA at the start of the year I realized there was real potential. This is a team that SHOULD reach the Sweet 16 assuming a reasonable seed/match-up.

Bucknell's win over Kansas did great things for the Bison community and the PL. Prior to that win the league had accomplished very little on the national level. Bucknell backed that win up with a consistent Top 25 ranking the following year and a first round win over Arkansas. PL/FCS football will never give them that much exposure...

[bonarae]

College basketball still has major exposure because it's ESPN's flagship programming from mid-January until early March. College Game Day will be in Wichita and Lawrence this weekend. UNI is receiving a tremendous amount of great publicity this year because of their on-court accomplishments. I think the pub they get is better than NDSU's for the simple fact that UNI is competing at the highest level. Mount Union is a household name to any reasonable college football fan but what is the real value in it? UNI is in Top 10 in the highest poll in the country. They've reached one of the pinnacles in college athletics when it comes to regular season stature/accomplishments....

The moment they beat SFA at the start of the year I realized there was real potential. This is a team that SHOULD reach the Sweet 16 assuming a reasonable seed/match-up.

Bucknell's win over Kansas did great things for the Bison community and the PL. Prior to that win the league had accomplished very little on the national level. Bucknell backed that win up with a consistent Top 25 ranking the following year and a first round win over Arkansas. PL/FCS football will never give them that much exposure...

The same can be said with the Ivy League. With football's long-term sustainability still at a crossroads, many younger fans of the Ancient Eight (myself included) have turned to sports where an Ivy can win in the postseason, i.e. ice hockey or basketball.

[FargoBison]

College basketball still has major exposure because it's ESPN's flagship programming from mid-January until early March. College Game Day will be in Wichita and Lawrence this weekend. UNI is receiving a tremendous amount of great publicity this year because of their on-court accomplishments. I think the pub they get is better than NDSU's for the simple fact that UNI is competing at the highest level. Mount Union is a household name to any reasonable college football fan but what is the real value in it? UNI is in Top 10 in the highest poll in the country. They've reached one of the pinnacles in college athletics when it comes to regular season stature/accomplishments....

The moment they beat SFA at the start of the year I realized there was real potential. This is a team that SHOULD reach the Sweet 16 assuming a reasonable seed/match-up.

Bucknell's win over Kansas did great things for the Bison community and the PL. Prior to that win the league had accomplished very little on the national level. Bucknell backed that win up with a consistent Top 25 ranking the following year and a first round win over Arkansas. PL/FCS football will never give them that much exposure...

More people watched NDSU beat Coastal Carolina, than have watched every single UNI basketball game that has been televised this year on a national network. The way for UNI or really any mid-major to get big time publicity is to win in March. That is when college basketball has a large active national audience, during the season most of the talk is focused on the same majors schools....with those outside getting a few mentions.

That said what NDSU did may never be done again. Obviously it is easier to get much more exposure in hoops, NDSU winning one game in the dance got more exposure than football could ever dream of getting out of one game. What NDSU did in football was build up so much over a 4 year period, you had multiple gamedays, ESPN TV games, etc. It is preposterous to say UNI has gotten more out of what they have done so far.

But like I said to capitalize on what they have done UNI needs to win in March, if they go to the sweet 16 or elite 8 it will easily trump what NDSU did over 4 years. If they go one and done forget about it.

[clenz]

More people watched NDSU beat Coastal Carolina, than have watched every single UNI basketball game that has been televised this year on a national network. The way for UNI or really any mid-major to get big time publicity is to win in March. That is when college basketball has a large active national audience, during the season most of the talk is focused on the same majors schools....with those outside getting a few mentions.

That said what NDSU did may never be done again. Obviously it is easier to get much more exposure in hoops, NDSU winning one game in the dance got more exposure than football could ever dream of getting out of one game. What NDSU did in football was build up so much over a 4 year period, you had multiple gamedays, ESPN TV games, etc. It is preposterous to say UNI has gotten more out of what they have done so far.

But like I said to capitalize on what they have done UNI needs to win in March, if they go to the sweet 16 or elite 8 it will easily trump what NDSU did over 4 years. If they go one and done forget about it.
In the last 3 weeks alone UNI has been discussed multiple times on PTI, Around the Horn, every Fox Sports Radio Show, Sports Center, nearly every college basketball game and pre/post game show, featured on ESPN's website, Sports Illustrated's website, had more columns written by national writters, mentioned on twitter by Bilas, Dickie V, Palm, KenPom, etc..., have players in contention for a NATIONAL POY, etc...

You don't have to believe it, but the national exposure UNI has gotten the last 2 or 3 months is beyond 4 years of NDSU football. Hell, the fact that is even "close to debatable" is more than enough proof to show what exposure is better.

[Daytripper]

Exposure is one thing.....Garnering status and respect as a successful athletic program is another. The former can come from basketball success. The latter is usually only achieved by football success in conjunction with success in other sports. Success in other sports, but consistent failure in football, doesn't mean squat in the perception of most.

[FargoBison]

In the last 3 weeks alone UNI has been discussed multiple times on PTI, Around the Horn, every Fox Sports Radio Show, Sports Center, nearly every college basketball game and pre/post game show, featured on ESPN's website, Sports Illustrated's website, had more columns written by national writters, mentioned on twitter by Bilas, Dickie V, Palm, KenPom, etc..., have players in contention for a NATIONAL POY, etc...

You don't have to believe it, but the national exposure UNI has gotten the last 2 or 3 months is beyond 4 years of NDSU football. Hell, the fact that is even "close to debatable" is more than enough proof to show what exposure is better.

You don't think NDSU football was ever mentioned on Sports Center or radio shows? Of course they were, you are giving me 4 years to work with and twice in that period NDSU hosted CFB Gameday that reaches 2 million viewers. They were mentioned and talked about on that show once they hosted it the first time. The hosts of that show tweeted a lot about NDSU, so did national writers.

UNI needs to do something in the tournament. Otherwise I don't buy it.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You don't think NDSU football was ever mentioned on Sports Center or radio shows? Of course they were, you are giving me 4 years to work with and twice in that period NDSU hosted CFB Gameday that reaches 2 million viewers. They were mentioned and talked about on that show once they hosted it the first time. The hosts of that show tweeted a lot about NDSU, so did national writers.

UNI needs to do something in the tournament. Otherwise I don't buy it.

UNI has already done something in the tournament. The Panthers have achieved success in college basketball prior to this year. Farokhmanesh became a verb for a period of time following the Sweet 16 run. What helps UNI is the fact that the MVC has been on the national radar for the last 10, maybe 15 years. It was a consistent multi bid league in the early to mid 2000's on. Arch Madness has a tremendous reputation when it comes to the best conference tournaments. Wichita State is not some out no-where program. They were darn good with Turgeon and have history dating way back. The MVC is basically big boy high-major hoops along with of the A10, Big East, AAC, MWC, and to some extent the WCC.

North Dakota State is playing 2nd, arguably 3rd level football. Their success and accomplishments warrant recognition and praise. BUT, with the context that they're playing at a lower level of play. UNI and Wichita State are competing for a high seed in the best tournament in the country. Those two have legit Final 4 aspirations. If the Bison truly want to take the athletic profile to another level then they need to fight like hell to get into the MVC.

I think this argument is more about national respect than anything.

[BisonFan02]

UNI has already done something in the tournament. The Panthers have achieved success in college basketball prior to this year. Farokhmanesh became a verb for a period of time following the Sweet 16 run. What helps UNI is the fact that the MVC has been on the national radar for the last 10, maybe 15 years. It was a consistent multi bid league in the early to mid 2000's on. Arch Madness has a tremendous reputation when it comes to the best conference tournaments. Wichita State is not some out no-where program. They were darn good with Turgeon and have history dating way back. The MVC is basically big boy high-major hoops along with of the A10, Big East, AAC, MWC, and to some extent the WCC.

North Dakota State is playing 2nd, arguably 3rd level football. Their success and accomplishments warrant recognition and praise. BUT, with the context that they're playing at a lower level of play. UNI and Wichita State are competing for a high seed in the best tournament in the country. Those two have legit Final 4 aspirations. If the Bison truly want to take the athletic profile to another level then they need to fight like hell to get into the MVC.

I think this argument is more about national respect than anything.

Never going to happen. The Bison will go FBS and all sports MAC before they ever get into the MVC....hell, the Bison have a better shot at the MWC than they do at the MVC using their football program (.000005% versus .000001%).

[Missingnumber7]

I think that the multi-channel CBS Bs has hurt the lower mid-majors that win the second round. Even though the feeds are regionalized. I highly doubt as many people watched NDSU on Tru as did watched the NDSU/Kansas game in 09. I think that there would've been more pub over the upsets then, although if you win an upset in a year when the bracket is full of upsets it isn't going to matter. I think NDSU's pub from the OU game was more for the way they won the game than the fact that they won the game. I will also say that if you don't make it to the second weekend you are all but forgotten. But to compare NDSU's FB and BB pub is more about name recognition than it is about how well the FB and BBall teams did in any of those games. In fact on ESPN last year they still referenced the FB championships. This year the few times there have been NDSU highlights on they haven't mentioned FB, mostly because there is name recognition from the OU win last year. There are too many teams that you may see once or maybe two years in a row and then forget about until they have the next good recruiting class. Thats where the UNI/SIU's have the advantage. If you are a school that plays in a solid conference you're going to get the recognition naturally. That would be why I don't think you can take UNI's standing/feelings on this into effect.

[clenz]

Never going to happen. The Bison will go FBS and all sports MAC before they ever get into the MVC....hell, the Bison have a better shot at the MWC than they do at the MVC using their football program (.000005% versus .000001%).
I believe football is what kept Murray State from getting the look they deserved when the MVC was looking.

If Murray State like support kept the MVC away, NDSU/SDSU is never going to happen.

Imagine the MVC with UNI, WSU and Murray State this season...MSU started bad but beat 4 MVC schools in a 6 game span (Evansville, Drake, SIU and Illinois State)

What could have been....

Or Belmont...or Valpo...

Loyola would look a lot better if Milton Doyle was healthy this season. He is proof 1 player can make that much of a difference.

I think most in the MVC are still holding out that the A10 runs into hard times with the Big East grabbing a couple teams and leaving some combo of St. Louis and/or Dayton out. If the Big East were to raid the A10 and take some combo of VCU, George Washington, Richmond, St. Joes, Duquense and maybe George Mason to get to get to 12-14 it would be interesting to see how quickly SLU and Dayton change their tune on the MVC.

Though, Creighton is hating their move the Big East right now. No one actually wanted the move in the athletic department, it was forced by the school president to be an east coast private Jesuit school. They have no travel partners, are showing that without Dougie Mac they are not even close to anything other than bottom 2 and won't make any kind of post season in the next couple years (the way it looks). They are staring complete anonymity straight in the face, on the national scene, if they don't get it righted real quick. It will be interesting to see how much of a push CU makes to bring SLU to the Big East to "bridge the gap"

[BisonFan02]

I believe football is what kept Murray State from getting the look they deserved when the MVC was looking.

If Murray State like support kept the MVC away, NDSU/SDSU is never going to happen.

Imagine the MVC with UNI, WSU and Murray State this season...MSU started bad but beat 4 MVC schools in a 6 game span (Evansville, Drake, SIU and Illinois State)

What could have been....

Or Belmont...or Valpo...

Loyola would look a lot better if Milton Doyle was healthy this season. He is proof 1 player can make that much of a difference.

I think most in the MVC are still holding out that the A10 runs into hard times with the Big East grabbing a couple teams and leaving some combo of St. Louis and/or Dayton out. If the Big East were to raid the A10 and take some combo of VCU, George Washington, Richmond, St. Joes, Duquense and maybe George Mason to get to get to 12-14 it would be interesting to see how quickly SLU and Dayton change their tune on the MVC.

Though, Creighton is hating their move the Big East right now. No one actually wanted the move in the athletic department, it was forced by the school president to be an east coast private Jesuit school. They have no travel partners, are showing that without Dougie Mac they are not even close to anything other than bottom 2 and won't make any kind of post season in the next couple years (the way it looks). They are staring complete anonymity straight in the face, on the national scene, if they don't get it righted real quick. It will be interesting to see how much of a push CU makes to bring SLU to the Big East to "bridge the gap"

Yeah...but how bout those 4-5 people in Chicago who watch Loyola bball? #mediamarketpipedream UMKC would probably make the move to the MVC...straight up cash money for the KC TV market. xlolx

[FargoBison]

UNI has already done something in the tournament. The Panthers have achieved success in college basketball prior to this year. Farokhmanesh became a verb for a period of time following the Sweet 16 run. What helps UNI is the fact that the MVC has been on the national radar for the last 10, maybe 15 years. It was a consistent multi bid league in the early to mid 2000's on. Arch Madness has a tremendous reputation when it comes to the best conference tournaments. Wichita State is not some out no-where program. They were darn good with Turgeon and have history dating way back. The MVC is basically big boy high-major hoops along with of the A10, Big East, AAC, MWC, and to some extent the WCC.

North Dakota State is playing 2nd, arguably 3rd level football. Their success and accomplishments warrant recognition and praise. BUT, with the context that they're playing at a lower level of play. UNI and Wichita State are competing for a high seed in the best tournament in the country. Those two have legit Final 4 aspirations. If the Bison truly want to take the athletic profile to another level then they need to fight like hell to get into the MVC.

I think this argument is more about national respect than anything.

I never said they had never accomplished anything or that the MVC wasn't a great conference. My argument was purely based on exposure. I showed that rather clearly by pointing out one football game NDSU played in against CCU had more viewers than all the UNI BB games combined that had been on an ESPN network or NBCSN. If this UNI team is going to get tremendous amounts of exposure a run in the dance is what it takes. I think they very well could do that, hell with the right draw they could go a long way like you said. If if they do that they will greatly exceed the amount of exposure NDSU has gotten but if they are one and done which could happen(again it is all about match ups) I think they will be mostly forgotten at a national level.

That is a shame but that is the reality of college basketball, a sport that is really national relevant in March and somewhat relevant outside of March. For a mid-major you need to do well in March, that is when people watch and pay attention to CBB. I wish that wasn't the case, I wish CBB was like CFB but it isn't and really the two are trending in opposite directions. CBB needs to reform and make the game more watchable.

[Laker]

Yeah...but how bout those 4-5 people in Chicago who watch Loyola bball? #mediamarketpipedream UMKC would probably make the move to the MVC...straight up cash money for the KC TV market. xlolx

Why did Denver leave the WAC for the Summit and UMKC leave the Summit for the WAC? It seemed backwards to me with the travel.

[FargoBison]

Why did Denver leave the WAC for the Summit and UMKC leave the Summit for the WAC? It seemed backwards to me with the travel.

Travel is the same, it is all flights regardless for them. Denver being a hub city means easy flights, one of the few places with direct flights to the Dakotas as well.

They left because of Grand Canyon is deemed to academically inferior to them. Denver is a great private school, Grand Canyon is for profit. There were a few other academically unsavory schools in the WAC but it was clear Grand Canyon was the deal breaker for them.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Why did Denver leave the WAC for the Summit and UMKC leave the Summit for the WAC? It seemed backwards to me with the travel.


I think the WAC seems easier pickins for UMKC as well. Didn't make much sense otherwise.

[walliver]

The bang for the buck is different with the two sports.

Basketball gets national publicity. This produces name recognition which is a big asset for recruitment. Prospective students are more likely to visit the school's website or table at a college fair.

Football gets alumni and their checkbooks on campus.

[Twentysix]

While I would generally agree with you.

I would bet money that NDSU football has attracted more super-regional students than basketball. We have a lot more Wisconsin and Nebraska plates on campus now than when I was a freshman. NDSU football has also made the NDSU academic brand a HELL of a lot more attractive to in-state students.

[clenz]

UNI is on the cover of SI this week


At this point, the amount of players interviewed on ESPN, the number of times talked about on ESPN, number of nationally televised games, number of weeks in the rankings (top 10 nationally even), number of national radio/tv shows talking about UNI, number of articles written about UNI, etc...

It's not even close the coverage UNI has gotten since Jan 1st through now between UNI basketball and NDSU football...


Nationally, basketball kills FCS football in national notoriety when it comes to success...

However, each school/region is different with which sport will be the best regional coverage to their school though. NDSU is a football school


http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q340/unipanthers10/5250-Black-comp-600_1024x1024_zpsfshrzj8f.jpg

[clenz]

CBS and ESPN were both in town today filming/interviewing.

[Hammerhead]

I remember wearing a T-shirt from the 1st NDSU FCS championship back in 2012 and the checker at the grocery store said: "Weren't you guys in the basketball tournament a few years ago?"

[Twentysix]

I remember wearing a T-shirt from the 1st NDSU FCS championship back in 2012 and the checker at the grocery store said: "Weren't you guys in the basketball tournament a few years ago?"

Basketball definitely creates a larger* profile nationally. But in the region, football is king.

*=though larger it is still miniscule.

A little while back when I was getting drunk in Wurstkuche the bartender recognized my shirt and told me he knew of NDSU because of our beautiful women's track team. Apparently he had ran track at a Big East school.

Isn't anecdotal evidence cool!

[TheRevSFA]

SFA will be part of the 5 vs 12 feature on Sportscenter sunday