NY Times Pisses On Harvard/Yale

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What a load of baloney (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/17/sports/ncaafootball/17ivy.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin).

Highlights (or lowlights, if you'd like to refer them):


With a 9-1 record, the 1981 Yale football team was one of the best in the East and was briefly ranked in the nation’s top 20. The team produced three National Football League draft picks and averaged nearly 39,000 fans at home games. Yale and other Ivy League teams dominated regional competition, a model of college football functioning in a demanding academic environment.

But less than a month after the 1981 season ended, the Ivy League was expelled from big-time college football. In a squabble over television revenue, the eight Ivy institutions were demoted to the N.C.A.A.’s Division I-AA. Given the chance to appeal, the Ivy League presidents did not protest and instead willingly walked away from the highest level of a game their teams created.

...

But there have been tradeoffs: fewer victories, diminished television exposure, disappointed alumni and dwindling attendance. On the eve of tomorrow’s annual Harvard-Yale game, the wisdom of the 1981 downsizing of football is still broadly debated.

“It has been painful to watch the unnecessary atrophy of the league,” said John Rogan, Yale’s quarterback in 1981.

Yale’s athletic director, Thomas Beckett, said: “The Ivy League should have remained in the top division of college football. We still play quality football with gifted students, but it would have been a wonderful way to continue a worthy tradition.”

...

Indeed, the Ivy League prohibits its football champion from participating in the relatively low-key Division I-AA national championship playoffs. In all other Ivy League sports, from fencing to field hockey, teams are allowed to compete for an N.C.A.A.-recognized national championship, and that is at the top level of Division I.

“Once you start worrying about a national football championship, then you begin to worry about getting the quality of athlete, and the numbers needed, to win a national championship,” Bok said when asked why football is kept out of the postseason playoffs. “And that worry leads to pressure to compromise academic standards to admit those athletes. That’s how even responsible institutions end up doing things they don’t like doing.”

...

But others say Ivy League football is too central to the game’s history to be in its current position. The teams were perennial national champions from 1869 to 1939 and were still nationally ranked well into the 1970s, but now they frequently lose to less established programs with no national reputation. More demoralizing might be that these games are often played in storied locations like the Yale Bowl and Harvard Stadium before crowds that fill only one-fourth of the seats.

“It’s depressing when you can walk up to one of those great old Ivy League places 15 minutes before game time and buy a ticket without even waiting in line,” said Joe Restic, who coached at Harvard for 23 seasons beginning in 1971. “It all started with the I-AA classification. Right away the recruits said to us, ‘I don’t want to play with the second-class citizens.’

...

Yale tackle Ed McCarthy stood not far from Walker. McCarthy’s father, John, played for Yale’s undefeated 1968 team.

“I know the level of play is no longer what it was,” said McCarthy, an all-Ivy and all-Ivy academic team selection. “I read the other day that Yale’s Rich Diana finished 10th in the Heisman Trophy voting in 1981. That’s not happening anymore.

“Obviously, it would be nice right now to be playing for one of the nation’s top teams, to not be a I-AA team. Maybe it comes down to what you’re willing to sacrifice. The Ivy League wanted to keep the legitimacy of its ideals. It cost us football status. But what has it cost the big-time football schools?”

GOD THIS MAKES ME SO F-ING ANGRY!!!! :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
YOU DON'T LIKE IT... LEAVE THE IVY AND JOIN I-A AS A FRIGGIN' INDEPENDENT! PLAY ARMY AND NAVY FOR THE HONOR OF BEING THE BEST 2-9 TEAM... AND STFU!!!!

[griz8791]

But there have been tradeoffs: fewer victories . . .

Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. Don't they basically only play each other and the occasional non-conference non-scholarship program? I don't see how they'd be winning more games if they had stayed I-A.

[USDFAN_55]

What a load of baloney (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/17/sports/ncaafootball/17ivy.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin).

Highlights (or lowlights, if you'd like to refer them):



GOD THIS MAKES ME SO F-ING ANGRY!!!! :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
YOU DON'T LIKE IT... LEAVE THE IVY AND JOIN I-A AS A FRIGGIN' INDEPENDENT! PLAY ARMY AND NAVY FOR THE HONOR OF BEING THE BEST 2-9 TEAM... AND STFU!!!!
You can't just leave the Ivy League. There is too much tradition involved with these schools in this league. What should make you mad is that the Ivy League took this direction, but you can't blame them for puting their academics first.

[Tribe4SF]

What a crock! If you agree to participate in the playoffs you have to sacrifice academic integrity? We won't be looking to bring Bok to W&M in any capacity.:pumpuke:

[Ivytalk]

What a crock! If you agree to participate in the playoffs you have to sacrifice academic integrity? We won't be looking to bring Bok to W&M in any capacity.:pumpuke:

What do you expect from a Stanford grad?:rolleyes:

[OL FU]

But let's face it. The sentiments express are the reasons the Ivy's will never participate in the playoffs. While it is fun to talk about, it is never gonna happen.

[griz8791]

Here's another one:


"It all started with the I-AA classification. Right away the recruits said to us, ‘I don’t want to play with the second-class citizens.’"

Seems like in the last couple of years there has been a steady flow of I-A dropdowns who would rather "play with the second-class citizens" in I-AA than ride the pine at a I-A. I have to believe there are one or two of these guys who could handle the academics in the Ivy League. Maybe not the majority, but there have to be a few. If you're that guy, transferring to an Ivy definitely isn't a "dropdown."

[griz8791]

I guess my previous post is probably naive without knowing more about the scholarship situation at the Ivies.

[OL FU]

The truth of the matter is that college football has changed in large ways since the 70's and 80's and the IVY's did not change with it. There is no way in the world without scholarships and the other accoutrements of BCS football that the IVY's could compete. Another fine example of blame everyone else if the blame belongs to you.

[OL FU]

It is friday and Furman isn't playing this saturday so I may be in a bad mood. We sometimes fill this board with bad feelings about weak conferences, or mid-majors not stepping up ( which some are doing), the SWAC not participating in the playoffs, Blah Blah Blah.

But honestly, little pisses me off more than the "look down your nose" attitudes of the IVY schools when it comes to football. I give all the kudos in the world to the Ivies academics. They are truly second to none. But the attitude that we are not going to compete in the playoffs because we are not going to be second class ticks me off. And let's face it, we can have all the discussion in the world on why the Ivies, don't participate but that is the answer and we all know it.

I wish they would drop the friggin sport.

[Pard4Life]

Again... another crackpot writer... jerk...

Games against non-storied teams??? They play their OOC agaisnt the Patriot League! Lafayette... Lehigh.. Colgate... um, hello... historic programs??? Bucknell won the first Orange Bowl for goodness sake... Holy Cross made bowls... heck Fordham was THE best team in the east for two decades.. Lafayette was a national program...

AGAIN! They don't know what they are talking about.. who else do Ivies play? San Diego? N'eastern? Rhody? Not bad games...

I absolutely don't agree with this:
“Once you start worrying about a national football championship, then you begin to worry about getting the quality of athlete, and the numbers needed, to win a national championship,” Bok said when asked why football is kept out of the postseason playoffs. “And that worry leads to pressure to compromise academic standards to admit those athletes. That’s how even responsible institutions end up doing things they don’t like doing.”

Um.... Harvard's 2004 team had an NFL QB... went 11-0... and very well could have marched to Chattanooga... but they don't even bother to participate, we'll never know. Heck, H-Y-P would be very competitve for the title this year.

They would be compromising NOTHING LESS than what they are presently.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It is friday and Furman isn't playing this saturday so I may be in a bad mood. We sometimes fill this board with bad feelings about weak conferences, or mid-majors not stepping up ( which some are doing), the SWAC not participating in the playoffs, Blah Blah Blah.

But honestly, little pisses me off more than the "look down your nose" attitudes of the IVY schools when it comes to football. I give all the kudos in the world to the Ivies academics. They are truly second to none. But the attitude that we are not going to compete in the playoffs because we are not going to be second class ticks me off. And let's face it, we can have all the discussion in the world on why the Ivies, don't participate but that is the answer and we all know it.

I wish they would drop the friggin sport.

What kills me is the way they want to have it both ways. They lament the fact that they aren't I-A and aren't averaging 39,000 a game, and then turn around and say that "well, if we competed for the championship, we would have to compromise academic ideals."

A great point brought up on the Ivy board about this were two misleading things:


The article says a couple of things that are true but misleading. Siedlicki complains that Yale's average SAT score used to be in the 1300s and now it's 1500, which he says has made recruiting harder. That's true, but everyone's scores have risen since the SAT was re-centered upwards about 10 years ago. A couple of paragraphs later, after a discussion of the Academic Index, it says that Cozza used to get 50 recruits a year and Siedlicki now gets 30. That's also true, but it has nothing to do with the AI. The reason behind it is the abolition of freshman teams, which is a direct result of Title IX (but try getting the Times to admit that).

They ALSO say that they've lost to teams that have "no national reputation". I friggin' beg to differ. Lehigh and Colgate have played on the national stage, with Colgate going to the I-AA Championship game. And what about Villanova, URI, Northeastern? All teams the Ivy has played. [I]This isn't just pissing on the Ivy League, it's pissing on the teams the Ivy plays, which means the rest of I-AA too.

[DetroitFlyer]

He probably got wind of Yale being demolished by non-scholarship, playoff bound, PFL Champion, USD! We all know how quickly USD's national reputation has risen this season!! I'm sure since the Ivy League is also "non-scholarship", the old guard would not let them into the I-AA or CS playoffs anyway....

[OL FU]

He probably got wind of Yale being demolished by non-scholarship, playoff bound, PFL Champion, USD! We all know how quickly USD's national reputation has risen this season!! I'm sure since the Ivy League is also "non-scholarship", the old guard would not let them into the I-AA or CS playoffs anyway....

I know you were trying to be funny.

The Ivies are on the same program as the Patriot, correct?

I don't know so I am asking

but if so, you can delete your post

[DetroitFlyer]

Technically, as I understand it, the Ivy League does not award football scholarships. The Ivy League, does however, provide generous aid for students that wish to attend. It just so happens that some of the students that wish to attend might also be football players.... The Ivy League's aid package is different from the PL. Understanding the details of both leagues aid policies is just not all that simple. All I can tell you is that the PFL has been able to land recruits that were also considering Ivy and PL schools.

[Maverick]

What about the academic ideals of other teams who participate in the NCAA championships? I guess the football team is the only one with academic ideals.

As to non-scholarship, they offer "aid packages" that technically don't count as scholarships but work that way. In fact, a few years ago, Brown was in trouble with the Ivy League for overawarding aid. Since they don't have scholarships how could that happen? This is the biggest con job foisted by the Ivies that they don't have athletic aid. Talk with coaches that have recruited against the Ivies and see if they agree that those teams are truly "non-scholarship".

Tired of all of this type of talk. Stop pissing down my back and telling me it is raining.

[DetroitFlyer]

Believe what you will from this newspaper article.... If a kid has to pay $35K/yr to play football at Yale, or say $25K/yr. to play football at USD or Dayton, I think the PFL schools have a very good chance of "out recruiting" the Ivy League. As I mentioned, many of the kids in the PFL could have played in the PL or Ivy League and decided on the PFL instead.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/17/sports/ncaafootball/17ivy.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&oref=slogin

"The Ivy League, which has never given out athletic scholarships, has a complex statistical rubric for all its athletic recruits called the Academic Index, which converts high school grades or class rank and test scores into a single number assigned to each recruit. There is a minimum Academic Index number allowed for admission, and each institution is allowed only a certain number of recruited athletes at the lowest range of the acceptable index. The information on athletes’ index numbers and the total admitted is shared among the league members.

Before the index’s implementation in the early 1980s, Cozza routinely had 50 recruits yearly at Yale. Siedlecki now receives only 30, and because of additional restrictions imposed by the Ivy presidents a few years ago, Siedlecki gets just two recruits from the lowest range of the index. At one point, he might have gotten four or five times as many.

Another shift has been financial.

“I wonder if the biggest obstacle now isn’t the monetary burden,” said Fred Leone, captain of the 1981 Yale team. “When I went to Yale, I might have been putting my parents out $3,000 a year by going there instead of getting a football scholarship somewhere else. Now, if a recruit has a scholarship offer somewhere, Yale is asking him to give it up and pay maybe $35,000 a year. That’s going to lose you a lot of recruits.”

[Pard4Life]

Believe what you will from this newspaper article.... If a kid has to pay $35K/yr to play football at Yale, or say $25K/yr. to play football at USD or Dayton, I think the PFL schools have a very good chance of "out recruiting" the Ivy League. As I mentioned, many of the kids in the PFL could have played in the PL or Ivy League and decided on the PFL instead.

... I really hope you are joking...

And in response to your first post...

I really hope you were joking...

[OL FU]

Technically, as I understand it, the Ivy League does not award football scholarships. The Ivy League, does however, provide generous aid for students that wish to attend. It just so happens that some of the students that wish to attend might also be football players.... The Ivy League's aid package is different from the PL. Understanding the details of both leagues aid policies is just not all that simple. All I can tell you is that the PFL has been able to land recruits that were also considering Ivy and PL schools.

And I apologise for over-reacting, I really just did not want the thread to descend in to the "Old Guard" threads that are all over this board

[DetroitFlyer]

Too Late....

The Ivy League is now officially booted from the ranks of "real" I-AA leagues and assigned to the so called "Mid-Major" status the NEC, PFL and MAAC have long been tagged with by the old guard! No more screaming for the Ivy League to participate in the I-AA or CS playoffs. Maybe if they ask nice, Patty V. can get them set up somehow to participate in the Gridiron Classic process...:D

[I-AA Fan]

this is the NY Times...need I say more?

[youwouldno]

Wait, I'm confused. If the Ivies were I-A, they'd have to give out 83 full scholarships. And if they didn't "compromise" academic standards, they would have no chance at competing. Even if they did, they would have no chance.

Yeah, it was nice decades ago when college football wasn't a huge money sport and there was more parity. Those days are over, and I'm surprised by the ignorance of the people interviewed for the article.

[OL FU]

Too Late....

The Ivy League is now officially booted from the ranks of "real" I-AA leagues and assigned to the so called "Mid-Major" status the NEC, PFL and MAAC have long been tagged with by the old guard! No more screaming for the Ivy League to participate in the I-AA or CS playoffs. Maybe if they ask nice, Patty V. can get them set up somehow to participate in the Gridiron Classic process...:D

I agree. I guess my anger should be directed at the NCAA which forces lower level teams to participate in I-AA. Thanks for allowing me to descend into the depths. :rolleyes:

[OL FU]

Wait, I'm confused. If the Ivies were I-A, they'd have to give out 83 full scholarships. And if they didn't "compromise" academic standards, they would have no chance at competing. Even if they did, they would have no chance.

Yeah, it was nice decades ago when college football wasn't a huge money sport and there was more parity. Those days are over, and I'm surprised by the ignorance of the people interviewed for the article.

You have confused ignorance with arrogance:smiley_wi

[ucdtim17]

You guys should maybe calm down a little bit. I-AA is a lower level of play than I-A. I-AA is way down on the radar below I-A and always will be. Accept it. It's not changing anytime soon.

[youwouldno]

You guys should maybe calm down a little bit. I-AA is a lower level of play than I-A. I-AA is way down on the radar below I-A and always will be. Accept it. It's not changing anytime soon.

And I-A is below the NFL. So what?

[OL FU]

You guys should maybe calm down a little bit. I-AA is a lower level of play than I-A. I-AA is way down on the radar below I-A and always will be. Accept it. It's not changing anytime soon.

I have never had a problem with accepting that premise. I have a problem when a participant in I-AA can't accept it and accept that their situation is of their own making, not the divisions.

[ucdtim17]

And I-A is below the NFL. So what?


Exactly. So don't take so much offense to an article that talks about how Ivies are disappointed to be playing at a lower level - it is a lower level and they are allowed to be disappointed. You guys getting worked up and flooding this writer's inbox is not going to change anything

[ucdtim17]

Everyone would like to be one of the nation's top teams. These guys used to have that. They obviously don't anymore, through some fault of their own and some beyond their control.

[OL FU]

Exactly. So don't take so much offense to an article that talks about how Ivies are disappointed to be playing at a lower level - it is a lower level and they are allowed to be disappointed. You guys getting worked up and flooding this writer's inbox is not going to change anything

That is correct.

I don't have a problem with the writer. I have problem with the Ivies and the NCAA:smiley_wi


And that fact that it isn't going to change does not mean I can't vent:D

[OL FU]

Everyone would like to be one of the nation's top teams. These guys used to have that. They obviously don't anymore, through some fault of their own and some beyond their control.



through some fault of their own :nod:

some beyond their control:nono:

If the Ivies wanted it differently, they could do it. and therein lies the problem. Don't blame I-AA for your problems.

I am one of those posters that has no bad feelings about a team moving to I-A, I-AA or II or whatever. The NCAA offers lots of different alternatives. Find your spot and be happy about it. If you are not willing to do what is required to be I-A, don't blame I-AA. Pretty simple.

[youwouldno]

Exactly. So don't take so much offense to an article that talks about how Ivies are disappointed to be playing at a lower level - it is a lower level and they are allowed to be disappointed. You guys getting worked up and flooding this writer's inbox is not going to change anything

It shows a lack of respect for the athletes, coaches, and fans. And there is no reason to be 'disappointed' for a program playing at the level it belongs.

[OL FU]

It shows a lack of respect for the athletes, coaches, and fans. And there is no reason to be 'disappointed' for a program playing at the level it belongs.

Absolutely. and if you are going to express disappoint tell the truth about it. We are not willing to do what needs to be done to compete at that level. Not "we lose recruits because we are I-AA".

[ucdtim17]

If the Ivies wanted it differently, they could do it. and therein lies the problem. Don't blame I-AA for your problems.

I am one of those posters that has no bad feelings about a team moving to I-A, I-AA or II or whatever. The NCAA offers lots of different alternatives. Find your spot and be happy about it. If you are not willing to do what is required to be I-A, don't blame I-AA. Pretty simple.

Schools that don't have the same admission requirements as the Ivies passed them by a long time ago and they stayed in I-A with one hand tied behind their backs (as Stanford, Duke, and NW continue to, to some extent). The football "landscape" changed, if you will. It's not all their fault. I don't think if they decided tomorrow they wanted a top-10 I-A team, that they could do it

[OL FU]

Schools that don't have the same admission requirements as the Ivies passed them by a long time ago and they stayed in I-A with one hand tied behind their backs (as Stanford, Duke, and NW continue to, to some extent). The football "landscape" changed, if you will. It's not all their fault. I don't think if they decided tomorrow they wanted a top-10 I-A team, that they could do it

It is too their fault. Their choice may be appropriate, commendable and any other postive statement you can say. But it is their choice. So say we can't compete due to academics. Don't say we lost recruits because we are in I-AA.

And if they made exceptions like some other highly rated academic schools ( notre Dame, for example) they could in a very short period of time be competitive in I-A. Or some of them could.

However, the point is again. If circumstances around you change and you make the decision not to change with them, it isn't the circumstances fault.

[OL FU]

It is too their fault. Their choice may be appropriate, commendable and any other postive statement you can say. But it is their choice. So say we can't compete due to academics. Don't say we lost recruits because we are in I-AA.

And if they made exceptions like some other highly rated academic schools ( notre Dame, for example) they could in a very short period of time be competitive in I-A. Or some of them could.

However, the point is again. If circumstances around you change and you make the decision not to change with them, if isn't the circumstances fault.

:eyebrow: I would never have thought that number 6000 would have been about this crap:eyebrow: :o

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Exactly. So don't take so much offense to an article that talks about how Ivies are disappointed to be playing at a lower level - it is a lower level and they are allowed to be disappointed. You guys getting worked up and flooding this writer's inbox is not going to change anything

:nonono2:

Come on, this is 1981 they're lamenting about. Twenty freakin' years ago. Are Patriot League fans allowed to be disappointed that Lafayette has gone downhill since their 1895 national championship? (Which, incidentally, is part of the "inferior competition" that the Ivies are supposedly losing to now in the article.)

THE ATHLETES PLAYING THIS YEAR'S H/Y GAME WERE IN DIAPERS, OR NOT EVEN BORN.

[Ivytalk]

That is correct.

I don't have a problem with the writer. I have problem with the Ivies and the NCAA:smiley_wi


And that fact that it isn't going to change does not mean I can't vent:D

Vent away, OL FU. I still like you!:p

[OL FU]

Vent away, OL FU. I still like you!:p

Oh there you are.
Everytime I posted, right before I hit the submit button, I thought of how much admiration and respect I have for Ivytalk:nod:



and I still hit the damn button:smiley_wi

[bostonspider]

Well one thing that you all are not really considering is the feeling that the Ivies might have that they were forced to go to I-AA, as was stated in the beginning of the article, for reasons that did not have to do with number of scholarships, or even stadium size. I know that Richmond still has some lingering resentment that they were not allowed by the city to either renovate and enlarge City Stadium or build a new stadium that would have allowed them to stay at the I-A level, and continue to schedule traditional rivals like VaTech, WVU and others at home. I was at the Yale - Princeton Game last weekend (with 45,000 other people), and was at Harvard last year, and it is interesting to see the Rose Bowl banner or National Champion Banners. Did you know that Yale has more Football National Championships than any other school?

[ucdtim17]

:nonono2:

Come on, this is 1981 they're lamenting about. Twenty freakin' years ago. Are Patriot League fans allowed to be disappointed that Lafayette has gone downhill since their 1895 national championship? (Which, incidentally, is part of the "inferior competition" that the Ivies are supposedly losing to now in the article.)

THE ATHLETES PLAYING THIS YEAR'S H/Y GAME WERE IN DIAPERS, OR NOT EVEN BORN.

I think for the people who played for the teams back in the day, it's understandable to be disappointed that the current teams do not play at the same level. Is it insulting? I don't know - as I said, everyone here should know that it is a lower level. Life's too short to get yourself worked up over something like this :twocents:

And it's friday :rotateh:

[walliver]

Well one thing that you all are not really considering is the feeling that the Ivy might have that they were forced to go to I-AA, as was stated in the beginning of the article, for reasons that did not have to do with number of scholarships, or even stadium size. I know that Richmond still has some lingering resentment that they were not allowed by the city to either renovate and enlarge City Stadium or build a new stadium that would have allowed them to stay at the I-A level, and continue to schedule traditional rivals like VaTech, WVU and others at home. I was at the Yale - Princeton Game last weekend (with 45,000 other people), and was at Harvard last year, and it is interesting to see the Rose Bowl banner or National Champion Banners. Did you know that Yale has more Football National Championships than any other school?

If Richmond had enlarged their stadium, I doubt that Virginia Texh and West Virginia would be playing games in Richmond. The BCS vs. everybody else divide probably would have occurred even if I-AA had never been created.

If the Ivies had somehow stayed in I-A (even without scholarships) they would have long ago been relegated to the "mid-majors" of I-A and the NY Times would be complaining about the Ivy League's downfall.:twocents:

[griz8791]

And there is no reason to be 'disappointed' for a program playing at the level it belongs.

I think this is the whole point. I-AA is a better fit for what they are trying to do than I-A.

And then for me the next problem is their complaining about I-AA being "second-class" without shouldering their fair share of the responsibility for doing anything about it. They could be participating in the playoffs right now but they don't want to. Maybe their participation wouldn't immediately solve I-AA's PR problem, but I have to believe it would help a lot. The Ivies deservedly have tremendous name recognition. Their academic reputation and their proud football tradition would make the I-AA playoffs a much more attractive product. It would definitely make it a lot harder for know-nothing sportswriters to blow off the I-AA playoffs. Maybe they wouldn't win the NC every year but that's no reason not to compete for it. And I really believe their joining in the competition would go a long way toward getting more people to pay attention to I-AA.

[griz8791]

Let me put it this way: I understand the Ivies are Division I in all sports. Are there any other sports in which they voluntarily choose not to participate in post-season competition? If not, why single out football? Their refusal to participate contributes to the stigma noted in this NYT article.

[kardplayer]

I think the whole concept of being "forced down" is a croc anyway. Its not like they were playing Big 10 schools in the early 80's...

Harvard OOC 1980 & 1981 - definitely I-AA calibur
Holy Cross
Army
W&M

Yale OOC 1980 - definitely I-A calibur
UConn
Air Force
Boston College

Yale OOC 1981 - arguably I-A calibur
UConn
Navy
Holy Cross

Princeton OOC 1980 - I-AA calibur
Rutgers (got smoked)
Colgate (won by 4)
Maine (won by 17)

Princeton OOC 1981 - I-AA calibur
Delaware (lost by 53)
Army (lost by 34)
Maine (lost by 11)

[rcny46]

You can't just leave the Ivy League. There is too much tradition involved with these schools in this league. What should make you mad is that the Ivy League took this direction, but you can't blame them for puting their academics first.

I don't understand why you think they are putting their academics first.

[DFW HOYA]

Sad to say, but most of the article rings true...for SOME of the Ivy schools.

H-Y-P and Penn could have made it in I-A. Dartmouth, Cornell, Brown, and Columbia most assuredly couldn't.

There are a dozen or so former I-A schools in I-AA that for whatever reason do not compete at trhe highest level anymore (Colgate, Fordham, Holy Cross, Georgetown, Villanova, W&M, Drake, etc.) Few had the national exposure of the Ivies and fewer had the recruiting pull the Ivies had nationally. However, for Derek Bok and the ivory tower club to equivocate dropping down with being better academics is semantics. If the Ivies really wanted to play I-A, they could do so and significantly not water down academics, simply by being such a draw that no top athlete could refuse an offer.

[MplsBison]

I've said this before and it's still as true as ever.

Stanford is a top 10 university in the world, any way you slice it, rank it, classify it, whatever.

And yet they manage to play DI-A football in one of the best conferences in the nation.

Yet Harvard can't do the same?

Come on now.


I think Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, and Cornell could all easily make it in DI-A.

Not sure about Brown, Columbia, or Dartmouth.

[Steven Bryant]

I think the Ivy schools could still work in the I-A level. Like it's been mentioned before, Stanford can do it, the Ivies can too. Hell, Army and Navy stay at I-A with no real chance at being a real force, the Ivies will at least have games against each other to pad their schedule. I'm sure the draw of some of the big

[Steven Bryant]

I think the Ivy schools could still work in the I-A level. Like it's been mentioned before, Stanford can do it, the Ivies can too. Hell, Army and Navy stay at I-A with no real chance at being a real force, the Ivies will at least have games against each other to pad their schedule. I'm sure the draw of some of the matchup possibilites with traditional rivals like Rutgers, Notre Dame, Army, etc. would be finacial windfalls too.

Steve

[blukeys]

I think the whole concept of being "forced down" is a croc anyway. Its not like they were playing Big 10 schools in the early 80's...

Harvard OOC 1980 & 1981 - definitely I-AA calibur
Holy Cross
Army
W&M

Yale OOC 1980 - definitely I-A calibur
UConn
Air Force
Boston College

Yale OOC 1981 - arguably I-A calibur
UConn
Navy
Holy Cross

Princeton OOC 1980 - I-AA calibur
Rutgers (got smoked)
Colgate (won by 4)
Maine (won by 17)

Princeton OOC 1981 - I-AA calibur
Delaware (lost by 53)
Army (lost by 34)
Maine (lost by 11)

Yes I too laughed at the argument that the Ivies were I-A top 20 type teams in the 80's. This bozo must have been born in 1981 and is too young (or since he is a Times writer too stupid) to know that even in the 60's the Ivies were not REALLY in the upper echelons of the sport. From My Blue Hen Memory here are a couple of other beat downs Of Ivies I remember.

10/26/81 Princeton 61-8
11/7/81 Pennyslvania 40-6
9/24/83 Pennsylvania 40-7

(I know you have the first one)

Back then the games that were tough for us were Youngstown State, Citadel and the assorted Yankee's. West Chester State provided better competition in the 80's than the Ivies.

[grayghost06]

Well one thing that you all are not really considering is the feeling that the Ivies might have that they were forced to go to I-AA, as was stated in the beginning of the article, for reasons that did not have to do with number of scholarships, or even stadium size. I know that Richmond still has some lingering resentment that they were not allowed by the city to either renovate and enlarge City Stadium or build a new stadium that would have allowed them to stay at the I-A level, and continue to schedule traditional rivals like VaTech, WVU and others at home. I was at the Yale - Princeton Game last weekend (with 45,000 other people), and was at Harvard last year, and it is interesting to see the Rose Bowl banner or National Champion Banners. Did you know that Yale has more Football National Championships than any other school?
Okay....Boston Spider or perhaps any Ivy, or Southern Conference poster could enlighten me on this....What exactly were the parameters in 1981 that forced these teams to go from IA to IAA?...Was it a vote by each conference? Boston Spider mentions stadium size, but that could not have been the issue as half the MAC schools have stadiums of less than 30,000 and they are still IA. Was it average attendance? Did the big boys form some sort of coalition that left out the IVY and SOCON?...Or was it an unwillingness to offer the IA scholarship level( I think it used to be 95 - and the original IAA was 70)? I think we are all more or less familiar with the requirements to go I-A, but what "forced" these teams down to IAA?

[youwouldno]

I've said this before and it's still as true as ever.

Stanford is a top 10 university in the world, any way you slice it, rank it, classify it, whatever.

And yet they manage to play DI-A football in one of the best conferences in the nation.

Yet Harvard can't do the same?

Come on now.


I think Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, and Cornell could all easily make it in DI-A.

Not sure about Brown, Columbia, or Dartmouth.

It's called being in the state of California and the PAC-10-- which is not primarily made up of small, ultra-high academic schools. And Stanford has mostly sucked, too.

[Green26]

After skimming this thread, here are a few observations:

The Ivies played UNH, Villanouva and various Patriot league teams this year. They sometimes play army or navy. The conference Sagarin rating is currently 6th in I-AA schools, and is set forth at the bottom of this post.

The presidents of the schools are the ones who decide on playoff participation, and oppose participating in the playoffs. It's all about academics and the playoffs occurring during the time of finals, and has nothing to do with looking down their noses.

One or two Ivies consistently rank in the top 20, and the Penn and Harvard teams in recent history could play with most of the top I-AA schools and in the best I-AA conferences, in my view.

Dartmouth was the last Ivy team to be ranked in Division I (14th in 1970). That team also won the Lambert Trophy, ahead of Penn St., which was 7-3. I believe Penn St. had Franco Harris and Lydell Mitchell at running back, and one or two of the other players who eventually played for the Steelers. Dartmouth won the Lambert Trophy twice in the 60's, I believe (1965 and 1962). I think Princeton may have won the LT during the 60's or late 50's. Ed Marinaro was on the cover of SI in 1971, runner up for the Heisman, and one of the first backs picked in the NFL draft that year. Calvin Hill was a first round pick after the 1969 (?) season.

I think the high academic standards, i.e. the academic index, have a large impact on the quality of recruits. This standard is higher than the other high academic schools, like Stanford, Notre Dame, NW and Tulane.

The financial aid packages are more flexibile than they were in the past (prior to an antitrust lawsuit), but are nothing close to athletic scholarships.

Yes, times have changed, for multiple reasons. I believe the move to I-AA was the beginning of the decline (or the inability to keep up with the I-A schools). I don't necessary see this as a bad thing (and I played in the Ivies).

12 GREAT WEST
13 ATLANTIC 10
14 GATEWAY
15 SUN BELT
16 BIG SKY
17 SOUTHERN
18 IVY LEAGUE
19 SOUTHLAND
20 BIG SOUTH
21 PATRIOT LEAGUE
22 OHIO VALLEY
23 MID-EASTERN
24 SOUTHWESTERN
25 NORTHEAST

[Death Dealer]

I still say that if you are going to be a part of the newly re-named CS, then you should have to participate in the part of it that makes us the CS. If not then get the F@#K OUT!!!!

[SoCon48]

What kills me is the way they want to have it both ways. They lament the fact that they aren't I-A and aren't averaging 39,000 a game, and then turn around and say that "well, if we competed for the championship, we would have to compromise academic ideals."

A great point brought up on the Ivy board about this were two misleading things:



They ALSO say that they've lost to teams that have "no national reputation". I friggin' beg to differ. Lehigh and Colgate have played on the national stage, with Colgate going to the I-AA Championship game. And what about Villanova, URI, Northeastern? All teams the Ivy has played. [I]This isn't just pissing on the Ivy League, it's pissing on the teams the Ivy plays, which means the rest of I-AA too.

What kills me is the way they want to have it both ways. They lament the fact that they aren't I-A and aren't averaging 39,000 a game, and then turn around and say that "well, if we competed for the [I-AA] championship, we would have to compromise academic ideals."

I agree on the academics. It's asinine that teams play right trough exams in many cases to compete in the 4 game play-off series after a grueling season. It's contrary to the NCAA's stance.

[MplsBison]

It's called being in the state of California and the PAC-10-- which is not primarily made up of small, ultra-high academic schools.

The point was that you can be an ultra high academic school, which Stanford is, and still play at the top level.

Also:

Cornell -
13.5 undergrad
6k postgrad

Harvard -
6.6k undergrad
13k postgrad

Penn -
9.7k undergrad
10k postgrad

Columbia -
5.5k undergrad
14.7k postgrad


those 4, at least, aren't small by any measure. The other 4 are relatively small.


Columbia I don't think would make it as a DI-A school, simply looking at their facilities and lack of space to upgrade. Maybe, but I don't think so.

[DFW HOYA]

Columbia I don't think would make it as a DI-A school, simply looking at their facilities and lack of space to upgrade. Maybe, but I don't think so.

And that's the point. The big four weren't going to let the smaller four wither away. Unity was more important to the school presidents than the the big-time

Obviously, Boston College doesn't subscribe to this. xlolx

[OL FU]

Okay....Boston Spider or perhaps any Ivy, or Southern Conference poster could enlighten me on this....What exactly were the parameters in 1981 that forced these teams to go from IA to IAA?...Was it a vote by each conference? Boston Spider mentions stadium size, but that could not have been the issue as half the MAC schools have stadiums of less than 30,000 and they are still IA. Was it average attendance? Did the big boys form some sort of coalition that left out the IVY and SOCON?...Or was it an unwillingness to offer the IA scholarship level( I think it used to be 95 - and the original IAA was 70)? I think we are all more or less familiar with the requirements to go I-A, but what "forced" these teams down to IAA?

First just to make sure we understand, Richmond was not in the SoCon in 1981.

My understanding is SoCon and other conferences fit the criteria for I-AA and were effectively told you will go to I-AA. I assume the criteria was silimar to what it is today, #of schollies. I recall some trepidation in the SoCon but I don't recall that much complaining.

And as to Richmond maintaining its rivalries against VA tec, etc. That is the biggest bunch of lack of reality I have heard in a long time.

[MplsBison]

And that's the point. The big four weren't going to let the smaller four wither away. Unity was more important to the school presidents than the the big-time

Obviously, Boston College doesn't subscribe to this. xlolx

They could offer 63 scholarships and participate in the I-AA playoffs.

[bonarae]

NO WAY!!!!!!!!!! The Ivies have so many reasons for not going into this and that but the fans just can't accept them... so does the writer, doesn't he?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Okay....Boston Spider or perhaps any Ivy, or Southern Conference poster could enlighten me on this....What exactly were the parameters in 1981 that forced these teams to go from IA to IAA?...Was it a vote by each conference? Boston Spider mentions stadium size, but that could not have been the issue as half the MAC schools have stadiums of less than 30,000 and they are still IA. Was it average attendance? Did the big boys form some sort of coalition that left out the IVY and SOCON?...Or was it an unwillingness to offer the IA scholarship level( I think it used to be 95 - and the original IAA was 70)? I think we are all more or less familiar with the requirements to go I-A, but what "forced" these teams down to IAA?

I have the exact same question. My cursory research on this didn't really shed any light except that the Ivies called a "special session" to say that next season they were competing in I-AA (which had already been in existence since 1977). But attempts to get away from the Northwestern/Stanford model had started in the 1950's I think already, with increased self-imposed restrictions on football which had only accelerated through the early 1980s. The writer thinks that it was a "squabble over TV revenue".

I still don't feel the outrage that should be directed towards the writer of this article. At the absolute best, it can be seen as a battle of the two camps: those that wanted to stay I-A versus the "we're happy playing in a lesser league" - however, if you indeed accept this, you have to swallow the drivel that I-AA is inferior competition. As points to his argument, he offers "gems" like this:


From 1956 to 1981, the eight Ivy League teams had a .562 winning percentage against nonleague opponents, and those games often included prominent national football programs — Penn would play Penn State, for example. From 1982 through 2006, the league had a .453 winning percentage against outside opponents. And in most cases, schedules have been downgraded — Cornell has played Albany and Columbia has faced Iona.