SCSU Might Be Shut Down Unitl 2017

[Sir William]

Bad news for the Bulldogs. Plan would also call for suspension of all athletic programs.

http://www.thestate.com/2015/02/10/3980563_house-panel-votes-to-close-sc.html?rh=1

[kdinva]

Ouch.......S C State's 8 MEAC opponents should be able to "re-schedule" in the next few weeks, with each other, what with the MEAC being the size it is.....

[CoastalFan2005]

(Mods, Please Delete)

[CoastalFan2005]

Interesting that this is even a remote possibility - could have a major affect on FCS scheduling around the southeast if it does happen. It's more likely this is just posturing from the politicians with all of SCSU's recent money troubles, though.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Budget panel members said S.C. State President Thomas Elzey has not done enough to turn around the school’s financial fortunes since arriving in 2013. The problems pre-date Elzey when school leaders borrowed money to cover deficits.

Panel members said they were not pleased that part of Elzey’s budget request for next year included $6 million to pay back an earlier state loan.

So let me get this straight - they're upset that the school borrowed to covered deficits, and THEN they get upset that their budget request from the state is being used to.... pay back the loan. In a year's time! xcrazyx

Glad to see there's no politics being played in the SC statehouse. xlolx

Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2015/02/10/3980563_house-panel-votes-to-close-sc.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

[Panther88]

Horrible. xsmhx

[clenz]

I'm going to beat bluedog to the punch....


RACISM...


Back to being logical on this thread

[nwFL Griz]

So let me get this straight - they're upset that the school borrowed to covered deficits, and THEN they get upset that their budget request from the state is being used to.... pay back the loan. In a year's time! xcrazyx

Glad to see there's no politics being played in the SC statehouse. xlolx

Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2015/02/10/3980563_house-panel-votes-to-close-sc.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

You do understand they are asking for state money to pay back state money, right?

It's like opening a new credit card to pay off an existing credit card.

[3rd Coast Tiger]

It's more likely this is just posturing from the politicians with all of SCSU's recent money troubles, though.

I'm calling bullhsit on this one too; political posturing.

[Catsfan90]

What does this do for NCAA eligibility when they do come back? If and when the program is restarted, will they immediately be eligible? Are there any other schools in modern times that have faced this situation, and were able to retain football?

[kdinva]

What does this do for NCAA eligibility when they do come back? ?

If they don't transfer and play (immediately), then their five year clock "stops"....

[taper]

S.C. State’s enrollment has dropped sharply in recent years and just 14 percent of students graduate within four years.

S.C. State’s accreditation remains on probation because of financial and accounting issues.

I know nothing about the politics behind this, but if the above statements are true maybe this place should be shut down.

[FUBeAR]

It's like opening a new credit card to pay off an existing credit card.

Is there a problem with that? My wife says it's perfectly OK.

[Gordon Shumway]

I know nothing about the politics behind this, but if the above statements are true maybe this place should be shut down.

I agree. Hate to say it, but what is the purpose of a university, if it is only graduating 14% of the students, and the other 86% are only enjoying a slightly prolonged adolescence.

[walliver]

At one time, SC State attracted the brightest African-American students from across South Carolina (Strom Thurmond's daughter attended). Now the school primarily attracts students who can't get into any other school. After their first year, most of these poorly qualified students lose their lottery money and drop out. Many millions of dollars have disappeared, mostly due to corruption and theft. Much of the campus is in disrepair. The financial records are so bad that the new president has been unable to complete an audit to see where the money has gone. If this were a private institution is would close permanently.

I doubt the school closes. But I also doubt it will fully recover and will likely end up in the USC system. I doubt D-I FCS football will survive. Either football will be dropped or the athletic program move to D-2.

[WestCoastAggie]

Call me whatever, but this move hurts my soul.

[citdog]

At one time, SC State attracted the brightest African-American students from across South Carolina (Strom Thurmond's daughter attended). Now the school primarily attracts students who can't get into any other school. After their first year, most of these poorly qualified students lose their lottery money and drop out. Many millions of dollars have disappeared, mostly due to corruption and theft. Much of the campus is in disrepair. The financial records are so bad that the new president has been unable to complete an audit to see where the money has gone. If this were a private institution is would close permanently.

I doubt the school closes. But I also doubt it will fully recover and will likely end up in the USC system. I doubt D-I FCS football will survive. Either football will be dropped or the athletic program move to D-2.

Well said. This school needs to be shuttered. Millions of dollars of taxpayer money unaccounted from the James Clyburn D-SC transportation center. Millions more taxpayer funds just stolen. Federal corruption charges, caught on tape, against former trustees. How much longer will the taxpayers of the State of South Carolina be forced to prop up this complete and utter failure? I feel sorry for Buddy Pough.

[bonarae]

Hmm, is it becoming part of the "HBCU's in crisis" epidemic?

[clenz]

Hmm, is it becoming part of the "HBCU's in crisis" epidemic?
Sounds like something worth discussing

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[WileECoyote06]

At one time, SC State attracted the brightest African-American students from across South Carolina (Strom Thurmond's daughter attended). Now the school primarily attracts students who can't get into any other school. After their first year, most of these poorly qualified students lose their lottery money and drop out. Many millions of dollars have disappeared, mostly due to corruption and theft. Much of the campus is in disrepair. The financial records are so bad that the new president has been unable to complete an audit to see where the money has gone. If this were a private institution is would close permanently.

I doubt the school closes. But I also doubt it will fully recover and will likely end up in the USC system. I doubt D-I FCS football will survive. Either football will be dropped or the athletic program move to D-2.

Reducing the athletics expenses was an oft-mentioned reaction by the legislators. They should have transitioned to D2 in 2013, just to show a good faith effort.

It hurts to see a public hbcu teeter on the brink of extinction, especially a conference mate. And a school that educated quite a few of my family members (my folks are from Kingstree area). But they had better learn how to negotiate. . . heck at this point it may be too late to negotiate. They better learn how to beg.

[CasualFan]

I remember something about SCSU getting a double whammy when SC cut back on higher ed after the collapse of the housing bubble. Almost all public schools around the country were affected by their own state's budget woes, but I think that HBCU's got hit twice because of matching federal contributions. In other words, if the state cut their funding by $1 million, they lost $2 million because of the matching.

I could be completely wrong on this, and will certainly defer to anyone else with knowledge.

[citdog]

I remember something about SCSU getting a double whammy when SC cut back on higher ed after the collapse of the housing bubble. Almost all public schools around the country were affected by their own state's budget woes, but I think that HBCU's got hit twice because of matching federal contributions. In other words, if the state cut their funding by $1 million, they lost $2 million because of the matching.

I could be completely wrong on this, and will certainly defer to anyone else with knowledge.

No other Palmetto State College is unable to account for over 20 million dollars.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Arne Duncan is at least partially to blame for his tightening of lending standards for many students attending HBCUs.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/09/27/speaking-black-college-leaders-arne-duncan-apologizes-plus-loan-denials

Lost in those graduation rate numbers were the numbers of students that could no longer afford to go to schools like SCSU because many families that qualified for loans before no longer did, necessitating kids to drop out. It was a sharp loss in tuition income. I'm positive this contributed.

[citdog]

Arne Duncan is at least partially to blame for his tightening of lending standards for many students attending HBCUs.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/09/27/speaking-black-college-leaders-arne-duncan-apologizes-plus-loan-denials

Lost in those graduation rate numbers were the numbers of students that could no longer afford to go to schools like SCSU because many families that qualified for loans before no longer did, necessitating kids to drop out. It was a sharp loss in tuition income. I'm positive this contributed.

You can try and spin this any way you like but this is about theft and corruption at State. This is also a domestic affair for South Carolina. Your thoughts are not wanted and we thank You to stay out of our internal affairs.

[WileECoyote06]

You can try and spin this any way you like but this is about theft and corruption at State. This is also a domestic affair for South Carolina. Your thoughts are not wanted and we thank You to stay out of our internal affairs.

Things don't exist in a vacuum. South Carolina State administrators bear much of the blame for their malfeasance and arrogance. However, the Obama administrations wide reaching effort to cripple for-profit institutions, led to many HBCUs being caught as collateral damage. In 2013 alone, nearly 14,600 HBCU students were denied Parent Plus loans, resulting in an estimated 160 million dollars in lost revenue. To add insult to injury, federal appropriations to MSIs through Title III and other programs were cut by millions.

South Carolina State was effected adversely as well. Enrollment plummeted from 4236 students in Fall of 2011 to 3,807 students in Fall of 2012, and then 3,463 students in the Fall of 2013. A loss of nearly 800 students precipitated the need to cut at the institution level and apparently President Elzey did not cut enough to satisfy the members of the committee. The request for additional funding was probably the last straw.

So LFN is correct. BTW, my folks pay taxes to South Carolina, and we own property, and several of my extended family members are SCSU alums; so I can speak on SC affairs.

[OL FU]

I certainly hope it doesn't happen but yes from everything you read and hear SC State is a mess. Not sure what closing the doors to re-open later accomplishes unless it is the only way to fire the current administrators.

[WileECoyote06]

I certainly hope it doesn't happen but yes from everything you read and hear SC State is a mess. Not sure what closing the doors to re-open later accomplishes unless it is the only way to fire the current administrators.

Even if they don't close it; the damage is already done. SCSU lost a public relations battle that will take a decade or more to recover from. I wouldn't be surprised if it came back as a community college.

[OL FU]

Even if they don't close it; the damage is already done. SCSU lost a public relations battle that will take a decade or more to recover from. I wouldn't be surprised if it came back as a community college.

Well maybe that is the reason to close it to start it back as something different. I wasn't thinking about that. It just didn't make sense to close the doors and re-open as the same thing two years later.

Regardless, I hate to see it happen. From a football perspective, I have loved the games with State. From a non-football perspective, I know lots of alums. Would hate to see it go away:(

[walliver]

Arne Duncan is at least partially to blame for his tightening of lending standards for many students attending HBCUs.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/09/27/speaking-black-college-leaders-arne-duncan-apologizes-plus-loan-denials

Lost in those graduation rate numbers were the numbers of students that could no longer afford to go to schools like SCSU because many families that qualified for loans before no longer did, necessitating kids to drop out. It was a sharp loss in tuition income. I'm positive this contributed.

The main issue facing SC State in particular, is that most of their students are receiving financial aid, much of it lottery money. A very large percentage of their freshmen students are unable to maintain an adequate GPA to keep their lottery scholarships. Once the lottery money is gone, these students are gone.

There may be systemic issues facing all HBCU's, but most of SC State's issues are self-inflicted. There is long-term corruption. Unfortunately, the state did not intervene earlier in the school's internal affairs for fears of being labelled as racist. The politicians looked the other way until the situation became untenable. Even James Clyburn, a SC State alumnus, has been quoted as saying he would understand if his kids/grandkids showed no interest in his alma mater.

The current president, who moved there from the Citadel, has tried hard, but, after a year and a half, still can't complete an audit. The last emergency state loan was to pay food service bills that were so long overdue that food services almost had to shut down. The school has been unable to cut expenses to any significant extent, there are too many sacred cows in place. Private donations are unlikely to come in until donors can feel confident that their donations will not "disappear".

Closing the school for two years is not a solution - a school closed for that long would likely never re-open, at least in its current form. The state also doesn't want Al Sharpton and his gang coming down and screaming racism, and the slew of lawsuits that would occur.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Yes, if it closes it's not coming back. I don't think it's going to close, though.

On the other hand, yesterday's developments won't help recruitment/fundraising efforts any. Something major/dramatic is going to have to change at SC State, and I wouldn't be surprised if moving it to the USC system becomes a legitimate possibility. I also suspect that varsity athletics will be completely revamped (although in all fairness, athletics has almost nothing to do with any of SC State's problems).

[walliver]

Today's news:

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150211/PC1603/150219885/1005/updated-caucus-announces-vote-of-no-confidence-on-sc-state-president

[Laker]

Can't they just fire the administration and clean house? It reminds me of burning the barn down to get rid of the rats. If everyone seems to agree that there is incompetency and graft wouldn't it make sense to replace them with someone new? Or have things deteriorated to where they have to close the school down entirely? Why did it get to the point of being so far down in the hole- isn't there any oversight?

[clenz]

Can't they just fire the administration and clean house? It reminds me of burning the barn down to get rid of the rats. If everyone seems to agree that there is incompetency and graft wouldn't it make sense to replace them with someone new? Or have things deteriorated to where they have to close the school down entirely? Why did it get to the point of being so far down in the hole- isn't there any oversight?
A no confidence vote (which isn't a small thing) followed by the entire administration being let go on top of an already troublesom situation would lead to almost instant loss of any accreditation the university has.

If that goes they might as well shut the school down.

[WestCoastAggie]

Can't they just fire the administration and clean house? It reminds me of burning the barn down to get rid of the rats. If everyone seems to agree that there is incompetency and graft wouldn't it make sense to replace them with someone new? Or have things deteriorated to where they have to close the school down entirely? Why did it get to the point of being so far down in the hole- isn't there any oversight?

They did this already. This new President came from the Citadel a year ago, to much praise from the same SCLBC legislators that are now calling for his head.

Letting go of this president would likely mean SACS would strip their accreditation.

[clenz]

They did this already. This new President came from the Citadel a year ago, to much praise from the same SCLBC legislators that are now calling for his head.

Letting go of this president would likely mean SACS would strip their accreditation.
Assuming they don't strictly based on the current issues combined with the no confidence vote

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[RichH2]

The sheer lunacy of politics in all its glory,smh.

[WestCoastAggie]

Assuming they don't strictly based on the current issues combined with the no confidence vote

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

They are currently on probation.

[clenz]

They are currently on probation.
Yep.

They are on very...very...thin ice.

Any sort of extra instability being shown is likely a kiss a death

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[DFW HOYA]

A timeline of the problems that have led to this public impasse.

http://www.wltx.com/story/news/2015/02/11/sc-state-history/23258293/

[walliver]

A timeline of the problems that have led to this public impasse.

http://www.wltx.com/story/news/2015/02/11/sc-state-history/23258293/

This article doesn't even bring up the ongoing scandal with the James Clyburn Transportation Center.

As to how it got this far, it all comes down to South Carolina racial politics.
SC State receives financial assistance from the state at a relatively high per student number. Maybe not enough, but much higher than the money provided to the faster growing schools like Coastal, College of Charleston, and USC-Upstate.
SC State has it's own board, as do most state schools, and functions independently of the other schools. Technically, it reports to the state Board of Higher Education. SC State's board rarely listens to the state board's recommendations, and the state board has traditionally been hesitant to intervene. The legislature appropriates enough money every year to avoid legal problems from the justice department, but rarely gets involved with the school itself. As a result, no-one was in charge when the college's board went rogue.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

When Penn State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "let the courts decide". When South Carolina State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "shut down the school".

Isn't the best solution to have the SC state system come in and take over, and keeping the school open?

[citdog]

When Penn State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "let the courts decide". When South Carolina State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "shut down the school".

Isn't the best solution to have the SC state system come in and take over, and keeping the school open?

Butt out yankee you have no understanding of this. It is like Walliver said.

[OL FU]

When Penn State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "let the courts decide". When South Carolina State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "shut down the school".

Isn't the best solution to have the SC state system come in and take over, and keeping the school open?

Not that I have any great knowledge of this, but I would guess that is a more likely outcome than shutting the doors.

[clenz]

When Penn State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "let the courts decide". When South Carolina State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "shut down the school".

Isn't the best solution to have the SC state system come in and take over, and keeping the school open?
Ah...

You're white guilt is starting to show again

[OL FU]

Ah...

You're white guilt is starting to show again

Nah, the school may be sucking it up big time right now but it has served the state well for years before this happened.

[clenz]

Nah, the school may be sucking it up big time right now but it has served the state well for years before this happened.
Not saying it hasn't.

[WestCoastAggie]

This article doesn't even bring up the ongoing scandal with the James Clyburn Transportation Center.

As to how it got this far, it all comes down to South Carolina racial politics.
SC State receives financial assistance from the state at a relatively high per student number. Maybe not enough, but much higher than the money provided to the faster growing schools like Coastal, College of Charleston, and USC-Upstate.
SC State has it's own board, as do most state schools, and functions independently of the other schools. Technically, it reports to the state Board of Higher Education. SC State's board rarely listens to the state board's recommendations, and the state board has traditionally been hesitant to intervene. The legislature appropriates enough money every year to avoid legal problems from the justice department, but rarely gets involved with the school itself. As a result, no-one was in charge when the college's board went rogue.

And now you also have friends of the ousted board members, whom many were relieved of their jobs at SC State when the new Prez arrived to clean up their crap, stepping to the SCLBC to oust Elzey.

President Elzey proposed plans that would shut down Athletics for a short amount of time and declaring financial exigency, which Southern did a few years ago but the Remaining board members squashed those ideas.

Rumor has it those Democratic officials of the SCLBC partnered with this Sub-Comittee and helped write the proposal that was voted on as a way to put President Elzey "in his place." It's very unlikely the proposal won't leave the State House floor but the State does need to oust the SC State BOT before anything is done. Closing SCSU or even cutting football for an extended period of time would not only hurt Students and Alumni, but it would devastate Orangeburg County.

[WestCoastAggie]

When Penn State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "let the courts decide". When South Carolina State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "shut down the school".

Isn't the best solution to have the SC state system come in and take over, and keeping the school open?

"Apples & Oranges" but I get your point.

[Panther88]

Ah...

You're white guilt is starting to show again

Others are free to join in the pity party. :D

[Libertine]

When Penn State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "let the courts decide". When South Carolina State's brass is found breaking the law, the criminals are forced out, but the plea is "shut down the school".

Isn't the best solution to have the SC state system come in and take over, and keeping the school open?

These situations are significantly different.

First, the Penn State "brass" was one guy assaulting children and a whole bunch of people keeping that quiet. That particular brass amounted to the president, the AD, the football coach and a few underlings. Despite the $60 million fine levied by the NCAA, the school itself was never in danger of financial ruin. So far, the SC State brass has not -- yet -- been found to have broken the law but the brass facing allegations is pretty much the entire Board of Trustees. In addition, the school has been on the financial brink for years.

Second, there is no equivalent in Pennsylvania to the history of racial politics in South Carolina as it pertains to the need for, establishment of and operation of a school like SC State. The closest thing I can think of would be the Carlisle Indian School which, incidentally, closed in 1918 since its reason for existence was no longer in existence. If Pennsylvania had shut Carlisle down in an environment where the school's target racial demographic made up at least 30% of the state population and the state were still flying some version of William Henry Harrison's flag at Tippecanoe on the state house grounds in Harrisburg, then the two might be more closely aligned.

Third, Penn State is the flagship of the Pennsylvania State educational system. SC State is supported -- heavily -- by the state but is not part of the USC system. For the state system to take it over would be, in effect, to shutting it it down and then re-opening it as USC-Orangeburg.

[BullDog85]

And now you also have friends of the ousted board members, whom many were relieved of their jobs at SC State when the new Prez arrived to clean up their crap, stepping to the SCLBC to oust Elzey.

President Elzey proposed plans that would shut down Athletics for a short amount of time and declaring financial exigency, which Southern did a few years ago but the Remaining board members squashed those ideas.

Rumor has it those Democratic officials of the SCLBC partnered with this Sub-Comittee and helped write the proposal that was voted on as a way to put President Elzey "in his place." It's very unlikely the proposal won't leave the State House floor but the State does need to oust the SC State BOT before anything is done. Closing SCSU or even cutting football for an extended period of time would not only hurt Students and Alumni, but it would devastate Orangeburg County. Sounds about right for politics in SC. Elzey is not a SC State grad and I bet when some of the old dogs pals where canned from their no work required paid positions at SC State the plan was put into place to foil Elzey at every turn. Maybe someone in Columbia will wake up and clean out the ole boyz network so this mess can be fixed. Doubt it. It's never that easy here in SC where the legislative branch actually calls ALL of the shots in SC.

[WestCoastAggie]

For those in the know in SC, was this implemented?

If so, SC Statte was really getting plenty of cash from the state:

http://www.scstatehouse.gov/reports/commissiononhighered/che_parityreport_proviso11-16_3jan2014.pdf

[DFW HOYA]

T
Second, there is no equivalent in Pennsylvania to the history of racial politics in South Carolina as it pertains to the need for, establishment of and operation of a school like SC State.

http://www.lincoln.edu/president/index.html

[BullDog85]

For those in the know in SC, was this implemented?

If so, SC Statte was really getting plenty of cash from the state:

http://www.scstatehouse.gov/reports/commissiononhighered/che_parityreport_proviso11-16_3jan2014.pdf
None of the schools got anywhere close to this. What's worst for SC State their enrollment numbers are down big time and this report is using old enrollment numbers. Here's the actual funding. http://www.che.sc.gov/CHE_Docs/Finance/fin/10YR_Appropriations_2015.xlsx

[WestCoastAggie]

None of the schools got anywhere close to this. What's worst for SC State their enrollment numbers are down big time and this report is using old enrollment numbers. Here's the actual funding. http://www.che.sc.gov/CHE_Docs/Finance/fin/10YR_Appropriations_2015.xlsx

They were the 3rd highest of the comprehensive teaching schools in terms of appropriations. Honestly cannot say they weren't getting proper funding. But those enrollment losses form the Plus Loans fiasco hurt the school in addition to the Old Guard being complete Jackasses, reckless with spending.

However, due to the economic crisis, the school funding decreased 50% from about 24 Million around 2007-08 to about 12 million this school year. That hurts.

[Sandlapper Spike]

They were the 3rd highest of the comprehensive teaching schools in terms of appropriations. Honestly cannot say they weren't getting proper funding. But those enrollment losses form the Plus Loans fiasco hurt the school in addition to the Old Guard being complete Jackasses, reckless with spending.

However, due to the economic crisis, the school funding decreased 50% from about 24 Million around 2007-08 to about 12 million this school year. That hurts.

SC State's recurring appropriations in 2015 were 61.7% of what it got in 2006, which is actually lower than any other school in the state. The Citadel's differential was second-lowest (64.2%).

SC State was getting plenty of money, though, right up until 2009 or so. Then things got tight, and the school couldn't figure out what to do about it (along with the double whammy of malfeasance).

[Franks Tanks]

These situations are significantly different.

First, the Penn State "brass" was one guy assaulting children and a whole bunch of people keeping that quiet. That particular brass amounted to the president, the AD, the football coach and a few underlings. Despite the $60 million fine levied by the NCAA, the school itself was never in danger of financial ruin. So far, the SC State brass has not -- yet -- been found to have broken the law but the brass facing allegations is pretty much the entire Board of Trustees. In addition, the school has been on the financial brink for years.

Second, there is no equivalent in Pennsylvania to the history of racial politics in South Carolina as it pertains to the need for, establishment of and operation of a school like SC State. The closest thing I can think of would be the Carlisle Indian School which, incidentally, closed in 1918 since its reason for existence was no longer in existence. If Pennsylvania had shut Carlisle down in an environment where the school's target racial demographic made up at least 30% of the state population and the state were still flying some version of William Henry Harrison's flag at Tippecanoe on the state house grounds in Harrisburg, then the two might be more closely aligned.

Third, Penn State is the flagship of the Pennsylvania State educational system. SC State is supported -- heavily -- by the state but is not part of the USC system. For the state system to take it over would be, in effect, to shutting it it down and then re-opening it as USC-Orangeburg.

PA actually has 2 state supported HBCU's in Cheyney and Lincoln (which are located a few miles away from each other in suburban Philly). Lincoln does alright, but Cheyney is a complete mess that has tremendous difficulty attracting quality students, and has dire financial issues. The state certainly gives Cheyney extra attention, but given that the school has about 1,000 students and D-II athletics the financial black hole isn't as large as SC State.

The Carlisle Indian School was actually run by the federal govt., and most students (like Jim Thorpe) came from the great plains. PA does not have a very large Native American population.

[citdog]

If anyone is looking for a quality Head Coach at the end of the upcoming season you'd be nuts not to talk to Buddy Pough.

[catamount man]

If anyone is looking for a quality Head Coach at the end of the upcoming season you'd be nuts not to talk to Buddy Pough.

One thing I will agree with you about. :D

[rokamortis]

SC State's recurring appropriations in 2015 were 61.7% of what it got in 2006, which is actually lower than any other school in the state. The Citadel's differential was second-lowest (64.2%).

SC State was getting plenty of money, though, right up until 2009 or so. Then things got tight, and the school couldn't figure out what to do about it (along with the double whammy of malfeasance).

I agree that they took big cuts, but those two schools also receive more than their fare share in cost to educate in-state students. The table below shows state appropriations per in-state student and for all students. SC State is 1 and Citadel is 2. Data is for 2013-14.


Institution in-state only all
The Citadel $3,967.68 $2,516.47
Coastal Carolina $1,771.42 $961.78
College of Charleston $2,778.72 $1,694.40
Francis Marion $3,096.63 $2,947.07
Lander $2,356.38 $2,166.36
SC State $4,303.13 $3,597.33
USC Aiken $2,262.26 $1,989.33
USC Beaufort $1,819.02 $1,536.25
USC Upstate $1,779.62 $1,680.59
Winthrop $2,612.35 $2,232.64

SC State has been getting a decent amount but hasn't managed their affairs properly. Compared with similar schools but they haven't been able to manage the hardships while other schools have figured it out (focus on out of state students, increased enrollment, fundraising, making cuts).

The state needs to get to a performance based funding model and base it on actual in-state enrollment.

[WestCoastAggie]

If anyone is looking for a quality Head Coach at the end of the upcoming season you'd be nuts not to talk to Buddy Pough.

It's amazing how that man is able to keep his program flourishing despite the school going nuts with everything going on. Buddy does one amazing job as a Head Coach.

[WestCoastAggie]

I agree that they took big cuts, but those two schools also receive more than their fare share in cost to educate in-state students. The table below shows state appropriations per in-state student and for all students. SC State is 1 and Citadel is 2. Data is for 2013-14.


Institution in-state only all
The Citadel $3,967.68 $2,516.47
Coastal Carolina $1,771.42 $961.78
College of Charleston $2,778.72 $1,694.40
Francis Marion $3,096.63 $2,947.07
Lander $2,356.38 $2,166.36
SC State $4,303.13 $3,597.33
USC Aiken $2,262.26 $1,989.33
USC Beaufort $1,819.02 $1,536.25
USC Upstate $1,779.62 $1,680.59
Winthrop $2,612.35 $2,232.64

SC State has been getting a decent amount but hasn't managed their affairs properly. Compared with similar schools but they haven't been able to manage the hardships while other schools have figured it out (focus on out of state students, increased enrollment, fundraising, making cuts).

The state needs to get to a performance based funding model and base it on actual in-state enrollment.

The thing is now the President wants to make these hard decisions, which could include some tough decisions about SC State football but his BOT keeps stopping him every chance he gets. ALL HBCU's are dealing with budget cuts in their own way and had to make tough decisions every step of the way. SC State, thanks to the crooks they had in charge prior to President Elzey kept kicking the can down the road so they could keep doing what they were doing.

However, I see that board getting replaced sooner than later and SC State coming out of this alive with a long term plan to survive as an HBCU.

[ejjones]

The thing is now the President wants to make these hard decisions, which could include some tough decisions about SC State football but his BOT keep stopping him every chance he gets. ALL HBCU's are dealing with budget cuts in their own way and had to make tough decisions every step of the way. SC State, thanks to the crooks they had in charge prior to President Elzey kept kicking the can down the road so they could keep doing what they were doing.

However, I see that board getting replaced sooner than later and SC State coming out of this alive with a long term plan to survive as an HBCU.

The majority of the BOT are all new; appointed by the same legislature who want to get rid of them. The IG found mismanagement, not fraud. Most of those jokers are gone. I'm sure there's a few hanging around somewhere. Tough times require tough decisions. Shutting down, getting rid of the board/president are all flawed. You're not going to find anyone who has a better resume and knowingly walk into this situation. It will take 5-10 years to ultimatey recover do to the perception alone thanks to the SC politics. However, I do believe with time and good leadership SC State will do just fine.

[melloware13]

These situations are significantly different.

First, the Penn State "brass" was one guy assaulting children and a whole bunch of people keeping that quiet. That particular brass amounted to the president, the AD, the football coach and a few underlings. Despite the $60 million fine levied by the NCAA, the school itself was never in danger of financial ruin. So far, the SC State brass has not -- yet -- been found to have broken the law but the brass facing allegations is pretty much the entire Board of Trustees. In addition, the school has been on the financial brink for years.

Second, there is no equivalent in Pennsylvania to the history of racial politics in South Carolina as it pertains to the need for, establishment of and operation of a school like SC State. The closest thing I can think of would be the Carlisle Indian School which, incidentally, closed in 1918 since its reason for existence was no longer in existence. If Pennsylvania had shut Carlisle down in an environment where the school's target racial demographic made up at least 30% of the state population and the state were still flying some version of William Henry Harrison's flag at Tippecanoe on the state house grounds in Harrisburg, then the two might be more closely aligned.

Third, Penn State is the flagship of the Pennsylvania State educational system. SC State is supported -- heavily -- by the state but is not part of the USC system. For the state system to take it over would be, in effect, to shutting it it down and then re-opening it as USC-Orangeburg.

Penn State is not part of the PA State System. It, Temple, Pittsburgh, and Lincoln are all state-affiliated. The State System has no flagship, but does have a few campuses with financial messes (HBCU or PWI not determining).

[citdog]

The majority of the BOT are all new; appointed by the same legislature who want to get rid of them. The IG found mismanagement, not fraud. Most of those jokers are gone. I'm sure there's a few hanging around somewhere. Tough times require tough decisions. Shutting down, getting rid of the board/president are all flawed. You're not going to find anyone who has a better resume and knowingly walk into this situation. It will take 5-10 years to ultimatey recover do to the perception alone thanks to the SC politics. However, I do believe with time and good leadership SC State will do just fine.

Politics didn't steal taxpayer money or make corrupt deals. Is this yet another inanimate object like "The Street"?

[ejjones]

Politics didn't steal taxpayer money or make corrupt deals. Is this yet another inanimate object like "The Street"?
Unfortunately, there are bad people in the world...you show me a few good & I'll show you a few bad. Those who participated in corrupt activities are being held accountable. I'm sure you're aware. Another reason all of the BOT are fairly new.

[paward]

I am not sure which case scenario I feel sorry for most, the school closing or the comments of some posters on this subject.

[BullDog85]

SC Senate has decided to ignore the Higher Ed Commission and has endorsed Elzey staying aboard. I imagine the BOD has been read the riot act and will be cutting expenses in order to right this ship.

[ejjones]

SC Senate has decided to ignore the Higher Ed Commission and has endorsed Elzey staying aboard. I imagine the BOD has been read the riot act and will be cutting expenses in order to right this ship.

Where did you see / read this? Link?

[Twentysix]

What would make this school open again? In 2 years LOL. They are going to rebuild an entire faculty? No one is going to wait around without a job... they will have 0 profs, 0 students, shaky immediate history, 0 administrators..

If this thing closes, or did, it is closed for good imo.

Saying it will reopen in two years is surely a way to sell it to the public.

[DFW HOYA]

SC State's debt is up to $17 million, no plan submitted to address it.

http://www.thestate.com/2015/02/17/3994575_sc-states-deficit-grows-to-17.html?rh=1

[Libertine]

Penn State is not part of the PA State System. It, Temple, Pittsburgh, and Lincoln are all state-affiliated. The State System has no flagship, but does have a few campuses with financial messes (HBCU or PWI not determining).
I stand corrected on this point. I was working under the belief that Penn State and the PSAC schools were all one system.

As for the others, I did not say that were no HBCU's in Pennsylvania. I said there is "no equivalent in Pennsylvania to the history of racial politics in South Carolina".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The General Assembly could allocate or loan money to S.C. State to eliminate its projected $17 million deficit, said Brenda Hart, interim director of the Executive Budget Office. In its budget request of lawmakers, S.C. State has asked for an added $6 million to repay last year’s state loan.But S.C. State should not expect any more help soon.

Interesting.
Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2015/02/17/3994575_sc-states-deficit-grows-to-17.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

[walliver]

I don't think closing the school was ever an option. This talk of closing is nothing more than political gamesmanship so important cuts could be made.

The real issue facing SC State going forward is its inability to attract qualified african-american students who are currently preferentially attending USC, Clemson, Francis Marion (not an HBCU but 50% AA). A 14% four year graduation rate places SCSU among the worst 4 year colleges in America. The Citadel, despite its hazing, freshman abuse, silly uniforms and buggery, has a 62% graduation rate.

With a 14% graduation rate, SCSU is really a community college disguised as a university with a D-I athletic program.

[WestCoastAggie]

I don't think closing the school was ever an option. This talk of closing is nothing more than political gamesmanship so important cuts could be made.

The real issue facing SC State going forward is its inability to attract qualified african-american students who are currently preferentially attending USC, Clemson, Francis Marion (not an HBCU but 50% AA). A 14% four year graduation rate places SCSU among the worst 4 year colleges in America. The Citadel, despite its hazing, freshman abuse, silly uniforms and buggery, has a 62% graduation rate.

With a 14% graduation rate, SCSU is really a community college disguised as a university with a D-I athletic program.

But aren't those grad rates equal to grad rates for African-Americans at all universities?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

People bandy about that 14% number, but how much was due to grades, and how much was due to family finances/tightening of loan programs?

[WestCoastAggie]

People bandy about that 14% number, but how much was due to grades, and how much was due to family finances/tightening of loan programs?

Grad rates fell across the board, along with enrollment once the PLUS Loan Program tightened its requirements.

[clenz]

But aren't those grad rates equal to grad rates for African-Americans at all universities?
Sadly the MEAC is bad all around

I'll see if I can find the info I had for another post

[clenz]

From my posts on cs.com

verage 4 year graduation rate at 4 year public institutions in the state of South Carolina is 38.8% and 59.1% in 6 years
http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/ ... ublic_four (http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/state/#state=SC&sector=public_four)

South Carolina State University is 17.4% in 4 and 39% in 6 and has dropped 11% since 2002
http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/ ... #id=218733 (http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/institution/#id=218733)

Compared to their peers in the state, here are 6 year graduation rates

Clemson - 76.2
The Citadel - 71.8
South Carolina - 67.6
C of C - 66.1
Winthrop - 54.5
CCU - 43.0
Lander - 42.2
Francis Marion - 40.0
http://chroni.cl/1zAq8PW

Here's the grad rates in the MEAC.
http://chroni.cl/1zAr8n8

Howard and Hampton find a way to get it done in 4 years...hell there, the only two that find a way to get it done in 6 as well


SCSU spends more and gets more aid per student than almost every other MEAC school though.

69.7% of their students have a Pell grant

[walliver]

People bandy about that 14% number, but how much was due to grades, and how much was due to family finances/tightening of loan programs?

A very large percentage of the drop-outs were students who failed to maintain adequate grades their freshmen year and lost their lottery money. Most of those students were marginal candidates with relatively poor academics. SC provides poor direct funding to schools, but does offer help to state students with good grades attending in-state schools.

The great losses at SC State were related to lower admission standards. I do commend the school for maintaining academic standards when it would have been tempting to dumb-down their grading scales to allow students to maintain their lottery money. These students have adequate financial resources to start college, but are unable to maintain them due to their own academic under-performance. Whether this is due to acceptance of marginal students, or an institutional failure to educate them properly is a question I cannot answer.

This problem cannot be blamed on President Obama or Governor Haley.

[WestCoastAggie]

From my posts on cs.com

verage 4 year graduation rate at 4 year public institutions in the state of South Carolina is 38.8% and 59.1% in 6 years
http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/ ... ublic_four (http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/state/#state=SC&sector=public_four)

South Carolina State University is 17.4% in 4 and 39% in 6 and has dropped 11% since 2002
http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/ ... #id=218733 (http://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/institution/#id=218733)

Compared to their peers in the state, here are 6 year graduation rates

Clemson - 76.2
The Citadel - 71.8
South Carolina - 67.6
C of C - 66.1
Winthrop - 54.5
CCU - 43.0
Lander - 42.2
Francis Marion - 40.0
http://chroni.cl/1zAq8PW

Here's the grad rates in the MEAC.
http://chroni.cl/1zAr8n8

Howard and Hampton find a way to get it done in 4 years...hell there, the only two that find a way to get it done in 6 as well


SCSU spends more and gets more aid per student than almost every other MEAC school though.

69.7% of their students have a Pell grant

SCSU's Grad Rate is in line with the average for African-American students across the nation.

[walliver]

...

Here's the grad rates in the MEAC.
http://chroni.cl/1zAr8n8

...

Those are depressing stats all around.

That is a lot of debt being run up with no degree to show for it, although I assume many of the "drop-outs" may have transferred to another school.

[clenz]

Those are depressing stats all around.

That is a lot of debt being run up with no degree to show for it, although I assume many of the "drop-outs" may have transferred to another school.
Does that count against 4 year grade rates?

I'm sure it does in the yearly retention rates (which are also extremely depressing at these schools) but does it on grad rates?

[WestCoastAggie]

House committee votes to shift SC State power to state oversight committee
House lawmakers decided to do away with a plan that would have shut down the school for up to two years.In its place they've passed another proposal to tackle SC State's lingering financial problems.
One that would provide more oversight of the school's leaders.
In their new provisio for SC State, members of the House Ways and Means Committee agreed the university should stay open but the condition is the school should have more oversight from state government.
If it receives final approval the proviso would place the university in the hands of a board made up of the governor as well as the state treasurer, comptroller and other lawmakers.
And that group would have the authority to remove members of SC State's board of trustees as well the school's president Thomas Elzey.




http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?167632-SCSU-Might-Be-Shut-Down-Unitl-2017/page9

[walliver]

House committee votes to shift SC State power to state oversight committee



http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?167632-SCSU-Might-Be-Shut-Down-Unitl-2017/page9

I suspect that this was the plan all along. The threats of shutting the school down just made the final solution more palatable.

[citdog]

I suspect that this was the plan all along. The threats of shutting the school down just made the final solution more palatable.

The 'final solution' huh....

[Twentysix]

I suspect that this was the plan all along. The threats of shutting the school down just made the final solution more palatable.

Classic door in the face!

[walliver]

The latest:

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150227/PC20/150229433/1032/sc-state-president-x2019-s-plan-would-cut-men-x2019-s-basketball

[DFW HOYA]

The latest:

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150227/PC20/150229433/1032/sc-state-president-x2019-s-plan-would-cut-men-x2019-s-basketball

What conference would they realistically go to?

With Elzey on the way out, this isn't going to happen. But football should be vigilant, because it's 20% of the SCSU athletic budget compared to just 7.5% for men's basketball.

[walliver]

What conference would they realistically go to?

With Elzey on the way out, this isn't going to happen. But football should be vigilant, because it's 20% of the SCSU athletic budget compared to just 7.5% for men's basketball.

The conference thing makes little sense. Which conference would want a school with no basketball?

The Big South is always looking for football members, but I wonder what the non-football teams would think.

[clenz]

Football would go, realistically, long before mens basketball.

Men's basketball loses the least of any major sport due to the NCAA $ shares earned in the NCAA tournament by the conference.

Are there any d1 schools without mens basketball?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This to me seems like code for "Let's drop to Division II and join WSSU in the CIAA," because as others have noticed, not having men's hoops would make them near-completely unmarketable.

[clenz]

This to me seems like code for "Let's drop to Division II and join WSSU in the CIAA," because as others have noticed, not having men's hoops would make them near-completely unmarketable.
xnodx

[DFW HOYA]

Are there any d1 schools without mens basketball?

At this point, no, but in the 1980's there was a time when Miami didn't even sponsor basketball and Tulane and San Francisco had shut down their teams.

[FargoBison]

They should be D2 or NAIA, they can't afford DI that is clear. If they don't have basketball what is the point of even being DI?

[Laker]

Are there any d1 schools without mens basketball?

Not now, but Portland State didn't have men's basketball from 1981-96. Some Viking fan could expound on that, but I think there was some scandal involved. They did have women's basketball at that time.

- - - Updated - - -


The 'final solution' huh....

Ouch!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not now, but Portland State didn't have men's basketball from 1981-96. Some Viking fan could expound on that, but I think there was some scandal involved. They did have women's basketball at that time.

Sure it didn't involve the insensitivity of men's hoops?

[walliver]

The SC State athletic program loses $6.8 Million a year. Cutting basketball will barely make a dent in that. The only real savings would come from football. Moving to D2 would be the least painful option. I don't think the PFL is a workable option. I also suspect SC State would eliminate the biology and economic departments before touching the football team or marching band.

Some current board members believe that things aren't that bad, and that some more state money will fix everything. SC State already receives more money per student than most other state schools, so no more state money is coming their way.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150226/PC1603/150229514
“That’s the only problem we have, it’s more money,” Corbitt said. “We can fix it right now, if we had some money. I hope that this board is not being made scapegoats.”

[Laker]

Sure it didn't involve the insensitivity of men's hoops?

Maybe they were wearing horns............

[ejjones]

The SC State athletic program loses $6.8 Million a year. Cutting basketball will barely make a dent in that. The only real savings would come from football. Moving to D2 would be the least painful option. I don't think the PFL is a workable option. I also suspect SC State would eliminate the biology and economic departments before touching the football team or marching band.

Some current board members believe that things aren't that bad, and that some more state money will fix everything. SC State already receives more money per student than most other state schools, so no more state money is coming their way.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150226/PC1603/150229514
“That’s the only problem we have, it’s more money,” Corbitt said. “We can fix it right now, if we had some money. I hope that this board is not being made scapegoats.”

Loses $6M a year? Where do you get this misinformation from? It's these types of statements without facts that are taking way out if context. Sc State athletic budget is about ~$200K in the red. Hence the suggestion to eliminate a few sports to balance the budget.

[danefan]

In the red $200k before or after institutional support?

Being anywhere in the red after getting their share of the school operating budget is horrendous.

But I doubt SCST or any other FCS school is $200k in the red before institutional support.

That is a very big difference.

[ejjones]

In the red $200k before or after institutional support?

Being anywhere in the red after getting their share of the school operating budget is horrendous.

But I doubt SCST or any other FCS school is $200k in the red before institutional support.

That is a very big difference.
Trust me, there's plenty room for improvement. We haven't had a real AD in well over a decade...hens are starting to come home to roost. We finally got a AD who I think will find efficiencies and generate revenue.

This shortfall is after support; but every institution receives support & you'd have to use that figure across the board and state xyz loses $xM every year ($xM= institutional support). I just don't think that's a fair representation of the bottom line.

[walliver]

Loses $6M a year? Where do you get this misinformation from? It's these types of statements without facts that are taking way out if context. Sc State athletic budget is about ~$200K in the red. Hence the suggestion to eliminate a few sports to balance the budget.

The SC State athletic program receives s $6.8 million dollar a year "subsidy" from the school according to the original article. This means the program spends $6.8 million more than it takes in a true revenue every year. The $200K figure you quote is an additional amount of money which has been spent in addition to the budgeted subsidy.

This means the program really spent $7 million more than it took in last year. This is over $2000 per each student.

I am not misinformed.

The use of the term "subsidy" in accounting reports is a way to make the numbers on each side of the ledger match up. It is still a loss.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The SC State athletic program receives s $6.8 million dollar a year "subsidy" from the school according to the original article. This means the program spends $6.8 million more than it takes in a true revenue every year. The $200K figure you quote is an additional amount of money which has been spent in addition to the budgeted subsidy.

This means the program really spent $7 million more than it took in last year. This is over $2000 per each student.

I am not misinformed.

The use of the term "subsidy" in accounting reports is a way to make the numbers on each side of the ledger match up. It is still a loss.

Most public Division I institutions, including a large number of P5 schools, receive such subsidies. For example, Georgia State gets more than $20 million in "institutional support" and student fees, which makes up more than 3/4s of the budget of the entire athletic department. About 95% of them don't generate enough revenue to begin to cover those subsidies.

[danefan]

Budgets are budgets. Going over budget on athletics (after revenue and allocation from the university budget) is a sure way to get fired. There are too many admins at this level that no squat about running a multi-million dollar business.

It's a shame for the student athletes really.

[ejjones]

The SC State athletic program receives s $6.8 million dollar a year "subsidy" from the school according to the original article. This means the program spends $6.8 million more than it takes in a true revenue every year. The $200K figure you quote is an additional amount of money which has been spent in addition to the budgeted subsidy.

This means the program really spent $7 million more than it took in last year. This is over $2000 per each student.

I am not misinformed.

The use of the term "subsidy" in accounting reports is a way to make the numbers on each side of the ledger match up. It is still a loss.
Since we're on the subject I'd thought I would use your analogy to highlight what the other institutions in SC spends in excess of what they bring in I.e subsidy.

Sc Upstate: $5.8M
Coastal Carolina: $15.6M
College of Charleston: $10.4M
Sc State: $7.4M
Citadel: $8.3M
Clemson: $5.1M
USC: $2.2M

Source: collegead .org

[rokamortis]

Since we're on the subject I'd thought I would use your analogy to highlight what the other institutions in SC spends in excess of what they bring in I.e subsidy.

Sc Upstate: $5.8M
Coastal Carolina: $15.6M
College of Charleston: $10.4M
Sc State: $7.4M
Citadel: $8.3M
Clemson: $5.1M
USC: $2.2M

Source: collegead .org

Yeah, "athletics loses money" is a poor argument. The vast majority of programs across the nation are highly subsidized.

SC State is the only one on your list suffering from other serious budget issues though, so the question should be: SHOULD they keep spending that money for DI athletics?

[ejjones]

Yeah, "athletics loses money" is a poor argument. The vast majority of programs across the nation are highly subsidized.

SC State is the only one on your list suffering from other serious budget issues though, so the question should be: SHOULD they keep spending that money for DI athletics?
Concur... I just wanted to show how data can easily be misrepresented.

Great question that someone will have to answer. The state has ignored what those mostly unqualified fools they assigned to the board have been doing for so long that a simple fix isn't achievable. The cuts will be felt.

[AggieManiac704]

Yeah, "athletics loses money" is a poor argument. The vast majority of programs across the nation are highly subsidized.

SC State is the only one on your list suffering from other serious budget issues though, so the question should be: SHOULD they keep spending that money for DI athletics?

THAT is the multi-million dollar question that many HBCU's will be looking at in the coming years. Because if one major program goes back down....The domino effect is sure to begin. It would suck, but the university comes before the program.

[rokamortis]

Concur... I just wanted to show how data can easily be misrepresented.

Great question that someone will have to answer. The state has ignored what those mostly unqualified fools they assigned to the board have been doing for so long that a simple fix isn't achievable. The cuts will be felt.

Oh yeah, I get it. I know you guys are getting attacked from all sides.

I think SC State will come out stronger but it may not be pleasant in the short term.

I don't think athletics is a major reason for the financial issues and hope the state lets you guys stay D-I but I could easily see you going D-2 or D-3.

And although I don't support this for most, you guys could play 2 decent paying FBS games a year and supplement the Athletics budget by $1 million or more.

[walliver]

I don't think the athletics problem is a HBCU general problem or even HBCU specific. SC State has a lot of issues which have brought this to a head.

Using the figures listed in a previous post, USC-Columbia has a loss (subsidy) of $2.2M, but this is spread over 24,000+ undergraduates ($91.00 per student). On the other hand, USC-Upstate spreads its $5.8M over 5200 undergraduates ($1,115.38 per student).

Even Clemson, with its ACC TV money is planning on raising student fees to support athletics.

A lot of schools are going to have to sit down and realize that tuition and students fees can't rise exponentially forever. At some point every school in D-I and D-II (and maybe even D-III) will have to sit down and realistically look at what type of athletic program they can afford. For some schools, athletic losses lead to enrollment gains and is a wise fiscal decision. For many schools it is an ego thing. For others it is a loss they can't afford.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The trouble is that it doesn't have to be this way. The costs inflicted on 95% of the membership are artificial and unnecessary. Football certainly is an expensive sport, but the idea that everyone needs to spend $10 million per team to sponsor it is ludicrous. Football is being squeezed and killed across the country because 5% of the schools are trying to avoid litigation.

[aceinthehole]

I don't think the athletics problem is a HBCU general problem or even HBCU specific. SC State has a lot of issues which have brought this to a head.

Using the figures listed in a previous post, USC-Columbia has a loss (subsidy) of $2.2M, but this is spread over 24,000+ undergraduates ($91.00 per student). On the other hand, USC-Upstate spreads its $5.8M over 5200 undergraduates ($1,115.38 per student).

Even Clemson, with its ACC TV money is planning on raising student fees to support athletics.

A lot of schools are going to have to sit down and realize that tuition and students fees can't rise exponentially forever. At some point every school in D-I and D-II (and maybe even D-III) will have to sit down and realistically look at what type of athletic program they can afford. For some schools, athletic losses lead to enrollment gains and is a wise fiscal decision. For many schools it is an ego thing. For others it is a loss they can't afford.

Exactly! This is jusat another example of gross mismangement by public officials and a rapidly changing marketplace for higher eduaction students and funding. This isn't an athletics issue, nor is it about HBCUs, or even public universities.

Yesterday a 100+ year old, all-female liberal arts college (presumably nearly all-white), with D-III (non-scholly) athletics and a $94 endowment announced it was shutting its doors at the end of the semsester.


James F. Jones Jr., president of Sweet Briar credits the college’s closure to a “declining number of students choosing to attend small, rural, private liberal arts colleges and even fewer young women willing to consider a single-sex education.” He also cited Sweet Briar’s inability to sustain an increasing tuition discount rate.
http://college.usatoday.com/2015/03/03/sweet-briar-college-to-close-because-of-financial-challenges/
http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-when-sweet-briar-college-probably-knew-it-was-in-serious-trouble-2015-3
http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2015/03/03/sweet_briar_college_closing_why_the_wealthy_virgin ia_school_is_closing_its.html

[OhioHen]

...the university comes before the program.

Very true. Providing proper educational opportunities needs to be considered first. Athletic programs are a nice-to-have, not a must-have. When they become must-have, the mission of the institution has to be questioned.

[Libertine]

Exactly! This is jusat another example of gross mismangement by public officials and a rapidly changing marketplace for higher eduaction students and funding. This isn't an athletics issue, nor is it about HBCUs, or even public universities.

Yesterday a 100+ year old, all-female liberal arts college (presumably nearly all-white), with D-III (non-scholly) athletics and a $94 endowment announced it was shutting its doors at the end of the semsester.


Quoted for truth. Public officials have placed such a focus on subsidizing higher education as a political selling point that tuition costs have become artificially high. Yet, they then turn right around, again for the sake of politics, and force the schools to give such massive discounts to in-state students that the schools end up caught in the middle. I live right down the road from Sweet Briar and this closure is a big deal here because there was no hint of instability or hardship. The board simply saw the writing on the wall and knew that their business model was no longer financially viable. It speaks to the type of clientele that they have had that, since the closure was announced early this week, their alumnae have already raised over $250,000 in pledges to a "Save Sweet Briar" fund but school officials have stated that it's going to take about 1,000 times that to guarantee the school's future.

[DFW HOYA]

Quoted for truth. Public officials have placed such a focus on subsidizing higher education as a political selling point that tuition costs have become artificially high. Yet, they then turn right around, again for the sake of politics, and force the schools to give such massive discounts to in-state students that the schools end up caught in the middle. I live right down the road from Sweet Briar and this closure is a big deal here because there was no hint of instability or hardship. The board simply saw the writing on the wall and knew that their business model was no longer financially viable. It speaks to the type of clientele that they have had that, since the closure was announced early this week, their alumnae have already raised over $250,000 in pledges to a "Save Sweet Briar" fund but school officials have stated that it's going to take about 1,000 times that to guarantee the school's future.

What becomes of the $94 million Sweet Briar endowment? Where does it go?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What becomes of the $94 million Sweet Briar endowment? Where does it go?

A great question, and a great answer here:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/03/05/where-will-sweet-briars-85m-endowment-go

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Public officials have placed such a focus on subsidizing higher education as a political selling point that tuition costs have become artificially high.

I agree with this, but to me that wasn't the problem at Sweet Briar. Sweet Briar was stuck on the bad side of three trends: decline of single-sex education, decline of rural education, and decline of college (vs. university) education. Not that long ago it was seen as an asset to be small and focused, and Sweet Briar seemed to at least be surviving with an enrollment of 700 or so students and a decent endowment. Apparently the folks in charge at Sweet Briar concluded that these trends would not change in the long run.

Also worth mentioning that they don't have a million-dollar athletics department to give them publicity, or subsidize enrollment with athletes attending the school for free.

[Libertine]

With that sentence, I was referring more to the more general trend of financial trouble for academic institutions but it is worth noting that Sweet Briar did specifically mention the state discount rates as being a significant factor in their decision.

But, yes, you are correct in that the Sweet Briar model is an outdated model.

[Franks Tanks]

I agree with this, but to me that wasn't the problem at Sweet Briar. Sweet Briar was stuck on the bad side of three trends: decline of single-sex education, decline of rural education, and decline of college (vs. university) education. Not that long ago it was seen as an asset to be small and focused, and Sweet Briar seemed to at least be surviving with an enrollment of 700 or so students and a decent endowment. Apparently the folks in charge at Sweet Briar concluded that these trends would not change in the long run.

Also worth mentioning that they don't have a million-dollar athletics department to give them publicity, or subsidize enrollment with athletes attending the school for free.

Of the 3 trends you mention the single sex aspects is probably the most important. Washington & Lee is located near Sweet Briar, and students fall over themselves to attend, and W&L is obviously small and rural. Generally speaking there are many colleges that may struggle to survive in the coming decades, and most of them will be small and often religiously affiliated schools. Not so sure the rural/urban and college/university distinction is all that important. PA has many such colleges that will struggle moving forward.

The Philly area has several private colleges with mediocre reputations that are probably in for trouble.

-Holy Family
-Cabrini College
-Eastern University
-Arcadia
-Chestnut Hill
-Gwyened-Mercy
-Nueman University

These are not rural schools, and many have "university status", but all have mediocre reputations and not a lot to get excited about. Many are catholic, and were at one time single sex. As I understand many stay in the red by catering to the night school graduate crowd for masters degrees in teaching or MBA's. These smaller schools with so-so reputations will be harder to sustain. Most students and parents, I would think, would rather send their kids to West Chester or Millersville where the tuition is cheaper, the overall experience richer and reputation equal or even better.

[Missingnumber7]

You guys are all getting at the same problem. Its not a sports things or a college issue, although in same cases mismanagement has made it a college issue. I believe it is something that has become a forced education issue. The mantra that has came from the highest places is that we have to have educated people, and that educated people get paid more. When in reality we now have people who have high level degrees that are working low level jobs, struggling to pay their bills because of the debt from the education they were told is a must have. Then you prompt states and other agencies to make it more affordable and they go to the schools and make the issue. When in the end all that needs to be said is there are sometimes better options than going to college. A young adult working the grill at McDonalds with a degree in something really seems like a waste. I find myself pushing my step-son to go to college even though he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. I sit and think about it and its wrong, he should go to school to be, what he wants to be or know what he wants to do before he goes to school. If we have people going to college just because they have been told that is the next step in life then we are wasting all of the grant money and setting them up for failure as they change their major 3 and 4 times as they realize they don't like their particular direction.

[NDB]

I agree with a point.

But universities are not vocational schools.

Maybe that guy working the fryer is pondering some of humanity's deeper issues.





That or he's nursing a hangover from drinking to forget about how much he's f#cked up his life.

[ElCid]

Of the 3 trends you mention the single sex aspects is probably the most important.

You might be right but I am certain it is a bad trend. Obviously I am inclined to favor a single sex education having experienced it. I know the benefits. But while we were in a moderate size city, with plenty of the opposite sex close by, the situation might be a little worse in a rural setting. But for those who think that a single sex education is somehow not as good as a coed one, it is, unfortunately, usually spoken from ignorance. I suffered no ill effects from having gone to an all male school. Most Cid grads I know and work with usually interact better with, and have more respect for women than a lot of guys I know who went to "pick your state U." And likewise, my wife did just fine having attended an all women's college, much like Sweet Briar. My wife was a bit upset when heard that it was closing since she knows what that means for those gals up there. Just like she felt upset when the moron social engineers forced El Cid coed. She knew what was being lost. It a shame folks don't realize the benefits of a single sex education. For the most part, having the opposite sex out of sight and out mind for 5 days a week was nice. But then again so many kids don't go to school for an education these days, they go for a 4 year or, in some cases, 6 year party.

[aceinthehole]

College president: Can small private schools like Sweet Briar survive?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/03/06/college-president-can-small-private-schools-like-sweet-briar-survive/?wpisrc=nl_buzz


Each college has its own challenges and must find its own course to a vibrant future. In the collective history of Mary Baldwin, and especially since 2008, there are five core lessons for institutions facing a nexus of existence-threatening trends:


Face realities squarely, with transparency and with good data on the external context.
Balance market forces with timeless values: value mission while diversifying offerings to reach new pools of students.
Respect shared governance between administration and faculty, while staying nimble to adapt to constant change.
Seek partnerships within higher education and beyond. MBC thrives, for example, through partnerships with the American Shakespeare Center and the Heifetz International Music Institute.
Connect with your regional community, whether rural or urban. MBC works to be a college within the community, not an ivory tower.

[OL FU]

College president: Can small private schools like Sweet Briar survive?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/03/06/college-president-can-small-private-schools-like-sweet-briar-survive/?wpisrc=nl_buzz

I feel like I just paid a butt load of money to an over priced consultant.xembarrassedx

[superman7515]

Maybe New Jersey Institute of Technology will finally have a home.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/sports/ncaabasketball/njit-will-get-an-arena-but-it-still-needs-a-home.html?_r=0


N.J.I.T. announced Thursday that it would break ground on a long-awaited $100 million multipurpose athletic facility this summer. The key component is an arena seating 3,500 fans for the institute’s highest-profile sport, men’s college basketball.
.
.
.

That only problem was that no conferences were lining up to take the university, and its outdated arena was an obvious reason.“I think we become a strong candidate now for all of these leagues,” Engles said. “We can attract some conferences now with a new facility.” Kaplan said the institute was hoping for a September 2017 completion date.

Commissioners for the Northeast Conference, the America East Conference and the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference each congratulated N.J.I.T. on the announcement of the new arena. But beyond that, they deferred comment.

One hope for N.J.I.T. could come from the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference, a league of historically black colleges and universities.

“New Jersey Institute of Technology is a top-flight academic institution,” said the league’s commissioner, Dennis Thomas. “Adding this type of facility sure doesn’t hurt with conference affiliation. From the MEAC’s perspective, it’s an attractive institution.”

Thomas added that his league, which has 13 members, was seeking to take in a 14th to round out its roster. He would not comment on the timetable for that process....




http://www.tallahassee.com/story/sports/ncaab/2015/03/03/njit-new-jersey-institute-of-technology-basketball-conference-affiliation/24332087/


Dennis Thomas, the commissioner of the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference, applauds NJIT's commitment to its new facility and said he understands the importance of conference affiliation for a school like NJIT.

"I commend their President and Lenny for getting the arena done," Thomas said. "That, I thought, was an excellent move. That's one of the pieces to the puzzle for conference consideration."

Thomas says he has had what he characterized as "preliminary discussions" with NJIT officials, and that he also hopes to add one member to round out his conference at 14 schools. "The plan is to add another member," Thomas said, adding that there is no specific deadline for that decision. "Who that will be, we don't know at this point."​