The Value of the Ivy League

[bonarae]

Didn't see this series posted before, I think...

The Harvard Magazine reporter who reports football for that magazine produced an article about Ivy football in two parts:

http://ivyleague.prestosports.com/information/authentic_ivy/2014-15/The_Value_of_Ivy_League_Football_--_Part_1 - Part 1
http://ivyleague.prestosports.com/information/authentic_ivy/2014-15/The_Value_of_Ivy_League_Football_--_Part_2 - Part 2

I, however, personally would like to see the day the Presidents care about the FCS playoffs... xcoffeex

[Pard4Life]

Another Ivy thread...

[Cleets]

xslapfightx





xdeadhorsex

[NY Crusader 2010]

Didn't see this series posted before, I think...


I, however, personally would like to see the day the Presidents care about the FCS playoffs... xcoffeex

That'll be the day everyone on this board cares enough about women's Field Hockey to start a website.

[PantherRob82]

I'd like to care about the Ivy league, but as long as they continue to insulate themselves....

It would be great to see them schedule some more games against the CAA so we have a better idea of where they stack up.

Harvard could be a great team this year, just hard to know what to compare them to.

[Ivytalk]

Theme of articles: Ivy teams are full of manly men who play meaningful (to each other) games and become leaders later in life. Carry on.

[bonarae]

I'd like to care about the Ivy league, but as long as they continue to insulate themselves....

It would be great to see them schedule some more games against the CAA so we have a better idea of where they stack up.

Harvard could be a great team this year, just hard to know what to compare them to.

Hmm, couldn't agree with you more...

[RichH2]

In so far as football, lauding an insular pond a bit meaningless. Compared to what. None can seriously doubt total Ivy experience. A goal of exceiience throughout,except football. No matter how manly they may believe themselves to be, I would rather have facts rather than prose.

[Ivytalk]

In so far as football, lauding an insular pond a bit meaningless. Compared to what. None can seriously doubt total Ivy experience. A goal of exceiience throughout,except football. No matter how manly they may believe themselves to be, I would rather have facts rather than prose.

I would rather have playoffs.

[RichH2]

I would rather have playoffs.
Yup.

[Sader87]

Ivy football in general is too insular....but it's not like they are completely living in a fishbowl like the NESCAC (the D3 league with Williams, Amherst etc who only play one another). Yale played and beat both Army this year and Cal-Poly last year, Dartmouth played UNH this year, UPenn plays Villanova most years etc.

[bkrownd]

I like the Ivies (not because I work for one), and I like the fact that they do it differently. Reminds me of football back in simpler, better days before the soul was sucked out of it by TV.

[bonarae]

I still like the Ivies, but I'm jumping ship now because of their increasing insularity in football.

[World]

I would rather have playoffs.

agree

[OL FU]

I like the Ivies (not because I work for one), and I like the fact that they do it differently. Reminds me of football back in simpler, better days before the soul was sucked out of it by TV.

I actually agree with you in some respects. Honestly, I think the only reason the discussion comes up is the occasional post that says "why are you idiots rating Harvard higher in the poll":)


Of course I exaggerate a littlexembarrassedx

[Sader87]

The more I watch (and yes, hypocritically, I have watched some of them) of these FBS Bowl games and the expansion of the FCS playoffs (I think 8-12 teams should be the max) due primarily to television/ESPN...the more the Ivies decision to forego the playoffs looks bettah and bettah.

[Laker]

The more I watch (and yes, hypocritically, I have watched some of them) of these FBS Bowl games and the expansion of the FCS playoffs (I think 8-12 teams should be the max) due primarily to television/ESPN...the more the Ivies decision to forego the playoffs looks bettah and bettah.

But don't you find it to be hypocritical that they compete in other sports like basketball and hockey but not in FCS football?

[bonarae]

The more I watch (and yes, hypocritically, I have watched some of them) of these FBS Bowl games and the expansion of the FCS playoffs (I think 8-12 teams should be the max) due primarily to television/ESPN...the more the Ivies decision to forego the playoffs looks bettah and bettah.

It has hurt the reputation of Ivy football in general, but it doesn't really matter to recruits... why?

[bonarae]

But don't you find it to be hypocritical that they compete in other sports like basketball and hockey but not in FCS football?

I also wonder why the Ivy Presidents have allowed this practice for decades now. One reason that I chose to jump ship now is that in most institutions, they are free to compete in the postseason...

[Catsfan90]

I'd like to care about the Ivy league, but as long as they continue to insulate themselves....

It would be great to see them schedule some more games against the CAA so we have a better idea of where they stack up.

Harvard could be a great team this year, just hard to know what to compare them to.


I'd love to see harvard or yale vs UNH, but if it goes anything like Darthmouth UNH. I can see why the AD's would like to avoid those matchups.

[Sader87]

But don't you find it to be hypocritical that they compete in other sports like basketball and hockey but not in FCS football?

To an extent, I think there is a degree of snobbery in not wanting to play (and probably lose) to the Sam Houston St's, Coastal Carolina's etc of the world but I also think it has to do with the academic and weather calendar during which the FCS playoffs are held.

[bonarae]

I'd love to see harvard or yale vs UNH, but if it goes anything like Darthmouth UNH. I can see why the AD's would like to avoid those matchups.

I can see the point there. They've tried, but failed to do so.


To an extent, I think there is a degree of snobbery in not wanting to play (and probably lose) to the Sam Houston St's, Coastal Carolina's etc of the world but I also think it has to do with the academic and weather calendar during which the FCS playoffs are held.

I believe it is so, but why are the playoff-playing D-3's (e.g. Chicago, Johns Hopkins, MIT) choose to participate?

[DFW HOYA]

This "Why won't the Ivy League participate?" argument gets tired, when the real question is "Why won't Harvard and Yale participate?" To which the answer is fairly obvious.

H-Y is the last Ivy game of significant attendance. The days of Princeton drawing 37,000 for an Ivy game (as it did in 1989) is gone. As late as 1986, a game at Franklin Field could draw 36,000. This year, 7-9,000 is more likely. Cornell-Dartmouth games once drew in excess of 20,000, now it draws crowds better suited for the Multi-Sport Field. With the P-Y and P-P games now faded glories, the H-Y game stands as the Ivy's signature contest, as valuable to those schools as Army-Navy is to the military.

And while it might seem foolish from the outside that this game would wither in attendance if the playoffs were in place, the idea that Yale has been the last game on the Harvard calendar since the Grover Cleveland administration means something, a lot more than would a loss to Eastern Kentucky before 1,941 or a beatdown at Villanova before 3,113.

As long as H-Y-P is at the top of the standings, things won't change. it's going to take a Penn or a Dartmouth coach to win the Ivy and risk his president's wrath by calling out the league administration over the playoff issue and forcing a discussion the Ivies haven't had in generations.

[Ivytalk]

I still like the Ivies, but I'm jumping ship now because of their increasing insularity in football.

And, with all due respect, you're jumping onto a sinking ship. ETSU won't taste the playoffs for a mighty long time.

[Ivytalk]

This "Why won't the Ivy League participate?" argument gets tired, when the real question is "Why won't Harvard and Yale participate?" To which the answer is fairly obvious.

H-Y is the last Ivy game of significant attendance. The days of Princeton drawing 37,000 for an Ivy game (as it did in 1989) is gone. As late as 1986, a game at Franklin Field could draw 36,000. This year, 7-9,000 is more likely. Cornell-Dartmouth games once drew in excess of 20,000, now it draws crowds better suited for the Multi-Sport Field. With the P-Y and P-P games now faded glories, the H-Y game stands as the Ivy's signature contest, as valuable to those schools as Army-Navy is to the military.

And while it might seem foolish from the outside that this game would wither in attendance if the playoffs were in place, the idea that Yale has been the last game on the Harvard calendar since the Grover Cleveland administration means something, a lot more than would a loss to Eastern Kentucky before 1,941 or a beatdown at Villanova before 3,113.

As long as H-Y-P is at the top of the standings, things won't change. it's going to take a Penn or a Dartmouth coach to win the Ivy and risk his president's wrath by calling out the league administration over the playoff issue and forcing a discussion the Ivies haven't had in generations.

I respectfully disagree. Al Bagnoli's 2012 Penn squad won the Ivies, and we heard nary a peep. And if Dartmouth wins it next year, as seems quite possible, the result will be no different. The fact is that football is losing its relevance to the Ivy schools faster than can be said for other FCS conferences. The issue is not taking time away from exams: it's institutional insouciance, followed remotely by "tradition" and a perception of increased costs.xtwocentsx

[citdog]

And, with all due respect, you're jumping onto a sinking ship. ETSU won't taste the playoffs for a mighty long time.

Don't be so sure of that. ETSU is doing it right this time.

[bulldog10jw]

I just want 11 games. More realistic.

[Ivytalk]

I just want 11 games. More realistic.

True enough, bulldog. You and I are both old enough to remember when the Ivies played only 9 games a year.

[Sader87]

I just want 11 games. More realistic.

I think if the Ivies played that 11th game more often than not against an FBS team, it would give FCS football much more visibility (in the Northeast anyway) than the FCS playoffs.

Think of some of the possibilities: BC-Harvard, Yale-UConn could be resumed, Princeton-Rutgers for the 150th in 2019 etc.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And while it might seem foolish from the outside that this game would wither in attendance if the playoffs were in place, the idea that Yale has been the last game on the Harvard calendar since the Grover Cleveland administration means something, a lot more than would a loss to Eastern Kentucky before 1,941 or a beatdown at Villanova before 3,113.

To believe this you have to believe that Lehigh/Lafayette, Army/Navy, and countless other college football rivalry games are so fragile that any postseason game "cheapens" it if the other teams play another game. Lehigh/Lafayette have been sellouts, including the 150th at Yankee Stadium, and many games where the winner has gone on to the FCS playoffs. Navy beat Army, and six days later played in the Poinsetta Bowl and won, but more importantly, that postseason appearance didn't do anything to take away from their game.

I have always been on record as saying that the FCS playoffs didn't just keep the Rivalry between Lehigh and Lafayette going - it saved it. Still feel that way. The Rivalry games with a title and playoffs on the line are much better than simple bragging rights. Not that bragging rights are unimportant, but they become even better when titles and a chance to compete for a national title are involved.

Harvard wouldn't be beat down by Eastern Kentucky, incidentally, and while a Harvard/UNH game might have been a mismatch this year, watching that game at Harvard Stadium could have been an awesome event. Twice the number of people would have attended such a game than any of the games in the Dungeon.

[bonarae]

I respectfully disagree. Al Bagnoli's 2012 Penn squad won the Ivies, and we heard nary a peep. And if Dartmouth wins it next year, as seems quite possible, the result will be no different. The fact is that football is losing its relevance to the Ivy schools faster than can be said for other FCS conferences. The issue is not taking time away from exams: it's institutional insouciance, followed remotely by "tradition" and a perception of increased costs.xtwocentsx

That said, I am losing my primary respect for Ivy football because of the rest of the nation's indifference against us.


I think if the Ivies played that 11th game more often than not against an FBS team, it would give FCS football much more visibility (in the Northeast anyway) than the FCS playoffs.

Think of some of the possibilities: BC-Harvard, Yale-UConn could be resumed, Princeton-Rutgers for the 150th in 2019 etc.

I agree with this one. Ivy football is shooting its own potential in the foot with their adherence to should've long been gone policies. xsmhx

[NoDak 4 Ever]

The Ivy is very valuable. Just ask them.

[Ivytalk]

The Ivy is very valuable. Just ask them.

You're back? I thought you had a championship game to prepare for. Bugger off.

[caribbeanhen]

That said, I am losing my primary respect for Ivy football because of the rest of the nation's indifference against us.



I agree with this one. Ivy football is shooting its own potential in the foot with their adherence to should've long been gone policies. xsmhx

and now Delaware has ivy Wharton school Harker driving the fans away ...... Smart guys sure can be stupid sometimes

[DFW HOYA]

To believe this you have to believe that Lehigh/Lafayette, Army/Navy, and countless other college football rivalry games are so fragile that any postseason game "cheapens" it if the other teams play another game. Lehigh/Lafayette have been sellouts, including the 150th at Yankee Stadium, and many games where the winner has gone on to the FCS playoffs. Navy beat Army, and six days later played in the Poinsetta Bowl and won, but more importantly, that postseason appearance didn't do anything to take away from their game.

Yes, it works elsewhere, but in the H-Y tradition there is only one game and none follow. When T.A.D. Jones famously told the Yalies "Gentlemen, you are about to play football against Harvard. Never again may you do something so important", he wasn't thinking that Yale would be playing Sacred Heart the following week. That's why I maintain it will take the other Ivy schools to stand up and make this happen, because those two aren't going to change.



Harvard wouldn't be beat down by Eastern Kentucky, incidentally, and while a Harvard/UNH game might have been a mismatch this year, watching that game at Harvard Stadium could have been an awesome event. Twice the number of people would have attended such a game than any of the games in the Dungeon.

That assumes Harvard would bid for a playoff game. (Yes, they can afford it, but Thanksgiving weekend in Boston isn't drawing fans.)

[Go Green]

I still like the Ivies, but I'm jumping ship now because of their increasing insularity in football.

"Increasing?"

We're more insular now as opposed to when?

[Go Green]

As long as H-Y-P is at the top of the standings, things won't change. it's going to take a Penn or a Dartmouth coach to win the Ivy and risk his president's wrath by calling out the league administration over the playoff issue and forcing a discussion the Ivies haven't had in generations.

It's not like Penn or Dartmouth haven't had those exact opportunities...

Don't know if its true, but I've been told that it requires 7 votes to change the Ivy Football Agreement. That gives H-Y veto power.

[Bisonoline]

That said, I am losing my primary respect for Ivy football because of the rest of the nation's indifference against us.



I agree with this one. Ivy football is shooting its own potential in the foot with their adherence to should've long been gone policies. xsmhx


It really is sad on how they have their sand box that only they can play in. An some how they think that makes them relevant.

[bonarae]

We're more insular now as opposed to when?

Insular as in the terms of the opponent quality? Yes. But regionally? No.


It really is sad on how they have their sand box that only they can play in. An some how they think that makes them relevant.

Yes. I think the NCAA has to step up, fully implement some policies regarding playoffs and force the Ivies to go to the playoffs along with the rest of the FCS (except HBCU's)... we'll see how the Presidents will react to this.

[RichH2]

bonarae
By regionally I assume you mean the IL imprint on New England. As to the Northeast,the Ivies bave become the goal for NEC teams to get as status opponents. A few CAA games and the remnants of PL schedules are the top of IL OOC games. Army Yale was a welcome change but not likely we'll see many of those.

[aceinthehole]

Outside of Yale, few, if any, Ivy teams have ventured from the Patriot, Pioneer, NEC, and limited CAA opponents in decades!!!!!!!!!!

Ivy football is insular.

[RichH2]

Apparently ace they like it that way. IL a parochial little pond existing more on tradition than reality. Given the increasing division inside the IL between the haves and have nots, expect there will have to be change relatively soon to address the system bias towards HYP in football .Otherwise,the other 4 will become a de facto patsy replacement for the non schollie PL.

[aceinthehole]

Apparently ace they like it that way. IL a parochial little pond existing more on tradition than reality. Given the increasing division inside the IL between the haves and have nots, expect there will have to be change relatively soon to address the system bias towards HYP in football .Otherwise,the other 4 will become a de facto patsy replacement for the non schollie PL.

Agreed. As others have said, it is their choice. Fact is every school, and each conference has to do what is in their own best interest. No one is doing it for the good of FCS football, the NCAA, or other schools/conferences.

What is good for the Ivy may be good for the NEC, but bad for the Patriot League.
What is good for Harvard may be good for URI, but bad for Lafayette.
What is good for ODU might be bad for Delaware and William & Mary, but it was good for Albany/SBU.
What is good for the MEAC may be bad for the FCS playoffs.
What is good for the Power 5, may be good for FCS teams, but bad for the Group of 5.
What is good for Monmouth, may not be what is good for Central Connecticut.

[DFW HOYA]

Apparently ace they like it that way. IL a parochial little pond existing more on tradition than reality. Given the increasing division inside the IL between the haves and have nots, expect there will have to be change relatively soon to address the system bias towards HYP in football .Otherwise,the other 4 will become a de facto patsy replacement for the non schollie PL.

"Non schollie PL"? That's a conference of one.

[RichH2]

"Non schollie PL"? That's a conference of one.

Now . Correct tho that I should have included Hoyas with the non HYP teams in my post

[aceinthehole]

To an extent, I think there is a degree of snobbery in not wanting to play (and probably lose) to the Sam Houston St's, Coastal Carolina's etc of the world but I also think it has to do with the academic and weather calendar during which the FCS playoffs are held.

I agree a bit, but it doesn't seem to apply to other Ivy sports.

Why is Harvard men's basketball right now playing a non-conference game on the road at Grand Canyon University, the only for-profit college in NCAA Division I?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_University

[bonarae]

Apparently ace they like it that way. IL a parochial little pond existing more on tradition than reality. Given the increasing division inside the IL between the haves and have nots, expect there will have to be change relatively soon to address the system bias towards HYP in football .Otherwise,the other 4 will become a de facto patsy replacement for the non schollie PL.

Unfortunately, true... The system bias should've been gone from existence decades ago...

[KPSUL]

The Ivy League has a great deal of value to the 8 college communities that are members. If they want to be insular, and play primarily among themselves, that up to them. If they aren't interested in testing themselves against the best teams in the FCS, who cares? The inconsistency in this philosophy is clearly evident when you look at other collegiate sports such as hockey and basketball, but again, if they want to sustain this inconsistency who outside of the Ivy League community should really care?

[Go Green]

Outside of Yale, few, if any, Ivy teams have ventured from the Patriot, Pioneer, NEC, and limited CAA opponents in decades!!!!!!!!!!

Ivy football is insular.

Let's call "decades" to go back to 1981.

Dartmouth-Navy
Penn-Army and Navy
Harvard-Army
Cornell-Stanford, Merchant Marine
Brown-Penn State
Princeton-Northwestern, Citadel, Hampton

[Sader87]

It seems like both Army and Navy were very much toying with the idea of joining the Ivy League for football in the early 80s. Is that your recollection (or what you've gleaned ovah the years) Go Green???

[Ivytalk]

I agree a bit, but it doesn't seem to apply to other Ivy sports.

Why is Harvard men's basketball right now playing a non-conference game on the road at Grand Canyon University, the only for-profit college in NCAA Division I?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_University

Because they had a layover in Phoenix after losing to ASU a couple nights before.xcoolx

[Go Green]

It seems like both Army and Navy were very much toying with the idea of joining the Ivy League for football in the early 80s. Is that your recollection (or what you've gleaned ovah the years) Go Green???

My understanding is that they came very close to joining the Ivy at the time of the I-AA split.

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/01/10/sports/ivy-league-considers-adding-2-schools.html

Obviously, it didn't happen.

But you can't help but wonder if you told Army in 1982 that they'd really suck for the next 30+ years and that Navy would run a 20-game winning streak against them.... whether Army would have pulled the trigger back then.

Oh well.

[DFW HOYA]

Wrote the Times in '82: "Army, Navy and Northwestern are still members of Division I-A in football and they each meet the new requirements for major football status. If any two of these three were to join the Ivy League, they probably would help get the Ivy League back into I-A."

Now, not so much.

[Sader87]

From that NYT article: "An Ivy official who did not wish to be identified also raised the possibility that three other colleges - Holy Cross, Colgate and William and Mary -might be considered in Ivy expansion."

Not only could we have been in the Big East....we coulda been in the Ivy League xdrunkyx

Happy New Year all....!!!

[Ivytalk]

From that NYT article: "An Ivy official who did not wish to be identified also raised the possibility that three other colleges - Holy Cross, Colgate and William and Mary -might be considered in Ivy expansion."

Not only could we have been in the Big East....we coulda been in the Ivy League xdrunkyx



Happy New Year all....!!!

Happy New Yeah, Sadah!

[DFW HOYA]

Not only could we have been in the Big East....we coulda been in the Ivy League xdrunkyx


You could have also been in...the MAAC.

In the halcyon days of MAAC football (back when a few games were on ESPN2, no less), there was chatter about adding Holy Cross and Fordham as all-sports members to help create a 12 team football conference.

As for the Ivy, Fr. Brooks would have surely avoided the "entertainment business" of Ivy football. Now, if the NESCAC had called....

[Sader87]

We actually were in the MAAC for hoop and other sports for much of the 1980s. It was a decent hoop league then: Fordham, LaSalle and Army were also in it for hoop at the time.

[Go Green]

Wrote the Times in '82: "Army, Navy and Northwestern are still members of Division I-A in football and they each meet the new requirements for major football status. If any two of these three were to join the Ivy League, they probably would help get the Ivy League back into I-A."

Now, not so much.

Agreed.

As long as Ivy fans are staying home for key games at the slightest hint of bad weather, not even the addition of Army and Navy would get us over the FBS attendance minimums.

[Pard4Life]

If let's say Dartmouth wins the Ivy and says, unilaterally, we will accept a playoff bid, can they do that, theoretically speaking?

[DFW HOYA]

If let's say Dartmouth wins the Ivy and says, unilaterally, we will accept a playoff bid, can they do that, theoretically speaking?

In that case, the autobid is to the conference and the IL rejects it as being against the Ivy Group Agreement. If Dartmouth received an at-large, another story.

[KPSUL]

If let's say Dartmouth wins the Ivy and says, unilaterally, we will accept a playoff bid, can they do that, theoretically speaking?

Yes they can take the playoff spot, but they lose their right to wear Sperry boat shoes or penny loafers without socks to the game.

[RichH2]

In that case, the autobid is to the conference and the IL rejects it as being against the Ivy Group Agreement. If Dartmouth received an at-large, another story.
Right now IL does not have an autobid,so any offer would be an at large.

[Ivytalk]

Yes they can take the playoff spot, but they lose their right to wear Sperry boat shoes or penny loafers without socks to the game.

That's not part of the Dartmouth wardrobe, you dolt. They wear moldy Chuck Taylors without socks. Get with the program.

[KPSUL]

That's not part of the Dartmouth wardrobe, you dolt. They wear moldy Chuck Taylors without socks. Get with the program.

Sorry, I'm kinda dated on fashion trends, Chuck Taylors were state-of-the-art basketball shoes in my day.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's not part of the Dartmouth wardrobe, you dolt. They wear moldy Chuck Taylors without socks. Get with the program.

Tevas tevas tevas

[Ivytalk]

Sorry, I'm kinda dated on fashion trends, Chuck Taylors were state-of-the-art basketball shoes in my day.

Dartmouth guys pride themselves on wearing the same Chucks their fathers wore!:D

[kalm]

The Harvard of the Palouse enjoys participating in the playoffs and we prefer Whites Custom Work Boots, Birkenstocks, and Simms waders

[Go Green]

If Dartmouth received an at-large, another story.

I think the 1970 Lambert Trophy team got an invite to the Bluebonnet Bowl and turned it down....

[crimsonfan]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why any Ivy League team would feel its pulse quicken at the prospect of a post-season clash with Coastal Carolina, etc etc. The further prospect of mid-exam face-offs against Southeastern Illinois Tech or whoever, culminating (if you are .... eh.. lucky) in a summit battle with North Dakota State or some such in Fargo, ND or Frisco TX in January is not particularly appealing.

Lets face it: the FCS is a conglomeration of second-raters and losers, who the Power 5 have shunted aside and cut off from the bug bucks. Who wants to criss-cross the country, playing before high school-sized crowds, to be crowned the best of the worst?

A minority view, perhaps, but I'm entitled to it. This boring FCS playoff stuff bears no comparison to March Madness or the ice hockey national championships, where you're really playing for something that COUNTS.

[kalm]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why any Ivy League team would feel its pulse quicken at the prospect of a post-season clash with Coastal Carolina, etc etc. The further prospect of mid-exam face-offs against Southeastern Illinois Tech or whoever, culminating (if you are .... eh.. lucky) in a summit battle with North Dakota State or some such in Fargo, ND or Frisco TX in January is not particularly appealing.

Lets face it: the FCS is a conglomeration of second-raters and losers, who the Power 5 have shunted aside and cut off from the bug bucks. Who wants to criss-cross the country, playing before high school-sized crowds, to be crowned the best of the worst?

A minority view, perhaps, but I'm entitled to it. This boring FCS playoff stuff bears no comparison to March Madness or the ice hockey national championships, where you're really playing for something that COUNTS.

The desire to compete.

[Gordon Shumway]

To an extent, I think there is a degree of snobbery in not wanting to play (and probably lose) to the Sam Houston St's, Coastal Carolina's etc of the world but I also think it has to do with the academic and weather calendar during which the FCS playoffs are held.




For the life of me, I cannot understand why any Ivy League team would feel its pulse quicken at the prospect of a post-season clash with Coastal Carolina, etc etc. The further prospect of mid-exam face-offs against Southeastern Illinois Tech or whoever, culminating (if you are .... eh.. lucky) in a summit battle with North Dakota State or some such in Fargo, ND or Frisco TX in January is not particularly appealing.

Lets face it: the FCS is a conglomeration of second-raters and losers, who the Power 5 have shunted aside and cut off from the bug bucks. Who wants to criss-cross the country, playing before high school-sized crowds, to be crowned the best of the worst?

A minority view, perhaps, but I'm entitled to it. This boring FCS playoff stuff bears no comparison to March Madness or the ice hockey national championships, where you're really playing for something that COUNTS.

The prosecution rests your honor.....20425

[citdog]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why any Ivy League team would feel its pulse quicken at the prospect of a post-season clash with Coastal Carolina, etc etc. The further prospect of mid-exam face-offs against Southeastern Illinois Tech or whoever, culminating (if you are .... eh.. lucky) in a summit battle with North Dakota State or some such in Fargo, ND or Frisco TX in January is not particularly appealing.

Lets face it: the FCS is a conglomeration of second-raters and losers, who the Power 5 have shunted aside and cut off from the bug bucks. Who wants to criss-cross the country, playing before high school-sized crowds, to be crowned the best of the worst?

A minority view, perhaps, but I'm entitled to it. This boring FCS playoff stuff bears no comparison to March Madness or the ice hockey national championships, where you're really playing for something that COUNTS.

The only second rate loser is you. Elitist yankee scum.

[Bisonator]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why any Ivy League team would feel its pulse quicken at the prospect of a post-season clash with Coastal Carolina, etc etc. The further prospect of mid-exam face-offs against Southeastern Illinois Tech or whoever, culminating (if you are .... eh.. lucky) in a summit battle with North Dakota State or some such in Fargo, ND or Frisco TX in January is not particularly appealing.

Lets face it: the FCS is a conglomeration of second-raters and losers, who the Power 5 have shunted aside and cut off from the bug bucks. Who wants to criss-cross the country, playing before high school-sized crowds, to be crowned the best of the worst?

A minority view, perhaps, but I'm entitled to it. This boring FCS playoff stuff bears no comparison to March Madness or the ice hockey national championships, where you're really playing for something that COUNTS.

Haha even the FCS championship draws more viewers then the hockies! xlolx

[KPSUL]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why any Ivy League team would feel its pulse quicken at the prospect of a post-season clash with Coastal Carolina, etc etc. The further prospect of mid-exam face-offs against Southeastern Illinois Tech or whoever, culminating (if you are .... eh.. lucky) in a summit battle with North Dakota State or some such in Fargo, ND or Frisco TX in January is not particularly appealing.

Lets face it: the FCS is a conglomeration of second-raters and losers, who the Power 5 have shunted aside and cut off from the bug bucks. Who wants to criss-cross the country, playing before high school-sized crowds, to be crowned the best of the worst?

A minority view, perhaps, but I'm entitled to it. This boring FCS playoff stuff bears no comparison to March Madness or the ice hockey national championships, where you're really playing for something that COUNTS.

Interesting point of view, although it has no basis in reality. Probably should start very simple in explaining this to you since you don't seem to much about FCS football. The "face-off" is how a hockey game starts, football starts with what is called a "kick-off".

Thanks very much for illustrating what Ivy football programs have been doing for decades, when they are no longer among the best at their current level of play they quit trying and claim some arcane, elitist hubris concerning academic standards as the justification. Strangely, this has not occurred with Division 1 Hockey Programs which are more intense than FCS football, the season runs longer, the players travel more, and Ivies are full participants including NCAA playoffs. This contradiction defies any reasonable explanation so don't make a fool out of yourself and try. Instead, stay the big fish in your grandiose pond and stop insulting FCS playoff teams that could score on your team at will IF you had the gumption to play them.

[crimsonfan]

Ah, here we go with the tired "elitism" thing. The fact is, the FCS football "championship" is nothing but a playoff among second raters (including the Ivies - were they to participate.)

This is nothing like NCAA basketball - or the national hockey championships, or other NCAA sports, where, if you win, you are really a CHAMPION!

If it makes you feel fulfilled to be the best of the second raters, well then more power to you.

[KPSUL]

Ah, here we go with the tired "elitism" thing. The fact is, the FCS football "championship" is nothing but a playoff among second raters (including the Ivies - were they to participate.)

This is nothing like NCAA basketball - or the national hockey championships, or other NCAA sports, where, if you win, you are really a CHAMPION!

If it makes you feel fulfilled to be the best of the second raters, well then more power to you.

The only tired elitist thing on this thread is you. Since we are all so second rate, do yourself a favor and never log on again.

[Go...gate]

The only second rate loser is you. Elitist yankee scum.

Nicely said, citdog.

[Go...gate]

Yes they can take the playoff spot, but they lose their right to wear Sperry Top-Siders or penny loafers without socks to the game.

Fixed it for you.

Now, now. When not wearing wing tips, this Colgate grad favors Top-Siders or penny loafers. Very comfortable.

[Go...gate]

Sorry, I'm kinda dated on fashion trends, Chuck Taylors were state-of-the-art basketball shoes in my day.

Yep. Jack Purcell and Stan Smith tennis shoes, too.

[Go...gate]

I think the 1970 Lambert Trophy team got an invite to the Bluebonnet Bowl and turned it down....

Yes. As I recall, the Liberty Bowl also showed significant interest.

What a ballclub that was.

[Go...gate]

Let's call "decades" to go back to 1981.

Dartmouth - Navy, William & Mary
Penn - Army and Navy
Harvard - Army
Cornell - Stanford, Merchant Marine, Cincinnati
Brown - Penn State
Yale - Army, Hawaii
Princeton - Maine, Delaware, Army, Navy, William & Mary, Northwestern, Citadel, Hampton

I added a few others that were scheduled, including some CAA clubs....

[KPSUL]

Fixed it for you.

Now, now. When not wearing wing tips, this Colgate grad favors Top-Siders or penny loafers. Very comfortable.

Thanks for fixin it up all up good and proper. But, not a bad work for a guy with a state university education wouldn't you say?

[Go...gate]

Thanks for fixin it up all up good and proper. But, not a bad work for a guy with a state university education wouldn't you say?

Good work, indeed! :)

[Go Green]

I added a few others that were scheduled, including some CAA clubs....

I was responding to a claim that only Yale has gone outside the PL/PFL/NEC/CAA slate for OOC.

But you are right--I overlooked a few FBS games. Completely forgot about Cornell-Cincy, and wasn't aware that Princeton played the academies.

[Sitting Bull]

During the 80s, W&M played:
Dartmouth (4 game series)
Yale (2 game series)
Brown (2 game series)
Princeton (2 game series)
Harvard: 6 games since the early 80s. The last was in 1993 when they agreed to come to Williamsburg for our 300th birthday celebration.
Penn: we had a two game series in the 80s and just completed a second two game series in 2013.

i would love to see W&M maintain a few of these on occasion, particularly Harvard, Penn and Princeton.

Harvard is our most frequently played, the series at 4-4-2.

Ivy games draw well in Williamsburg.

[Sitting Bull]

Ah, here we go with the tired "elitism" thing. The fact is, the FCS football "championship" is nothing but a playoff among second raters (including the Ivies - were they to participate.)

This is nothing like NCAA basketball - or the national hockey championships, or other NCAA sports, where, if you win, you are really a CHAMPION!

If it makes you feel fulfilled to be the best of the second raters, well then more power to you.

You can always tell a Harvard man. But not much.

[ngineer]

You can always tell a Harvard man. But not much.

...back to the Jefferson-Adams rivalry?? (;-)

[Ivytalk]

The desire to compete.
xhurrayx

That's a wrap.xthumbsupx

[Ivytalk]

Ah, here we go with the tired "elitism" thing. The fact is, the FCS football "championship" is nothing but a playoff among second raters (including the Ivies - were they to participate.)

This is nothing like NCAA basketball - or the national hockey championships, or other NCAA sports, where, if you win, you are really a CHAMPION!

If it makes you feel fulfilled to be the best of the second raters, well then more power to you.

Let me ask you this: why did you start posting on this board in the first place if you don't support the concept of a playoff to determine a champion? Most Ivy fans who post here, including me, devoutly wish that the Ivy presidents would allow playoff participation in FB. I don't view the FCS schools as "losers": they include some of the best academic institutions and all-around athletic programs in the country. Would you feel the same way if Harvard BB beat Coastal Carolina (or Lehigh, or Northern Iowa, or...) in the first round of the NCAA hoops playoffs? I think not. Not all schools have the wherewithal to support football at the FBS level, but they want to participate in a system that has postseason competition beyond endless Belk Bowls. I welcome your response.

[crimsonfan]

I disagree with you ... assuming that its legal to do so on this site without getting my head chopped off. The Ivy League's two founding principles are:

1. No post-season play for football, and

2. No athletic scholarships

I happen to agree with these principles, even if I get sneered at for doing so by so many posters here - as an "elitist" or worse.

As the "Power 5" move in the direction of salaries for players, and collective bargaining on the (sensible) ground that even athletic scholarship players are employees - i.e., their "scholarships" are in exchange for services performed - many of the lesser Div. 1 teams, and FCS teams who grant "athletic scholarships" will find they can't keep up. The cost of their "athletic scholarships" will rise substantially. It is at least conceivable that many of such schools will find they have too de-emphasize the sport - or give it up entirely, if it is not feasible to pile more costs on the student body in the form of "fees" , obtain huge new subsidies from the legislature in the case of publics, or dip deeply into their endowment in the case of privates. Remember, schools outside the Power 5 will not have the TV networks standing by to pick up the tab.

In the end, a range of schools squeezed by these pending cost increases may decide - reluctantly, that the Ivies got it right, decades ago, when they moved to limit the "overemphasis" on football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I disagree with you ... assuming that its legal to do so on this site without getting my head chopped off. The Ivy League's two founding principles are:

1. No post-season play for football, and

2. No athletic scholarships *

FIFY

Also, just to get you up to speed:

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/705-plain-and-simple-the-ivy-playoff-ban-is-discrimination

[Ivytalk]

I disagree with you ... assuming that its legal to do so on this site without getting my head chopped off. The Ivy League's two founding principles are:

1. No post-season play for football, and


2. No athletic scholarships

I happen to agree with these principles, even if I get sneered at for doing so by so many posters here - as an "elitist" or worse.

As the "Power 5" move in the direction of salaries for players, and collective bargaining on the (sensible) ground that even athletic scholarship players are employees - i.e., their "scholarships" are in exchange for services performed - many of the lesser Div. 1 teams, and FCS teams who grant "athletic scholarships" will find they can't keep up. The cost of their "athletic scholarships" will rise substantially. It is at least conceivable that
many of such schools will find they have too de-emphasize the sport - or give it up entirely, if it is not feasible to pile more costs on the student body in the form of "fees" , obtain huge new subsidies from the legislature in the case of publics, or dip deeply into their endowment in the case of privates. Remember, schools outside the Power 5 will not have the TV networks standing by to pick up the tab.

In the end, a range of schools squeezed by these pending cost increases may decide - reluctantly, that the Ivies got it right, decades ago, when they moved to limit the "overemphasis" on football.

I understand your point of view, and I won't "sneer" at you for expressing it. I just don't understand, for the life of me, why you decided to join this board. That was my first question to you on my last post. It's a pro-playoff board. And you don't do yourself any favors by calling other participants "losers."

[crimsonfan]

Oh yes, I'd seen that Crimson article, and am aware of similar discussion/agitation from time to time at various Ivy schools. The bottom line is that the number of people hot to enter the FCS "championship" playoffs is pretty small and the overall sentiment is pretty tepid as far as I can tell.

At the same time, the Ivy schools (or at least some of them) are concerned about the push among some traditional OOC opponents to adopt "athletic scholarships" on a vast scale. I think it was only reluctantly that Harvard and Yale re-signed for a series vs. Holy Cross in football. Of course it was widely known that Holy Cross was not a supporter of this move by the Patriot League, to use paid players, but felt squeezed and had to go along, because otherwise Boston College (FMS) couldn't have agreed to play them - which both schools wanted to do.

Now if some of the FCS schools (per the article) that say they'd love to play Harvard, and would welcome their participation (or that of other Ivies) in the "championship" playoffs, would promise to give up the use of paid players in those games .... well, that would be meeting the Ivies half-way, wouldn't it?

[crimsonfan]

To Ivy Talk:

<<I just don't understand, for the life of me, why you decided to join this board. That was my first question to you on my last post. It's a pro-playoff board. And you don't do yourself any favors by calling other participants "losers.">>

I hesitate to take issue with anybody having 14,619 posts here about what views are appropriate to express. Its a "pro-playoff board" you say .... well it seems to me that a number of topics can be discussed, and - one hopes - views expressed about even such sacred topic as the merits of the FCS football playoffs.

And by the by, I didn't call "other participants 'losers' " ...... rather, I said that from my perspective the whole FCS "division" - including the Ivies - consists of losers in the sense that they were cast aside by the big boys, who didn't want to share any of the TV gold with "minor" programs not carrying their weight.

I see that the BiG (formerly the Big 10) is considering a rule barring the scheduling of games by member schools with FCS teams.

[Ivytalk]

To Ivy Talk:

<<I just don't understand, for the life of me, why you decided to join this board. That was my first question to you on my last post. It's a pro-playoff board. And you don't do yourself any favors by calling other participants "losers.">>

I hesitate to take issue with anybody having 14,619 posts here about what views are appropriate to express. Its a "pro-playoff board" you say .... well it seems to me that a number of topics can be discussed, and - one hopes - views expressed about even such sacred topic as the merits of the FCS football playoffs.

And by the by, I didn't call "other participants 'losers' " ...... rather, I said that from my perspective the whole
FCS "division" - including the Ivies - consists of losers in the sense that they were cast aside by the big boys, who didn't want to share any of the TV gold with "minor" programs not carrying their weight.

I see that the BiG (formerly the Big 10) is considering a rule barring the scheduling of games by member schools with FCS teams.

Listen, crimsonfan, you can take issue with any of my posts that you like, and express any views that you like. I'm no censor. I've made a number of friends on this board over the years, gone to games with them, and tailgated with them. If you stick with it, you'll find that most of the active posters are "first raters." And if you choose to denigrate the FCS playoffs, that's entirely up to you.

[Gordon Shumway]

Oh yes, I'd seen that Crimson article, and am aware of similar discussion/agitation from time to time at various Ivy schools. The bottom line is that the number of people hot to enter the FCS "championship" playoffs is pretty small and the overall sentiment is pretty tepid as far as I can tell.

At the same time, the Ivy schools (or at least some of them) are concerned about the push among some traditional OOC opponents to adopt "athletic scholarships" on a vast scale. I think it was only reluctantly that Harvard and Yale re-signed for a series vs. Holy Cross in football. Of course it was widely known that Holy Cross was not a supporter of this move by the Patriot League, to use paid players, but felt squeezed and had to go along, because otherwise Boston College (FMS) couldn't have agreed to play them - which both schools wanted to do.

Now if some of the FCS schools (per the article) that say they'd love to play Harvard, and would welcome their participation (or that of other Ivies) in the "championship" playoffs, would promise to give up the use of paid players in those games .... well, that would be meeting the Ivies half-way, wouldn't it?

If you are going to take that nonsensical approach, you should at least have the decency to list the players on the Harvard football team that are paying to attend school. If you can find one or two, it may help your argument. 20429

[DFW HOYA]

Of course it was widely known that Holy Cross was not a supporter of this move by the Patriot League, to use paid players, but felt squeezed and had to go along, because otherwise Boston College (FMS) couldn't have agreed to play them - which both schools wanted to do.

HC didn't vote for scholarships merely for a one-off with BC, which did not happen until two years after the vote.

In reality, the yes votes from Colgate, Lehigh, and Fordham led the other PL presidents to consider the transfer cost of moving need aid to merit aid doable (less so for Bucknell, but still doable). A unanimous voice of approval was expected and what was not expected was Georgetown publicly stating its opposition and setting the stage for people questioning its future commitments. The other presidents were probably taken aback by this. I think there are still people in the PL office who were not happy with the way Georgetown got in front of the story.

Holy Cross' problem is that they are not at the scholarship levels of the other schools by some small but significant number.

[crimsonfan]

My understanding that HC has committed to move to the max scholarship level before the BC game as a condition of that game going forward.

[Sader87]

My understanding that HC has committed to move to the max scholarship level before the BC game as a condition of that game going forward.

It may have been in the works but I don't think the future games with BC were the only reason HC joined the "aye votes" for football scholarships in the PL.

Dwindling attendance/support/enthusiasm for the program was more of the drivah in the decision imo. HC was starting to lose to NEC teams, losing more than not to the Ivies regularly etc etc....the competitiveness and general interest in HC football was probably close to an all-time low before returning to scholarships.

Being able to play the BC's, Syracuse's et al of the world was a nice ancillary reason for becoming a full (or nearly so) scholarship again but it wasn't the only reason.

[crimsonfan]

If the cost the max athletic scholarships rises to intolerable levels in the next few years, I am of the opinion that Holy Cross might be welcomed as at least a football member of the Ivy League. It has been increasingly difficult to find other schools giving need-based aid only to schedule. With Georgetown and Holy Cross, possibly, conference schools would only need to schedule 1 OOC game a year. Holy Cross would save $millions, and still be playing half the teams it is currently playing.

[kalm]

I disagree with you ... assuming that its legal to do so on this site without getting my head chopped off. The Ivy League's two founding principles are:

1. No post-season play for football, and

2. No athletic scholarships

I happen to agree with these principles, even if I get sneered at for doing so by so many posters here - as an "elitist" or worse.

As the "Power 5" move in the direction of salaries for players, and collective bargaining on the (sensible) ground that even athletic scholarship players are employees - i.e., their "scholarships" are in exchange for services performed - many of the lesser Div. 1 teams, and FCS teams who grant "athletic scholarships" will find they can't keep up. The cost of their "athletic scholarships" will rise substantially. It is at least conceivable that many of such schools will find they have too de-emphasize the sport - or give it up entirely, if it is not feasible to pile more costs on the student body in the form of "fees" , obtain huge new subsidies from the legislature in the case of publics, or dip deeply into their endowment in the case of privates. Remember, schools outside the Power 5 will not have the TV networks standing by to pick up the tab.

In the end, a range of schools squeezed by these pending cost increases may decide - reluctantly, that the Ivies got it right, decades ago, when they moved to limit the "overemphasis" on football.

* to.

(Directional schools FTW!)

[kalm]

To Ivy Talk:

<<I just don't understand, for the life of me, why you decided to join this board. That was my first question to you on my last post. It's a pro-playoff board. And you don't do yourself any favors by calling other participants "losers.">>

I hesitate to take issue with anybody having 14,619 posts here about what views are appropriate to express. Its a "pro-playoff board" you say .... well it seems to me that a number of topics can be discussed, and - one hopes - views expressed about even such sacred topic as the merits of the FCS football playoffs.

And by the by, I didn't call "other participants 'losers' " ...... rather, I said that from my perspective the whole FCS "division" - including the Ivies - consists of losers in the sense that they were cast aside by the big boys, who didn't want to share any of the TV gold with "minor" programs not carrying their weight.

I see that the BiG (formerly the Big 10) is considering a rule barring the scheduling of games by member schools with FCS teams.

Actually, more than a few members of the subdivision have fairly recently moved up and were never aspiring to join the power 5.

Carry on.

[DFW HOYA]

If the cost the max athletic scholarships rises to intolerable levels in the next few years, I am of the opinion that Holy Cross might be welcomed as at least a football member of the Ivy League. It has been increasingly difficult to find other schools giving need-based aid only to schedule. With Georgetown and Holy Cross, possibly, conference schools would only need to schedule 1 OOC game a year. Holy Cross would save $millions, and still be playing half the teams it is currently playing.

The problem is that Holy Cross does not have the academic or endowment chops that would sway the Ivy presidents; for all its US News rankings and admissions overlap, even Georgetown is looked down upon by the Ancient Eight as unworthy of the crown.

A post on the Ivy board somewhat jokingly proposed adding Army, Navy, Georgetown and Wiiliam & Mary and simply playing a 10 game all-league schedule. Unlikely thought it would be, this seems to be the subset of schools that are even in the conversation. By committing to scholarships, HC has taken its name out of any semi-serious Ivy consideration.

[KPSUL]

[QUOTE=crimsonfan;2205710]I disagree with you ... assuming that its legal to do so on this site without getting my head chopped off. The Ivy League's two founding principles are:

1. No post-season play for football, and

2. No athletic scholarships

I happen to agree with these principles, even if I get sneered at for doing so by so many posters here - as an "elitist" or worse.

You weren't sneered at for supporting Ivy league principles, your were jumped on for being insultingly dismissive of all non-Ivy FCS schools and for name calling like this: " Lets face it: the FCS is a conglomeration of second-raters and losers"

[Sader87]

We're hoping for the B1G now actually....xrotatehx

[crimsonfan]

The Ivies THEMSELVES are included in this "conglomeration of second-raters and losers" ..... all of whom were cast out into no-man's land by the Power 5 etc who want all the money for themselves, and don't want to share it with the little guys. The cost of awarding scholarships is going to rise greatly in the next few years, and the little guys (i.e., the second-raters and losers like the Ivies and others) aren't going to get any of the TV $millions to pay for them. There is a gloomy future ahead, IMHO, for those in the FCS hoping to ape the game being played by the Power 5 etc.

[RichH2]

[QUOTE=crimsonfan;2205710]I disagree with you ... assuming that its legal to do so on this site without getting my head chopped off. The Ivy League's two founding principles are:

1. No post-season play for football, and

2. No athletic scholarships

I happen to agree with these principles, even if I get sneered at for doing so by so many posters here - as an "elitist" or worse.

You weren't sneered at for supporting Ivy league principles, your were jumped on for being insultingly dismissive of all non-Ivy FCS schools and for name calling like this: " Lets face it: the FCS is a conglomeration of second-raters and losers"



+1

[kalm]

The Ivies THEMSELVES are included in this "conglomeration of second-raters and losers" ..... all of whom were cast out into no-man's land by the Power 5 etc who want all the money for themselves, and don't want to share it with the little guys. The cost of awarding scholarships is going to rise greatly in the next few years, and the little guys (i.e., the second-raters and losers like the Ivies and others) aren't going to get any of the TV $millions to pay for them. There is a gloomy future ahead, IMHO, for those in the FCS hoping to ape the game being played by the Power 5 etc.

EWU has seen it's local and national exposure increase exponentially thanks to FCS football. Enrollment is increasing and so is the caliber of athletes. We can now watch BSC games regionally on the ROOT network and I can watch FCS playoff games on ESPN 3.

I know we're not alone in this.

You're clearly limited in you're understanding of FCS football.

[crimsonfan]

Good luck to Ewu.

[kalm]

Good luck to Ewu.

And SDSU, SHSU, JSU, Poly, SUU, Montana, Montana State, UNH, Missouri State, and all the rest who have experienced similar success and/or are planning facility upgrades.

[Catsfan90]

And SDSU, SHSU, JSU, Poly, SUU, Montana, Montana State, UNH, Missouri State, and all the rest who have experienced similar success and/or are planning facility upgrades.
I 100℅ agree on your statement. I'd gone through my life, and had never heard of EWU. Through FCS football, I was able to watch it on ESPN a few times and I've now done research on that area. Without the playoffs, I never would have had a reason to be interested or even hear about EWU. Its a great tool for exposure, and to spread awareness. It gives national exposure to the communities they are in.

[caribbeanhen]

I 100℅ agree on your statement. I'd gone through my life, and had never heard of EWU. Through FCS football, I was able to watch it on ESPN a few times and I've now done research on that area. Without the playoffs, I never would have had a reason to be interested or even hear about EWU. Its a great tool for exposure, and to spread awareness. It gives national exposure to the communities they are in.

and sometimes this is not a good thing :D

[bonarae]

Yikes, I haven't logged on in more than 24 hours... and now this!


Let me ask you this: why did you start posting on this board in the first place if you don't support the concept of a playoff to determine a champion? Most Ivy fans who post here, including me, devoutly wish that the Ivy presidents would allow playoff participation in FB. I don't view the FCS schools as "losers": they include some of the best academic institutions and all-around athletic programs in the country. Would you feel the same way if Harvard BB beat Coastal Carolina (or Lehigh, or Northern Iowa, or...) in the first round of the NCAA hoops playoffs? I think not. Not all schools have the wherewithal to support football at the FBS level, but they want to participate in a system that has postseason competition beyond endless Belk Bowls. I welcome your response.

I agree with your sentiments, Ivytalk. I am one of the playoff-desiring Ivy FB fans and treat the playoff-participating FCS teams equally. But I also support other teams playing FCS and lower level football (bandwagon or not) just for the playoffs' sake (that's why I sometimes mention former big power Chicago here though they are content in D-III.)


I disagree with you ... assuming that its legal to do so on this site without getting my head chopped off. The Ivy League's two founding principles are:

1. No post-season play for football, and

2. No athletic scholarships

I happen to agree with these principles, even if I get sneered at for doing so by so many posters here - as an "elitist" or worse.

As the "Power 5" move in the direction of salaries for players, and collective bargaining on the (sensible) ground that even athletic scholarship players are employees - i.e., their "scholarships" are in exchange for services performed - many of the lesser Div. 1 teams, and FCS teams who grant "athletic scholarships" will find they can't keep up. The cost of their "athletic scholarships" will rise substantially. It is at least conceivable that many of such schools will find they have too de-emphasize the sport - or give it up entirely, if it is not feasible to pile more costs on the student body in the form of "fees" , obtain huge new subsidies from the legislature in the case of publics, or dip deeply into their endowment in the case of privates. Remember, schools outside the Power 5 will not have the TV networks standing by to pick up the tab.

In the end, a range of schools squeezed by these pending cost increases may decide - reluctantly, that the Ivies got it right, decades ago, when they moved to limit the "overemphasis" on football.

You are not elitist, however, your view's quite biased towards the Ivy Presidents' POV. IMHO, their stand on Athletic Scholarships still needs to be there, but on the participation in the playoffs, that needs to change 360 degrees, at least in our lifetime.

Overemphasis on football? Look at Chicago, they had to go by without football for almost 25 years (after their glory days in what is now the B1G), and it's only now that they are slowly gaining the exposure in D-III, and it's along with a new conference affiliation for football only. They were in the cellar long enough (in D-III) for them to fall into obscurity... (MIT also falls here) even St. Xavier (NAIA-affiliated and the only other city of Chicago college football-playing school) doesn't get enough exposure in the Chicago media with the Maroons. Why not look at the NESCAC, crimsonfan? They still have football but do not play the likes of MIT, Johns Hopkins or Chicago, who are all eligible for the playoffs.


Thanks very much for illustrating what Ivy football programs have been doing for decades, when they are no longer among the best at their current level of play they quit trying and claim some arcane, elitist hubris concerning academic standards as the justification. Strangely, this has not occurred with Division 1 Hockey Programs which are more intense than FCS football, the season runs longer, the players travel more, and Ivies are full participants including NCAA playoffs. This contradiction defies any reasonable explanation so don't make a fool out of yourself and try. Instead, stay the big fish in your grandiose pond and stop insulting FCS playoff teams that could score on your team at will IF you had the gumption to play them.

Hockey is a completely different story altogether. Keep Ivy hockey and football discussions separately and DON'T mix them. xrulesx


For the life of me, I cannot understand why any Ivy League team would feel its pulse quicken at the prospect of a post-season clash with Coastal Carolina, etc etc. The further prospect of mid-exam face-offs against Southeastern Illinois Tech or whoever, culminating (if you are .... eh.. lucky) in a summit battle with North Dakota State or some such in Fargo, ND or Frisco TX in January is not particularly appealing.

Lets face it: the FCS is a conglomeration of second-raters and losers, who the Power 5 have shunted aside and cut off from the bug bucks. Who wants to criss-cross the country, playing before high school-sized crowds, to be crowned the best of the worst?

A minority view, perhaps, but I'm entitled to it. This boring FCS playoff stuff bears no comparison to March Madness or the ice hockey national championships, where you're really playing for something that COUNTS.

Boring? Why not root for a second (of course playoff-eligible) FCS team (just like I will do in ETSU next season)? I don't really get your point. Hopkins and MIT play playoff D-III football and are content with it. Chicago will be back in postseason football in the next several years.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I for one don't view FCS as a "reject" or "loser" classification. Actually, I really relish the classification! Mainly because my Alma Mater can compete nationally without caving in on standards and values. UNH doesn't have the resources to compete with the monster State U's of FBS and it isn't going to admit the kids who don't belong in college but are because football and basketball don't have minor league systems to provide them another option. I've got no problem competing with IL State and Southern ILL instead of the Illini, with UNI rather than Iowa State or Iowa, Delaware instead of Maryland, William & Mary and Richmond instead of Wake Forest and Duke, etc.

The new Harvard guy talks about truly competing for a national championship in basketball and hockey. My Alma Mater is also an ice hockey school and I'll flat out state that winning the FCS Championship would mean more to me and would have a more positive impact on my school than winning the Ice Hockey National Championship. That's because less than 64 schools play ice hockey, many aren't even D-I Institutions and because Ice Hockey is a regional, niche sport rather than a national sport like football. As for basketball, is Harvard REALLY competing for the National Championship? Yes, they've won some tournament games and IIRC made a Sweet Sixteen, but are they ever going to beat a Kentucky, Louisville, Kansas, etc. type elite program at the top of its game? And at what cost? I mean Harvard has already had issues with players cheating and their team is hardly representative of their student body. Shoot, not sure how many of your players would be admitted to state universities if they weren't basketball players. I've got news for you, if you really want to compete for the hoop championship, you really need to jump into the cesspool!! Is the Ivy League "Gentleman's C" philosophy good enough to hide a basketball team capable of competing for the whole enchilada? Or will you have to have nonsense course/majors like Chapel Hill or recruit a bunch of one and done's like KY? While I don't like how bad basketball has been at my school, I don't want them ever to become one of the semi-professional, collegiate in name only programs that win national championships.

[Green26]

Good post, UNH Alum. Very good thoughts and analysis, and, of course, I agree.

[crimsonfan]

I for one don't view FCS as a "reject" or "loser" classification. Actually, I really relish the classification! Mainly because my Alma Mater can compete nationally without caving in on standards and values. UNH doesn't have the resources to compete with the monster State U's of FBS and it isn't going to admit the kids who don't belong in college but are because football and basketball don't have minor league systems to provide them another option. I've got no problem competing with IL State and Southern ILL instead of the Illini, with UNI rather than Iowa State or Iowa, Delaware instead of Maryland, William & Mary and Richmond instead of Wake Forest and Duke, etc.

The new Harvard guy talks about truly competing for a national championship in basketball and hockey. My Alma Mater is also an ice hockey school and I'll flat out state that winning the FCS Championship would mean more to me and would have a more positive impact on my school than winning the Ice Hockey National Championship. That's because less than 64 schools play ice hockey, many aren't even D-I Institutions and because Ice Hockey is a regional, niche sport rather than a national sport like football. As for basketball, is Harvard REALLY competing for the National Championship? Yes, they've won some tournament games and IIRC made a Sweet Sixteen, but are they ever going to beat a Kentucky, Louisville, Kansas, etc. type elite program at the top of its game? And at what cost? I mean Harvard has already had issues with players cheating and their team is hardly representative of their student body. Shoot, not sure how many of your players would be admitted to state universities if they weren't basketball players. I've got news for you, if you really want to compete for the hoop championship, you really need to jump into the cesspool!! Is the Ivy League "Gentleman's C" philosophy good enough to hide a basketball team capable of competing for the whole enchilada? Or will you have to have nonsense course/majors like Chapel Hill or recruit a bunch of one and done's like KY? While I don't like how bad basketball has been at my school, I don't want them ever to become one of the semi-professional, collegiate in name only programs that win national championships.

This arrant nonsense, and hardly "good thoughts and analysis" whether Green 26 agrees or not.

[bonarae]

I for one don't view FCS as a "reject" or "loser" classification. Actually, I really relish the classification! Mainly because my Alma Mater can compete nationally without caving in on standards and values. UNH doesn't have the resources to compete with the monster State U's of FBS and it isn't going to admit the kids who don't belong in college but are because football and basketball don't have minor league systems to provide them another option. I've got no problem competing with IL State and Southern ILL instead of the Illini, with UNI rather than Iowa State or Iowa, Delaware instead of Maryland, William & Mary and Richmond instead of Wake Forest and Duke, etc.

...

As for basketball, is Harvard REALLY competing for the National Championship? Yes, they've won some tournament games and IIRC made a Sweet Sixteen, but are they ever going to beat a Kentucky, Louisville, Kansas, etc. type elite program at the top of its game? And at what cost? I mean Harvard has already had issues with players cheating and their team is hardly representative of their student body. Shoot, not sure how many of your players would be admitted to state universities if they weren't basketball players. I've got news for you, if you really want to compete for the hoop championship, you really need to jump into the cesspool!! Is the Ivy League "Gentleman's C" philosophy good enough to hide a basketball team capable of competing for the whole enchilada? Or will you have to have nonsense course/majors like Chapel Hill or recruit a bunch of one and done's like KY? While I don't like how bad basketball has been at my school, I don't want them ever to become one of the semi-professional, collegiate in name only programs that win national championships.

Paragraph 1 - I agree with this. The problem with Ivy football today is that they are really stuck with programs many alumni haven't even heard of before and also the strictures tied to their scheduling. If only those two sports have tiered minor league systems, imagine what happens...

Paragraph 2 - I also agree. Great analysis of this.

[crimsonfan]

Of course you agree, as an "AGS FCS Expert."

[RichH2]

Of course you agree, as an "AGS FCS Expert."
Disagreeing with a poster's point of view does not render it "arrant nonsense". IMO his points were well presented.
It is very rare when I disagree with bonarae,but your dismissal out of hand of FCS and anyone who supports it does smack of elitism.

To me ,it is always a meaningful pursuit to seek to be the best among your peers. For FCS,our peers are smaller state schools and private colleges. To be the best here is worthwhile. To demean the goal simply because we are not as big as FBS schools only reflects the insular parochialism of the IL and at least one of their alumni.

[kalm]

This arrant nonsense, and hardly "good thoughts and analysis" whether Green 26 agrees or not.

English, please.

[Go...gate]

Listen, crimsonfan, you can take issue with any of my posts that you like, and express any views that you like. I'm no censor. I've made a number of friends on this board over the years, gone to games with them, and tailgated with them. If you stick with it, you'll find that most of the active posters are "first raters." And if you choose to denigrate the FCS playoffs, that's entirely up to you.

Amen.

[Pard4Life]

Not sure if IvyTalk likes ripping more on Dartmouth or Penn these days!

[Ivytalk]

Not sure if IvyTalk likes ripping more on Dartmouth or Penn these days!

Dartmouth, because there are no Penn posters to fight back!:D

[Go Green]

Dartmouth, because there are no Penn posters to fight back!:D

That we're your biggest threat for 2015 doesn't factor in it?

Do you know that I always pop open a bottle of champagne when there's no three-peat champion in the Ivy yet again? Harvard's won two in a row, but I'm fully expecting to pop open the bubbly yet again in November. And this will be a double celebration. :)

[PantherRob82]

As for basketball, is Harvard REALLY competing for the National Championship? Yes, they've won some tournament games and IIRC made a Sweet Sixteen, but are they ever going to beat a Kentucky, Louisville, Kansas, etc. type elite program at the top of its game?

We did. :D

[Ivytalk]

That we're your biggest threat for 2015 doesn't factor in it?

Do you know that I always pop open a bottle of champagne when there's no three-peat champion in the Ivy yet again? Harvard's won two in a row, but I'm fully expecting to pop open the bubbly yet again in November. And this will be a double celebration. :)

You just can't resist the baited hook, can you? I think you've been nursing the same warm bottle of Mumm's since 1996.

[Go Green]

I conceded there hasn't been tons to cheer about in the past 18 years.

That being said, Dartmouth is the last team to threepeat. Harvard has never achieved a threepeat, and they never will.

:)

[Ivytalk]

I conceded there hasn't been tons to cheer about in the past 18 years.

That being said, Dartmouth is the last team to threepeat. Harvard has never achieved a threepeat, and they never will.

:)

Penn had a "fivepeat" back in the 80s, the last three of which were outright Ivy titles. Now that's a feat that may never be repeated.

[Go Green]

Penn had a "fivepeat" back in the 80s, the last three of which were outright Ivy titles. Now that's a feat that may never be repeated.

It was really amazing that they duplicated Dartmouth's fivepeat from the late 1960s-early 1970s.

:)

[HoyaMetanoia]

We did. :D

And then lost immediately after that.

You're no Wichita State. Heck, you're not Creighton or SIU.

[crimsonfan]

<<Dartmouth is the last team to threepeat. Harvard has never achieved a threepeat, and they never will.>>

What's a "threepeat?" Is that like winning the Ivy championship 3 years in a row?

[Go Green]

<<Dartmouth is the last team to threepeat. Harvard has never achieved a threepeat, and they never will.>>

What's a "threepeat?" Is that like winning the Ivy championship 3 years in a row?

Harvard did it. Dartmouth had Harvard by the throat, but we couldn't finish the deal.

My champagne-popping days are over....

[crimsonfan]

With their much-praised Class of 2020 (even missing a couple of guys Reno counted as "admits" before the Admissions Office weighed in) Yale should presumably be starting its own "threepeat" run this fall.

[bulldog10jw]

With their much-praised Class of 2020 (even missing a couple of guys Reno counted as "admits" before the Admissions Office weighed in) Yale should presumably be starting its own "threepeat" run this fall.

That should closely coincide with Harvard's run of 3 NCAA championships in basketball..........at least if we are going by the much-praised factor.xrolleyesx

[crimsonfan]

Harvard's 2020 basketball class only ranked about 12th nationally .... well below Duke, Kentucky, etc. every year. So no NCAA championships counted on just yet!

[clenz]

And then lost immediately after that.

You're no Wichita State. Heck, you're not Creighton or SIU.

You're right. Creighton hasn't been past the first weekend in decades and SIU is. Dumpster fire of all dumpster fires the last decade