Frustration in NDSU Country....and a Serious Question or Two

[CaBisonFan]

Hey folks....I'm brand new here.

Yes...Bison fans are a frustrated bunch right now. We have a playoff-caliber team that we feel could be in the hunt for the big prize...but we're still boxed up in the 5-year probationary period. We have some very uniquely gifted players at many of the key positions...and linemen on both sides that are beating people up...including Minnesota.

We knew the rules going in....but it still hurts. We wish that the country could see this team....and players like Kyle Steffes, Justin Frick, and others.

On a more positive note....we've seen some truly amazing football this year, and really should have had a 'W' at Minnesota. For myself, I would rank it as one of the weaker performances by the Bison this year in terms of execution. The guys played their hearts out and made some amazing plays...but two or three drives were stopped because of our mistakes...which hasn't been typical this year.

I'm curious about the probationary period.

How many years of probation did your teams have to do? Have all of you gone through 5 years....was it more at one point....or was it less? It's not a loaded question. I'd seriously like to know.

And finally....have all of you been at this point....with an outstanding team waiting to become eligible for the playoffs?

PS - I apologize for the whiners. I've just tried to explain where some of the frustration is coming from. It still doesn't make it right though.

[Walkon79]

Many of the 1AA conferences, such as the Big Sky, were originals when 1AA was formed. No probationary period that I can remember back in the day.

[CaBisonFan]

Many of the 1AA conferences, such as the Big Sky, were originals when 1AA was formed. No probationary period that I can remember back in the day.

Thanks

[youwouldno]

Many schools entered I-AA when they were already D-I programs. Otherwise their transitions were governed by NCAA rules at the time of their ascension.

Seriously though, it's not just that NDSU has to 'play by the rules,' but the whole idea of being frustrated over them is totally asinine. They are the rules, period, and NDSU knew about them from the time they looked into moving up.

[CaBisonFan]

Your information is appreciated. Your opinion about our frustration is not. If you were in our shoes, you'd be singing the same song. When your team entered DI-AA, did you serve 5 years?

Yes....we knew the rules. But there's another take on this. NDSU was a well-established DII power, when DII was a serious division. The NCAA effectively destroyed DII by allowing a ton of smaller programs into the division...with full voting rights. They voted the scholarship levels down to a point where a school like us had to move up.

There should be a provision that allows for a situation like this. DII was changed drastically. Teams like NDSU should have been given a one or two year window....not 5.

We weren't an upstart program that needed 5 years to adjust on the field. We didn't need NCAA protection.

But I am very interested in hearing about how your team entered. Could you give me this information?

[ASU Kep]

App St. was reclassed I-AA from the beginning and didn't have to through any of that.

[ASU Kep]

I feel for you guys though, this must be a pretty crappy feeling. From what I understand your team is actually pretty young though, and a lot of the guys (freshmen and sophomores this year) will be around when you guys get a chance to dance. Recruiting has to be pretty easy now, too. You can show a recruit what ya'll managed to do this year, and tell him if he red-shirts a year he'll never have to go through this.

[TheBisonator]

The Number One reason why the 5-year transition period exists today, and why it didn't exist 15, 20, 30 years ago. Two words:

MARCH MADNESS

[youwouldno]

Your information is appreciated. Your opinion about our frustration is not. If you were in our shoes, you'd be singing the same song. When your team entered DI-AA, did you serve 5 years?

Yes....we knew the rules. But there's another take on this. NDSU was a well-established DII power, when DII was a serious division. The NCAA effectively destroyed DII by allowing a ton of smaller programs into the division...with full voting rights. They voted the scholarship levels down to a point where a school like us had to move up.

There should be a provision that allows for a situation like this. DII was changed drastically. Teams like NDSU should have been given a one or two year window....not 5.

We weren't an upstart program that needed 5 years to adjust on the field. We didn't need NCAA protection.

But I am very interested in hearing about how your team entered. Could you give me this information?
Furman has been division I for so long as the divisions have existed, to the best of my knowledge. So there never was a transition period. The Paladins were playing basketball and football a hundred years ago.

But on NDSU... if the Bison didn't want a probationary period, then you should have stayed D-II. I understand the apparent inequity of the system; indeed, the NCAA is a generally vile organization that is entirely self-serving. And by NCAA I mean the elements that exists outside of the functions which are essentially controlled by the member institutions.

Legally though, NDSU has no case at all. Whether or not the probationary period makes sense for NDSU specifically has no bearing at all on the rule. If, more often than not, the rule makes sense, then the rule is not unfair. I have not seen NDSU fans make that case. In other words, your argument for inclusion is totally without legitimacy.

[ASU Kep]

I don't think they are arguing for inclusion...I think they are pointing out what might be a pointless rule that right now is prohibiting one of the best teams in I-AA from competing for a NC. I highly doubt any NDSU fans hold any playoff dreams for this year or next...

[CaBisonFan]

I don't think they are arguing for inclusion...I think they are pointing out what might be a pointless rule that right now is prohibiting one of the best teams in I-AA from competing for a NC. I highly doubt any NDSU fans hold any playoff dreams for this year or next...

Thank you. You get it. I appreciate it.

[youwouldno]

Well what I'm saying is, NDSU alone does not make the rule clearly foolish. My tendency is to disagree with it, but this situation is not really the norm for transitional programs. This may be a 'celebrated case' as academics say, but one case alone is, at most, a reason to look more broadly at the rule and its impact.

[CaBisonFan]

Furman has been division I for so long as the divisions have existed, to the best of my knowledge. So there never was a transition period. The Paladins were playing basketball and football a hundred years ago.

But on NDSU... if the Bison didn't want a probationary period, then you should have stayed D-II. I understand the apparent inequity of the system; indeed, the NCAA is a generally vile organization that is entirely self-serving. And by NCAA I mean the elements that exists outside of the functions which are essentially controlled by the member institutions.

Legally though, NDSU has no case at all. Whether or not the probationary period makes sense for NDSU specifically has no bearing at all on the rule. If, more often than not, the rule makes sense, then the rule is not unfair. I have not seen NDSU fans make that case. In other words, your argument for inclusion is totally without legitimacy.

My point about DII is that the NCAA allowed it to be destroyed. The rug was pulled out from under us. Stronger programs, some in the NCC, were not given any wiggle room for moving to DI-AA, while DII turned into something between DIII and the old DII. The level of competition dropped off tremendously.

The Bison program suffered greatly because of the scholarship drops. We also had an amazingly poor AD at the time without any vision or leadership skills. NDSU (and others) were put in a catch-22.

School administrators cringe at the negativity that comes with this kind of move. They hear...'where's the money...no playoffs...few home games....where's the conference....moving up is stupid.'

I dare say that the admin. at South Dakota State and North Dakota State have been living in some kind of hell since the decision was made. There's some light at the end of the tunnel now...so it's getting easier in some ways. We're loving our football team....big-time. The rule is stupid. We have no dillusions of changing the rule for us. But we are still very frustrated. We had very few options. It wasn't right...or fair. It was like....'you can choose between 5 years.....5 years.....or remain in a league that is becoming a real joke. There are just a few good teams left in DII...and even they have been watered down to rosters that are barely one-deep. And recruiting has become nightmare in DII.

We have one more season of playoff futility. We have to focus on the season. If we beat South Dakota State soundly this Saturday, we deserve a top 3 or 4 finish....regardless of missing the playoffs. It's stupid though....to have one of the elite teams sitting at home while many DI-AA programs 'never' had to go through this. There's nothing right or fair about this. Nothing.

The frustration and the whining comes from realizing that we have a team that could make some real noise in the playoffs...and knowing that the rule is stupid. We'd like to play the teams that are rated above or close to us. It's human nature.

Not your fault though. Thanks for your comments.

[MR. CHICKEN]

NO AUTHORITY......HOWEVERAH.....DUH 5 YEAR RULE......IS PROBABLY MEANT...TA "EASE IN"....THE SCHOOLS DAT WANT TO MOVE UP.......SO DAT DEY ARE NOT 'WAFFLED' BY THE COMPETITON AT THE NEW LEVEL...(AN' TA GRADUALLY UP DUH SCHOLLIES)......ALSO..POSSIBLY........TA PREVENT UH LOADED D-II POWERHOUSE...FROM INSTANTLY.....RUNNIN' AWAY WHIFF.....DUH I-AA "BLING"................AH FO' ONE....WOULD....LOVE TA SEE DUH "CHIPS"...TAKE DUH FIELD...TA DANCE WHIFF SOME OTHERAH ELITE I-AA's.........AH CAN TRULY UNDERSTAND...DUH FRUSTRATIONS.......AH'D FEEL THE SAME WAY......IT'S NOT EVERAH DAY...........DAT UH TEAM CAPABLE O' WINNIN' IT ALL....COMES ALONG........HOWEVERAH.......IT'S DUH RULE...BISON LADS.......AN' FROM LISTENIN' TA OTTO FAD...MONDAY........NORFF DAKOTA IS FERTILE......WHIFF TALENT....DAT OFTEN GETS OVERAH LOOKED.....BY DUH BIG GUYS.........AN' ND STATE.......LANDS....ALOT O' DUH IN-STATERS........YA'LL WILL BE 'ROUND FOR MANY YEARS.....AN' PROBABLY IN DUH HUNT......FO' MOST O' DEM............AGIN'........AH'D LIKE TA WATCH YA'LL ON ESPN......FROM 'NOOGA.....(PREFERABLY...WHIFF...UMA$$)....AS MUCH AS ALL DUH BISON FANS.........HEY....MAYBEAH DOWN DUH ROAD....:twocents:....AWK!

[Gil Dobie]

I didn't like the rule when the Bison started the transition and don't like it now. But I accept the rules as NDSU accepted it as part of it's transition to DI. If you followed the Bison announcement and transition process from the beginning, you knew what the rules were, and knew there would be no playoffs until 2008.

[LacesOut]

For this specific situation, obviously the rule absolutely SUCKS. I apologize for not being able to find a more eloquent word to describe it. And it sucks because NDSU is one bad ass football squad that would clearly kick the ass of most of the 16 teams that will be in the playoffs.

But in most other situations for teams moving up, I think it's a fairly good rule. I don't agree with a five year transition though, too long, imo.

[Mr. C]

The main reason for the five-year transition period has to do with compliance issues. At least that is what has been explained to me. There is legislation that has been proposed by the Southland Conference to shorten the transition period in regards to playoff participation (I want to say to two of three years, don't know all the details), but I can tell you that there is little, if any support from the the other I-AA conferences for this.

[Mr. C]

By the way, to my SoCon friends:

The Southern Conference was I-A up until the major shake-up in Division I football before the 1982 season. At that time, the whole television thing between the top schools and the NCAA was coming to a head (the final straw being when ABC had to show an Appalachian State-Citadel game instead of an Oklahoma-Georgia game, as it has been explained to me). I-AA began in 1978, but the I-AA as we know it really had its full beginning in 1982 with the reclassification of a truckload of schools and conferences. There were a lot of financial decisions and facility decisions that had to be made by the conferences and the schools before the 1982 season. Some, like the Mid-American and the PCAA (later known as the Big West), chose to stay at I-A. Others, like the SoCon, chose to drop to I-AA.

[AppGuy04]

I like the rule, however, the time period seems a little long. In the case of NDSU, they may not have needed the transition period, but most schools do. It sucks that you have to go through it, but there's no point whining about something you can't control.

[thirdgendin]

Maybe one of the reasons for the rule is for all of the players to be recruited while the school is a I-AA member. I'm not sure of any of the entrance requirements, etc. that are different between DII and I-AA.

[Tealblood]

the recruiting rules are tougher at D-I so you need 5 years to purge(?) the D-II system of players who were recruited using looser( ?) standards. At least this is how it was explained to me.

[blukeys]

By the way, to my SoCon friends:

The Southern Conference was I-A up until the major shake-up in Division I football before the 1982 season. At that time, the whole television thing between the top schools and the NCAA was coming to a head (the final straw being when ABC had to show an Appalachian State-Citadel game instead of an Oklahoma-Georgia game, as it has been explained to me). I-AA began in 1978, but the I-AA as we know it really had its full beginning in 1982 with the reclassification of a truckload of schools and conferences. There were a lot of financial decisions and facility decisions that had to be made by the conferences and the schools before the 1982 season. Some, like the Mid-American and the PCAA (later known as the Big West), chose to stay at I-A. Others, like the SoCon, chose to drop to I-AA.

The story I heard was that the Mid American was also due to be sent to I-AA but fought the move.

[89Hen]

I didn't like the rule when the Bison started the transition and don't like it now. But I accept the rules as NDSU accepted it as part of it's transition to DI. If you followed the Bison announcement and transition process from the beginning, you knew what the rules were, and knew there would be no playoffs until 2008.
:nod: Agreed on all parts Gil. But I still think the rule is absolutely asinine. 5 years is just too long. There are two excuses given and I don't buy either.

First excuse... I seriously doubt any program is going to move their entire athletic department up to DI just to get their bball team in the tourney and then drop back down. And if that's a concern, make it that if you move up and drop back down, you cannot move back up for 10 years. End of that problem.

Second reason... It's complete horse**** that the NCAA feels they need to "protect" schools by allowing them to "ease in" to DI. There have been so many schools that have done it that any school considering it will have the plan well researched and ready to go. These schools hire consultants to do studies on the move to DI and many decide it wouldn't work. It's not like there are 30 schools that move up every year and 28 of them fail. Who was the last program to go from DI to DII? :nonono2:

IMO it will be a complete travesty to have somebody in the top 5 of I-AA sitting at home Thanksgiving weekend. Honestly, not to take anything away from our 2006 champion, but I think the NC should have an asterisk this year. : smh :

[AppGuy04]

Honestly, not to take anything away from our 2006 champion, but I think the NC should have an asterisk this year. : smh :

That might be taking it a little far, because for all we know, the Bison would lose in the first round. Probable, no, could it happen, yes.

[bandl]

That might be taking it a little far, because for all we know, the Bison would lose in the first round. Probable, no, could it happen, yes.

Then we might as well add asterisks to every year in which an Ivy or SWAC playoff-potential team didn't participate. Who knows what Penn or Southern could have done in 2003, or what Harvard could have done in 2004, or what Grambling could have done last year. :confused:

[89Hen]

the recruiting rules are tougher at D-I so you need 5 years to purge(?) the D-II system of players who were recruited using looser( ?) standards. At least this is how it was explained to me.
I guess that's excuse #3 and again is crap IMO. That's saying a DII team has an unfair advantage against the best in I-AA. I know the best of DII can compete with much of I-AA, but to say they have an avantage is a joke. AFAIK, the DII playoff field was 4-5 vs. I-AA this year and only two of the wins were noteworthy IMO, while four of the losses were to teams that aren't in the Top 25 of I-AA.

Wins
Chadron over MSU
UND over UNI
NCCentral over Southern
Delta State over SFA

Losses
Bloomsburg to JMU
West Chester to UD
Southern Conn to CCSU
Merrimack to URI
South Dakota to UCA

[89Hen]

Then we might as well add asterisks to every year in which an Ivy or SWAC playoff-potential team didn't participate.
I agree that I may have been speaking in hyperbole with the asterisk, but the Ivy and SWAC don't bother me, it's their choice to not play. Also, the fact that the SWAC is 0-19 in the playoffs means no asterisk for their non-inclusion.

[YoUDeeMan]

:
IMO it will be a complete travesty to have somebody in the top 5 of I-AA sitting at home Thanksgiving weekend. Honestly, not to take anything away from our 2006 champion, but I think the NC should have an asterisk this year. : smh :

Before we anoint NDSU the official 2006 I-AA tri-champions (along with USD and the playoff winner), remember that NDSU has only beaten two teams with a winning record. One of those victories was against a weak 6-5 team the SWAC, and the other was a 6-4 Cal Poly team with no offense.

D-II Concordia
Northestern 4-6
@ Ball St D-I 3-7
@SFA 3-7
@GSU 3-7
MVSU (SWAC) 6-5
@ Minn D-I (only loss) 5-6
@ SU 3-7
@UC Davis 4-5
Cal Poly 6-4

The Bison are a good team, so don't crap on me. They have done a good job of winning their games - something that some other teams can't claim. But nothing in their resume suggests that they would walk through the playoffs.

As far as the probationary period goes, it is what it is.

If the academic qualifications are different for D-II and I-AA, then maybe DII teams could shorten their probationary time by "casting off" anyone not making the I-AA standards and play only with the remaining players/schollies. Of course, that would raise serious questions as to the fairness to those players recruited under the D-II guidelines. :twocents:

[WYOBISONMAN]

A large part of the transition is making sure that the increased academic rigors of DI are being met by the institutions moving up. That is the part that NDSU is working on now. While it may be frustrating for fans (especially us Bison fans) I think the rule is reasonable.

A very important effect of having this long period of "Purgatory" is that it acts as a barrier to teams jumping up a Division. That is good. When a team decides to move to DI it should only be done with a huge amount of committment and adequate resources and facilities. Clearly NDSU is way a head of the game in all those areas, but with out the significant transition period I am afraid we would have a lot of schools moving up that ought not move.

[bandl]

I agree that I may have been speaking in hyperbole with the asterisk, but the Ivy and SWAC don't bother me, it's their choice to not play. Also, the fact that the SWAC is 0-19 in the playoffs means no asterisk for their non-inclusion.

Understood...i'm just curious about the "What if" factors for the Ivy/SWAC & NDSU. What if the Ivy/SWAC chose to participate and the SWAC one year ended that 0-19 dry spell (Grambling would have made some noise last year with a win or two, IMO)?? And what if NDSU were allowed to participate this year? It's disappointing to me that we'll never find out and that we can only speculate. :( Who knows...NDSU could have been like Hampton last year. Get a seed...some people think they're going to win a game or two, others think they won't do a thing. We saw how that turned out.

[Gil Dobie]

Before we anoint NDSU the official 2006 I-AA tri-champions (along with USD and the playoff winner), remember that NDSU has only beaten two teams with a winning record. One of those victories was against a weak 6-5 team the SWAC, and the other was a 6-4 Cal Poly team with no offense.

D-II Concordia
Northestern 4-6
@ Ball St D-I 3-7
@SFA 3-7
@GSU 3-7
MVSU (SWAC) 6-5
@ Minn D-I (only loss) 5-6
@ SU 3-7
@UC Davis 4-5
Cal Poly 6-4

The Bison are a good team, so don't crap on me. They have done a good job of winning their games - something that some other teams can't claim. But nothing in their resume suggests that they would walk through the playoffs.

As far as the probationary period goes, it is what it is.

If the academic qualifications are different for D-II and I-AA, then maybe DII teams could shorten their probationary time by "casting off" anyone not making the I-AA standards and play only with the remaining players/schollies. Of course, that would raise serious questions as to the fairness to those players recruited under the D-II guidelines. :twocents:

Ball State is 4-7, beat Toledo last night, losses to Purdue, Indiana and Michigan. Minnesota is one win away from a Bowl game. If you are going to classify MVSU as a weak 6-5 team, then you should classify UCD(losses to TCU, Cal Poly, SDSU, NDSU, YSU) and Northeastern(UMass & UNH played tough) as strong 4 win teams. The schedule is not as weak as it looks with the teams overall records. That being said, I am not promoting NDSU for a mythical championship, rules are rules.

[BisonBacker]

Anyone who argues the academic side of DII vs DI is only fooling themselves. That dog has no bite.

[Canyoncat]

NDSU and SDSU should have made this move a few years ago! Plus they should be in the Big Sky Conference. O'well, water under the bridge now. It will be great when UND and possibly USD make the move as well. The Dakota schools are great additions to D-IAA and will help off set the losses of schools moving to D-IA like WKU and a few others that will probably make the move in the next few years.

[GABison]

Canyoncat, thanks for the kind words!:)

[Tailbone]

That might be taking it a little far, because for all we know, the Bison would lose in the first round. Probable, no, could it happen, yes.

This is probably one of three or four schools that has a
legitimate shot at winning a national championship, because of its
balance and confidence. SIU is just a dropped two-point conversion pass
(against I-A Northern Illinois) away from an 11-0 record.

#2 in preseason polls, # 1 for 10 straight weeks. SIU was clear favorite to win the National Championship.

Eastern washington 35 - Southern Illinois 31 (Round 1 - 2004)

Speculation and assumption is unfair to NDSU and everyone who plays in I-AA.

That's why we play the games.

[Go Bison]

NDSU fans it has been a great year and we still got a big game this weekend against the Jacks. Next year will be great as well and I am hearing that Coach Bohl is going after better recruits this year than in the past. My only concern right now for 2008 is trying to replace Steve Walker. Hopefully Mertens or Parsons can do the job.

[JBB]

There are a lot of reasons why there is a transition but none of them have to do with how good your teams are.

There are compliance issues, budgetary issues, scheduling issues, scholarship issues institutional issues that have nothing to do with teams on the field.

NDSU fans that lament the fact we arent in the playoffs are off base. We dont belong in the playoffs. We arent even members of Division 1 yet. We will be voted on by all active members in good standing when the transition is complete.

If we are approved we are in. right now we are provisional members. Our stats arent even compiled with active D1 members.

At least we count as a D1 opponent though. You dont in your first year.

[GtFllsGriz]

NDSU fans, there is nothing that can be said that will make the pain of watching the playoffs move on without you feel any better. I know that you are all venting the frustration of not being able to fully realize the potential of your team. However, it is what it is. By the end of this season 15 other teams will be saying much of the same thing; what if, if only, we should have etc. In a few short seasons this will all be forgotten and you will have participated in the playoffs, probably more times than what many other teams want you to.

I am sorry for your situation. All we as fans want is for the competition to recognize and respect the abilities of our team. You have that now.

[Death Dealer]

I can feel your frustration. Without knowing all the information on the reasoning behind the NCAA's 5 year rule, it does seem a little long. I generally find that I disagree with alot of what they do though, so no suprise there. Of course, anytime you get a single organization governing the actions of such a huge diverse group like collegiate athletics you're gonna have issues. Beats the endless problems that would probably exist with any alterantive I guess.

[McNeese72]

I guess that's excuse #3 and again is crap IMO.

It's not crap. If they played in the playoffs, they might be playing players that academically in I-AA would be ineligible. It might not give them advantage but rules are rules and playing ineligible players in the playoffs is not kosher to the NCAA. Just ask SFA.

Doc

[OrneryAggie]

The Number One reason why the 5-year transition period exists today, and why it didn't exist 15, 20, 30 years ago. Two words:

MARCH MADNESS


I absolutely agree with this. I'll add two more words:

SAVANNAH STATE

in the late 90's the probation period from DII to DI was just 2 years. That wasn't enough of a deterrent to keep such DII powerhouses as UC Riverside and Savannah State :rolleyes: from making the jump to the glory and financial rewards of DI. Immediately after those 2 moved the NCAA put a 4 year moratorium on transitions then decided to make the transition 4/5 years to help prevent more embarassments like SSU and UCR from chasing the money.

The rule is designed more as a deterrent than a motivation to meet some mythical DI academic standards. (we know that most BCS schools can find ways around any kind of academic rule to get the athletes they want.)

I think the probation period has had a huge effect on UCD. The Aggies had been to the DII playoffs more than any other school in history. Without that motivation for a championship the past 4 seasons the team really seems to lack any motivation on the field (besides the obvious games with Suc St, Poly, and Stanford) Anyone who's seen UCD play lately knows they can look like world beaters one minute and high schoolers the next. I know that's mostly the coaches' and players' faults for losing focus (ndsu has been able to overcome it.) But I gotta think the meaninglessness of the seasons has to be floating around in the back of their heads and leading to the apathy we've seen on the field and in the stands while on probation.

[OrneryAggie]

It's not crap. If they played in the playoffs, they might be playing players that academically in I-AA would be ineligible. It might not give them advantage but rules are rules and playing ineligible players in the playoffs is not kosher to the NCAA. Just ask SFA.

Doc

If this were a real problem then UCD should've been given an exemption from the transition probation because the academic standards there are tougher than any other DI's outside of the Ivy's, Stanford, Duke, and some of the patriot league teams.

The academic reasons for the rule make no sense in the eyes of us Aggies.

[henfan]

It's no secret why the wait time is five years. It's the length of time it takes to go through one recruiting class.

As for NDSU, they knew what the waiting period would be when they agreed to reclassify. No surprises there. The good news is that the Bison should be a regular fixture in the playoffs beyond 2008.

[AZGrizFan]

I agree that I may have been speaking in hyperbole with the asterisk, but the Ivy and SWAC don't bother me, it's their choice to not play. Also, the fact that the SWAC is 0-19 in the playoffs means no asterisk for their non-inclusion.

Just as it was NDSU's choice to move up KNOWING the 5 year transition rule was in effect. Sucks for NDSU, but that's life. You play by the rules.....

On a scary side note: How in the WORLD has NDSU been able to recruit the level of talent they've gotten over the past 4 years KNOWING they could not participate in the playoffs? How do you convince top tier I-AA talent to come play for you with no promise of going to the promised land???

Very impressive. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Go Bison]

On a scary side note: How in the WORLD has NDSU been able to recruit the level of talent they've gotten over the past 4 years KNOWING they could not participate in the playoffs? How do you convince top tier I-AA talent to come play for you with no promise of going to the promised land???

Very impressive. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Just think of how good NDSU will be when they start to get I-A transfers.

[WYOBISONMAN]

On a scary side note: How in the WORLD has NDSU been able to recruit the level of talent they've gotten over the past 4 years KNOWING they could not participate in the playoffs? How do you convince top tier I-AA talent to come play for you with no promise of going to the promised land???
Very impressive. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


I always thought FARGO was the Promised Land..........that is why I went there........:smiley_wi

[BeauFoster]

Kinda off topic and I think I know the answer, but is there a probationary period for moving from I-AA to I-A?

[BisonBacker]

I do not believe so.

[FargoBison]

Kinda off topic and I think I know the answer, but is there a probationary period for moving from I-AA to I-A?

2 years

[No_Skill]

NDSU fans, there is nothing that can be said that will make the pain of watching the playoffs move on without you feel any better. I know that you are all venting the frustration of not being able to fully realize the potential of your team. However, it is what it is. By the end of this season 15 other teams will be saying much of the same thing; what if, if only, we should have etc. In a few short seasons this will all be forgotten and you will have participated in the playoffs, probably more times than what many other teams want you to.

I am sorry for your situation. All we as fans want is for the competition to recognize and respect the abilities of our team. You have that now.

It's kind of funny. When I read that I realized that our fans are kind of going through a mourning process. When you think about it it's true. What kind of reaction have Bison fans been giving? Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and finally Acceptance.

It sounds a little corny, but the similarities are shocking.

[No_Skill]

Just as it was NDSU's choice to move up KNOWING the 5 year transition rule was in effect. Sucks for NDSU, but that's life. You play by the rules.....

On a scary side note: How in the WORLD has NDSU been able to recruit the level of talent they've gotten over the past 4 years KNOWING they could not participate in the playoffs? How do you convince top tier I-AA talent to come play for you with no promise of going to the promised land???

Very impressive. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I think the answer to this is that we DON'T recruit top I-AA talent...we develop it. Credit the coaches for that.

[Tod]

I absolutely agree with this. I'll add two more words:

SAVANNAH STATE

in the late 90's the probation period from DII to DI was just 2 years. That wasn't enough of a deterrent to keep such DII powerhouses as UC Riverside and Savannah State :rolleyes: from making the jump to the glory and financial rewards of DI. Immediately after those 2 moved the NCAA put a 4 year moratorium on transitions then decided to make the transition 4/5 years to help prevent more embarassments like SSU and UCR from chasing the money.

The rule is designed more as a deterrent than a motivation to meet some mythical DI academic standards. (we know that most BCS schools can find ways around any kind of academic rule to get the athletes they want.)

I think the probation period has had a huge effect on UCD. The Aggies had been to the DII playoffs more than any other school in history. Without that motivation for a championship the past 4 seasons the team really seems to lack any motivation on the field (besides the obvious games with Suc St, Poly, and Stanford) Anyone who's seen UCD play lately knows they can look like world beaters one minute and high schoolers the next. I know that's mostly the coaches' and players' faults for losing focus (ndsu has been able to overcome it.) But I gotta think the meaninglessness of the seasons has to be floating around in the back of their heads and leading to the apathy we've seen on the field and in the stands while on probation.

Off topic, but it seems to me that a lot of people think this is amusing and clever, and use it too frequently. Can we keep that **** on the smack board? :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2:

[parr90]

Before we anoint NDSU the official 2006 I-AA tri-champions (along with USD and the playoff winner), remember that NDSU has only beaten two teams with a winning record. One of those victories was against a weak 6-5 team the SWAC, and the other was a 6-4 Cal Poly team with no offense.

D-II Concordia
Northestern 4-6
@ Ball St D-I 3-7
@SFA 3-7
@GSU 3-7
MVSU (SWAC) 6-5
@ Minn D-I (only loss) 5-6
@ SU 3-7
@UC Davis 4-5
Cal Poly 6-4

The Bison are a good team, so don't crap on me. They have done a good job of winning their games - something that some other teams can't claim. But nothing in their resume suggests that they would walk through the playoffs.

As far as the probationary period goes, it is what it is.

If the academic qualifications are different for D-II and I-AA, then maybe DII teams could shorten their probationary time by "casting off" anyone not making the I-AA standards and play only with the remaining players/schollies. Of course, that would raise serious questions as to the fairness to those players recruited under the D-II guidelines. :twocents:


Their showing against Minn was great and GSU allthough a bad record has alot of talent and went to the wire with both App and Furman. I think NDSU may be one of the 3 best teams in the country right now. I think the probation period is stupid. When GSU came into AA from being nothing they won the national championship in 2 years.

[bkrownd]

On a scary side note: How in the WORLD has NDSU been able to recruit the level of talent they've gotten over the past 4 years KNOWING they could not participate in the playoffs? How do you convince top tier I-AA talent to come play for you with no promise of going to the promised land???


Might have something to do with those national titles. Recruits don't know the diff between I-AA and D-2, they aren't thinking about playoffs, they just know whether the program has bling in the trophy case, regularly beats up other teams, and whether the captain has the ship headed in the right direction.

[No_Skill]

A UMASS fan in Hawai'i?

[bkrownd]

A UMASS fan in Hawai'i?

Gotta go where the 401k is.

[CaBisonFan]

I like the rule, however, the time period seems a little long. In the case of NDSU, they may not have needed the transition period, but most schools do. It sucks that you have to go through it, but there's no point whining about something you can't control.

Thanks for your reply. Question: Why couldn't a school opt to enter the playoff mode when they feel they're ready on the field?

[CaBisonFan]

:nod: Agreed on all parts Gil. But I still think the rule is absolutely asinine. 5 years is just too long. There are two excuses given and I don't buy either.

First excuse... I seriously doubt any program is going to move their entire athletic department up to DI just to get their bball team in the tourney and then drop back down. And if that's a concern, make it that if you move up and drop back down, you cannot move back up for 10 years. End of that problem.

Second reason... It's complete horse**** that the NCAA feels they need to "protect" schools by allowing them to "ease in" to DI. There have been so many schools that have done it that any school considering it will have the plan well researched and ready to go. These schools hire consultants to do studies on the move to DI and many decide it wouldn't work. It's not like there are 30 schools that move up every year and 28 of them fail. Who was the last program to go from DI to DII? :nonono2:

IMO it will be a complete travesty to have somebody in the top 5 of I-AA sitting at home Thanksgiving weekend. Honestly, not to take anything away from our 2006 champion, but I think the NC should have an asterisk this year. : smh :

Thank you for seeing the picture clearly. We're not an upstart program. We are the most dominant DII program in the history of the division...by many standards. NDSU was not treated well....nor was South Dakota State.

[CaBisonFan]

Before we anoint NDSU the official 2006 I-AA tri-champions (along with USD and the playoff winner), remember that NDSU has only beaten two teams with a winning record. One of those victories was against a weak 6-5 team the SWAC, and the other was a 6-4 Cal Poly team with no offense.

D-II Concordia
Northestern 4-6
@ Ball St D-I 3-7
@SFA 3-7
@GSU 3-7
MVSU (SWAC) 6-5
@ Minn D-I (only loss) 5-6
@ SU 3-7
@UC Davis 4-5
Cal Poly 6-4

The Bison are a good team, so don't crap on me. They have done a good job of winning their games - something that some other teams can't claim. But nothing in their resume suggests that they would walk through the playoffs.

As far as the probationary period goes, it is what it is.

If the academic qualifications are different for D-II and I-AA, then maybe DII teams could shorten their probationary time by "casting off" anyone not making the I-AA standards and play only with the remaining players/schollies. Of course, that would raise serious questions as to the fairness to those players recruited under the D-II guidelines. :twocents:

Many of our opponents have gone head-to-head with DI-A programs and strong DI-AA teams. Not all...but in the case of Cal Poly & UC Davis, they haven't exactly taken the easy road. Nor has SDSU. The records are deceptive. With such a small conference, we're either forced to visit one of the big boys, or to play programs at home that really shouldn't be playing at this level. The records mean little. There are only 3 conference games. We visited Ball State....a team that nearly clipped Indiana, Purdue...and....Michigan. They were no slouch. We completely outplayed Minnesota. Ball State announcers said that our defensive front seven was much better and stronger than Purdue and Indiana's. Not bad. Not great. Not bad. Our lines and linebackers are DI-A in caliber. Our quarterback could play for anyone....anyone.

[CaBisonFan]

A large part of the transition is making sure that the increased academic rigors of DI are being met by the institutions moving up. That is the part that NDSU is working on now. While it may be frustrating for fans (especially us Bison fans) I think the rule is reasonable.

A very important effect of having this long period of "Purgatory" is that it acts as a barrier to teams jumping up a Division. That is good. When a team decides to move to DI it should only be done with a huge amount of committment and adequate resources and facilities. Clearly NDSU is way a head of the game in all those areas, but with out the significant transition period I am afraid we would have a lot of schools moving up that ought not move.

Good points....but you're talking about mostly administrative hurdles. A school that displays significant progress should be rewarded. NDSU is way ahead of schedule in all areas. The leadership is outstanding. Very few programs in I-AA have had to spend this amount of time in pergatory. And finally...the Bison have a long tradition of a 'dynasty' in DII. The program 'was' functioning like a DI-AA program for decades. This should have been considered. Five years is too long.

[CaBisonFan]

There are a lot of reasons why there is a transition but none of them have to do with how good your teams are.

There are compliance issues, budgetary issues, scheduling issues, scholarship issues institutional issues that have nothing to do with teams on the field.

NDSU fans that lament the fact we arent in the playoffs are off base. We dont belong in the playoffs. We arent even members of Division 1 yet. We will be voted on by all active members in good standing when the transition is complete.

If we are approved we are in. right now we are provisional members. Our stats arent even compiled with active D1 members.

At least we count as a D1 opponent though. You dont in your first year.

You are correct. It is mostly about administrative issues. NDSU is way ahead of schedule in all areas however. We ran a DI-AA under the disguise of DII for decades. We were ready two decades ago. Exceptions should be made for well-established programs. Hardly anyone here has had to go through this pergatory. They seem to be just fine.

[DB_Atlantic10]

For this specific situation, obviously the rule absolutely SUCKS. I apologize for not being able to find a more eloquent word to describe it. And it sucks because NDSU is one bad ass football squad that would clearly kick the ass of most of the 16 teams that will be in the playoffs.

But in most other situations for teams moving up, I think it's a fairly good rule. I don't agree with a five year transition though, too long, imo. I haven't had a chance to read through all of the posts, but one consideration for the 5 year wait is probably do to the great difference in Academic requirement from D-II to D-I. A D-II program could be loaded with previous D-I non qualifiers, it would take a good five years to weed out all of those issues and get the program and recruiting classes up to snuff with the new rules. It would only be fair to the rest of the competition that has followed the Eligibility rules all along... it's not all about football. It's great that they have a good team, but how many players on the current roster could not qualify for D-I ball coming out of HS? That's the question....xcoffeex

[D1B]

NDSU is a victim of the shortsightedness of selfish and trembling coaches/
ADs, petty beaurocrats and former frat boys who control college athletics.

Dudes should have put in a rule that if probation teams achieve a certain national ranking, like top ten, they are eligible for the playoffs.

NDSU, IMO is the best team in 1AA.

[lizrdgizrd]

I think DB_Atlantic10 hit it on the nose. It wouldn't be fair for a team to load up on players who couldn't qualify for DI academically then move up to DI and play against all the other teams that only have qualified players.

Or look at it from the players' perspective. You sign up for a DII school because you can't qualify DI. You play a few years, you're getting ready to start and all of a sudden your school moves to DI. If they just jettisoned the players who weren't DI qualified in order to compete right away you'd be stuck. No more scholarship and you'd have to find a new school. Better to give them time to clear out naturally and have to start recruiting DI eligible guys.

[lucchesicourt]

This 5 year transitional period is nothing but hogwash to protect the status quo from being changed by a new institution. There is absolutely no good reason for such a long rtransitional period. Number 1- it is a death sentence to all teams moving up as many athletes will not sign with a team in transition as they are playoff exempt. Some student/athletes will have ABSOLUTELY 0 chance of the playoffs if they attend a transitional team- TOTALLY UNFAIR!! Number 2- the stuff about scholastic standards is also crap. The program in 4 years will have turned over 90% of its student population ( 5 year transition period), and the scholastic criteria can be met in ONE quarter or semester, as you are deemed either qualified or unqualified based on credits and grades. As to use this criteria of scholastics- it is up the the NCAA to make sure a program is on the up and up before a team should beallowed to move up. All the NCAA has to do is look at the Standardsof the instituions. For instance, UCLA and UC Berkeley are already D1A and accepted by the NCAA. UCD's requirements are either higher or stricter than these two institutions, but the University of California's requirements are already accpeted by the NCAA. So, if UC Santa Cruz was to want to go D1 in football, there is absolutely NO doubt they already meet the NCAA academic requirements. UCD is now done with the transitional period and I STILL believe it should be NO LONGER than 2 years. If someone can give me ONE good reason why it is 5 years, I'd be willing to listen. To date, no one has.

[89Hen]

Just as it was NDSU's choice to move up KNOWING the 5 year transition rule was in effect. Sucks for NDSU, but that's life. You play by the rules.....
I'm not saying NDSU is complaining or didn't know the rule, I'm saying the rule is bull****. How many players on NDSU's team were taken with less than DI academic requirements? xcoffeex :nonono2:

[89Hen]

the great difference in Academic requirement from D-II to D-I
:confused:
Division II Eligibility
NCAA Division II is a little bit more lenient in its academic requirements. A D-II qualifier is a high school graduate with at least a 2.0 core-course GPA in a curriculum of at least 13 core courses, including:


3 years of English

2 years of mathematics

2 years of natural or physical science (one year of which must be a lab course if lab courses are offered at your high school).

2 years of social science

2 additional years of either English, math, or natural or physical science.

2 additional years of academic courses in any of the above subjects or foreign language, computer science, philosophy, or comparative religion.
A qualifier must also have a combined SAT score of 820 or a score of 68 on the ACT.

A D-II partial qualifier must have graduated from high school and have either the specified minimum test score or successfully have completed 13 core courses with a 2.0 core-course GPA or higher. Division II partial qualifiers may practice with the team and receive athletic scholarships during their first year, but may not compete. After that, athletes are eligible for four more seasons of competition.

Division II nonqualifiers have either not graduated high school or have failed to meet either the GPA or the test score requirement of a qualifier. Nonqualifiers are not eligible for regular-season competition or practice during their first year and may not receive athletic scholarships as a freshmen. After their freshman year, D-II nonqualifiers are eligible for four seasons of competition.

http://www.gballmag.com/cc-scholarships2.html

C'mon guys, it's bull****.

[SunCoastBlueHen]

A D-II partial qualifier must have graduated from high school and have either the specified minimum test score or successfully have completed 13 core courses with a 2.0 core-course GPA or higher. Division II partial qualifiers may practice with the team and receive athletic scholarships during their first year, but may not compete. After that, athletes are eligible for four more seasons of competition.

Division II nonqualifiers have either not graduated high school or have failed to meet either the GPA or the test score requirement of a qualifier. Nonqualifiers are not eligible for regular-season competition or practice during their first year and may not receive athletic scholarships as a freshmen. After their freshman year, D-II nonqualifiers are eligible for four seasons of competition.

If I'm reading this correctly, a guy could be dumb as a brick and a zero student and still be eligible to play DII football as a Sophomore. I don't know how the DI standards read for comparison, but that sounds pretty darn lenient to me.

[BisonBacker]

Fact is we waited way to long. Should have made the move back in the late 70's early 80's. As much as it sucks and the academic arguement doesn't hold water it's the short sightedness of the president and AD back in the late 70's early 80's that has screwed us. Only one more year 2007 to go of this **** and we are then eligible. The ones I really feel bad for are the ones who it hurts the most. The student athletes who the NCAA is supposed to be watching out for. What a joke.

[89Hen]

If I'm reading this correctly, a guy could be dumb as a brick and a zero student and still be eligible to play DII football as a Sophomore. I don't know how the DI standards read for comparison, but that sounds pretty darn lenient to me.
They still need to pass college classes for a year. It's like a second chance for a kid. How many "qualifiers" in DI are dumb as a brick but not a zero student only because the DI school helps him through all his remedial classes. Grasping. : smh :

[SunCoastBlueHen]

They still need to pass college classes for a year. It's like a second chance for a kid. How many "qualifiers" in DI are dumb as a brick but not a zero student only because the DI school helps him through all his remedial classes. Grasping. : smh :

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a DI football player need miminum grades and minimal test scores to even be accepted into the school? It sounds like this is not the case in DII and that is a fairly significant difference IMO.

We all know that it is a common practice in all divisions to provide "remedial" classes for marginal student/athletes to keep them in the school and on the playing field. It seems to me that DII may have an advantage in that regard because it is easier to get the marginal student into the school to begin with. :twocents:

[89Hen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a DI football player need miminum grades and minimal test scores to even be accepted into the school? It sounds like this is not the case in DII and that is a fairly significant difference IMO.

Division I Eligibility
Nonqualifiers are not eligible for regular-season competition or practice during their freshman year. They may not receive athletic scholarships their first year and they are permitted only three seasons of competition.

[nlwwln]

5 year probationary period is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard. Two years would be pushing it but 5! Who the hell knows what can happen in 5 years, I know that every player from that NDSU team will be long gone and graduated. Give these guys a shot. 5 years? almost sounds like a prison sentence. Just ridiculous

[Bison05]

The problem I have with all the reasons why we cant be eligible in less than 5 years is this. If all of those reasons are valid (i.e. ineligible players, not finished with the classification, not a full DI member...) then why are our women's volleyball and wrestling teams eligible for the post-season this year? If someone can give me a satisfactory answer for this, then I'll be happy, otherwise I think its just a way for the NCAA to protect its basketball revenue, and if that is true there are a lot of others ways to go about it then by hurting the student-athletes.

[89Hen]

Bison05, the rule is crap. Those that defend it, know that to be true.

[No_Skill]

All this talk about academic requirements is High-larious. xlolx xlolx

Do you honestly believe that the lower levels have the advantage because of more lenient requirements? xidiotx

I can see it now...THE Ohio St. and Michigan coaches turnining down Heisman canditates Troy Smith and Mike Hart because of academic reasons. LMAO xlolx :rotateh: xlolx :rotateh: xlolx

The Big Boys get who the Big Boys want.

[GaSouthern]

I feel for NDSU, I wish they would get a bid for the playoffs they deserve it alot more than one of thoes #14-16 teams do!

[YoUDeeMan]

There is absolutely no good reason for such a long rtransitional period. Number 1- it is a death sentence to all teams moving up as many athletes will not sign with a team in transition as they are playoff exempt. Some student/athletes will have ABSOLUTELY 0 chance of the playoffs if they attend a transitional team- TOTALLY UNFAIR!!

Number 1 - So, SDSU, NDSU, and all the others programs are dead from this so-called death sentance? You guys are playing well for a bunch of zombies. :nod: Maybe 2008's theme should be titled "NDSU Football - Return from the Dead.

Here's a news flash for the second part: life is not fair. However, in this paticular case, you are wrong; it is fair. Everyone involved in the football program knew the rules governing the change in divisions, regardless of them being up to your snuff. So don't try to speak of it being totally unfair to the players. Unless your coaches lied to them, those student athletes knew what they were getting into when they signed up to play for the transitional schools. They should not have had any expectations that they would go to the playofffs for some part, or all, of their time at the school. Ivy League players deal with the same thing.

The Bison are having a good year. They are a good team. Are they the best in the nation? Would they win the championship? Even the teams that do make the playoffs can't say that about themselves for certain. Would USD win the playoffs? We'll never know the answers to those questions. But, at least with NDSU and other transitional teams, the players and fans should have known that from the gate.

[NorthDakotaBison]

You are a very wise chicken, Cluck U.

[AggiePride]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a DI football player need miminum grades and minimal test scores to even be accepted into the school? It sounds like this is not the case in DII and that is a fairly significant difference IMO.

We all know that it is a common practice in all divisions to provide "remedial" classes for marginal student/athletes to keep them in the school and on the playing field. It seems to me that DII may have an advantage in that regard because it is easier to get the marginal student into the school to begin with. :twocents:

xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx

Lets see some facts?

[AmsterBison]

I'd be willing to bet a couple grand that UC Davis doesn't have anybody on the football team that didn't meet DI's initial eligibility standards when they signed.

The folks saying that DII's minimum standards are almost non-existent do have a point... DII and DI used to have almost identical admission standards but the last couple years they have been going in opposite directions.

However, while NDSU is no UC Davis when it comes to initial enrollment standards for the general student body, I do know that athletes who couldn't meet NDSU's initial academic standards have gone to JUCO's and then ended up at DI-A schools. So why not "re-certify" the transitional students using the same standards that apply to JUCO transfers?

For my part, I'm not 100% sure why the NCAA member schools voted to increase the length of the provisional period. Since I don't know the reasons, it's hard to dismiss the rule out of hand.

The only thing I do know is that we at NDSU knew the rule in 2002. We knew it in 2003. We knew it in 2004. We knew it 2005. The only reason we're complaining now is because it hurts our fellas. If we had such a problem with it, we should have been making noise long before this.

[ndsu71und74]

xcoffeex As an "oldie but goodie", I would suggest that the "frustration" heading on this thread is wrong or at least is being miss-interpreted. History: In the late fifties and early sixties, it was said that the best place to be alone with a date was at Dacotah Field while the Bison attempted to play football. No team, no fans. In the mid -sixties that changed as the administration put some emphasis on sports and the result was a couple of D-II mythical championships. The seventies were again dry, although at least entertaining. Then came the eighties and the "Herd" won five national national championships, finished second in a couple of more and were ALWAYS in the playoff hunt. Fans got used to that sort of success. Then the Pres. that had come in during the late sixties and really supported sports died and was followed by two more who never did find their way to their offices. One of them hired, or retained (I can't remember which.) an AD who had been trained at "Down River U" and, IMHO, he allowed the program to deteriate. A bad head coach selection was made and once again the program went in to the can. Enter a new Pres, Joe Chapman (By way of Montana State, thank you!), who decided NDSU should move forward again, including all athletic progams. New AD was hired, new footbal coach too, move up to D-IAA, etc., with a promise that someday, we would be back. Guess what, WE DID IT SOONER THAN WE THOUGHT WE COULD! We should have moved in the early nineties when D-II started to be diluted, but we didn't for the reasons stated above, poor leadership. For most Bison fans, the "frustration" is not with the rules or any of the other teams but with ourselves, or rather the lack leadership at NDSU during most of the nineties. (Heck, we even let UND beat us regularly during that time!) We finally have a team like the ones of old and.........we can't see them play any more. (That's a sigh, not a whine.) So, to those in the play offs this year, good luck. Go out and do D-IAA proud. Show those "BSC" guys how a true national champion is selected. We hope that in the future, when we are eligible, that we will be gearing up for post season play too.

[lizrdgizrd]

The one thing NDSU won't have to put up with once they are playoff eligible is the supposed disrespect that USD is getting. Your guys have proved their skill against a good schedule. I think it's safe to say nobody doubts you're a playoff caliber team.

[No_Skill]

xcoffeex As an "oldie but goodie", I would suggest that the "frustration" heading on this thread is wrong or at least is being miss-interpreted. History: In the late fifties and early sixties, it was said that the best place to be alone with a date was at Dacotah Field while the Bison attempted to play football. No team, no fans. In the mid -sixties that changed as the administration put some emphasis on sports and the result was a couple of D-II mythical championships. The seventies were again dry, although at least entertaining. Then came the eighties and the "Herd" won five national national championships, finished second in a couple of more and were ALWAYS in the playoff hunt. Fans got used to that sort of success. Then the Pres. that had come in during the late sixties and really supported sports died and was followed by two more who never did find their way to their offices. One of them hired, or retained (I can't remember which.) an AD who had been trained at "Down River U" and, IMHO, he allowed the program to deteriate. A bad head coach selection was made and once again the program went in to the can. Enter a new Pres, Joe Chapman (By way of Montana State, thank you!), who decided NDSU should move forward again, including all athletic progams. New AD was hired, new footbal coach too, move up to D-IAA, etc., with a promise that someday, we would be back. Guess what, WE DID IT SOONER THAN WE THOUGHT WE COULD! We should have moved in the early nineties when D-II started to be diluted, but we didn't for the reasons stated above, poor leadership. For most Bison fans, the "frustration" is not with the rules or any of the other teams but with ourselves, or rather the lack leadership at NDSU during most of the nineties. (Heck, we even let UND beat us regularly during that time!) We finally have a team like the ones of old and.........we can't see them play any more. (That's a sigh, not a whine.) So, to those in the play offs this year, good luck. Go out and do D-IAA proud. Show those "BSC" guys how a true national champion is selected. We hope that in the future, when we are eligible, that we will be gearing up for post season play too.

Now that is a good post.

Oh yeah, can someone remind me, did we know the rules before we made the transition? xcoffeex

Please, stop using that argument. We have established that we knew the rules.

[lucchesicourt]

Rules CAN be changed providing people want to change them. I am a UCD alumnus and no longer have an issue of NOT being playoff elgible. This rule needs to be changed from 5 to 2-3 years before a team is playoff elgible, 5 years is too long, and the issues about academics can EASILY be satisfied to D1's requirements in 3 years for ALL institutions. Again, what possible reason can there be for a 5 year exclusion period? Don't say academics, don't say inelgible athletes (as they would be weeded out in less than a year), etc. Someone give a SOLID reason for a 5 year exemption. Anyone says it's because that is the rules has no idea about why there is such a rule, That is like saying ,you know the sky is blue because it is blue. That does not explain why it is blue.

UD, I agree that all the teams moving up knew the rules at that time. I am saying it is time to CHANGE that rule. That rule is not fair to the student/athlete today or in the year 2040?