The Fraud of Harvard "non-scholarship" football

[Pard4Life]

Read this great article awhile ago. This basically supports what some of us had said here for years and shatters the notion that Harvard football is just a glorified D3 program. Good read regardless what you think of Ivy land...

http://m.wsj.com/articles/how-harvard-became-the-harvard-of-football-1416499613?mobile=y

[MR. CHICKEN]

20282.......HMMM.....KINDAH...LIKE DUH PATRIOT......PELL GRANTS......WHEN YA'LL WERE NON-SKOLLED....xnodxxrolleyesxxnodx..AWQ!

[chattanoogamocs]

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

[NY Crusader 2010]

Read this great article awhile ago. This basically supports what some of us had said here for years and shatters the notion that Harvard football is just a glorified D3 program. Good read regardless what you think of Ivy land...

http://m.wsj.com/articles/how-harvard-became-the-harvard-of-football-1416499613?mobile=y

It's a shame that the Ivy football brand gets almost zero respect outside of knowledgeable FCS followers in the Ivy/PL/CAA footprint. The best comparison to what Harvard would be if they ever stepped outside the Ivy/PL/Pioneer "bubble" is probably William & Mary. The third place team in the Ivy beat an FBS this year, not terribly shabby.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If like five poll voters change their minds about the quality of the TOP of the Ivy League the article would have been worth it.

[citdog]

It's a shame that the Ivy football brand gets almost zero respect outside of knowledgeable FCS followers in the Ivy/PL/CAA footprint. The best comparison to what Harvard would be if they ever stepped outside the Ivy/PL/Pioneer "bubble" is probably William & Mary. The third place team in the Ivy beat an FBS this year, not terribly shabby.

I saw all I needed to see @ Princeton. ivy football is garbage and you yankees know it but won't admit it. that fbs team they beat was a HORRIBLE hudson high team.

[citdog]

If like five poll voters change their minds about the quality of the TOP of the Ivy League the article would have been worth it.

I vote and I KNOW. It's TERRIBLE football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I vote and I KNOW. It's TERRIBLE football.

Make that six voters.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I saw all I needed to see @ Princeton. ivy football is garbage and you yankees know it but won't admit it. that fbs team they beat was a HORRIBLE hudson high team.

Those Princeton teams you beat where 4-6 both years. The Citadel won 34-27 the first year and 38-7 in 2009. To be fair Columbia, yes Columbia, beat Princeton 38-0, Harvard 37-3 and Penn 42-7 year The Citadel won by 31....

[citdog]

Those Princeton teams you beat where 4-6 both years. The Citadel won 34-27 the first year and 38-7 in 2009. To be fair Columbia, yes Columbia, beat Princeton 38-0, Harvard 37-3 and Penn 42-7 year The Citadel won by 31....

Could have been 81. I am beginning to think that none of y'all even know what a good football team looks like.

[bonarae]

It's a shame that the Ivy football brand gets almost zero respect outside of knowledgeable FCS followers in the Ivy/PL/CAA footprint. The best comparison to what Harvard would be if they ever stepped outside the Ivy/PL/Pioneer "bubble" is probably William & Mary. The third place team in the Ivy beat an FBS this year, not terribly shabby.

Hmm, what to think of this?

As a fan switching to ETSU, in a completely different landscape, next year, I am feeling disappointed in the Ivies' declining quality year after year by playing the wrong kind of competition. To find more quality football being played, you really have to go south and west. It's a different world in football now. xsmhx xbawlingx

Why W&M? xchinscratchx

[Cleets]

Could have been 81. I am beginning to think that none of y'all even know what a good football team looks like.

The bottom of the Southern and the bottom of the Ivy are identically bad (just plain old bad)
The top of the Southern vs. the Top of the Ivy would usually be a bit of a mis-match

But all in all the Southern is a shadow of its former self - I think we all see that - so your argument loses a bit of steam based on the present condition of the Southern Conference

[citdog]

The bottom of the Southern and the bottom of the Ivy are identically bad (just plain old bad)
The top of the Southern vs. the Top of the Ivy would usually be a bit of a mis-match

But all in all the Southern is a shadow of its former self - I think we all see that - so your argument loses a bit of steam based on the present condition of the Southern Conference


Remember that show with Gary Coleman and Todd Bridges? That.

Mercer or VMI would whip Columbia.

The Southern Conference will be a 3 bid league again in less than 3 seasons.

[Ivytalk]

So it took Pard4Life over two weeks to dig up this pre-Yale game article with no new information in it? Astounding. So Harvard is rich enough to offer generous financial aid for just about everyone? Who knew?xcoffeex

And, of course, citdog (holding rejection slips from all three major service academies, probably) chimes in with his usual bleating about the quality of Ivy football. That old Citadel road trip to Princeton can't have been wasted: the knobs probably made some good connections for chauffeuring and butlering jobs after graduation.

[citdog]

So it took Pard4Life over two weeks to dig up this pre-Yale game article with no new information in it? Astounding. So Harvard is rich enough to offer generous financial aid for just about everyone? Who knew?xcoffeex

And, of course, citdog (holding rejection slips from all three major service academies, probably) chimes in with his usual bleating about the quality of Ivy football. That old Citadel road trip to Princeton can't have been wasted: the knobs probably made some good connections for chauffeuring and butlering jobs after graduation.

talk about irony! you chastise the op for his article which you say "has no new info in it" and then you have the tired old "hudson high reject" bit followed by the always good for a laugh if it was 1852 bellhop hack job. you are not even fit to insult me. try again you unoriginal bastard. try AGAIN

[OL FU]

Hmm, what to think of this?

As a fan switching to ETSU, in a completely different landscape, next year, I am feeling disappointed in the Ivies' declining quality year after year by playing the wrong kind of competition. To find more quality football being played, you really have to go south and west. It's a different world in football now. xsmhx xbawlingx

Why W&M? xchinscratchx

I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't doubt that The Ivies are competitive and Harvard specifically, I just don't have a way to make the comparisons to convince myself. We all face the need or requirements to play locally. So you could say the SoCon doesn't prove itself by playing the Big South (of course this year it would have been the other way around). But then we go to the playoffs where the regional comparisons go away (at least after the first couple of rounds) and you can actually see how teams do against national competition. Since it is fairly clear the Ivies are not going to participate, one should not complain when their football prowess is questioned.

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The bottom of the Southern and the bottom of the Ivy are identically bad (just plain old bad)
The top of the Southern vs. the Top of the Ivy would usually be a bit of a mis-match

But all in all the Southern is a shadow of its former self - I think we all see that - so your argument loses a bit of steam based on the present condition of the Southern Conference

You should stick to politics. You're better at that:D

[Go Green]

, I am feeling disappointed in the Ivies' declining quality year after year by playing the wrong kind of competition.

If anyone bears responsibility for this, its Harvard. They were the first of the Ivies to really step down on the scheduling.

(Columbia arguably picked up PFL teams around the same time--but unlike Harvard, it was appropriate competition for them).

[Ivytalk]

talk about irony! you chastise the op for his article which you say "has no new info in it" and then you have the tired old "hudson high reject" bit followed by the always good for a laugh if it was 1852 bellhop hack job. you are not even fit to insult me. try again you unoriginal bastard. try AGAIN

Even Delaware River catfish put up a better fight than you, Beauregard. Original or not, you took the bait. Never fails. So how's the merchant marine workin' out for ya?

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If anyone bears responsibility for this, its Harvard. They were the first of the Ivies to really step down on the scheduling.

(Columbia arguably picked up PFL teams around the same time--but unlike Harvard, it was appropriate competition for them).

True enough.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I bet everyone of their FB players have a "full ride" academic scholarship.

Until the Ivies play better OOC competition and participate in the FCS playoffs, they are nothing more than a glorified D3 football league. Key word is football. World class academics but on the football field.......no!

[TheRevSFA]

The Ivy League had football? Go on...

[kalm]

The Ivy League had football? Go on...

This. They could be on par with the MVFC and it wouldn't matter.

Irrelevant, intramurals.

[Go Green]

that fbs team they beat was a HORRIBLE hudson high team.

.... who also trashed the Patriot League champion.

[FormerPokeCenter]

From a purely academic standpoint, if the Ivies are populated with the best and the brightest, shouldn't we at least be seeing some offensive innovation coming out of that league?

I mean, okay, so academics means that they're not, usually, going to get the exceptional athletes. Shouldn't they still be getting athletes who are smart enough to make complicated offenses or defenses work or to read complicated offenses and defenses?

Look at the service academies and Georgia Tech and even Georgia Southern using a triple option, with cut off blocking to take advantage of their smaller and quicker personnel.

Shouldn't the incredibly intelligent folks in the Ivies be able to innovate something similar to stay relevant?

You'd think they'd be able to really analyze the downs and distances and the high percentage plays, defensive tendencies, etc.

I would expect it to be a case of intellectual advantage over brute force...

[kalm]

From a purely academic standpoint, if the Ivies are populated with the best and the brightest, shouldn't we at least be seeing some offensive innovation coming out of that league?

I mean, okay, so academics means that they're not, usually, going to get the exceptional athletes. Shouldn't they still be getting athletes who are smart enough to make complicated offenses or defenses work or to read complicated offenses and defenses?

Look at the service academies and Georgia Tech and even Georgia Southern using a triple option, with cut off blocking to take advantage of their smaller and quicker personnel.


Shouldn't the incredibly intelligent folks in the Ivies be able to innovate something similar to stay relevant?

He'll of a point, FPC. Over-rated intelligence...

[Sandlapper Spike]

Those Princeton teams you beat where 4-6 both years. The Citadel won 34-27 the first year and 38-7 in 2009. To be fair Columbia, yes Columbia, beat Princeton 38-0, Harvard 37-3 and Penn 42-7 year The Citadel won by 31....

The score of the first game was 37-24.

I went to both games. The Citadel wasn't all that great either season either (winning just four games in each campaign), and yet was still clearly the better team.

[OL FU]

When you have an $8billion endowment, innovation is not required.xthumbsupx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Shouldn't the incredibly intelligent folks in the Ivies be able to innovate something similar to stay relevant?

You say for them to be smart and innovative about play on the field, but they're not even bright enough to figure out that the same "postseason class issues" that don't apply to Ivy League lacrosse champions also wouldn't apply to the Ivy League football champions either.

The "innovation" to compete in the FCS playoffs, adopt an 11/12 game schedule would do more to make the Ivy League relevant than any new formations.

[FormerPokeCenter]

When you have an $8billion endowment, innovation is not required.xthumbsupx

So what you're saying is that it's okay to talk **** on a college football message board, but we shouldn't forget who signs the checks that enable our livelihoods? ;)

[NoDak 4 Ever]

You say for them to be smart and innovative about play on the field, but they're not even bright enough to figure out that the same "postseason class issues" that don't apply to Ivy League lacrosse champions also wouldn't apply to the Ivy League football champions either.

The "innovation" to compete in the FCS playoffs, adopt an 11/12 game schedule would do more to make the Ivy League relevant than any new formations.

It's phony elitism to be sure. It's all a bunch of puffery. Of course they are the most academically elite but like the greedy bastards they are, they need to have it all. They cannot play second banana to the hoi polloi so they stay in their bubble. I doubt if they will ever deign to mix with the commoners.

[344Johnson]

I bet everyone of their FB players have a "full ride" academic scholarship.

Until the Ivies play better OOC competition and participate in the FCS playoffs, they are nothing more than a glorified D3 football league. Key word is football. World class academics but on the football field.......no!

Has NDSU ever went against them to get a recruit? If so, have we gotten a single one of them?

They are division one. The day they come out of their shell is the day the rest of the FCS puckers up a bit. If they want to have elited football teams, they will.

No kid with half a brain is turning down an education from those schools. Probably doesn't hurt Harvard that it's not overly surprising to see their alums playing on Sundays.

[Go Green]

if the Ivies are populated with the best and the brightest, shouldn't we at least be seeing some offensive innovation coming out of that league?



Either you're one hell of a tough guy to impress, or you weren't paying attention to Princeton's offense last year.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Admittedly, I wasn't paying attention...

But, you read about the Air Raid, the Spread, the West Coast offense....

I mean, aside from Yalie Walter Camp's forward pass, when's the last time there was some innovation coming out of the ivies??

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Has NDSU ever went against them to get a recruit? If so, have we gotten a single one of them?

They are division one. The day they come out of their shell is the day the rest of the FCS puckers up a bit. If they want to have elited football teams, they will.

No kid with half a brain is turning down an education from those schools. Probably doesn't hurt Harvard that it's not overly surprising to see their alums playing on Sundays.
But they won't. It will not be a gentle transition and they cannot stand to have any shine come off them ever.

One of the best players we have, John Crockett, struggled to get academically eligible for NDSU. He's one of my favorite guys of all time.

Your phony elitism is no better than theirs.

[bluehenbillk]

If the Ivy League doesn't want to participate in postseason football, I don't care to recognize Ivy League football.

[crimsonfan]

Admittedly, I wasn't paying attention...

But, you read about the Air Raid, the Spread, the West Coast offense....

I mean, aside from Yalie Walter Camp's forward pass, when's the last time there was some innovation coming out of the ivies??


Excuse me, but it was Harvard (through Teddy Roosevelt) who pushed for the forward pass. Walter Camp was firmly opposed.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Did Water Camp throw the first forward pass in 1876 in the Harvard/Yale tilt, or did he not?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Did Water Camp throw the first forward pass in 1876 in the Harvard/Yale tilt, or did he not?

He did not. The forward pass wasn't even legal until 1905, and at that point a ton of different teams experimented with it. Howard "Bosey" Reiter, a future Lehigh athletics director, invented the modern forward pass (overhand throw) as football head coach at Wesleyan.

Walter Camp, however, invented many of the standardized rules of football (100 yard fields, 6 points for TD, etc.) and his rules committee was the de facto rule-making body for football before the NCAA came into existence.

[FormerPokeCenter]

I didn't ask if it was LEGAL to do so when he did it, only whether or not he threw a forward pass in the Yale Harvard game....

This guy gets credit for the first legal forward pass....but I don't think he played for Lee High or Wesleyan...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/RobinsonThrowing.jpg/180px-RobinsonThrowing.jpg

[Go Green]

Admittedly, I wasn't paying attention...

But, you read about the Air Raid, the Spread, the West Coast offense....

I mean, aside from Yalie Walter Camp's forward pass, when's the last time there was some innovation coming out of the ivies??

Joe Restic's Harvard teams ran the multiflex, which was a forerunner for the triple option.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1980/10/10/what-does-the-multiflex-mean-pthe/

I'm not saying that they invented it, but Brown's mid-1990s to mid-2000s teams ran the spread very effectively and gained tons of offense. Similarly, Bob Blackman's Dartmouth teams were innovative for trick plays in an era where that was frowned upon.

We will see if Princeton's multiple quarterback approach takes off. Worked great in 2013 when they were healthy. Only Dartmouth (aided by a New Hampshire snowstorm) slowed it down. But it didn't work as well in 2014 when they had numerous injuries. Razzle dazzle doesn't work as well when you aren't capable of getting any more than two yards by running it up the middle.

http://www.nj.com/collegefootball/index.ssf/2013/11/princeton_uses_three_qb_format.html

[FormerPokeCenter]

I like it! But it's not exactly new. We've been playing 3 QBs in the backfield on the flag football fields of Louisiana for the last 30 years.

It's called the New Orleans Offense ;)

In all seriousness, though, thanks for posting that. I'm glad to see it on the college fields...

AGS can often be educational !

[344Johnson]

But they won't. It will not be a gentle transition and they cannot stand to have any shine come off them ever.

One of the best players we have, John Crockett, struggled to get academically eligible for NDSU. He's one of my favorite guys of all time.

Your phony elitism is no better than theirs.

They won't change because they don't want to. Appears they have football exclusively because they like to play against one another.

You frown upon the idea if elitism? Some schools are better than others.

I have two cousins at ivy schools. Neither of them are arrogant or anything, just incredibly smart.

[DFW HOYA]

If the Ivy League doesn't want to participate in postseason football, I don't care to recognize Ivy League football.

Notre Dame did not play a single postseason football game from 1925 until 1970. It didn't matter.

[Cleets]

I bet everyone of their FB players have a "full ride" academic scholarship.

Until the Ivies play better OOC competition and participate in the FCS playoffs, they are nothing more than a glorified D3 football league. Key word is football. World class academics but on the football field.......no!


Be careful...
Want to know why Boise State couldn't join the PAC10?
Because of their low Academic standards

You want to know why NDSU won't be able to join an FBS conference..?
(I'll give you two guesses)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I didn't ask if it was LEGAL to do so when he did it, only whether or not he threw a forward pass in the Yale Harvard game....

This guy gets credit for the first legal forward pass....but I don't think he played for Lee High or Wesleyan...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/RobinsonThrowing.jpg/180px-RobinsonThrowing.jpg

There is some "controversy" as to who actually threw the first pass. Some claim to have done it before 1905 illegally and got away with it. Your guy was the lucky QB who was a small-college guy who started the first offensive series in the first small-college game of the season. He almost certainly passed the ball as a basketball player perfoms a chest pass, contrary to the picture, and if the pass was incomplete, it was a turnover and the other team got the ball.

I forget who claims to be the first "major college" forward pass, but it probably was a guy from Harvard or Yale.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Well, Walter Camp played for Yale and apparently did it in 1876....I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that the records are somewhat suspect if you go back any earlier...

[NoDak 4 Ever]

There is some "controversy" as to who actually threw the first pass. Some claim to have done it before 1905 illegally and got away with it. Your guy was the lucky QB who was a small-college guy who started the first offensive series in the first small-college game of the season. He almost certainly passed the ball as a basketball player perfoms a chest pass, contrary to the picture, and if the pass was incomplete, it was a turnover and the other team got the ball.

I forget who claims to be the first "major college" forward pass, but it probably was a guy from Harvard or Yale.

There's a lot of mixed reporting on the subject. The gentleman in the picture is Brad Robinson of St. Louis University who was coached by Eddie Cochems, considered by some to be the "father of the forward pass".

Cochems was from Wisconsin and incidentally spent 2 years at the North Dakota Agricultural College as head coach from 1902-1903.

[bulldog10jw]

Walter Camp, however, invented many of the standardized rules of football (100 yard fields, 6 points for TD, etc.) and his rules committee was the de facto rule-making body for football before the NCAA came into existence.

The good and the not so good

http://www.courant.com/opinion/op-ed/hc-op-commentary-goldstein-yales-walter-camp-bent--20140314-story.html

Camp's innovative rules established the line of scrimmage in 1880, transforming the rugby style of football into a distinctively American game. A few years later, he invented the series of downs to gain a set number of yards, tackling below the waist and the modern scoring system — as well as (with sportswriter Caspar Whitney), the All-America team.

[Ivytalk]

Joe Restic's Harvard teams ran the multiflex, which was a forerunner for the triple option.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1980/10/10/what-does-the-multiflex-mean-pthe/

I'm not saying that they invented it, but Brown's mid-1990s to mid-2000s teams ran the spread very effectively and gained tons of offense. Similarly, Bob Blackman's Dartmouth teams were innovative for trick plays in an era where that was frowned upon.

We will see if Princeton's multiple quarterback approach takes off. Worked great in 2013 when they were healthy. Only Dartmouth (aided by a New Hampshire snowstorm) slowed it down. But it didn't work as well in 2014 when they had numerous injuries. Razzle dazzle doesn't work as well when you aren't capable of getting any more than two yards by running it up the middle.

http://www.nj.com/collegefootball/index.ssf/2013/11/princeton_uses_three_qb_format.html

Ah, Joe Restic's "multiflex"! It was complicated, all right: Harvard always led the league in procedural penalties!xnodx

[Ivytalk]

It's phony elitism to be sure. It's all a bunch of puffery. Of course they are the most academically elite but like the greedy bastards they are, they need to have it all. They cannot play second banana to the hoi polloi so they stay in their bubble. I doubt if they will ever deign to mix with the commoners.


Like you?xrolleyesx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's what also happened: The schools devised a new organization called the Intercollegiate Athletic Association of the United States, which soon became the National Collegiate Athletic Association, the forerunner of today's NCAA. Then as now, the NCAA had one overriding purpose: to protect itself and the organization of college athletics from public scrutiny. Secondarily, while shamelessly promoting the ideology of amateurism and the fiction of "student-athletes" at top-flight schools, the NCAA enriches itself, key conferences and select programs.

This one paragraph is so incredibly outlandish, and so incorrect, it takes the rest of the article down with it.

Seriously, does every article about college football have to be a veiled ad hominem threat to the current NCAA?

[Sader87]

Harvard (and both Dartmouth and Yale) had good teams this year. Would they beat any of the remaining 8 teams in the playoffs? Most times probably not but they wouldn't be blown out by all 8 either.

In general, they are living too much in a bubble. They should add an 11th game and particularly the "haves of the haves" of the IL should challenge themselves a bit more in their OOC scheduling.

As for the playoffs, as seen in another thread here, I'm of the belief that they really aren't that off-base in not participating in them due to the drawn out process of the playoff system.

Having played both this year....I would say Harvard and Fordham were pretty close overall this year.

[Go Green]

Ah, Joe Restic's "multiflex"! It was complicated, all right: Harvard always led the league in procedural penalties!xnodx

When he had the right personnel, the multiflex was unstoppable.

When he didn't, he got stuff like this:

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/16/sports/sports-people-rebellion-at-harvard.html

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1982/5/19/courage-and-the-restic-letters-ptheyve/

:)

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Like you?xrolleyesx

Of course, I'm as common as they come.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Be careful...
Want to know why Boise State couldn't join the PAC10?
Because of their low Academic standards

You want to know why NDSU won't be able to join an FBS conference..?
(I'll give you two guesses)


Right now FBS is not on the radar for NDSU.

I did fairly well at NDSU and have become successful in my career thanks to that education......next.....

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Has NDSU ever went against them to get a recruit? If so, have we gotten a single one of them?

They are division one. The day they come out of their shell is the day the rest of the FCS puckers up a bit. If they want to have elited football teams, they will.

No kid with half a brain is turning down an education from those schools. Probably doesn't hurt Harvard that it's not overly surprising to see their alums playing on Sundays.



Yawn.....xrolleyesx

[TheRevSFA]

I'm still shocked that Harvard plays football. I figured after they saw Ryan Fitzpatrick's nfl beard they realize their mistake and folded

[344Johnson]

Of course, I'm as common as they come.

So are the two family members* of mine who attend said universities.

No need to hate on the Ivy League. Can't imagine they have ever done anything to bother you.


*if we are talking what "class" they come from.

[Cleets]

I'm still shocked that Harvard plays football. I figured after they saw Ryan Fitzpatrick's nfl beard they realize their mistake and folded

So SFA has who..? Trotter in the NFL?

[bonarae]

The "innovation" to compete in the FCS playoffs, adopt an 11/12 game schedule would do more to make the Ivy League relevant than any new formations.

Who's to blame for the current mess now? The Presidents of years ago and of today? xsmhx

It is one reason why I'm rooting for Chicago (D-III)... xwhistlex


Until the Ivies play better OOC competition and participate in the FCS playoffs, they are nothing more than a glorified D3 football league. Key word is football. World class academics but on the football field.......no!

OK, got it. Lamar and ETSU may have restarted their programs but their playoff chances are miles better than the Ivies. Even Chicago's is, too, when their products on the field are great.


If the Ivy League doesn't want to participate in postseason football, I don't care to recognize Ivy League football.

Hmm, I am facing a dilemma right now - if I jump ship to ETSU right now, at this very moment, should I focus more on SoCon threads and Chatty in the playoffs? That's a bit too late for me. So I'll jump ship by the spring at least. But the Ivies are a special case for me though.


They won't change because they don't want to. Appears they have football exclusively because they like to play against one another.

Another thing that should go away for Ivy football to progress is the scrimmages between themselves.


In general, they are living too much in a bubble. They should add an 11th game and particularly the "haves of the haves" of the IL should challenge themselves a bit more in their OOC scheduling.

As for the playoffs, as seen in another thread here, I'm of the belief that they really aren't that off-base in not participating in them due to the drawn out process of the playoff system.

11th game, they should have. Playoff participation, it should be also but not higher priority.


It's phony elitism to be sure. It's all a bunch of puffery. Of course they are the most academically elite but like the greedy bastards they are, they need to have it all. They cannot play second banana to the hoi polloi so they stay in their bubble. I doubt if they will ever deign to mix with the commoners.

Chicago required 30 years of no football and a drop in division in order to mix with the commoners of D-III; they're happy where they are now. So is Johns Hopkins, who has no plans to move up even though they are grandfathered in lacrosse (B1G lacrosse is their current conference affiliation.) Why not the Ivies? I should ask why. Dayton Rule in play for the Ivies? I think.

[TheRevSFA]

So SFA has who..? Trotter in the NFL?

Trotter, Larry centers, Willie Jefferson (was) josh aubrey,

i think Wes Pate was but I could be wrong

[TheRevSFA]

Oh I guess we can count bum Phillips too if you want to go all historic

[Ivytalk]

When he had the right personnel, the multiflex was unstoppable.

When he didn't, he got stuff like this:

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/16/sports/sports-people-rebellion-at-harvard.html

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1982/5/19/courage-and-the-restic-letters-ptheyve/

:)

I never thought much of Restic as a game-day coach. He won a few titles, but he was inconsistent and aloof.

[NY Crusader 2010]

that fbs team they beat was a HORRIBLE hudson high team.

Yea, I'm sure The Citadel would've hung 70 on them...

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I saw all I needed to see @ Princeton.

Nobody mentioned Princeton.

[HoyaMetanoia]

What's the rationale behind the late season start dates at the Ivies?

[citdog]

Yea, I'm sure The Citadel would've hung 70 on them...

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Nobody mentioned Princeton.

Well we will never know. After giving army their worst defeat since Cold Harbor they will no longer schedule us. They schedule lesser opponents like fordham and yale instead.

[Cleets]

Well we will never know. After giving army their worst defeat since Cold Harbor they will no longer schedule us. They schedule lesser opponents like fordham and yale instead.

You're still mad because the Princeton Band strolled out and played Dixie on kazoos or some damn thing...
Which is hilarious because only a bunch of Cadets could take the Princeton band Seriously

Nobody takes them seriously
Especially themselves

Its like taking Foster Brooks seriously
Do you think the Boy Scouts were offended by this..?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8na9wwjFy2I

[citdog]

You're still mad because the Princeton Band strolled out and played Dixie on kazoos or some damn thing...
Which is hilarious because only a bunch of Cadets could take the Princeton band Seriously

Nobody takes them seriously
Especially themselves

Its like taking Foster Brooks seriously
Do you think the Boy Scouts were offended by this..?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8na9wwjFy2I

they made amends......



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUfXFbekqLY

1 min mark

[bulldog10jw]

I never thought much of Restic as a game-day coach. He won a few titles, but he was inconsistent and aloof.

Much like Cozza, although Cozza was not aloof. Carm was a great recruiter, not such a good game day coach. Yale lost several games they never should have lost in the Cozza years.

[Go Green]

What's the rationale behind the late season start dates at the Ivies?

10 games with no bye and a desire to finish during rivalry week (or what used to be rivalry week).

[DFW HOYA]

10 games with no bye and a desire to finish during rivalry week (or what used to be rivalry week).

Rivalry week in the Ivy is a lot like Rivalry Week in the PL: One that matters to the league, and a weak rotation of all the rest.

[Go Green]

I never thought much of Restic as a game-day coach. He won a few titles, but he was inconsistent and aloof.

Were you around for the Player Revolt of 1982?

Interesting that he survived that when the Columbia coach didn't last week.

[Go Green]

Much like Cozza, although Cozza was not aloof. Carm was a great recruiter, not such a good game day coach. Yale lost several games they never should have lost in the Cozza years.

Upsets happen. Any Given Saturday and all that...

Pete Carroll's USC teams were notorious for absolutely demolishing top 10 opponents, yet losing to teams when they were 20+ point favorites.

Does that make him a bad game day coach?

[Pard4Life]

It's phony elitism to be sure. It's all a bunch of puffery. Of course they are the most academically elite but like the greedy bastards they are, they need to have it all. They cannot play second banana to the hoi polloi so they stay in their bubble. I doubt if they will ever deign to mix with the commoners.

No, the Ivy 'stay away' from the rest of the FCS because it is not the highest level of competition... it does not matter who the competition is, just the level.

For example, Princeton has no problem playing Incarnate Word in men's basketball (last month) and Harvard hockey has no problem playing Michigan Tech or Merrimack. It's at the highest level of their respective sports.

[Pard4Life]

From a purely academic standpoint, if the Ivies are populated with the best and the brightest, shouldn't we at least be seeing some offensive innovation coming out of that league?

I mean, okay, so academics means that they're not, usually, going to get the exceptional athletes. Shouldn't they still be getting athletes who are smart enough to make complicated offenses or defenses work or to read complicated offenses and defenses?

Look at the service academies and Georgia Tech and even Georgia Southern using a triple option, with cut off blocking to take advantage of their smaller and quicker personnel.

Shouldn't the incredibly intelligent folks in the Ivies be able to innovate something similar to stay relevant?

You'd think they'd be able to really analyze the downs and distances and the high percentage plays, defensive tendencies, etc.

I would expect it to be a case of intellectual advantage over brute force...

I think you are missing the point as to why innovation occurs in the first place.

Ivy football has no incentive to innovate. The intelligence of the players is nearly irrelevant. Innovation occurs because you are in heated competition with someone else, or you are at a significant disadvantage against a competitor. Think the Tampa Bay Rays, Oakland As or countless examples in the business world. Who is Ivy football competing against? Themselves. Each school knows what the other is going to do, and it comes down to personnel, talent, injuries etc. If anyone had incentive to innovate, it would be Columbia... then again, you actually need football players to run a scheme.

[Pard4Life]

So it took Pard4Life over two weeks to dig up this pre-Yale game article with no new information in it? Astounding. So Harvard is rich enough to offer generous financial aid for just about everyone? Who knew?xcoffeex

And, of course, citdog (holding rejection slips from all three major service academies, probably) chimes in with his usual bleating about the quality of Ivy football. That old Citadel road trip to Princeton can't have been wasted: the knobs probably made some good connections for chauffeuring and butlering jobs after graduation.

Ha, I read it the day it was published but just forgot about it. I just think it's a good piece to finally show people here what the real situation is... but people are going to believe what they want... facts are merely just "opinions" to some.

Also, I said it's a 'fraud' because the author finally reveals the truth... it's non-scholarship for the most part in name only... so many sportswriters, fans etc. say the Ivy is 'non-schollie' and doing it the right way, which is BS. Also, Harvard HC Murphy complained about having to play scholarship PL teams, saying the balance would be tipped, and used it was a reason to not schedule PL team. It's a joke.

[344Johnson]

I think you are missing the point as to why innovation occurs in the first place.

Ivy football has no incentive to innovate. The intelligence of the players is nearly irrelevant. Innovation occurs because you are in heated competition with someone else, or you are at a significant disadvantage against a competitor. Think the Tampa Bay Rays, Oakland As or countless examples in the business world. Who is Ivy football competing against? Themselves. Each school knows what the other is going to do, and it comes down to personnel, talent, injuries etc. If anyone had incentive to innovate, it would be Columbia... then again, you actually need football players to run a scheme.

I'm going to take a lesson from Robert McNamara's Fog of War.

Empathize with your enemy. This is something the anti-Ivy crowd should consider doing. The Ivy League has football so that they can play against one another. They have no desire to do otherwise.

Anyone bitter about that should probably realize that being bitter or crabby that they don't want to be in the playoffs is like the the UN getting mad at Switzerland for just hanging out in the Alps.

[bulldog10jw]

Upsets happen. Any Given Saturday and all that...

Pete Carroll's USC teams were notorious for absolutely demolishing top 10 opponents, yet losing to teams when they were 20+ point favorites.

Does that make him a bad game day coach?

Yes

[Daytripper]

Upsets happen. Any Given Saturday and all that...

Pete Carroll's USC teams were notorious for absolutely demolishing top 10 opponents, yet losing to teams when they were 20+ point favorites.

Does that make him a bad game day coach?
On certain days, yes.

[Bill]

Upsets happen. Any Given Saturday and all that...

Pete Carroll's USC teams were notorious for absolutely demolishing top 10 opponents, yet losing to teams when they were 20+ point favorites.

Does that make him a bad game day coach?

Only when his teams lose:D

[bonarae]

No, the Ivy 'stay away' from the rest of the FCS because it is not the highest level of competition... it does not matter who the competition is, just the level.

I agree, but remember the Ivies were removed by the highest football subdivision by force. xsmhx


I think you are missing the point as to why innovation occurs in the first place.

Ivy football has no incentive to innovate. The intelligence of the players is nearly irrelevant. Innovation occurs because you are in heated competition with someone else, or you are at a significant disadvantage against a competitor. Think the Tampa Bay Rays, Oakland As or countless examples in the business world. Who is Ivy football competing against? Themselves. Each school knows what the other is going to do, and it comes down to personnel, talent, injuries etc. If anyone had incentive to innovate, it would be Columbia... then again, you actually need football players to run a scheme.

Innovate? What else in football should we be finding new ways now? xchinscratchx I think we have already reached the climax of innovation in football.

[UAalum72]

I agree, but remember the Ivies were removed by the highest football subdivision by force.
By "force" you mean they didn't meet the requirements as written. And HYPP probably could have stayed I-A but would've had to break up the league to do it.

Anyway the purpose of the formation of the Ivy League was to avoid the arms race and corruption of big-time football. They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. At least the arms race part.

[bonarae]

Anyway the purpose of the formation of the Ivy League was to avoid the arms race and corruption of big-time football. They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. At least the arms race part.

At least we have to define the history of Ivy football by dividing it into two parts: relevance before WWII and irrelevance after that.

What is the "arms race" of college football?

[UAalum72]

What is the "arms race" of college football?
Really?

OK, increasing budgets, spending on facilities, race to the bottom of the education pool if there's a better player down there, bowl games during exams, all the things the IL says they won't do to be at the top of the college football. Most of these don't apply to FCS, or to a much lesser degree than FBS. It's the difference between competing at the top in hockey or lacrosse compared to football.

[bonarae]

It's the difference between competing at the top in hockey or lacrosse compared to football.

That's why I'm not really satisfied with Ivy football these days, they always come up short of their own goals. Jumping ship to a scholly team or dual-rooting Harvard with a D-III are my only solutions.

[Go...gate]

No, the Ivy 'stay away' from the rest of the FCS because it is not the highest level of competition... it does not matter who the competition is, just the level.

For example, Princeton has no problem playing Incarnate Word in men's basketball (last month) and Harvard hockey has no problem playing Michigan Tech or Merrimack. It's at the highest level of their respective sports.

Incarnate Word looks pretty good - they beat Nebraska earlier this evening.

[Go...gate]

By "force" you mean they didn't meet the requirements as written. And HYPP probably could have stayed I-A but would've had to break up the league to do it.

Anyway the purpose of the formation of the Ivy League was to avoid the arms race and corruption of big-time football. They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. At least the arms race part.

It appears that the Patriot League is morphing into an Ivy "enemy" merely because Patriot schools essentially decided to break from the Ivy, call a spade a spade and call their equivalency aid for athletes "scholarships".